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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-06-01

---Logopened Wed Jun 01 00:00:26 2011
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00:59<@Terkhen>good morning
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01:37<@planetmaker>moin
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01:38<manveru>heya
01:39<manveru>just wanted to thank you guys, haven't had a chance to play this in over a decade :)
01:40<@planetmaker>:-)
01:41<@Terkhen>:)
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04:11<peter1139>http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=cache:lmgtfy.com
04:15<@planetmaker>:-D nice
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04:32<@planetmaker>hehe. After some time it gives the page "Our system has detected unusual traffic from your site. Enter <some captcha>" ;-)
04:33<peter1139>hehe
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06:14<__ln__>http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6163683/cycles-in-family-tree-software
06:18<peter1139>urgh
06:20<fjb>Moin.
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>typical case of "your academical assumptions do not hold in the real world"
06:21<fjb>And that real world problem is not really that uncommon.
06:22<__ln__>Certainly not, especially when considering a bit larger cycles.
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>you're thinking confluences... cycles are really only possible with direct descendents, and then you can't have too many generations between them :p
06:24<fjb>Depends, up to 4 should be possible.
06:24<Eddi|zuHause>it's an odd discussion topic this early :p
06:25<fjb>That topic is always odd in our current culture.
06:27<fjb>To get back on topic: Is it not possible any more to change grfs in a running game?
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>yes
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>but we won't tell people how :p
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>rule number one is we don't talk about it
06:28<fjb>And if I'm not a people?
06:28<@planetmaker>only scenario developers and newgrf developers are assumed to know the associated risks and not blame any related crashes onto OpenTTD ;-)
06:28<@planetmaker>was that hint enough when looking at your config file?
06:29<fjb>Ah, a config file... didn't expect something there. :-)
06:30<@planetmaker>every setting... should be there
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>the console works as well ;)
06:31<@planetmaker>yes :-) But * developers know that :-P
06:32*fjb had expected something else under that setting.
06:34<@planetmaker>in case of doubt use the lesser tool box - which is the scenario developer tools
06:34<fjb>And it could also have been hidden under a magic key combination which OpenTTD has many.
06:34<@planetmaker>well... but even then it would need to be a setting
06:36<fjb>Not in every case. It would also have been hidden from the casual user.
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06:37<fjb>But thanks any way.
06:43<fjb>Oh, many new things. The production chain view is great.
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06:44<@planetmaker>:-) But that's unrelated to developer settings. But VERY helpful indeed :-)
06:45<fjb>Both is very helpful.
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08:09<lucas92>hi
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08:20<@planetmaker>ho
08:23<Ammler>huhu
08:26<@planetmaker>huhu Ammler :-)
08:27<@planetmaker>I saw this morning that someone - I assume you - already had updated our stable server :-) Thanks
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08:33<Ammler>yep almost same time as the news on openttd.org
08:33<Ammler>is is such a nice version string :-)
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08:39<@planetmaker>hehe, yeah :-)
08:39<@planetmaker>will be the nicest one for long, I guess
08:39<@planetmaker>The next similarily nice one will be 1.2.3 possibly ;-)
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>2.3.5 ;)
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08:46<Ammler>well, the next release could be called 1.1.1.1
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08:53<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, if you go by Fibonacci, then 1.1.2 is just as good - and much closer :-P
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>i was actually thinking consecutive primes
08:53<@planetmaker>:-)
08:54<@planetmaker>1.2.3 would fit :-P
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>1 is not a prime
08:54<@planetmaker>depending on whether 1 is prime or not
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>that is not even questionable... it does not make any sense to declare 1 a prime
08:55<@planetmaker>why not? It's divisible by 1 and itself ;-)
08:56<@planetmaker>but those divisors are not distinct...
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>absolutely no system benefits from 1 being a prime. it only complicates things
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>every single proposition about primes that currently hold would read "every prime except 1"
08:57<@planetmaker>:-)
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>the most obvious one being the prime factorisation
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>if you allowed 1, it would not be unique anymore
08:57<@planetmaker>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_number#Primality_of_one
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>that discussion was settled 100 years ago
08:58<@planetmaker>Lebesgue is not such bad company :-P
08:59<Noldo>does it really make any difference
08:59<Noldo>it's all about consepts, how they are defined and what are the axioms
09:00<@planetmaker>read the link I provided. It gives cases where it makes a difference.
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>aside from the above prime factorisation, 1 (or any "unit", i.e an element with a multiplicative inverse element) gets in the way if you extend primes to other structures than natrual numbers
09:03<Noldo>yes, some theorems are not valid in another set on axioms and are valid in others
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>this discussion is over. for 100 years already. the "1 is not prime" guys won. get over it.
09:08<Noldo>if it's important to you
09:09<Belugas>hello
09:17<lucas92>about the trains with the .5 indicator
09:17<lucas92>I would have put 1/2 instead
09:17<lucas92>for example 61/2
09:17<lucas92>1/2 smaller
09:17<lucas92>than 6
09:17<@Yexo>lucas92: and what about 6.4?
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09:17<@Yexo>display 6 2/5 ?
09:18<lucas92>yeah
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>lucas92: that was tried, and declined
09:18<lucas92>but I'm talking about openTTD
09:18<lucas92>when does this happen
09:18<lucas92>2/5?
09:18<@Yexo>newgrf vehicles
09:18<lucas92>ahh yeah
09:18<@Yexo>lengths are in 1/8 units
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>lucas92: vehicles can be shortened in steps of 1/16
09:18<@Yexo>so 2/5 can't actually happen
09:19<@Yexo>ah, 1/16 of a tile indeed
09:19<lucas92>anyway, I like better fractions, because trains are not numbers lol
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/consistlengths2.png
09:20<lucas92>yeah like that
09:20<lucas92>awesome
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>it was decided to go the other way that you see now.
09:20<lucas92>is this going to be in the stable release?
09:20<lucas92>aww
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09:21<lucas92>but decimals dont make any sense with trains
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>so?
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>why do decimals make less sense than fractions?
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>they are just another representation of the same values
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>and _everything_ is a number in a computer game
09:22<lucas92>because you wont say I drank 0.5 of a water bottle
09:22<lucas92>you would say I drank a half of a water bottle
09:22<lucas92>lol
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>it says "1,5l" on my bottle
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>this is a stupid argument.
09:22<lucas92>anyway
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>i say "one pound" and not "half a kilo" at the butcher's
09:23<lucas92>but they are not even the same unit
09:23<lucas92>you can't compare apples with oranges
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes, they are. in germany, one pound is defined as 500g
09:25<lucas92>I mean, you would say it's half a pound, not 0.5 pound
09:25<lucas92>or you would say 500 g
09:25<lucas92>two different names
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>half a pound would be 250g, obviously
09:25<lucas92>oops
09:25<lucas92>yeah
09:26<lucas92>I'm not too familiar with english unity
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>it's not an english pound
09:26<lucas92>I'm more familiar with the Kg/meters/seconds unity
09:26<lucas92>no?
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>in germany, around the 1850's, it was decided to unify the ~50 different measurement systems in use across the country, and go with the SI units
09:27<lucas92>ok, but pound is not SI
09:27<lucas92>g is
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>at that point, "pound" meant something different throughout the country, so the new "metric pound" was defined as something in the middle, and easily comparable to metric units
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>so "1 pound" got exactly "500g"
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>this made transition easier, as the local population still could use "pound"
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>but now it meant something very specific
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>2 pounds = 1 kilo
09:29<lucas92>ok well it's not that bad of a unit
09:30<lucas92>well, the point is that you can't do unit conversions with trains
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>it very slowly grows out of fashion now, but it is still widely understood
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>but it doesn't count trains
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09:30<Eddi|zuHause>it counts tiles
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. length units
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>you can say a train is 500m
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09:30<Eddi|zuHause>or a train is 0,5km
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>means exactly the same
09:31<lucas92>hmm yeah
09:31<lucas92>from that point of view
09:32<lucas92>but when it says 6.5 what does that mean?
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>6 tiles and one half?
09:33<lucas92>yeah
09:33<lucas92>exactly
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>so?
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>previously it said "13", what did that mean then?
09:33<lucas92>well, it's more like 61/2?
09:34<lucas92>13 cargo trains
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>(61)/2 is something very different
09:34<lucas92>no 6 1/2
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>lucas92: but it also said 13 if i had 17 wagons
09:34<lucas92>lol
09:34<lucas92>really?
09:34<lucas92>hmm
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>when the 17 wagons were shorter
09:35<lucas92>then decimals are better
09:35<@petern>...
09:35<@petern>it's measured in tile lengths now
09:35<@petern>instead of original-size wagon lengths
09:36<lucas92>I find it still weird to call a half of a tile 0.5 tile
09:36<@petern>why?
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>you missed 5th grade maths or something?
09:36<@petern>is 0.5 = 1/2 a difficult concept for you?
09:36<lucas92>you wouldn't say 0.5 orange
09:36<@petern>you would say 0.5 metres
09:36<lucas92>yes
09:37<lucas92>anyway, tile seems to be a measure unity so it's fine like that too
09:39<lucas92>I'm glad that Germany denied nuclear power
09:39<@petern>good luck with your wind farms
09:40<lucas92>yeah, not sure if coal is better than nuclear anyway
09:40<lucas92>it's still a lot of air pollution
09:40<@petern>of course it's not
09:40<lucas92>while Nuclear was pollution free but with nuke risks
09:41<lucas92>hydroelecticity is the best
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>"pollution free" is a myth anyway
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09:41<Eddi|zuHause>hydroelectricity has its own disadvantages
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>and it's basically exhausted already
09:42<lucas92>not where I live
09:42<@petern>you could create a load of lakes
09:42<@petern>but that's not exactly... clean
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>lucas92: in densly populated germany, it is.
09:42<lucas92>yes
09:42<lucas92>in Canada, there's still a lot of potential
09:43<@petern>screw the rest of the world, we're alright!
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>but how do you get the power from canada to germany? :p
09:43<__ln__>lucas92: coal is a lot worse than nuclear
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: but coal doesn't tend to explode and devastate huge strips of land
09:44<__ln__>no, it kills silently
09:44<lucas92>lol
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>small exercise: google for "east ural trail"
09:44<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: also, nuclear doesn't "tend" to do that
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>hm... "track" not "trail"
09:44<lucas92>I'm not sure but I think they are working on a way to market the electricity right now
09:45<__ln__>radiation emissions of coal are higher than with nuclear, although that's not what kills
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: it's actually not about the emmissions during "normal operation"
09:46<lucas92>but do Germany have lot of earthquakes?
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>lucas92: yes, but smaller ones, up to strength 5
09:47<fjb>It has some.
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>not 8-9 like japan
09:48<lucas92>yeah that's kinda stupid not using nuclear power then
09:48<fjb>What do you do with the waste?
09:48<@petern>14:39 < lucas92> I'm glad that Germany denied nuclear power
09:48<@petern>nice :p
09:48<lucas92>lol
09:49<@petern>opinion swing in 9 minutes :p
09:49<lucas92>yeah medias suck
09:49<lucas92>they always seem to disinform about the actuality that is far away
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>one of the major critique points was that some nuclear power stations were not designed to withstand earthquake strengths that actually did happen in the last 100 recorded years
09:50<+glx><fjb> What do you do with the waste? <-- you send them in france, like every other countries in the world ;)
09:50<lucas92>lol
09:50<lucas92>you send them into space
09:50<fjb>It would be far to expensive to build that strong nuclear power plants.
09:51<fjb>glx: The french tend to send it back. :(
09:51<lucas92>you throw them into a black hole
09:51<__ln__>glx: nah, we send it to soviet union or russia. (though not anymore after it became politically incorrect)
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>lucas92: have you seen futurama? :p
09:51<lucas92>no
09:51<lucas92>lol
09:51<lucas92>is that a comics?
09:51<+glx>fjb: yes but it's usually less dangerous when sent back
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>yes
09:52<fjb>glx: The opinions about that differ. :)
09:52<__ln__>the waste can probably be reused in the future to get more energy from it.
09:52<+glx>or to make bombs
09:53<__ln__>glx: whichever is more beneficial at the time
09:53<fjb>Can probably... Are you sure? And when will that be? How to store it in a secure way until then?
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>it is illegal to ignite a nuclear explosion in germany
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>punishable by up to 5 years jail, or money fee.
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>(unless you actually kill people, then that weighs more :p)
09:54<lucas92>lol
09:54<fjb>So we could send some people to jail for up to 5 years if one of the german nuclear power plants explodes.
09:54<__ln__>fjb: i've reading sources that say it can be done. it's stored somehow right now, and even if shutting down the plants, the waste needs to be stored some way.
09:55<fjb>__ln__: But every day a produces more waste.
09:55<+glx>germany will just buy our nuclear electricity ;)
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: the "storage" right now is a metall hall with a fence around it, in the countryside.
09:56<Vikthor>glx: Well, that's not without drawback, here(Czech republic) goverment is expecting 30% rise in electricity cost due to german policy
09:56<fjb>glx: France buys a lot of german electricity because nuclear power plants produce always the same power, independent of the real demand.
09:56<@petern>windfarms everywhere!
09:56<@petern>lol
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>http://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/328.html
09:57<+glx>fjb: right, but germany won't produce the same amount without nuclear power plant
09:57<+glx>at least not immediately
09:57<__ln__>fjb: yes, but also burning coal produces both carbondioxide and small particles that people breathe and then die from.
09:58<fjb>Only 4 of our nuclear power plants are actually producing eletricity, and we still sell some to other countries.
09:58<fjb>__ln__: Coal is not your only choice.
09:59<@petern>true
09:59<@petern>there's oil and gas too
09:59<+glx>and wood
09:59<Vikthor>well we are one of the biggest exporters in EU with only 2 NPP.
09:59<Belugas>and sticks and stones
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>it was said since the "fukushima" incident and the subsequent shutting down of the oldest nuclear power stations in germany, we went from net-exporter to net-importer of power. but that is not actually because we can't produce enough power, but because power from other countries is cheaper
10:00<+glx>of course
10:00<Belugas>solar panels on every roofs
10:00-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1BC7E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
10:00<+glx>Belugas: yeah and EDF is forced to buy it :)
10:01<+glx>it = electricity
10:01<Vikthor>Belugas: You would still need backups for night and overcast weather
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>there are also loads of conspiracy theories floating around, like the major electricity companies actively blocking importing hydro-power from norway
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>problem with relying on solar and wind power is you need some way to store the energy
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>and the only sane way that is currently known to mankind is pumping water uphill
10:02<+glx>pumps to put water in high places ?
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>but that needs a hill.
10:02<fjb>Vikthor: You need some more storage power plants. But you also need some for nuclear power.
10:03-!-Alexandra_ [~lucas92@bas2-stlambert20-2925120089.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #openttd
10:03<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: Or a hole in the ground.
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>there are weird experiments currently going on, like pushing pressured air into natural caverns
10:04<Vikthor>fjb: Well, if you have mix of powerplants that can be stopped(hydro, gas etc) you don't need that much storage with nuclear PP
10:05<fjb>Vikthor: What are you doing with the unneeded nuclar electricity at night?
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>Vikthor: the current storage infrastructure is to supply the peak energy, while nuclear power stations provide the base energy
10:06<Vikthor>Yes, but you can stop the peak sources at the night, thus the need for storage is fairly small
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10:09<Eddi|zuHause>in germany, it's currently that "base" energy (24/7 steady lowest consumption) is provided about equal share by nuclear, "stone" coal and "brown" coal, the facilities that need >3h to get running once stopped. the peak energy (highest consumption by day/evening) are gas power and hydroelectric power, increasingly wind power.
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10:13<Vikthor>Well it is more or less the same for Czech republic, the difference is with hydro, gas, or even coal power plants you can plan ahead, whereas with solar and wind you can't be sure if you will have enrgy at disposal when you need it
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>that is why you need improved storage. to harness the energy when it is available, and not when you need it
10:17<Vikthor>Well the other way is to use backups, ie for every 1000 MW of solar and wind you install 1000 MW of gas PP, which will be idling most of the time
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10:25<__ln__>do i remember correctly that 'parameter' is not 'parametre' in britishish?
10:29<Alexandra_>how do you change your name on IRC?
10:29<Alexandra_>that's my sister name
10:29<Thorn_>/nick
10:30-!-Alexandra_ is now known as lucas92
10:30<lucas92>ok thanks
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10:33<__ln__>lucas92: does she play openttd?
10:33<lucas92>no
10:33<lucas92>XD
10:33<lucas92>she's a sims 3 addict though
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10:35<Belugas>[10:00] <+glx> Belugas: yeah and EDF is forced to buy it :) <-- we do someting like that here, actually. The unused generated power by solar panels/windmill and even private hydro stations are sold back to Hydro Quebec (our own EDF)
10:37-!-Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:38<lucas92>yes Hydro Quebec
10:38<lucas92>my dad works there
10:38<lucas92>in research
10:38<lucas92>I'm a quebecer btw
10:38<lucas92>Je parle français
10:40<Belugas>cool, moi aussi! mais comme on est pas beaucoup a le faire, on a pas le choix de parler anglais ;)
10:40<Belugas>Dommage :)
10:40<__ln__>zomg, the number of quebeqians has doubled on the channel then
10:40<Belugas>lol
10:40<Belugas>scary, isn't it ;)
10:41<__ln__>yes, reminds me of the Borg invasion in Star Trek 8, or something
10:42<__ln__>"population 9 billion, all québec"
10:43<lucas92>hahaha
10:43<lucas92>anyway, I guess you think that Steven Harper is a bad leaded?
10:43<lucas92>leader
10:44<__ln__>i don't happen to know (about) him
10:44<lucas92>ugh, basically, he is a pro-bush
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10:53<Belugas>Harper is a strange guy, living in an old age mentality
10:55<ccfreak2k>lucas92, wouldn't that actually make you quebequois?
10:56<lucas92>yes
10:56<lucas92>quebecer
10:56<lucas92>and Canadian
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11:01<Belugas>under a blue sky
11:01<Belugas>finally
11:02<Belugas>well.. at least in montreal
11:03<__ln__>Belugas/lucas92: what do you answer if someone asks "are you american?"
11:03<lucas92>no
11:03<lucas92>Canadians consider that americans are people in the US
11:03<lucas92>USA
11:03<__ln__>i've heard one potential answer is "Yes, I'm from Canada."
11:04<lucas92>well, american is correct since Canada is part of North America
11:04<Belugas>we are NOT americans for sure. That's the silliest statement i've heard
11:04<lucas92>but yeah
11:05<@peter1138>you are :)
11:05<@peter1138>in the pedantic sense, not in the usual sense
11:05<Belugas>mh.. true...
11:05*Belugas shivers from the though
11:05<Ammler>Belugas: as much as we are Europeans :-)
11:05<@Terkhen>:D
11:05<Belugas>quite :)
11:06<Belugas>but as lucas92 mentionned, in our minds (canadian minds), americans are us guys. we are very different from them
11:06<Belugas>even more us, quebecers
11:07<lucas92>well, I wouldn't say that we are much different
11:07<lucas92>I'd say that the East is very different from the West
11:08<lucas92>The more you go far from sea, the more people believe in god and stuff like that
11:09<Belugas>bigots are every where :S
11:09<lucas92>I can't believe Harper entered in majority
11:09<lucas92>wow
11:10<Belugas>was a sad day indeed
11:10<Belugas>i was happy about Bloc defeat though. always thouggh it was a real waste
11:10<Eddi|zuHause> <Ammler> Belugas: as much as we are Europeans :-) <-- ever asked a british guy whether he is european? :p
11:11<Belugas>hehehe
11:11<Belugas>continental europeans :) they are on an island!
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>i'd think that the average swiss person, even though not in the EU, feels more european than the average british person, even though they're in the EU
11:12<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: yes, I didn't mean just we swiss
11:14<Ammler>also for us it is a bit easier, since "Europe" isn't part of a country name
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11:15<Belugas>YUP
11:15<Vikthor>Eddi|zuHause: Well you don't have to be in the EU to feel European
11:16<Belugas>oopps... Caps lock
11:16<Ammler>Belugas: but don't you say, I go to "the States", not "America"
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>but "state-people" would sound silly :p
11:17<Belugas>personnaly, i say that I go to the US
11:17<Belugas>or NewYork, or Miami or else
11:17<Ammler>:-)
11:17<lucas92>my parents say going to the states
11:17<lucas92>oh wait
11:17<lucas92>not really XD
11:18<lucas92>in french
11:18<Belugas>i'm sure they rather say "on descend a Plattsburg" :)
11:19<lucas92>lol
11:19<lucas92>yeah
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11:21<Eddi|zuHause>what's plattsburg?
11:21<Belugas>it's a town not too far from the border, famous for its beaches
11:21<Belugas>and cheap stores :)
11:25<lucas92>yeah cheap stores
11:25<lucas92>mostly
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>so it's like going to luxemburg for cheap gas
11:26-!-ashledombos [~ashledomb@ris91-2-82-227-26-30.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd
11:28<Belugas>maybe. do you cross a border with a good long waiting line? hehehe
11:29<__ln__>when i entered Luxemburg (from Belgium) with my friends, we didn't notice the damn border. we only became suspicious because of the cheap gas price.
11:30<Belugas>it's like going from quebec to ontario :)
11:30<Belugas>no border and gas is cheaper
11:30<__ln__>the border was in the middle of a village or something
11:30<Belugas>ho.. and the roads are better in ontario...
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>the Schengen treaty makes it possible ;)
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>Schengen - one of the most famous small villages on the planet ;)
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>Schengen is in Luxemburg, near the border to France and Germany, at the river there was a lying ship where one of the elementary foundations of the european union was signed
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>the abolishment of visa requirements and border checks
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>only britain didn't join yet
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>but switzerland did
11:35<__ln__>and norway
11:35<@planetmaker>and Danmark kinda stated it wants to start ignoring it...
11:35<@planetmaker>:-(
11:36<@planetmaker>Indeed a very elementary part of the EU treaties
11:37-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f4584.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
11:37<__ln__>there wasn't much border control between switzerland and germany before schengen either.
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>i wouldn't know...
11:40<@planetmaker>__ln__: well, there *is* border control between Switzerland and Germany
11:40<@planetmaker>quite unlike to all other adjacent countries
11:41<__ln__>i've crossed that border without anyone asking me anything in 1998
11:41<@planetmaker>well, I didn't test with Poland, but all others is where I could go without stopping and producing a passport.
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11:43<@Terkhen>hmm... why is people still using cargo IDs for coding vehicles?
11:44<@Yexo>because they have no idea what they're doing
11:44<@Terkhen>and I was asked for my passport when entering germany years ago :P
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11:45<@peter1138>maybe they don't realise they should be using labels
11:46<@peter1138>mind you, iirc, george used different translation tables depending on what other grfs were loaded, kinda defeating the point...
11:47<George>I never did it
11:47<@peter1138>hmm
11:47<@peter1138>maybe it was someone else
11:47*frosch123 bets on canset
11:47*planetmaker wasn't asked for a passport for ages within Europe - except that time I travelled through Switzerland.
11:48<@planetmaker>Previous to that only upon leaving or returning on airports
11:48<@Terkhen>hmm... maybe he's asking because he's thinking about an addon for FIRS
11:48<@Terkhen>I wasn't asked for a passport when entering norway :P
11:49<@Terkhen>I felt cheated, I lost a morning in a long queue to update it
11:49<@Yexo>peter1138: wasn't it canset who did that?
11:50<@Alberth>Terkhen: you should ask your money back :p
11:51<@Terkhen>that too, burocracy isn't cheap :P
11:55*planetmaker thinks that frosch will win his bet
11:56<frosch123>did you check? :)
11:57<@planetmaker>no. But I faintly recall those statements in a related thread
11:57<frosch123>ok, so, 3 apes 1 idea, can't be wrong
11:57<@planetmaker>and wondering at the same time why several might be needed ;-). Yeah, that :-P
11:59-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
11:59<frosch123>hmm.,, when there are 5 topics in a row in a forum which got a new post by the same user... it is probably not worth to read any of them
11:59<@planetmaker>:-)
12:00<@planetmaker>which user? Brumi?
12:00<frosch123>something with x
12:00<frosch123>ah x and a galiian druid :)
12:01<@planetmaker>I don't see such new ones. But there was a lot of spam today.
12:01<frosch123>well, they are from yesterday, but i did not read forums since then :)
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>lot's of "i updated this patch"... nothing important
12:06<@planetmaker>most interesting I found the update to the yacd patch ;-)
12:07<frosch123>that would actually be quite a surprise :) i would bet on "i like this, how can i make it work in 1.1.0-rc2?"
12:07<@Terkhen>heh, that's how I started with the code :P
12:07<@planetmaker>hehe. Me, too
12:07<@planetmaker>I really wanted another wwottdgd. And it succeeded eventually ;-)
12:08<@planetmaker>And I learnt how to use VCS then
12:09<@planetmaker>how could I ever do without? ;-)
12:09-!-tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-50-241.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd
12:10<@Alberth>it is unbelievable how easy it is to do without what you don't know about :p
12:11<@planetmaker>yeah
12:13<frosch123>ah, now i arrived at the brumi topics :)
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12:16<@planetmaker>they're ok. Bug reports to AIs and similar
12:16<frosch123>might be, but i would still only read them if they would be my topic
12:17<lucas92>what is yacd?
12:18<@Alberth>yet another cargo dist/dest
12:18<@Alberth>it's in the development forum
12:18<lucas92>ok
12:18-!-manveru [~m_felling@KD114017221254.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #openttd
12:22<lucas92>I try to apply the patch with TurtoiseSVN and nothing happens
12:22-!-OpenTTDNood [~587a0018@webuser.thegrebs.com] has joined #openttd
12:22<OpenTTDNood>pouet
12:22-!-OpenTTDNood [~587a0018@webuser.thegrebs.com] has quit []
12:24<lucas92>oh it's a git patch
12:24<lucas92>XD
12:25<@Terkhen>yes, tortoisesvn is a bit stupid regarding patches
12:25<@Alberth>don't bother with tortoiseSVN, switch to tortoiseHG
12:26<lucas92>turtoiseHG
12:26<lucas92>ok
12:26<@Alberth>that way you can have your own changes in your own repositories
12:26<@planetmaker>indeed. When patching HG or git are much superior
12:26<lucas92>is TurtoiseHG a SVN browser too?
12:27<@Terkhen>no, tortoiseHG is for mercurial
12:27<lucas92>ok
12:27<@Alberth>no, it uses mercurial, and there is a mercurial mirror of openttd
12:28<@planetmaker>hg = chemical symbol for mercurial ;-)
12:28<lucas92>yeah
12:28<@planetmaker></smart ass> :-P
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12:28<lucas92>well, I'm restarting my computer
12:29<lucas92>see ya
12:29<lucas92>in 2 minutes
12:29<@planetmaker>:-)
12:29<@Alberth>the joys of windows :)
12:29<lucas92>yep
12:29<Ammler>must be a old windows
12:29<@Terkhen>tortoisehg requires a restart? why? :O
12:29<lucas92>no it's Windows 7
12:29<lucas92>dunno
12:29<Ammler>2 mins to reboot?
12:29<lucas92>maybe?
12:30*planetmaker never understood why installing a programme needs reboots
12:30-!-lucas92 [~lucas92@bas2-stlambert20-2925120089.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:30<@Terkhen>ah, right, tortoise* programs play with the context menus
12:30<@planetmaker>yes, so?
12:30<@Terkhen>and windows is not able to start using new context options without a restart
12:30<@Terkhen>no idea, windows is stupid
12:30<@Terkhen>specially regarding changes to stuff that shouldn't be a core part of the OS
12:31<Ammler>doesn't have x-restart :-)
12:31<@Terkhen>there is no equivalent of x in windows, it is part of the OS itself
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>that's the main reason i quit using windows. every silly small program needed a restart
12:32<@Terkhen>I still need windows to play new games as soon as they are released :P
12:33<@planetmaker>:-D
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12:34<lucas92>what's up
12:34-!-KouDy [~KouDy@ip-94-112-27-160.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd
12:34<@Terkhen>not much, talking about windows vs linux as usual
12:34-!-Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0497ba.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd
12:34<lucas92>lol
12:34<lucas92>both are good
12:34*Rubidium isn't really bothered by the reboots upon application installation, when I had to reliably boot it three times a day due to utter hanging :(
12:35<@Terkhen>lucas92: that's a great phrase for ending circular discussions :)
12:35<@Terkhen>I get hangs all the time with gnome 3 now :/
12:35<lucas92>yep, both are for different uses
12:35<lucas92>running servers on Linux is awesome
12:35<@Terkhen>maybe it's time to switch from gnome to something else
12:35<lucas92>while making school projects on Windows is awesome for compatibility
12:36*Terkhen does not like kde either
12:38<lucas92>so I need to create a new repository for mercurial
12:38<lucas92>?
12:38<@Terkhen>no, you need to clone the openttd repository
12:38<lucas92>ok
12:38<lucas92>ctr c ctr v?
12:39<@Terkhen>see http://hgbook.red-bean.com/read/a-tour-of-mercurial-the-basics.html
12:39<@Terkhen>hmm... no, that's for console mercurial
12:39<@Terkhen>I don't know how to use tortoisehg
12:39*Belugas goes outside shooting some pixels
12:39<@planetmaker>it has its own tutorial, for sure
12:39<lucas92>yeah ok I'll google it
12:39<@planetmaker>*poof*
12:39<@planetmaker>but let them live, Belugas ! ;-)
12:40*planetmaker goes outside "shooting" some food
12:40*fjb hides.
12:41*planetmaker wonders whether fjb thinks I'm a canibal :-P
12:41<lucas92>http://tortoisehg.bitbucket.org/manual/2.0/quick.html
12:42*fjb doesn't trust all that "shooting".
12:42<@Alberth>http://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_development#How_can_I_obtain_the_source_code.3F
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13:02<lucas92>ok it's HG Clone
13:02<lucas92>for getting the mercurial repository
13:05<lucas92>I guess I'll compile OpenTTD an another time XD
13:06<lucas92>anyone playing OpenTTD right now?
13:07<fjb>Yes.
13:08<lucas92>which server?
13:09-!-KouDy [~KouDy@ip-94-112-27-160.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:11<@Terkhen>localhost? :P
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13:12<lucas92>you?
13:12<anythingffs>guys, is there anyway to turn off the council rating?
13:12<lucas92>I've never tried local hosting
13:13<lucas92>advanced settings I think
13:13<lucas92>local authority
13:13<@Terkhen>anythingffs: no
13:14<lucas92>aww
13:14<lucas92>how would you modify that in the source code?
13:14<lucas92>which files?
13:15<lucas92>putting an option in the advanced settings window
13:15*anythingffs wants a dictatorship!
13:15<lucas92>under authority
13:15<lucas92>Economy/towns
13:15<@Terkhen>I would start by looking for a commit in the revision log that adds a setting, that way you know which files you need to modify and how to add a setting
13:16<lucas92>ok
13:16<@Terkhen>then there must be checks for town rating somewhere, turn them into conditional checks depending on your new setting
13:16<@Terkhen>wait, I think I remember one revision like that
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13:18<@Terkhen>meh, it won't help you, how settings are coded changed recently
13:18<@Terkhen>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/changeset/19346 <--- unless I'm mistaken the only thing that changes is is the trunk/src/table/settings.h part (ignore roadveh.h, that is the functionality of the setting itself)
13:20<@Terkhen>settings.h is now settings.ini and it uses a different format, but it should be something equivalent
13:20<lucas92>ok
13:21<lucas92>I assume that _variable variables are global?
13:21<@Alberth>there is already a setting for counsil attitude, it's just that the 'ignore filthy rich tycoon destroying our landscape' value is missing there :)
13:21<@Alberth>yes
13:22<@Alberth>http://wiki.openttd.org/Coding_style
13:23<@Terkhen>meh, can we ban using cargo IDs for vehicles? :P
13:24<lucas92>what is SDT_CONDVAR?
13:26<@Terkhen>look for it in the definitions, it should be documented IIRC
13:26<@Terkhen>openttd uses different savegame versions, new settings have to define in which versions they are present
13:26<lucas92>I think I understand
13:26<lucas92>the code how it works
13:27<@Terkhen>in the example I pasted, the new variable was introduced in savegame version 139 and it is available until version SL_MAX_VERSION
13:27<@Terkhen>you will need to bump the savegame version in your patch too
13:31<lucas92>what's the point of the multiple #ifdef WITH_FREETYPE in tables/settings.h
13:31<lucas92>?
13:31<lucas92>only one #ifdef is needed here
13:33<Belugas>boredome 1, pixels 0
13:35<@peter1138>Terkhen, deprecate it?
13:35<@peter1138>flash up huge warnings!
13:36<Belugas>muahahah!!! in order to answer, i need to svn up big time :)
13:37<@Terkhen>"this set will likely break in the future or not work at all with new industry sets unless it is updated frequently"
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13:39<@peter1138>by "using cargo IDs" i assume you mean it doesn't use a translation table?
13:41<@Terkhen>yes, it uses IDs directly
13:41<lucas92>would have an idea of how to remove local authority
13:41<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttd.org/Coding_style [19:23] Terkhen meh, can we ban using cargo IDs for vehicles? :P <-- well... not directly. But a grf defining vehicles without CTT might become invalid in nfo v8 ;-)
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13:42<@Terkhen>s/might/should/
13:42<@Terkhen>lucas92: you will need to dig into the code for that, I don't know how it is handled :)
13:42<@Alberth>lucas92: tables/settings.h is generated
13:42<@Terkhen>you should check if your setting appears correctly (even if it does nothing) first
13:43<lucas92>ok
13:45<lucas92>wasn't there a setting that set the town authority to permissive, severe?
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22530 /trunk/src/lang/ (polish.txt unfinished/frisian.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frisian - 6 changes by Fopper
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: polish - 5 changes by nouwak
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13:47<Wolf01>hello
13:47<@Alberth>evenink
13:49<@Terkhen>hi Alberth
13:49<@Terkhen>lucas92: yes
13:50<@Terkhen>you could also add a new option to that setting: ignore
13:50<@Alberth>game options
13:50<@Terkhen>oh, game options are more complicated :)
13:50<lucas92>yeah that's what I think
13:50<lucas92>oh
13:50<lucas92>is there any example of game option?
13:53<@Terkhen>I don't know if they are meant to be edited at all, I never modified one
13:53<@Terkhen>so I don't know if they work like advanced settings or not :P
13:54<lucas92>meh
13:54<lucas92>I'm trying too hard
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13:55<@planetmaker>not game options. Difficulty options
13:55<lucas92>I want to try something real easy to modify, let's say drawing a big ugly rectangle on the main screen
13:55<@planetmaker>But yes, they're not handled exactly the same way. But adding it there is the logical way.
13:55<lucas92>where do I put the code?
13:56<@planetmaker>that's not easy ;-)
13:56<lucas92>huh?
13:56<@planetmaker>more difficult than changing difficulty settings
13:56<lucas92>XD
13:56<lucas92>twt
13:56<lucas92>wtf
13:56<@planetmaker>Unless you draw a window
13:56<lucas92>ok a window then
13:56<@planetmaker>then look at a *_gui.cpp and look ;-)
13:56<lucas92>ok
13:57-!-andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd
13:57*andythenorth is puzzled
13:57<@planetmaker>thanks to alberth's gui re-write handling windows is very easy now. And nearly fail-proof
13:57<andythenorth>is it better to keep grf-crawler because it does stuff that bananas doesn't?
13:57<andythenorth>or is it better to improve bananas and shut grf-crawler?
13:57<@planetmaker>andythenorth: yes and no
13:57<andythenorth>one imvolves more work
13:58<andythenorth>the other is better for users in the long run
13:58<@Terkhen>IMO grfcrawler should be kept anyways, even if just as an archive
13:58<@planetmaker>I prefer the bananas solution.
13:58<andythenorth>see
13:58<@planetmaker>I just updated my checkout of extra/website/bananas ;-)
13:58<@Terkhen>but bananas should be able to do everything that grfcrawler does :)
13:58<andythenorth>two good answers from two sensible people :P
13:58<andythenorth>both different :P
13:59<lucas92>gui.cpp...
13:59<@planetmaker>I do also agree with the statement "should be kept"
13:59<@planetmaker>There's obviously no need to shut it down
13:59<@planetmaker>it's running as it seems on a tt-forums server anyway
13:59<@planetmaker>just he has to hand over responsibility / admin access to *someone*
13:59<@Alberth>lucas92: no, a file that ends with "_gui.cpp" that's what *_gui.cpp means
13:59<@planetmaker>preferrably orudge
14:00<lucas92>ok lol
14:00<@Terkhen>lucas92: if game options / difficulty options work like advanced settings you should only need to change the GUI if you are adding a new setting, if you modify an existing one it already has a space in the window
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14:03<@Terkhen>are you going to update bananas? :P
14:03<@planetmaker>I've the feeling that the 'best' approach usually is to have a goal with your source code modifications, lucas92 ;-)
14:03<@planetmaker>then it will somewhat come naturally
14:03<@orudge>planetmaker: well, my intention is to take control of it, whether Oskar may like that or not, we'll have to see :p
14:03<@orudge>assuming he decides he does want to shut it down, that is
14:03<@planetmaker>:-) good news
14:03<@Terkhen>:)
14:04<lucas92>yeah, let's say I want to draw a big-ass "like a boss" string on the rail building gui
14:04<@planetmaker>just change the string in the lang file(s)
14:04<@planetmaker>;-)
14:05<@planetmaker>and if you want it additonally add the string widget where appropriate
14:05<@planetmaker>start by playing around with one window. Try to change single, small things. See how it works
14:05<lucas92>yeah
14:06<@Terkhen>break random stuff, look how it breaks, understand random stuff, repeat
14:06<@planetmaker>change widget spacing. change widget sizes, change strings, change button order, change button placement. And see indeed how nicely it fails on the first tries ;-)
14:06<Belugas>and most important, get tons of coffee ready to be brewed
14:06<@planetmaker>don't take the newgrf gui window ;-)
14:07<@planetmaker>nor actually the station build window as a starter
14:07<lucas92>rail_gui is fine?
14:08<lucas92>the one that you choose signals and rails?
14:08<@Terkhen>that file has all rail related windows
14:08<lucas92>cool I'll look into it
14:08<@Alberth>town directory is one of the simplest windows
14:09<@Alberth>or subsidy gui perhaps
14:10<@planetmaker>well, but there are no buttons. So I think like a toolbar. Or maybe the terragen_gui.cpp are good places
14:10<@planetmaker>hm... though the new game window is layered also... so maybe not ;-)
14:11<@planetmaker>:-)
14:13<@planetmaker>trust alberth on it. He wrote that ;-)
14:16<@Alberth>everything is clickable, normally non-button clicks are just ignored :p
14:17<@Alberth>and the town directory does have buttons to select sorting :)
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14:18<@planetmaker>:-) right
14:23<Belugas>#Sometimes I dream about reality
14:23<Belugas># Sometimes I feel so gone
14:23<Belugas># Sometimes I dream about a wild wild world
14:24<Belugas># Hey Bobby Marley, sing something good for me
14:24<Belugas>#This world is crazy, it's an emergency!
14:27<@SmatZ>hello
14:27<@SmatZ>today's xkcd is funny :)
14:32<Belugas>despite my fear of sounding stupid ignorant, but wat is xkcd ?
14:32<@Alberth>www.xkcd.com
14:32<@Terkhen>a webcomic
14:32<@SmatZ>it's funny because it's true
14:33<@Terkhen>http://xkcd.com/87/ <--- this one is still one of my favourites :P
14:33<@SmatZ>have you ever chacked the citation link from wikipedia? :p
14:34<@SmatZ>:D
14:34*planetmaker is surprised that there are regulars in this channel who don't know xkcd ;-)
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14:37<lucas92>lol
14:37<andythenorth>this xcd is better: http://www.xkcd.com/905/
14:37<lucas92>very funny stuff
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14:37<@Alberth>http://xkcd.com/878/ I like this one
14:37<@peter1138>oh what, setting cargo type doesn't use the translation table...?
14:37<@Terkhen>if you don't know xkcd I recommend reading it completely and always check the mouse over texts
14:37<lucas92>lol
14:38<lucas92>http://www.xkcd.com/730/
14:38<lucas92>awesome
14:38<@Alberth>Belugas: http://xkcd.com/891/ :p
14:38<@planetmaker>905 is rather mediocre IMHO
14:39<@Alberth>http://xkcd.com/802/ online communities
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14:40<andythenorth>ho http://xkcd.com/519/
14:40<@Alberth>nice one :)
14:40<@planetmaker>hehe, yeah :-)
14:41<Belugas>lol
14:41<andythenorth>905 is funnier if you have bought a house
14:42<Belugas>thanks Alberth, now i know i'm very much old!
14:42<andythenorth>when you first get a house, it's a bit mind blowing that you can drill anywhere
14:42*Belugas loves to drill
14:42<Belugas>and trash walls
14:42<Belugas>and ...rebuild them up...
14:43<@planetmaker>quite ;-)
14:43<Belugas>my prefered tool, after the hammer: epoxy glue. fixes anything my son breaks (apart legs/arms/etc)
14:44<@planetmaker>:-D
14:46<@Terkhen>how do you know? did you try? :P
14:47<Belugas>hem... no?
14:47<@Alberth>one should use some wood and duct tape for those cases, of course
14:47<Belugas>concrete, rather
14:47<Belugas>sure it won't move
14:49<@Terkhen>:D
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14:50<Belugas>funny... when we laid down the concrete over the new plumbering system, my father, brother and I put our hands on th fresh concrete. My son wanted to do teh same, but when he saw our dirty hands, he changed his mind
14:51<Belugas>and called us prehistoric men ;)
14:51<Belugas>my wife was laughing big time
14:51<@Terkhen>:D
14:52<@planetmaker>looool !
14:52<@planetmaker>you darn old fossil, you ;-) welcome to reality ;-)
14:53<@planetmaker>children and fools tell the truth :-P
14:53<andythenorth>mine doesn't
14:53<@planetmaker>yet :-P
14:54<@Terkhen>that's a strange saying, the children I have met are usually skillful manipulators of the truth :)
14:54*planetmaker hugs Belugas
14:55<andythenorth>they can't handle the truth
14:55<andythenorth>you can't handle the truth :P
14:55<@planetmaker>Terkhen: not of the truth. much more of their parents
14:56<Belugas>wait til he really can talk, andythenorth :) lots of good times ahead!
14:56<Belugas>and hugs and kisses
14:56<Belugas>let's pass the "larva stage"
14:57<andythenorth>currently he shouts incoherently
14:57<andythenorth>in my ear
14:58<Belugas>:)
14:58<Belugas>Remember: he does not do that on purpose. he just feels bad
14:59<Belugas>send it back to mom, he will feel better
14:59<Belugas>muwhahahha!!
14:59<Wolf01><Belugas> let's pass the "larva stage" <- why did this reminds me "the fly"?
14:59<Belugas>because you're not a dad yet :)
14:59<lucas92>I'm still a student
15:00<lucas92>going to university next september
15:00<lucas92>electric engineer
15:01<lucas92>I think it's the perfect job: you do both programming and science
15:01<Wolf01>I'm not bothered to become a dad for the next 20 years
15:01<lucas92>why?
15:01<lucas92>I think life sucks without anyone
15:01<Wolf01>don't tell me
15:03<Belugas>Wolf01, i said the same before. took me a while, but now, i can't imagine life without him
15:03<Belugas>good luck, lucas92
15:03<Belugas>fnd simething you really like
15:03<Belugas>you'll might end up doing it fora long time
15:03<lucas92>yep
15:05<lucas92>well, I think there will be plenty of girls anyway at the polytechnique
15:06<lucas92>girls that love science are so much fun
15:06<lucas92>I've never had any "barbie" friends
15:07<lucas92>don't want to anyway. XD
15:08<Belugas>they are nice in front of a camera :)
15:08<lucas92>yeah, but they are so BOORRRINNG
15:09<Belugas>i agree.
15:10*planetmaker highly prefers character over model looks for anything long-term ;-)
15:11<Belugas>1/80 is long term alright
15:11<Belugas>ho...
15:12<Belugas>you mean...
15:12<Belugas>yeh...
15:12<Belugas>right
15:15<lucas92>or you will end up like these guys
15:15<lucas92>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDn2Xp5ctQM
15:16<Belugas>no youtube at work, sorry :(
15:16<lucas92>oh you're at work?
15:16<lucas92>ok
15:16*Belugas nods
15:18<@SmatZ>lucas92: what the...
15:19<lucas92>XD
15:19<@SmatZ>that video is not sane :p
15:19<lucas92>this one too
15:19<lucas92>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt1kWNImkxo&feature=relmfu
15:19<Belugas>never trust youtube at work :)
15:20<@Terkhen>I have seen worse :P
15:22*SmatZ once again WTFs
15:26<@Terkhen>that's the power of the internet :P
15:27<@SmatZ>:)
15:30<lucas92>right now I'm testing some changes with the town authority window
15:31<lucas92>for now it's working good
15:31<lucas92>now I'm trying to move the window to the right each time it draws
15:31<lucas92>testing
15:32<lucas92>also, I'll try to make a flashing string
15:32<lucas92>with a static counter and color array
15:32<lucas92>should be easy
15:33<lucas92>btw, I don't understand why you use the keyword struct instead of class
15:33<lucas92>struct feels more C
15:33<lucas92>while class feels more C++
15:34<lucas92>and I prefer when it says public: instead of assuming it's public
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>but this is not about what you prefer
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>the code style is a general agreement between all coders, everybody will have to make some compromise to keep things consistent
15:36<@Terkhen>lucas92: the code was originally in C, and the code is only changed if it is needed
15:36<@Terkhen>so I guess it was kept as struct to minimize changes
15:36<@Terkhen>it does not matter much anyways
15:37<lucas92>ok
15:39<lucas92>ok I have to call it OnTick()
15:39<lucas92>so it changes each tick
15:39<lucas92>hmm
15:40<@Alberth>biggest difference is that class defaults to private, while struct defaults to public
15:40<lucas92>yes
15:41<lucas92>I don't know if you can make templates with the keyword struct
15:41<lucas92>template<struct T> ?
15:41<@Alberth>typename T or so, I think
15:41<lucas92>yeah
15:42<@Alberth>but there are not many templates in the code, which is good
15:42<@planetmaker>:-) yep
15:42<lucas92>they can simplify the code
15:42<@Alberth>on the other hand, those that does exist are way too complicated
15:43<@Alberth>if used well, they can, but that is unfortunately not always the case
15:43<lucas92>yep
15:43<@Terkhen>simplify the code? check ground_vehicle.* and vehicle*
15:43<@Alberth>it is too easy to over-generalize
15:44<@Alberth>or yapf, or misc/*.hpp :)
15:44<@Terkhen>oh, yapf is even worse IIRC
15:46<@planetmaker>hehe... over-generalize
15:46*planetmaker is good at that, probably
15:47<@Terkhen>at yapf code? :)
15:47<@planetmaker>nope. At trying to over-generalize things.
15:47<@Terkhen>:D
15:47<@planetmaker>the newgrf makefiles might be an example in that direction. At least I sometimes fear that
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15:53<lucas92>testing the flashing strings
15:54<lucas92>very funny to break OpenTTD
15:54<lucas92>XD
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>yapf internals are simply crazy...
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>a mad man coded them...
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>nobody dares to touch them since
15:55<lucas92>haven't look at it
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>so much for code simplification :p
15:55<lucas92>is it for path finding^
15:55<lucas92>?
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
15:56<lucas92>ouch
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>it's a "simple" A* algorithm
15:56<lucas92>"simple"
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>it abuses templates for compile-time virtualisation
15:56*Alberth fears that he wants to use that code in the near future
15:56<lucas92>because it would take too much time?
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>instead of run-time virtualisation that NPF used, which made it very slow
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: well "using" yapf is simple, just implement a follow_track routine and you're done
15:58<@Alberth>not really in my case, I want to hook a quad tree data structure into it
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>for what?
15:58<@Alberth>faster ship path finding
15:58<@planetmaker>ho ho :-)
15:58<@Alberth>ie use a quad tree to store seas of open space
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>like a pathfinder cache for ships?
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>that shouldn't touch yapf internals either
16:00<@Alberth>not only a cache, you store path lengths like in A* only at the edges of the elementary quad trees, thus no computation of all internal paths in a single quad
16:00<lucas92>meh my try doesn't work... :(
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: but still shouldn't be more difficult than the rail cache
16:01<lucas92>townviewwindow is the one that open up when clicking a town right^
16:01<@Alberth>perhaps you are right
16:01<@Alberth>right?
16:01<@Alberth>normally click at the town name
16:02<lucas92>yeah doesn't seem to work
16:02<lucas92>hmm
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>might be a nice idea to do ctrl+click in the town list open the town window?
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>or reverse that: click open the town window, ctrl+click jump to town?
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>(change from current behaviour)
16:03<@Terkhen>faster ship pathfinding would be awesome :)
16:03<@Alberth>I consider jumping to the town more useful imho
16:04<@Alberth>ie with a click
16:04<@Alberth>ctl+click for the town window should be fine though
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>even if you don't know ctrl, you can still jump to the town from the open town window
16:05-!-andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
16:07<lucas92>ok I think I found my mistake
16:08<lucas92>I need to update the flash counter in the OnTick() function
16:08<@planetmaker>use palette animation. Then you don't need to update
16:08<@planetmaker>one of the few animation colours
16:09<lucas92>I'll try that after
16:09<lucas92>I'm sure I can make this work anyway
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>there's no 50:50 black/yellow animation, which looks odd in GermanRV busses (they have flash lights on while loading)
16:09<lucas92>but there are animation colours?
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>only 75:25 black/yellow, or 50:50 black/red (used by the trams)
16:10<lucas92>ok
16:10<lucas92>I've put yellow, red, blue, purple and green
16:10<lucas92>XD
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>lucas92: there used to be a .png showing the animated colours
16:11<lucas92>ok
16:11<lucas92>I'm not sure if changing color each tick is too fast
16:11<lucas92>XD
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>lucas92: look at the airport or the lighthouse to see what happens for "every tick" colour change
16:12<lucas92>ok I thought it was an image
16:12<lucas92>animated
16:14<lucas92>alright testing
16:14<Belugas>mmh.. another sign you're old: still loving Dio songs
16:15<Belugas>"who??"
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>the water animation is also colours
16:15<Belugas>"never mnd, he's dead"
16:15<@Alberth>lucas92: likely it is too fast, 100 times/sec is faster than your monitor
16:16<lucas92>yeah I don't see the text flashing at all
16:16<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: lucas92 I suggest to have a look at http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/ttdviewer/nightlies/LATEST/
16:16<@planetmaker>it's quite awesome to show the possible colour translations and also animation colours
16:16<@planetmaker>as java programme it should work whereever
16:16<@Alberth>do you mark the area dirty after changing the colour?
16:17-!-pugi [~pugi@p4FCC2354.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
16:18<lucas92>oh
16:22-!-bdavenport [~bdavenpor@mail.companioncabinet.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:22<lucas92>http://pastebin.com/tmh0nLd9
16:22<lucas92>I initialize my color array this way
16:23<lucas92>and accessing the colour[i] index
16:24<lucas92>I'll test this out
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>use {} to initialize arrays
16:24<lucas92>for coding style?
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>array literals
16:24<lucas92>how you do it?
16:24<lucas92>don't remember
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>TextColour colour[5] { 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, }
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>err
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>missing =
16:25<lucas92>ok
16:25<@Alberth>and add a 'const' :)
16:26<@Alberth>and a 'static', and move the definition into the method
16:26<lucas92>const TextColour *colour?
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16:26<lucas92>ok
16:26<@Alberth>static const TextColour colours[] = { ... };
16:27<@planetmaker>static const TextColour colour = { ... };
16:27<lucas92>yeah
16:27<lucas92>ok thanks for the tips
16:27<lucas92>it's building right now...
16:28<Thorn_>so's the foreman
16:30<lucas92>not doing anything still
16:33<lucas92>I'll try to update my counter each 100 ticks
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16:36<lucas92>1 tick is 1/60 of seconds?
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>no, 1/33
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>so 100 ticks is 3 seconds
16:38<lucas92>ah
16:39<lucas92>then I have no idea why it doesn't flash
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16:40<lucas92>great Visual C++ crashed
16:42<lucas92>I'll try on the town authority window
16:42<lucas92>I've succeeded changing the colour of the cost of an action so it should work
16:50<lucas92>nice it works
16:50<lucas92>XD
16:51<@Terkhen>:)
16:54<lucas92>cool
16:54<lucas92>now I'm going to try moving the widget in a circle motion
16:54<lucas92>hehehe
16:55<lucas92>btw, debug version compile lot faster lol
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>well, it skips the optimisation part
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>obviously that makes it faster
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>but it then runs way slower
17:00<lucas92>is PI defined somewhere?
17:01<@Terkhen>why do you need PI? and probably not
17:01<lucas92>I want to rotate a widget around the mouse cursor
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>so what do you need pi for?
17:02<@Yexo>lucas92: try M_PI
17:02<lucas92>got to eat
17:02<lucas92>see ya
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17:13<@Terkhen>good night
17:13<Vikthor>night Terkhen
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17:18<Wolf01>'night
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17:41<lucas92>how do you get the mouse position?
17:41<@Yexo>from where in the code?
17:42<lucas92>from town_gui.cpp
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17:43<@Yexo>and from where in town_gui.cpp? Window::OnClick gets the position relative to the widget as argument
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17:43<lucas92>from OnTick()
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>i think you might want a Window::OnMouseMove
17:44<lucas92>ok
17:44<lucas92>I see how ok
17:45<lucas92>how do you get the x and y from there?
17:46<lucas92>ok nvm
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17:47<lucas92>there's no OnMouseMove...
17:49<lucas92>there's OnHover()
17:50<lucas92>but it just execute when it's over the window
17:50<lucas92>there's on MouseLoop() but no way to get the x and y
17:53<@Yexo>why do you need the x/y position of the mouse anyway?
17:53<lucas92>to move around the cursor a widget
17:53<lucas92>in a circular pattern
17:53<lucas92>some tests
17:54<@Yexo>will that widget always stay within a particular window?
17:54<lucas92>no
17:54<lucas92>it is the local authority widget
17:54<@Yexo>so why are you trying to fit the code in a Window class?
17:55<@Yexo>what widget?
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>lucas92: and if you just replace the mouse cursor? or a tooltip?
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>check the measurement tooltip
17:55<lucas92>measurement tooltip
17:56<lucas92>how can I replace the mouse cursor?
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>there are plenty of mouse cursor replacements in the code
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. while a build tool is active
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>or autosave
18:03<lucas92>it is in the GUI?
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>dunno... you have the code open ;)
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18:05<lucas92>but I can't find it
18:05<lucas92>how do you find stuff in this code
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18:05<Eddi|zuHause>autoreplace is triggered in date.cpp
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>from there you get the right search terms
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>out of the top of my head there's a _do_autosave variable
18:06<lucas92>ok found it for the tool tip
18:06<lucas92>it's in the NWidget things
18:09<lucas92>you just need to change the sprite in the NWidget declaration
18:09<lucas92>that's all
18:10<lucas92>oops doesn't work
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18:17<fjb>The combination of YADP and FIRS is astonishingly challenging.
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18:22<Eddi|zuHause>need passenger reduction patch, they are too many and pay too much
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18:26<lucas92>a tooltip is the yellow window right?
18:26<lucas92>I think I've got this working
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18:27<Eddi|zuHause>yes
18:27<lucas92>cool
18:27<lucas92>too easy XD
18:28<lucas92>how do you change the image next to the mouse when you're building something?
18:28<lucas92>for example, rails
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>which image?
18:29<lucas92>you see a rail piece next to the mouse
18:29<lucas92>when building rails
18:29<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: May be I should start with passengers.
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>ah, the highlight
18:29<lucas92>yeah
18:29<lucas92>highlight?
18:29<lucas92>ok
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>lucas92: if you're at it: implement the trackbit-higlighting for autoroads similar to autorails ;)
18:30<lucas92>autoroads?
18:30<lucas92>what do you mean?
18:30<lucas92>oh
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>autorail is the 5th button in the rail toolbar
18:30<lucas92>yeah
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>autoroads the 3rd in the road toolbar
18:31<lucas92>it isn't?
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>autorail highlights exactly the trackbit that will be built, autoroads doesn't
18:31<lucas92>yeah
18:31<lucas92>do the sprites exist?
18:32<lucas92>yes they do for sure
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think so
18:32<lucas92>no
18:32<lucas92>taww
18:32<lucas92>aww
18:32<lucas92>then how am I supposed to do?
18:32<lucas92>don't know how to add sprites
18:32<lucas92>:(
18:39<lucas92>what is a catenary?
18:40<@Yexo>the electricity lines above rail track
18:40<lucas92>ok
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>lucas92: just pick other sprites temporarily, adding sprites later is easy
18:44<lucas92>yeah, but I have a hard time to find where the sprite is added
18:45<lucas92>with the highlight
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>in src/table/sprites.h
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>you need 6 sprites, 4 for each half road, and 2 for each full road
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>order would be best if it was the same as in src/road_type.h
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18:53<lucas92>I'm not sure to understand...
18:54<lucas92>ok, I'll try something
18:55<lucas92>yeah I don't understand sprite.h
18:56<lucas92>there are sprites for highlighting tracks on slopes
18:56<lucas92>one for the rail
18:56<lucas92>mono
18:56<lucas92>elerail
18:56<lucas92>maglev
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>no, those are the reservation highlights
18:57<lucas92>but I don't see any for a flat land
18:57<lucas92>huh?
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>not the build highlights
18:57<lucas92>which ones?
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>decode trg1r.grf or look at the opengfx repo to find out which number corresponds to which sprite
18:58<lucas92>ok
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>but the sprites you seek are probably in openttd.grf
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>so they would be in media/extra_grf/
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>one of the png files there
19:01<lucas92>yeah, there is an autorail png
19:01<lucas92>this could be a replacement for the road highlighting
19:01<lucas92>for now
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>well, road bits work slightly different than rail bits
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>oh, and if you need proper sprites, i believe i have seen some in the forum already
19:04<lucas92>SPR_IMG_AUTOROAD?
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>but the functionality is important, the sprites can be done later
19:04<lucas92>that's the one to replace?
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>no, that's the button in the GUI
19:05<lucas92>aww
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19:05<lucas92>I don't see those highlight sprites
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19:11<lucas92>does it have anything to do with the TileHighlightingData?
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19:13<Eddi|zuHause>possibly, not entirely sure
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19:14<lucas92>SPR_AUTORAIL_BASE?
19:15<lucas92>DrawSelectionSprite?
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19:19<lucas92>anyway got to go
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19:20<Eddi|zuHause>... that sounds like the right place
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19:36<V453000>hi, does anyone remember how large (if any) is the maximum area in which a lumber mill can cut trees?
19:41<@Yexo>a 40x40 area, so I think north tile of industry -20,-20 to north tile of industry +20,+20
19:41<V453000>awesome, thanks
19:42<V453000>*lumber mill heaven*
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19:48<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: that is an 41x41 area
19:52<V453000>+-1 tile doesnt matter much :)
19:54<V453000>rather interesting is that I have a lumber mill and it doesnt want to chop more than 8 tiles away from sides of the industry (not the placement tile)
19:54<V453000>maybe I am just impatient :)
19:55<Eddi|zuHause>it goes in circles around the industry and takes the first tree tile it can find. so if a new tree appears in the already chopped area, it will take that one
19:55<V453000>yeah, but I would expect it to eat all of them in time :)
19:56<Eddi|zuHause>(i could be talking rubbish though, and i have never played with the tropical saw mill)
19:56<V453000>me neither :)
19:57<Eddi|zuHause>in rainforest, over 200 times more trees get planted than in temperate/arctic
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19:58<Mazur>You couold find out by clearing the area round the mill and them building a ring of trees on the outer edge, alternating between the 40² and 41² areas.
19:59<V453000>fair point :)
19:59<Mazur>If trees still get chopped, you can fill in the rest.
19:59<V453000>but I rather need to know what is the largest possible area the mill can really cut down
19:59*Mazur has its moments.
20:00<V453000>no, your point is fine in order to get the maximum area
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21:23<lucas92>hi
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---Logclosed Thu Jun 02 00:00:27 2011