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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-06-03

---Logopened Fri Jun 03 00:00:30 2011
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01:04<@planetmaker>good morning
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02:36<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:09<ChoHag><Michi> Here's the bug fix release 2.
03:10<ChoHag>Also, about feckin' time.
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03:35<@planetmaker>a patch to a patch is always on time, never too late nor ever too early ;-)
03:36<Eddi|zuHause>i thought that was "a wizard is never late"
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03:39<@planetmaker>badly cited from memory, but still recognized ;-)
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04:05<bodis>only have a couple of minutes now so wont bother asking questions but I am glad I found my way here now ::)
04:06<bodis>discovered openttd 4 days ago
04:06<bodis>boy isnt it adictive
04:06<@planetmaker>there's also a well-frequented forum at
04:06<@Terkhen>hi bodis
04:06<@planetmaker>but yes, probably most people here will agree, bodis ;-)
04:06<@Terkhen>yes, I'm now struggling to code instead of playing :/
04:07<@planetmaker>Terkhen, it's also a kind of adiction ;-) - or playing with other means
04:07<bodis>yep I was coding before and now havent opened gedit for 4 days straight :)
04:07<bodis>anyway gotta take kids to the park talk to you lot later
04:07<@Terkhen>see you bodis
04:08<bodis>yeah always :)
04:08<@Alberth>a new yacd
04:08<@planetmaker>yup. Already compiled it this morning during breakfast ;-)
04:09<@Terkhen>and it fixes the most annoying parts :)
04:09<@Terkhen>that's why I'm struggling, but I really should do something useful today :P
04:09<@planetmaker>reads like it, yes
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05:31<bodis>hey again
05:32<@Terkhen>hi bodis
05:32<bodis>right as you might have guesed I am new to ottd
05:33<bodis>I am a debian man and current release on debian is 1.0.4
05:33<bodis>am I missing alot?
05:33<Noldo>check what you might get from backports
05:34<bodis>just wondered if there is alot of difference
05:34<bodis>I wont be multiplaying yet
05:34<Noldo>You'll have to read through the changelogs to know for sure
05:34<bodis>k :)
05:35<Noldo>I'd propably play atleast few games with the version you can get easy
05:35<bodis>right then you guys do still play single player?
05:35<bodis>cos all the infor on the net suggests that majority are playing coop
05:36<@Terkhen>yes, single player is quite common too
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>get the latest release from there are also .debs available
05:36<Noldo>I'm all Eve online and League of Legends lately, but there is nothing wrong with single player
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>1.0.x is missing quite a lot over 1.1.x
05:36<@Terkhen>in fact until a few months ago I only played single player
05:36<bodis>ok ty
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>bodis: "coop" is only a very loud minority ;)
05:37<bodis>good :)
05:37<Noldo>oh my there are a lot of thing tagged Feature in 1.1.0-beta1
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>there are many very different playing styles around
05:37<bodis>so I managed to get my game 20 years in game and got 20mil pounds
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>Noldo: of course, almost a year worth of new developments
05:38<bodis>is it all about trains and plains?
05:38<bodis>roads seems to be not needed at all?
05:38<bodis>what is the general idea?
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>you can have ships and trucks too. especially within cities where there isn't a lot of space
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>from online content you can get tram sets, those are incredibly well for passenger transport in cities
05:39<bodis>but rail seems to be the main money maker?
05:39<bodis>what is the goal these days?
05:39<bodis>get most money or create the best infrastructure?
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>there is no real goal
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>pick one
05:40<bodis>does the game stop at 2050 even if you start 1930?
05:40<bodis>or is it 100 years?
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>the game never stops
05:40<@Terkhen>the score screen always appear at 2050, but you can keep playing for a few million years IIRC
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>2050 you get a nice table with your score, but it has no real end
05:41<bodis>what size maps do you guys go for?
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>the score calculation isn't the best part of the game anyway
05:41<V453000>this game has basically no limits :P that is why it is so good
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>bodis: as a beginner, you shouldn't get too large, but not too small either
05:41<bodis>heh need to rethink my strategy :)
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>256 or 512 each side
05:42<bodis>got 512 now
05:42<bodis>should I play with oppnents or on my own?
05:43<V453000>sure, it has multiplayer
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>the opponents might teach you some things, but they tend to get in your way quickly
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>(if you mean AI opponents)
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't played with opponents in years
05:43<V453000>oh :D I didnt even consider those
05:44<bodis>o the real goal is not to score at 2050, its to create a super network
05:45<V453000>pretty much
05:45<V453000>you create your own goal basically
05:46<bodis>ok then, so really you wanna connect cities with roads, rail and the rest
05:46<@Terkhen>it is relatively easy to get perfect rating before 2050
05:46<@Terkhen>I always fail because of the "profits over 20.000€" parameter, but only because I use road vehicles
05:46<@Terkhen>if I only used trains I would have no problems on getting 1000
05:47<@Terkhen>so it is a nice goal when you are learning, later you forget about it
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>bodis: basically you set yourself goals like "nice looking", "very efficient", "very high cargo amount" or "connect everything" and then play on
05:47<bodis>k :)
05:47<@Terkhen>yes, those are the most frequent goals :)
05:48<@Terkhen>although I usually do "I'm going to build stuff until I'm bored"
05:48<V453000>which usually results best :p
05:48<bodis>right I read somewhere about creating your main depot away from cities so you can expand freele?
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>not all tips you find on the net are important for all playing styles
05:49<V453000>or even for at least any :P
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>i myself play without breakdowns, so i don't really have a need for depots
05:49<V453000>do your trains break once in a while?
05:50<V453000>like they stop and produce steam and then they continue
05:50<bodis>no I dont have breakdowns
05:50<bodis>do you have like a main line through the map and connect to it?
05:51<V453000>yes, I always did that
05:51<V453000>keeps it somewhat systematic
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>this was my last game on a small (128x256) map:,%205.%20Nov%201988.png (12MB)
05:53<V453000>looks nice :) my last game on a small map resulted in 5000 road vehicles ._.
05:53<bodis>Error: Dependency is not satisfiable: libicu38 (>= 3.8-5)
05:53<@Terkhen>how do you manage the buses for local transport at big towns? lots of groups, or a single group following a large route?
05:54<@Terkhen>bodis: that usually happens when you download a deb file that is not created for your debian/ubuntu version
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>i make several groups. one for each line
05:54<bodis>hmm that was a squeeeze
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>wait, i have a picture for that as well
05:54<bodis>damn lenny :)
05:55<@Terkhen>ok :)
05:55<bodis>lol thanks :)
05:55<@Terkhen>I have started recently to use groups, I'm still trying to find the best way to organize them
05:55<V453000>does alpine climate work fine with FIRS?
05:56<bodis>do the towns join together later in the game?
05:56<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: no, i hacked it
05:56<@Terkhen>bodis: they keep being separate towns, but they can grow into each other
05:56<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: oh :D
05:56<@Terkhen>OpenGFX+ Landscape has an alpine setting too :)
05:57<V453000>yes but that doesnt allow ttd base tiles
05:57<V453000>... does it?
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>only opengfx base
05:58<V453000>yes ... so how do you "hack" it? :)
05:58<Eddi|zuHause>the RV groups:,%204.%20Aug%201953_3.png
05:58<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: thanks :)
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05:59<bodis>do you need to start planting big stations at the start of the game or do you do alot of demolishing later on?
05:59<bodis>cos it seems that towns grow in your way
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: you replace sprite 1060 (iirc) of alpinew.grf with an unconditional jump to end of file, and remove the alpine compatibility check from firs
06:00<V453000>oh, so modifying the newgrfs
06:00<V453000>bodis: just set their growth to slower rates or disallow them to build roads on their own (best option)
06:00<Eddi|zuHause>additional work required if you want food acceptance for houses, but easier to load swedish houses, that almost eleminates all alpine/default houses from the map
06:01<bodis>but if they dont grow you dont get business
06:01<V453000>they can grow
06:01<ChoHag>Bloody coal mine stopped shipping to the destination immediately after I paid for a £100k line linking to it.
06:01<V453000>but you manage the roads so they do not screw it up
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06:10<bodis>so if you build roads to towns they will grow only around roads?
06:10<ChoHag>Not 'only'.
06:26<bodis>do you guys download any addons?
06:26<ChoHag>I do.
06:27<bodis>there are a few new GRF items to download
06:27<bodis>download everything?
06:28<bodis>whats all that newGFR ?
06:28<bodis>seems to be items like new trains etc
06:29*ChoHag shrugs
06:29<bodis>hehe :)
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06:37<@Alberth>extensions originally containing only graphics, but nowadays you can code almost everything in the game in it; vehicles, tracks, houses, industries, eye-candy, etc
06:38<Rubidium>bad wording...
06:38<@Alberth>usually you should refrain from loading several sets that do the same
06:38<Rubidium>almost everything is far far from true
06:39<@Alberth>there is a better description available, in less words than the entire spec?
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>depends on your general boundaries of "everything"
06:41<ChoHag>He did say 'almost' everything.
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>if you mean "life, the universe, and everything", then the answer is 42.
06:41<Rubidium>yes, but what you just said kinda implies that all patches can be implemented as NewGRF and thus downloaded via the in-game downloader. Only reinforcing the "myth" that it is actually possible
06:42<Rubidium>it's more like NewGRFs provides constants for OpenTTD's game model
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>for various interpretations of "constant" :p
06:42<Rubidium>but, that now most of those constants can be computed on the fly by the NewGRF
06:43<@Alberth>like industries behave like a constant :p
06:43<bodis>so should I download anything?
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>while Alberth's description might have been too general, yours was too limited definitely
06:44<Rubidium>i.e. NewGRFs don't add any features beyond what is implemented in OpenTTD's game model
06:44<ChoHag>Anything which has an interesting description.
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>bodis: you can download everything, but you should not enable everything at the same time
06:44<bodis>ok I think I will stick with original for a while :)
06:44<@Alberth>bodis: click 'online content' in the main menu
06:45<@Alberth>there is a NewGRF category there :)
06:45<@Alberth>unfortunately, it misses useful tagging, so unless you sort of know what to look for, it is a big pile
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>start slowly, with one newgrf set, explore what it does, then the next game add another, and so on
06:46<@Alberth>obviously these extensions are discussed at the forum
06:46<bodis>k thanks
06:46<bodis>I will read up
06:46<bodis>but first need to get my first city going :)
06:46<bodis>thanks for advice guys
06:46<@Alberth> is the section for the newgrfs themselves.
06:47<bodis>need to get me kids out again :)
06:47<@Alberth>in the openttd forums, you'll find use of them in context of openttd
06:47<@Alberth>always glad to help someone to an addiction
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07:31<@planetmaker><V453000> yes ... so how do you "hack" it? :) <-- there is no legal way which also looks good
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08:36<ChoHag>Wtf? That's twice now supply industries have stopped shipping to connected destinations.
08:36<ChoHag>Michi what did you DO?
08:37<+glx>how many stations around ?
08:38<@Alberth>any revent new destinations popped up?
08:38<ChoHag>New destinations, yes.
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08:38<ChoHag>But that shouldn't close down active routes.
08:38<@Alberth>why not?
08:38<ChoHag>Not without a big warning. "Your trains are all about to start losing money fast."
08:39<@peter1138>i tend to agree
08:39<@peter1138>a well serviced route shouldn't be replaced, imho
08:39<@Alberth>such a warning sounds fair enough
08:40<ChoHag>Closing down is fine - business is business after all.
08:40<ChoHag>But not without warning, at the very least.
08:41<@peter1138>it should also be supplier-centric, i reckon
08:41<ChoHag>Perhaps the option of a cash injection to keep it going to see it if becomes profitable.
08:41<@Alberth>sounds like a setting
08:41<ChoHag>ie. the ~ £100k line I'd just finished when the route closed.
08:41<@Alberth>oh, that happens with plain openttd too
08:42<@peter1138>something like industries prefering nearby suppliers unless a long distance supplier has greater production
08:42<@peter1138>would be ncie
08:43<@Alberth>that does not eliminate the above problem
08:44<@peter1138>not by itself, no
08:44<ChoHag>I think perhaps supply routes can open and close in the same fashion as industries open/close.
08:44<ChoHag>Probably in the same news item.
08:44<@Alberth>oh boy :)
08:44<@Alberth>there is too much such news already :)
08:45<ChoHag>That way new industries can 'supply' to pretty much everything in a certain radius, then once links are made, only the profitable ones remain.
08:45<ChoHag>Yeah there needs to be better news filtering
08:46<@Alberth>huh? --> "then once links are made, only the profitable ones remain."
08:46<ChoHag>eg. ignore any industry not in a catchment area of one of my own stations.
08:46*planetmaker always has turned off all news ;-)
08:46<@planetmaker>except vehicle crashes
08:46<ChoHag>Well a coal mine (say) in the (perhaps misnamed) outgoing cargo section to everything within a certain distance.
08:46<ChoHag>Then the player comes in and links some of those up.
08:47<ChoHag>Eventually those which are linked up will remain in the list, the others will go away.
08:47<@Alberth>you are thinking of cargo-dist (dest?)
08:47<ChoHag>Occasionally (not just when new industries are planted) new links will open up, perhaps with a subsidy offer, with a chance to remain if the transportation is supplied.
08:47<@Alberth>yacd doesn't care about what you do, afaik, at this time
08:48<@planetmaker>which is not too bad
08:48<@planetmaker>if it cared, it'd be cargodist
08:48<ChoHag>There ought to be some amount of caring.
08:49<@planetmaker>only thing which indeed also bothers me is the high volatility of routes when there are few suppliers and many recipients of a cargo
08:49<@Alberth>I can imagine that to be a setting
08:49<ChoHag>Usually busineses care most about those things which make actual money.
08:49<@Terkhen>that's work for a different patch IMO, you might want to try the cargodist addition that fonso did for yacd
08:49<ChoHag>Oh I know YACD doesn't do this.
08:49<ChoHag>I'm just thinking aloud.
08:50<@planetmaker>well. Mixing up unrelated problems doesn't help solutions at all
08:50<ChoHag>How is it unrelated?
08:51<ChoHag>Problem: Supply/demand links which are used nonetheless close down. Solution: Profitability of a transport is a prime deciding factor in whether a supplier continues to supply to a particular destination.
08:53<ChoHag>Closely related, industries will happily supply most of their cargo to an unconnected industry on the other side of the map.
08:53<@planetmaker>how is the latter a problem?
08:53<ChoHag>It's not. It's just a bit silly.
08:54<@planetmaker>where do you think the coal which is fed to the power plant a few streets further down is dug out of the Earth?
08:54<@Alberth>yacd just adds the idea of cargo having a destination. Policies how to allocate/maintain destinations is a level on top of that, imho
08:54<@planetmaker>where does the butter come from? Or the tomatoes?
08:55<ChoHag>Um. Completely fucking stupid is not the same thing as 'a bit silly'.
08:55<@planetmaker>I don't see the 'sillyness' in it, not the least.
08:55<@planetmaker>It's even relaistic
08:55<ChoHag>As a creator of widgets, I'm happy to sell to whoever will buy them, but more likely to sell to people close by as shipping is simpler and easier.
08:56<ChoHag>At the very least, people close to me are more likely to buy (ie. demand) widgets from me than an identical widget manufacturer 1000s of miles away.
08:56<@planetmaker>unless they differ by something the rough cargo specs of OpenTTD cannot grasp
08:56<ChoHag>Indeed not, but that is the exception rather than the rule.
08:57<@planetmaker>may that be price or functionality or whatever.
08:57<@planetmaker>if you say, so it must be so. I maintain to disagree.
08:57<ChoHag>I daresay that more of the oil drilled out of the North Sea goes to the Scottish refineries than those in the US or the far east.
08:57<ChoHag>Some will, undoubtedly.
08:57<Thorn_>Yes, the north sea belongs to us.
08:57<Thorn_>And we will take it back, and with it, our FREEDOM
08:59<ChoHag>This is not my opinion.
08:59<ChoHag>It's business 101.
09:00<ChoHag>Buy cheap, sell dear. Cheep is directly correlated with Close (ie. transportation costs).
09:00<fjb>The transport company does not buy the cargo. It just transports it. So when a factory at the other side of the map buys some stuff it has to be transported there somehow.
09:00<ChoHag>There's always a reason why a general rule doesn't hold in a specific case, but that doesn't stop it from being a general rule.
09:01<ChoHag>Well yes.
09:01<ChoHag>But the liklihood of a factory buying stuff from the other side of the world is a lot lower than the likilhood of buying stuff from a supplier a few hundres miles away.
09:01<@planetmaker>fjb just made your whole argument void, though ;-)
09:02<fjb>TTD is about transporting stuff, not about buying it.
09:02<ChoHag>Yes, and that's why it turned into a game of find-the-longest-link-you-can.
09:02<ChoHag>Which is fine.
09:03<ChoHag>But YACD is a (generally quite successful) attempt to undo that by introducing, or perhaps correcting, the concept of supply and demand.
09:03<fjb>Longest link doesn't always give the most profit.
09:03<fjb>Even without YADP.
09:05<@Terkhen>hi Belugas
09:05<fjb>Moin Belugas
09:06<Belugas>hi guys :)
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09:22<Eddi|zuHause> <-- a few things like aligning and widget size are not right in this picture...
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>and big gui without big font seems kinda pointless
09:23<@Terkhen>yes, I wonder why he did not change it
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>all button texts should be center-aligned imho
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09:33<fjb>Moin andythenorth
09:41<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
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10:03<Eddi|zuHause>"Graphics set: original_dos_de (0)" <-- does anyone have a statistics how the distribution between base set usage is?
10:06<Rubidium>pm does, IIRC
10:07<Rubidium>... it's more a bug report per base set statistic
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>could crawl the screenshot forum ;)
10:08<Rubidium>I guess it's better that orudge runs osie over all attachments or something
10:11<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, about 65% of the bug reporters use OpenGFX
10:12<@planetmaker>not a huge statistical basis, but... consistent
10:13<Rubidium>ah, I forgot ones they pasted as a comment
10:14<Rubidium>but yes, as you can see... 6 times as many people use no graphics than the original german dos graphics
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>how does one use "no" graphics?
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10:15<Rubidium>crash before a graphics set is chosen
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10:16<@planetmaker>Rubidium, how did you get by that statistics?
10:16<Rubidium>grepping the tracker's attachments
10:17<@planetmaker>so all attachment since when flyspray started?
10:17<@planetmaker>that gives a certain bias ;-)
10:18<@planetmaker>as OpenGFX was not around since the beginnings of FlySpray? Or do I err?
10:18<Rubidium>very true in fact
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but nobody cares about opengfx ;)
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>the bias for non-unique users is way bigger
10:18<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, not in the data set I provided
10:18<@planetmaker>but yes, it is. But my data also show that that bias is not big
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>and i guess the number of bug reports actually increased
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10:19<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: you also need to consider that the crashlog is not as old as flyspray either
10:19<Rubidium>... the crash logger data grep crawled through was only introduced in 1.0.0, whereas OpenGFX existed a dozen moons before that
10:19-!-marius [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:19<@planetmaker>:-) also true
10:20<Ammler>hmm, what was first opengfx or openttd dos support?
10:20-!-OwenS [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:20<@planetmaker>the latter
10:20<Ammler>but not much
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>what? dos graphics support was almost as old as openttd itself
10:21<Ammler>0.5 didn't have it
10:21<Ammler>not sure about 0.6
10:22<Rubidium>Ammler: closeer to half a gross of moons
10:22<Rubidium>Ammler: look for "OpenTTD runs with the grf files of the DOS version" in the changelog
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: i'd rather say openttd was palette-agnostic right from the beginning, only since newgrfs came along the trouble started with multiplayer
10:23<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, not true
10:23<@peter1138>hmm, well, sort of
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>anyway DOS grf support was here long before i came
10:24<@peter1138>dos grf support wasn't just about palettes
10:24<@peter1138>the dos grfs miss some sprites that the windows grfs have
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>anything other than the fishuk-icon?
10:25<@peter1138>- Fix: Non-existing sprite #5125 (presignal). The DOS grf file trgi.grf has 6 less sprites than the windows one [SF#1188777]
10:26<@peter1138>yes, sourceforge, not flyspray :)
10:26<Ammler>hmm, well :-)
10:26<@peter1138>that fix is r2229
10:26-!-OwenS [~oshepherd@2002:6d4a:c7b0::1] has joined #openttd
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>so nobody even tried for 1200 revisions? :p
10:27<Rubidium>planetmaker: those are the fisheye things. The rest is just because for DOS it put the extra GRFs' sprites 6 positions earlier
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10:28<@peter1138> (svn r1038) Feature: OpenTTD runs with the grf files of the DOS version
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>"MI6 replaces bomb-building instructions with cake-recipie"
10:28<@peter1138>so it didn't, before that
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: but large parts of that revision only handles the filenames
10:30<@peter1138>a lot of it is the palettes
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10:39<@planetmaker>hm, a certain Terkhen was faster with the reply in the water tower and banks thread ;-)
10:47<Rubidium>so much time wasted to make it valid html ;)
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10:47<@planetmaker>:-) thank you
10:48<@planetmaker>plain text would have sufficed ;-)
10:50<@planetmaker>he... there's a surprising amount of variation of what actually NewStations v0.42 from 05.09.05 actually is ;-)
10:51<@planetmaker>7 or 8 md5sums...
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>the name is wrong anyway, it's actually NewStations v0.44
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10:52<Eddi|zuHause>so you have 3 different grfs by 2 palettes, makes 6 files
10:54<@planetmaker>World Airliners Set Modified Development Release r538 <-- also around several times
10:55<@planetmaker>ttrs 3.02a around also a couple of times (6)
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>what data is the foundation of this list?
10:55<@planetmaker>servers reporting their use
10:55<@planetmaker>I assume. As I asked for it ;-)
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>currently running servers?
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11:02<Rubidium>nope, all used NewGRFs by any server that the masterserver's updater did have the time for to get the name for
11:03<Rubidium>(there are 3 newgrfs it didn't get the name for so those aren't listed)
11:04<@peter1138>grif 00000001
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>aren't there some GRFIDs that are reserved?
11:04<@peter1138>lots of HEQS
11:05<@peter1138>hmm, people using opengfx as newgrf?
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>there are tons of ECS grfs
11:05<Rubidium>probably from long long ago
11:05<@planetmaker>Thus the last two should not be there. But there's some sleeping bug, IIRC
11:05<@peter1138>FBFB seems popular
11:06<@planetmaker>it's his "call sign"
11:06<Rubidium>when the check wasn't working correctly
11:06<@peter1138>fbfb0401 is metro track, and also firs
11:06<Rubidium>or even... the extra grf used in 0.6.x
11:07<@peter1138>i see
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: so all servers that ever reported to the masterserver?
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>(and that were online for a significant amount of time)
11:09<Rubidium>since sept 2007 IIRC
11:09<Rubidium>or since I rewrote the masterserver
11:09<Rubidium>whichever came last
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>"Doppelstockwagen DBz750" <-- some grfs are out there that i never heard of
11:12<@peter1138>504Exxxx is me
11:12<@peter1138>dunno about russianw.grf though
11:12<@peter1138>could be though
11:12<@peter1138>yeah, i might've done a unicode version of the original
11:14<@planetmaker>now, though... do we make an authorative list of taken grfIDs from that?
11:14<@planetmaker>similar to how people can claim AI short names?
11:14<Ammler>train length display in the depot does not work with Verdana
11:15<Rubidium>planetmaker: it is a list of taken GRF IDs
11:16<Rubidium>but I wouldn't call it authorative
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: if FBFB is foobar, what is 4642 then? (that should be "FB" if i didn't miscount)
11:17<@peter1138>probably uses both :)
11:18<@planetmaker>Rubidium, it's certainly not all NewGRFs and their IDs. But it certainly would be a good start.
11:18<Rubidium>you could compare it to the grfid list from grfcrawler
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it certainly serves for blocking these IDs from bananas
11:19<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, doesn't make sense. Authors might want to upload them
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: name comparison?
11:19<@peter1138>besides, if you blocked based on id, someone would just change the id
11:19<@planetmaker>that'd be the point
11:20<@planetmaker>to not add new newgrfs using an already taken ID. But still...
11:20<Rubidium>if they're not on bananas yet, who really cares?
11:21*planetmaker doesn't ;-)
11:21<@planetmaker>Uploaded IDs are already blocked by default
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: someone who wants to upload such a GRF gets a message: "a GRF with ID XX XX XX XX and name YYYY already exists, but is not uploaded to BaNaNaS yet. if you are the author of this set, please contact <support> for permission to upload. if you have a different set, please change the GRFID, check <website> for list of used GRF-IDs"
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>with fixed style ;)
11:24<@planetmaker>Might make sense. But then, admittedly, I don't think that any of the old NewGRFs which are not on bananas will ever get there - thus I'm not really convinced it is work well spent
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>err... there's a NewShips with ID 6D32...? "mB"?
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>not even that
11:25*Alberth reads m2
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>m2, yes
11:26<@planetmaker>maybe an eddi-like hack of an existing NewGRF ;-)
11:26<@planetmaker>to circumvent some whatever check
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11:30<@planetmaker>my search string query is too long for grfcrawler ;-)
11:30*Rubidium sees that as a low priority feature request... first all the bugs in bananas ought to be fixed ;)
11:30<Rubidium>planetmaker: just request a "dump" of grfid + name from eis_os
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>a simple website with a search field "is this grfid used yet" might be useful. put it in a sticky in the grf development forum
11:32<@peter1138>one day it'll support 32bpp too
11:32<@planetmaker>but there's no place yet which to query, Eddi|zuHause
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11:33<@planetmaker>4 of 41 IDs found on the first test in grfcrawler
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11:35<Rubidium>planetmaker: I'd like to know the reverse
11:35<Rubidium>how many ids from grfcrawler are known by the masterserver
11:36<@planetmaker>let's see what he'll reply
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11:44<Eddi|zuHause>hm... is the "Do not put files into content_download, they may be overwritten" thing part of the readme?
11:45<@planetmaker>the "do not put them there" yes. Overwritten... not really.
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11:45<@planetmaker>But it's clearly said that user files have no belonging there
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>well, better add it
11:46<@planetmaker> <-- who doesn't obey it...
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>maybe even put a "directories.txt" (copy of section 4.2) into ~/.openttd
11:49<@planetmaker>also a readme_files.txt? ;-)
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>redundancy is very important in educating people :p
11:50<@planetmaker>which then lists readme, known_bugs, changelog.txt, docs/admin_network,txt, docs/Readme_OS2.txt, docs/o??_format.txt docs/multiplayer.txt docs/landscape*.html docs/HOWTO_compile_lang_files.txt docs/ReadmeWindows_MSVC.txt
11:51<@planetmaker>oh, docs/32bpp.txt
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i mean, people who manage to find My Documents\OpenTTD might have never seen the binary and its readme before
11:52<@planetmaker>I mean... readme has even a table of content. So who doesn't open a readme doesn't look into directories.txt either
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11:53<@planetmaker>that might be true. But that then just should mean to place the readme.txt there
11:53-!-OwenS [] has joined #openttd
11:54<@planetmaker>which then c/should mention where to find the additional doc files... maybe just another copy of the readme file
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12:21<andythenorth>Ammler: there was some talk about a bananas dev environment, maybe on a vm?
12:23<Ammler>andythenorth: no problem, just tell me what you need
12:23<andythenorth>I'm not sure
12:23<andythenorth>I don't know how the production environment is configured
12:23<andythenorth>who does?
12:23<Ammler>Truebrain only maybe :-)
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12:24<@planetmaker>nginx and django. The database is MySQL afaik
12:25<andythenorth> :P
12:25<Ammler>I guess, we could simply use the svn?
12:25<@planetmaker>of what?
12:26<@planetmaker>not quite, I guess. It can't be in the repo as there are files which contain passwords
12:26<@planetmaker>but it's a start
12:27<Rubidium>everything but the passwords are in subversion
12:28<Ammler>andythenorth: are you able to setup a server?
12:28<Rubidium>IIRC you need the whole website directory
12:28<Ammler>Rubidium: not possible for you to setup a kind of stage server?
12:28<Ammler>might be easier...
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12:29<Ammler>not that I mind :-)
12:29<TrueBrain>better question, why you would want something like that
12:29<Ammler>TrueBrain: how should andythenorth test patches for bananas?
12:30<TrueBrain>not; BaNaNaS should be considered dead
12:30<TrueBrain>and only be used to study
12:30<TrueBrain>making patches for it is silly
12:30<Ammler>you think, someone should start from scratch?
12:31<@Yexo>why should someone start from scratch if there already is a codebase available?
12:31-!-Juo [] has quit [Quit: Juo]
12:31<@Yexo>ie why would making patches for bananas be silly?
12:31<TrueBrain>I love that I have to say the same thing every 3 months or so :D :D :)
12:32<TrueBrain>BaNaNaS is poorly written
12:32<TrueBrain>and performance poorly
12:32<TrueBrain>reading the code would be identical to writing it from scratch
12:32<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: also if bananas in your eyes has a broken leg, that's no argument against people trying to provide a walking stick
12:32<TrueBrain>wirting from scratch in this case will be much better
12:32<TrueBrain>trust me, I wrote it :)
12:32<TrueBrain>it is nice to read it, and use it. But making patches will do more harm :)
12:32<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: you ask this way for others to make the same mistake(s) again
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12:32<TrueBrain>starting from scratch will give a much better platform :)
12:32<@planetmaker>and "will do more harm" is why a test environment is asked for
12:33<Ammler>well, andythenorth did you study the bananas source?
12:33<@Yexo>TrueBrain: you keep saying that (same for WT), but what exactly is so wrong with the current platform?
12:33<@Yexo>and will someone else who starts from scratch not make exactly the same mistake?
12:33<TrueBrain>Yexo: constraints changed
12:33<TrueBrain>a lot even
12:33<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: OpenTTD was also not re-written when transition from c -> c++ happend. what's different here?
12:33<TrueBrain>the whole database is poorly designed for what it has to be now
12:34<TrueBrain>ugh .. guys: I don't care what you do. My advise is: start from scratch. If you don't want to follwo that advice, I don't care (really, I don't. There is a reason this is open source)
12:34<TrueBrain>BaNaNaS is poorly designed
12:34<TrueBrain>it should be start from scratch, with a good design document
12:34<TrueBrain>with good goals
12:34<@planetmaker>you may know what and how things could work better. But others can learn probably a lot and see the limitations if they could test...
12:36<andythenorth>Ammler: I have read some of the bananas source
12:36<TrueBrain>let me just conclude with 3 things: 1) good luck setting up a dev-env (wish it was different, it isn't). 2) we are not going to make tons of minor database changes. 3) a from-scratch approach will be much easier for who-ever does this, as he is no longer bound by the constraints of the framework we created years ago
12:36<andythenorth>TrueBrain: what are the key performance issues?
12:36<TrueBrain>performance issues: non
12:37<TrueBrain>constraints: lots
12:37<TrueBrain>check out
12:37<TrueBrain>under Website
12:37<TrueBrain>few good topics with what is wrong
12:37<@planetmaker> <-- I'm reminded of this article, TrueBrain ;-)
12:38<TrueBrain>planetmaker: I am not a noob in software development. Trust me, if I say a from-scratch is better, it is. If you don't believe me ... feel free to find out :)
12:38<TrueBrain>again, I don't care. I am just giving you guys suggestions :)
12:38<andythenorth>TrueBrain: how 'big' is bananas
12:39<@Alberth>Yexo: WT needs generalizing to arbitrary newgrfs imho.
12:39<TrueBrain>it still makes me smile if I realise how abuse we are towards the used Python framework (django) :) So totally abused :p
12:39<@Yexo>there are currently 5 open bus in the BaNaNaS category. 1 of them seems to be a simple bug in the code (the tags one)
12:39<TrueBrain>andythenorth: size in what way?
12:39<@Yexo>3 of them are about dependencies
12:39<@Yexo>TrueBrain: is that the part where the constraints changed?
12:39<TrueBrain>andythenorth: few hunderd lines
12:39<TrueBrain>nothing fancy
12:39<andythenorth>number of complicated things depending on other complicated things?
12:39<TrueBrain>Yexo: the system was designed for something different than how it is used, yes :)
12:39<TrueBrain>I knew that after a month already :p
12:39<@Alberth>django is not the best framework for complex stuff it seems, judging from #python comments I read
12:40<TrueBrain>andythenorth: the only 'big' thing is the link to ottd_content
12:40<andythenorth>I have to learn pyramid
12:40<TrueBrain>Alberth: it really isn't :)
12:40<TrueBrain>if I could do it over, I would never use django :)
12:40<TrueBrain>it works for small sites
12:40<TrueBrain>for anything bigger ... omfg ...
12:40<andythenorth>TrueBrain: what would you use?
12:40<TrueBrain>Pylons tbh ..
12:40<TrueBrain>or even PHP :P
12:40<@Yexo>Alberth: wrt WT, I completely agree
12:40<TrueBrain>the biggest mistake in my opinion was the fact I thought more people could contribute
12:41<andythenorth>well I have to learn pyramid for 2 non-openttd projects
12:41<TrueBrain>with Django, only a handful know what the fuck they are doing :p
12:41<andythenorth>switching to pyramid is complete new system fallacy, but...whatever
12:41<TrueBrain>if it would have been PHP, problems would be solved so much quicker
12:41<@Yexo>TrueBrain: you're not exactly making it easy for other people to contribute either
12:41<TrueBrain>(then again, PHP is slow :p)
12:41<andythenorth>I can't even figure out how to patch :P
12:41<@orudge>Plus, you can write pretty elegant PHP these days
12:41<andythenorth>I'm used to having a buildout for the framework
12:41<@Yexo>some instructions on how to set up a local test environment would go a long way towards that
12:41<@orudge>well, I suppose you could in the past, but most people didn't ;)
12:41<TrueBrain>andythenorth: good luck with trying to get it to run :D I am terrified doing that again ...
12:42<andythenorth>I'm not going to bother
12:42<TrueBrain>Yexo: that is exactly the point. Django is not made for that, and I have no fucking clue
12:42<TrueBrain>orudge: haha, true there
12:42<@Yexo>ok, that definitely is a big problem than :)
12:42<TrueBrain>Yexo: and we still use django ancient. I am terrified of upgrading
12:42<TrueBrain>there is a reason I keep saying: rewrite over patching :p
12:43<@Yexo>now you're here: any updates on WT 3.1? Or is that also still in the planning stage
12:43<TrueBrain>if study doesn't consume my time, OpenDUNE does. So no progress what-so-ever
12:43<Zuu>I guess that's a problem with all frameworks, that they are hard to upgrade?
12:43<TrueBrain>Zuu: they are. And the amount of hacks we used didn't make it easier :)
12:43<@Yexo>fair enough
12:43<TrueBrain>we cheated so many times to get what we wanted :)
12:43<andythenorth>pyramid has awesome documentation, unusual for a python project :P
12:44<TrueBrain>andythenorth: take it from me, your first 5 projects will be terrible :D
12:44<andythenorth>I know :P
12:44<Zuu>So you'll get a basket full of bad fruit.
12:44<andythenorth>that's why I wouldn't mind if one of those was bananas, not software that has paying clients
12:44<TrueBrain>feel free :)
12:45<TrueBrain>ottd_content requires some tables to be in a certain state, but that is changable
12:45<TrueBrain>the rest is free, design-wise
12:48<TrueBrain>andythenorth: and regarding BaNaNaS, if you ever want to get some feedback on ideas and designs, just PM me. I can assist you as far as my memory streches regarding current implementation :)
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12:49<andythenorth>I would need a collaborator
12:49<andythenorth>my database design skills suck
12:49<SpComb>just use XML
12:50<andythenorth>of course :P
12:50<TrueBrain>names most of the things
12:51<TrueBrain>not sure if it is in there, but I believe there was also a demand that you could add a 'depend on' grf which auto-updates to newer versions or something .. can't really remember, not always paying attention :)
12:52<SpComb>great thing about Python web frameworks is there are so many to choose from
12:52<SpComb>the annoying thing about ..
12:53<andythenorth>that's why pylons and repoze.bfg were merged
12:53<TrueBrain>andythenorth: also, I wrote BaNaNaS I believe in 1 or 2 days. To give another idea of 'big'
12:53*SpComb preferrs werkzeug
12:53<TrueBrain>Pylons merged with like 5 other projects :p
12:53<SpComb>one step up from stdlib cgi
12:53<andythenorth>I haven't used django
12:54<andythenorth>grok is odd
12:54<andythenorth>zope is overkill
12:54<andythenorth>plone is a monster
12:54<TrueBrain>RoR is worse :D
12:55<andythenorth>TrueBrain: is the performance particularly an issue?
12:55<andythenorth>seems bananas doesn't need to do many write?
12:56<andythenorth>quite a lot of reads
12:56<TrueBrain>speed-wise, there are no issues at all
12:56<andythenorth>not many complex queries
12:56<TrueBrain>everything is fast and speedy
12:56*andythenorth ponders using zodb
12:56<TrueBrain>the complexity of BaNaNaS is not in the frontend, it is in the uploading tbh :)
12:57<TrueBrain>things have to depend on eachother, more people want to contribute, blabla :)
12:57<Zuu>Possible also in the variety of actions that it need to support for uploaders.
12:57<Zuu>Eg. selection of old libraries as dependencies etc.
12:57<TrueBrain>and give these dudes 10 minutes, and you have a long long long long list :D
12:58<andythenorth>meh to that
12:58<TrueBrain>AMQP can be nice for uploading :D
13:01<TrueBrain>bit over the top I guess
13:02<SpComb>we obviously need to write the web frontend in C
13:02<TrueBrain>always someone who can go over it :D
13:03<SpComb>people have done it!
13:03<SpComb>e.g. fossil
13:03<TrueBrain>some people are insane :P
13:04<SpComb>..and the coursework we did this spring
13:04<SpComb>#include "sqlite3.h"
13:07<TrueBrain>I learnt last year that I really dislike the Python language :p
13:07<TrueBrain>most noticable, the indentation
13:07<SpComb>invalid criticism, not accepted
13:07<SpComb>python's indentation is very flexible
13:08<SpComb>you can do very nice multi-line expressions
13:08<TrueBrain>makes code si fucking hard to read :(
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13:15<Ammler>rails would be a good framework, but there is no ruby coder
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13:16<TrueBrain>they all died out of crazyness :p
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13:18<Rubidium>isn't ruby for Japanese?
13:21<Ammler>well, anyway, if there is need for a stage server or whatever, just ping me :-)
13:21<Thorn_>ruby coders don't last long, at some point they all go off the rails
13:21<TrueBrain>nice one Thorn_ :D
13:22<Ammler>but rails would be so nice for openttd :-)
13:22<@orudge>I thought the aim was to rewrite it in something people know? ;)
13:23<@orudge>sounds like x86 assembler would be best
13:23<Ammler>orudge: that might be php only
13:23<TrueBrain>hmm ... a new design won't hurt either :D
13:23<@orudge>Ammler: which might not be such a bad thing :)
13:23*orudge is potentially going to play around this weekend with some ideas
13:23<@orudge>whether anything will come of them, I don't know, but we'll see
13:23<TrueBrain>I wouldn't mind PHP at this stage :)
13:23<@orudge>depends on how much I end up drinking tomorrow I suppose :P
13:23<Ammler>a merge of bananas and grfgrawler?
13:24<@orudge>no, no
13:24<TrueBrain>at least would give some continuity
13:24<@orudge>just potentially rewriting the main web site framework in PHP
13:24<@orudge>moving the web site to something sane would at least aid that idea ;)
13:25<@orudge>using something like Smarty would seem to be straightforward, well-known and a hell of a lot easier to administer than the current stuff :P
13:25<Ammler>there are just so many php frameworks
13:25<@orudge>well, yes
13:25<TrueBrain>orudge: nothing wrong with the templates tbh :)
13:25<Ammler>you will for sure chose the wrong
13:25<@orudge>TrueBrain: the templates themselves, no
13:25<@orudge>Ammler: maybe, but generally, picking one of the more popular ones seems to make sense, no?
13:25<TrueBrain>just PHP is so incredibly slow :(
13:25<TrueBrain>CakePHP or Prado :p
13:26*Zuu has coded some ruby, but not more than say 1000-2000 lines in total.
13:26<TrueBrain>Zuu: keep it that way :D
13:26<Zuu>It's nice, but python wins for its larger user base.
13:26<@orudge>TrueBrain: hmm, well, that can be improved, to some degree, with the likes of eAccelerator, and a decent FastCGI web server
13:26<@orudge>but yes, I guess it can be
13:26<@orudge>I should maybe get some dinner
13:26<Zuu>And all the development team issues with Ruby.
13:27<TrueBrain>what I like about RoR and django etc, is that they stay in memory, and have much shorter paths to travel
13:27<TrueBrain>PHP keeps booting up :p
13:27<@orudge>I guess there's always mod_php ;)
13:27<TrueBrain> works without caching (had to disable it :D)
13:27<TrueBrain>and still we can handle a slashdot :p
13:27<Rubidium>I'm not sure whether php really is an issue, but... it seems like most sites written in it use a global connection to the webserver
13:27<Rubidium>... which means all sites running there'll use the same connection :(
13:28<Zuu>Also most programs that has an API for extension support Python - not ruby.
13:28<@orudge>Rubidium: well, if you're using FastCGI, then it depends on how you set it up, really.
13:28<Ammler>Zuu: or REST
13:28<@orudge>if you're using mod_php, then everything runs under the Apache process (I don't think there's a mod_php for any other web servers these days, except maybe IIS)
13:28<Zuu>Ammler: REST?
13:28<@orudge>unless I'm confusing what you mean
13:28<Rubidium>orudge: might very well be, but I'm not that into webserver configuration
13:28<TrueBrain>orudge: ugh, lets not use apache :D
13:29<@orudge>TrueBrain: I'd really rather not :P
13:29<@orudge>I'm a lighttpd fan, but then I tend to use it in fairly simple configurations
13:29<@orudge>so I've never really encountered all these leaks and bugs you seem to have
13:29<TrueBrain>bigger sites more problems :)
13:29<TrueBrain>nginx works very well
13:30<TrueBrain>but ... we max out what we can deliver for mediawiki atm
13:30<Rubidium>yeah, that beast is obnoxious
13:30<TrueBrain>I have some ideas for it thou ..
13:30<Ammler>Zuu: or is that just api for rails?
13:30<TrueBrain>but that requires ... 'other things' to happen first :p
13:30<TrueBrain>REST is a design principle
13:30<TrueBrain>build on HTTP/1.1 protocol
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>why don't these things ever have google-able names
13:31<Rubidium>anyhow, for whoever who wants to change bananas... please keep the columns of the tables that the content server uses the same ;)
13:31<Ammler>orudge: isn't lightly also going to die?
13:32<@orudge>Amis: is it?
13:32<TrueBrain>Rubidium: well, that also might use some refactoring ;) :D
13:32<SpComb>lighty died a while ago
13:32<Amis>orudge, misstab?
13:32<@orudge>Amis: quite
13:32<@orudge>Ammler: is it?
13:32<Ammler>orudge: last release somewhen last year :-)
13:32<TrueBrain>August 22nd, 2010
13:32<TrueBrain>nuff said
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>mis-stabs are evil :p
13:33<SpComb>and no bugfixes/features for ages during that year either
13:33<SpComb>it's dead
13:33<TrueBrain> <- good alternative for the more complex work
13:33<TrueBrain>for simple work, nginx rules
13:33<Ammler>people go back to apache or switch to nginx
13:33<TrueBrain>almost no memory, very fast, very consistent
13:34<SpComb>missing CGI annoyed me a little with nginx
13:34<andythenorth>Ammler: can we afford the memory ruby needs? Seems to need as much as plone
13:34<Ammler>SpComb uwsgi for pyhton
13:35<Rubidium>TrueBrain: I think the contentserver side is quite fine; I don't see what major refactoring would be needed in it
13:35<Ammler>andythenorth: devzone needs around 700MB
13:35<andythenorth>many projects have ditched RoR
13:35<Ammler>but that is with all the vcs too
13:35<TrueBrain>Rubidium: something about stats? :)
13:36<TrueBrain>yeah, sadly RoR is slowly fading
13:36<andythenorth>anyway, if *someone* wants to collaborate with me *and* use python...I'll have a go
13:36<TrueBrain>andythenorth: you don't like PHP? :D
13:36<Rubidium>TrueBrain: hmm, true... though that might be better done in a script running e.g. daily
13:37<Ammler>andythenorth: you can have a fresh vps with the distro of your choice
13:37<andythenorth>complex answer: no I don't like php, but my opinion is not valid
13:37<andythenorth>short answer: no
13:37<TrueBrain>Rubidium: yeah, but remember the document we wrote ... a year ago, about new way of colelcting stats? :)
13:37<TrueBrain>required some refactoring in some tables ottd_ uses :)
13:37*andythenorth would sack the tags personally
13:38<andythenorth>and just rely on authors writing good descriptions, then text search those
13:38<TrueBrain>andythenorth: in all honesty, but that is just me speaking, I am very unsure about Python for OpenTTD. We have this website now for .. 5 years? Not a single person outside me or Rubidium has ever written a patch for it as far as I know. Then people can complain about the lack of availability etc, but you are the first (!) person to ask how to set it up himself
13:38<andythenorth>if anyone wanted to switch to PHP, there would be much more support
13:38<andythenorth>but I wouldn't work on it
13:38<TrueBrain>the tags are, in my opinion again, a missed try. We wanted to get them to use, but as far as I can see, they aren't really used :) It was nice if it would have worked, but it doesn't seem to work :)
13:38<Rubidium>though I rather keep the content server as trivial as possible and do the difficult "splitting" bit in an external script
13:39<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I agree :)
13:39<andythenorth>bananas should be switched to wordpress
13:39<andythenorth>that would do it
13:39<Rubidium>like there's a script that parses the httpd-logs into a the binary statistics
13:39<TrueBrain>Rubidium: not a bad idea, to make ottd_content write a log file of access
13:39<TrueBrain>and parse that
13:39<TrueBrain>instead of writing to mysql
13:40<TrueBrain>might also be nice for masterserver
13:40<TrueBrain>to get some idea about MP usage etc
13:40<Rubidium>true, though then the "download" stats per newgrf aren't live anymore
13:40<Zuu>Hmm, maybe it would help to get more support if no framework is used?
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13:40<Rubidium>TrueBrain: updater is better suited for statistics gathering
13:40<TrueBrain>Rubidium: true; but do we really want that?
13:41<TrueBrain>the UPDATE downloads+=1 is pretty expensive
13:41<TrueBrain>and of course the content service is _much_ more used then initial estimated :)
13:43<TrueBrain>regarding frontpage, I leave it to the other developer to pick that direction. Go back to PHP, or keep rowing in Python :)
13:43<Zuu>Sounds like classical traffic theory. When access is easier, more people will use it.
13:43<TrueBrain>Zuu: and the more dangerous it becomes that it gets out of control :D But yes :)
13:44<TrueBrain>on a month I still get a lot of emails from people asking for help regarding OpenTTD or the CF. Nobody ever mailed me how to setup the website :p Says a lot about how unknown many people are with django I guess :)
13:45<@peter1138>why would anyone else want to set up the website?
13:45<TrueBrain>for development, for one
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: translators * r22533 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt czech.txt):
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: catalan - 2 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: czech - 3 changes by rala
13:45<TrueBrain>and in the past we had people setting up the server-page only on their own master server
13:45<@peter1138>yeah but nobody does that
13:45<TrueBrain>in LAN parties and stuff
13:45<@peter1138>it's always someone...
13:45<TrueBrain>was really funny :p
13:45<@peter1138>funny ?
13:46<TrueBrain>that people do that? Yes!
13:46<TrueBrain>OpenTTD on LAN parties? That is just epic
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13:47<__ln__>When there's OpenTTD, what else could people possibly need on a LAN party.
13:48<Thorn_>I can only imagine bearded stoners sitting for hours on end passing the joint and competing over bus routes
13:48<andythenorth>no framework == make your own accounts, your own acls, your own template language
13:48<andythenorth>your own dispatcher, error framework
13:48<andythenorth>request handler, database connectors
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>what does "stoner" have to do with either "lan party" or "openttd"?
13:49*Rubidium knows only one nutter who ran a masterserver on his own server and had a reasonable amount of servers registered to it
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>does his name start with an l?
13:49<TrueBrain>Rubidium: you? :p
13:49<@Terkhen>heh, there were alternative master servers?
13:50<TrueBrain>andythenorth: yeah, you need some kind of framework. That I also miss in PHP: an ORM
13:50<TrueBrain>I loved that about django (and also about Pylons, SQLAlchemy etc)
13:50<Thorn_>Eddi|zuHause: It comes by definition of openttd at a lan party.
13:50<Rubidium>TrueBrain: wins the Amazon cookie!
13:50<TrueBrain>you also cheated :D
13:51<TrueBrain>still more servers than clients
13:51<TrueBrain>guess some things never change
13:51<TrueBrain>no more 0.4.8 servers :p
13:51<TrueBrain>although a 0.6.3 server
13:51<TrueBrain>euh, 0.6.2
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>that's probably not going to change. the real question is: did the number of clients increase?
13:52<TrueBrain>we don't have those statistics, sadly enough
13:52<TrueBrain>that is why I love the logging :)
13:52<Zuu>Perhaps someone shall make the code changes so that you can run a client that seeks up servers, joins and run a random/selected AI.
13:52<Zuu>Then, we could get up the client count :-)
13:52<TrueBrain>Zuu: you mean those 5 lines of code? :p
13:52<Zuu>At least until the server-people do the same thing.
13:52<@planetmaker>[19:40] Rubidium true, though then the "download" stats per newgrf aren't live anymore <-- via some cronjob they could be somewhat live. Like daily, 6hour-ly or so. That's enough
13:53<Zuu>TrueBrain: Would also need some lines of code to automate it so you never need to pick servers yourself and just leave it on for days :-)
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>i thought the masterserver-updater already runs as cronjob and that was the entire point to move it there
13:54*andythenorth reads bananas source to try and grok it
13:54<TrueBrain>the only cronjob it runs is a cleanup of the database :p
13:54<TrueBrain>to remove old servers
13:54<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: they're two dedicated daemons
13:54<TrueBrain>(if that script still runs :D)
13:54<andythenorth>so the website and bananas are the same app?
13:54<TrueBrain>both django, yes
13:54<TrueBrain>1 project, multiple apps
13:55<andythenorth>TrueBrain: so I only need to read what's in /bananas
13:55<andythenorth>that's way simpler :P
13:55<TrueBrain>although it heavily depends on django and the hacks we made for it in / :D
13:55<TrueBrain>yeah, bananas is not that big
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>speaking of cronjobs: is there a way to tell my crontab to treat a specific line as utc when my system is actually in ce(s)t?
13:56<andythenorth>is bananas one monolithic thing? I.e. does it handle admin interface + API for openttd?
13:56<Rubidium>and... if possible, does the reverse work as well?
13:56<Rubidium>andythenorth: API for OpenTTD is a separate daemon
13:57<Rubidium>to be found in ^/extra/masterserver_updater
13:57<andythenorth>Rubidium: so it reads the mysql tables?
13:57<andythenorth>is there any other caching etc? or I should read the code?
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13:58<Rubidium>andythenorth: it has no caching whatsoever
13:58<Rubidium>(the daemon that is)
13:59<Rubidium>there is some caching-ish related code, though that's related to the binaries on the webserver as those are only mirrored out occasionally
14:00<Rubidium>(after each binary build that ends up on
14:00<TrueBrain>we wrote too complex systems :D
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>bah... i got this thor thingy (syfy production, not the movie), but it's totally stupid
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>if A-Movies are high budget ones, B-Movies are low budget ones, C-Movies are zero-budget knockoffs and D-Movies are pornos, then this is an E-Movie.
14:09<SpComb>they pay you to watch it?
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>i should sue them for compensation ;)
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>lost time and bandwidth :p
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14:39<ZirconiumX>hello all
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14:43<Amis>Is it possible that sometimes prospecting indusrty fails?
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that is intended
14:45<Amis>Yaay for throwing out 4 million euros x.x
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>not every time you tell people "go find oil" they actually find any
14:46<Ammler>but the chance to find is quite high in openttd
14:47<Amis>Not if you are playing with islands
14:51<Ammler>well, you can change the setting and fund those
14:52<@Alberth>oilrigs should work quite well with islands :)
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15:14<@planetmaker>Rubidium: the master server doesn't know these 12 NewGRFs:
15:15<@planetmaker>provided my grep, cut and sed orgy didn't fail anywhere
15:15<Rubidium>uk waypoints exists
15:16<Rubidium>ffffffff seems like a bogus grf of some sorts
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15:16<@planetmaker>by name yes. The grfID there is bogus. Only 7 characters. That's why
15:16<@planetmaker>cutting that out and the FFFFFFFF leaves 9
15:17<Rubidium>no, the uk waypoints one is 8 long and matches perfectly
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15:17<Rubidium>the grfid is the one above the name, not below it
15:18<Rubidium>how many entries are in grfcrawler?
15:18<CIA-11>OpenTTD: yexo * r22534 /trunk/src/ai/ (ai_config.cpp ai_config.hpp ai_core.cpp): -Fix [FS#4631] (r21250): doing rescan_ai in a game with running AIs caused a crash
15:19<@planetmaker>right. I copied the wrong lines when grepping for the 7-thing entry. There are 248 entries which have a somewhat reasonable grfID
15:19<Rubidium>somewhat reasonable?
15:19<@planetmaker>two which are not that format, DW xy, which is one of the DWE things, OG+4 is one of mine and 34 is no grfID
15:20<Rubidium>you mean the rest is non-hexian garbage
15:20<@planetmaker>and empty is no grfID either
15:20<Rubidium>@calc 10/248
15:20<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 0.0403225806452
15:20<Rubidium>@calc 10/248*100
15:20<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 4.03225806452
15:21<@planetmaker>the total number of entries is slightly above 300, including those w/o grfID. Which are quite a few
15:21<Rubidium>so 4% chance of a NewGRF from grfcrawler not being known by the server
15:21<@planetmaker>somewhat, yes
15:21<@planetmaker>which is as good as 100% :-P
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15:22<Rubidium>@calc 10/800
15:22<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 0.0125
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15:23<Rubidium>and a 1.25% chance of a NewGRF not being known in general
15:23<Rubidium>by the server
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15:25<Rubidium>you might want to consider the first 4 nibbles
15:25<@planetmaker>as authorID?
15:25<Rubidium>293 unique ones in the master server's list
15:26<Rubidium>so with those added ~300
15:26<Rubidium>which means 0.5% of the available author ids has been used
15:27<@planetmaker>He, indeed even I used mine once
15:28<@planetmaker>but for most... OG+ ;-)
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15:28<@planetmaker>which hardly is an author
15:32<frosch123>wow, the logs of this channel have not been so interesting for long :)
15:33<frosch123>what's the "DBSextXL Extension"? :p
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>i have no clue...
15:36<frosch123>it's also amazing how many grfs are on the list, which were already deprecated before ottd existed :o
15:37<Rubidium>I guess they're on the frontpage of ttdpatch or something ;)
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>you mean the one that says "TTDPatch 2.0 rev 1 Released"? :p
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15:42<frosch123>Rubidium: even the ttdp front page has only dbset 0.5
15:42<@Yexo>0.5? not even 0.8?
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>it has both
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>0.5 and 0.82
15:43<frosch123>the list contains a dbset 0.3 and even a dbset without version number
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>because 0.82 is not 2.0 compatible, only 2.5-beta
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15:46<Rubidium>see... that's the reason dbsetxl isn't on bananas...
15:47<Rubidium>the "standards" platform doesn't have a stable release yet
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16:01*andythenorth wonders about spec for bananas v2
16:02<@Terkhen>IIRC LordAro was working on readme display ingame, I guess you should make sure that the readme files follow some common rules
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>am i the only one who thinks "andy's spec" is an oxymoron? :p
16:03<@Alberth>Terkhen: /is/ working on it, afaik :)
16:03<@Terkhen>cool :)
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i meant if you take the FIRS cargo spec as example :p
16:05<andythenorth>in that case we apply 'the code *is* the spec' :D
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16:08<frosch123> <- i like the "i cannot use the bug tracker ..." - "please use the bug tracker"
16:10<@planetmaker>:-D Yes, I'm guilty
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>i found that odd as well :p
16:11<andythenorth>bananas is not much code
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>that's what he said
16:11<andythenorth>but presumably depends on account function for ottd website
16:12<andythenorth>TrueBrain: how is authentication handled for openttd? Is it per-domain?
16:15<Rubidium>there's a ldap server
16:16<andythenorth>a better question might be: would a rewrite of bananas have to also handle authentication? Or is that handed elsewhere?
16:16<frosch123>the authentication is the same as for webtranslator
16:17<frosch123>you only need to login once, don't you?
16:18*andythenorth is trying to figure out how accounts would be shared or use groups, as requested on FS
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>you have a many-to-many relation between grf-id and author-accounts
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16:21<andythenorth>but it gets complicated
16:22<andythenorth>if there are two user roles then permissions have to be checked in more depth
16:24<Rubidium>do we want two user roles?
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16:30<andythenorth>I would hope not
16:30<andythenorth>I am reading the feature requests :P
16:30<andythenorth>user roles slows everything down
16:31<andythenorth>means fine-grained acls are needed
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>"Austria better team, Germany wins 2:1, Germans shoot all goals" ... something is wrong :p
16:32<andythenorth>feature requests for bananas?
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>apparently, a bananas-grfcrawler-hybrid is needed
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. categories, searchable website, ...
16:40<andythenorth>I think exactly that
16:40<V453000>good point
16:41<andythenorth>grf categories mostly map to types in nfo spec?
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16:41<CIA-11>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22535 /trunk/src/table/sprites.h: -Cleanup: Remove uneeded constants, update and unify some comments relating to sprite numbers
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>yes, roughly
16:41<@Terkhen>I think so: landscape, industries, trains, road vehicles, rail types
16:42<@Terkhen>also the current ones; heightmaps, scenarios, AIs, AI libraries
16:42<@planetmaker>base costs
16:42<@planetmaker>misc ;-)
16:42<@planetmaker>base sets
16:42<andythenorth>in the FS there is discussion about dependencies
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>vehicles (road, rail, plane, ship), infrastructure (road, rail, stations, airports), landscape (terrain, objects)
16:42<andythenorth>dependencies scare me
16:43<frosch123>and "monolithical" for stuff containing more than one thing
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>AIs already have dependencies
16:43<andythenorth>frosch123: I should split HEQS?? :P
16:43<TWerkhoven>nah, just have grf's listed in any category that applies
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i only ever used the trams of HEQS
16:43<TWerkhoven>so if a grf has rv's and trains, list them in both
16:44<frosch123>andythenorth: i found an option to disable some weird trains
16:44<@Terkhen>I use the HEQS trams a lot :P
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: oh, and the Gmund Mog (both versions) :)
16:44<@Terkhen>I have never used the rail Gmund Mog though
16:45<andythenorth>dependencies scare me :P
16:45<andythenorth>how does / would openttd work with them?
16:45<andythenorth>does it fetch all deps?
16:47<andythenorth>is that already handled?
16:48<andythenorth>is it handled for AI only, or in general?
16:50<@Yexo>in general
16:50<@Terkhen>I have seen dependencies only in AIs, but I guess they are handled in general
16:50<andythenorth>does that extend to newgrf window?
16:50<@Yexo>scenario's can have dependencies on grfs
16:50<andythenorth>i.e. if foo.grf depends on bar.grf
16:51<@Yexo>no, just the online content window
16:51<andythenorth>and there's no way for user to know about deps in game?
16:51<andythenorth>apart from they get downloaded by content service
16:51<@Yexo>that is not something the content service should handle
16:51<frosch123>there is some av8 extension set that pulls av8
16:51<@Yexo>for scenarios the user can see the grfs that are needed in the load dialog
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>the grf can still use action B to tell the user
16:52<@Yexo>NewGRFs can disable themself if their dependency is not loaded
16:52<andythenorth>so it's responsibility of newgrf? - fine by me
16:52<@Yexo>AIs will most likely just fail to compile/start if an AI library they need is not available
16:52<@Yexo>andythenorth: at runtime yes, but the content server needs to make sure that the dependencies are downloaded
16:57*andythenorth wonders what's actually wrong with bananas code
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17:00<josepr83>%ithe content server needs to make sure that the dependencies are downloaded%i
17:01<josepr83>is that hard to implement?
17:01<@planetmaker>it is implemented...
17:04<josepr83>okay. So, when you download the grf/scens etc. via content download system, their deps will actually get downloaded, or just prompt the user?
17:04<@Yexo>try to select the av8 addon in the online content window
17:04<@Yexo>av8 will also get selected automatically
17:04<@Terkhen>josepr83: it is implemented, try it with some AI that uses libraries or that av8 addon :P
17:04<@Yexo>same happens if you select any AI that uses libraries
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17:05<Eddi|zuHause>something that is bad with ingame bananas handling: after updating a grf, i have to manually edit all presets, because those are set by filename, which is different, since it contains the version
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17:06<josepr83>So, preset handling should be done by the grf name string inside the file, rather than filename?
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>or after download finished, presets should automatically be updated
17:08<josepr83>Or there should be an update presets option, so that the user can decide when to update.
17:08*andythenorth wonders if rewriting bananas from scratch is tmwftlb
17:09<andythenorth>TrueBrain: what's so bad about the existing codebase?
17:09<andythenorth>when I read it, I see nothing horrible
17:10<TrueBrain>setting up the site won't be .. easy :) (so development is hard) This is the general problem with OpenTTD website atm
17:10<TrueBrain>for the rest, the database design assumed an approach which is invalid
17:10<TrueBrain>so it needs redesign, or at least a huge tuning
17:10<andythenorth>so the issue isn't the views?
17:10<TrueBrain>the code that handles file uploading fails a lot
17:11<andythenorth>it has a *lot* of if-else :P
17:11<TrueBrain>completely unreadable
17:11<TrueBrain>needs refactoring
17:12<andythenorth>is it just un-pretty? Or actually flakey?
17:12<TrueBrain>it makes mistakes
17:12<TrueBrain>untracable mistakes :p
17:14*andythenorth doesn't know what would be best
17:14<andythenorth>- leave bananas alone - tmwftlb
17:15<andythenorth>- rebuild 1:1 in new framework (not django)
17:15<andythenorth>- rebuild 1:1 in django, but cleaner
17:15<andythenorth>- rebuild entirely with redesigned features etc
17:15<andythenorth>the last option is worst :P
17:18<TrueBrain>I think second is best for OpenTTD as a whole
17:19<andythenorth>so initially keep identical feature set, GUI etc
17:19<andythenorth>but reimplement
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17:19*andythenorth wonders if wordpress really would be best way to do it
17:20<andythenorth>I am no wordpress fan, but it has achieved WIN
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17:20<TrueBrain>its asking for tons of exploits
17:20<andythenorth>apparently WP 3 has solved that
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17:21*andythenorth dislikes WP for numerous minor reasons
17:21<TrueBrain>they have 'solved' all exploits?
17:21<TrueBrain>lol :)
17:21<andythenorth>it has a massive developer base
17:21<andythenorth>working on it all the time
17:21<andythenorth>to add new exploits :P
17:21<TrueBrain>and you also need to update so frequently :p
17:21<TrueBrain>so no, I personally don't like that :)
17:22<andythenorth>there is no other common framework apart from Drupal
17:22<andythenorth>how about Drupal?
17:22<andythenorth>common = many people who can hack at it
17:23<andythenorth>it would mean finding someone who can code drupal :P
17:24<frosch123>"django" is still the nicest name of the stuff you mentioned
17:25*andythenorth wants to do it with pyramid
17:25<andythenorth>but not alone
17:27<josepr83>It’s small, documented, tested, extensible, fast, and friendly.
17:27<josepr83>That means a LOT
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>do we play buzzword-bingo?
17:28<andythenorth>we could
17:28<andythenorth>if you have a bingo car
17:28<@planetmaker>with buzzwords? always at hand
17:28<@planetmaker>much more fun in meetings though in the form of bullshit bingo
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>i had one for election-day-bingo once
17:29<@planetmaker>I spent some lectures with creating such bingo cards :-P
17:30<andythenorth>TrueBrain: would you recommend changing the mysql schema as well?
17:30<andythenorth>or could that be left untouched?
17:30<TrueBrain>I think you have to
17:30<TrueBrain>to work with a few new requirements
17:30<andythenorth>I would ignore new requirements initially
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17:31<Eddi|zuHause>key requirement for a replacement framework: easy setup of a testing system
17:32<andythenorth>testing what?
17:32<andythenorth>testing the framework? or a dev environment?
17:32<josepr83>Use the framework to test the framework?
17:32<@Yexo><andythenorth> I would ignore new requirements initially <- that means you're going to write a new system that fails for exactly the same reasons the current system fails
17:32<@Yexo>it would not be designed for everything is has to handle
17:33<andythenorth>Yexo: same argument could be said about FIRS port to nml :P
17:33<andythenorth>changing framework + features is a headache
17:33<josepr83>andythenorth: planetmaker is still here :P
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>dev environment is where you write your code, test environment is where you run it
17:34<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so a staging server?
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>whatever you call it
17:34<@Yexo>andythenorth: the firs port from nfo to nml was not because nml supports something nfo does not
17:34<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I think we mean same thing
17:34<@Yexo>it's to make maintenance in the future easier
17:35<andythenorth>this is why I am confused
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17:35<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: something where i can type "make" and then i have the page on localhost:80
17:35<andythenorth>what is the problem with bananas?
17:35<@Yexo>making the maintenance of bananas easier is not very useful as long as it doesn't support everything it has to
17:35<andythenorth>in that case we're stuck yes / no?
17:36<@Yexo>andythenorth: it needs a more extensive web interface (something more like grfcrawler has), it needs a better way to specify dependencies
17:36<@Yexo>you need to be able to select a dependency on an older version
17:36<TrueBrain>andythenorth: told you the list would grow fast :D
17:36<andythenorth>sounds like a spec is needed :)
17:36<andythenorth>I see the issue here
17:36<andythenorth>can't extend current codebase because it's hairy
17:36<@planetmaker>it needs proper user management as well
17:36<@planetmaker>or rather rights
17:37<andythenorth>can't move to a new codebase
17:37<@planetmaker>one to multi linking of project to user and vice versa
17:37<@Yexo>andythenorth: it can be moved to a new codebase, but that should only be done if the new codebase has advantages over the current one
17:37<TrueBrain>andythenorth: so you have to start somewhere; a rewrite of current stuff might be an approach :)
17:38<@Yexo>moving from the current implementation to one based on pyramid is useless if that pyramid implementation has the same limitations as the current one
17:38<andythenorth>it seems to be an unavoidable step in a migration
17:38<@Yexo>because every move has the potential to introduce more bugs
17:38<andythenorth>which is why features shouldn't change
17:39<@Yexo>it could be a first step to code that, but only if afterwards that codebase is extended to implement some new features
17:39<andythenorth>QA on something that is 1:1 same is just hard
17:39<@Yexo>only when that's done it would be useful to switch the live version imo
17:39<andythenorth>QA on something that also adds features is insanely hard
17:39<@Terkhen>good night
17:39<andythenorth>bye Terkhen
17:39<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you wouldn't get to just call make
17:40<andythenorth>but maybe three lines
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i meant apart from installing the dependencies
17:41<andythenorth>you shouldn't have to do much of that hopefully :P
17:41<andythenorth>although I don't know if mysql is easy to provide
17:43<andythenorth>starting the server would be something like: ./bin/paster serve etc/paste.ini
17:44*andythenorth will sleep on it and see what happens
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18:06<__ln__>does someone remember seeing this Deutsche Bahn commercial on tv:
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember all commercial spots of the last 20 years
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>the pictures do ring some bells, but i'm not really sure
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18:09<__ln__>it was in finnish, subtitled in german... which might be a bit exceptional on german tv, i suppose.
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18:12<__ln__>anyway, i've been trying to locate that ad on youtube and other sources, but unsuccessfully
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18:19<Eddi|zuHause>do you have a timeframe?
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18:25<__ln__>something like 1992..1995
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18:28<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: is that it? i can't seem to open it, though.
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18:30<__ln__>yeah, that's it, but the .ram merely points to some other pnm:// url and address, which has probably been down for years.
18:31<Eddi|zuHause> <- ?
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>just a matter of the right search words ;)
18:32<__ln__>perfect, that's the one, thank you
18:33<__ln__>i apparently failed with my search words
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't seem to be the complete clip, though
18:37<__ln__>yes, it starts in the middle of a sentence, and as far as i remember there was a second part where the guy says "i just remembered that .... blabla" and adds something
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>i can't find another version, though
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---Logclosed Sat Jun 04 00:00:32 2011