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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-05-30

---Logopened Mon May 30 00:00:17 2011
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02:43<andythenorth>good gorilla
02:43<andythenorth>bon lemur
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02:48<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:17<andythenorth>FISH capacities are too large
03:17<andythenorth>wrt other sets
03:17<andythenorth>this is crappy
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03:18<@planetmaker>either you fix ship capacities or not
03:18<@Terkhen>what other sets?
03:19<@planetmaker>but you can't eat the pie and have it
03:19<@planetmaker>also, indeed, there's no point to use FISH with other ship sets concurrently
03:19<@planetmaker>from our game as I saw it yesterday, they're quite right
03:20<@planetmaker>and a good choice of different capacities
03:21<@planetmaker>and... the large ships should be able to transport what a normal-sized train can deliver
03:21<@planetmaker>and as we found out 'normal-sized' is highly subjective ;-)
03:22<@Terkhen>large ships should be able to transport a lot more than a normal sized train :P
03:22<@planetmaker>which the large 1k capacity ships also do. But that's ok and good
03:22<@planetmaker>In my first yacd game I really needed that urgently
03:28<andythenorth>the issue is the never-to-be-solved problem of scale
03:28<andythenorth>the gameplay capacities are ok (imo)
03:29<@planetmaker>you worry about scale?
03:29<@planetmaker>That's pointless ;-)
03:34<@planetmaker>as long as the set is somewhat consistent within itself. But even that is difficult with ships
03:36<@planetmaker>but I think you use the available range of sizes quite well.
03:36<@planetmaker>I'm not sure whether the island trader is too big... maybe slightly. But... dunno
03:39<andythenorth>planetmaker: I'm leaving that one until there are more ships in the range
03:40<andythenorth>it can always go down to ~300t
03:40<@planetmaker>I'm not talking about capacity. Rather sprite size
03:41<andythenorth>It's "realistic" :)
03:41<@planetmaker>in comparison to the Patraikos?
03:46<andythenorth>too much cabin compared to hold space?
03:49<andythenorth>possibly it's just not a good enough sprite :)
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03:49<andythenorth>I know it sticks out a bit somehow
03:55<@planetmaker>that ship looks considerably smaller than the island trader feels ingame
03:55<@planetmaker>the island trader - to me - feels just short of the Queen Marry 2
03:56<ChoHag>Queen marry?
03:56<ChoHag>She did.
03:56<ChoHag>Everybody hates him.
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03:59<andythenorth>planetmaker: it's probably the way it's drawn
03:59<andythenorth>accidentally, it's exactly to scale wrt length
04:00<andythenorth>(using a FISH internal scale of 1px = 2ft in – view)
04:00<andythenorth>I didn't devise a scale first, but recently I accidentally discovered that FISH is quite consistent to that scale
04:00<andythenorth>but that ship probably looks bulky in game
04:01<andythenorth>and massive wrt trains etc
04:01*andythenorth -> work
04:01<ChoHag>Work? It's a bank holiday.
04:01<andythenorth>this is the life of a capitalist exploiter
04:01<andythenorth>work 8 days a week
04:02<ChoHag>Then die at 30. Yes I know it well.
04:02*andythenorth has passed the death point
04:02<andythenorth>which is surprisingly reassuring
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05:03*andythenorth needs to decided menu names for CHIPS
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05:03<andythenorth>there will be two I think
05:03<andythenorth>one for 'magic' tiles
05:03<andythenorth>and one for 'structure tiles'
05:04<andythenorth>personally I'd rather have them all in one station menu, but the crowd seems to vote against that :P
05:24<@planetmaker>* andythenorth needs to decided menu names for CHIPS <-- chip tiles and chip stations
05:25<andythenorth>could work
05:25<andythenorth>I could just make it arbitrary
05:25<andythenorth>CHIPS - Salted
05:25<andythenorth>CHIPS - Unsalted
05:29<@planetmaker>while that is funny, it's not good interface design ;-)
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>Ketchup & Mayo
05:30<@planetmaker>then rather salted and unsalted. Salted clearly is the magic part then
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>(please don't take me seriously at this hour)
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>(Translation: "Pommes Schranke" :p)
05:33<andythenorth>CHIPS - 1
05:33<andythenorth>CHIPS - 2
05:33<andythenorth>CHIPS - ready made
05:33<andythenorth>CHIPS - make your own
05:39<andythenorth>this ferry is apparently rated to 127 PAX
05:39<andythenorth>I disbelieve it
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>in india, maybe :p
05:40<andythenorth>I think that's a typo :P
05:41<andythenorth>this is the same size as the boat I'm currently drawing
05:41<andythenorth>RL capacity 100 PAX
05:41<andythenorth>FISH capacity: 30 PAX
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't really look same size
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>the one above?
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>or what are you talking about?
05:42<andythenorth>yeah, it's longer than the one above
05:43<andythenorth>I'm just thinking out loud about scale
05:43<andythenorth>it's like scratching a wound
05:43<andythenorth>I should know better
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07:11<Roarrr>Hello, I have problem with OTTD connecting to network, could anyone help, please?
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07:17<Rediz>where are you trying to connect?
07:17<Vikthor>Describe your problem and somebody might be able to help, not me though, I am off to lunch
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07:18<Roarrr>Well, I'm trying to find servers, but i havent found any. The connection mode is on internet. I checked the firewall, its not a problem. I have tried reinstalling the game several times, but nothing.
07:18<@planetmaker>and did you check the router?
07:19<Roarrr>check the router for? I don't know much about this stuff
07:19<ChoHag>Are there any Learn OpenGL in 21 Minutes books?
07:19<@planetmaker>you're most likely connected to the internet via your modem / router
07:20<@planetmaker>it must be set to allow the port, too
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>ChoHag: generally, stay away from "learn in X minutes" books
07:20<ChoHag>Well I don't have 21 days like the normal books.
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>ChoHag: use google and do the tutorial you find there?
07:21<Roarrr>yes, thats right, planetmaker. Im connected via router. So i have to set ports from router?
07:21<@planetmaker>routers usually act as *some* sort of firewall, too.
07:21<ChoHag>They're generally awful.
07:21<@planetmaker>depending on their configuration
07:21<ChoHag>Lots and lots on drawing basic geometric shapes.
07:21<ChoHag>Then they stop just as they get started.
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>so? anything further, refer to the library documentation
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>or example code in "real" programs
07:23<Roarrr>So i got to log in to router and add a new port for OTTD, right?
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07:24<@planetmaker>not a. But the port 3979 is the default one. Server announcements iirc go via 3978
07:24<ChoHag>That's the thing. There's a huge gulf between the tutorials and actual code.
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>Roarrr: most routers allow outgoing packets by default, so you must have set some "i am paranoid" setting somewhere
07:24<ChoHag>I've filled in many of the gaps in my head, but I don't have any great need to learn it, so I've never got very far.
07:26<Roarrr>Eddi: Hmm, it works with most other games and i haven't touched router settings at all.
07:26<Roarrr>Planetmaker: thanks
07:27<Roarrr>thanks guys, ill try getting to the router and enabling that port.
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08:10<Roarrr>Hi again
08:10<Roarrr>Planemaker, you here?
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08:11<Eddi|zuHause>he's making planets, not planes...
08:11<Roarrr>sorry:D, Planetmaker
08:12<Roarrr>How do i add/open/forward OpenTTD port/ports from my router?
08:12<Roarrr>What ports does OTTD use?
08:12<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
08:13<Roarrr>thanks, so port range is from 3978 - 3979 =
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and both TCP and UDP
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08:17<Roarrr>and to what should they be translated to?
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>most important is you must allow outgoing packets
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08:50<@DorpsGek>Roarrr: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>there used to be this great invention, it's called "pen and paper"
09:07<__ln__>however, "pencil and paper" works better in zero gravity
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09:13<Eddi|zuHause>one of these "urban myth" kind of stories
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>you can use a pen upside down, you know
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>they are driven by capillary forces, not gravity.
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>and in fact, pencils are awfully dangerous in spacecraft, because things tend to break off, and debris tends to collect in the strangest places
09:17<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: so why did NASA develop their own pen then?
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: like i said, the entire story is an urban myth
09:18<@Belugas>in scuba divig, we're using pen underwater. perfect tool
09:18<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: i bought such a pen at Dulles airport last year.
09:18<@Belugas>dunno abuot space, but i'd believe it sholdbe the same
09:19<__ln__>yes, they say it should work underwater
09:19<@Belugas>it does
09:21<@Belugas>we're not too sure which hardnest should be used though.
09:22<@Terkhen>oh, linux 3.0
10:01<@Terkhen>hmmm... should I work or start a new game?
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10:28<@Belugas>i should not start a game, that's for sure :(
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22525 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belarusian - 3 changes by KorneySan
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 3 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 3 changes by Yexo
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: italian - 3 changes by lorenzodv
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13:53<fjb>Moin Wolf01
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14:21*fjb repaired his bicycle.
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15:11<ChoHag>How long does a secondary industry take to close down with no supplies?
15:14<@Terkhen>a random time IIRC, but secondary industries that do not produce cargo will never close
15:14<@Terkhen>(default secondary industries)
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16:42<HackaLittleBit>What is the reason that tunnel_map.h and tunnel_map.cpp are not combined
16:42<HackaLittleBit>and same for bridge_map.h and bridge_map.cpp?
16:43<@Yexo>why should they be combined? *_map.h contains map accessors, *_map.cpp other utility functions
16:44<@Yexo>and that general statement holds true for tunnel_map.* and bridge_map.*
16:47<HackaLittleBit>I am confused.
16:48<HackaLittleBit>Sorry yexo I don't see it.
16:48<@Yexo>you don't see what?
16:48<frosch123>maybe you wanted to ask "why tunnel_map.h and bridge_map.h are not combined?" ?
16:49<HackaLittleBit>no frosch
16:49<@Yexo>in that case: the general parts of those files are in tunelbridge_map.h/cpp
16:49<HackaLittleBit>I know.
16:49<frosch123>then i cannot get the intention of your question either
16:50<@Yexo>HackaLittleBit: _map.h contains functions directly accessing the map (every function that has _m[t].m* in it should be in a *_map.h file)
16:50<HackaLittleBit>GetBridgeEnd is that not map accessing.?
16:51<@Yexo>not directly, it only accesses the map via IsBridgeTile and GetTunnelBridgeDirection
16:51<@Yexo>those two functions are in bridge_map.h and tunnelbridge_map.h respectively
16:53<HackaLittleBit>So IsBridgeTile should be in bridge_map.cpp then.
16:54<@Yexo>the Is*Tile functions are somewhat of an exception, since they are trivial wrappers around IsTileType(*) && Is*
16:54<@Yexo>they can benefit a lot from inlining, which happens more often if they're in the same translation unit
16:55<@Yexo>at least with older compilers, not sure how the last versions of gcc handle that
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17:20<HackaLittleBit>Thanks yexo got it.
17:20<HackaLittleBit>But still a bit confused.
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17:28<Eddi|zuHause>HackaLittleBit: basically: *.h contains everything that is inlined, *.cpp everything that is not inlined
17:32<HackaLittleBit>Ah thanks eddy.
17:32<HackaLittleBit>Just tried to reduce amount of files.
17:34<HackaLittleBit>maybe something like tunnelbridge.cpp?
17:34<HackaLittleBit>sorry tunnelbridgemap.cpp
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17:35<Eddi|zuHause>there's this weird wave where sometimes it comes up to join tunnel and bridge code, and sometimes to split it apart :p
17:35<HackaLittleBit>Yeah hehehe
17:36<@Yexo>HackaLittleBit: why are you trying to reduce the amount of files at all?
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>it's not like we run out of directory entries on any sane system, so why reduce files?
17:36<@Yexo>seems pointless
17:36<@Yexo>I'd argue the other way around: some files are way too big and should be split up
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>yep. like drawing functions from *_cmd.cpp ;)
17:37<HackaLittleBit>I tried once to do this with tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp AAAAaaargh.
17:37<HackaLittleBit>I gave up
17:48<HackaLittleBit>Yexo said "trying to reduce the amount of files at all"
17:48<HackaLittleBit>Did you see how many 'map' files there are for wormholes (5).
17:48<HackaLittleBit>that is not helping readability of code (my opinion).
17:48<HackaLittleBit>Ah and now I remember why I was not able to split tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp.
17:48<HackaLittleBit>That is because it is Tiletype tunnelbridge and not tiletype tunnel and tiletype bridge
17:48<HackaLittleBit>splitting would slow down game:(
17:48<@Yexo>5? tunnel_map.h, bridge_map.h and tunnelbridge_map.h, which 2 did I miss?
17:49<@Yexo><HackaLittleBit> splitting would slow down game:( <- did you actually test that?
17:49<@Yexo>that's a cpp file, not a .h file
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18:05<HackaLittleBit>But I did not forget the tunnel bridge pool.
18:05<HackaLittleBit>I am experimenting a bit with that.
18:05<HackaLittleBit>I think the first step is making a well designed pool for bridges and tunnels
18:05<HackaLittleBit>Only after that you can split that file.
18:06<HackaLittleBit>that was a hunch.
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>really the only things that are currently different between tunnels and bridges are the construction method and the drawing, i don't think it really needs splitting
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18:18<HackaLittleBit>I don't know how you guys think about it but custom bridge heads etc. is only possible (if you do it with bridge heads) with a pool.
18:18<HackaLittleBit>That would give extra code only for bridges.
18:18<HackaLittleBit>Before you should start with a project like that it would be desirable to split that file beforehand.
18:18<@Yexo>there is nothing preventing you to do so in your own environment
18:19<@Yexo>you could use hg queues or git
18:20<fjb>Why no custom tunnel entries?
18:23<HackaLittleBit>Yexo that is too much to do alone for me.
18:23<HackaLittleBit>I am willing to help.
18:23<HackaLittleBit>fjb shure why not:)
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18:46<HackaLittleBit>thanks yexo , eddy
18:46<HackaLittleBit>time to go
18:48<Eddi|zuHause><HackaLittleBit> That would give extra code only for bridges. <-- there is the issue of "enhanced tunnels" (rails/other infrastructure on top of tunnel entrances)
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>it's kinda similar to custom bridgeheads
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>although not exactly the same
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18:49<@Terkhen>good night
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18:56<HackaLittleBit>eddy I know about all that.
18:56<HackaLittleBit>and all those things are possible if you would have enough space in the map array ( track reservation, signals etc)
18:56<HackaLittleBit>for that you need a well designed bridge pool.
18:56<HackaLittleBit>Two tiles one array
18:56<HackaLittleBit>terkhen goodnight
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>i really hope you will be getting somewhere with this ;)
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>but i certainly don't wish to be in your skin there :p
19:17<HackaLittleBit>I am just tickling your brains not pushing.
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>there was something about templating TileID to refer to different pools, i think it was in copy-paste discussion
19:19<Eddi|zuHause>maybe that is an approach worth pursuing
19:20<HackaLittleBit>I ll have a look at that.
19:20<HackaLittleBit>Time to sleep
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---Logclosed Tue May 31 00:00:19 2011