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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-05-27

---Logopened Fri May 27 00:00:12 2011
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01:54<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: yes, it's missing that. As I didn't add a new action5 entry... I considered grids as GUI sprites
01:57<@planetmaker> <-- but of course the history can tell you ;-) @ Eddi|zuHause
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03:29<dihedral>good morning :-)
03:34<@Terkhen>good morning
03:36<dihedral>i got an email from the one client - again asking for the PHP Database... :-D
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03:39<@peter1138>PHP database, eh?
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03:55<dihedral>yep, and the database again with wordpress :-P
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04:27<@planetmaker>moin LordAro & dihedral
04:28<LordAro>hi :)
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04:47<@peter1138>i'd rather have a bowl of coco pops
05:28<ChoHag>Marmite on toast for me.
05:28<@peter1138>banned in denmark apparently
05:29<ChoHag>Sucks to be them.
05:29*ChoHag -> kitchen
05:29<ChoHag>Bah. My wife keeps stealing my slippers.
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>hm... fishing grounds not delivering the nearest fishing harbour is kinda silly
05:37<@planetmaker>given the large fishery fleets fish anywhere they like, it's not that far-fetched
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>hm... it's not actually the destination, there are too few fishing harbours...
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>21 fishing grounds and 3 fishing harbours on a 512x512 map
05:43<@Terkhen>it is realistic; for example european fishing harbours are supplied by sudanese fishing grounds
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but those are likely to be connected by water as well ;)
05:45<@Terkhen>oh, that's a good point :D
06:07<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: two FIRS translation issues, the hardware store doesn't have a translation, and the station name "Schmiede" misses an "e"
06:08<@planetmaker>hm ok
06:09<@planetmaker> :-P
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07:25<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> <-- but of course the history can tell you ;-) @ Eddi|zuHause <-- yes, i got that far, but this doesn't cover the part of extending nforenum, which throws a "fatal error" here
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07:28<Eddi|zuHause>that looks like gibberish...
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07:29<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, doesn't really matter, as i can work around that, just the makefile is useless
07:30<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: why gibberish? it's only a tiny change in data.cpp
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but it's all hex...
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>and i don't have a nforenum checkout anyway
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>and i can't bother
07:31<@planetmaker>you would need a grfcodec checkout :-P
07:31<@planetmaker>it's not separate from nforenum
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>whatever :p
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07:32<Eddi|zuHause>completely different, in table/sprites.h there is OPENTTD_SPRITE_COUNT = 160, but what sprites does this count? after all, openttd.grf has way more sprites than that
07:32<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: that's the # of GUI sprites
07:33<@planetmaker>the respective action5 entry of openttd GUI sprites
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>ah, so it's no concern of me
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>now i just need to figure out drawing
07:35<@planetmaker>level crossings, right?
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>well, most of it is already in the old patch, just the places where to apply are much different
07:35<@planetmaker>look in road_cmd.cpp. They're handled there - if you didn't know ;-)
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>and then there's the newgrf railtypes
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>i did know ;)
07:36<@planetmaker>there are separate functions to handle traditional and overlay. the latter is called from the first
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>yep, i have read speedily over the code, and had to quickly edit out stuff like "GetRailAxis" calls
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>but i was right now actually hunting down a crossing-un-reservation bug that was in the adjacent crossing patch as well, but it was too difficult to trigger, so i didn't bother
07:49<@planetmaker>so... you actually edit two patches concurrently, adjacent and diagonal level crossings? ;-)
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>well, one is on top of the other
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>the old diagonal crossings patch had some rudimentary code to invoke two crossings at once, but it didn't work out quite as well
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>so i replaced that part with my own patch
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08:22<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
08:36<@Terkhen>hmm... my trucks are starting to jam everywhere
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: something's weird, i got two towns called "Peenesee"
08:37<@Terkhen>why is the kilimanjaro so slow when loading/unloading?
08:41<@planetmaker>also the amount of 'e' seems funny ;-)
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08:49<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: more so when you have a "Peenesee Baggersee" :p
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>but i thought the town name generator is supposed to weed out duplicates by itself
08:50<@planetmaker>yes, it is
08:51<@planetmaker>If it doesn't, it's likely it comes up with the same name via two independent paths...
08:51<@planetmaker>I wonder, though, how
08:52<@planetmaker>It's not like it's a very complicated pattern I use: <Prefix> Part1Part2 <Postfix>
08:52<@planetmaker>where Prefix and Postfix are optional
08:53<@planetmaker>but I shall look at that
08:53<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: you use random names exclusively, do you?
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08:54<Eddi|zuHause>worse: version 0.1.0 instead of 0.2.0
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>what did he do now?
09:11<fjb>Moin Belugas.
09:11<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: You scared planetmaker away.
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09:25<@Belugas>hi hi fjb :)
09:32<andythenorth>say 'peenesee' in uk english - phonetically :P
09:32<andythenorth>Terkhen: slow? Not sure.
09:32<andythenorth>Perhaps the game should show loading speed in buy menu
09:32<@Terkhen>hmm... maybe it loads at the same speed than other trucks, but that is slow for its capacity
09:33<andythenorth>newgrf authors put work into something most players don't know exist
09:33<andythenorth>maybe I never set it accurately :P
09:33<andythenorth>when the refit cost is $0, I slightly think it should be hidden
09:33<andythenorth>although it will cause bug reports
09:33*andythenorth -> back to work
09:35<@Terkhen>what is the relation between refit cost and loading speed?
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09:38-!-planetmaker is "Ingo von Borstel" on @#openttd #openttdcoop.devzone @+#openttdcoop.stable @+#openttdcoop +#openDune @+#wwottdgd
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>none ;)
09:47<@planetmaker>sorry, Eddi|zuHause :-) mass-closing of windows closed too much. Not much changed in the name generation for random names, thus 0.1.0 or 0.2.0 doesn't make much of a difference
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09:55<Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> say 'peenesee' in uk english - phonetically :P <-- sorry, i can't think in phonetic english
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10:03<@Yexo>@kban crystalblue66
10:03-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*crystal@] by Yexo
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10:03<Eddi|zuHause>have i suggested a filter for the load game window yet?
10:05<@Yexo>don't know, can't remember such a suggestion
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10:10<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: I think it's the same conotation, if you pronounce it German. But... well.
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10:18<Eddi|zuHause>ok, then sorry, i don't have the humour of a fourthgrader...
10:19<@planetmaker>yeah, that ^
10:33<@planetmaker> <--hm... such transition in tile colour doesn't look to bad either. If it wasn't that rough-edged
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11:26<dihedral>planetmaker, lovely :-)
11:27<@planetmaker>in this case: "illegal (out of bounds) set of newgrf parameters" :-P
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11:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r22494 /trunk/src/airport_gui.cpp: -Fix: airport preview sprite can depend on the layout, so update the cached SpriteID when the layout changes
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11:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22495 /trunk/src/airport_gui.cpp: -Fix: The layout selectors of the airport build GUI did not latch properly
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12:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: penis-y
12:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r22496 /trunk/src/newgrf_airport.cpp: -Fix: callback result for airport layout name was incorrectly used
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12:23<__ln__>bicycling in london:
12:26<@peter1138>stupid rider
12:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22497 /trunk/src/airport_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Simplify button handling in airport build GUI
12:28<Wolf01>aren't they able to paint straight road lines?
12:32<Wolf01>nah, ignore me
12:32<__ln__>/ignore Wolf01
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12:37<JVassie>whats a .pnfo file for?
12:38<@Yexo>it's a nfo file that still has to be preprocessed (usually by gpp)
12:38<JVassie>and why woudl you use it instead of a normal .nfo file?
12:39<JVassie>just trying to get my head around it
12:39<JVassie>i fear the example you pasted for me
12:39<JVassie>is too complex for me :p
12:40<@Yexo>did you manage to get that working at all?
12:41<JVassie>afraid not
12:41<@planetmaker>JVassie: worry about pnfo when you got nfo working. Like I suggested last night with heqs
12:41<JVassie>problem is
12:41<JVassie>heqs has a bunch of .pnfo files
12:41<@Yexo>yes, but you don't need those
12:41<@Yexo>as planetmaker explained last night
12:42<@planetmaker>JVassie: that's why I told you to use the nfo file.
12:42<@Yexo>you can download the preprocessed nfo file instead
12:43<JVassie>was tired last night :p
12:44<JVassie>it worked
12:44<@Yexo>that is the simplest I can make that example
12:45<JVassie>ok will take a look in a sec
12:45<JVassie>have made a heqs.grf
12:46<JVassie>and it loaded ingame
12:46<JVassie>phew :p
12:48<JVassie>08 "DFLT"
12:48<JVassie>not an action 8 i presume?
12:48<@planetmaker>if something compiles chances usually are not that bad that it'll at least load ;-)
12:48<@Yexo>no,that's still part of the action0
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>what's the quickest way to make canal building factor 8 less expensive, without affecting anything else?
12:49<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: a base cost grf?
12:49<@Yexo>-1 * 0 00 <- start of the action= action number * length action_type
12:49<@Yexo>action_type == 0, so it's an action 0
12:49<@Yexo>the next action begins when you see a * again
12:49<JVassie>right ok
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: which one?
12:50<JVassie>so in this case the next action is an action 2, righ?
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: and which parameter?
12:50<JVassie>followed by an action 3
12:51<JVassie>no action 1 to define sprites?
12:51<@Yexo>this example only uses a few sprites from the baseset
12:52<JVassie>08 "DFLT"
12:52<JVassie> refers to property 8, correct?
12:52<JVassie>and i presume DFLT is a class of station?
12:52<@Yexo>08 = property 8, which is D-word sized, so 4 bytes
12:52<@Yexo>"DFLT" is exactly 4 bytes, that's the value of the property
12:52<@Yexo>as you can see property 8 is indeed "station class"
12:52<JVassie>got that open :)
12:53<JVassie>the lien above
12:53<JVassie>-1 * 0 00 04 \b3 \b1 00
12:53<JVassie>so action 0
12:53<JVassie>then the 04 means?
12:53<@Yexo>feature 4, modifies 3 properties, modifies 1 station, first id to modify is 0
12:54<JVassie>generic action 0 stuff, i should knwo that :p
12:54<JVassie>for example instead of \b3 i couldve used just 03 yeh?
12:54<@Yexo>when you use values above 10 it's easier to read though
12:55<@Yexo>compare \b12 vs 0C
12:55<JVassie>unless you have a hex to dec calculator handy :p
12:55<JVassie>i see what you mean though
12:55<@Yexo>even when you have one handy it's easier not to have to calculate it
12:55<@planetmaker>JVassie: it's not a matter of _writing_.
12:55<JVassie>i jest :)
12:55<@planetmaker>It's a matter of understanding at a glance what you wrote 4 weeks ago
12:56<JVassie>so then 09 02, property 9 which defines sprite layout, and 2 tiles
12:57<JVassie>in this case layouts mean direction or?
12:57<@Yexo>both tiles only have a groundsprite and no spritedata
12:57<@Yexo>a layout is a combination of sprites which to draw on a single tile
12:57<JVassie>makes sense
12:57<@Yexo>for chips there is for example a layout "rail tile without buffers", another "rail tile with buffers on north end", another "rail tile with buffers on south end", etc.
12:58<JVassie>ah ok
12:58<@Yexo>that is a magic groundtile number
12:58<@Yexo>it actually draws the correct railsprite
12:58<@Yexo>don't try to find that in the documentation, you won't :p
12:58<JVassie>hehe thought not
12:58<JVassie>how would i modify this example to a very basic piece of platform and put it ingame, essentially?
12:59<@Yexo>to put it in-game just add an action8 at the top
12:59<JVassie>take for example that bit of platform in the picture
12:59<@Yexo>to add some other sprites use the example I gave yesterday
13:00<JVassie>so take the example we had just now, to compile it needs no other files at all? just the nfo?
13:00<JVassie>ok, great
13:00<JVassie>will try that first
13:01<JVassie>just writing an action 8
13:01<@Yexo>-1 * 0 08 07 "GRFID_HERE" "your grf name" 00 "your description" 00
13:02<JVassie>why the -1 btw?
13:02<JVassie>to make it obvious it is to be renumbered?
13:02<@Yexo>it's <sprite-number>
13:02<@Yexo>doesn't mather what you fill in there as nforenum will correct it
13:02<@Yexo>exactly, -1 is an obvious dummy value
13:02<@Yexo>same reason I use 0 for <length>
13:02<JVassie>thought as much :)
13:03<JVassie>07 is latest version now?
13:03<@Yexo>be back later, good luck getting it to work :)
13:04<JVassie>thanks for your help Yexo
13:05<JVassie>NFO file missing header lines and version info
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13:07<JVassie>next problem, OTTD doesnt pick it up in the list of newgrfs
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13:14<JVassie>sigh :(
13:16<Eddi|zuHause><JVassie> NFO file missing header lines and version info <-- nforenum will fill those in for you
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13:24<@Yexo><JVassie> next problem, OTTD doesnt pick it up in the list of newgrfs <- start openttd with -d grf=5 and look at the output
13:24<@Yexo>if that doesn't work, try -d grf=9
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22498 /trunk/src/lang/simplified_chinese.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 1 changes by Gavin
13:45<JVassie>Yexo, you mean start it from the command line?
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13:48<Eddi|zuHause>in the parameter gui, when you click a disabled [<] button, it still animates the pressed state.
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>also small suggestion: when newgrf developer tools is active, have ctrl+click on set parameter open the text window for typing in parameters, even if action 14 defines them
13:51<@Yexo>double-click already opentd that text window
13:51<@Yexo>IIRC it's not dependent on the newgrf developer tools setting, but I'm not sure about that
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13:53<Eddi|zuHause>yes, for each single parameter individually. but not all parameters in one window, like before
13:54<@Yexo>ah, that one
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>and it should better be single click
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>makes it more consistent with the settings
13:54<@Yexo>single click selects them to show the description in the panel
13:54<@Yexo>you can't "select" an advanced setting
14:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r22499 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_gui.cpp newgrf_gui.cpp): -Fix: don't lower the arrow buttons in the newgrf/AI parameter windows if they're clicked when disabled
14:04<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: I don't see a reason why the old method for setting newgrf parameters should still be available
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>for quickly setting lots of parameters?
14:05<@Yexo>quit game, edit config file, start game again
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14:18<andythenorth>guten abend
14:22<JVassie>Yexo, what outptu am i looking for?
14:23<@Yexo>any lines that contain the name of your grf
14:24<JVassie>there are two
14:24<@Yexo>well, what do those two lines say?
14:25<JVassie>hmm they got overwritten
14:25<JVassie>i guess its easier to test if i dotn have any other grfs in my directory
14:26<JVassie>trying grf=9
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14:27<JVassie>is there a reason you think that it wont load in ottd yexo?
14:28<@Yexo>if I would know why it doesn't load I'd have told you
14:28<JVassie>running r22491
14:29<JVassie>grf=9 is still running output
14:29<@Yexo>can you pastebin the complete nfo?
14:29<@Alberth>hello andy
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14:37<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 21164/74/7
14:37<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 40.8571428571
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (21164/74/7-40)*74
14:37<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 63.4285714286
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (21164/74/7-40)*74*7
14:37<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 444.0
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 21608/74
14:39<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 292
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 21608/74/7
14:39<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 41.7142857143
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 40*74*7
14:40<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 20720
14:40*andythenorth seeks a train set
14:40<andythenorth>and only finds UKRS 2 or NARS 2
14:41<andythenorth>am I missing another good one?
14:52<@Alberth>I'd recommend the default set, but I don't know whether that qualifies as 'good' to you
14:52<fjb>UKRS 2 is not complete yet.
14:53<@Alberth>completeness was not a criterium :p
14:53<fjb>But it helps to make it a good one.
14:53<@Alberth>definitely :)
14:54<fjb>What happened to the french set?
14:55<fjb>And a german set was also started, but I fear MB scared them away.
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15:00<@Terkhen>and the spain set is on a standstill :(
15:01<@Yexo>first pseudosprite is missing
15:01<@Yexo>add -1 * 0 00 00 00 00 before the action8
15:02<@Yexo>the first sprite must contain the total number of sprites, but openttd just ignores the content of the first sprite
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: you mean the guys that made sprites awfully close to MBs and then claimed they didn't copy them?
15:02<@Yexo>currently your action8 is the first sprite which is ignored, hence openttd doesn't find any action8
15:02<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: May be, but how different will the sprites look at that scale?
15:03<JVassie>ahhh ok Yexo
15:03<JVassie>makes sense :)
15:03<andythenorth>Alberth: default set lacks FIRS support
15:03<JVassie>woohoo ottd found it
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: 256^(32*12) is an extremely high number :p
15:03<JVassie>and it works :)
15:04<@Yexo>congratz :)
15:04<@Alberth>andythenorth: there is old wagons new cargos, and the opengfx train extension
15:04<JVassie>thanks :D
15:04<JVassie>first working grf
15:04<JVassie>from nfo anyway
15:04<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: A pink 01 would not look quite right...
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15:05<JVassie>how easy is it to change the name of the station tile i added?
15:05<JVassie>action 4?
15:05<andythenorth>just change it :)
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: still, each "genuine" artist has his very own style regarding choice of colours and shading
15:05<@Yexo>just add a single action4
15:06<JVassie>-1 * 0 04 04 01 01 00 "Name of Station Tile" 00
15:06<JVassie>is that right?
15:06<JVassie>action 4
15:06<@Yexo>let's see
15:07<JVassie>04 for stations
15:07<JVassie>01 for language
15:07<@Yexo>language id should be 7F
15:07<JVassie>01 for 1 string to change
15:07<JVassie>ah, 7F for any
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: so even if you only count variations of 4 colours that might be "similar", that leaves you with 4^(32*12), which is still an extremely large number
15:07<JVassie>good idea :)
15:07<@Yexo>always use 7F first and more specific IDs for translations
15:07<JVassie>and is the last bit ok?
15:08<@Yexo>the rest looks fine :)
15:08<JVassie>00 "Name" 00
15:08<JVassie>ill plonk that in now
15:08<@Yexo>ehm, sorry, no
15:08<JVassie>in terms of order
15:08<@Yexo>to set a new station name you have to use 0xC5xx as id
15:08<@Yexo>so FF as language id
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: also there was this guy who made a "prussian rail set", but he stopped after 2 engines, even though everybody (including MB) encouraged him to go on
15:09<JVassie>-1 * 0 04 04 FF then
15:09<@Yexo>it'll become like this: -1 * 0 04 04 FF 01 00 C5 "station name" 00
15:09<JVassie>ah ok
15:10<JVassie>has to have C5 after the id
15:10<JVassie>should ti come after the action 3?
15:10<@Yexo>you can replace "00 C5" with \wxC500 if you want to
15:10<fjb>Yes, but I don't think we can talk Andy or Pikka into starting another big set...
15:10<@Yexo>after the action0, doesn't matter if it's before or after the action3
15:10<@Yexo>at least not for openttd, no idea what ttdpatch requires
15:10<JVassie>lets see how we do :p
15:11<JVassie>AWESOME! :D
15:12<JVassie>ear to ear grin right now >.<
15:13<JVassie>so i guess the next step is adding my own sprites in, would you say?
15:14<JVassie>ill compare the two examples you gave me
15:14<JVassie>or actually
15:14<JVassie>if i use the second example and add the files in
15:14<JVassie>should work if i keep the action 8 yeah?
15:15*andythenorth needs to adjust FIRS
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15:18<andythenorth>Alberth: question about industry numbers at map gen
15:18<JVassie>Error: Encountered invalid character looking for literal byte. While readign sprite:2
15:18<andythenorth>when some industries aren't available yet, will the game generate more of other types?
15:18<andythenorth>(I think it does)
15:19<@Alberth>I think so too.
15:19<andythenorth>makes adjusting the probability hard
15:19<@Alberth>ie the program does not know when an industry becomes available afaik, it could be decades away
15:19<JVassie> si the full nfo
15:20<andythenorth>Alberth: I'm not sure what the correct solution would be
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: TILE_TEST_1 needs ""?
15:20<@Alberth>ditch the current newgrf industry stuff? :p
15:20<@Yexo>JVassie: replace TILE_TEST_1 by 00
15:21<@Yexo>it occurs twice in the code
15:21<andythenorth>Alberth: and just use default industries?
15:21<JVassie>guess thats a reference from part of the .pnfo system?
15:22<@Yexo>yep, there was a "#define TILE_TEST_1 00" in another file, which made gpp replace it automatically
15:22<@Yexo>that's very nice if you ever want to change the id
15:22<@Alberth>andythenorth: you want a more dynamic probability, I'd like more control over when an industry closes
15:22<@Yexo>you only have to change it in a single location
15:22<@Alberth>andythenorth: I am sure there are more problems :)
15:22<andythenorth>Alberth: what control over closure would you want?
15:23<JVassie>ottd found it ok
15:23<JVassie>just testing
15:23<JVassie>i added the action 4 in from previous nfo
15:23<JVassie>awesome :D
15:24<@Alberth>The game should control opening/closing imho, the program has the overview
15:24<JVassie>one problem, it only appears in the / direction, not the \ direction
15:25<andythenorth>Alberth: I'd gladly take that suggestion
15:25<@Alberth>or even just allow hinting, ie now you cannot get rid of 'old' industries
15:26<@Yexo>JVassie: yes, I only coded it for the / direction
15:26<andythenorth>I am bored of trying to control closure
15:26<andythenorth>it's non-solvable with newgrf
15:26<JVassie>makes sense
15:26<JVassie>now to understand what the code does :D
15:26<@Yexo>there are 8 layouts in the code, the odd layouts are for the / direction, the even layouts for the \ direction
15:26<@Alberth>JVassie: the other direction is left as an exercise for you :p
15:26<andythenorth>and I am not going to try and tweak probability-at-map-gen anymore because the results vary by date too much
15:26<@Yexo>I grouped the layouts in groups of 2 (so 1 /, 1\)
15:26<@Yexo>every second layout has only a groundsprite followed by 80 (=end of layout)
15:27<@Alberth>andythenorth: that sounds like a sane decision
15:27<JVassie>ah yes i see
15:27<andythenorth>Alberth: it means FIRS sucks though
15:27<andythenorth>whatever date I start, I get a sucky industry distribution
15:28<@Alberth>the best you can do probably is do it 'right' for one start date
15:28<@Alberth>but then it is a matter of time until the counts are off again, perhaps
15:28<andythenorth>ok, FIRS starts in 1880, because that's when I start :P
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15:28<andythenorth>^ randomness is not always good for generating good game effects
15:29<andythenorth>15 theatres in one town at game start
15:29<@Alberth>we must spend a fortune on culture :p
15:29<andythenorth>probably vegas
15:29<andythenorth>it's pretty common
15:30<@Alberth>I doubt house distribution got much attention
15:30<@Alberth>and so did the fios.* code recently :p
15:30<andythenorth>especially pre-1930
15:30<@Alberth>too much C oriented :)
15:31<JVassie>Yexo, next question I guess, how do i determine the offsets and extents?
15:31<JVassie>counting the pixels in MS paint?
15:31<@Yexo>than see if it worked and adjust if they're incorrect
15:31<@Yexo>press ctrl+b in game to see the bounding boxes
15:31<@Alberth>andythenorth: that sounds logical, as the houses are probably balanced for starting in 1950
15:31<andythenorth>JVassie: use the newgrf developer tools to align them better
15:31<@Yexo>(and yes, that's boring and a lot of work)
15:32<@Yexo>it's one of the worst jobs of writing nfo code imo
15:32<andythenorth>there's a sprite picker + aligner
15:32<JVassie>i was going to first try adding the other direction
15:32<JVassie>as /
15:32<JVassie>sorry \ rather
15:32<@Yexo>in that case you can swap the x and y extends
15:33<@Yexo>not sure if that'll work for all offsets too
15:33<andythenorth>why did I add ironworks to FIRS? It's stupid
15:33<JVassie>one problem
15:33<JVassie>there is no \ direction for the paltform
15:33<@Yexo>I drew the / one in paint
15:34<@Yexo>I'm sure you can do the other direction :p
15:34<JVassie>ive noticed some of the graphics, the blue boundign boxes extend
15:34<JVassie>past the edge of the sprite
15:34<JVassie>any reason?
15:34<@Yexo>that doesn't matter
15:35<@Yexo>you can convert all the white to blue if you want
15:35<JVassie>ok no worries
15:35<@Yexo>only the offsets and sizes in the nfo matter, those lines: -1 sprites/graphics/groundtiles.png 10 10 09 31 64 -31 0
15:35<@Yexo>if you use the -c parameter with grfcodec it'll strip any extra blue anyway
15:37<JVassie>do you need to?
15:37<JVassie>i flipped the sprite and put it underneath
15:38<@Yexo>the extra blue is there because the blue boxes are the same for several sprites. Some of the sprites are bigger than others so the boxes are made to accommodate the largest sprites
15:38<@Yexo>to make it easier for myself I used the same offsets/sizes in the real sprite definitions
15:38<@Yexo>normally that would make the filesize of the final grf somewhat bigger since all the extra blue would be encoded in the grf
15:39<@Yexo>hence the -c flag for grfcodec, which makes grfcodec strip the extra blue where it can
15:39<JVassie>ah ok
15:39<@Yexo>total result: less work because there were less cases where I had to try and figure out the correct offset, same grf filesize
15:39<JVassie>so offset is the distance..?
15:39<JVassie>which distance? :p
15:39<JVassie>the first sprite you defined
15:39<@Yexo>from the top middle of the tile
15:39<JVassie>had offset 00 00 00
15:40<@Yexo>hmm, perhaps top left
15:40<JVassie>top left makes more sense i guess
15:40<@Yexo>no, it's top middle
15:40<andythenorth>top middle
15:40<@Yexo>note that the real sprites also have an offset
15:41<@Yexo>-1 sprites/graphics/groundtiles.png 10 10 09 31 64 -31 0 <- the -31 is the x-offset
15:41<@Yexo>so 0 + -31 = -31 xoffset
15:41<andythenorth>x and y in game are rotated
15:41<@Yexo>middle = 31, so aligned to left
15:41<@Yexo>or something like that
15:41<andythenorth>(x and y are rotated sometimes is more accurate)
15:42<JVassie>the offsets arent from the edge of the file?
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15:43<@Yexo>I can't explain that very well
15:43<@Yexo>just play with the value a bit and see for yourself what the results are
15:44<JVassie>oh hang on
15:44<JVassie>think im looking at the wrong thing
15:45<JVassie>00 00 00 // x/y/z offset
15:45<JVassie>10 05 04 // x/y/z extent
15:45<JVassie>is what im looking at
15:45<@Yexo>that is correct
15:46<JVassie>not these lines
15:46<JVassie>-1 sprites/groundtiles.png 10 10 09 31 64 -31 0
15:46<JVassie>-1 sprites/groundtiles.png 80 10 09 31 64 -31 0
15:46<JVassie>-1 sprites/buffer.png 10 06 09 35 64 -31 -4
15:46<JVassie>-1 sprites/buffer.png 80 10 09 31 64 -31 0
15:46<@Yexo>both of these lines contain offsets
15:47<@Yexo>the first lines (<JVassie> 00 00 00 // x/y/z offset) are for the bounding box
15:47<ChoHag>Heh. I've been playing with a pointless half million loan for over 50 years...
15:47<JVassie>i guess the first 'set' i pasted refer to offsets within the boundign box, whilst the second 'set' refer to offsets in the sprite file?
15:47<@Yexo>you can see the bounding boxes when you press ctrl+b
15:47<JVassie>as the file was originally though
15:47<@Yexo>not an offset "within the bounding box", but an offset "off the bounding box"
15:48<JVassie>surely it needs 3 sprites from within the buffers.png file?
15:48<JVassie>unless the buffer sprites are same at both ends?
15:48<JVassie>heh which they are :p
15:48<JVassie>just checked
15:48<@Yexo>only in that testcase
15:49<@Yexo>for that I also drew a very simple (and very ugly) buffer
15:49<JVassie>looks good enough to me mate ;)
15:49<@Yexo>later andy has drawn some nicer looking buffers which differ per side
15:50<@Yexo>this was the original file
15:50<JVassie>i have the one off the repository
15:50<@Yexo> this was the groundtiles.png which I tested with
15:51<@Yexo>but the locations of the sprites haven't changed, so the later versions will work fine
15:51<JVassie>right worked out xpos and ypos in paint
15:52<JVassie>ysize and xsize too
15:53<JVassie>now offsets :x
15:54<JVassie>well, xrel and yrel particularly
15:54<JVassie>-31 4 for both
15:55<JVassie>well -31 4 for the platform, -31 0 for the buffer
15:55<JVassie>my bad
15:56<JVassie>cant see how the -31 and 4 are got though
15:57<JVassie>xrel and yrel
15:57<JVassie>These two numbers will probably become the bane of your existence.
15:57<JVassie>TTD stores a single point for every sprite. xrel and yrel specify how far right and down (respectively) to go from the TTD point to the upper-left hand corner of the sprite.
15:57<JVassie>Halving xsize and ysize and negating the results produces a decent starting point for these values, and further adjustments may be done manually, with NFOEditor, or (in TTDPatch 2.0.1 alpha 69 and later) with the GRFAuthorHelperWindow.
15:57<JVassie>ill keep -31 4 for the other direction and see what it looks like :p
15:58<@Yexo>the sprite aligned is very useful for correcting those
15:58<@Yexo>andy linked to it earlier
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16:10<ashledombos>hello, it seems i have many problems with my wiki account it always says me i have no messages, i don't receive any notification since january, my page appears as empty even though it's not
16:10<ashledombos>does it bother if i recreate a new account ?
16:10<ashledombos>correction: it always says me i have "new" messages
16:11<@Yexo>ashledombos: nobody will care if you create a second account to test with
16:11<@Yexo>so please do :)
16:11<ashledombos>ok thank you :)
16:14<ashledombos>Yexo: since when does this kind of SSO exists ?
16:14<ashledombos>i don't remember there was one :)
16:19<@Yexo>it's been there for 2 years or so now
16:19<ashledombos>oh ok
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16:29<JVassie>ill fiddle with the xrel and yrel till it looks right Yexo
16:29<JVassie>what about the other set of offsets?
16:29<JVassie><JVassie> 00 00 00 // x/y/z offset
16:29<JVassie><JVassie> 10 05 04 // x/y/z extent
16:29<JVassie><JVassie> \dx000042F
16:31<andythenorth>can't play a yacd game without new trucks
16:32<supermop_>why's that?
16:33<@Alberth>the old ones are worn out
16:33<andythenorth>they're all too big
16:33<andythenorth>I need 3t - 7t
16:33<Eddi|zuHause> <-- anyone interested? [there should be no functional change, if i made it correctly]
16:34<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: what does it do? :)
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>nothing, that's the point :p
16:35<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: how many warnings does it cause if you replace the "byte" with the appropiate enum?
16:35<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: 'doc' tends to include doxygen docs :p
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: hm, may be mislabelled then :p
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i see none
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: updated the diff with that change
16:39<@SmatZ>I always wonder if it's better to use TrackBits or TrackBitsByte
16:40<@SmatZ>probably TrackBits is better :)
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: i thought the byte stuff was only for map-array-like stuffing
16:41<@peter1138>it is, but if it turned out more efficient to use it everywhere, why not?
16:41<@peter1138>anyone done ViV yet?
16:42<JVassie>you there Yexo mate?
16:42<@Terkhen>what's ViV?
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>vehicles in vehicles ;)
16:42<@Terkhen>oh, ok :)
16:42<@peter1138>i was thinking of "PiP"
16:42<@peter1138>which is equally silly to remember
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>what's that?
16:42<@SmatZ>picture in picture
16:43<JVassie>vehicles in vehicles, like automobile carriers? or?
16:44<andythenorth>someone showed me some procedural minecraft stuff today
16:44<andythenorth>he's got some kind of console that means he can execute stuff defined in javascript routines
16:44<andythenorth>to build bricks and crap
16:45*andythenorth considers minecraft
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: trucks on ferries, trucks on wagons, containers on wagons, shunting...
16:45<JVassie>ah ok
16:45<JVassie>awesome :D
16:45<JVassie>shunting particularly
16:45<JVassie>the ability to break/join trains would be awesome
16:49<JVassie>Cannot read true colour PNG files..
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>yes, must convert it to an indexed one first
16:50<JVassie>do tell :p
16:50<JVassie>cant do it using MS paint i presume?
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>i doubt that
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>no idea. you need to be careful. you need a reduced original palette, without the "magic" colours (for palette animation), otherwise you get flashing pixels where they don't belong
16:52<JVassie>sounds painful
16:53*JVassie wonders how Yexo does it
16:53<@peter1138>most people start off with the correct palette and draw with that
16:53<@peter1138>i think
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that is the way better approach ;)
16:54<JVassie>the .png file worked originally
16:54<JVassie>i edited it in paint
16:54<JVassie>hit save
16:54<JVassie>and now it doesnt work :p
16:54<@peter1138>paint is... not the best tool
16:55<JVassie>your preferred choice?
16:55<ashledombos>Yexo: great, my new account works perfectly
16:55<ashledombos>i think i will stay with it
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>gimp can do properly (but needs a setting like "don't remove unused colours")
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>also people have said they use Paint.NET, but i don't know that one
16:57<JVassie>hmm ok
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17:02<andythenorth>could auto-replace / upgrade preserve the cargo-subtype?
17:02<andythenorth>it's sad that it doesn't
17:03<andythenorth>or is there no way to match subtypes between vehicles
17:03<andythenorth>I guess not :(
17:05<andythenorth>good night
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17:06<ashledombos>mm sure it can be hacked
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>he's of the impatient kind
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>autoreplace already does try to keep cargo subtype
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>(by comparing the name)
17:07<ashledombos>Eddi|zuHause: i did not read that in manual :)
17:07*ashledombos will have a look
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>might not be in 1.1
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>not sure
17:09<ashledombos>if it does, i will add this information in the wiki, if it doesn't already exist
17:09<@Terkhen>autoreplace with subtypes fails with HEQS trams IIRC
17:09<@Terkhen>it is quite annoying
17:10<@Terkhen>they are always replaced to the subtype with less cargo capacity
17:10<frosch123>the grf needs to use the same textids for the subtypes
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>yes, the names are not identical
17:10<@Terkhen>so it is a bug in HEQS?
17:10<frosch123>and i think that stuff is already 1.0
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>they are like "40t in 4 wagons" for one and "80t in 4 wagons" for the other
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>it would work if they were like "short" "medium" "long"
17:12<frosch123>well, then there is not even a proper answer to what version autoreplace should pick
17:13<frosch123>why should it replace a 40t thingie with a 80t thingie
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, maybe one needs to rethink the scheme
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>at that point, andythenorth usually request rv-wagons :p
17:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r22500 /trunk/src/ (fios.cpp fios.h fios_gui.cpp): -Doc: Fix and add fios doxygen documentation.
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17:33<Cyberdot>hi there
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17:34<Cyberdot>can someone tell me to how much real time corresponde a day in openttd at normal speed?
17:34<Cyberdot>it's exactly one second or so?
17:34<@Alberth>about 2.5 seconds iirc
17:34<Cyberdot>i see
17:36<Cyberdot>and for vehicles, there's any measure to see how far they go? i mean, does a vehicle travel, say, 2 tiles in 1 second at 50km/h?
17:37<Cyberdot>i'm not including deacceleration and other variables like that
17:37<Rubidium>see game mechanics on the wiki
17:37<Cyberdot>eheh, thx, forgot about that :P
17:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r22501 /trunk/src/ (fileio.cpp fios.cpp): -Codechange: Move FileExists to a better place.
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17:57<Cyberdot>"A tile is, for vehicle speed purposes 664.|216| km-ish". is |216| a modulus?
17:58<Cyberdot>i mean, why does 664 multiplies with 216?
17:58<Cyberdot>or that dot is not multiplication?
18:00<@Yexo>it's probably 664,216
18:00<@Yexo>not sure though
18:01<Cyberdot>that makes more sense now
18:01<Rubidium>the idea is that it's 664.21621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621...
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>very odd number ;)
18:02<Cyberdot>oh! i know that expression as 664,(216). at least that's how i learned in math
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>here they teach to overline it, but that's difficult with computers
18:02<@Yexo>overline indeed
18:03<@Yexo>but than again, even basic number formatting differs per region
18:03<Cyberdot>i thought it was a modulus xD and that was weird moduling a positive number
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think modulus means what you think it dus
18:04<@Terkhen>we used overline here too
18:04<@Terkhen>good night
18:05<Cyberdot>maybe i'm using the incorrect word. i mean the operator used in math to turn a negative number in a positive one
18:06<Cyberdot>absolute number!
18:06<Cyberdot>or something like that
18:06<Cyberdot>you see it in calculators as abs()
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's the one
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>modulus is something entirely different
18:07<Rubidium>so if 664.(216) is a more common notation, please change it to that as I assume you can't easily overline it in wiki
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say "664.216 (period 216)"
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18:07<Eddi|zuHause>makes it more explicit what is meant
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>any notation can be misinterpreted
18:08<Rubidium>not recurring 216?
18:10<Cyberdot>you could do it as 216216216...
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18:10<Cyberdot>i think other ppl would understand what that means
18:11<Cyberdot>i changed it to my notation, thought
18:14<Cyberdot> here they show the most common notations
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18:30<Cyberdot>why does subspeed have 256 different values?
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18:31<@Yexo>because it is byte-sized
18:32<Cyberdot>i understood that part, but shouldn't subspeed be a single value composed by the calculations done during the vehicle travel?
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>subspeed is like the fractional position between grid positions
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>it gets added until it overflows
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>and then the vehicle advances
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>(or i may be completely wrong)
18:35<@Yexo>you're describing "progress", not "subspeed"
18:35<@Yexo>subspeed is the fractional part of the speed
18:37<Cyberdot>oh! i understood now. it's limited to a byte for those numbers who have infinite decimal digits
18:37<Cyberdot>i think
18:38<@Yexo>hmm, sorry eddi, you might be right
18:38<@Yexo>the wiki and the doxygen documentation are not in sync
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18:41<@Yexo>looks like the wiki (and so also eddi) is wrong, what is called "subspeed" at the wiki is actually stored in the variable "progress"
18:41<@Yexo>the "subspeed" variable really is the fractional part of the speed
18:41<@Yexo>although I'm not sure if that also holds for aircraft
18:46<Cyberdot>so the formula is not with subspeed but with progress?
18:46<@Yexo>I think so
18:46<@Yexo>but it's getting late
18:46<@Yexo>check the code if you want to be sure
18:46<Cyberdot>where is the code stored in ubuntu systems?
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: ah, that might explain why the code never made any sense to me :p
18:47<@Yexo>Cyberdot: if you install openttd via the package manager you probably don't have the source code yet
18:47<Cyberdot>ok, thx
18:48<@Yexo>see for ways to obtain it
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18:54<Cyberdot>gah! can't find the header who specifies the speed
18:55<@Yexo>grep subspeed src/*.h
18:55<Cyberdot>kk, thx
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18:56<Eddi|zuHause>this drawing code is weird...
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>it seems totally over-elaborate
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>and is full of magic numbers
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18:59<@Yexo>good night
18:59<Eddi|zuHause> <-- if anyone can shed some light on this, please tell me
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19:00<Cyberdot>as Yexo said, wiki describes progress where subspeed is mentioned
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19:34<JVassie>hi Yexo
19:34<JVassie>getting an error with my additional graphics
19:35<JVassie>that it doesnt support true colour pngs
19:35<JVassie>how do you get around it?
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>i thought we already established "don't edit your sprites with paint" as the proper solution?
19:36<JVassie>well yes
19:36<JVassie>but apparently Yexo drew the exisitng sprites in paint
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19:36<JVassie>so somehow he got around the issue :)
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>well, you must somehow convince it to not forget the palette
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22:25<HackaLittleBit>compile problem with fileio.cpp on win box
22:25<HackaLittleBit>add please following line
22:25<HackaLittleBit># define access _taccess
22:25<HackaLittleBit>after line 19 #include <windows.h>
22:25<HackaLittleBit>will fix it :)
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22:27<HackaLittleBit>bug was introduced in r22501
22:29<HackaLittleBit>maybe line 23 in fios.cpp needs some cleaning.
22:30<HackaLittleBit>bye bye
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23:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r22502 /trunk/src/ (fileio.cpp fios.cpp): -Fix (r22501): WIN32 compilation
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---Logclosed Sat May 28 00:00:13 2011