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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-05-25

---Logopened Wed May 25 00:00:04 2011
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01:33<@planetmaker>good morning
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02:24<@peter1138>heh, xkcd mentions the philosophy thing on wikipedia
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02:39<@planetmaker>peter1138: I tested that "philosophy claim" from a random page. It didn't work
02:39<@planetmaker>I actually ended up in a circle
02:39<@planetmaker>but never at philosophy
02:41<@planetmaker>somewhat from a local minor football club over biology into a science and humanity circle
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03:19<@peter1138>http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g213/Wytchcrafte/Websites/Bloggin/OdinvRapture.jpg
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03:31<@peter1138>damn
03:31<@peter1138>trying to remember the url for a web-based graph plotting tool
03:32<@peter1138>hmm, in the vein of fooplot.com, but it covered the browser window
03:36<@planetmaker>wolfram alpha ?
03:36<@peter1138>no
03:39<@peter1138>i mean the plot covered the window
03:39<@peter1138>and was scrollable, a la google maps, heh
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04:36<LordAro>Yexo: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=947903#p947903 <-- i'm thinking it's perhaps a regression bug?
04:36<@Yexo>you're just making a random guess now
04:37<@Yexo>I'm not doing anything until either ac84 or someone else has seriously looked into the problem and can't find it
04:37<@Yexo>my guess would be GetAPIVersion() in info.nut returning 1.1, so AIAbstractList is not available, but still used in one place, perhaps via a library
04:38*LordAro downloads the AI, to check
04:40<LordAro>Yexo: nope: "function GetAPIVersion() { return "1.0"; } "
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04:49<@Terkhen>good morning
04:52-!-Juo [~Juo@cpc16-lewi15-2-0-cust395.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
04:52<LordAro>moin Terkhen
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04:56<@planetmaker>LordAro, and all libraries? ;-)
04:56<@planetmaker>moin also
04:59<LordAro>planetmaker: ? not sure i understand...
05:00<@planetmaker>the used libraries must not use that call either. Just like y3xo said
05:01<LordAro>i guess so, but then the only recent(-ish) library is superlib
05:01<LordAro>...isn't it?
05:01<@planetmaker>How should I know? I never programmed any AI.
05:01<@planetmaker>it's the AI's authors responsibility to check that
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05:03<@planetmaker>it's like in c programming: If I include a header file I should know what its functions do and require ;-)
05:03<@planetmaker>and their limitations
05:05<LordAro>true :) IIRC, no library uses 1.1 API yet...
05:06<@planetmaker>I'm not sure whether libraries may use other APIs than the AI itself. I guess not.
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05:12<@Yexo>no, they'll automatically use the same version as the AI
05:12<@Yexo>but the 1.0 API still has AIAbstractList, so I wonder where that error came from
05:13<LordAro>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=947910#p947910 <-- he replied, but its fairly useless... :)
05:16<LordAro>perhaps some text wrapping could be used on the debug window when ai_developer_tools is turned off :)
05:16<@peter1138>anyone used soap headers in asp?
05:33<LordAro>Yexo: (re your reply) yes, i realised that just now...
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05:46<dihedral>oi :-)
05:48<@Terkhen>hi dihedral
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06:30<@peter1138>guess not :p
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06:45<Eddi|zuHause>argh... burned my finger on the oven
06:47<@planetmaker>wouldn't make a difference if the temperature difference was inverted ;-)
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>i never burned my finger on liquid nitrogen yet :P
06:51<@planetmaker>that's also more difficult as it's not solid. Metal at nitrogen temperatures "helps" there...
06:51<@planetmaker>you don't burn your fingers from the oven's air either ;-)
06:52<@planetmaker>but if you try to handle dry ice...
06:52<@planetmaker>... jugle quickly ;-)
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>er... hot air is difficult, but hot water?
06:53<@planetmaker>especially if mixed with alcohol :S
06:54<SpComb>dry ice mixed with alcohol, swallow quickly?
06:55<@planetmaker>:-) cold liquids have one advantage indeed: for short contacts a steam layer forms around your hand - which acts as insulation. That advantage isn't there for hot liquids, thus it hurts quicker
06:56<@planetmaker>SpComb, makes for cool photos. But bad drinks ;-)
06:56<@planetmaker>or rather "kids, don't do this at home" ;-)
06:57<@planetmaker>with the added benefit of the drink not being diluted :-P
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07:15<fjb>Moin
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07:17<@peter1138>bah, need more memory
07:17<@peter1138>4GB is, apparently, not enough :S
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07:19<Noldo>but Bill Gates said!
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>so? the IBM founder said there might be demand for 6 computers worldwide.
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07:47<ChoHag_>I would just like to say: Bloody hell I'm going to have a baby.
07:48<ChoHag_>SWMBO is getting close to bursting point.
07:48<lugo>masseltoff :)
07:49<ChoHag_>Not sure that's appropriate...
07:50<ChoHag_>"Well done! Your life's about to go horribly, horribly wrong! Kiss your sleep goodbye."
07:56<dihedral>...
07:56<dihedral>i'd rather say, it'll become so much more rewarding ;-)
07:56<dihedral>there are a few dad's around here, i am sure they can give you some 'advice' :-D
07:57<ChoHag_>I've been getting plenty of that recently...
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>i wouldn't take any of that advice :p
07:58<@planetmaker>I've seldom heart anyone start swearing about having a baby ;-)
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>these people are either in the middle of the crazy phase, so they are crazy themselves. or they are out of it and cannot judge it properly since they are too distant from it :p
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08:01<confound>ChoHag_: the nice thing about kids is that they start small enough not to be overwhelming
08:02<confound>you don't get a 4 year old right off the bat
08:16<@peter1138>well, congratulations
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08:21<@Terkhen>congratulations ChoHag_
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08:29<__ln__>zomfg, doesn't that usually involve being within 2-meter radius of a woman?
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08:36<ChoHag_>__ln__: It's better than that. Mine's even getting started on TTD.
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08:38<__ln__>not bad, not bad
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09:07<supermop>Good morning!
09:09<@planetmaker>hi supermop
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09:13<supermop>how is germany this morning/afternoon?
09:17<@planetmaker>not bad, at least this part. No rain anymore and it's warm(er) again with only a few small clouds and slight breeze :-)
09:17<@planetmaker>good BBQ weather ;-)
09:18*Terkhen would like intense rain for a few days
09:18<dihedral>nah - please not here ^^
09:18<dihedral>i am enjoying the wheather
09:19<dihedral>but it's suppose to rain tomorrow :-(
09:19<supermop>been 80 here the past two days
09:19<supermop>soo, like 30 i guess
09:20<@planetmaker>@calc (80 - 32 ) * 5/9
09:20<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 26.6666666667
09:21<@planetmaker>that's border-line to too warm ;-)
09:21<@planetmaker>depends on humidity, though
09:23<@planetmaker>Terkhen, wrt "how much it rained" and "how much it should have rained" during the last 2 or 3 months: we should have much more rain (about twice or so)...
09:24<@planetmaker>all the berries and grapes will dry out when they're not regularily watered (hint, hint) :-P
09:28<@Terkhen>:)
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: are your clouds made of ash? :p
09:29<@planetmaker>:D Might be a bit hazy ;-) - but no plane trails visible ;-)
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>i'm probably too far south for any such thin
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>g
09:30<@Belugas>hi
09:31<@planetmaker>hi Belugas
09:32<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, I read (this morning) that they would consider to close down Berlin airports, too. But dunno whether they did...
09:32<@Terkhen>hi Belugas
09:32<@planetmaker>not that it's too far from Leipzig to Berlin as the bird flies ;-)
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>160km
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>it's not really in wind direction...
09:34<@planetmaker>hm... actually I see a plane flying in the North. So probably airspace is not (anymore) closed
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>last i heard was they were considering relieving the ban in hamburg and bremen after 6 hours being closed
09:35<@planetmaker>seems they did
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see a lot of planes on normal days either, so seing no planes right now doesn'T really tell anythnig
09:37<@Belugas>hello planetmaker, hello Terkhen :)
09:38<@planetmaker>I should see most planes which go from the North - West to Berlin as I have an unobstructed view to the Eastern skies from this office ;-)
09:39<__ln__>@seen SmatZ
09:39<@DorpsGek>__ln__: SmatZ was last seen in #openttd 2 days, 18 hours, 19 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <SmatZ> yeah
09:42<__ln__>other czech humans here atm?
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10:36<dihedral>planetmaker, :-)
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11:14<dihedral>a person who is suppose to create a new website for one of our clients claimed he needed to be admin-c, tech-c, and zone-c in order to register the webspace ...
11:15<dihedral>(the domain is hosted by us)
11:15<Rubidium>what's -c? Contact?
11:15<dihedral>yes
11:15<dihedral>he then said the client did not want to move away from us, all he needed was ftp access + a php database :-D
11:16<dihedral>"you mean a mysqldatabase?"
11:16<dihedral>"yes, with wordpress" :-D
11:16<dihedral>oh dear lord
11:17<@Terkhen>:D
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11:50<frosch123>damn, i tried todays xkcd hint, and it worked after two iterations...
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>it took me like 30 iterations or more
11:51<frosch123>must be a wise choice depending on the regular readers of it :p
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>well, that was before it was on xkcd :p
11:52<frosch123>nope, no recent edits on those page
11:53<frosch123>but apparently "open source" links to philosophy, and about every open source software (like ottd) links to "open source" at the beginning
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it doesn't work that well in german wikipedia
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11:56<Rubidium>I guess the trick is that eventually you'll reach a page that "directs" to a language first
11:57<@planetmaker>frosch123: it didn't work for me ;-)
11:57<@planetmaker>I ended up in a loop...
11:57<@planetmaker>I think I started with VfL Gummersbach (I forgot why)
11:57<Rubidium>oh, where? ;)
11:57<@planetmaker>the loop was between 'science' an 'mankind' somehow
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11:58<Rubidium>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic_language <- that loops as well
11:58<@planetmaker>but I used the German wiki. Maybe that's the 'mistake'
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11:59<Eddi|zuHause>hm... when i retry now, i get into the same loop planetmaker mentions
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>must have done something wrong inbetween
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12:00<Eddi|zuHause>yep, seems i took the second link on one page
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12:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22490 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/include/squirrel.h: -Fix [FS#4623]: [Squirrel] Fix compilation under MinGW-w64. (JGR)
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12:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22491 /trunk/src/os/windows/crashlog_win.cpp: -Fix [FS#4623]: [Windows] Generate crashlogs correctly in binaries created with MinGW-w64. (JGR)
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12:46<Eddi|zuHause>btw. i think xkcd is wrong... i know lots of things without going to wikipedia immediately
12:47<@peter1138>you != randall
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>you sure? :p
12:48<@peter1138>100%
12:49<@peter1138>(he hangs around in #minecraft)
12:49<@peter1138>or did
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>[NFORENUM] firs.nfo
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>Error on sprite 130.
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>//!!Error (68): An action 8 must precede action 4.
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>something is wrong...
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13:07<Eddi|zuHause>hm... even the old firs won't build
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>something is really wrong
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13:15<Eddi|zuHause>ah... stupid error of mine
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13:18<andythenorth>hello
13:21<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
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13:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no secondary industry closure is evil with yacd
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>you must supply even the most remote factory
13:41<andythenorth>and more of them keep popping up, spamming the map :P
13:41<andythenorth>and if you enable closure, most of them close before you can get service to them
13:42*andythenorth wonders
13:42<andythenorth>industry closure is an evil problem
13:42-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
13:42<andythenorth>normally I say 'newgrf fix please'
13:42<andythenorth>but for this feature I wonder if trunk should be fixed
13:48<@Terkhen>http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/Terkhen%20Transport%2c%202213-04-07.png <--- they really hate visitors in this junk yard
13:49<@planetmaker>hehe :-)
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14:02<andythenorth>hmm
14:02<andythenorth>new industry var: date of last closure for industry type x
14:02<andythenorth>(or days since closure, it's about the same either way)
14:03<andythenorth>this var *would have* to be updated as soon as an industry instance closes, or there would still be a possibility of simultaneous closure when running monthly prod. change cb
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14:12<Eddi|zuHause>suggestions: industries check whether the associated town has a rating for any company, if yes => close after 5 years no service, else => don't close
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14:13<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: interesting approach
14:13<andythenorth>what are the benefits in your view?
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: areas of the map that you have not touched yet will not be empty by the time you get there
14:14<andythenorth>so you protect industries where you have routes
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>no, industries are protected where you _don't_ have routes
14:15<andythenorth>ok
14:15<andythenorth>interesting
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14:16<Eddi|zuHause>hmm... updating a patch from r59xx... good/bad idea? :p
14:17*Alberth considers Eddi old enough to make that decision
14:18<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I don't see an existing var for rating
14:18<@Terkhen>depends, do you have anything better to do with your time? :P
14:18<andythenorth>maybe it's 80+
14:18<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: there should be already such a variable
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>i have no clue about town variables
14:19<andythenorth>var 2E
14:19<andythenorth>in the 80+
14:19<frosch123>yes, AE
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>i don't even find town variables in the newgrf wiki
14:23<andythenorth>cities
14:24<@Terkhen>they are cleverly hidden :)
14:24<andythenorth>hmm
14:24<frosch123>who looks in the wiki?
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>of course i won't find "towns" when they are "cities"...
14:25<frosch123>source code never lies
14:25<andythenorth>so this means once you start serving a town, you have to quickly connect all industries or lose them
14:25<andythenorth>but if you're town rating is in the ground, you're screwed :)
14:25<frosch123>andythenorth: depends on the definition of quickly
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: 5 years is plenty of time
14:25<frosch123>the usual "mass closures" are completely subjective, as they are actually only a small percentage of hundreds of industries
14:26<andythenorth>not if the source of supply is half the map away
14:26<andythenorth>frosch123: I meant to revisit FIRS closure
14:26<andythenorth>I wondered if it was using the monthly prod change for closure
14:27<andythenorth>and if it was, whether using random prod change only might be better
14:27<frosch123>you should never use the monthly cb for closure :)
14:28<andythenorth>looks like I'm using random already
14:28<andythenorth>so random, and then it uses a further random chance
14:28<andythenorth>but still I get the sense of a mass die off, even if empirically it's not the case
14:29<andythenorth>maybe I should use the town ID in some way in the calculation...
14:29<andythenorth>meaning some areas become ghost towns
14:29<andythenorth>and others don't
14:30<andythenorth>meh
14:30<andythenorth>lets convert FIRS to nml, then someone else can solve this :)
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14:44<supermop>Braun stuff
14:46<supermop>going to try to get a fan
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14:59*andythenorth is uninspired by the game today and will be voting 'pub'
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15:05<JamesGo>Is it possible to run OpenTTD with the GUI and type commands into the Linux terminal like a dedicated server?
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15:09<@planetmaker>you have the console for that
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15:11<JamesGo>I want to automate screenshot-taking to make a timelapse video, a BASH script seemed the best way to do it
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>we should implement a dbus interface ;)
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>JamesGo: have you checked the admin interface?
15:13<JamesGo>No, I'll look into that
15:15<frosch123>you could also start a dedicated server locally (without advertising) and join your own server
15:16<Chris_Booth>the big problem you will have JamesGo is the size of the screen shot
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>suggestion: you watch the autosave directory, each time a new autosave appears, you load that into a (dedicated, but non-null video driver) openttd instance, make a giant screenshot and quit
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>that way you get monthly screenshots without disturbing your own gameplay
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15:21<JamesGo>That's a good idea
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>there's also a daily autosave patch if you want to go there ;)
15:23<SpComb>the network client sounds like the best idea
15:26<@planetmaker>it will disconnect with giant screenshots
15:26<@planetmaker>eddi's suggestion to load autosaves doesn't have that issue
15:27<@peter1138>who was talking giant screenshots?
15:27<@peter1138>http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/flat/rounwrld.jpg
15:27<@peter1138>^ proof that the world cannot be round
15:27<JamesGo>I think it'll be a normal screenshot, for a video giant screenshots won't be nessecary
15:29<SpComb>64x64 map with giant screenshots? :)
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16:07<Eddi|zuHause>non-giant screenshots are quite less viable for timelapse. you need an "interesting" location, and it must be the same location over longer periods of time
16:07<@Alberth>or shift a small step each shot ;)
16:09*Alberth ponders whether one could detect 'interesting' places by monitoring build activities
16:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22492 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix [FS#4624] (r21642, r22328): Only try to insert implicit orders for ground vehicles. Aircraft may reach unscheduled terminals when skippnig orders etc.
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: but you need to get at least one "before" screenshot in that case
16:12<@Alberth>yeah, it is less trivial
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>cutting out "interesting" sections from the giant screenshot may be more useful, but could be quite difficult
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16:19<TWerkhoven>what about making a screenshot of every construction activity, centered on the event
16:19<TWerkhoven>then you could just cut out the boring screenshots
16:19<__ln__>is there a channel for talking about openttd in italian, using mirc colors?
16:20<@planetmaker>TWerkhoven: *every*?
16:20<@planetmaker>That'd be spamming your HDD VERY fast
16:20<@planetmaker>and where's the construction activity of "mass build signal" or "mass release trains"?
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16:27<TWerkhoven>have to admit i never checked size of screenshots not using them myself
16:29<@planetmaker>screenshot size, of course, varies. And a single one is not that big. But every action... That sums up very quickly ;-)
16:31<@planetmaker>TWerkhoven: you ask for a screenshot rate of a few fps ;-)
16:31<@planetmaker>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/220/
16:32<@Alberth>that's called a movie :)
16:32<@planetmaker>:-)
16:32<@SmatZ>it's like watching the matrix :)
16:33<@SmatZ>some watch the video, some are fine with green text :)
16:33<@planetmaker>:-D
16:33<@planetmaker>and the pattern shows
16:33<@planetmaker>like in our lab course we once watched satellite TV on the oscilloscope. Yeah... :-P
16:34<@planetmaker>like you see the voltage spikes of the frame transitions ;-)
16:34<@planetmaker>quite a repetitive curve
16:34<@SmatZ>:-D
16:35<TWerkhoven>:)
16:36<TWerkhoven>yeah i can see how i would need a lot of space for that
16:37<TWerkhoven>and fast hdd's possibly
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16:38<Eddi|zuHause>cool... comments in table/sprites.h still talk about .c files :p
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16:53<@planetmaker>indeed
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17:34<Eddi|zuHause>hm... weird... landscape_grid.html says m3 for level crossing has 8 bits used, but MakeRoadCrossing only sets m3 to the railtype, which is 4 bits only.
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>ah, it also calls SetRoadOwner, which sets the other bits of m3
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18:58<Eddi|zuHause>hm... docs/landscape.html explicitly declares "road depot: m5 bit 7 set, bit 6 clear", that should mean i can safely introduce a new case "both bit 6 and bit 7 set"?
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