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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-05-20

---Logopened Fri May 20 00:00:56 2011
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02:33<@planetmaker>g'morning
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02:45<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: is it auto-renew or auto-replace that would need to be taught to handle upgraded vehicles (same ID)?
02:46<LordAro>moin
02:53<@peter1138>auto-renew, for same ID
02:55<andythenorth>so lets say vehicle ID 01h has models A and B
02:55<andythenorth>model B becomes available, it's faster, better stronger
02:55<andythenorth>what next?
02:56<andythenorth>how does the player choose to replace all A model with B model?
03:02<@peter1138>they can't
03:02<@peter1138>it'll happen if the vehicle gets autorenewed
03:03<andythenorth>yarp
03:03<andythenorth>well that already works :)
03:04<@Terkhen>good morning
03:04<@peter1138>so what's the issue? heh
03:04<andythenorth>hi Terkhen
03:08<andythenorth>peter1138: the issue is that Eddi|zuHause thinks that upgrading vehicles is annoying (same ID, new stats)
03:08<andythenorth>because the older ones can't be auto-replaced to new
03:11<@Terkhen>how is that handled now? if an old vehicle goes to a depot it gets the stats of the new model?
03:11<andythenorth>for auto-renew yes
03:11<@planetmaker>it's something which can't be forced. It only will happen, if the vehicle (automatically) replaces itself by a new version
03:11<andythenorth>for auto-replace - not possible
03:11<@planetmaker>i.e. if it's too old
03:11*andythenorth suggested a new cb, identifying vehicle models
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03:12<andythenorth>but that would complexify auto-replace somewhat :P
03:12<andythenorth>ho pikka
03:12<andythenorth>it's all pikka's fault anyway :D
03:12<@planetmaker>autoreplace / autorenew rather could be somewhat unified. It's very similar anyway
03:13<@planetmaker>but that's a boring task, I heart
03:13<andythenorth>"autoreplace if reliability is <n"
03:13<andythenorth>would be sometimes helpful
03:13<pikka>auto remove pootis
03:14<andythenorth>pikka: upgrading vehicle stats over time - does UKRS 2 do that? or just NARS 2?
03:14<pikka>just "if old" would do me
03:14<pikka>no ukrs2 I can think of
03:14<@planetmaker>[09:13] andythenorth "autoreplace if reliability is <n" <-- yes, that often would suffice
03:15<pikka>just nars (and av8)
03:15<andythenorth>av8 does it?
03:15<andythenorth>I missed that :)
03:15<andythenorth>HEQS does it
03:15<andythenorth>I think the truck set I'm starting will do it
03:15<andythenorth>can't see another way to avoid spamming buy menu
03:18<pikka>Andy; yep, av8 has 2 generations of several aircraft
03:19<pikka>and 3 Boeing 737s
03:20<andythenorth>ok good
03:20<andythenorth>that means you didn't decide the idea sucks :)
03:20<andythenorth>might use it in FISH as well, not sure
03:20<pikka>its a good idea only if theres no reason the player would want the older model
03:21*pikka has a bus to drive
03:21<andythenorth>hoo
03:21<pikka>later chaps
03:21<andythenorth>bye
03:25<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: how many models do you think you need?!?
03:31<Eddi|zuHause>gtg
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03:34<@peter1138>andythenorth, the problem with doing it with a callback is you have to check the callback "all the time"
03:35<@peter1138>and i say, if the models actually have better specs, you should be using different IDs anyway
03:42<andythenorth>meh
03:42<andythenorth>that spams the buy menu :P
03:42<andythenorth>imo
03:46*andythenorth thinks the replace issue is over-stated
03:46<andythenorth>and can be handled by set design
03:47<@planetmaker>it only spams the buy menu, if 'vehicles never expire' is turned on ;-)
03:47*planetmaker always uses that, though
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03:49<andythenorth>me too
03:50<andythenorth>otherwise clone can annoyingly fail
03:50*andythenorth -> work
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03:59<@planetmaker>http://imagebin.org/154178 <-- somewhat fences are wrong ;-)
03:59<@planetmaker>Yexo: is there a way to define the statemachine's offset wrt tile 0/0 (northern most) of an airport?
04:00<@planetmaker>currently it seems to like the south more
04:09<@peter1138>oh
04:10<@peter1138>the first large airport has 2 flashing yellow pixels where there shouldn't be...
04:10<@peter1138>(in opengfx)
04:11<@planetmaker>do you have a screenshot of which you mean?
04:11<@peter1138>just to the left of the control tower
04:11<@peter1138>yeah, making one :)
04:12<@planetmaker>:-)
04:12<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/opengfxairport.png
04:13<@planetmaker>ah, I see. Thanks
04:14<__ln__>that red house is dangerously close to the end of runway
04:15<@planetmaker>they're used to 'noise concerns' :-P
04:16<@peter1138>yeah
04:16<@peter1138>well i don't know how they got planning permission, but it's their problem
04:16<@peter1138>it was built after the airport :)
04:16<@peter1138>all those houses were, in fact
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04:23<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/opengfx-r668M.zip <-- if you want, there's a fixed version
04:26<@planetmaker>btw, reset_newgrfs also works with base sets
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05:12<pikka>Andy: I think some of the early game generational locos in hard should probably be split into multiple vehicles
05:13<pikka>hard?
05:13<pikka>nars
05:13*pikka gets off the phone
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05:14<andythenorth>pikka: maybe yes
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05:14<andythenorth>but I like it generally as it stands
05:14<andythenorth>can't talk now - work :|
05:15<Pikka>ok
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05:19<deus>morning
05:19<deus>just checking out openttd.
05:19<deus>Only thing I cannot find on your wiki: does the game have a campaign?
05:20<deus>i.e. a little story line, objectives to accomplish etc
05:20<Chrill>it does not, deus
05:20<Chrill>I prefer to set up my own personal goals
05:20<Chrill>"I want to connect this city to this in 50 years"
05:20<Chrill>or "I want to make this much money in this amount of time"
05:20<deus>Chrill: hm ok. that's a pitty :(
05:21<Chrill>It's an open-ended game, which means you also never "finish" a game :)
05:21<Chrill>unless, of course, you consider connecting every city a finish
05:23<deus>still I hope they add some kind of campaign. Games like simcity, or other tycoon games usually have a free-build mode, or a campaign or at least achievements :)
05:23<deus>but I guess that's a matter of personal taste
05:23<Chrill>Absolutely
05:24<Chrill>I see the attraction of achievements
05:24<Chrill>it gives you.. well, a sense of achievement :P
05:24<deus>exactly :)
05:25<deus>I just love the 'You are victorious' messages ;)
05:27<@Terkhen>there is one at 2050
05:28<deus>Terkhen: ah nice
05:28<@Terkhen>http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Company_rating
05:29<@Terkhen>it is a somewhat boring goal, though, most players do what Chrill said
05:29<deus>any plans to add achievements or 'levels' in which you have to accomplish certain objectives in a given setting i.e. make a profitable railway system in a mountain area, etc?
05:29<@Terkhen>there are no plans for that
05:30<@planetmaker>though openttd can accept well worked-out patches
05:31<@planetmaker>the general concensus - as far as I see - is, that a scenario framework wouldn't hurt. But lots of work
05:32<deus>planetmaker: a scenario's would be great. No need for a real story line.
05:32<@planetmaker>well. We DO have a scenario editor
05:32<@planetmaker>The "problem" is, that after the start, the scenario is 'just' another normal map. Without special goals or so
05:32<@Terkhen>a scenario framework would allow to set goals for each scenario, but besides a few ideas there are no work and no plans in that direction
05:33<@planetmaker>The only thing a SE editor currently can do is to set goals by simply stating them
05:33<@planetmaker>what Terkhen says, yes.
05:33<@peter1138>what can squirrel access?
05:33<@peter1138>could a scenario framework 'just be' a squirrel script...
05:34<@peter1138>mind you, then people would complain that a simple scenario is too much work to set up
05:34<deus>planetmaker: ah well, hopefully it's added at some point, but it's still great to see such a great game being reworked :)
05:34<@Terkhen>AIs can access a lot of stuff, but I don't know how much of "other companies information" they can check
05:34<@planetmaker>peter1138: in principle yes. The other option is a modified / extended admin port
05:34<@peter1138>i prefer a built-in system
05:34<@planetmaker>ais can't now. But...
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05:44<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/airports.png <-- one additional view...
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07:33<anujmore>Guys at OpenTTD. Can you help me understand how the basic station (scroll down almost to the end of the page) setup works in http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals
07:33<Noldo>basic two-way?
07:34<anujmore>Yeah
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07:34<Noldo>looks like there are 2 sets on one-way tracks comming to the station
07:34<Noldo>all signals have to be pathbased for that to work
07:35<anujmore>I find it really confusing.
07:35<anujmore>There should be more examples on signals.
07:35<Noldo>you have to make them then
07:36<anujmore>I surely will. But not before I myself understand signals :P
07:36<Chris_Booth_>anujmore there are more examples, but you have to remember the wiki.openttd.org is a wiki
07:36<Chris_Booth_>wiki.openttdcoop.org has alot of good signaling advise
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>there are more examples of signals here http://uwe.s2000.ws/ttdx/ and here http://kokolokus.de/?s=blog&v=6
07:39<anujmore>Eddi|zuHause: I checked kokolokus before
07:39<anujmore>Checking other links now.
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08:29<ChoHag_>Why can't the linux openttd read zip files?
08:29<+glx>windows version can't either
08:30<ChoHag_>Really?
08:30<@Terkhen>really
08:30<ChoHag_>So why is everything apparently distributed as a zip?
08:30<ChoHag_>Also: Why not?
08:30<@Terkhen>I don't know what files are you talking about
08:30<+glx>grfs are distributed as tar
08:31<ChoHag_>I've definitely downloaded things in a zip before.
08:31<ChoHag_>The Open*x things, for one.
08:32<ChoHag_>But why can't it read zips? What was the rationale behind that decision?
08:32<@Terkhen>why should it read zips?
08:32<ChoHag_>Because everthing and its dog reads zips.
08:33<__ln__>I can't read zips either, i use some program to uncompress them first.
08:33<ChoHag_>You clearly don't have a dog.
08:33<@Terkhen>you know what I meant... what's the benefit of reading zips?
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08:34<ChoHag_>Random access, and it's effectively the standard archive format for everybody except Richard Stallman and has been since the dawn of time.
08:35<@Terkhen>your reasons are quite vague, I fail to see why "everyone does it" is a benefit
08:35<+glx>lzma is better :)
08:35<@Terkhen>that too :P
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08:35<@Belugas>hello
08:35<@Terkhen>hi Belugas
08:36<ChoHag_>I don't personally care. My archive software can copy with everything.
08:36<TWerkhoven>if thats a valid reason, openttd should have an internet brower too, after all, everyone uses it
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08:36<ChoHag_>I am wondering what the rationale behind not supporting it, as it is so ubiquitous, is.
08:36<Wolf01>hello
08:36<@Belugas>hello sir Terkhen,hello sir Wolf01 :)
08:36<@Terkhen>I still don't know what files are you talking about, scenarios? AIs? base sets?
08:36<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
08:37<ChoHag_>Never mind.
08:37<@Belugas>supporting what?
08:37<Wolf01>mmmh, looks like webring redirects my homepage to the ring...
08:38<@Terkhen>Belugas: files compressed in zip, but I don't know which ones
08:38<@Belugas>ho
08:39<@Belugas>who cares about the format, as long as it's compressed :)
08:39<@Terkhen>IIRC everything besides AIs is already compressed
08:42<@Belugas>the thing is, as long as memory serves, zip is not as efficient (size/speed) as current compression
08:43<@peter1138>why not write a patch to support it?
08:47<@planetmaker>Belugas: quite right.
08:47<@planetmaker>the (default) xz gains by 20% iirc
08:48<@peter1138>Terkhen, what's compressed?
08:49<@Terkhen>savegames/scenarios, newgrfs (although I don't know how much), heightmaps
08:49<@planetmaker>content_download uses gz afaik. savegames xz (by default). But configurable via config file
08:50<@Terkhen>in content_download I only have plain tars, are they extracted after download?
08:50<+glx>yup
08:51<@Belugas>good question, to which i don't have anser
08:51<@Terkhen>good :)
08:51<@Belugas>ho well :)
08:53<@planetmaker>that's why we had broken tars when zlib 1.2.3_4.(?) was floating around ;-)
08:53<@planetmaker>uncompression after download ate the last chunk
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09:06<Eddi|zuHause><ChoHag_> Random access, and it's effectively the standard archive format for everybody except Richard Stallman and has been since the dawn of time. <-- then i must be from beyond the dawn of time, since i remember everybody's standard archive format being ARJ
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>that may have been 20 years ago, though :p
09:07<@Terkhen>ARJ was the de facto standard before the dawn of time, yes :P
09:10<Rubidium>ChoHag_: maybe because zip isn't a standardised format, nor is it 100% clear that the format isn't patent/copyright/trademark encumbered
09:11<Rubidium>whereas tar is standardized
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09:13<ChoHag_>Hmm what's this + sign next to some engines, and which newgrf did it come from?
09:14<@Terkhen>do you have a screenshot?
09:15<ChoHag_>You mean you don't KNOW?
09:15<ChoHag_>Bah I always mix up select and crop...
09:17<@Terkhen>it should be obvious from before that I'm quite bad at guessing
09:17<ChoHag_>http://imagebin.org/154216
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>it's likely the UKRS addon
09:18<ChoHag_>Any idea what it's doing?
09:18<ChoHag_>I didn't see a readme.
09:18<Ammler>what does grfcodec use to compress, btw.?
09:18<Ammler>could be changed to lzma too, maybe :-)
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>it adds engines that were left out for game balance reasons
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09:19<@Yexo>only real sprites are compressed
09:19<@Yexo>the actionsprites are not compressed at all
09:19<ChoHag_>Eddi|zuHause: Where 'it' == the GRF, or the engines with a +?
09:19<@Yexo>Ammler: it uses LZ77
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>ChoHag_: yes.
09:20<ChoHag_>OK that's an 'or' question, you can't say 'yes'.
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
09:20<Ammler>Yexo: which lib does openttd use to uncompress or is that own code?
09:20<ChoHag_>Also, on compression, I'm sorry I asked, but I *did* just ask why the choice was made, not propose that a better/worse one be made instead.
09:20<@Yexo>own code
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>ChoHag_: the choice against zip is for the reasons Rubidium mentioned above
09:21<Rubidium>compression sucks when you need to jump back and forth though a file very often, so we use an uncompressed format
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>the choice against compression at all is for access speed/code complexity reasons
09:22<Rubidium>and... OpenTTD already needed zlib for compressing the savegame, so decompressing .gz is trivial without extra dependencies
09:23<Rubidium>whereas for zip it requires adding extra libraries
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>compression is only used for seldom tasks like downloading or saving/loading. reading grf content is a frequent task
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09:25<ChoHag_>The cargo payent rate for alcohol in FIRS is wrong.
09:25<ChoHag_>It should go up with time.
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>haha :p
09:28<@Terkhen>heh :D
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09:57<@Belugas>maybe because andythenorth put his fantasy of cheap alcohol in FIRS :)
09:59<Prof_Frink>Or maybe because you're transporting it, not buying it.
09:59<Prof_Frink>(Too realistic?)
09:59<@Belugas>qute :)
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10:10<@planetmaker>hm, defining a whole airport anew is a lengthy task...
10:17<@Yexo>which is why I haven't finished airportsplus yet :)
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10:20<@Belugas>ask Richk :)
10:20<@Belugas>he'll do it in a five minute flat hehe
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10:45<@Belugas>mmh... next vewrsion of our main app is going to be 5.7.7 SS
10:46<@Belugas>i have 2 out of 3 bosses that are jews. i wonder if i should not skip that version..
10:47<@planetmaker>did you skip the others, too?
10:48<Ammler>if you skip it, you might need to explain why, that is worse
10:48<@Belugas>which ones?
10:49<Ammler>else SS is just a version
10:49<@Terkhen>5.7.6 SS for example
10:49<@Belugas>true that, Ammler (explaining part)
10:50<@Belugas>ho.. i unserdatnd, planetmaker. no, since that letter scheme was not in place back tehn
10:50<@Belugas>then
10:50<@planetmaker>Belugas: also not for SA?
10:51<@Belugas>?
10:51<Ammler>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung
10:51*Rubidium would argue that a large percentage of two and three letter acronyms are insulting tome
10:51<@planetmaker>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung
10:51<@planetmaker>:-)
10:52<@planetmaker>Ammler was faster
10:52<Ammler>planetmaker: fix your client lag :-P
10:52<@planetmaker>rather layer 8 lag
10:52<@Belugas>heheh SA is too regional for us ;)
10:52<@planetmaker>paste, enter, read back ;-)
10:53<Ammler>Belugas: if the English wikipedia uses the German word, it isn't regional, imo
10:53<@planetmaker>nope. SS was part of SA
10:54<@Belugas>well... i meant that for most of north americans, SS is known while SA is not. You have to be somewhat connected.
10:54<@planetmaker>dunno, I think the worst thing is the sissors in the head and to 2nd guess everything
11:02<@peter1138>leave a bug in it
11:02<@peter1138>so that there'll have to be a quick fix to ST
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11:05<Ammler>:-)
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11:13<@Belugas>hehehe
11:13<@Belugas>good point :)
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11:30*andythenorth is having a belugas day with respect to people saying 'in real life it would work like this...'
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11:38<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/airports.png <-- :-D Obviously the fences are wrong ;-)
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11:44<@Belugas>obiwan strike?
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11:45<@Belugas>andythenorth, behead them, they are not worth living!
11:47<@planetmaker>also... that's the small heliport for the REALLY BIG helicopters it seems ;-)
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12:09<@Belugas>wahhh!!! Already lunch hour!
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12:48<@peter1138>arrr
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22480 /trunk/src/lang/ (hungarian.txt spanish.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hungarian - 5 changes by IPG
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
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14:39<andythenorth>evening
14:39*andythenorth is out of variations
14:40<@Alberth>evening andy
14:41<supermop>variations on piano etudes?
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14:44<andythenorth>probably
14:44<@peter1138>andrew lloyd webber's variations?
14:45<andythenorth>perhaps
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14:47<andythenorth>anyone know more than me about python buildout?
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds evil
14:47<andythenorth>it's not massively evil
14:48<andythenorth>there are more evil things
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like a group of adrenaline junkies meet in a dark alley and have illegal races with tuned pythons
14:49<supermop>i want to do that
14:49<andythenorth>Yexo: is nml already egg-ified? I can't quite figure out eggs yet
14:50<@Yexo>no idea what that is exactly, so I don't know
14:50<andythenorth>:)
14:50<andythenorth>me neither
14:50<andythenorth>it has setup.py which seems to be one of the main criteria
14:50<@Yexo>setup.py is because it uses setuptools
14:51<andythenorth>yup
14:58*andythenorth reads internets
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15:27<@Alberth>eggs are evil
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>evil eggs for evil persons... no wait, something isn't right there
15:28<@Alberth>Yexo: distutils already has setup.py, the other build program copied that idea
15:29<@Yexo>right, distutils it was
15:30<@Alberth>they all try to be 'better', and failed, as they enter the domain of package managers
15:30*andythenorth tries to figure out if we'd need to move nml files around to suit buildout convention
15:31<@Alberth>that would be an indication of a broken build/packaging(?) system :)
15:31<andythenorth>maybe
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15:31<andythenorth>buildout is approximately as broken as anything else
15:32<@Alberth>so no reason to use buildout? :p
15:32<andythenorth>:P
15:32<andythenorth>no reason not to
15:33<andythenorth>the only reasons not to are (a) I can't figure it out (b) no-one else is that interested :P
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15:34<andythenorth>I intended to start BANDIT yesterday and have now been diverted into this
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15:40<sliddy>damn stuff
15:41<@Alberth>your ISP is too optimistic w.r.t. line stability :)
15:41<andythenorth>hmm
15:42*andythenorth is puzzled
15:48<@Alberth>anything I can do to unpuzzle you?
15:48<andythenorth>help me figure out buildout?
15:49<andythenorth>http://www.buildout.org/install.html
15:49<andythenorth>http://jacobian.org/writing/django-apps-with-buildout/
15:49<andythenorth>I have used buildout many times, but never created one
15:50<andythenorth>I've modified the tutorial to pull down PIL and PLY, but that's trivial
15:50<andythenorth>pulling in nml from the repo baffles me
15:52<@Alberth>hmm, it uses setuptools
15:52<andythenorth>yup
15:52<andythenorth>and there's a setup.py already
15:53<andythenorth>last night I put nml in /src and added it to the eggs list, and the buildout didn't freak out
15:53<andythenorth>but I don't know nml works wrt paths etc
15:54*andythenorth is trying to use a packager he doesn't understand to package a module he doesn't understand :)
15:56<@Alberth>the nml directory must be findable in the python module search path, and nmlc is a program
15:56<@Alberth>ie must be in a PATH directory
15:58*andythenorth googles how to check that
15:58<andythenorth>ho
15:59<andythenorth>I think buildout can set that (if a local python is provided)
15:59*andythenorth wonders whether a local python is wise for nml or not
16:00<@Alberth>but doesn't the distutils setup.py handle that?
16:00<andythenorth>possibly
16:00<andythenorth>I am out of my depth
16:02<@Belugas>so... you are on your surface?
16:03<@Alberth>it looks incredible complicated at first sight.
16:03<andythenorth>Alberth: "So this work we’re doing up front now can be seen as a one-time expense against all the time all your future contributors would otherwise have to spend getting up and running."
16:03<andythenorth>to quote
16:04<andythenorth>it took two hours to install nml yesterday
16:04<andythenorth>and if a buildout can be made to work, each newgrf project can buildout nml for the user along with the project
16:06<@Alberth>so why not use pip? http://www.pip-installer.org/en/latest/
16:07<@Alberth>pip is considered much better than easy_install by #python
16:07<@Alberth>(I have not worked with pip either)
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16:08*andythenorth reads
16:11<andythenorth>hmm
16:11<andythenorth>either way nml will need to be an egg as far as I can see
16:13<andythenorth>maybe I should go and draw some trucks
16:13<andythenorth>I am not good at this stuff
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16:23<ChoHag_>Is it possible to refit part of a train without using an intermediary engine?
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16:27<Rubidium>Yes, not quite sure which manner is supported by the stable release, nightlies and possibly *the* patch
16:30<ChoHag_>Ah you can click on the cars.
16:31<ChoHag_>Didn't even see the train icon up there.
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16:58<andythenorth>hmm
16:58<andythenorth>truck capacities
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16:58<__ln__>http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,763954,00.html
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: can't be worse that a shipload of sulphuric acid leaking...
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17:09<andythenorth>going by UK law, the most a large rigid truck can carry is about 18t
17:10<andythenorth>eGRVTS is quite...generous
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>that's where articulated trucks come in
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>update trucks by running cost (fuel consumption) instead of capacity
17:11<andythenorth>I want to avoid articulated trucks in BANDIT initially
17:12<andythenorth>I don't like the available implementation
17:12<andythenorth>although it might be ok for a 'UK' flavour
17:13<andythenorth>what's a nice range of sizes?
17:13<andythenorth>6/12/18t
17:13<@planetmaker>well, does it hurt to go up to 30t or so for a vehicle w/o articulation?
17:14<@planetmaker>after all... realism ;-)
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>HEQS already has that
17:14<andythenorth>only for bulk cargo
17:14<andythenorth>it hurts in a YACD game
17:14<andythenorth>well...hurts is wrong
17:15<andythenorth>more just I need a range of trucks
17:16<@planetmaker>I don't argue against a range of trucks. But 18t as max is quite low
17:16<@planetmaker>maybe 6 / 18 /30 or so
17:16<@planetmaker>or maybe 5 / 15 / 25 is better
17:17<@planetmaker>then there'll be incentive for AV later on
17:17<@planetmaker>which then can go up to 40
17:17<andythenorth>hmm
17:17<__ln__>http://www.kval.com/news/local/121962009.html
17:17<andythenorth>it's odd (but might be right) that we increase truck capacity, but decrease train capacity
17:17<@planetmaker>hm, my heliport now nearly looks like a city airport :-)
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>5, 15 for normal trucks, 25 and 40 for articulated trucks
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>from 1920 to 1970 increase speed, after that, decrease running cost
17:19<andythenorth>40 is high for uk / eu
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17:19<Eddi|zuHause>new generation every ~15 years, makes 1920, 1935, 1950, 1965, 1980, 1995, 2010
17:20<andythenorth>what's the gameplay benefit of over-sized trucks?
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>7 generations of trucks
17:20<@Terkhen>you need less trucks to cover the same route
17:20<andythenorth>e.g. gameplay purpose of undersized wagons is to make longer trains
17:21<andythenorth>should I just implement a size parameter immediately?
17:22<andythenorth>rather than repeating same argument for next n months?
17:22<andythenorth>@calc 18*1.5
17:22<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 27
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17:23<andythenorth>@calc 25/18
17:23<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 1.38888888889
17:23<andythenorth>hmm
17:23<andythenorth>@calc 5*1.4
17:23<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 7
17:23<andythenorth>not too bad
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>www.eisenbahnstiftung.de/bg/pics/3100.jpg <-- vehicles in vehicles ;)
17:24<andythenorth>my first train set featured that
17:25<andythenorth>I was thinking capacity multiplier for HEQS as well
17:25<andythenorth>(smaller)
17:26<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: every 15 years is about right
17:27<andythenorth>but I want a little more variety than that
17:27<andythenorth>I think I can solve your niggle with upgrades
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>you can have the variety with the different capacity models
17:27<andythenorth>I'm planning multiple manufacturers
17:27<andythenorth>I like how pikka sets offer multiple similar vehicles
17:28<andythenorth>the choice is interesting
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>so you'll have like three roughly same models at the same time?
17:28<andythenorth>or two might be enough
17:28<andythenorth>but they'll have different IDs, and I'll stagger who releases improved models when
17:28<andythenorth>so you can flip back and forth to latest greatest with auto-replace
17:29<andythenorth>but not spamming buy menu too much
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what that means
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>one annoying problem with "upgrades" is that you won't get notifications that it is available
17:29<andythenorth>true
17:29<andythenorth>hmm
17:29<andythenorth>can't solve that
17:30<andythenorth>can solve your other problem
17:30<@Terkhen>nobody likes road vehicles anyways :P
17:30<andythenorth>I'll take 1 out of 2
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>i'm already annoyed that it's not available for wagons
17:30<@Terkhen>or at least the small ones
17:30<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: patch? :P
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123 made a patch for that, afair
17:31*andythenorth thinks maybe a 'model' cb might not be so stupid...
17:31<frosch123>something was horribly broken with that patch
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17:31<andythenorth>cb is only used when grf is initialised
17:32<andythenorth>returns n dates
17:32<andythenorth>dates correspond to generations / models
17:32<andythenorth>must be in order
17:32*andythenorth is not good at spec
17:33<andythenorth>could be used to announce upgrades
17:33<Chris_Booth>lol cb highlights me
17:33<@SmatZ>:D
17:33<Chris_Booth>and I was like WTF
17:33<andythenorth>and it was like beep beep beep
17:33<Chris_Booth>yes
17:34<Chris_Booth>I may have to take that off my list
17:34<andythenorth>in that case I'll go to sleep :P
17:34<andythenorth>BANDIT can wait
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17:34*SmatZ wishes andythenorth good night
17:34<andythenorth>bye SmatZ :)
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17:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: maybe the solution could be the same as what i proposed previously for "regearing" refits: decoupling the subcargo bits from actual cargo, so you can refit without any cargo
17:35<@SmatZ>late Eddi is lat
17:35<@SmatZ>e
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>damn
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>it's annoying when he does that...
17:35<Thorn_>sleep? ;p
17:36<@SmatZ>don't even mention that word :p
17:37<@Terkhen>suddenly saying bye and dissapearing? :P
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>around here it's called a "blitzquitter" :p
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17:42<@Terkhen>:D
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18:40<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i should be careful when i leave the room, in case the cat decides to hunt in the asciiquarium...
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19:28<frosch123>night
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19:29<@Terkhen>good night
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20:40<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sat May 21 00:00:58 2011