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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-06-04

---Logopened Sat Jun 04 00:00:32 2011
00:46<@Terkhen>good morning
00:49<Rubidium>moin Terkhen
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01:41<@planetmaker>moin
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02:20<pikka>ew
02:20<@Terkhen>hi pikka
02:21<pikka>hello
02:21-!-andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd
02:21<pikka>hello andy
02:22<andythenorth>hello mr bird
02:22<pikka>McDonald's is always a bad idea :l
02:22<andythenorth>long time no sea
02:22<andythenorth>pikka: mcdonald's always is
02:22<andythenorth>miss millie's less so
02:22<pikka>fishhhh
02:22<andythenorth>and chips
02:23<pikka>I don't even know what miss millies is
02:23<andythenorth>this is what the internet was made for
02:23<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_Millie's_Fried_Chicken
02:24<pikka>all I know is I'm in the depths of the qsbs eating McDonald's
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02:24<pikka>and it is revolting
02:24<andythenorth>you're inside a qualified small business stock? :o
02:25<@Terkhen>that looks like a KFC, except that it's not from Kentucky :P
02:25<pikka>no, I'm inside the 3rd ghit
02:25<andythenorth>pikka: may we discuss newgrfs?
02:26<pikka>certainment
02:26<andythenorth>how goes ukrs 2 addons?
02:27<pikka>I was looking at them just the other day
02:27<pikka>I think that might.be my next.priority
02:27<pikka>with additional punctuation
02:27<andythenorth>that would be nice.nice
02:28<pikka>yas
02:28<andythenorth>I _might_ start a truck set soon
02:28<andythenorth>may I borrow HOVS graphics to get it started?
02:28<pikka>uhoh
02:28<pikka>sure
02:28<pikka>although give is largely original ttd
02:29<pikka>hovs
02:29<andythenorth>ok
02:29<andythenorth>I think RVs should be a bit smaller than default
02:30<pikka>yes
02:30<pikka>especially compared to ukrs2
02:31<andythenorth>should RV capacity be bigger or smaller than RL, for gameplay purposes?
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02:32<@planetmaker>hey ho. pikka something I thought the other day, as an idea:
02:32<pikka>for gameplay porpoises I'd stick with typical = 30, as with trains
02:33<@planetmaker>your trainsets - for me - start to reach the borderline of 'too many vehicles'
02:33<@planetmaker>what about a parameter "all" and "minimal subset" where the latter would enable one vehicle per time for each "task" (like heavy fright or express, possibly later also MU)
02:34<pikka>possibly, planetmaker
02:34<pikka>although I think ukrs2 is already reasonably streamlined
02:34<@planetmaker>but maybe that's just me as I always play with 'never expire'. I didn't quite test it without that setting. I play so slowly that it's boring without and I'd not get to see 90% of vehicles when I have vehicles expire
02:35<pikka>nars is pretty overloaded with samey diesel but don't blame me for that :p
02:35<@planetmaker>:-P
02:36<@planetmaker>note that I don't say "there are too many". But I have the feeling there'll be, if more is added :-)
02:36<pikka>I have had plans for very small (ie 6-10 locos) sets, for multiplayer featuring multiple balanced sets
02:37<pikka>but that's not come to anything yet
02:37<@planetmaker>sounds like a idea worth persuing or at least testing how it fares
02:38<pikka>what would be nice for that, hint hint, is a callback for populating the purchase list
02:38<pikka>so that certain players could be limited to certain sets
02:38<andythenorth>action 7, climate setting :P
02:39<pikka>callback Andy :p
02:39<pikka>I should make a wishlist thread like yours :p
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02:39<andythenorth>just add to it :P
02:39<@planetmaker>:-)
02:39<andythenorth>it is (slowly) effective
02:40<andythenorth>or I realise an idea is stupid :P
02:40<andythenorth>like 'fords'
02:41<pikka>:)
02:41<@planetmaker>anyway, I'm off for today, Enjoy it :-)
02:41<pikka>roadtypes!
02:41<pikka>Gnight planet
02:42*pikka waiting for a bus
02:43<andythenorth>pikka: did you try a game with YACD?
02:43<pikka>not yet, it sounds very promising though
02:43<andythenorth>needs more small things
02:44<andythenorth>i.e small engines
02:44<pikka>did you see the norseman? :p
02:44<pikka>needs newairports though
02:45<andythenorth>everything seems to need newairports
02:45<andythenorth>:P
02:45<andythenorth>newairports needs newairports
02:46<pikka>yep
02:46<pikka>newairports will really make things happen with av8 :)
02:50<@peter1138>peeeka :D
02:51<andythenorth>pita
02:51<pikka>harro
02:57<pikka>nearly time for me to drive out of the city and back four and a half times
02:57<pikka>oh
02:58<pikka>only 3 and a half :D
02:59<pikka>talk to you gentlemen later :)
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03:03*andythenorth wonders what pikka is up to
03:03<andythenorth>back and forth, back and forth on a bus?
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03:22<andythenorth>Rubidium: any improve bananas should still use mySQL?
03:22<andythenorth>you don't want Yet Another Database Technology to support on the server?
03:28<@peter1138>mysql smells :(
03:29*andythenorth is happier with an object database
03:29<@peter1138>a what?
03:29<andythenorth>that's what most people say :P
03:29<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zope_Object_Database
03:30<andythenorth>for some things it's just easier
03:30<andythenorth>instead of SELECT foo FROM bar etc etc
03:30<andythenorth>you just do print bar.foo
03:31<andythenorth>for i in bar: print i
03:31<andythenorth>etc
03:31<andythenorth>for some cases it's very good
03:31<andythenorth>for others not
03:31<@peter1138>oh
03:31<@peter1138>well you can do that with an abstraction layer anyway
03:32<andythenorth>yes
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03:32<andythenorth>and you can also serialise objects and put them in a relational db if you need performance
03:32<@peter1138>serialise objects is not good for querying
03:32<@peter1138>+d
03:32<andythenorth>nope
03:33<andythenorth>but it can be good where you need to cluster to gain performance
03:33<Rubidium>andythenorth: how would you query for a particular subset of data then?
03:33<andythenorth>in an object database?
03:33<Rubidium>yes
03:33<andythenorth>for all objects of type bar, look at value for foo
03:33<andythenorth>it can suck
03:33<andythenorth>depends on scale + implementation
03:34<Rubidium>so it sucks for the content server, master server and updater
03:34<andythenorth>probably
03:34<Rubidium>oh, and it's python only?
03:35<Rubidium>so you'd have to write a number of daemons in python as well
03:35<andythenorth>that particular db is yes
03:35<andythenorth>ruled out?
03:35<Rubidium>and we'd still be running mysql for the bug tracker and wiki
03:36<andythenorth>yeah I figured this wouldn't be the route to go
03:36<andythenorth>not a problem, just means I have to lean more stuff
03:37<andythenorth>Rubidium: what version of mysql is being used currently?
03:38<Rubidium>5.0-ish
03:40<Rubidium>will become 5.1.49 in the future though
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03:42*andythenorth adjusts the amount of chocolate on the baby
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03:59<fjb>Moin
04:01<@Terkhen>hi fjb
04:01<fjb>Moin Terkhen
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05:00<andythenorth>how do I tell hg to remove untracked files from a repo?
05:00<andythenorth>I am googling, but new google is broken :
05:00<andythenorth>:P
05:01<@Terkhen>andythenorth: enable the purge extension, then "hg purge"
05:01<@Terkhen>hg purge --all removes even ignored files
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05:03<andythenorth>hmm
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05:03<andythenorth>excitingly, that has purged everything :P
05:03<andythenorth>including tracked files
05:03<andythenorth>maybe I forgot to commit
05:03<andythenorth>nvm
05:04*andythenorth starts again from scratch
05:05<@Terkhen>that's quite strange, I use purge all the time with added but not commited files and they never were deleted
05:05<@Terkhen>I have lost files that I forgot to add twice, though
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05:16<andythenorth>I didn't commit - that was the issue :P
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05:23<Wolf01>hello
05:23<@Alberth>hi
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05:58<Zuu>Anyone on Linux or Windows that would like to help me testing a new release of Junctioneer? Mostly I would be happy to know that the download packages work on computers without all development environments.
06:02<Zuu>(Junctioneer is a completely separete project to OpenTTD. It's a traffic intersection simulator)
06:08*andythenorth wonders at best way to share a hg repo that is local to my machine currently
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06:13<@Alberth>as in shared concurrent access, or just give a copy?
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06:24<@Alberth>in the latter case, just archive the directory
06:25<@Alberth>you can also use hg serve
06:26<andythenorth>as in just give a copy to one of you guys to test
06:27<@Alberth>you can even remove the checked-out copy of the files, not sure how though, perhaps a clone would work
06:31<andythenorth>would anyone mind testing a buildout of pyramid for me?
06:31<andythenorth>my plan is to try migrating bananas to it
06:31<andythenorth>but I need to know the buildout is viable first
06:33<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/bananas-2.zip
06:34<andythenorth>there's a readme in the archive
06:34<andythenorth>if it's not self-explanatory, that is problem #1 :P
06:34<andythenorth>only dependency is python 2.6 or more
06:35<@Terkhen>andythenorth: what do I need to do?
06:35<@Terkhen>follow the readme or not? :P
06:36<andythenorth>follow the readme
06:48<andythenorth>Terkhen: did you have chance to try that? ^
06:49<@Terkhen>andythenorth: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/251/
06:49<@Terkhen>sorry, I got distracted :)
06:49<andythenorth>interesting
06:49<andythenorth>what OS?
06:50<@Terkhen>linux 64 bits
06:50<@Terkhen>python 2.7.1
06:50<andythenorth>do you have any other python versions?
06:50<andythenorth>e.g. 2.6
06:51<Rubidium>Zuu: new release = 0.2.0? Then the linked libsdl doesn't work for me
06:51<@Terkhen>andythenorth: no
06:52<@Alberth>bootstrap has no --prefix to specify installdir or so?
06:53<Zuu>Rubidium: Yes the 0.2.0
06:53<andythenorth>Terkhen: it looks like a permissions problem
06:53<andythenorth>let me read about virtualenv
06:54<@Terkhen>I did not run it with sudo, but something like prefix would be great
06:55<Rubidium>Zuu: oh... 32 bits binary... that won't work for me
06:55<andythenorth>Terkhen: it would probably work with sudo
06:55<andythenorth>but I don't want to screw with your system
06:55<Zuu>Unfortunately I don't have a 64 bit environment at the moment.
06:56<Zuu>It wouldn't be hard to create, but I fear it is not just to type "make" and it will just work.
06:57<@Terkhen>andythenorth: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/252/ <-- it seems that it works with sudo
06:57<@Terkhen>I don't get why it needs sudo, though
06:57<andythenorth>well it's screwing with your system :P
06:57<andythenorth>so I guess it wants permission
06:57<andythenorth>I don't like this route, if I can figure out virtualenv, that's better
06:57<@Terkhen>ok
06:58<andythenorth>I don't seem to have or be able to install easily virtualenv though
06:58<@Terkhen>don't worry, this system needs a big cleanup anyways :)
06:58<andythenorth>Terkhen: can you try the rest of the steps?
06:58<@Terkhen>sure
06:58<andythenorth>the stuff bootstrap.py installs shouldn't do much harm to the system, it's basically distribute / setup tools
06:58<andythenorth>the stuff the buildout installs is localised anyway
06:59<Rubidium>no ipv6? :(
07:01<Rubidium>ah well, I guess it has to run via a proxy anyways
07:02<@Terkhen>andythenorth: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/253/
07:02<@Terkhen>should I try to run it?
07:02<andythenorth>worked
07:02<andythenorth>yes please
07:05<Zuu>Rubidium: Sorry for not being clear about the bit-ness, but thank you for highlighting that it is probably time that I look into adding 64bit support as I guess dual 32+64 bit libraries are not as common anymore as 5 years ago.
07:06<@Terkhen>andythenorth: Welcome to bananas, an application generated by the Pyramid web application development framework. <--- works
07:06<andythenorth>:)
07:07<andythenorth>so 64bit linux is ok
07:07*andythenorth wonders about windows
07:07<andythenorth>Terkhen: I don't like the sudo requirement
07:07<@Alberth>andythenorth: it's python
07:07<andythenorth>yes
07:07*Rubidium didn't need to sudo
07:07<@Terkhen>remind me later when I'm on windows, but I guess it will work
07:07<andythenorth>it should do
07:07<@Terkhen>I don't like using sudo either
07:08<@Alberth>Rubidium: perhaps you had already installed that egg?
07:08<andythenorth>for my next trick, I need to figure out how to build mysql if needed :P
07:08<andythenorth>this might be a headache
07:09<Rubidium>build mysql?
07:09<andythenorth>if you don't have it
07:09<Rubidium>oh... don't
07:09<Rubidium>just have it as requirement
07:09<andythenorth>that's lame :)
07:09<Rubidium>like you're not building python either...
07:09<andythenorth>there's a buildout recipe for mysql
07:10<@Alberth>linuces no doubt have a rpm or other package for it
07:11<Rubidium>oh, don't forget a buildout of gcc
07:11<Rubidium>as people might not have it
07:11<Rubidium>but it's required for mysql
07:12<andythenorth>:P
07:14*Rubidium wonders whether there's a C compiler advanced enough to bootstrap binutils and gcc, but written in python
07:15<@Alberth>you'd need JPython :D
07:15<Rubidium>sounds like it requires java
07:15<Rubidium>which you'd need to build as well
07:15<@Alberth>yep
07:16<andythenorth>is this a subtle way of saying "it's ok to have mysql as requirement" ? :P
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>the wooden-hammer kind of subtle :p
07:17<@Terkhen>:D
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>hm... how long does this usually take?
07:17<Rubidium>no, I'm just wondering how much of a development system you'd need to fetch to go from "a python only environment" to a compiled mysql
07:18<andythenorth>a lot :P
07:18<@Alberth>you could write the binutils in python first
07:18<andythenorth>unless the recipe just called your OS package manager :P
07:18<@Alberth>not portable to windows :p
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: am i understanding this correctly that this "only" needs a c-compiler written in python?
07:19<andythenorth>silly old windows
07:20<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: no idea exactly
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07:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: not sure what i am to make of this output: http://pastebin.com/SDG1ibuj
07:21<Rubidium>it needs at least a c compiler written in python, or at least "installable" by python without having to use a c compiler
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07:22<Eddi|zuHause>it shouldn't be too difficult to make one, if you don't care about optimising
07:23<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that probably worked
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>you need python, ply, a grammar, and a description of the binary format/machine code
07:23<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: does step 2 work?
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: downloading always takes a while
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07:25<andythenorth>yup
07:25<andythenorth>downloaded parts are usefully cached locally though
07:28<andythenorth>brrr
07:28<andythenorth>all pyramid tutorials refer to sqlite3
07:28<andythenorth>I have to figure out how to bind to mysql
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>and bananas is so big that it blows sqlite?
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>or is sqlite too vulnerable/slow/other?
07:29<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it's more that (afaik) mysql is current db
07:30<andythenorth>and asking Rubidium to support more dbs on production server is unfair
07:30<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: multiple concurrent modifiers of the same database
07:35<andythenorth>bbl
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08:08*andythenorth takes adventure into world of mysql
08:11<andythenorth>hmm
08:11<andythenorth>django apps can incrementally migrate to pyramid
08:12<andythenorth>if I can understand this, it might be win
08:12<andythenorth>http://docs.pylonsproject.org/projects/pyramid_cookbook/dev/porting.html
08:16<andythenorth>the downside is I can't test because there's no easy way to build the django environment :P
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08:20<andythenorth>hmm
08:20<andythenorth>I don't know the password for my local mysql :P
08:20<bodis>hello
08:34<@Alberth>hello
08:39<bodis>quick question
08:40<bodis>lets say you build a rail station in a town
08:40<bodis>it only picks up passengers and mail from a part it covers
08:40<bodis>is tehr ea way to get passengers and mail from the rest of the town to this rail station?
08:40<@Alberth>start a bus service
08:41<@Alberth>and transfer them to the station
08:41<@Alberth>read about feeder systems at the wiki
08:41<bodis>so then it will move mail to the rail station and you can then get the same mail through the trains?
08:41<bodis>k
08:41<@Alberth>for mail you need trucks, but the principle is the same
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08:42<bodis>thanks reading about the feeder now
08:42<@Alberth>your busstops will be overcrowded in no time however
08:42<bodis>how do you deal with that then?
08:43<@Alberth>another train station has a better chance, but even that may not be enough
08:43<@Alberth>I am not exactly sure whether it can be dealt with and/or how. I normally don't care to transport everybody
08:44<bodis>yep
08:44<bodis>thanks
08:44<@Alberth>I like cargoes much more :)
08:44<bodis>yeah same here :)
08:44<bodis>but that can be done the same way as well right?
08:44<@Alberth>but there are passengers reduction newgrfs that you can load
08:45<bodis>does it matter that not all passengers are transfered?
08:45<@Alberth>industry cargoes are even better in the sense that you less likely want traffic in both directions, which is a problem with standard openttd
08:46<@Alberth>not at all, just the station rating of your station counts, which is determined by regular servicing of the station, etc
08:46<@Alberth>for all the details, see the game mechanics wiki page on station ratings :)
08:46<bodis>k so it will have no bad effect if the station is full?
08:46<bodis>ok
08:46<bodis>thanks afk
08:46<@Alberth>no, on the contrary, your buses/trains will fill very quickly :)
08:47<@Alberth>it just looks awkward to have so many passengers in your station
08:47<@Alberth>people tend to want to have an empty station :)
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08:49<__ln__>http://imgur.com/gallery/FxS2Q
08:49*andythenorth has found his mysql install :P
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08:54<andythenorth>seems sqlalchemy is recommended a lot with pyramid
08:54<andythenorth>http://www.sqlalchemy.org/
08:56<andythenorth>although I think I could also ZMySQLDA which is simple-ish and old (stable) http://www.zope.org/Members/adustman/Products/ZMySQLDA
08:59<@Alberth>mysql is not generally recommend as being very good afaik :p
09:01<andythenorth>there's no way around that :P
09:02<@Alberth>you cannot use postgressql or so ?
09:02<andythenorth>only if we migrate openttd db to that first
09:02<@Alberth>(not that it matters much at this stage, probably :) )
09:03<andythenorth>using mysql is a whole world of stuff I have to figure out now :)
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09:06<Eddi|zuHause>easy migration between different databases would be a good test for a framework
09:07<andythenorth>sqlalchemy should support that
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>btw: this was the output of step 2: http://pastebin.com/ydB9vkQG
09:08<@Alberth>#python recommends oursql, one of the regulars there has written it
09:08<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: did you try step 3?
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>not yet
09:09<Rubidium>Alberth: guess it depends on the usage
09:09<andythenorth>http://packages.python.org/oursql/tutorial.html#use-with-orms
09:09<Rubidium>and it has certainly gotten more important-ish features over time
09:10*andythenorth can't decide if it's better or worse to use an orms
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09:10<andythenorth>http://www.sqlalchemy.org/docs/intro.html#id1
09:10<@Alberth>I would expect that usage patterns make a huge difference indeed
09:10<andythenorth>it makes for cleaner easier code, but is an extra concept to work with
09:10<andythenorth>my last comment wrt to orm
09:11<@Alberth>andythenorth: just pick something and use it, no use trying to figure out the best without having knowledge to decide on imho
09:11<andythenorth>indeed
09:12<andythenorth>I'm going to do a pyramid tutorial with sqlite3 first
09:12<andythenorth>otherwise I am *way* out of my depth
09:12<andythenorth>bear in mind I normally just write the gui
09:12<@Alberth>at worst you have to implement it again, which is good for the program :p
09:12<andythenorth>I could rewrite bananas in zope in about a day with better error handling, but you'd all hate it
09:13<andythenorth>and pointy sticks would be waved at me
09:13<andythenorth>and it would suck
09:13<@Alberth>not a good direction to take :p
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09:15<andythenorth>but it would work :D
09:17<@Alberth>can it work and suck at the same time? :o
09:17<Rubidium>am I understanding zope correctly that it can automagically export some data to a relational database?
09:18<andythenorth>it has adapters to various relational databases
09:18<andythenorth>but it's really *not* the way to go
09:19<andythenorth>been there, done that, paid down the technical debt :P
09:19*andythenorth has built more than one hybrid mysql+zodb app
09:19<andythenorth>headache
09:19<Ammler>for a start, I would extend current bananas, you can still work on a rewrite
09:20<andythenorth>I think we've established that's near impossible
09:20<andythenorth>as there is no dev environment
09:21<andythenorth>I could create a repeatable buildout for whatever django version + deps are needed
09:21<andythenorth>but that's a headache too
09:21<andythenorth>especially if django is in any way patched or such
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09:22<Rubidium>Ammler: please try to set up a bananas first
09:23<Ammler>I can't believe a pro like TrueBrain made such a bad job there ;-)
09:23<Ammler>did he never thought about that it might need updates?
09:24<@Alberth>more likely, django was not up to the job
09:24<andythenorth>maybe
09:24<andythenorth>the view on the interwebs seems to be that django is very capable, possibly a bit much so
09:25<@Alberth>you always find out such things afterwards :p
09:25<TrueBrain>Ammler: no, I like writing software for open source projects that can't get any updates :D Lol :p
09:25<andythenorth>bananas in principle looks like a very simple app, with a lot of condition-catching
09:25*andythenorth may regret that statement
09:25<Ammler>TrueBrain: exactly what I meant :-P
09:25<Rubidium>Ammler: as far as I can see the debugging kinda went away when LDAP was added
09:25<TrueBrain>for a long time it was no problem running a dev version. Somewhere along the line we did too much patching, and I dunno .. I am afraid touching it :D
09:25<TrueBrain>andythenorth: it is exactly that :D Only the list of conditions is HUGE :p
09:26<andythenorth>seems to be 80% of the actual code
09:26<TrueBrain>and django is a perfect framework, for small projects, or normal projects
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09:26<andythenorth>in some files, there are more imports than code :P
09:26<TrueBrain>we started with django in the time translations came up
09:27<TrueBrain>they admitted the initial implementation was bad :D
09:27<Ammler>and how can you be sure, if you start a rewrite, the same issue doesn't happen again?
09:27<TrueBrain>Ammler: how can you ever be sure of anything?
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09:27<Ammler>maybe you could also revive the Giraffe :-)
09:28<TrueBrain>lets put it differently, what are the choices: no real development setup, so patches will be guessing that need to be applied mostly in production
09:28<Ammler>or how that project was called
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>only normal people can do normal projects... :p
09:28<Rubidium>Ammler: attempt 1: implementing without much knowledge, attempt 2: implementing with *much* more knowledge
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>there can't possibly be a normal project around the internet :p
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09:29<andythenorth>Rubidium: if I do attempt 2, I think that's mapping us back to attempt 1 :P
09:29<TrueBrain>so first a design document of any kind would be needed
09:29<Rubidium>Ammler: e.g. path signals
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: attempt 3 should go into production.
09:29<TrueBrain>so you understand and know what should be done
09:29<Ammler>Rubidium: :-D we don't talk about that now
09:29<andythenorth>I think first I learn how to use pyramid with relational db
09:29<andythenorth>and routing
09:29-!-OwenS [~oshepherd@kamina.ldn1.uk.e43.eu] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net]
09:30<andythenorth>then we can talk design :P
09:30<Rubidium>but ask any of the developers who have implemented something for the second or third time before it's right
09:30<Ammler>TrueBrain: bitbucket used an additonal lib on top of django, maybe something like that could be useful?
09:30-!-OwenS [~oshepherd@2002:6d4a:c7b0::1] has joined #openttd
09:30<andythenorth>compare HEQS code to FISH
09:30<TrueBrain>Ammler: moar patchus!!
09:31<Ammler>https://bitbucket.org/jespern/django-piston/wiki/Home
09:31<TrueBrain>moar deps == moar fail :)
09:31<TrueBrain>django is not right for OpenTTD
09:34<TrueBrain>so yeah, andythenorth, take your time, read into what it is about, make a post where you ask for suggestion, collect it, make a nice suggestion as initial version, and go for it :)
09:34<andythenorth>;)
09:34<andythenorth>I might need a collaborator wrt database design
09:34<andythenorth>etc
09:35<andythenorth>as I am proven to suck at that
09:35<Ammler>and when you need server to play around, ping me :-)
09:35<andythenorth>might / will /s
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09:39<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22536 /trunk/src/network/core/tcp_admin.h: -Fix [FS#4632]: documentation omission regarding admin protocol
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10:15<andythenorth>woah
10:15<andythenorth>that's spooky
10:15<andythenorth>my pyramid tutorial is saving data to a sqlite3 db and I haven't configured any db connection :P
10:16<Rubidium>sqlite db == file on disk
10:17<andythenorth>hoo
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it uses a memory database by default?
10:17<andythenorth>wonder where that is on my filesystem
10:17<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: if it was a memory database, it wouldn't survive me killing the process?
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10:17<Ammler>either where your app is or in /tmp
10:18<Ammler>might be a config setting :-)
10:18<andythenorth>I'll just treat it as magic for now :P
10:18<Rubidium>andythenorth: it being a single file that can only be accessed by one application is somewhat difficult when multiple applications need to read and write to it
10:18<andythenorth>yup
10:18<andythenorth>this is just a tutorial :)
10:19<andythenorth>possibly a good way for me to figure out how to swap to mysql
10:19<andythenorth>as the rest of the app is then written
10:19<Rubidium>the question's also how well it works with changing data in the database that's not coming form itself
10:21<Ammler>shouldn't happen
10:21<Ammler>isn't api for such things?
10:22<andythenorth>hmm
10:22<andythenorth>the sqlite3 shell interface sucks :P
10:22<andythenorth>can't figure that out
10:22<Ammler>firefox has extension to browse sqlite
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>what's wrong with the sqlite shell?
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>it accepts sql. and gives you a table.
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>what else do you want?
10:24<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22537 /trunk/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Change [FS#3494]: replace the half small airport structure on the intercontinental airport with some grass
10:27*andythenorth finds the tutorial.db
10:28<andythenorth>less magic :P
10:28<andythenorth>this tutorial is a lot more fun than drawing pixels
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10:34<andythenorth>the next section is 'adding tests'
10:34<andythenorth>which obviously I'll skip :P
10:36<Rubidium>but you'll need loads of tests for the uploaded bananas files
10:37<andythenorth>I know :(
10:37<andythenorth>tests are...dull :P
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10:48<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22538 /trunk/src/airport_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4619]: possible crash when opening the airport build window for the first time
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10:54<Rubidium>what does ~0.7777 furlong per fortnight on average?
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10:57<andythenorth>the mid-atlantic fault?
10:57<andythenorth>magnetic pole?
10:57<andythenorth>glass?
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10:57<andythenorth>none of the above?
10:57<andythenorth>at least on of those four answers is correct :P
10:57<andythenorth>on / one s
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10:59<andythenorth>what's all this guest nick swapping?
10:59<andythenorth>is oftc doing this?
10:59<Rubidium>andythenorth: usually it's someone using (IIRC) the ghost command
11:00<Rubidium>andythenorth: the latter of the four is definitely correct, but now I wonder whether I should give you the opportunity to try again
11:01<Rubidium>although it'll take a while till the opportunity reaches you
11:02*andythenorth is baffled
11:02<andythenorth>and will learn about security and authentication instead
11:03<Rubidium>am I speaking too much in riddles?
11:04<andythenorth>perhaps
11:06<Rubidium>Opportunity, the little Mars rover, has been going at ~0.7777 furlog per fortnight over the last ~7.5 years
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11:07<andythenorth>ah
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11:07<andythenorth>maybe pikka will include that in his secret
11:20<frosch123>@calc 0.7777 * 1.0058/5/(24*14)
11:20<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 0.000465601583333
11:20<frosch123>about 46 cm/hour ?
11:21<Rubidium>yep
11:22<frosch123>that might be the speed of the shadow on a number of sundials
11:25<@Alberth>it did not move during the winter, too little power then
11:32*andythenorth wonders what to do next
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11:36<V453000>does anyone have a clue where to get Railway Arch 0.2.0 444EFF04 E9527F3E14BD6C64E3C6C88A98930BE7 ? cant seem to find it anywhere
11:39<@Terkhen>andythenorth: do you fancy writing a test newgrf for station var 0x69? :P
11:40<@Terkhen>hmm... or maybe some existing TTDPatch newgrf uses it already
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11:44<andythenorth>Terkhen: I'll look what it does
11:44<@Terkhen>ok :)
11:44<andythenorth>Terkhen: what's it needed for ?
11:45<andythenorth>I find that var odd :P
11:45<@Terkhen>having cargo acceptance stats for the few last months is useful for some variables at http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Town_Control
11:46<@Terkhen>the variable itself is not very interesting :)
11:46<andythenorth>I wonder if it can be patched into CHIPS for a test
11:47<andythenorth>what would you need to see from it?
11:48<@Terkhen>anything happening for each of the four possible return values
11:48<@Terkhen>I don't mind what :P
11:48<andythenorth>let me see if I can patch against CHIPS then
11:48<andythenorth>not sure
11:48<@Terkhen>whatever is easier for you
11:48<@Terkhen>ok :)
11:48<andythenorth>I've not written station nfo
11:48<andythenorth>yexo does it all :)
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11:52<frosch123>Terkhen: use the newgrf debug gui
11:53<@Terkhen>oh, it shows variables? :O
11:53<@Terkhen>ok, thanks :)
11:53<frosch123>well, and, i am very sure there is no public released grf which uses it
11:53<frosch123>else it would already be implemented
11:54<frosch123>Terkhen: you can click on the variables to enter 60+x parameters
11:54-!-fjb|mobile [~fjb@p5DDFE1AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:54<frosch123>though you won't be able to enter var100 values :)
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11:54<@Terkhen>that's awesome :)
11:54<frosch123>blame rb :p
11:55<@Terkhen>andythenorth: thanks, it seems that I can check it without a test :P
12:02<andythenorth>great
12:02<andythenorth>I was feeding the baby anyway
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12:03<@Terkhen>:)
12:04<Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> that might be the speed of the shadow on a number of sundials <-- that would be a fairly big one...
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>also, the speed depends on the date
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>it's faster in winter
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12:11<Rubidium>V453000: "Railway arch 0.2 is to be found in the VAST devellopment thread"
12:11<V453000>yeah, I somehow found it when searching for VAST things :D thank you though
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12:44*andythenorth is lost
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13:05<Eddi|zuHause>hey, that series ended ages ago :p
13:05*andythenorth is lost in pyramid :P
13:05<andythenorth>not on a silly island
13:07<andythenorth>there is a downside to a well documented framework
13:07<@Terkhen>too much to read?
13:08<andythenorth>it's quite absorbing
13:08<andythenorth>normally I just write code that doesn't work, until it does work
13:08<andythenorth>or I get bored
13:08<andythenorth>or copy and paste something else and hack at it
13:09<andythenorth>documentation is like cheating
13:15<@Alberth>now you must concentrate on the real problem that you want to solve :p
13:19<andythenorth>the real problem is understanding the framework :D
13:19<andythenorth>it's not hard, but I am not a good programmer :P
13:20<andythenorth>Alberth: you like python?
13:20<@Alberth>yes
13:20<andythenorth>join me :P
13:20<andythenorth>it's fun
13:20<@Alberth>I would like to, but I already have 2.5 projects
13:20<andythenorth>that's 1 less than me :)
13:21<Rubidium>that's not much
13:21<@Alberth>so technically I can, but spreading my time over many projects is not very productive
13:21<@Alberth>Rubidium: it is if you actually want to make some progress
13:21<andythenorth>he
13:22<Rubidium>oh...
13:22<@Alberth>I'd be happy to review code if you like
13:22<Rubidium>but the progress in osie and catcodec is great
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13:22<@Alberth>you are speaking in riddles; could you elaborate please?
13:23<andythenorth>Rubidium is the cheshire cat toda
13:23<andythenorth>y
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13:23<Rubidium>you don't know osie? She's lovely... feed her a recent OpenTTD screenshot and she'll tell you the used NewGRFs
13:23<Rubidium>catcodec is the tool to build opensfx
13:24<@Alberth>ah, that's you those magic statistics of yesterday were produced :p
13:24<Rubidium>nope
13:24*Alberth was thinking about catcodes of TeX instead
13:25<@Alberth>hmm, does osie eat heightmaps?
13:26<andythenorth>is osie on the interwebs?
13:26<Rubidium>if it's png it does
13:26<Rubidium>andythenorth: ofcourse
13:26<Rubidium>download-osie
13:26<@Alberth>nice :)
13:26<Rubidium>but if OpenTTD didn't embed the information into the png it won't find any
13:28<@Alberth>I did not explicitly enable nor disable it, it uses the standard png writer code in src/heightmap.cpp
13:30<Rubidium>it's not in trunk yet?
13:30<Rubidium>anyhow, MakePNGImage in screenshot.cpp adds the metadata
13:30<@Alberth>it is
13:31<Rubidium>ah, the writing code isn't in heightmap.cpp
13:32<Rubidium>so yes, it'll probably already be in the heightmaps
13:34<@Alberth>? oh, it's screenshot.cpp of course, stupid me
13:35<Rubidium>and osie's also in svn: ^/extra/osie
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13:43<Rubidium>but I agree with Alberth that most of my projects are "dead"
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: translators * r22539 /trunk/src/lang/portuguese.txt:
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: portuguese - 2 changes by JayCity
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14:49<@Terkhen>hmm... 1.1.1 is not in the "Minimum OpenTTD Version" menu on bananas
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14:55<Eddi|zuHause>someone forgot a step in the release process?
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14:56<@Terkhen>I don't know how is this usually updated
14:56<@Terkhen>TrueBrain, Rubidium ^
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15:09<Rubidium>Terkhen: by hand :( and with a restart of the webserver :(
15:09<@Terkhen>oh :(
15:09<V453000>how is it possible that I have Total bridges 1.11 in my data folder, I can easily create games with it, but when I am trying to join a server, it says that TBRS1.11 matching file not found
15:10<Rubidium>different grfid / md5 checksum
15:11<Rubidium>there are at least 3 different grfs with version 1.11
15:11<V453000>oh :D
15:12<Rubidium>likewise that there are 6 newstations 0.42
15:12<V453000>hmf
15:13<V453000>both md5 and grfid are the same
15:13<Rubidium>and 6 ttrs 3.02
15:13<V453000>letter by letter
15:14<V453000>oh wait
15:14<V453000>of course I am talking nonsense ...
15:14<V453000>they are different :)
15:14<Rubidium>Terkhen: better now?
15:15<@Terkhen>Rubidium: no, it is still not there
15:15<V453000>hm, ok, so I certainly have the wrong one ... how do I obtain the correct one though please?
15:16<Rubidium>V453000: if it ain't on bananas... try grfcrawler, forum, google, ...
15:16<V453000>google is silent and I already downloaded it from forums :p
15:17<V453000>and crawler just links to forum :|
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15:48<andythenorth>Ammler: you mentioned a VM environment for testing (maybe new) bananas?
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16:09<@Terkhen>now 1.1.1 is there, thank you Rubidium :)
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16:11<__ln__>is it possible to think of a commercial software product being sold in germany/france/spain without having the piece of software localized into german/french/spanish? typical end-users being non-technical persons
16:11<ChoHag>What the likely reason vehicles aren't being serviced when their %-age drops below the set level?
16:13<ChoHag>I have trains travelling most of the way across an enormous map and they arrive at their destination with 0% reliability.
16:13<ChoHag>Even though their service interval is set at 65%.
16:14<Rubidium>isn't it that vehicles are serviced when their reliability is the set amount less than the maximum reliability?
16:14<ChoHag>I don't know.
16:15<ChoHag>Seems logical to me it would be 'service ASAP after reliability drops below $value percent'.
16:15<@Terkhen>__ln__: there is no market for that in spain, I guess... although you might be able to change the language to english if it is included
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16:16<ChoHag>Whether that's %-age of max, or of 100 (ie. per-'cent'), I don't know.
16:16<Rubidium>even so, there are many other reasons why vehicles don't service
16:17<Rubidium>e.g. breakdowns disabled and setting "disable servicing when breakdowns are disabled"
16:17<ChoHag>Well it isn't that.
16:17<ChoHag>Damn things are breaking down near constantly.
16:17<Rubidium>or depots being too far from the main line
16:17<Rubidium>or ...
16:17<Rubidium>so... provide a savegame
16:18<__ln__>Terkhen: yes, my implicit assumption in the question was that the language is english rather than the local language.
16:19<ChoHag>They happily go straight past depots and ignore them.
16:20<andythenorth>put a pbs signal in the tile before the depot
16:21<andythenorth>they're probably not finding a path
16:21<ChoHag>There is, and the depots are _right_ _on_ the line.
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16:24<ChoHag>Savegame will be complicated.
16:24<ChoHag>I've ported my shipboost patch over to yacd 2.3 and haven't released it anywhere, so I'm running my own binary.
16:31<andythenorth>is bananas translated in any form?
16:34<@Terkhen>I don't think so
16:34<@Terkhen>I guess that you could move the strings to files with format similar to OpenTTD in case that in the future WT allows to translate other applications
16:35<@Terkhen>but that seems like looking too far ahead to me
16:35<andythenorth>probably
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17:06<Eddi|zuHause>the whole website was once prepared to be translated, but that was never implemented
17:15<+glx>well translations are implemented, just not yet included in WT :)
17:17<CIA-11>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22540 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Rename AcceptancePickup to GoodsEntryStatus.
17:19<CIA-11>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22541 /trunk/src/station_base.h: -Document: GoodsEntry struct.
17:21<CIA-11>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22542 /trunk/src/ (economy.cpp station_base.h station_cmd.cpp): -Add: Store cargo acceptance stats for stations.
17:24<CIA-11>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22543 /trunk/src/newgrf_station.cpp: -Feature: [NewGRF] Support for station variable 0x69.
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17:53<Eddi|zuHause>alledgedly, some unreleased version of newhouses did check "acceptance of nearby station"
17:55*Zuu wonders what station variable 0x69 does.
17:56<@Terkhen>it is an exercise for learning how to code variables :P
17:57<ccfreak2k>Zuu, it's the hottest variable.
17:57<Zuu>"Information about cargo accepted in the past" ?
17:58<Zuu>At least there is a variable 69 in the spec with that description.
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17:59<@Terkhen>Zuu: yes, is that one
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18:06<Zuu>Hmm, I'm thinking about the usefulness of exposing the GoodsEntryStatus to AIs.
18:07<Zuu>(and players to be fair in the AI <-> player battle)
18:07<Zuu>Though, players already got some features that AIs don't have.
18:09<@Terkhen>this info is not visible for players either
18:10<Zuu>I realized that, so if AIs get it, it would have to be exposed to players too in order to be fair.
18:11<@Terkhen>it could be an effort in two parts: enhanced station GUI and more station stats available to AIs
18:14<Zuu>Yes, though with some more though, with stats like this players will have hard to find time to mak use of it while AIs might even save some processing as they can reduce the statistics collection part.
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18:14<Zuu>make*
18:15<@Terkhen>the stats currently stored are not very informative, so you would need to extend that too
18:21<bodis>how do you make out of town airport accept passengers?
18:21<Zuu>bodis: Do you want to figure out if the airport accept passengers?
18:22<bodis>well I have built an airport outside city, so outside any coverage area
18:22<bodis>is it possible for it to accept passengers without using transfer?
18:22<Zuu>Select to build a new airport of the same type. Hover with the mouse over the existing airport to see what it covers. Also in the build airport window you'll see which cargos that the airport (will) accept.
18:22<Zuu>Oh,
18:23<bodis>yeah I am trying to make sort of a central airport
18:23<Zuu>You can transfer in one direction.
18:23<Zuu>Not dual
18:23<bodis>but then it will not work both directions
18:23<Zuu>Unless you use an OpenTTD build with cargo destinations.
18:23<bodis>damn this is not gonna quite work
18:24<Zuu>For dual transfers you need two airports, one in each direction.
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18:24<@Terkhen>you need an arrivals terminal and a departures terminal :)
18:24<bodis>hmm thats interesting :)
18:24<bodis>when you put it like that
18:24<@Terkhen>it is quite complicated to set up
18:24<Zuu>If you also have multiple relations (pairs of towns) you really need two airports per relation - one for each direction - to not mix up passengers.
18:25<@Terkhen>^
18:25<Zuu>Which is why you want a destination model.
18:25<bodis>yep
18:25<@Terkhen>with yacd you can just set up a single airport and forget about it
18:25<bodis>whats yacd?
18:25<Zuu>Yea, go and download YACD and have fun :-)
18:25<@Terkhen>a patch for cargo destinations
18:25<@Terkhen>I wouldn't recommend it until you know how to play default, though
18:26<@Terkhen>it is quite difficult to make money at first :)
18:26<bodis>ok :)
18:26<Zuu>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=54253 <-- YACD
18:26<bodis>ty I will try it conventional first :)
18:26<@Terkhen>ok :)
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18:29<Zuu>Though Terkhen is right, with yacd it is far more difficult to make money. It is also an ongoing development and is thus a more of a moving target.
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18:32<bodis>If I set up departures and arrivals airport then after dropping off passengers plane would have to fly from arrivals to departures right?
18:32<bodis>empty that is
18:32<Zuu>Yes
18:33<bodis>k
18:33<Zuu>There is a wiki article on how to set up two-directional transfer systems.
18:33<Zuu>http://wiki.openttd.org/Two-way_feeder_service
18:35<@Terkhen>good night
18:35<Zuu>night Terkhen
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19:31<Wolf01>'night
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22:56<pikka>Bing tiddle tiddle bong
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---Logclosed Sun Jun 05 00:00:33 2011