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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-05-31

---Logopened Tue May 31 00:00:19 2011
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02:31<@Terkhen>good morning
02:32<ChoHag_>Morning indeed.
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03:44<@planetmaker>nice. I thought and hoped you'd add something on the passenger network, Terkhen :-)
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03:51<@Terkhen>aircrafts are boring though
03:51<@Terkhen>I was thinking on trying the vactrain set in a passenger only game but the tracks are insanely expensive
03:52<@Terkhen>and it is not easy to make crazy amounts of money in a yacd game
03:53<Ammler>and ships aren't boring? :-)
03:54<@Terkhen>not as much
03:54<@Terkhen>you still have to think a bit
03:54<Ammler>you used almost as many ships as trains
03:55<@Terkhen>ships are also great for local passengers on big towns
03:56<@Terkhen>I prefer metro trains but we didn't have them in that game
03:57<Ammler>specially the fact that ships don't queue or crash is quite boring
03:58<Ammler>on your screen, there are aound 5 ships in one :-)
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04:00<@Terkhen>not crashing is boring? random crashing is really annoying and serves no purpose IMO
04:02<Ammler>well, I meant that ships just drive through each other
04:03<@Terkhen>yes, it would be nice to have better behaviour for them
04:08<dihedral>good morning lads
04:08<@planetmaker><Ammler> you used almost as many ships as trains <-- yes. But they substitute basically trains which would carry the same
04:09<Ammler>planetmaker: I meant according to the fact that ships are as boring as aircraft... :-)
04:11<@Terkhen>hi dihedral
04:11<@Terkhen>that's not a fact for me :P
04:13<dihedral>hello Terkhen
04:14<dihedral>and planetmaker, Ammler and the lot ;-)
04:14<Ammler>hello dihedral
04:15<Ammler>Terkhen: yes, ships are more boring, aircrafts at least have some fun on the airport :-P
04:15<@Terkhen>let's end this circular discussion as a tie :)
04:16<Ammler>mäh, ok :-)
04:20<__ln__>plural of aircraft is aircraft
04:21<@Terkhen>english is so strange
04:25<__ln__>it is
04:25<Ammler>should have used planes
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04:31<__ln__>why on earth
04:34<dihedral>plain planes :-P
04:36<__ln__>the rain in spain stays mainly in the plane
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04:51<Noldo_>in Hartford, Hereford and Hampshire hurricaned hardly ever happen
04:57<peter1139>what's special about that lot?
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06:11<@planetmaker>hi dihedral :-)
06:11<@planetmaker><Ammler> should have used planes <-- arcraft = [planes|helicopters|plimps|...]
06:13<Ammler>as said, aircraft are exiting :-)
06:13<Ammler>not that boring as ships
06:16<@planetmaker>They are exciting as they allow to use different airports at least
06:16<@planetmaker>But ships are exciting if FISH is used
06:17<@planetmaker>exciting as in look great :-)
06:17<@planetmaker>and clearly with our yacd game efficiency was not the only goal. Rather "having fun" and "working somewhat smoothly" and "looking nice" ;-) All at once
06:27<@planetmaker>For me the biggest difference from YACD to normal game actually is the money maker phase. It's much more extended
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06:32*fjb has to try YACD soon.
06:32<@planetmaker>worth it ;-)
06:33<@planetmaker>Though it still has some issues. Among them the random desync
06:33<fjb>Random desyncs are no problem in single player. :-)
06:34<fjb>FIRS is incompatible with NARS2 and UKRS2 at the moment?
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06:39<Ammler>isn't the desync already fixed in yacd dev?
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06:40<Ammler>do you earn money if you transport passenger from station A to station A?
06:41<@Yexo>I doubt it, since the payment is based on the distance
06:42<Ammler>ah indeed, there was once a discussion to use distance of the "industries", not the stations
06:42<@planetmaker>fjb, UKRS2 is fine afaik. Not sure about NARS2: re-gearing is a problem
06:42<@planetmaker>if it uses the re-gearing cargo
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07:13<fjb>There was a discussion about FIRS and regearing.
07:14<fjb>Is UKRS complete enough to be useful?
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07:25<@planetmaker>dunno, I think so. It misses IIRC modern engines
07:25<@planetmaker>UKRS2 that is. UKRS, of course
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07:27<fjb>Yes, I somewhere lost the 2. :-)
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07:29<fjb>I'm still playing my r19639 with cargo distribution based game.
07:30<Chris_Booth>how do I reset the engine pool? since I cheated the date forward and back in a game
07:30<Chris_Booth>but don't want all locos
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07:33<@planetmaker>uhm... did you try "reset_engines"?
07:33<Chris_Booth>thanks planetmaker
07:34<@planetmaker>no idea whether it makes engines un-available
07:34<peter1139>should do
07:35<Chris_Booth>it does <3
07:35<Chris_Booth>no I cheated in the 2 locos I needed
07:41<dihedral>\o/ quake3 at work :-D
07:41<dihedral>who won? :-P
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08:26<fjb>Didn't play for months. Now I remember what the problem in that games was: airports.
08:28<@Terkhen>too big? :P
08:29<fjb>Too big to build. :-)
08:30<@Terkhen>and it is hard to replace them
08:32<Eddi|zuHause>the size of the airports isn't the problem, it's there absolute inability to manage any kind of traffic
08:32<fjb>But I'm in 2001 now. So they got replaced where ever possible.
08:32<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: True. But you have to build more of them to work around that. And then size becomes an issue.
08:33<fjb>And Pikka's planes are as much fun as Andy's ships.
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>whenever i try, i never have fun with planes...
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>they end up either circling around the airport or waiting in a hanger, depending on which airport is used
08:37<@planetmaker>airports are too croweded by the year 2000. Then they need a train station attached to handle the traffic ;-)
08:38<@Terkhen>I tried a game with multiple terminals (YACD makes that really simple) but I was bored soon
08:38<@planetmaker>and we still can't introduce alternative state machines.
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>the interesting airports come way too late
08:38<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, then alter their introduction date... by newgrf ;-)
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>and like i said, you have no means to influence them once they are built, not even timetables help significantly
08:42<fjb>They hangars get overcrowded.
08:43<fjb>And I can not really add a railway station to the most problematic airport.
08:43<fjb>What happend to the new airports branch?
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>some people can't get their head around the fundamental design problems
08:47<fjb>That sounds complicated? What is the problem? The state for the movements at ground?
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>everything except the state machines is in trunk already
08:53<@planetmaker> <-- I offer you the option to rotate the small airport by 180°, fjb ;-)
08:53<@planetmaker>the other rotations and other airports are not done mostly due to missing graphics
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09:01<fjb>planetmaker: Nice, but the last small airport got upgraded some years ago. :-)
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09:08<Eddi|zuHause>rotating airports isn't all that realistic, since runways are usually built in the (prevailing) wind direction
09:12<@planetmaker>then tell me where the wind direction is ;-)
09:12<@Terkhen>please, not the wind discussion again
09:12<@planetmaker>consider airport wind socks, vehicle smoke and power plant smoke ;-)
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>this isn't about where the wind comes from. just pick a direction for runways and stick with it for all "rotations" ;)
09:14<@planetmaker>how boring
09:14<@planetmaker>but as airports usually have at least two perpendicular landing strips ;-)
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>only very few big ones have that, actually
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>and only one of those is used at any given time
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>so unless you introduce weather ;)
09:19<fjb>Moin Belugas
09:19<Ammler>[15:12] <Terkhen> please, not the wind discussion again <-- :-D
09:20<@planetmaker>hi Belugas
09:20<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: usually the landing direction is ruled by the powerful neighbours
09:20<fjb>Hm, now I have two crossing tunnels. Or would have if it would be possible. :-(
09:20<@planetmaker>fjb, cheat menu...
09:20<fjb>planetmaker: Boring.
09:21<@planetmaker>how would it be less boring if it weren't in the cheats?
09:23<fjb>That would also be boring.
09:24<fjb>I found a creative solution. I move one tunnel.
09:37<fjb>Now I only have to reroute some planes to the new airport.
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11:54<lucas92>I have some problem compiling liblzma
11:54<lucas92>the error says:
11:55<lucas92>libtool: link: cannot find the library '/mingw/lib/'
11:55<lucas92>but I check if the library is in the folder and it's there... :(
11:55<lucas92>I can compile OpenTTD fine without it
11:56<lucas92>but I would like to compile it fully
11:56<lucas92>I'm compiling with mingw and I followed the steps in the wiki
11:57<lucas92>is there anyone that have an idea?
11:57<lucas92>or should I post in the forums instead?
11:58<@Terkhen>lucas92: you probably forgot the etc\fstab step of the "Setting up MSYS" section
11:58<lucas92>I've done that
11:59<lucas92>I also modified the .bat since I'm on windows 7
12:00<@Terkhen>hmm... then I'm not sure of what could be the issue
12:00<lucas92>but I have an idea of the problem
12:00<lucas92>my ~ directory
12:00<lucas92>doesn't point to minGW
12:00<lucas92>but an another folder in C: called Cadence
12:01<lucas92>how do I correct this?
12:02<lucas92>it should point to the MinGW directory, right^
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>the ~ directory shouldn't have any influence whatsoever on building openttd
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12:02<lucas92>yeah I thought so because I've built it correctly without lzma
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>and the ~ directory would usually be your profile directory on a default mingw installation
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. "C:\Documents and Settings\Username\" or something... name varies between windows versions
12:06<lucas92>but it's not right now...
12:06<lucas92>is it important at all?
12:07<lucas92>in fact, I would just need the libraries compiled
12:08<@Terkhen>the placement of the home directory is not important... but the fact that it is not placed in the default place (\mingw\msys\1.0\home\user) makes me wonder if you followed the tutorial exactly
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12:08<lucas92>followed it exactly, I have no idea why it points to this directory
12:09<lucas92>and I don't see any home/user folder in the msys directory
12:09<lucas92>do I have to create these?
12:10<@Terkhen>it should have been created automatically
12:11<lucas92>how? when?
12:11<@Terkhen>unless something you installed defined HOME as a global variable
12:11<@Terkhen>it happened to me once when mixing different mingw installations
12:11<lucas92>how do I check HOME?
12:12<@Terkhen>control panel -> system -> advanced options -> environment variables
12:12<@Terkhen>(I'm not sure if those are the right names in english, sorry)
12:12<@Terkhen>then again, it might be something in the register too
12:13<lucas92>yes I see the HOME affected to the directory
12:13<lucas92>so where should I put it?
12:14<lucas92>C:\MinGW\msys\1.0\home\user ?
12:15<@Terkhen>if you didn't create the HOME environment variable changing it might break the program that created it in the first place
12:15<lucas92>then I copy the contents of the old HOME to this new directory?
12:15<@Terkhen>besides, it is probably not the issue
12:15<@Terkhen>unless it is doing the same for other directories
12:16<@Terkhen>hmm... libiconv should be present by default
12:16<lucas92>it is
12:16<@Terkhen>can you try to set in msys "mingw-get update" or maybe it was "mingw-get upgrade", I'm not sure
12:16<@Terkhen>just in case some package is broken
12:17<lucas92> is in C:\MinGW\lib
12:18<@Terkhen>that's the right place, yes
12:18<@Terkhen>if you really edited /etc/fstab it should find in /mingw/lib/
12:18<@Terkhen>can you paste your /etc/fstab to pastebin?
12:19<lucas92>C:\MinGW\ /usr/local
12:19<lucas92>it's just that
12:19<@Terkhen>hmm.. that's correct
12:19<lucas92>but to be sure, /mingw/lib is in which directory?
12:20<Archimedes>Hi! Would anyone happen to know if there is some good documentation avaible about the server list and how it works?
12:21<lucas92>ok, finished updating
12:21<Archimedes>Ah well i might've just found the information I was looking for.
12:22<lucas92>I'm still not sure about where /mingw/lib should be
12:23<lucas92>why is this library so difficult to compile
12:24<lucas92>the library did begin to compile also, I think the error is at the linking part
12:25<lucas92>if anyone have xz compiled for Windows and MinGW say so
12:25<@Terkhen>if you have broken paths openttd will fail anyways
12:26<lucas92>OpenTTD works correctly without it
12:26<lucas92>it just cannot save/load maps
12:26<@Terkhen>IIRC /mingw/lib is c:\mingw\lib
12:27<lucas92>then I have no idea
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12:27<lucas92>where's the bug
12:28<@Terkhen>neither do I :/
12:28<@Terkhen>try to compile openttd without it (./configure --without-lzma)
12:28<@Terkhen>but there is some issue in your mingw
12:28<lucas92>I've already built it
12:28<lucas92>it works
12:28<@Terkhen>ah, I see
12:28<@Terkhen>no clue then, sorry
12:28<lucas92>are you on Windows?
12:29<lucas92>all I need is the compiled library for MinGW
12:29<@Terkhen>I have no access to mingw right now
12:29<lucas92>might Google it
12:31<lucas92>good link?
12:31<@Terkhen>no clue
12:32<@Terkhen>I have always used self compiled xz
12:32<@Terkhen>it mentions that xz has official windows binaries, though
12:32<lucas92>so where do you put the include file and the bin files
12:32<@Terkhen>I'll look into that for the next time I update the tutorial
12:32<@Terkhen>lucas92: I don't know, follow the tutorial of whoever uploaded the binaries
12:33<@planetmaker>why do you want to compile the library and not just download it?
12:33<@Terkhen>planetmaker: because the tutorial says so :)
12:33<@planetmaker>oh :-P
12:33<@planetmaker>I'd not compile libraries but try to download them... if I weren't interested in building universal ones ;-)
12:34<@Terkhen>that's what you usually do, but it is quite rare to find libraries compiled for mingw if they are not included with mingw itself
12:35<@Terkhen>it seems that they only have been posting compiled versions for mingw since 5.0.0, when I updated the tutorial xz was in 4.999 or something like that IIRC
12:35<@Terkhen>this will make the tutorial considerably simpler; xz needs a lot of stupid stuff to compile :)
12:36<@planetmaker>hm... " Note that the MinGW distribution includes liblzma"
12:37<@Terkhen>since when? :P
12:37<@Terkhen>lucas92: try "mingw-get install mingw32-liblzma" or "mingw-get install mingw32-xz"
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12:38<lucas92>after that
12:38<lucas92>I tar it?
12:39<@planetmaker>Terkhen: no idea of "since when"... :-) Just google-hopping ;-)
12:40<@Terkhen>lucas92: did it work? did it install something?
12:40<lucas92>yes, it installed a .tar.bz2
12:40<lucas92>how do I extract it
12:40<lucas92>btw it's a beta
12:40<Archimedes>Looks like there are some people here with (OTTD) coding experience. Would it be rearlly hard to implement a new new package for the server browser which just exports the game settings (difficultiy, advanced settings)?
12:41<@planetmaker>Archimedes: openttd.cfg is exactly that...
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12:42<@Terkhen>lucas92: I was talking about the mingw-get install ...
12:42<Archimedes>planetmaker but (as far as i know) it's not possible to get the cfg without actually downloading the map (it seems). I'd like to be able to filter out servers that ... let's say have inflation on. I kind of miss such an advanced filtering option.
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12:51<@Terkhen>mingw-get should have installed the library in the right place
12:51<@Terkhen>just try to compile openttd
12:53<lucas92>mingw-get installed me a tar.bz2
12:53<lucas92>the ./configure says lzma is not detected
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12:57<@Terkhen>use the compiled version found at the xz homepage and unzip its content in c:\mingw\ then (lib over c:\mingw\lib, include over c:\mingw\include and so on)
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13:01<lucas92>still not working
13:02<@Terkhen>hmm... I don't know what else we could try :P
13:03<lucas92>anything that I could try to test if lzma is here?
13:03<lucas92>well, it's in the directory
13:04<lucas92>but to check if they work
13:04<lucas92>or maybe it's their name
13:04<@Terkhen>configure does that, that's why it says it can find it
13:04<@Terkhen>it can't *
13:04<lucas92>there's no
13:05<lucas92>in the compiled version
13:05<lucas92>while I think there was in the home version
13:07<@Terkhen>what is the "home version"?
13:08<lucas92>nvm, I think I found the problem, when I run lzmaininfo.exe, it says that my version of Windows is not supported
13:09<@Terkhen>errr... what version of windows do you have?
13:10<lucas92>Windows 7
13:10<@Terkhen>me too, so it is supported :P
13:10<lucas92>you tried with the compiled one?
13:11<@Terkhen>no, but I have windows 7 and xz works fine
13:11<lucas92>yeah, it might be the compiled on that have the problem
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13:12<@Terkhen>besides uninstalling mingw, deleting the c:\mingw folder completely and starting again I don't know what else you could try, sorry
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13:23<lucas92>oh well, I guess I won't compile OpenTTD with this library then
13:24<lucas92>are you a dev?
13:25<lucas92>nice, I have a little bit of experience with C++, played with Box2D, boost, sfml, SDL, tinyXML
13:26<lucas92>I'd be willing to help in dev
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13:26<lucas92>only used foreach, multi_array and array in boost though
13:27<@Alberth>there are plenty of problems and feature requests in the tracker, as well as in the problems and suggestions forums to try
13:27*Alberth never used boost
13:27<@Terkhen>neither did I :P
13:27<lucas92>I think it simplifies codes readablity
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13:28<lucas92>for example, let's say you want to iterate over every object of a std::vector
13:28<lucas92>you would do
13:28<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
13:28<lucas92>for(int i = 0; i < vector.size(); ++i)value = vector[i].value
13:29<lucas92>with foreach you would do that
13:29<@Alberth>lucas92: nope, you'd use the STL approach
13:29<lucas92>BOOST_FOREACH(T object, vector)
13:29<lucas92>value = T.value
13:30<lucas92>with iterators you mean?
13:30<lucas92>I don't remember too well how you do it
13:30<@Alberth>I don't see the big advantage over an explicit for() imho
13:31<@Alberth>for(iter = vector.begin(); iter != vector.end(); iter++) value = iter->value
13:32<lucas92>well, foreach can itterate over other types of list I think
13:32<@Alberth>as can iterators
13:32<lucas92>well I dunno
13:32<lucas92>maybe it wants to mimic the C# syntax
13:33<@Alberth>boost and STL iterators pre-date C#
13:33<lucas92>well XD
13:34<@Terkhen>so does foreach, IIRC it is present in some languages older than C
13:34<lucas92>there are other things that boost offers such as signals and multi-arrays
13:34<@Terkhen>signals? like qt signals?
13:34<lucas92>hum yeah
13:34<lucas92>you call a functor on the call
13:35<lucas92>anyway, have to go eat I'm back in 20 minutes
13:35<@Terkhen>signals are not that great when you have thousand of instances of different classes interacting in many different ways :P
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22526 /trunk/src/lang/serbian.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: serbian - 4 changes by etran
13:51-!-Pulec [] has quit []
13:55<lucas92>back from DINNER
14:16<lucas92>so what is to be done with the code?
14:16<lucas92>is it the to-do list in doxygen
14:16<@Terkhen>check the tracker and the forums
14:16<@Terkhen>there is no clear todo list anywhere
14:17<@Terkhen>the most important thing are always open bug :)
14:19<lucas92>I can't find the "tracker"
14:20<ccfreak2k>Here you go.
14:21-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
14:22<lucas92>what is the color code of the bugs?
14:23-!-andythenorth [] has left #openttd []
14:24-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
14:25<@Alberth>color is priority, look at the category instead
14:26<@Alberth>euhm, sorry, make that 'type' :)
14:26*andythenorth had to register with oftc again
14:26<andythenorth>how dull :P
14:26<@SmatZ>hello andythenorth
14:26<andythenorth>register / login /s
14:26<@SmatZ>why did you have to reregister?
14:26<andythenorth>probably my client is deficient
14:26<andythenorth>or some such
14:26<andythenorth>done now
14:26<@SmatZ>or you have virus?
14:26<andythenorth>mac malware?
14:27<andythenorth>probably :P
14:27<@SmatZ>more likely than you think :)
14:27<andythenorth>I saw the drive-by-download attack on sunday
14:27<andythenorth>interesting how far it gets + how well crafted it is
14:28-!-Priski [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:28<andythenorth>someone just filled the dev forum with a nice kind of spam
14:30-!-Priski [] has joined #openttd
14:32<@Alberth>evenink andy
14:37-!-Intexon [] has joined #openttd
14:42<@Yexo>hmm, the end of grfcrawler is near
14:44<andythenorth>no bad thing
14:44<andythenorth>I was going to make some updates to bananas to improve-ify bananas
14:45<andythenorth>but I lack a django dev environment
14:47<frosch123>hmm, december 2011
14:48-!-Phoenix_the_II [] has joined #openttd
14:48<frosch123>is there anything to save from that page?
14:49<frosch123>also i thought it runs on the forums and is controlled by orudge
14:49<@Yexo>that's what I thought too
14:50<@orudge>frosch123: I host it
14:50<@orudge>and personally, I have no desire to see it closed
14:50<@orudge>so, as I said in #tycoon, we'll see what happens
14:51<@Alberth>does a full backup exist?
14:51<@orudge>GRFCrawler is significantly superior to Bananas in terms of its organisation of GRFs, etc
14:51<@orudge>ie, actually categorising things
14:52<@orudge>and including little screenshots, etc
14:52<@Yexo>only by now bananas is superior in updated content
14:52<@Alberth>it needs a bit cleaning up imho
14:52<@orudge>likely so
14:52<@Alberth>lots of 'old, please use that and that grf
15:00<lucas92>finally I think I'm going to use Visual C++ lol
15:09-!-KouDy [] has joined #openttd
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15:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22527 /branches/1.1/ (6 files in 4 dirs): [1.1] -Prepare for 1.1.1
15:26<andythenorth>my plan was to add a page to bananas for each grf
15:26<andythenorth>with description, links etc
15:27<andythenorth>but plans are not horses
15:28<@Terkhen>that would be great, right now it just links to an outside web
15:31<andythenorth>it would be the best compromise if links are never going to be clickable in-game
15:31<andythenorth>there was also an argument about a url shortener, which I seemed to lose :P
15:31<andythenorth>although I was right
15:31<Chris_Booth>@seen michi_cc
15:31<@DorpsGek>Chris_Booth: michi_cc was last seen in #openttd 2 days, 9 hours, 16 minutes, and 40 seconds ago: <michi_cc> frosch123: They don't. Not that it would be hard to hadd.
15:32<Chris_Booth>not here for a long time
15:32<Chris_Booth>any other YACD devs here?
15:32<andythenorth>there is only one
15:32<andythenorth>2 days is not long
15:33<andythenorth>and he said he would be busy for several weeks
15:33-!-zodttd [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:33<@Terkhen>I guess he will see the highlight :)
15:33-!-zodttd [] has joined #openttd
15:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22528 /tags/1.1.1/ (10 files in 4 dirs): -Release: 1.1.1
15:36-!-amkoroew [] has joined #openttd
15:39<Chris_Booth>yes I am sure he will
15:39<Chris_Booth>or read my forum post
15:40<Chris_Booth>I just find it quick to tell in here sometimes
15:47*andythenorth ponders
15:48*andythenorth stops
15:49<lucas92>generating OpenTTD is long on Visual C++
15:50-!-Phoenix_the_II [] has joined #openttd
15:55*andythenorth can't see how to fix FIRS industry probabilities at map-gen
15:56<andythenorth>depending on start date, player gets too many or too few of each industry
15:56-!-elmz [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:57<andythenorth>any suggestions?
15:59<Hirundo>Too few/many industries in total, or of certain types?
15:59<andythenorth>certain types
15:59<andythenorth>adjusting the probabilities for date wxyz just causes problems for date abcd
15:59*Alberth considers changing probability handling as well
16:00<andythenorth>separately I think there's an issue with random construction during gameplay, but I can't prove it
16:00<@Alberth>in what way?
16:01<@Alberth>I consider to be a problem
16:01<andythenorth>in every test game I've played, if I start prior to 1923, I get no aluminium plants during gameplay
16:02<andythenorth>if I start after 1923, I get aluminium plants at map gen
16:02<@Alberth>ie if there is no room for an industry at the map, the game should generate less of that type, whatever its prio says
16:02<andythenorth>(availability is obv. 1923 for alu. plant)
16:02<andythenorth>^ the issue I describe above is based on limited sample size
16:02-!-Kurimus [] has quit []
16:03<andythenorth>so if it's really random, the behaviour could be correct, and I'm just seeing a particular random effect
16:03<@Alberth>priority of the al plant is similar to other industries?
16:03<andythenorth>think so
16:03<andythenorth>does map gen try any harder to build an industry?
16:03<andythenorth>alu plant is large and hard to build
16:03<@Alberth>it uses different prios
16:03<andythenorth>I suspect I know the issue
16:04<andythenorth>there are limited sites available
16:04<andythenorth>those sites are likely to be more contended by other industry during gameplay than at map-gen
16:05<@Alberth>I don't know the order in which industries are generated at the map
16:05<andythenorth>if there are n possible sites, during map gen p from n may be available
16:05<@Alberth>besides first trying to generate 1 for each necessary industry
16:05<andythenorth>whereas during gameplay, all n sites may be occupied
16:05<@Alberth>yeah, but depending on when the al plant is tried
16:05<andythenorth>I wondered that
16:06<andythenorth>is the order deterministic? I think asked a while back and the answer was 'no'
16:06<andythenorth>testing is boring
16:06<@Alberth>better read the code :)
16:06<andythenorth>we need a test server for these things, like a nightly buildbot that runs reports on the major industry sets :P
16:06<andythenorth>accessible via hudson on the devzone
16:07<andythenorth>incidentally I've seen the oil rig issue in a FIRS game
16:07<andythenorth>I thought I'd screwed up FIRS code, but perhaps not
16:09<@Alberth>I'd like to dig into these problems, but not now, too little time left today
16:09<@Alberth>we could make a wiki or have some PMs exchanged or so?
16:10<andythenorth>or a forum thread
16:11<@Alberth>about the generation issue, afaik the industry can only tell the priority of getting build. 0 means do not build, but I don't have information when that changes. That makes planning for room for a new industry type complicated
16:11<andythenorth>I think it's a thorny problem
16:11<andythenorth>especially when you mix in availability
16:11<andythenorth>I wonder about pre-seeding the entire map
16:11<andythenorth>but there might be no storage for that
16:12<andythenorth>determine in advance spots where industry x might appear
16:12<andythenorth>it would need to be robust against numerous factors though
16:12<andythenorth>terraforming, town growth, routes
16:12<@Alberth>oh, I have that idea too :)
16:12<andythenorth>I'm 99% certain railroad tycoon did it that way
16:12<@Alberth>but you'll see many oil-rig issues then :)
16:12<@Alberth>I'd make great scenarios imho
16:12-!-KritiK [] has joined #openttd
16:13<andythenorth>I'm not certain it's feasible by any means, but it's worth exploring
16:13<andythenorth>it might throw up another idea
16:13<@Alberth>euhm 32 cargo-types, right?
16:13<andythenorth>and no more required :)
16:13<@Alberth>@calc 64*64*32/8
16:13<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 16384
16:14<@SmatZ>one bit per cargo type?
16:14<@Alberth>ie have 64x64 zones at the map, one bit per zone per cargo for yes/no
16:15<@SmatZ>so on a 128x128 map, there would be 4 the same 64x64 zones?
16:15<@Alberth>a zone would be 2x2
16:16<@Alberth>ie at 2048 I see no gain in being very precise
16:16<@Alberth>@calc 2048/64
16:16<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 32
16:16<@Alberth>a zone of 32x32 is still nice
16:18<@Alberth>not sure that you actually want this for every cargo type though
16:18<@SmatZ>I thought it would be done for industry types, not cargo types
16:19<@SmatZ>but I didn't follow the discussion :x
16:19<@SmatZ>do you want the newgrf to somehow generate a 32x32 bitmap for each cargo type?
16:19<@SmatZ>that sounds very complicated
16:19<@Alberth>industry types could be used too, I was more thinking about having primary cargo available 'in the ground' at some places
16:20<@Alberth>no, I think it is part of a scenario
16:20<@Alberth>ie an additional restriction where to build some industry
16:20<@Alberth>ie a coal mine can only be build in a zone with coal :)
16:21<@SmatZ>on a 64x64 map, the rules would be too strict
16:21<@SmatZ>I think
16:21<@Terkhen>that sounds similar to that old suggestion of having different "zones" in the map, each one with different industries, houses and so on
16:21<@SmatZ>wasn't that actually implemented? at least for towns
16:22<@Alberth>SmatZ: why? nothing stops you from making all zones have coal?
16:22<@Alberth>it is just very precise
16:22<andythenorth>this could be done by newgrf
16:22<@Alberth>only for houses iirc
16:23<andythenorth>it would be arcane currently as no grf-global storage :P
16:23<andythenorth>but using x and y it could be done
16:23<@SmatZ>Alberth: yeah, well :) I just have problems getting rid of splitting the map to "super-tiles" :)
16:23<@SmatZ>which would have the same size no matter how big the map is
16:24<@SmatZ>what you say the "super-tile" would be 1/32x1/32 of the map size
16:24<@Yexo>SmatZ: yes, I implemented that for towns/houses
16:24<@SmatZ>but I see the advantage
16:24<@SmatZ>Yexo: actually I didn't want to highlight you :)
16:24<@Alberth>you don't want to split?
16:25<@SmatZ>Alberth: thinking about that, your idea is better, since it scales fine with the map size
16:25<@Alberth>Yexo has a 6th sense :)
16:25<@SmatZ>hehe :)
16:25<@Yexo>now that would be cool :)
16:37<@SmatZ>Alberth: maybe that would either increased or decreased the chance of creating industry that produces/accepts multiple cargos
16:37<@SmatZ>or you would have to compensate for that somehow
16:38<@SmatZ>like - both bits 1->it can be placed here
16:38<@SmatZ>one bit 1-> industry can be placed here if (Random() & 1)
16:38<@SmatZ>or so :)
16:38<@Alberth>I was thinking either bit
16:39<@SmatZ>then "livestock == 1" would imply "grain == 1", and vice versa
16:39<@SmatZ>for default cargos...
16:39<@Alberth>and to keep the coal mine example, it would need restrictions on produced cargo
16:40<@Alberth>I haven't given it much thought yet, perhaps & is better, or perhaps we need more bits to express other ideas
16:41<@SmatZ>with &, "livestock == 0" would imply "grain == 0", and vice versa
16:41<@SmatZ>but yeah, that idea sounds good :)
16:42<lucas92>awesome, got it compiled fully with VC++
16:43<@Alberth>your idea of doing it for industry types may be better, at least it is more direct
16:44<@Alberth>lucas92: you spend an hour waiting for a compiler?
16:44<lucas92>no, actually I didn't installed VC correctly
16:44<lucas92>and installed the directx
16:44-!-Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
16:44<frosch123>@topic set 1 1.1.1
16:44-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.1 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only
16:46<lucas92>so what are you working on?
16:46<Rubidium>the most important thing to do right now ;)
16:47<andythenorth>playing yacd
16:47<andythenorth>or like me, updating cashflow documents?
16:47*Terkhen is playing yacd :P
16:47*andythenorth suspects Rubidium is probably doing cashflow
16:48<@Terkhen>after the freight game passenger only games are boring :/
16:48<@Terkhen>lucas92: regarding code, not much, it's been months since I coded anything "big" for OpenTTD
16:48<@Terkhen>there are a lot of people here with suggestions for coding if that's what you want :P
16:49*Alberth messes with code segement 2AE1 of Opendune
16:49<Ammler>add static grf support to the gui
16:49<lucas92>ugh how am I supposed to know how lol
16:50<@Alberth>while true: read code, try changes, ask questions
16:50<@Terkhen>if you don't know what to code, play a game, after a while you will notice something that annoys you :)
16:50<@Terkhen>that's what I usually do
16:51<@Terkhen>after you get to know the code, you will also find stuff in the code that bothers you :P
16:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22529 /trunk/docs/ (32bpp.txt openttd.6): -Doc (r22419): Reflect removal of '-i' option in documentation.
16:51<frosch123>someone wants to write a news post? :p
16:52*andythenorth tries not to read source too much, there be dragons
16:53*Alberth wonders how andy manages to change nfo code
16:53<frosch123>Alberth: if the dragon is big enough, you cannot see it
16:53<@Terkhen>if openttd code has dragons, nfo has lovecraftian stuff
16:54<@Alberth>that's what I like about irc, you learn new words all the time :p
16:54<@Yexo>it gets scary when you realize you can read varaction2 code while only looking up what the variables are
16:54<lucas92>the code is so huge! I get lost
16:55<@Terkhen>lucas92: I started by checking existing patches, that way you get to know a "single" part of the code and how to modify it
16:55<lucas92>how do you check these?
16:55<@Terkhen>you can also check the commit log for commits related to what you want to do
16:55<@Yexo>same here, I started with a patch for waypoints
16:55<@Terkhen>there are many patches in the development forum and in the bug tracker
16:55<Ammler>Zuu: [22:55] <MrD2DG> Openttd Auto update just failed :/
16:55<@Alberth>lucas92: that's normal, I haven't seen all code yet and I dig around in that code since 2007 or so
16:56<@Terkhen>yes, there are parts of the code that really have dragons :P
16:56<Ammler>Zuu: [22:55] <MrD2DG> Just got a message "failed to get updated release list from internet"
16:57<@Alberth>lucas92: I started by reading code, and adding doxygen comments to undocumented parts
16:57<@Terkhen>meh, passenger only yacd is now boring, I'll start a new game tomorrow
16:58-!-sllide [] has joined #openttd
16:58<@Alberth>then I turned that documented code upside down :p
16:58<Ammler>Zuu: guess it is only for him, the status page works here
16:59<@Alberth>good night
16:59-!-Devroush [] has joined #openttd
16:59<lucas92>@param is for documentation?
17:00<@Yexo>you'll see it on
17:00-!-Alberth [] has left #openttd []
17:01<lucas92>I see plenty of code improvements, for example, many functions have int types, while they could be const int types
17:02-!-Lakie [~Lakie@] has quit [Quit: Sleep.]
17:02-!-Phoenix_the_II [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:02<@Yexo>in general the code doesn't use const for integer types for function arguments
17:02<@Yexo>it's just not done anywhere in the code
17:02<lucas92>it could?
17:02<@Yexo>yes, it could
17:02<@Yexo>I doubt there would be a measurable performance benefit though
17:03<lucas92>ah ok
17:03<@Yexo>if there was, it would be a very good improvement
17:03<@Yexo>if there isn't, there would be no reason to change it
17:04<lucas92>for example, the videoDriver class?
17:04<lucas92>void MakeDirty(int left,int top,int width,int height)
17:04<andythenorth>he's gone :P
17:04*andythenorth was going to say nfo is trivial compared to real code
17:04<andythenorth>there are no types or anything to deal with
17:04<lucas92>could be void MakeDirty(const int left,const int top,const int width,const int height)
17:05<@Yexo>lucas92: if you can show (after testing) that adding const there would make the code faster, it'd be worth it
17:05<@Terkhen>andythenorth: that might be true, but it is still more confusing :)
17:05<andythenorth>I am probably a bit special in my approach to coding :P
17:05-!-Adambean [] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing]
17:06<andythenorth>also...quite a few times I read src, I find things that are not quite what they claim to be :P
17:06<@Terkhen>maybe I am too used to c++
17:06<andythenorth>C++ baffles me
17:06<andythenorth>I may not have tried properly
17:07<lucas92>you mean faster for compilation time or running time?
17:07<fjb>cat /dev/random > code.nfo
17:07<@Terkhen>besides VB before starting university, and a small amount of java and php code in some classes, I have only coded c++ :)
17:07<@Yexo>for running time, that's the only thing that matters
17:07<@Terkhen>lucas92: performance
17:08*andythenorth has only coded actionscript, javascript, python, and nfo
17:08<lucas92>yeah, const only optimize compilation time
17:08<lucas92>oh well
17:08<@Terkhen>and testing performance on windows is... quite difficult to say the least :)
17:08<@Yexo>if it makes a real good improvement on compilation time that's welcome of course
17:08*andythenorth forgot BBC Basic and RISC OS Basic :P
17:08<andythenorth>and Director
17:08<lucas92>oh ok
17:08*andythenorth is monologuing and will go away
17:08<@Yexo>but it'd have to be significant (let's say 10% or so) for it to be worthwhile
17:08<@Terkhen>I started with BASIC too, on an old zx spectrum :)
17:09<@Terkhen>I barely understood the stuff, though
17:09<lucas92>ok, I will take a look at it
17:09<andythenorth>I coded animations, and some crappy games
17:09<andythenorth>mostly I coded this though:
17:09<andythenorth>10 print 'fuck'
17:09<andythenorth>20 goto 10
17:09<andythenorth>which amused me when I was 12
17:09<@Terkhen>I copied examples from the book and messed them up until they did what I wanted
17:09<@Terkhen>which now that I think of it is surprisingly similar to what I do now :P
17:10<andythenorth>there was an enhancement in my code above
17:10<andythenorth>> mode 2
17:10<andythenorth>color = rnd (16)
17:10<@Terkhen>heh :D
17:10-!-sla_ro|master [~slaco@] has quit []
17:10<andythenorth>meh, forgot the line number
17:10<andythenorth>what happened to line numbers? They were useful
17:10-!-Neon [] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.]
17:10<andythenorth>it's not at all an insane way to code
17:11<@Terkhen>you can use labels on c++ to use goto, but it is not "good code"
17:11<@Terkhen>code with gotos is quite difficult to review and understand
17:11<frosch123>lucas92: "readability" is also a goal. so i am not a big fan of making every third word "const" :)
17:11<@Terkhen>unless for performance, if that can be proven :P
17:12<__ln__>Terkhen: there's one sensible use case for goto
17:12<@Terkhen>which one? openttd has a few gotos anyways
17:13<__ln__>avoiding having a dozen places in a function where the function may return;
17:14<@Terkhen>I thought that compilers optimized that at least in part
17:15<__ln__>having a dozen points of exit is not very readable
17:15<frosch123>__ln__: there is a second use case: continueing or breaking nested loops
17:16<__ln__>frosch123: that too
17:20-!-roboboy [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:22<andythenorth>happy days:
17:22<andythenorth>it used to be I could remember how to put the swearwords into an array and choose them at random :P
17:23<lucas92>oh well, I think I'll drop the idea with the const keywords
17:24*andythenorth has now written enough useful code today and should go to bed
17:24<andythenorth>3 lines of highly useful code :P
17:24<@Terkhen>indeed :)
17:24<@Terkhen>good night andythenorth
17:24<andythenorth>maybe I should GPL that program :P
17:25<@Terkhen>if you gpl it someone will try to patch the foul language away :(
17:25<andythenorth>I should keep it just for myself?
17:25<andythenorth>it's pretty clever :P
17:26*andythenorth wonders if today's generation of script kiddies have done stuff like that
17:26<@Terkhen>do a special license
17:26<@Terkhen>"free for any use, as long as the swearing is kept without changes"
17:26*andythenorth bedtime
17:26-!-andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
17:27<@planetmaker>good night
17:27<@Terkhen>night andy
17:36<lucas92>Some other thing I see in the code that could be improved for the code readablility is the position
17:37<lucas92>for example, void DrawVehicleEngine(int left, int right, int preferred_x, int y, EngineID engine, PaletteID pal)
17:38-!-Noldo_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:38<lucas92>could become void DrawVehicleEngine(Vector2 position, Vector2 prefered_position, EngineID engine, PaletteID pal)
17:38-!-goblin [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
17:38<lucas92>Vector2 would be a utility class that defines a 2D vector
17:38<lucas92>with a x and y coordinate
17:39<@Terkhen>it looks more or less the same to me, besides, int left and int right are not a position
17:39<Zuu>Ammler: It dose work from here. Either a temporary problem at his side or with
17:40<@Terkhen>IIRC they are the space you have for drawing
17:40<Ammler>Zuu: yes, loading the status page took also long for him
17:40<@Terkhen>anyways, code readability changes are not a big priority, unless they are in *really* confusing parts of the code
17:40<Ammler>maybe you have a kind of timeout?
17:40<Zuu>I think so. I don't remember what it is.
17:40<@Terkhen>I'm too sleepy to remember an example, though :P
17:41<Zuu>But there is a timeout so that it shouldn't take too long to start it when you are offline.
17:42-!-Noldo [] has joined #openttd
17:42<Zuu>After it times out with it also tries the secondary server which apparently he also had problems to reach.
17:43<Zuu>The secondary server is at my web host here in Sweden.
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17:47<lucas92>what with the FORCEINLINE macro? What is its use?
17:49<@Yexo>it expands to __forceinline for msvc
17:49<@Yexo>for gcc just to inline
17:50<+glx>ask KUDr :)
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18:12<Eddi|zuHause>hmm... 1.1.1 before midnight?
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18:15<@Terkhen>that way we can go earlier to bed :)
18:15<@Terkhen>good night
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18:51<fjb>Hm, configure doesn't find liblzma.
19:00<fjb>Ah, liblzma has no metadata file for pkg-config. And configure relies on pkg-config.
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19:22<rplnt>Hello, I'm interested in the format of the save file (especially the land/map part) and how could I read it. Could someone point me to the right part of the documentation and/or part of the source tree (I found some load/save file but wasn't quite dure if it is it). Thanks
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>it's a RIFF format that is compressed.
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>the structure of each chunk is described in the files in src/saveload/
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>the map structure is described in docs/landscape.html
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>for easier testing, you can make uncompressed savegames with an option in openttd.cfg
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>"savegame_format = none" or similar
19:37<rplnt>Eddi|zuHause: thank you
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20:12<fjb>Does realistic acceleration make horse carriages slow?
20:13<Eddi|zuHause>when they have no proper max TE set
20:15<fjb>The horse carriages from eGRVS are reaching astonishing 1km/h.
20:15<Eddi|zuHause>yep, that's the minimum speed
20:16<Eddi|zuHause>eGRVTS is older than realistic rv acceleration
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20:16<Mazur>Any Germans about?
20:16<fjb>Looks like there is no sane fallback in this case.
20:16*fjb hides.
20:17<Mazur>Or anyone who can tell me which key is referred to with: Strg
20:17<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: it likely gets filled with some default value, which is too low given the little weight that a horse has
20:17<Eddi|zuHause>Mazur: Strg=Ctrl
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20:19<fjb>So I should switch realistic acceleration off till I leave the horse age.
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: you have four options at this point
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>1) keep on babbling on how wrong everything is
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>2) live with it and keep quiet
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>3) turn off realistic acceleration
20:20<Eddi|zuHause>4) update eGRVTS with sane values
20:20<fjb>What license does eGRVTS use?
20:20<Eddi|zuHause>no idea
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20:32<fjb>Hm, only the biggest sailing ship can transport fish. But a fish clipper looks strange.
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20:40<Eddi|zuHause>iirc that was discussed at lengths in the thread
20:42<fjb>In witch of that many threads? About sailing ships?
20:43<Eddi|zuHause>each grf tends to have one single (development) thread.
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21:01<lucas92>hey OpenTTD 1.1.1 !!!
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21:05<fjb>The grf in the thread is newer than the one on bananas.
21:07<fjb>Hm, how do I replace a grf in a running game?
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---Logclosed Wed Jun 01 00:00:26 2011