| --- | Log | opened Sat May 28 00:00:13 2011 |
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| 03:04 | <@planetmaker> | Eddi|zuHause: if it still matters: http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/BaseCosts <-- and the parameters are all named ;-) And there's a separate 'build canal' base cost |
| 03:04 | <@planetmaker> | moin |
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| 03:12 | <andythenorth> | morning |
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| 03:58 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ |
| 04:03 | <@Terkhen> | good morning |
| 04:03 | <andythenorth> | hi Terkhen |
| 04:04 | <TWerkhoven> | mornin |
| 04:06 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: to answer your question from yesterday, both autorenew and autoreplace try to preserve the subcargo. but the grfs needs to use the same textid for them |
| 04:06 | <frosch123> | so it wont work if one vehicle says "40t in 4 wagons" and the other says "80t in 4 sagons" |
| 04:07 | <andythenorth> | ok |
| 04:07 | <frosch123> | it would work if they used the same texts, like "short" or "long" (suggested names by eddi) |
| 04:07 | <andythenorth> | I don't think it's working for auto-replace |
| 04:07 | <andythenorth> | although I'd have to test to prove that |
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| 04:50 | <Wolf01> | hello |
| 04:55 | <@Alberth> | moin |
| 05:05 | <ChoHag> | Conditional orders are seriously confusing yacd routes. |
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| 05:27 | <@peter1138> | openttdcoop yacd game is pretty ruined |
| 05:34 | <andythenorth> | which server is it on? |
| 05:35 | <@planetmaker> | dev.openttdcoop.org |
| 05:36 | <@planetmaker> | peter1138: you want a new one? |
| 05:37 | <@Terkhen> | heh, someone had fun blowing everything up |
| 05:38 | <andythenorth> | since when could I paste into a text box in openttd? |
| 05:38 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth: for long ;-) |
| 05:39 | <andythenorth> | but not copy? |
| 05:40 | <@planetmaker> | !rcon restart was my friend on the yacd server ;-) |
| 05:40 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth: not copy |
| 05:40 | <@peter1138> | paste has been there aeons... on windows |
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| 05:41 | <@peter1138> | planetmaker, btw, it says "house rules at www.openttdcoop.org" |
| 05:42 | <@peter1138> | but there are no rules on that page, nor a link to any |
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| 05:42 | <@planetmaker> | yeI suppose you have a point there |
| 05:43 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: frosch * r22503 /trunk/src/ (effectvehicle.cpp effectvehicle_func.h): -Doc: EffectVehicleType. |
| 05:43 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: frosch * r22504 /trunk/src/ (effectvehicle.cpp effectvehicle_func.h): -Codechange: Add EV_END and use it to check the lengths of _effect_init_procs and _effect_tick_procs. |
| 05:45 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: frosch * r22505 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Add: Separate EffectVehicleTypes for broken aircraft and smoke at copper ore mine, to make them distinguishable from each other and from smoke due to disasters. (only affects newly spawned effects) |
| 05:46 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: frosch * r22506 /trunk/src/ (4 files): -Feature [FS#4625]: Make the transparency options for industries also affect the effect vehicles created by industries. |
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| 05:56 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: alberth * r22507 /trunk/src/openttd.h: -Doc: Document SwitchMode. |
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| 06:10 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth_: out of interest: did you loose connection to the server or did you quit? |
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| 06:16 | <andythenorth_> | seems my ISP lost dns, so I switched connection |
| 06:31 | <Ammler> | there is a irc channel for the server: #openttdcoop.dev , then you can follow also if not connected, recommend if connection is bad :-) |
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| 06:32 | <Ammler> | andythenorth_: ^ |
| 06:39 | <ChoHag> | I wouldn't have thought openttdcoop worked well with yacd. |
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| 06:40 | <ChoHag> | The coop MO seems to be all about linking to central points. |
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| 06:41 | <Ammler> | there are different types, openttdcoop is just a group building together, how is not defined |
| 06:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | why should it not work, as long as they connect all industries? |
| 06:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | things like "autobalancing S-Bahn" won't work, though ;) |
| 06:43 | <ChoHag> | Well I only looked into it a couple of times. Never really like it. |
| 06:43 | <Ammler> | but indeed, yacdist might be more useable |
| 06:46 | <Ammler> | also #openttdcoop.dev isn't for #openttdcoop, it is from #openttdcoop ;-) |
| 06:46 | <Ammler> | like .stable |
| 06:46 | <Ammler> | so you might also join and play you invidiual game there |
| 06:47 | <Ammler> | [11:41] <peter1138> planetmaker, btw, it says "house rules at www.openttdcoop.org" <-- that is template url, there aren't any rules for it afaik |
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| 06:49 | <ChoHag> | I'd rather fix the three (and a half) glaring bugs I've found in YACD. |
| 06:49 | <ChoHag> | But I don't know where to begin. |
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| 06:51 | <ChoHag> | Doesn't help that SVN and git don't always get along very well. |
| 06:51 | <Ammler> | you don't need svn anymore |
| 06:51 | <ChoHag> | The git interfaces to svn are not great. |
| 06:52 | <Ammler> | michi_cc: provides git mirror of the svn repo |
| 06:52 | <ChoHag> | I noticed this a while ago at work on a project which used svn on the back-end. The conversion locally from svn to git doesn't deal with branches properly. |
| 06:52 | <ChoHag> | Because SVN sucks at branches. |
| 06:53 | <ChoHag> | Yes. I have that. It's a lot cleaner than the mess I had to work with before. |
| 06:53 | <ChoHag> | So I can get there. It just takes a while longer than if it was gits all the way down. |
| 06:53 | <Ammler> | then rahter your svn repo made branches wrong |
| 06:54 | <Ammler> | svn doesn't have "real" support for branches or tags, you need to "simulate" it :-) |
| 06:54 | <ChoHag> | Indeed. |
| 06:55 | <Ammler> | so if your svn repo doesn't let you make a nice convert to git or hg, blame the repo maintainer |
| 06:55 | <ChoHag> | Oh I did. |
| 06:55 | <ChoHag> | Daily. |
| 06:56 | <Ammler> | e.g. svn.openttd.org is convertable without big issues |
| 06:59 | <@Alberth> | do you know there is a Git mirror? http://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_development#How_can_I_obtain_the_source_code.3F (I just added the Git link) |
| 07:00 | <Ammler> | Alberth: it's not openttd.org which bothered him |
| 07:00 | <ChoHag> | It's not any particular archive which bothers me. |
| 07:00 | <@Alberth> | Git: http://git.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.git/ <-- ? |
| 07:00 | <ChoHag> | svn -> git is just never completely clean, afaict. |
| 07:01 | <ChoHag> | Makes going through the history a tad more difficult is all. |
| 07:01 | <@Alberth> | yeah, git is broken imho |
| 07:01 | <Ammler> | Alberth: try the git mirror from michi_cc |
| 07:01 | <@Alberth> | Ammler: it is not the repo, it is the program that is broken :) |
| 07:02 | <ChoHag> | Of course it's broken. It's software. |
| 07:02 | <Ammler> | ah, true that is :-) |
| 07:02 | <@Alberth> | I play the yacd patch by mirroring trunk at the right revision, then apply the .patch file |
| 07:03 | <@Alberth> | s/play/played/ |
| 07:03 | <Ammler> | I setup yacd on .dev with git |
| 07:03 | <Ammler> | without any git knowledge :-P |
| 07:05 | <Ammler> | does git also have a kind of patch queue manager or how is that done there? |
| 07:05 | <ChoHag> | I love the way CPP puts code in header files. In much the same way that I love sliding forks into my eyes. |
| 07:05 | <ChoHag> | s/CPP/C++/ |
| 07:06 | <@Alberth> | Ammler: it does, I don't know how though, hg works good enough for me :) |
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| 07:07 | <@Alberth> | ChoHag: oh, you are going to enjoy the OpenTTD source code then, filled with old C code and global variables :D |
| 07:08 | <frosch123> | it's not thaat bad anymore, is it? |
| 07:08 | <@Alberth> | looked at fios files lately? :p |
| 07:08 | <frosch123> | hmm, though true, we can only load one game at a time |
| 07:09 | <frosch123> | we should be able to load multiple games and newgrf configs independently :) |
| 07:12 | <@Alberth> | good for playing what-if games :) |
| 07:13 | <@peter1138> | i had a pa... |
| 07:15 | <@Alberth> | :D |
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| 07:24 | <@peter1138> | # only ginger can call another ginger ginger |
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| 09:53 | <Rubidium> | frosch123: I agree, running multiple OpenTTD games within a single OpenTTD binary seems to be *the* perfect way to make OpenTTD make use of the other cores as well |
| 09:53 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: alberth * r22508 /trunk/src/screenshot.cpp: -Codechange: Lift default screenshot filename out of MakeScreenshotName. |
| 09:54 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: alberth * r22509 /trunk/src/ (screenshot.cpp screenshot.h): -Add: Save heightmap. |
| 09:54 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: alberth * r22510 /trunk/src/fios.cpp: -Codechange: Extract filepath creation to its own function. |
| 09:55 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: alberth * r22511 /trunk/src/ (fios.cpp fios.h screenshot.cpp screenshot.h): -Add: Function to make heightmap file paths. |
| 09:55 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: alberth * r22512 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Add: Save heightmap. |
| 09:55 | <frosch123> | not quite what i had in mind :) |
| 09:56 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: alberth * r22513 /trunk/src/ (fios.h fios_gui.cpp lang/english.txt): -Add: Allow for saving a heightmap from the file dialogue window. |
| 09:56 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: alberth * r22514 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt toolbar_gui.cpp): -Feature: Save heightmap in scenario editor. |
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| 09:57 | <frosch123> | usually people want to run ottd on a cluster :p |
| 09:58 | <Rubidium> | frosch123: yeah, and then they modify OpenTTD so the clients can run AIs and the server always runs in fast forward. After that, they complain to me that the AIs are kicked from the server so extraordinarily often |
| 10:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | did that really happen? |
| 10:02 | <Rubidium> | yes |
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| 10:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | clearly the only thing this needs is a feedback mechanism to stop the server if the client is slow :p |
| 10:05 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's not the worst idea to give each AI its own core |
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| 10:08 | <Rubidium> | true, but it's somewhat tricky w.r.t. command execution |
| 10:10 | <Rubidium> | and possibly other things like runtime-ish inclusion of other files (seem to remember there's a statement that allows you to include something mid-execution) |
| 10:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | hence the workaround to give each ai a full client? |
| 10:11 | <Ammler> | you don't need ais on a server, doesn't make sense anyway |
| 10:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Ammler: i'm fairly sure that wasn't the point anyway ;) |
| 10:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Ammler: someone who hacks the game to always run FF doesn't want to play himself |
| 10:14 | <Ammler> | well, it would make sense, if they could overtake abandoned companies |
| 10:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but rather watch some kind of AI battle |
| 10:15 | <Rubidium> | more "wants to see how the amount of network traffic scales when the amount of active players increases" |
| 10:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that vaguely falls into that category ;) |
| 10:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "#define MAKELINE(a, b, c) { a, b, c }," <-- what sense has this? it's not like {} is several magnitudes more difficult to type than ()? |
| 10:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (that's in src/table/road_land.h) |
| 10:21 | <Ammler> | couldn't the code be changed so drivers and passengers don't die on accidents, just injured? |
| 10:22 | <Rubidium> | it makes it easier to add fields to the structs |
| 10:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Ammler: there's a patch for that |
| 10:22 | <Ammler> | seriously? :-) |
| 10:22 | <Rubidium> | Ammler: s/code/translation/, then yes! |
| 10:23 | <Ammler> | Rubidium: I thought, english.txt is code, not translation |
| 10:23 | <Rubidium> | but really, why make that bit more complex? |
| 10:24 | <Ammler> | how is that more complex? |
| 10:24 | <Ammler> | that is just another word |
| 10:24 | <Rubidium> | as it is definitely wrong to make it injured |
| 10:24 | <Ammler> | oh, you mean unrealistic? |
| 10:24 | <Rubidium> | as a plane crashing mid-air and tumbling burning into the ocean doesn't injure people, it pretty much roasts and kills them |
| 10:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | this file is full of magic hex numbers :( |
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| 10:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | @base 10 16 1313 |
| 10:27 | <@DorpsGek> | Eddi|zuHause: 521 |
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| 10:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | @base 16 10 1212 |
| 10:28 | <@DorpsGek> | Eddi|zuHause: 4626 |
| 10:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | @base 10 16 1332 |
| 10:29 | <@DorpsGek> | Eddi|zuHause: 534 |
| 10:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | @base 10 16 1352 |
| 10:29 | <@DorpsGek> | Eddi|zuHause: 548 |
| 10:29 | <Rubidium> | sprite numbers? |
| 10:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | looks like it |
| 10:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | drawing is difficult, and from the looks, the old patch does it The Wrong Way (tm) |
| 10:36 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so i'm currently trying to rewrite it, instead of update it |
| 10:41 | <@Terkhen> | andythenorth_: can you set % of cities to zero? they grow fast enough already :P |
| 10:43 | <@planetmaker> | hm, nice, Alberth :-) |
| 10:43 | <@planetmaker> | Terkhen: what % of cities? |
| 10:44 | <@Terkhen> | planetmaker: "Proportion of towns that will become cities:" |
| 10:45 | <@planetmaker> | ah |
| 10:45 | <@planetmaker> | yes |
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| 10:53 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 10:53 | <andythenorth> | leaving an MP game blitzed my web connection |
| 10:53 | <supermop> | hi andy |
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| 10:53 | <andythenorth> | or it was a coincidence |
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| 12:00 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "DNF to be released 10th june" |
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| 12:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that's probably as close to "end of the world" as you can get :p |
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| 12:09 | <ChoHag> | Is math.h included already by some header in openttd? |
| 12:09 | <__ln__> | I hope not. |
| 12:09 | <@peter1138> | we don't use any math.h function, iirc |
| 12:09 | <ChoHag> | Or some alternative. |
| 12:09 | <ChoHag> | Something which can do square roots. |
| 12:11 | <@peter1138> | what for? |
| 12:11 | <ChoHag> | To calculate a curve. |
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| 12:14 | <@Alberth> | there is no floating point math in openttd |
| 12:14 | <ChoHag> | Boring. |
| 12:14 | <@Alberth> | no, it is compatible with many processors |
| 12:16 | <ChoHag> | Meh. |
| 12:17 | <@Terkhen> | what are you trying to calculate? |
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| 12:18 | <ChoHag> | sqrt(1-x^2) |
| 12:19 | <ChoHag> | A non-linear function to multiply apparent speed. |
| 12:20 | <ChoHag> | For now, sqrt will do. If I like the result I'll probably put in pre-calculated values. |
| 12:20 | <ChoHag> | It only needs 255. |
| 12:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | use an approximation that works with integers |
| 12:20 | <ChoHag> | 256. |
| 12:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and sqrt(1-x^2) sounds awfully relativistic... |
| 12:21 | <ChoHag> | It's a circle. |
| 12:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i know |
| 12:21 | <ChoHag> | Well, from 0 to 1 it's ¼ of a circle. |
| 12:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but that term appears in pretty much any formula for special relativity theory |
| 12:22 | <ChoHag> | I want to plug it in and see if it stops the effect of having ships accelerate amusingly fast. |
| 12:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | make ships use the realistic acceleration code and set max_te really low? |
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| 12:42 | <@peter1138> | they'll still stop instantly |
| 12:42 | <ChoHag> | Yes I've noticed that. |
| 12:43 | <ChoHag> | I need to pick my battles though. |
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| 13:02 | <@peter1138> | solving instant stopping is a harder problem |
| 13:02 | <@peter1138> | as you'd need to determine where to start stopping well in advance |
| 13:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | while you're at it, solve it for trains as well :p |
| 13:09 | <@peter1138> | quite so |
| 13:09 | <@peter1138> | and rvs :D |
| 13:09 | <@peter1138> | and without causing performance issues... |
| 13:11 | <ChoHag> | Trains is easy. Start stopping at the previous signal if the next one is red. |
| 13:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, please :p |
| 13:12 | <@peter1138> | uh |
| 13:12 | <@peter1138> | no |
| 13:13 | <@peter1138> | you forget that there are people who place signals every other tile, and such monstrosities |
| 13:13 | <ChoHag> | They should be shot. |
| 13:13 | <@Alberth> | trains should slow down such that they can stop :) |
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| 13:14 | <@Alberth> | ie with 1 tile blocks, they never reach top speed |
| 13:14 | <@peter1138> | good idea :D |
| 13:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | ChoHag: then update http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/advance_signals_v2.patch and improve http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/advance_slowdown_hack.diff and then pick up the open issues, like train priorities and stuff ;) |
| 13:16 | <@Terkhen> | what's the problem with placing signals every two tiles? |
| 13:16 | <ChoHag> | Well it's ugly for one. |
| 13:16 | <Ammler> | and for two? |
| 13:16 | <@Terkhen> | and? :P |
| 13:17 | <ChoHag> | Need there be another? |
| 13:17 | <Ammler> | ChoHag: the question is rather, why is that a issue for your patch |
| 13:17 | <ChoHag> | Wait, what? |
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| 13:18 | <@Terkhen> | so... since it is ugly you don't feel that it should be supported? |
| 13:18 | <ChoHag> | Yes. |
| 13:18 | <ChoHag> | OpenTTD should be a pretty game. |
| 13:19 | <Ammler> | openttd should be a game for every taste |
| 13:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Terkhen: doesn't mean there can't be a setting, though |
| 13:19 | <ChoHag> | Ugliness is a lack of taste. |
| 13:19 | <Ammler> | it is ugly just for you |
| 13:20 | <@Terkhen> | I don't mind the signals, also I prefer usefulness over eyecandy... there are a lot of ways to play the game ;) |
| 13:20 | <Ammler> | IMO, it is uglier to have 10 lines parallel just to have less signals |
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| 13:20 | <ChoHag> | There were 8 lines going past the back of my old house. |
| 13:21 | <Ammler> | hmm, maybe you confuse it with realistic |
| 13:21 | <ChoHag> | You mean trains *don't* instantly turn 45 degrees at a time? |
| 13:21 | <Ammler> | that is often (mis)used in openttd |
| 13:22 | <Ammler> | or abused |
| 13:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | ChoHag: by all means, introduce 15° curves :p |
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| 13:24 | <ChoHag> | Only if you introduce two parallel lines per tile. |
| 13:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, but how to convert savegames with only one line? |
| 13:25 | <ChoHag> | They wouldn't need any converting. |
| 13:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well, the map array is a tad too small for offsetting one line to the middle, right or left, and additional combinations |
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| 13:33 | <@Alberth> | ChoHag: simple, just build diagonal tracks only |
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| 13:45 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: translators * r22515 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files): |
| 13:45 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: |
| 13:45 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: catalan - 2 changes by arnau |
| 13:45 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by jpx_ |
| 13:45 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 9 changes by kristoffer_hh |
| 13:45 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf |
| 13:45 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: slovenian - 1 changes by ntadej |
| 13:45 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Alberth: lack of diagonal stations and bridges :p |
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| 13:48 | <@Alberth> | with stations you want more room around your train so it can be (un)loaded from both sides, and you only need bridges to cross other diagonal tracks :p |
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| 14:26 | <fjb> | With diagonal tracks there are two parallel lines only on every second tile. |
| 14:33 | <Wolf01> | I'll be happy with just diagonal tracks going uphill, so you can climb all the sides of an octagon shaped hill |
| 14:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i'd not say "happy" but that would be nice as well |
| 14:36 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "traffic objects" with a state machine defining possible movement paths would be nice for that |
| 14:37 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (the lock is an example of such an object) |
| 14:43 | * | Alberth ponders 15 degrees corners with such a state machine |
| 14:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the interesting part about this is that you can span multiple tile, so smooth road curves etc. become possible |
| 14:44 | <@Alberth> | yeah :D |
| 14:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | or tram embedded in the middle of a 4 lane road |
| 14:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (2 tiles wide) |
| 14:45 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it'd be like SC4 puzzle pieces |
| 14:46 | <@Alberth> | we'll get a RCT interface :) |
| 14:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i thought about a station-like layout picker would suffice :p |
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| 14:51 | <@Alberth> | http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=119031 <-- example in this pcx file :) |
| 14:53 | * | Alberth wanders into the new intro gui thread, and wonders about its state. |
| 14:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | nah, that's a silly thing... |
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| 14:55 | <supermop> | i hated laying track that way |
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| 15:05 | <@Alberth> | in RCT1 it made sense to me |
| 15:05 | <ChoHag> | RCT/Locomotion's method of laying track would be excellent, _iff_ used to supplement ttd's old fashioned method. |
| 15:05 | <ChoHag> | ie. for building more interesting bridges etc. |
| 15:06 | <@planetmaker> | man, yacd and FIRS makes for really tedious "connect all industries which accept XXX or your ratings will be below anything" |
| 15:07 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: FIRS needs rebalancing for yacd ;) |
| 15:07 | <ChoHag> | andythenorth: And some yacd bugs need fixing. |
| 15:07 | <andythenorth> | but also the rating algorithm really does suck |
| 15:07 | <ChoHag> | Station ratings? |
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| 15:08 | <ChoHag> | Indeed. |
| 15:09 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: there are too many lime kilns in that game by far |
| 15:09 | <andythenorth> | but adjusting probabilities is nearly-pointless |
| 15:09 | <Zuu> | Hmm, hoping that updating lenny => squeeze would magically fix all problems does not seem to be happen. Instead I get various interesting new problems. :-) |
| 15:09 | <ChoHag> | How much of en effect does distance have on yacd destination industries? |
| 15:10 | <Zuu> | Quite a bit I think |
| 15:11 | <Zuu> | It uses different distance categories. |
| 15:11 | <Zuu> | So X % of the destinations has to come from destinations nearby, Y % from mid-distance and Z % from far destinations. |
| 15:15 | <fjb> | Quite realistic. Don't buy everything in Japan or your production will be doomed when the next earthquake happens. |
| 15:16 | <andythenorth> | same could be said for california :P |
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| 15:19 | <fjb> | Nuclear power plants on tectonically unstable ground, quite true... |
| 15:19 | <fjb> | Buy everything in China. :) |
| 15:20 | <@Alberth> | fyi, the non-nuclear infra structure is wiped out too |
| 15:20 | <ChoHag> | The anti-nuclear attention paid to Japan is disgusting. |
| 15:20 | <@Alberth> | except we don't hear about it |
| 15:20 | <ChoHag> | Thousands have died and their property ruined. |
| 15:21 | <ChoHag> | The nuclear power plants did really bloody well considering they were hit with much more than they were designed to withstand. |
| 15:21 | <ChoHag> | Not even half a dozen people have died at the plant, and none from any radiological exposure. |
| 15:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | <planetmaker> man, yacd and FIRS makes for really tedious "connect all industries which accept XXX or your ratings will be below anything" <-- imho yacd rating should only be counted for actually connected destinations |
| 15:22 | <fjb> | I can't really say they did well. Many nuclear power plants are still shut down. And energy is needed to rebuild everything. |
| 15:23 | <@Alberth> | fjb "..they were hit with much more than they were designed to withstand" <-- so yeah, they should have been engineered to withstand a bigger splash of water |
| 15:23 | <ChoHag> | The plant a few miles down the road shut down without issue. |
| 15:24 | <@Alberth> | not sure how useful a power plant would be there, given that everything has been flattened, ie no infra structure to plug into, or perhaps transport the electricity |
| 15:25 | <fjb> | There will always be an even bigger earthquake than expected. And the power plants at Fukushima got unstable from the earthquake. The following tsunami did not help, but did not cause the catastroph eiter. |
| 15:25 | <ChoHag> | There was no nuclear catastrophe. |
| 15:25 | <@Alberth> | oh it did, it knocked out the cooling system |
| 15:26 | <ChoHag> | It certainly didn't do well, but it was hardly catastrophic. |
| 15:26 | <fjb> | Drawing new power lines is not that hard, but a lot of the nuclear power plants are still shut down and can not be replaced in a few weeks. |
| 15:26 | <@Alberth> | ChoHag: well, there was, nuclear water running into the ocean is not supposed to happen :) |
| 15:26 | <ChoHag> | Yeah but that's certainly not catastrophic. |
| 15:27 | <fjb> | ChoHag: The containments of at least tree reactors are broken. That is hardly noncatastrophic. |
| 15:27 | <andythenorth> | there are possibly more people killed by crossing collisions with US coal trains per year than have died from nuclear energy |
| 15:27 | <andythenorth> | maybe |
| 15:28 | <@Alberth> | definitely |
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| 15:28 | <@Alberth> | death rate by nuclear problems is almost 0 |
| 15:29 | <ChoHag> | Even chernobyl is nearly death-free. |
| 15:29 | <@Alberth> | except they didn't know that back then :) |
| 15:29 | <ChoHag> | And what deaths there were were caused by Russian ineptitude. |
| 15:30 | <fjb> | People are killed in the accident. Make it more secure next time. The accident will go into the next book about history, if it was big enough. But a nuclear catastrophe causes deaths over a long time after the accident. |
| 15:30 | <ChoHag> | No it doesn't. |
| 15:30 | <ChoHag> | No, sorry, that's not true. |
| 15:31 | <ChoHag> | A nuclear catastrophe could cause long-term deaths, so it's a good thing there wasn't a catastrophe. |
| 15:31 | <fjb> | Death from radiation is very true. |
| 15:31 | <ChoHag> | Yes, but hasn't happened after any nuclear power accidents. |
| 15:31 | <Eddi|zuHause> | in what world? |
| 15:32 | <ChoHag> | Chernobyl had almost no radiological deaths, Three-mile-island had none and Fukushima had ... none. |
| 15:32 | <fjb> | ChoHag: Tell that the people who worked at Tshernobyl and who cleaned up after the power plant blew up. |
| 15:32 | <andythenorth> | I thought this was a balanced article on it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12785274 |
| 15:32 | <ChoHag> | fjb: Hence 'almost'. |
| 15:33 | <ChoHag> | And those were because the Russians sent people in without protection and without accepting international aid. |
| 15:33 | <fjb> | Some some thousand are almost none? |
| 15:33 | <ChoHag> | Some few dozen. |
| 15:33 | <andythenorth> | arguing relative deaths is probably dumb - but coal-powered energy generation causes many many more deaths and long term health problems |
| 15:34 | <ChoHag> | Quite. |
| 15:34 | <ChoHag> | Coal is awful. |
| 15:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i'm sorry, this discussion is of the kind "there is no scientific link betewen X and Y" |
| 15:34 | <fjb> | Don't count only the people who died at the day of the accident. Radiation kills slowly. |
| 15:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there is no point discussing this |
| 15:34 | <andythenorth> | the article I linked has the actual figures attributed to chernobyl |
| 15:34 | <ChoHag> | The slower radiation acts, the less it kills. |
| 15:34 | <ChoHag> | By definition, the longer the half-life, the less dangerous it is. |
| 15:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's like trying to talk to someone who doesn't believe dinosaurs existed |
| 15:35 | <@Terkhen> | <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> man, yacd and FIRS makes for really tedious "connect all industries which accept XXX or your ratings will be below anything" <-- imho yacd rating should only be counted for actually connected destinations <--- I agree with that |
| 15:35 | <andythenorth> | long term deaths from chernobyl-contaminated-milk are counted at 15 currently |
| 15:35 | <fjb> | No question, coal power plants are not healthy either. But that doesn't make nuclear power any better. |
| 15:36 | <ChoHag> | fjb: Apart from the complete lack of emissions, of course. |
| 15:36 | <fjb> | ChoHag: Go to africa to the uran mines. |
| 15:36 | <Eddi|zuHause> | nuclear power stations don't have "no emissions" either |
| 15:36 | <ChoHag> | And the vastly (and I mean _vastly_[*]) reduced fuel requirements. |
| 15:37 | <ChoHag> | [*] This is why TTD doesn't have uranium transport - there wouldn't be enough of a demand to be profitable. |
| 15:37 | <fjb> | And far to few "fuel" to power all planed nuclear power plants. And not to talk about the nuclear waste. |
| 15:38 | <ChoHag> | Hah! There's enough fuel under my garden to power the UK for decades. |
| 15:38 | * | fjb doesn't want to live where ChoHag lives. |
| 15:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | for nuclear power emissions you need to count the emissions for the construction, the emissions for the transport (including protesters individual movement and police issued), and the emissions for storing the (only 1% spent) fuel |
| 15:38 | <ChoHag> | You only need to store it because people are too stupid to just burn it again. |
| 15:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | nuclear power stations are _extremely_ inefficient at using the fuel |
| 15:39 | <ChoHag> | Our decendents will be laughing at us for burying such a useful source of energy, much the same way we laugh at mediaeval doctors. |
| 15:39 | <ChoHag> | Eddi|zuHause: Yeah, because we get so much out of so little that there's just no point. |
| 15:39 | <ChoHag> | :) |
| 15:40 | <fjb> | Almost nothing was buried yet. And what did has to taken back. |
| 15:40 | <fjb> | And nuclear power is unbelievable expensive. |
| 15:41 | <ChoHag> | Nuclear power has huge capital costs and very low and, importantly, very stable, ongoing costs. |
| 15:42 | <fjb> | Only if you don't count the transportation of the fuel and the disposal of the waste. |
| 15:43 | <ChoHag> | Meh. You're boring now. |
| 15:43 | <ChoHag> | Come up with real arguments. |
| 15:44 | <Chris_Booth> | is you smell a real arugment? :P |
| 15:44 | <ChoHag> | No, but it was at least vaguely interesting. |
| 15:44 | <ChoHag> | Didn't think it would last. It never does. |
| 15:44 | <fjb> | I invite you over here, about 30 km away is a failed disposal zone, and 50 km away is the second. |
| 15:45 | * | Zuu has managed to get X to start, only that the keyboard is not working :-) |
| 15:45 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Zuu: there's an option in xorg.conf to skip autodetecting the keyboard |
| 15:45 | <fjb> | Zuu: Who need a keyboard any way? |
| 15:45 | * | Alberth does |
| 15:45 | <ChoHag> | People still have X problems? |
| 15:45 | <Zuu> | fjb: to type my password to login :-) |
| 15:45 | <ChoHag> | Will the open sores crowd never get their act together? |
| 15:46 | <ChoHag> | I thought this was the year of the Linux Desktop. |
| 15:46 | <ChoHag> | Just like last year. |
| 15:46 | <fjb> | Zuu: keycard :) |
| 15:46 | <@Alberth> | ChoHag: just like windows has no drivers problems any more :) |
| 15:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | ChoHag: linux will gain some market share once microsoft decides it actually wants to hunt down unlicensed copies :p |
| 15:47 | * | fjb has no problem with his open source environment, only the proprietary suck. |
| 15:47 | <ChoHag> | 5 years ago installing linux was simple and Windows was disparaged for being such a PITA to install (not that anyone ever actually needed to). |
| 15:47 | <ChoHag> | Now Windows is a doddle and Linux gets bitchy. |
| 15:48 | <fjb> | Linux has a big marked share. There will soon be more Android devices than Windows desktops. |
| 15:48 | <fjb> | Ore did that already happen? |
| 15:48 | <Rubidium> | Eddi|zuHause: luckily other industries are allowed to vent their "nuclear" waste into the atmosphere |
| 15:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | fjb: funnily, microsoft earns more through android phones than windows phones :p |
| 15:48 | <ChoHag> | fjb: Yeah, which Google did by stripping away all the hippy freetard bullshit. |
| 15:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | http://www.asymco.com/2011/05/27/microsoft-has-received-five-times-more-income-from-android-than-from-windows-phone/ |
| 15:49 | <fjb> | Eddi|zuHause: I know, protection money. |
| 15:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well, just another case of "the microsoft tax" |
| 15:51 | <ChoHag> | Windows 7 is OK. |
| 15:51 | <ChoHag> | Security is still useless. It always will be. |
| 15:51 | <Zuu> | Well, I probably took a shortcut to comment out the wacom-lines of my xorg.conf it seems. Instead I should probably dig up the device and attach it to the computer and it will be happy :-) |
| 15:51 | <ChoHag> | The UI is good though once you return to the old-fashioned theme. |
| 15:52 | <fjb> | The Windows UI is so limited. |
| 15:52 | <ChoHag> | And, as I have discovered since I revently installed windows again for the first time in nearly 10 years, has actual games. |
| 15:52 | <@Alberth> | I doubt that, I never get along very well with pure-graphical interfaces |
| 15:52 | <ChoHag> | recently |
| 15:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Zuu: unless you have proprietary drivers, you should get away with just removing xorg.conf |
| 15:53 | <ChoHag> | Alberth: Oh don't get me wrong - the first thing I installed was cygwin. |
| 15:53 | <ChoHag> | The second was vmware to get Linux on the second monitor. |
| 15:53 | <ChoHag> | It still falls down in many ways, but much of what the Linux crowd used to point and laugh in the last 10 years has been fixed. |
| 15:53 | <@Alberth> | I just install Linux natively :) |
| 15:54 | * | fjb has Windows on his mobile phone. :( |
| 15:54 | <Rubidium> | "[Patch] Speed up ships the same way planes are slowed" <- what's the point? Why make ships even slower? |
| 15:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | windows host and linux virtual sounds awfully backwards... |
| 15:54 | <ChoHag> | On the other hand, what the Windows crowd pointed to and laughed at in Linux et al has been studiously denied an ignored. |
| 15:54 | <ChoHag> | Rubidium: I believe you misunderstand the phrase 'speed up'. :P |
| 15:55 | <ChoHag> | Eddi|zuHause: I thought so too, until I realised that I had a really good graphics card and wasn't taking advantage of it. |
| 15:55 | <ChoHag> | Now Windows has access to the hardware and I can actually play things which require 3D acceleration again. |
| 15:55 | <Rubidium> | no, speeding up = !slowing down. He wants to make it the same way as the planes were slowed down. As the planes were sped up, he means that the ships are slowed down. |
| 15:56 | <ChoHag> | Of course nethack and openttd don't need that... |
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| 15:56 | <@Terkhen> | virtualized linux works quite fine on windows, although I never tried to do anything really crazy with it |
| 15:56 | <ChoHag> | Rubidium: He == Me, and the patch multiplies the ship speed where plane speed is divided. |
| 15:57 | <ChoHag> | 'The same way' means that the reported ship speed doesn't change (ie. it still says 17mph, 25mph, whatever) but the rate of movement accross the map does. |
| 15:58 | <Rubidium> | originally aircraft went moved 1/4th the distance a train or road vehicle would in the same time at the same listed speed |
| 15:58 | <ChoHag> | As planes still appear to travel at 592mph but actually physically move slower than that. |
| 15:58 | <ChoHag> | (Or whatever speed is claimed...) |
| 15:59 | <Rubidium> | as such, the setting *only* allows the aircraft to speed up from the original |
| 15:59 | <ChoHag> | Terkhen: It actually works really well. |
| 15:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | <Terkhen> virtualized linux works quite fine on windows, although I never tried to do anything really crazy with it <-- yes, i do not doubt that. but windows that this bad habit of needing restarts frequently |
| 15:59 | <ChoHag> | I really want to unmap ctrl-alt-del though. |
| 15:59 | <ChoHag> | Eddi|zuHause: The linux VM can be frozen while that's done, and it isn't even that common. |
| 16:00 | <Eddi|zuHause> | ChoHag: _every_ stupid program that was installed needed a restart back when i last used windows |
| 16:00 | <ChoHag> | Yeah, I know. |
| 16:00 | <ChoHag> | I hated |
| 16:01 | <ChoHag> | it. |
| 16:01 | <ChoHag> | It's the reason I stopped using Windows around the W98 era. |
| 16:02 | <ChoHag> | But Microsoft apparently saw that they were even more of a laughing stock than usual and 7 sucks a lot less. |
| 16:02 | <ChoHag> | It still sucks, but at or below a usable level. |
| 16:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the last _good_ microsoft product was DOS 5.0 |
| 16:03 | <Rubidium> | Windows will always suck when "$it" has a single image for the plethora of systems they have |
| 16:03 | <ChoHag> | Well no. |
| 16:03 | <ChoHag> | Because DOS was shit, and it wasn't theirs. |
| 16:03 | <fjb> | Eddi|zuHause: The last good Microsoft product was IntelliMouse Optical. |
| 16:04 | <Rubidium> | Eddi|zuHause: actually... the enormous warning message sticker on the bottom of their keyboards is pretty good and amusing |
| 16:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | fjb: i bought a microsoft mouse/keyboard combination 2 years ago, had to warranty-replace it twice |
| 16:04 | <ChoHag> | Ah that's a hardware problem. |
| 16:04 | <@Alberth> | fjb: the additional keys at the keyboard were much more useful :) |
| 16:05 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Rubidium: yes, and you can only get the CD they mention in the US |
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| 16:05 | <Zuu> | Oh, I got stuck by the old problem that debian overwrites your custom xkb files and then Xorg didn't fall back to an existing keyboard layout variant. |
| 16:05 | <fjb> | Eddi|zuHause: Don't buy that cheap combinations. |
| 16:06 | <Rubidium> | Zuu: is there a bug report about that? |
| 16:06 | <Zuu> | No idea, probably as the issua has been around the last 4-5 years. |
| 16:06 | <Rubidium> | as it sounds like somewhat of a corner case to me ;) |
| 16:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | fjb: it was the only mouse in the store that actually fit my hand... |
| 16:07 | <fjb> | Hands like an ice bear? :) |
| 16:07 | <Rubidium> | Zuu: then I'd take a peek whether there actually is a report. Maybe it has an useful workaround, or the packagers simply don't know about the issue |
| 16:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, those :p |
| 16:07 | <Zuu> | Mybe there is a more proper way than modifying the files in /usr/share/xkb/... |
| 16:07 | <ChoHag> | Zuu: I gave up on using my own keyboard layout. |
| 16:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i now have a logitech mouse/keyboard (only paid the price difference) |
| 16:07 | <@Alberth> | Zuu: Your solution sounds like a non-optimal one :) |
| 16:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | hopefully that lasts longer |
| 16:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | with logitech stuff you have to be extremely careful, as they got some weird designer keyboard layouts |
| 16:08 | <fjb> | IntelliMouse Optical is the mouse which survived me the longest time yet. |
| 16:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | must really search before you find one that has normal layout |
| 16:08 | <ChoHag> | There is only one good keyboard. |
| 16:09 | <ChoHag> | I can't use it though or I'll wake my wife up when I get on the computer in the morning. |
| 16:09 | <fjb> | Cherry G80. :) |
| 16:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "the monster" :p |
| 16:09 | <ChoHag> | Cherry were OK. |
| 16:09 | <Rubidium> | a proper DIN5 IBM keyboard? |
| 16:09 | <ChoHag> | But never measured up to the Model M. |
| 16:09 | <fjb> | So no Cherry G80, which also not that quiet. |
| 16:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well, the key requirement other than fitting my hand is it must be wireless |
| 16:10 | <fjb> | Be carefull which Cherry you buy. G80 is good, G81 is ok, G83 and G84 are awful. |
| 16:10 | <ChoHag> | Just get a long wire. |
| 16:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | nope, doesn't work. |
| 16:11 | <ChoHag> | Your wire clearly isn't long enough. |
| 16:11 | <@SmatZ> | :D |
| 16:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "you have a long wire" is an insult when someone is not understanding something |
| 16:12 | <ChoHag> | Maybe they're just pleased to see you? |
| 16:20 | <Zuu> | Doesn't there exist a product that make any USB/PS2 keyboard "wireless"? |
| 16:21 | <ChoHag> | There almost certainly is. |
| 16:21 | <Zuu> | Just as there exist PS2 adapters so that you can use good old PS2 keaboards on modern computers. |
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| 16:23 | <Zuu> | For my land line that I had 6-7 years ago, I got a really long cable instead of using those wireless phones :-D |
| 16:27 | <Rubidium> | Zuu: those are called scissors ;) |
| 16:28 | <fjb> | Makes every thing wireless... |
| 16:28 | <Zuu> | Rubidium: :-D |
| 16:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Zuu: but what would that help? i'd still have that annoying cable dangling out of my keyboard if i used such an adapter |
| 16:34 | <Zuu> | Depends on if you want a keyboard model that is available as wireless or not. |
| 16:35 | <@Alberth> | Eddi|zuHause: there is an invention called 'glue' for such cases. |
| 16:35 | <Zuu> | Also 'tape' can be useful |
| 16:36 | <ChoHag> | Doesn't everyone have duck tape? |
| 16:37 | <Rubidium> | not everyone |
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| 16:37 | <ChoHag> | Strange. |
| 16:37 | <Rubidium> | duct tape might be more common though, though not even that's something everyone has |
| 16:37 | <ChoHag> | Duck and duct are both valid. |
| 16:38 | <fjb> | Taping the key board can be counter productive. |
| 16:38 | <fjb> | And taping a duck also... |
| 16:38 | <@Alberth> | the solution is of course to have 'enough' keyboards so you always have one nearby |
| 16:39 | <ChoHag> | Taping a duck is a waste of good foos. |
| 16:39 | <ChoHag> | food |
| 16:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | which one is the food? |
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| 16:52 | <andythenorth> | we need pipelines :P |
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| 16:56 | <DanMacK> | Code them :P |
| 16:57 | <fjb> | A special road set with invisible trucks. :) |
| 16:57 | <@Alberth> | lol |
| 17:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there's a station set with pipes |
| 17:03 | <Rubidium> | and an objects newgrf |
| 17:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but objects are quite unsuitible to transport anything :p |
| 17:04 | <Rubidium> | pfft... it's not even released yet ;) |
| 17:05 | <fjb> | What happened to road types? |
| 17:05 | <Eddi|zuHause> | peter1138 got distracted |
| 17:06 | <@Alberth> | he probably has a pa.. |
| 17:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | these times are long gone |
| 17:07 | <fjb> | How can we disdistract him? |
| 17:08 | <Rubidium> | possibly by offering him a (fiscally) good enough job offer for it? |
| 17:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | hmm... neighbours are quite loud for this time of day |
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| 17:33 | <@Terkhen> | good night |
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| 18:03 | <frosch123> | night |
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| 18:27 | <Wolf01> | 'night |
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| 19:32 | <Cyberdot> | hi there |
| 19:32 | <Cyberdot> | i have a question |
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| 19:33 | <Cyberdot> | how do you play your first months/years? do you go first to industries, or do you start with mail services, etc. |
| 19:35 | <TWerkhoven> | entirely your choice |
| 19:36 | <TWerkhoven> | starting passengers using planes is a good one, or delivering coal |
| 19:36 | <__ln__> | entirely Cyberdot's choice how TWerkhoven starts his game? |
| 19:36 | <TWerkhoven> | :p |
| 19:36 | <Cyberdot> | xD |
| 19:37 | <Cyberdot> | i see. and when is a truck/bus network profitable? only in suburban services, as in serving only short radius? |
| 19:38 | <TWerkhoven> | i would say so |
| 19:38 | <TWerkhoven> | you can do longe runs, but you need huge numbers for that |
| 19:40 | <Cyberdot> | trains ftw, then |
| 19:40 | <TWerkhoven> | petty much |
| 19:42 | <Cyberdot> | in large cities, where the bus stop coverage take say, half of it, and another bus stop takes the other half means that i can make business as if i was transporting people to other cities? |
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| 19:57 | <fjb> | __ln__: Trainer and player... |
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| 20:50 | <anythingffs> | guys, is there a way to completely turn off the 'Council Rating' feature? |
| 21:13 | <fjb> | Not that I'm aware of. |
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| --- | Log | closed Sun May 29 00:00:14 2011 |