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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-05-22

---Logopened Sun May 22 00:00:59 2011
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02:50<andythenorth>morningz
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02:57<pikka>I'm 12 and what is this
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03:44<andythenorth>@seen DanMacK
03:44<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: DanMacK was last seen in #openttd 2 days, 14 hours, 18 minutes, and 6 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Hey all
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03:58<andythenorth>if vehicles-in-vehicles got done, I should draw a landing craft
04:00<andythenorth>http://images.canadianlisted.com/nlarge/2008-20-aluminum-landing-craft-workboat_5775845.jpg
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04:55<@Terkhen>good morning
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05:11<andythenorth>hello Terkhen
05:19<@planetmaker>moin
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06:12<SigHunter>when compiling openttd, it tells me it cant find lzma. i then choose the amd64 linux generic build rather than compiling it on my own, does this one have lzma then? does it statically have lzma or does it look for it too and not find it and just doesnt use it?
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>the generic binary has (almost) everything statically linked
06:14<SigHunter>kk thx!
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06:15<Eddi|zuHause>and to install lzma you might have to install packages like "lzma2-devel" or "xz-devel"
06:15<SigHunter>do you know which one is the right one for ubuntu?
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>nope
06:16<@peter1138>liblzma-dev ?
06:18<SigHunter>thought i installed that
06:18<SigHunter>anyway, cant do it myself, not root on that server
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>but you can check your package manager whether something is installed even if you are not root
06:20<SigHunter>hmm ^^
06:20<SigHunter>ubuntu, never used it :X
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06:20<Eddi|zuHause>me neither
06:20<@peter1138>dpkg -l | grep lzma
06:21<SigHunter>can i paste?
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>pastebin.com
06:22<SigHunter>http://pastebin.com/3Hvi9hQF
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds right, maybe your version is too low?
06:23<SigHunter>version of ttd or lzma?
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>might check for 5.0 instead of 4.999-beta
06:24<SigHunter>kk ill ask the serverowner later to install 5.0, maybe that works then
06:24<@peter1138>is pkg-config installed?
06:25<@peter1138>config.lib doesn't check for version
06:26<SigHunter>nope its not installed
06:26<SigHunter>dpkg -l | grep pkg-config doesn't list it
06:28<@peter1138>that's probably it then
06:29<SigHunter>kk ill try that to
06:29<SigHunter>thx!
06:33*peter1138 ponders attacking the landscape generator again
06:34<Eddi|zuHause> byte delete_ctr; ///< Delete counter. If greater than 0 then it is decremented until it reaches 0; the waypoint is then is deleted. <-- hm, i can find no code supporting this comment
06:34<@peter1138>also, the town generator should probably avoid placing towns on tiny islands
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>add a check for town placement that a 5x5 area must be free?
06:35<@peter1138>if (!st->IsInUse() && ++st->delete_ctr >= 8) {
06:35<@peter1138>delete st;
06:35<@peter1138>so yeah, out of date comment
06:36<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, that would prevent coastal towns
06:36<Rubidium>even worse... counter used for multiple things ;)
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: "3 tiles away from coast"?
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>my observation is that if a tile is water, it moves the town center towards the nearest coast
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>so you get more coastal cities anyway
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06:54<andythenorth_>peter1138: I like the small island towns :)
06:54<andythenorth_>small ferries ftw
06:54<andythenorth_>although the town growth bug tends to destroy them when they're serviced :(
06:55<@peter1138>how small are you talking? :p
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06:56<Wolf01>hello
06:56<@Alberth>hello
06:58<andythenorth_>small island town is 15-60 inhabitants?
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>a road and a church: 0 population :p
06:58<@peter1138>bah, i should've reduced the number of towns & industries on this map
06:59<@peter1138>with 70% water, it's a bit crowded
06:59*SpComb wants to play OpenTTD
07:00<SpComb>havn't evaluated YACD thingie yet
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>now's the right time ;)
07:04<@peter1138>yeah, i just started a new map
07:05<@peter1138>hmm, there are two public YACD servers
07:05<@peter1138>mine isn't not the openttdcoop one, heh
07:05<@peter1138>er
07:05<@peter1138>*is not
07:06<SpComb>a little worried about what will happen to cd now, though :(
07:06<@peter1138>yikes, they still use nasty presignal layouts instead of simple pbs
07:06<@peter1138>cd's been made obsolete by mp3
07:07<SpComb>rule #1: do not visit random public servers
07:07<SpComb>peter1138: hardly
07:07<@peter1138>openttdcoop isn't that random
07:07<@peter1138>but yeah, i should remember that they don't do things the best way
07:08<SpComb>then they've probably figure out that presignals use less CPU time and let them build 23.5% bigger maps, as measured statistically
07:08<@peter1138>also they've only used trains
07:09<@peter1138>and only coal, grain and livestock is transported
07:10<andythenorth_>hmm
07:10<andythenorth_>YACD mp game?
07:10<andythenorth_>with private editions of FISH :P
07:10<@peter1138>i could be persuaded
07:10<andythenorth_>I have baby interruptions at 2 min intervals
07:10<SpComb>played over 3G on a train?
07:11<andythenorth_>lack of pause will hurt me :P
07:12<andythenorth_>the town growth bug is annoying
07:12<andythenorth_>can anyone replicate?
07:12<andythenorth_>1. pick a small town with high population, near coast or on island
07:12<@peter1138>what town growth bug?
07:13<andythenorth_>2. service with ships
07:13<andythenorth_>3. watch town population rapid fally
07:13<andythenorth_>this is for games starting around 1880
07:13<andythenorth_>where most of buildings are 'Flats'
07:13<andythenorth_>they get rebuilt into smaller buildings or theatres
07:13<@peter1138>hmm
07:13<andythenorth_>the effect with buses is much less pronounced
07:13<@peter1138>well, you took their population away ;p
07:14<andythenorth_>stupid theatres :P
07:15<andythenorth_>enough theatres yet? Or should there be more? http://tt-foundry.com/misc/too_many_theatres.png
07:17<andythenorth_>this is the usual case: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/ship_towns_1870.png
07:17<andythenorth_>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/ship_towns_1878.png
07:17<andythenorth_>I am rewarded for good service by mass exodus
07:17<@peter1138>are they default houses?
07:18<andythenorth_>yep
07:18<andythenorth_>I never use house sets
07:18*andythenorth_ might have to write a house set to correct this :(
07:18<andythenorth_>it's probably not a bug, probably a valid side effect of town expansion :(
07:18<andythenorth_>most annoyink
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07:28<@Terkhen>maybe it is a difference between "houses built during random generation" and "houses built in 1880"
07:29<andythenorth_>I wonder if the 'problem' is the choice of houses at map generation
07:29<andythenorth_>rather than the random
07:29<andythenorth_>good service increases chance of house rebuilding?
07:30<andythenorth_>hmm
07:30<andythenorth_>towns are a PITA anyway, with statue spam etc
07:32*andythenorth_ back to beautifying boats
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>why can't one move his own statue?
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07:40<@planetmaker>you donated it to the town ;-)
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07:49<Eddi|zuHause>was annoying enough in TTO when you couldn't move your HQ
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>that was changed, so why not the statues?
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07:52<Rubidium>magic bulldozer!
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>wrong answer
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07:56<nicfer>hello anybody
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07:56<anybody>hello
07:57-!-anybody is now known as andythenorth
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>!seen anybody
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>@seen anybody
07:58<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: anybody was last seen in #openttd 2 minutes and 28 seconds ago: <anybody> hello
08:04<@Alberth>he seems to say 'hi' or 'hello' only :p
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08:08<nicfer>I'd like to see a large-scale citybuilding mode in ottd where towns can build houses inside large grids like 7x7, and houses population rescaled so for the same amount of inhabitants the city needs to be like 7 times bigger
08:08<andythenorth>newgrf
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>you can adjust the road grid width by modifying the code
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>and the house population by newgrf
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>then make most city houses 2x2 or 2x1
08:11<nicfer>then generate a very flat world with no industries and make trains expensiver and high-capacity pax wagons
08:13<nicfer>I shall try to create a newgrf with some new trains
08:16<nicfer>notepad is alright to do some nfo coding?
08:18<@Alberth>technically sure, but almost any other editor is better :)
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>real programmers use a butterfly
08:22<@Alberth>but unlike in some hollywood stories, that only influences the weather :p
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08:26<andythenorth>nicfer wouldn't it be better to use nml?
08:27<nicfer>nml?
08:28<andythenorth>where is there a intro to nml?
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>in the grf technical forum?
08:28<@planetmaker>intro is relative. But there's the NML thread in the technical forum indeed
08:29<nicfer>oh I just saw it on the wiki
08:29<nicfer>also, didn't ttdalter featured a 'export to newgrf' function?
08:30<@planetmaker>if you have never programmed a newgrf before, nml might be easier indeed
08:31<@planetmaker>but it offers - as most programming languages - no GUI interface, but requires an editor. E.g. unlike grfmaker
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>oh great... "terrorists" will get "virtual bombs"...
08:32<nicfer>I know the basics of text based coding
08:32<Eddi|zuHause>that's an improvement of the "abstract danger" that was previously the reason for all the "anti-terror" surveillance
08:33<nicfer>I think I even made some nfo tries
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09:29<LordAro>moin
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10:10<andythenorth>bah
10:10<andythenorth>drawing boat hull shapes is very hard :P
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10:22<LordAro>i would've thought that you would be well practised by now :p
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10:35<@Alberth>but the quality standard also gets higher as you get more experience :)
10:36<LordAro>definitely :)
10:36<LordAro>hi Alberth
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10:51<@Alberth>hi
10:54<andythenorth_>most of the FISH hulls are rendered then painted over
10:54<andythenorth_>I have no render for this one
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12:37*andythenorth ponders adjusting FISH refits
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12:43<@peter1138>this cargo starting and ending at the same station issue is frustrating :p
12:45<andythenorth>I didn't notice it in my YACD game
12:45<andythenorth>does it mostly affect PAX?
12:46<@Yexo>I have a file which kate refuses to open as utf-8, while I'm sure that parts of the file are in fact utf-8
12:46<@Yexo>how can I figure out which part(s) are invalid?
12:47<@planetmaker>can you load it and save it as utf-8?
12:47<@planetmaker>as in load as *something* and save as utf-8?
12:48<@Yexo>while it's open I can't change the encoding to utf-8, so I can't save it as such
12:48<@Yexo>hmm, I can ;)
12:48<@planetmaker>:-)
12:49<@Yexo>but now the previously valid utf-8 strings are incorrectly saved :(
12:49<@planetmaker>can you not 'save as' but 're-interpret as'?
12:50<@Yexo>that didn't work, probably because part of it is invalid utf-8
12:50<@Yexo>figured it out :)
12:51<@Yexo>few lines of python to figure out which line was invalid utf-8, removed that part and now I'm able to read the file correctly
12:51<@planetmaker>:-)
12:53<@peter1138>andythenorth, i guess so. other cargo is way less likely to be accepted locally.
12:54<andythenorth>so that's why I have 5k PAX waiting at some of my large stations
12:57<@peter1138>same with mail
12:59*andythenorth goes back to drawing
12:59*andythenorth will cheat at boats
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22486 /trunk/src/lang/dutch.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 11 changes by Parody
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14:01-!-Mucht is "Martin Nussbaumer" on @#coopetition @#JJ @+#openttdcoop.association @#openttdcoop.dev #wwottdgd #openttd @#tycoon.de @#openttdcoop
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>i knew it! dutch is a parody!
14:11<@SmatZ>:P
14:11<@SmatZ>hmm.. wasn't the world supposed to end around midnight CET?
14:12<@SmatZ>or will there be another "correction" to the date...
14:12<@SmatZ>1994 was a mistake, yesterday was a mistake...
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>the world is supposed to end plenty of times...
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>and also, no, it was only "judgement day", where all worthy people have been called to heaven
14:13<@SmatZ>oh
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>apparently, there were not that many worthy people :p
14:13<@SmatZ>:P
14:13<Chris_Booth>hi
14:13<@SmatZ>hello CB
14:14<@SmatZ>dihedral ? are you here or in heaven?
14:14<@Terkhen>the rapture will happen whenever there are at least two people worthy of it
14:14<__ln__>my sources say it was supposed to happen at 1800 hours regardless of timezone
14:15<@SmatZ>:-)
14:15<@SmatZ>maybe there weren't even two people worth... :x
14:15<@Terkhen>^ :P
14:16<@SmatZ>ok, let's wait to 21st Dec 2012 :)
14:16*Terkhen bets for nothing will happen
14:17<@SmatZ>hehe :)
14:17<@SmatZ>too bad one can't really bet on that
14:17<@SmatZ>if you win, you get the money
14:18<@SmatZ>if you lose, the world will end, and the betting company won't exist anymore
14:18<@SmatZ>so they can't gain anything
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>and that is your problem? :p
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>of course, gambling will likely make you not worthy :p
14:18<@SmatZ>:)
14:20<@Terkhen>joking about the final judgement probably makes you not worthy anyways so we are condemned already :)
14:21<@SmatZ>hehe :)
14:22*andythenorth is confused by boat capacity
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14:34<@peter1138>what about it?
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>the passenger ships refitted to cargo have totally odd capacities
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14:43<andythenorth>irl, a 30m barge might hold up 500t
14:43<andythenorth>but a 55m ship holds 700t
14:43<andythenorth>@calc 55/30
14:43<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 1.83333333333
14:43<andythenorth>@calc 700/500
14:43<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 1.4
14:43<andythenorth>I guess ships have more crew cabins etc
14:44<andythenorth>and need more structural strength for sea travel
14:44<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: what's weird about the pax ship cargo capacities?
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>they're something like 157
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>some really odd numbers
14:45<andythenorth>he :)
14:45<andythenorth>I guess my sense of humour only works for me :P
14:45<andythenorth>they're a ridiculously expensive way to transport cargo anyway
14:45<andythenorth>hmm
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>it's that weird x4 multiplier
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>which is way out...
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>especially for ships
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14:46<andythenorth>I just made up my own multiplier in this case
14:46<andythenorth>1.7
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i have not updated to the latest version yet
14:46<@Alberth>length*8 + 260t = capacity
14:47<andythenorth>:)
14:47<@Alberth>260 is too much to be right, I think
14:47<SpComb>8t/m?
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14:51<andythenorth>a 66ft humber keel has 80t capacity, but a 66ft puffer has 120t
14:51<andythenorth>both are flat bottomed barge-type hulls
14:51<andythenorth>both for uk coastal trade
14:51<andythenorth>one has 50% more capacity
14:51<andythenorth>bit odd
14:52<andythenorth>there's draft and beam to account for as well I guess
14:52<andythenorth>and density of cargo
14:52<andythenorth>http://www.jim-shead.com/waterways/boats.php?wpage=BC2
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14:59<SpComb>80t of feathers or 120t of hammers?
15:00<andythenorth>hammers
15:02<SpComb>it's an important difference
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15:15<Eddi|zuHause>it's a trick question! the hammers weigh more!
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15:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r22487 /trunk/src/saveload/oldloader_sl.cpp: -Fix (r15216)[FS#4622]: engine IDs for coal and mail wagons were swapped
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>and nobody noticed :p
15:19<@SmatZ>yeah
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15:59*andythenorth ponders
15:59<andythenorth>if I give canal boats realistic speeds...
15:59<andythenorth>will anyone use them?
16:00<Hirundo>please define 'realistic'
16:00<@Alberth>just add a 'realistic' flag :)
16:03<andythenorth>12mph
16:03<Ammler>and almost 0 running cost maybe
16:03<@Terkhen>that's... really slow :P
16:04<@peter1138>problem is the high cost of canals :S
16:05<andythenorth>that's resolvable :P
16:05<Hirundo>the cost of building canals should change over time (changing labour costs etc), that's 'realistic' ;)
16:06<andythenorth>cargo should age less on a canal boat :P
16:06<andythenorth>or they should go 4 times faster than other vehicles
16:06<andythenorth>and other silly suggestions
16:06<andythenorth>Terkhen: 12mph is too slow?
16:06<@Terkhen>I think so, yes
16:07<andythenorth>compared to 15mph?
16:07<Hirundo>What is their introduction date?
16:07<@peter1138>some of the early stock ships are slow
16:07<andythenorth>Hirundo: not sure yet
16:07<@Terkhen>hmm... if their current speed is 15mph then I probably have avoided them
16:07<andythenorth>Terkhen: they don't currently exist
16:07<@peter1138>my mail ship goes 15mph :p
16:07<andythenorth>but other FISH boats are 15-21mph
16:07<@Terkhen>what do they carry?
16:07<andythenorth>anything
16:08<andythenorth>50t of anything
16:08<Ammler>it's not the speed what matter, it's the income at end of year or month
16:08<@peter1138>do we have restrictions on what ships can go where?
16:08<Ammler>so if you have big cap and very low cost, it might work
16:08<andythenorth>peter1138: no
16:09<andythenorth>Ammler: it's cheap to run, cheap to buy
16:09<Ammler>as said, doesn't matter, you need to run it for some time and decide then :-)
16:11<andythenorth>it can be 13mph
16:11<andythenorth>have an extra 1mph :P
16:11<andythenorth>I avoid 13 usually
16:11<andythenorth>unlucky
16:11<andythenorth>it's ok in hex though
16:11<@Alberth>just use km/h to display :p
16:11<andythenorth>hmm
16:12<andythenorth>drawing very small stuff is hard
16:12<andythenorth>drawing very big stuff is hard
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>ship speed should be displayed in knots :p
16:12<andythenorth>drawing medium sized stuff is easy :)
16:12<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: good idea :)
16:12<andythenorth>drawing things the size of a train is quick
16:13<andythenorth>that's how all those train sets get done so quick. DanMacK can draw an entire train set in the time it takes him to draw one boat for me.
16:13<Ammler>what does small stuff mean, are the boats that small, so you need 100s to traspaort one primary?
16:14<Ammler>1t per boat :-)
16:14<@peter1138>draw it lifesize
16:14<@peter1138>then scale it down
16:15<andythenorth>Ammler drawing a fork lift-truck is hard
16:15<andythenorth>7 pixels long to do a complex shape
16:16<andythenorth>big stuff is hard because it has to be accurately lit
16:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r22488 /trunk/src/screenshot.cpp: -Doc: Add Doxygen comments to screenshot code.
16:18<Wolf01>'night
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16:18<@Alberth>good night
16:19<@Alberth>too late, probably
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17:06<andythenorth>canal boats: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=144738
17:07*Hirundo grabs a magnifying glass
17:07<andythenorth>it's a wee one
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17:09<Eddi|zuHause>on what kind of scale is that to the other ships?
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>it should be slightly offset to the right of the tile, so two ships look like passing each other
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>(ships pass on the right worldwide, unlike road side)
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17:17<@peter1138>lies, ships pass through each other
17:17<andythenorth>exactamly
17:18<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it's on the same scale as the other ships in FISH :)
17:18<andythenorth>turns out to be approx 2ft / pixel, although that was never a decision
17:23<andythenorth>time for bed
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17:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22489 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix [FS#4623]: don't cast pointers to unsigned long or vice versa
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17:41<@Terkhen>good night
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---Logclosed Mon May 23 00:00:00 2011