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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-06-02

---Logopened Thu Jun 02 00:00:27 2011
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01:51<@Terkhen>good morning
01:54<@planetmaker>moin Terkhen
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04:10<@planetmaker>hm... Japanese set needs an update. It doesn't support parameter GUI at all :-(
04:10<@planetmaker>And I'd like the option to have Shinkansens run on tracks compatible with the normal trains, too
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04:12<@Terkhen>what license does it use?
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04:17<@peter1138>rail types!
04:17<@peter1138>or does it still replace the maglev graphics or something shitty
04:19<@Terkhen>probably it does
04:21<@Terkhen>I want something that adds a "metro" track type, but when I enable that option in the Metro Track Set no new rail types appear
04:21<@Terkhen>does it only appear if the new rail type has trains?
04:21<@peter1138>well you need trains that use the metro track too
04:21<@peter1138>besides, the metro track set is bloody ugly
04:22<@Terkhen>then I guess that 2cc does not use that rail type
04:22<@Terkhen>I just need something that looks different from monorail without breaking it :P
04:22<@Terkhen>looking nice would be a good plus
04:23<@peter1138>uk railway track set is nice looking
04:23<@peter1138>dunno if it uses the same labels
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04:25<@planetmaker>Terkhen: it's all gpl v2 afaik
04:26<@planetmaker>peter1138: yes, it still doesn't handle railtypes
04:27<@planetmaker>Terkhen: I thought about using Japanese stuff for the next yacd... but this train and track configuration doesn't give me any joy :-(
04:27<@Terkhen>I would propose the spain set if it didn't have even worse problems :P
04:28<@planetmaker>well, I don't mind a missing a14 support. That'd be nice, though. Honestly, I have to admit, I did not play with the spanish train set for... ages.
04:29<@Terkhen>that 2cc subways grf has all the metros I like... but it seems to lack any support for railtypes too (with nutracks and 2cc subways there are no rail types or trains available)
04:29<@planetmaker> <-- I had this with alpine climate
04:30<@Terkhen>no, the spain set has some serious bugs: whitespace on some trains, using real cargos for refit magic and so on
04:30<@planetmaker>I'm reluctant to add the 2ccTS. That's too many trains...
04:30<@Terkhen>yes, me too
04:30<@planetmaker>Though... we could And then NuTracks. But that's again too many track types
04:30<@Terkhen>we could use 2cc subways but they will run on monorail
04:30<@planetmaker>use the metrotracks newgrf properly configured? Doesn't that work?
04:31<@planetmaker>via parameter to replace monorail?
04:31<@Terkhen>that works, but then monorail trains run on metro tracks :P
04:31<@Terkhen>we are probably not going to use monorail anyways
04:32<@planetmaker>well. Then we have no monorail. But so what. Do we use those?
04:32<@Terkhen>ok, we can use that then :)
04:33<@planetmaker>I hardly use monorail, I have to admit.
04:33<@planetmaker>And if, it'd make sense to me only in very limited cases
04:33<@Terkhen>planetmaker: I would add 2cc subways and metro track set then (even if ugly at least they mark that we are using metro trains)
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04:34<@peter1138>i thought metro tracks used railtypes now?
04:34<@peter1138>at least, i did most of the work converting it myself...
04:34<@peter1138>it was my test grf
04:34<@Terkhen>the 2cc subways does not seem to be compatible with rail types
04:35<@Terkhen>and 2cc has too many trains
04:35<@Terkhen>urgh, when are they going to implement those parameters
04:35<@planetmaker>yes :S
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04:35<@planetmaker>unfortunately I lost most of my interest on working on the 2ccTS when DJN once removed everything from the repo in a fit
04:35<@Terkhen>planetmaker: I also have generic tram set, but metros can fulfill the local transport of passengers better so it is probably not needed
04:36<@Terkhen>what??? :O
04:36<@planetmaker>long ago meanwhile. but yes
04:37<@planetmaker>we rolled back that commit on the server and he continued. But my motivation to help was blown away
04:38<@Terkhen>I can understand why, yes
04:38<@planetmaker>the reason was something not working as it *should* due to both nfo error and makefile giving a not helpful error message about it
04:39<@peter1138>i even modified 2cc train set to use the rail type test grf...
04:39<@peter1138>it's a one-liner...
04:39<@peter1138>(granted i didn't care about ttdpatch compatibility)
04:39<@Terkhen>peter1138: the 2cc subways grf only contains the metro trains, someone coded that
04:39<@planetmaker>2ccTS isn't TTDP compatible anyway
04:39<@Terkhen>it was probably done before you did those changes to the 2cc train set
04:39<@peter1138>there wasn't a subways grf when i did it
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04:40<@Terkhen>oh, then the person that created it did a messy code or I'm not testing it properly
04:40<@peter1138>we're talking 2 years ago...
04:40<@planetmaker>Terkhen: so... which trainset? the subway grf and...?
04:40<@peter1138>railtypes goes back a long time ;P
04:40<@planetmaker>:-) they do
04:41<@Terkhen>metro track set with parameter "add third rail"
04:41<@planetmaker>oh, that's needed? Not replace monorail?
04:41<@Terkhen>but I want a new track type, not replacing monorail :P
04:41<@planetmaker>:-D ok
04:42<@planetmaker>but... then the 2ccSubways don't work
04:42<@peter1138>how come?
04:42<@Terkhen>hmm... with "Add third rail" it seems to do nothing, no matter what train set I select
04:43<@Terkhen>s/it/the metro track set/
04:43<@planetmaker>because no trainset defined 3rdr as its primary track type
04:43<@planetmaker>also... there are no monorail vehicles
04:44<@planetmaker>so all should be fine
04:48<@Terkhen>I was also testing the universal rail type, but the method for replacing trains with it is too complicated to bother
04:48<@planetmaker> <-- my current selection
04:48<@Terkhen>what is smits?
04:48<@planetmaker>lots of parameters set for all kinds of newgrfs ;-) Shanghai Maglev tracks
04:48<@planetmaker>it needs those parameters. It really does ;-)
04:48<@planetmaker>Default is too ugly :-P
04:48<@Terkhen>it looks nice :) (with those parameters, I did not test without)
04:48<@Terkhen>the icons are a bit confusing, though
04:50<@Terkhen>I like that newgrf selection; I have never played with the japanese grfs
04:50<@peter1138>2cc trainset should be compatible with uk railway track set, at least 3rd rail
04:51<@peter1138>but i think it's geared up for nutracks
04:51<@peter1138>as it uses E160 E230, etc...
04:52<@planetmaker>trains might not use that
04:52<@Terkhen>2cc subways with NuTracks set to "default and metro track": no trains available at all
04:53<@Terkhen>2cc with NuTracks set to "default and metro track": there are no metro trains in the list of available trains, and the list itself is suspiciously short
04:53<@Terkhen>(2cc 2.0.0-beta-4.1)
04:55<@peter1138>2cc expects all nutracks' tracks to be available
04:55<@peter1138>it doesn't test
04:55<@peter1138>if a railtype isn't available, the engines for that type disappear
04:56<@Terkhen>if I use nutracks with default parameters the metro trains are not present either
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04:57<@Terkhen>opengfx+ rail types? :P
05:00<@planetmaker>Terkhen: yes. I even have the sprites already...
05:00<@Terkhen>oh, nice :)
05:00<@peter1138>nutracks with 3rd rails
05:00<@planetmaker>was a by-product of opengfx+ landscape ;-)
05:01<@planetmaker>just the xcf needs proper exporting and then coding
05:01<@peter1138>is what you need
05:01<@planetmaker>it has that option, does it?
05:02<@Terkhen>peter1138: thanks! that works :)
05:02<@Terkhen>but it also includes all of those crazy speed limited rail types :/
05:02<@peter1138>that's nutracks for you
05:02<@peter1138>and 2cc trains requires is
05:03<@Terkhen>planetmaker: and does it have sprites for metro? :P
05:04<@peter1138>pikka's track looks better anyway
05:05<@peter1138>2cc trains should probably test what rail type labels are available
05:05<@peter1138>and either warn or work around missing ones
05:06<@peter1138>oh. hmm.
05:06<@peter1138>i need to read the code a bit more
05:06<@peter1138>cos without nutracks you get the metro trains on 3rd rail. pom te pom
05:07<@planetmaker>Terkhen: of course not. Only rail, monorail, maglev. And no snowy tracks either
05:07*peter1138 gives up caring and goes to do some work :p
05:07<@planetmaker>road types? :-P
05:08<@Terkhen>I'm going to give up too, yellow track thing for us then
05:08<@planetmaker>hm, right. I'm going to have to tend to a few other things now, mainly a dirty flat. Feel free to select NewGRFs or prepare a map, if you like ;-)
05:09<@planetmaker>I won't complain then
05:09<@Terkhen>I should be working too :P
05:09<@Terkhen>I like your selection, we can play with it this weekend
05:10<@peter1138>hmm, nutracks high speed track still has a speed limit. odd.
05:10<@planetmaker>well, as said: it sucks wrt shinkansen tracks
05:10<@planetmaker>I'd like shinkansens to run - at least compatibly - on normal tracks
05:11<@peter1138>normal tracks don't have a speed limit though
05:11<@peter1138>did i add that "what rail type are we running on" variable for callbacks?
05:12<@Terkhen>I remember some talks about it but I don't know how they ended
05:12<@peter1138>ah, seems to be part of var 4A
05:15<@peter1138>ah, japanese train set just replaces monorail. right.
05:15<@Terkhen>planetmaker: I have a version 2.1 of the japanese train set
05:15<@peter1138>damn, i was going to do some work :p
05:15<V453000>can be set to maglev, too
05:15<V453000>(where it is far better)
05:15<V453000>also morning :p
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05:16<@Terkhen>hi V453000
05:16<@peter1138>"better" as in breaks different laws of physics, yeah
05:16<V453000>no, the monorail shinkansens are unusable
05:16<V453000>zero capacity
05:16<V453000>who cares about laws of physics, it is unplayable
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05:16<V453000>*zero acceleration
05:17<V453000>capacitz is unchanged ofc >]
05:17<V453000>and I should switch keyboards :)
05:18<@peter1138>hmm, the specs are pretty low
05:18<V453000>the trains have been moved to monorail but the stats were unchanged, which of course makes them unusable
05:18<V453000>on maglev they were fine ofc
05:18<manveru>i've got a problem with the music, i installed "OpenMSX" and "Scott Joplin Anthology", and select either as base music set, the songs show up in-game, but when i hit play it just cycles through them realy fast without actually playing anything
05:19<manveru>version 1.1.0 on archlinux
05:19<@planetmaker>Terkhen: I do, too. Even 2.1
05:19<@Terkhen>manveru: that happened to me on archlinux when I did have sound set up properly
05:19<@planetmaker>But track configuration options differ ;-)
05:19<@peter1138>anyway, they certainly have more than 0 acceleration
05:19<@peter1138>because if they had 0, they wouldn't move
05:19<@peter1138>they reach top speed too
05:19<@Terkhen>sorry, I did not*
05:19<Ammler>manveru: did you install timidity?
05:19<@peter1138>after about 20 tiles
05:19<manveru>Ammler: no
05:19<manveru>lemme try :)
05:20<Ammler>I am sure, the readme would tell about :-)
05:20<@peter1138>so "accelerates slower than you'd like" is "unplayable"
05:20<@peter1138>and "unusable"
05:21<@Terkhen>hmm... I never use music on openttd anyways, but if openttd on archlinux requires timidity to play it, then it is a bug of the package requirements IMO
05:21<Ammler>Terkhen: how else?
05:21<V453000>peter1138: it is just way too slow
05:21<@peter1138>Terkhen, exactly, music *isn't* required
05:21<@peter1138>they get to top speed. how is that slow?
05:21<V453000>but in how long
05:21<__ln__>Terkhen: what?! no music? terrible.
05:21<@Terkhen>then it should be an optional dependency
05:22<V453000>and when you cannot improve their acceleration with multiple engines, it just cannot be solved
05:22<Ammler>Terkhen: it should be a dependency of openmsx
05:22<Ammler>it is that way on suse
05:22<@Terkhen>why? I can play music without openmsx
05:22<@Terkhen>I could be using the original songs or other music set
05:22<@peter1138>Ammler, you want package dependencies based on stuff downloaded via bananas?
05:22<Ammler>peter1138: openmsx is a distro package
05:23<@peter1138>can be
05:23<manveru>openmsx is in AUR
05:23<Ammler>yep :-)
05:23<@planetmaker>it is. It's a recommended install
05:23<@peter1138>but it also can be installed via bananas
05:23<Sacro>Whoo arch
05:23<@peter1138>in which case package dependencies on that don't solve anyway
05:23<manveru>so yeah, i guess the PKGBUILD should mention it as dependency
05:23<@peter1138>anyway, arch sucks
05:24<Ammler>I guess, the readme is clear
05:24<@Terkhen>manveru: does music work with timidity?
05:24<Sacro>peter1138: lies
05:24<Sacro>Terkhen: it used to
05:24<@peter1138>do they still prefer oss?
05:24<Sacro>still does afaik
05:24<Ammler>if you like to use music, install timidity
05:24<Sacro>peter1138: arch doesn't 'prefer' anything
05:24<@peter1138>Sacro, yes yes
05:25<@peter1138>Sacro, most of the people i've seen trying to use OSS have come from that one page on some archlinux wiki that "explains" how oss is better
05:25<@peter1138>they're always archlinux users
05:25<manveru>Terkhen: it stopped cycling, can't hear a thing yet, timidity shows up in the mixer as playback stream though
05:25<@peter1138>everybody else accepts that oss sucks
05:25<Sacro>I only used OSS before ALSA supported the XFi
05:25<Sacro>Now I use ALSA + pulseaudio
05:26<Sacro>and I never had issues with OpenTTD and OSS
05:26<manveru>peter1138: i can't stand OSS, fwiw
05:26<@Terkhen>although I like arch I agree with peter1138 on this one, I was "tricked" to use OSS by the wiki, after ALSA did not detect my sound card
05:26<manveru>but i use pulseaudio, which equally many people hate :)
05:26<@Terkhen>after the gnome3 update (that requires pulse audio) all of my sound configuration is completely messed up
05:26<Ammler>(or not :-)
05:27<V453000>A 6t ile long N700 shinkansen accelerates to top speed in 47 tiles and cannot be improved by multiple engines added... Sorry but that is unusable
05:27<@peter1138>that page
05:27<@peter1138>should have a big huge warning on it
05:27<@peter1138>to say that oss is not recommended, because it's shit
05:27<@peter1138>i'd edit it but it needs a login ;p
05:27<@peter1138>and it'd only get reverted, hehe
05:28<manveru>i think you'd have to work on the wording :)
05:28<@Terkhen>I am planning on just reinstalling arch and use alsa this time, no matter how long it takes to make it find my sound card
05:28<manveru>why do you need a reinstall for that?
05:28<Ammler>Terkhen: of you could use a proper distro for common usage and put arch on vm
05:29<@Terkhen>because I'm lazy and I already have all the steps I did to install it in a txt file and I only have to follow them
05:29<@Terkhen>Ammler: why isn't arch a proper distro?
05:29<Ammler>seems not :-)
05:29<Ammler>it can't play music
05:30<manveru>seems like timidity needs instruments
05:30<@peter1138>yeah it does
05:30<@peter1138>that *should* be a dependency of timidity though
05:30<@peter1138>(there's only 1 set available)
05:30<manveru>i dunno
05:31<Ammler>manveru: pats!
05:31<manveru>midi on linux, giving you headaches since 1995
05:31<manveru>music works now
05:31<@Terkhen>I dislike conclusions based on a few facts, so I'm just going back to work
05:31<manveru>thanks folks :)
05:31<@Terkhen>manveru: great, what did you need to install?
05:32<Sacro>you don't have freepats?
05:32<@Terkhen>then both timidity and timidity-freepats should be optional dependencies of openttd :)
05:32<manveru>i'll file a bug for that
05:33<@Terkhen>ok :)
05:33<Ammler>and requires of openmsx
05:33<Sacro>it can't require openmsx
05:33<Sacro>openmsx is in AUR
05:34<Sacro>you'll need it in community
05:34<Ammler>aur means?
05:34<Sacro>User Repo
05:34<Sacro>essentially just build scripts
05:34<Ammler>and then it can't require timidty?
05:34<Sacro>kinda like a repo of SPEC files or whatever
05:34<Sacro>but it doesn't requare that to build
05:35<Ammler>oh, openttd should not require openmsx
05:35<Sacro>iirc I wrote the PKGBUILD for openttd
05:35<Ammler>but openmsx should require timidity
05:35<Rubidium>there are other tools to play midi
05:35<Sacro>wtf, grfcodec is in AUR
05:35<Rubidium>iirc aplaymidi works with OpenTTD as well
05:36<Rubidium>so why force timidity?
05:36<Ammler>Rubidium: that is how it works :-)
05:36<@Terkhen>hmm... in other packages with similar issues arch lists some options as optional dependencies IIRC
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05:37<Rubidium>also, timidity without freepats works if the sound card supports it, so there is no direct dependency on freepats
05:37<Ammler>if you install a package, it should work and not need any hidden dependencies
05:38<Rubidium>rather timidity should depend on freepats if the hardware doesn't support playing the midi directly
05:38<@peter1138>if the hardware supports midi directly, timidity is irrelevant
05:38<@peter1138>but yes
05:38<@peter1138>music does not require timidity
05:39<Rubidium>so OpenTTD should recommend openmsx and openmsx should depend on *some* tool to play midi, not a specific tool, just generic
05:39<Ammler>oh well, if the packager does disagree, he can tag it as recommends or suggests
05:40<Rubidium>like in Debian there's a metapackage httpd, there ought to be some meta package for playing midi
05:40<Ammler>then at least user see, what "could" be missing
05:41<Rubidium>Ammler: why would the packager disagree; openmsx requires some way to play back midi. Which exactly isn't that important
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05:42<Ammler>Rubidium: disagree with "a package should work without hidden dependencies"
05:43<Rubidium>Ammler: why is it a hidden dependency?
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05:43<Ammler>installing openmsx without music player is useless
05:43<@peter1138>depending on a specific player that isn't necessary is also useless
05:43<Ammler>peter1138: how does that hurt?
05:44<Ammler>e.g. if it is a recommends?
05:44<Rubidium>Ammler: thus, if you install openmsx... openmsx makes sure that *some* midi playback is installed
05:44<Rubidium>it's not OpenTTD's task
05:44<Ammler>Rubidium: no, of course not
05:44<Ammler>I meant the packager
05:45<Rubidium>sorry to be blunt, but generally OpenTTD packagers have no real clue what they're doing
05:45<@peter1138>one day i'll bring my sdlmixer patch out from the dark ages ;p
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05:46<Rubidium>even then, suggesting or even recommending will get you into cases where the users configures to the system not to install recommends and OpenTTD is essentially useless as opengfx isn't installed
05:47<Ammler>opengfx is a require of openttd
05:47<manveru>well, opengfx wasn't a dependency either
05:47<Rubidium>although opengfx isn't a hard dependency of openttd; you should be able to install openttd without opengfx
05:47<Rubidium>after all, why should you be forced to install opengfx if you have the original files?
05:47<Ammler>how does that harm?
05:48<Ammler>hmm, which baseset is used on first start, if you have both installed?
05:48<Rubidium>"random" IIRC
05:48<manveru>i don't think i have the original files... lost the CD ages ago
05:48<Rubidium>or should I say undefined
05:49<@peter1138>whichever appears first in the filescan, maybe?
05:49<Ammler>Rubidium: again, openttd should work without hassle
05:50<Ammler>you are still able to run it with original set, with other music player etc...
05:50<Rubidium>Ammler: it does, in Debian, *if* you don't mess with the settings
05:50<Ammler>having those packages as requires/recommends doesn't harm that
05:50<Rubidium>requires != recommends
05:51<Ammler>well, Fedora doesn't know recommends
05:52<@peter1138>anything rpm based smells
05:52<@peter1138>so who cares
05:52<Ammler>peter1138: Fedora is not anything rpm
05:53<Ammler>suse rpm has recommends and suggests
05:53<Rubidium>yay... not benevolent dictator, see what a mess it becomes
05:53<Rubidium>ever seen the openttd.spec in OpenTTD's sources?
05:54<Ammler>Rubidium: at least rpm is able to have one spec for different versions
05:55<Ammler>how would debian build scripts look, if they wouldn't branch for every version?
05:55<Rubidium>depends on the amount of change, but you can generate most of the files during the build process
05:55<@peter1138>i do believe we only have 1
05:56<Rubidium>e.g. you could generate the changelog from upstream changelog
05:56<Ammler>which is not always a desire
05:57<Ammler>as you would miss the packager changes then
05:57<Rubidium>if you can generate it from one file, I doubt you wouldn't have much problems generating it from say... more than one
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05:59<Ammler>well, seems not that easy, else you would do for the debian.changelog
06:02<Rubidium>technically possible doesn't imply it's socially accepted
06:04<Rubidium>and I rather keep the Debian Debian spec and our Debian spec quite similar, as that makes moving changes back and forth in the packaging much easier as well
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06:07<Ammler>also "my" spec might look too complicated because openttd lacks of comfortable way to build dedicated and gui version
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06:11<Ammler>hmm, should look into that again, maybe that could be done easier...
06:16<manveru>so, how does that online game work? anything i should know before trying it?
06:17<@Terkhen>manveru: many servers have etiquette rules
06:20<@planetmaker>they might (or might not) give you a link to the rules upon connection
06:22<V453000>just be friendly and play friendly usually works well :P
06:22<manveru>ok, trying it now
06:28<@planetmaker>in case of doubt ask before you start competing for the goods of a particular industry.
06:29<V453000>"ask" and "communicate" is usually the best way :p
06:29<manveru>i hate when AIs do that anyway
06:29<V453000>some people are worse than AI unfortunately
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06:47<@planetmaker>quite. AIs are never evil.
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07:23<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
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08:10<@Terkhen>meh, I want to play futuristic openttd
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08:19<@planetmaker>We should code such NewGRF then, Terkhen ;-)
08:19<@planetmaker>I'd be with you there
08:19<@planetmaker>we just need some pixel slaves :-P
08:19<@Terkhen>then we need sprites, yes
08:20<@planetmaker>probably the toyland2mars conversion could be some kind of start...
08:20<@planetmaker>what would such future set need? vehicles, planes, roads, tracks
08:20<@planetmaker>houses, industries
08:20<@Terkhen>IIRC the sprites it uses are from some version of TT that included mars
08:20<@planetmaker>and possibly landscape. Yes
08:20<@planetmaker>indeed, so it's probably not usable
08:20<@Terkhen>I think so, yes
08:21<@Terkhen>landscape would be the most important part
08:21<@Terkhen>which planet would we be making? :P
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08:23<V453000>I am wondering how is a futuristic set going to look like :)
08:23<V453000>concrete and steel everywhere? :D
08:23<V453000>robotic livestock,...
08:24<@Terkhen>I guess that if we split landscape from the rest of the stuff we could even do various different places
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08:24<@Terkhen>earth is an option, I was thinking on mars :)
08:24<V453000>mars is already there ;)
08:24<@Terkhen>there are no cola wells or toffee quarries in mars :/
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08:25<V453000>hm, what is there instead? :o
08:25<V453000>dont remember
08:25<@Terkhen>I'm no fan of realism but... toyland industries in mars is too much for me :P
08:25<@Terkhen>toyland industries :P
08:25<@Terkhen>I want stuff more appropiate
08:25<V453000>:D then there must be cola wells
08:25<V453000>oh you mean there shouldnt be
08:25<V453000>mah, I like it :)
08:26<@Terkhen>it was the only way of playing toyland for a while, yes :)
08:33<@planetmaker>Mars would need the usual mines. Could use a helium plant with appropriate power plants which 'burn' it,..
08:33<@planetmaker>the usual stuff
08:34<V453000>I bet there is a lot of cola on Mars, you astro-people just didnt discover it yet :P
08:34<@planetmaker>there might be oxygen plants - which can be delivered to towns the same way as food
08:34<@planetmaker>no growth without
08:34<@Terkhen>same for water
08:34<@planetmaker>dome-like buildings
08:35<@Terkhen>so we need to use the tropical climate :)
08:35<@planetmaker>or arctic
08:35<@Terkhen>but arctic only has one cargo affecting town growth
08:35<@planetmaker>rather: we need town control :-P
08:35<@Terkhen>yes :)
08:36<@planetmaker>And... I still somewhat fancy newgrf landscape
08:36<@Terkhen>what about ice (in the landscape)?
08:36<@planetmaker>giving tiles possibly some random bits - and a height var and possibly a check for adjacent tiles
08:36<@planetmaker>Mars can have some ice
08:37<@planetmaker>but I'm not sure whether a newgrf landscape would not mean too much cpu just for landscape
08:37<@planetmaker>and I'm not clear about all required changes ;-)
08:38*Alberth remembers a document by Sir X :p
08:39<@Alberth>wasn't there a brickland landscape partly done?
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08:41<@planetmaker>some parts might be. dunno
08:41<@planetmaker>but that's not very futuristic either, is it?
08:42<V453000>just please dont make trains going 120983748 kmh :D
08:42<V453000>futuristic, but ... :P
08:43<@planetmaker>@calc 120983748 / 3.6 / 10**8
08:43<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 0.336065966667
08:43<@planetmaker>not quite ;-)
08:43<@planetmaker>I doubt trains ever travel at 1/3 speed of light
08:43<ChoHag>Not yet.
08:43<@planetmaker>never actually.
08:44<@planetmaker>unless you also invent intertia compensators or stuff like that
08:46<@peter1138>not necessary
08:46<@peter1138>just don't accelerate too fast
08:47<@peter1138>might take a while to get to ⅓c
08:48<@planetmaker>yes. But assuming you just want to reach another point on Earth by train, you get - even accelerating at an inconvenient 5g to a max speed of 50000m/s or ...
08:48<@planetmaker>@calc 50000*3.6
08:48<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 180000
08:49<@planetmaker>and then you'd be again at your starting point
08:49<@planetmaker>constantly accelerating or decelerating
08:49<@planetmaker>it'd take you a mere 20 minutes, though
08:50<@planetmaker>hm... I wonder... there should be a mistake in my math
08:51<@planetmaker>hm, no
08:51<@planetmaker>90 minutes is for constant 1g
08:51<@planetmaker>orbital time and free fall through Earth
08:52<@Terkhen>sorry, I had to go for a bit :)
08:52<@planetmaker>you missed nothing. I just proved that trains going at 1/3 of speed of light are not realistic :-P
08:52<@planetmaker>or deadly to the passengers
08:52<@Alberth>good :p
08:53<@Terkhen>planetmaker: hmm... that would be ice tiles as objects?
08:54<@planetmaker>hm... why?
08:54<@Terkhen><@planetmaker> giving tiles possibly some random bits - and a height var and possibly a check for adjacent tiles <--- what kind of tiles are you referring to then?
08:54<@planetmaker>feature 12: landscape ;-)
08:55<@planetmaker>getting carried away a bit ;-)
08:55<@Terkhen>oh :)
08:55<@Terkhen>it would be simpler to use existing climates for that
08:56<@planetmaker>yes, I didn't mean to need it really for that. But it'd be nice. Also with other climates
08:56<@planetmaker>Like one could give tiles a certain random component
08:56<@planetmaker>or seasonal variation
08:56<@planetmaker>or... ;-)
08:57<@planetmaker>or smoother desert <-> grass transition
08:57<@Terkhen>hmm... but if that needs storage in the map array it would get huge in size
09:00<@planetmaker>clear tiles and tree tiles have still MUCH free space
09:00<@planetmaker>it probably could do with keeping two (or including water three) different tiles per map
09:01<@planetmaker>it's from my phantasy just about allowing for more control of the visual representation
09:01<@planetmaker>so... not allowing to define a new type, but overriding tile type1 and tile type 2 - or so ;-)
09:01<@planetmaker>similar to signals, where you also have no action0
09:02<@planetmaker>or to railtypes previous to railtypes ;-)
09:03<@Terkhen>hmm... so you would use callbacks to define how a type is drawn?
09:07<@planetmaker>maybe not a callback, but varaction2
09:08<@Terkhen>wouldn't that make drawing a lot more expensive in time?
09:09<@planetmaker>the girls in the flat below me are funny. First they ask me whether I do have charcoal (I do). Now an hour later they ask whether I have some charcoal lighter... - did they plan *anything* when deciding to have a BBQ?
09:09<@planetmaker>Terkhen: yes, that's what I fear it would do. And which is probably the reason to not allow that
09:09<@Terkhen>they planned on having a neighbour that lets them use his stuff
09:10<@Terkhen>hi Belugas
09:10<@planetmaker>too bad I'll have guests drop by quite soon - or I'd now have BBQ with them :-P
09:11<Belugas>sir Terkhen :)
09:12<@Terkhen>we could also say that we are always far enough from the poles to have any ice on the surface :)
09:15<@planetmaker>hi Belugas
09:15<@planetmaker>yes, we could say so :-)
09:15<@Terkhen>if we only have one terrain type we can use toyland :P
09:16<@Terkhen>what about trees? we could turn them into sand dunes or something else that changes over time, but then towns shouldn't care much about their fate
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09:29<Belugas>sir planetmaker :)
09:29<@Terkhen>hmm... there is no agreement on railtype labels, right?
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09:30<@Terkhen>I also wonder why the metro tracks use MONO instead of checking if a specific label for them exists and if not reverting to MONO
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09:30<@Terkhen>s/metro tracks/2cc metros/
09:50<@planetmaker>Terkhen: unfortunately there is not. IMHO agreeing on certain default labels would make things much easier
09:51<@Terkhen>meh, I see
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09:56*Terkhen finally resigns himself about the metro tracks and moves to another thing
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10:13<Belugas>lucky foryou, the metro is entering the station at the moment :)
10:14<@peter1138>3RDR is, at least, pretty standard.
10:14<@peter1138>"metro" doesn't really specify a rail type, imho
10:15<@Terkhen>hmm... 3RDR then
10:16<@Terkhen>but still, 2cc uses MONO instead
10:16<@Terkhen>it isn't possible to use 3RDR if it is present, otherwise use MONO?
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10:16<@peter1138>2cc subways?
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10:17<@peter1138>it is possible, yes
10:17<@peter1138>aren't the 2cc subway trains included in the 2cc trainset anyway?
10:17<@Terkhen>yes, but I don't want to use all of them :)
10:17<@Terkhen>still, the issue is present in both set
10:17<@peter1138>no, 2cc trainset uses railtypes
10:18<@Terkhen> <--- metros use railtype number 11, which in the railtype table is MONO
10:19<@Terkhen> <--- here is the table
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10:20<@Terkhen>if they don't use a specific railtype label I don't know if it is possible to tell them apart from other MONO trains
10:20<@Terkhen>so they will end up in the same railtype
10:21<@peter1138>that list is different to what's in the 2.0.0-beta4.1 grf
10:21<@peter1138>RAIL ELRL _120 E120 _160 E160 _230 E230 HSTR 3RDC 3RDR MONO MGLV
10:21<@peter1138>is what's in the grf
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10:21<@Terkhen>hmm... ok, then I don't understand what is happening :P
10:23<@peter1138>2cc Subways uses the same table too
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10:24<@peter1138>hmm, but yeah, 2cc subways is on monrail
10:24<@Terkhen> <--- it was "fixed" somewhen
10:28<@peter1138>i dunno then
10:31<@Terkhen>whatever :P
10:32<@Terkhen>if djn becomes active again I'll ask him about the railtype scheme
10:36<@peter1138>i'm stupid :(
10:36<@peter1138>i shouldn't've implemented railtype speed limits
10:36<@peter1138>it's pointless :p
10:37<@Terkhen>given the amount of different limits in nutracks some people love them :)
10:37<@Terkhen>they would confuse me a lot though, I'm too used to checking train limits only
10:37<@Terkhen>and I don't see the point for using them either
10:39<@planetmaker>yes. Meanwhile I don't see use for railtype speed limits anymore either ;-)
10:40<@planetmaker>that's what we have engines for. And wagons
10:40<@planetmaker>and if one wants, one could extend signals to programmable ones or <whatever>
10:41<Ammler>what else then speed limit makes the use of different types?
10:42<@Terkhen>different trains on each type, different acceleration model
10:43<@Terkhen>there are more properties, but I have not checked railtypes much
10:44<@peter1138>i envisaged normal and fast tracks, i guess
10:44<@peter1138>so that a true high speed network would have to cost far more
10:45<@peter1138>rather than loads of different speeds for each type :S
10:45<@peter1138>high-speed non-electric seems pointless, f.e.
10:45<@planetmaker>well, it doesn't hurt to have that option. Nearly everything can be abused
10:46<@planetmaker>vehicles could also just crawl in April, drive insanely in May and normal in other months. But look differently around Christmas
10:46<@planetmaker>not that it would make sense ;-)
10:50<Ammler>different speed of same type might not be useful, but speed limit of a special type does, imo
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11:51<Mazur>Took some time to find out how, but now any CD in my RW will be mounted on /media/<cd name> at boot.
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22531 /trunk/src/lang/simplified_chinese.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 5 changes by Gavin
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14:49<xQR>when switching from console parsing to admin interface i was hoping to be able to get more information from the game, not less :/
14:49<xQR>anyone willing to look into what is probably a very small change but can make me infinitely happy? :D
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15:24<@Terkhen>meh, I'm bored
15:25<andythenorth>with what?
15:25<@Alberth>do a bit fileio refactoring :p
15:26<@Terkhen>andythenorth: with looking something entertaining to do, but I'm not sure I'm bored enough to follow Alberth's suggestion :P
15:26<@Terkhen>Alberth: what needs to be done?
15:26<andythenorth>Terkhen: convert FIRS to nml?
15:27<@Terkhen>hmm... IIRC we were waiting for the conversor to be fully ready
15:27<@Terkhen>I don't know its current status
15:27<@Alberth>a goal could be to enable tar-writing
15:27<andythenorth>ask Yexo
15:27<@Terkhen>oh, it can't write tars now?
15:27<@Alberth>a simpler goal would be to eliminate functions that operate on globals, by making them methods
15:28<@Yexo>Terkhen: if you want the diff I can upload it?
15:28<@Alberth>hmm, didn't check, really, but unless it is shared with bananas, I'd guess no
15:28<@Terkhen>Alberth: I'll give that file a look... but it is one of the scary files I have never checked :P
15:29<@Terkhen>Yexo: I wouldn't mind playing a bit with it and checking the output; what was missing?
15:29<@Yexo>not sure exactly
15:29*Alberth wonders what Terkhen thinks of network code :p
15:30<@Terkhen>Alberth: "makes sense but not completely, if I touch something it could fail badly"
15:30<@Yexo>Terkhen: and
15:30<@Yexo>apply in that order
15:31<@Alberth>andythenorth: why not convert it manually? I know it is a lot, but looking at it, you may see improvement opportunities
15:31<@Alberth>and/or re-organization possibilities
15:32<@Alberth>Terkhen: haha :) that sort of code is what I consider scary :)
15:32*Yexo warns Alberth not to look at the diffs I just posted for Terkhen :p
15:33*Alberth would not dare look at them
15:33<@Alberth>although the title does not suggest it does networking :p
15:33<@Yexo>that doesn't mean it's not scary code
15:34<@Alberth>how's the nml project going?
15:34<@Yexo>there is currently a somewhat big open bug with regard to the action2 reordering
15:34<@Terkhen>Yexo: thanks, let's see :)
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15:36<@Yexo>progress has been a bit slow lately
15:36<@Terkhen>we planned to convert FIRS 0.6.4, right?
15:37<@Yexo>I did some commits to that branch to make it easier to convert / to fix some smallish bugs
15:37<@Terkhen>ok :)
15:38<@Yexo>to convert, first compile firs so you have both firs.grf and firs.nfo
15:38<@Yexo>after that do "grep src/graphics firs.nfo > real_sprites.nfo"
15:39<@Yexo>realsprites.nfo, not real_sprites.nfo
15:39<@Yexo>that file is hardcoded in the diff
15:40<@Yexo>after that "nmlc firs.grf --nml firs.nml" should work
15:42<@Terkhen>it works for a while (giving warnings) and then that error
15:43<@Yexo>hmm, should be tile.x instead of tile['x']
15:43<andythenorth>Alberth: I won't convert FIRS manually...
15:43<andythenorth>...because I'm not smoking crack
15:44<@Yexo>I thought I had fixed that somewhen, but apparently not
15:44<@Yexo>that bug is in nml trunk, so could be fixed there
15:45<@Alberth>andythenorth: i don't see how that helps, but perhaps you could consider starting doing that?
15:46<andythenorth>I would have to smoke a lot of crack before I'd consider starting to smoke crack :P
15:46<@Terkhen>Yexo: what should I do for tile['tile']? after fixing tile.x and tile.y it fails on tile.tile
15:46<@Terkhen>ok :)
15:46<@Yexo>see class LayoutTile 40 lines down
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15:48<@Alberth>Yexo: I don't even understand that bug description :p
15:48<@Yexo>Alberth: IIRC you wrote the code that handles that :p
15:48<@Yexo>Terkhen: oh, you have to create the directory lang_output yourself
15:49<@Terkhen>Done :)
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15:49<@Alberth>sprite layout?
15:49<@Yexo>sprite layout = action2 for houses / industries
15:52<@Alberth>the only 'real' things I did are town names, snow line, and sound as far as I can remember
15:52<@Terkhen>Yexo: did you try to compile the results?
15:53<@Yexo>but it needs 1 or 2 manual fixes
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15:53<@Terkhen>oh right, I was using default nml and it misses "rot"
15:54<@Terkhen>yes, I had to move default.lng to english.lng and change its id
15:54<@Yexo> shell script to automate that
15:55<@SmatZ>hmm... kernel 2.6.38 sucks... there's like 20% chance I get a kernel panic during bootup :/
15:55<@Yexo>it 'fixes', default.lng -> english.lng and ghte grflangid
15:55<@Terkhen>great, thank you :)
15:56<@Yexo>a more proper fix for rot would be to add it to nml as function "rot(value, amount)"
15:58<@Yexo>Terkhen: a good start would be to clean some of the mess in, if that's done we could start committing parts without breaking default nml
15:59<@Yexo>hmm, how did you call nmlc?
16:00<@Terkhen>../nfo2nml/nmlc firs.nml
16:00<@Yexo>with the patch applied?
16:00<@Yexo>if so, that's the problem
16:00<@Terkhen>yes, that is the patched version
16:00<@Terkhen>ok :)
16:00<@Yexo>the patch hardcodes the decode function, you can't encode an nml file with the patch applied
16:02<@Terkhen>nmlc: "input", line 46650: Cannot refer to block 'action2_6584' with feature 0A, expected feature is 09
16:02<@Yexo>replace that line by "CB_FAILED"
16:02<@Yexo>since that is what the line actually means
16:03<@Yexo>but I couldn't find a way to automate that fix
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16:04<@Terkhen>I have firs.grf now :)
16:05<@Yexo>great :)
16:07<@Yexo>one known bug is that firs uses action7 to skip some action4's
16:07<@Terkhen>parameters are gone, I remember some warnings about action14 during conversion though
16:07<@Yexo>it assigns a different string as name of some cargoes depending on the climate
16:07<@Yexo>nml doesn't support that syntax
16:07<andythenorth>I'm not sure that's even wise
16:08<andythenorth>I don't like that behaviour, it's unhelpful variation
16:08<andythenorth>I might rethink it
16:08<@Yexo>so currently it just uses the first or last value of the string
16:08<@Yexo>action14 is missing, would be nice to add too :)
16:09<@Terkhen>I can't test much more because FIRS fails to detect 1.1.1 as a version higher than 1.1.0, I guess those checks are broken too
16:10<@Yexo>hmm, that is one bug I don't remember
16:10<@Terkhen>I still don't know python and this is something quite big for a start, but I'll check the code of the patches and try to understand what it is doing :P
16:10<@Yexo>nml is still my first python project too :)
16:11<andythenorth>Terkhen: I don't know python
16:11<andythenorth>I just code in it
16:12<@Terkhen>Yexo: why is regr_added changing the regression tests?
16:14<@Yexo>because the decompile script doesn't support grf files without an action8
16:15<@Terkhen>I did not know that you could do newgrfs without that
16:15<@Yexo>baseset grfs don't have an action8
16:15<@Yexo>other than that all grfs need one
16:16<@Terkhen>so the newgrfs generated from the current regression files would fail if loaded in openttd?
16:16<@Yexo>at least some of them
16:16<@Terkhen>ok :)
16:20<@Terkhen>I have coded operations before, I'll try to understand and split 010 in nicer pieces
16:20<@Yexo>ok, thanks :)
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16:29*andythenorth thinks of rebuilding all FIRS templating in nml
16:30<andythenorth>brrr :)
16:31<@Terkhen>andythenorth: <--- templates of opengfx+ industries, maybe we can reuse some of them?
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>boah... drinking holidays are ever so complicated...
16:32<andythenorth>the template structure of FIRS is not too complicated, but there's a lot of it
16:32<andythenorth>I mostly avoided templates-in-templates, but not entirely
16:33<@Terkhen>we could take advantage of templating for conversion; we should convert all of the industries with the same template at once
16:33<@Terkhen>but given how the resulting code looks I'm not sure if we will be able to find those :P
16:33<andythenorth>it needs to be done by manually comparing with pnfo code
16:33<@Terkhen>I guess we could start from the action0 and find the callbacks from it
16:33<andythenorth>grep templates
16:34<@Terkhen>yes, I have checked FIRS templates for ogfx-industries
16:34<andythenorth>there are 35 templates currently
16:35<@Terkhen>big :P
16:39<Zuu>Why does g++ need to be so bitchy about my circular references involving a childclass of a template class :-p
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16:42*Zuu thinks of an ugly workaround by moving the code that uses the circluar refrence up/down in the inherence tree
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: make one inheritance private?
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>(not sure if that solves anything)
16:45<Zuu>I don't think so as it doesn't change the include-stuff (as far as I know)
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16:52<fjb>Hm, a class is a struct (ok, only if all members are public). Circular references to structs should be possible as long as you reference the struct and no typedef of the struct.
16:53<Zuu>Regular circular references work fine, just this one is incredible complicated.
16:54<Zuu>I think it is a symptom that I need to sort out a better way for the windows in my windowsystem to communicate with the main GUI code.
16:54<fjb>Then I don't know. I'm usually asking here when I'm having a C(++) problem.
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17:21<@Terkhen>good night
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18:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22532 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix: Do not create an implicit order if the current order is the first order in the order list and we visit the station of the last entry of the order list.
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---Logclosed Fri Jun 03 00:00:30 2011