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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-06-05

---Logopened Sun Jun 05 00:00:33 2011
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02:12<a1270> just roll back to the 'stable' build of oldness.
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02:54<@planetmaker>good morning
02:57<@Terkhen>good morning
02:59<pikka>good evening
03:00<@Terkhen>hi pikka
03:04<@planetmaker>hoy Terkhen & pikka
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03:33<andythenorth>planetmaker: could we have make build multiple grfs from same repo and distribute them in one tar?
03:35<@planetmaker>currently: not
03:35<@planetmaker>also "hello andythenorth " :-)
03:35<@planetmaker>andythenorth: I'd not quite see the advantage in most cases to distribute grfs bundled
03:36<@planetmaker>what is your use-case you envision?
03:36<@planetmaker>I think you have in mind a re-write of bananas, I assume?
03:38<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I also think that currently OpenTTD expects to find a single piece of "content" in each tar, so you would need to change OpenTTD code too
03:39<andythenorth>planetmaker: the use case is HEQS
03:39<@planetmaker>Terkhen: afaik it handles tars just as "directories", sort of
03:39<andythenorth>few of you like my approach there
03:39<@planetmaker>like base sets are in one tar, too
03:39<@Terkhen>what's the problem with a parameter based approach? :P
03:40<@planetmaker>andythenorth: indeed, for now I think the most viable approach is a few parameters which enable / disable vehicle classes
03:40<@planetmaker>Probably three: trams / trucks / rail
03:40<andythenorth>I have that done already ;)
03:40<@planetmaker>but... I think we talked about that before and recommended exactly that solution with certain default parameters
03:40<@planetmaker>andythenorth: yes, that's ok
03:40<@Terkhen>that's how it's done already, IIRC the only thing missing is a switch for disabling the "core" trucks, just in case someone wants just bulldozers
03:41<andythenorth>even that's done I think
03:41<andythenorth>the chain of reasoning was this:
03:41<andythenorth>there is a forum suggestion about improving newgrf compatibility
03:41<andythenorth>which is mostly down to authors doing the right thing
03:41<andythenorth>but I don't think anywhere there is written down 'the right thing'
03:41<andythenorth>just outdated stuff from TTDP wiki
03:41<@planetmaker>that's right
03:42<@planetmaker>maybe we should add that. But ... the admin of the wiki will strongly disagre
03:42<andythenorth>maybe time to do the move from TTDP wiki....
03:42<@planetmaker>yes, it is, if you ask me
03:42<andythenorth>anyway, if I write a thing saying "don't mix types in a grf" I am a hypocrite
03:42<@planetmaker>yes and no
03:42<@planetmaker>so am I.
03:43<@planetmaker>there's no black and white only.
03:43<@planetmaker>if it was totally bad, it would need forbidding by the specs. Which isn't
03:43<@planetmaker>but it's more of a convenient for the user thing. Monolithic set authors disagree there
03:44<@planetmaker>which there are two :-P
03:45<andythenorth>I am going out soon, but it might be a good time to write a 'guidelines'
03:45<andythenorth>this week
03:45<@Terkhen>HEQS mixes trams and road vehicles, but that separation is unfair for it IMO; if there were roadtypes HEQS separation of vehicles would be different :)
03:46<@Terkhen>what kind of guidelines?
03:47<andythenorth>"don't mix types"
03:47<andythenorth>"vehicle sets shouldn't screw with cargos"
03:47<andythenorth>"town sets shouldn't screw with cargos"
03:47<andythenorth>"industry sets shouldn't screw with towns"
03:47<andythenorth>"landscape grfs shouldn't screw with anything else"
03:47<andythenorth>"cost parameters are a good idea"
03:47<andythenorth>"use action 14 as it's supposed to be used"
03:48<andythenorth>"if you have a big set, consider a parameter for 'core/extended'"
03:48<andythenorth>"use compatibility checks when there are known problems"
03:48<andythenorth>"never disable another grf"
03:48<@Terkhen>anyone else is picturing andythenorth descending from a mountain with two stone tables? :P
03:49<andythenorth>I just list what I've been told to do :P
03:49<@Terkhen>those rules are good IMO
03:49<andythenorth>plus we can add nfo + nml code examples for common cases
03:49<andythenorth>"light in game comes from bottom right"
03:49<@Terkhen>all of the problems I had with other NewGRFS we caused by not following those rules
03:50<@Terkhen>anyways, bbl
03:50<@planetmaker>[09:48] Terkhen anyone else is picturing andythenorth descending from a mountain with two stone tables? :P <-looooool!
03:50*andythenorth > going out too
03:50<@planetmaker>andythenorth: indeed it would be good to write down what you just outlined
03:50<@planetmaker>Indeed that's missing
03:51<pikka>yes. perhaps.
03:51<andythenorth>get frosch to write the final versions - no-one ever argues with him for some reason :P
03:51<@planetmaker>those are "good practise" rules which cannot be enforced a hard way, but they indeed should be around
03:52<@planetmaker>it's similar to coding style rules. It works without. But much better with
03:53*planetmaker doesn't see where pikka's newgrfs would have problems with these rules. Maybe, just maybe TAI. But... there the name already suggests it does ;-)
03:53<andythenorth>they're not new ideas :) I just write what I'm told :)
03:53<andythenorth>it's more useful though if they're backed by reusable code for the common cases
03:53<@planetmaker>not new. But "new" can also mean "summarized and made accessible"
03:54<@planetmaker>agreed, that code snippets might help. They can be added, though I'm not sure to what extend they make sense. But yes...
03:54<pikka>Tai has no problem
03:55<pikka>its multiple grfs, the town buildings and industries are separate
03:55<pikka>nars on the other hand... :p
03:55<andythenorth>nars 2 screws with my industry set :P
03:55<andythenorth>I have to put my cargos where you decided they should go :P
03:56<andythenorth>or I miss something in the spec :D
03:56<@planetmaker>right, nars :-)
03:56<andythenorth>or I should read the manual on NARS parameters, but I Don't Read Manuals
03:56<@planetmaker>historical ballast. The past can't be un-done
03:56<andythenorth>tis done
03:57<andythenorth>and tis a fine set
03:57<@planetmaker>but does nars2 still have a regearing cargo?
03:57<@planetmaker>anyway... done is done :-)
03:57<andythenorth>in my game, each regearable locomotive is very environmentally conscious
03:57<andythenorth>it carries 1t of recyclables :P
03:58<@planetmaker>probably the litter of the (very untidy) engine driver
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03:58<@planetmaker>quaaaak ;-)
03:58<andythenorth>he knows when he's needed
03:58<frosch123>moin :)
03:59*andythenorth is going to Wooton now and will wave at Chipping Sodbury on the way
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04:53<@planetmaker>sunday-ink ;-)
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05:05<pikka>good evening frosch et al
05:05<frosch123>hello pikka
05:05<frosch123>you're a rare guest in my time zone :)
05:06<pikka>in all time zones
05:07*pikka yawns
05:07<pikka>2 more hours to go tonight
05:09<pikka>then I only get exactly 10 hours before I start work tomorrow. the legal minimum!
05:10<@planetmaker>the "legal minimum"?
05:11<@planetmaker>how can there be a "legal minimum" for working hours?
05:11<pikka>woo fire engines
05:11<pikka>there isn't
05:11<pikka>there's a legal minimum for the break between
05:11<Rubidium>planetmaker: Germany has a legal limit for the amount of time between shifts as well
05:12<@planetmaker>ah, yes, that there is. I misunderstood the context
05:13<pikka>swine moat
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05:14<pikka>anyway... frosch is going to code all our wishlists, right? :D
05:14<@Alberth>eventually, very likely :)
05:15<@Terkhen>should I stop coding then? :)
05:15<@planetmaker>hm... no ;-)
05:15<@planetmaker>you're responsible for those wishes we don't even yet know ourselves :-P
05:15<@Terkhen>I was hoping that he would code my todo list too :/
05:16<@planetmaker>there's so much which could be done...
05:16<@planetmaker>and only so little time :-(
05:17<@Terkhen>right now I'm trying to do town persistent storage, I wonder what could it be used for
05:17<@planetmaker>minimum deliveries for town growth
05:18<@planetmaker>depending on town size
05:18<pikka>although in my case, when I have the time I strangely lack the inclination
05:18<pikka>stockpiling for towns :p
05:19<frosch123>pikka: nope, i don't code. i'm just a douche bag commenting on everything
05:19<@planetmaker>for certain definitions of "douche bag" and "commenting"?
05:19<pikka>a deutschebag
05:19<@planetmaker>@dict douche bag
05:20*pikka must to aspley now, goodbye
05:20<@DorpsGek>douche bag: bag of ideas with realisation instructions
05:20<frosch123>[11:17] <Terkhen> right now I'm trying to do town persistent storage, I wonder what could it be used for <- towns are accessible from most other features: stations, industries, objects
05:20<@planetmaker>bye pikka
05:20<@Terkhen>later pikka
05:20<frosch123>so it add local communication between these things
05:21<@Terkhen>frosch123: yes, that's my issue... I can see the most "obvious" features it could allow, but that communication will probably allow to do a lot of strange stuff I can't predict :)
05:21<@Terkhen>"magic" :P
05:22<@planetmaker>Terkhen: we'll find out with opengfx+ ;-)
05:22<frosch123>yeah, it allows multiple newgrfs to team up against the player :p
05:22<@planetmaker>lool :-)
05:22<@planetmaker>new competition style "newgrf vs player"?
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05:29<@Alberth>I don't like such additions, you'll get dual systems where both the program and the newgrf try to do global control
05:29<@Alberth>too complicated to make any sense
05:30<@Terkhen>but openttd right now does not do much control regarding town growth
05:31<frosch123>you can say that about almost every newgrf thingie, can't you?
05:31<@Alberth>so extend it?
05:32<@Alberth>frosch123: to some extent, yes, but now if a newgrf messes up, it is still understandable.
05:32<@Alberth>if they share information, it becomes impossible to decide what it happening
05:32<@Alberth>let alone how to handle such cases
05:33<@planetmaker> <-- for type 14 ... 16: what does the number after the , in the first column mean?
05:33<Rubidium>magic ;)
05:33<@planetmaker>the 94, 95 and 96 respectively
05:33<Rubidium>it's the same number |= 80h
05:33<frosch123>planetmaker: read the lines above the table :p
05:33<Rubidium>i.e. with bit 7 set
05:33<@Terkhen>Alberth: to access the town persistent storage you need to input a GrfID... most NewGRFs will access only "their" town persistent storage
05:34<@Alberth>also for eg debugging, you first need to reproduce the shared state before you can look at the problem
05:34<@Terkhen>if someone wants to do a mess and access other storages... he's asking for those complications :)
05:34<@planetmaker>thanks :-)
05:34<@Alberth>but the bug reports end up at our door step
05:34<frosch123>Alberth: persistent storage is stored in the save
05:35<frosch123>of course it needs to be exposed in the newgrf debug windos
05:35<Rubidium>I'd say that NewGRFs may only write their own storage, but read the storage of others
05:35<Rubidium>like they may read the parameters and version of others
05:35<@Alberth>and not read their own storage :p
05:36<@Terkhen>hmm... that makes sense, yes
05:36<@planetmaker>quite so :-)
05:36<@Alberth>a good step imho
05:37<frosch123>but it would also disallow to define common interfaces, which might be served by different grfs
05:37<frosch123>so, every grfs needs to know about everyone else, you cannot plug in something
05:37<@Alberth>you can write a newgrf that distributes data
05:38<@Alberth>frosch123: but even for reading, you need to know what data means
05:39<frosch123>somewhen the idea was that you can write to storage with an arbitrary grfid, i.e. even with an id which does not belong to any loaded grf
05:40<frosch123>so you could say there is generic town information stored with the grfid "TOWN"
05:40<Rubidium>I'd say: use GRFID FFxxyyzz for that
05:40<frosch123>and then you could define register 0 to contain growth information in a specific format
05:41<frosch123>otoh you can say that most approaches to make stuff freely defineable by grfs has failed so far :p
05:41<frosch123>like cargo classes, ...
05:41<Rubidium>or grfids ;)
05:41<@Terkhen>yes, I'd prefer to make those things available via variables
05:42<frosch123>but yes, restricting write access to the own grf and to grfids of a specific shape like FFxxyyzz would make sense :)
05:43<@Alberth>if I write a newgrf for controlling industries at the world, it needs to interface to the program, making a complicated mess. Imho it is better to cleanly either let the program control, or the newgrf control, not both
05:43<@Terkhen>so... 0 -> current newgrf, with write access, FFxxyyzz -> "fake" newgrfs, with write access, anything else (except the current newgrf) -> read access
05:44<frosch123>maybe it is also a good idea, to postpone the common access, and first see what mess newgrfs come up with :p
05:45<Rubidium>might even go so far to say FFFFFFFF is the current newgrf (is that used more often?)
05:45<@Terkhen>0xFFFFFFFF is used as current newgrf for industry vars 0x67 and 0x68, yes
05:46<@Alberth>seems like a good value to re-use :)
05:46<@Terkhen>frosch123: I agree, common access can be implemented later if needed :)
05:46<frosch123>would also ensure that newgrfs actually assign a value, and do not rely on zero-initialisation
05:46<@Terkhen>s/needed/we see that it won't cause a huge mess/
05:47<@Alberth>frosch123: use a random generator for init ;)
05:49<frosch123>[11:43] <Alberth> if I write a newgrf for controlling industries at the world, it needs to interface to the program, making a complicated mess. Imho it is better to cleanly either let the program control, or the newgrf control, not both <- the program should provide sane defaults, but the program cannot generically handle every requirement, they are too different for that
05:49<pikka>what fun
05:54<@Terkhen>templated classes are fun too
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05:55<@peter1138>hmm, is there a yacd_2.3 build around?
05:56<@peter1138>ah ha
05:58<pikka>knowing me knowing you
05:58<pikka>ah ha
05:59<pikka>time to go again...
05:59<Rubidium>peter1138: isn't there one on
06:00<@Terkhen>yes, there is one in bundles
06:06<@peter1138>yeah i found it
06:07<@peter1138>then i found that the openttdcoop server is on toyland
06:08<@peter1138>so yuck ;p
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06:36<mib_myd0kk>hi on MagLev food wagon is missing is this normal or some bug ? ver 1.1.1
06:37<@Yexo>which climate? do you use any newgrfs?
06:37<mib_myd0kk>newgfx artic
06:38<mib_myd0kk>on Monorail i can build this wagon only on
06:38<mib_myd0kk>maglev i can't
06:38<@Yexo>without any newgrfs there is a maglev food van in the arctic climate
06:39<@Yexo>can you upload your savegame somewhere?
06:40<mib_myd0kk>i can't dont have any ftp
06:41<@Yexo>you can always make a topic at the forum
06:41<@Yexo>and upload it there
06:41<@Yexo>or use some web fileshare site
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06:41<Ammler>mib_myd0kk: you mean ogfx+<something>?
06:41<Ammler>or what is newgfx
06:42<mib_myd0kk>ok i try to attach to some new topic
06:44<Ammler>or create a valid thread :-)
06:49<mib_myd0kk>only file .sav?
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06:52<mib_myd0kk>Yexo can u check ?
06:53<Chris_Booth>mib_myd0kk: I have problem with build food wagon on maglev railroad. Pls can someone check my save and give me aby clue how to repair this ?
06:53<Chris_Booth>maybe spell check that
06:54<@planetmaker>mib_myd0kk: it's most probable a result of the newgrf you use
06:54<@planetmaker>don't use it
06:54<Chris_Booth>and give a screen shot of the error
06:54<Chris_Booth>also the openttd version you are using would be helpful
06:54<Chris_Booth>and a list of grfs
06:54<@planetmaker>I don't know the openttdplus one, but...
06:55<@planetmaker>Chris_Booth: he did. And the savegame has that
06:55<@planetmaker>just a few lines back ;-)
06:55<@Yexo>mib_myd0kk: the description of the openttdplus grf says "it REQUIRES 'old wagons, new cargos' to work"
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06:56<mib_myd0kk>ok i try to disable newgrf
06:57<Rubidium>disabling NewGRFs mid-game will most likely cause many other issues
06:57<Rubidium>likewise for adding other NewGRFs
06:57<mib_myd0kk>i can't give you screen shot because it's not error
06:59<Chris_Booth>that .sav will fix your issue
07:02<mib_myd0kk>chris if that sav will be working i buy you beer if you will be in Poland someday :D
07:02<Chris_Booth>lol it works trust me
07:02<Chris_Booth>I need to book a holiday to poland now
07:04<@planetmaker>good that it's just holiday season ;-)
07:04<mib_myd0kk>yeah, it's not works for me ;/
07:05*planetmaker wonders though whether - if it were just for the beer - it would qualify as one of the top-10 of "most expensive beer in the world"
07:05<Chris_Booth>lol very True planetmaker
07:06<Chris_Booth>mib_myd0kk you need the grf I added
07:06<Chris_Booth>then to type reset_engines into the game consol
07:06<@Yexo>mib_myd0kk: in any case that "openttd plus" grf is very much broken
07:07<@Yexo>don't use it in any new games you start
07:07<mib_myd0kk>i keept it on my mind / never use openttd plus :)
07:07<@Yexo>actually you can't anymore in 1.1, which might be the reason of your problems now
07:08<mib_myd0kk>i see
07:11<mib_myd0kk>thanks for help Chris and Yexo
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08:19<Bilge>When placing a station to receive goods, does it matter if just one tile overlaps or the whole catchment overlaps the industry? I mean, does having more tiles overlap increase goods received at the station or not?
08:20<@planetmaker>it matters for towns, of course. As every house produces mail and passengers separately
08:20<Bilge>Yeah I figured
08:20<Bilge>But on the contrary, for goods, the most efficient configuration is the least tiles?
08:20<@planetmaker>it might make a difference for *accepting* some cargo for some industries. Not all tiles accept all cargo for all industries
08:20<@planetmaker>but you can see that in the station build preview of what is accepted
08:21<@planetmaker>there's nothing to optimze for industries shipping stuff to a station. Either they do. or they don't.
08:24<Bilge>Sure, thanks
08:25<Bilge>Do you know how much real time passes for a year of in-game time?
08:25<Bilge>I'm wondering how long I have to do these subsidies :)
08:26*Alberth never bothers with subsidies
08:26<@planetmaker>1 game year ~13 minutes
08:29<Bilge>For a list of road vehicles, there is a blue diagonal line beneath their number for most of them but now there's like a gold coin for a couple of them... what does that mean?
08:31<TWerkhoven>gold coin means its making profit
08:31<@planetmaker>indicator of how well they make money
08:31<TWerkhoven>blue diagonal means its a baby (<1 year old)
08:31<@planetmaker>wiki helps you...
08:31<@Alberth>@calc 2.22 * 365
08:31<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 810.3
08:31<@Alberth>@calc 810.3 / 60
08:31<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 13.505
08:32<@planetmaker>@calc 0.03 * 74 * 365
08:32<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 810.3
08:34<@Alberth>For future reference:
08:35<@planetmaker>@calc 0.027 * 74 * 365
08:35<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 729.27
08:35<@planetmaker>@calc 0.027 * 74 * 365 / 60
08:35<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 12.1545
08:35<@planetmaker>much shorter in TTDPatch ;-)
08:36<@Alberth>shorter games are less fun :p
08:36<@Alberth>the daylength patches prove that ;)
08:37<Bilge>Why might you increase or decrease the service interval?
08:37<@Alberth>more service == increased reliability == less breakdown
08:37<Ammler>keep breakdowns lower?
08:38<@Alberth>but more service == less transport == less money :)
08:39<Bilge>Breakdowns seem to be really short anyway
08:39<Bilge>Whereas services are somewhat disruptive
08:40<Bilge>Especially when a vehicle gets to its destination and then changes its mind, pathing all the way back to a depot somewhere
08:40<@Alberth>you can also add depot servicing in the orders
08:40<@Alberth>then it will not go looking for a depot on its own
08:40<@Alberth>otherwise, add more depots, they are not so costly :)
08:41<@planetmaker>orudge: we need a spambuster...
08:41<@Alberth>Bilge: breakdowns may be short but on a busy line/junction, they can cause much havoc in the flow
08:41<@orudge>planetmaker: pfft, why are my moderators never moderating. Seems I'm removing all the spam these days.
08:42<@planetmaker>orudge: well... I do. But I can't ban the person
08:42<Ammler>orudge: if you don't trust someone, you don't get more help, obviously :-)
08:42<@planetmaker>And I just called you as it just started
08:42<@orudge>well, I'm not sure which spam you're referring to specifically anyway, I see spam in Off-Topic
08:42<@planetmaker>^ just started posting
08:42<@orudge>I banned him
08:42<@planetmaker>one posting per minute or so... ;-)
08:43<@planetmaker>I thought better ask now than remove about one posting per thread... which is tedious at least
08:43<@planetmaker>from those "flood bots"
08:43<@planetmaker>the single posting spammers are not that bad
08:44<@orudge>well, it doesn't really matter how much spam is posted, I can remove it all in one swoop
08:44<@orudge>but obviously, the less the better in general
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08:45<Ammler>you should allow mods to do that too
08:45<@planetmaker>well, I usually visit forums by "view new postings". And then such mass-postings are VERY visible
08:45<@planetmaker>I nearly never browse the forums by other methods ;-)
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>"view new posts" only works for small forums
08:46<@planetmaker>works fine here, too
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>especially since it's not possible to filter certain subforums
08:46<@orudge>Ammler: I can't
08:46<@orudge>without making them admins
08:47<Ammler>planetmaker: how do you filter out the non-openttd forums?
08:47<@orudge>it's a phpBB admin feature, not a moderator feature :(
08:47<@planetmaker>brain 1.0
08:47<Ammler>orudge: then make more admins :-)
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>i only visit the openttd and graphics forum, and check all new posts in the subforums from there
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>with smaller forums like the german one, i use "view new posts"
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>one problem is always the AI subforum
08:50<@planetmaker>that's more clicks. Now I go to 'new postings' and then open the interesting ones in a separate tab and can read
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>it should be moved out of general forum, next to the other subforums
08:50<@planetmaker>whereever the interesting ones are
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but that means i must judge "interesting" posts from the title
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: and i can't declare individual threads as "i don't care"
08:51<@planetmaker>I'd support that move of the NoAI sub-forum
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>it's _by far_ not optimal
08:51<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: how do you mean? in the sub-forum view you only see the topic titles, too
08:52<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: the no-ai subforum was just for Truebrain, so he didn't need to browse the whole openttd forum
08:52<Ammler>it is a bit silly to keep that
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yes, but the number of potential "not-interesting" ones is way lower
08:52<TrueBrain>Ammler: you make interesting assumptions :D
08:53<Ammler>ah, it is nice to speak about you and assume you aren't around anyway :-P
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: having an AI subforum is fine, it just shouldn't be a sub-subforum of the general forum
08:53<TrueBrain>highlighting does crazy stuff :)
08:53<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: that I always said :D
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: i know. i always said that, as well. only orudge is too lazy :p
08:54<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: well, part is user help, part is development
08:54<TrueBrain>nah; he set it up as sub-sub to see if there was any interest as a seperate forum; there clearly is ;)
08:54<Ammler>this special subforum just confuses
08:54<Bilge>I don't get why vehicles will overtake a "crashed" vehicle but not a broken down one
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: they do, but only on straight road
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08:55<Eddi|zuHause>not near curves, stations or crossings
08:56<Ammler>but if you move no-ai to same level as General and Development, confusion would be indeed gone :-)
08:57<@orudge>what confusion is there, exactly?
08:57<@orudge>nobody's reported anything, as far as I know
08:57<Ammler>orudge: where would you post question about no-ai development?
08:58<@orudge>that'd be the NoAI forum
08:58<@orudge>perhaps NoAI should be a subforum of OpenTTD Development instead of General OpenTTD
08:58<@Alberth>suggestions and feedback, if you want to discuss the forum itself
08:58<Ammler>orudge: then where do you post questions about certain ai?
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>orudge: the problem i have is that i don't care about new posts in the noai subforum, but whenever the noai subforum has a new post, the general forum gets marked as "has new posts" as well, so i have to go there, and mark the subforum as read
08:59<@orudge>again, anything AI-related should be in the AI forum
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>orudge: if it was an equal subforum, i could just ignore it
08:59*Alberth agrees
08:59<Ammler>orudge: which is not obvious since it is a subforum
08:59<@planetmaker>orudge: consistency with graphics requires NoAI to be a direct sub-forum of OpenTTD
08:59<@planetmaker>not of an OpenTTD sub-forum
08:59<@orudge>maybe, but I'd prefer not to clutter up the main forum index too much
09:00<@orudge>but we'll see
09:00<@planetmaker>we saw for two, three years now ;-)
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i don't think so, the AIs are not TTDP-compatible, so they can be an openttd subforum. just openttd-general sub-subforum is silly
09:00<@orudge>and nobody has complained until now, so it seems to be fine ;)
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09:00<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: yes, that's what I say
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>orudge: i complained many times
09:00<Bilge>I thought selling road recovered income in the original game? Now it seems everything is just more cost
09:00<@orudge>Eddi|zuHause: on the forums itself? I don't recall reading any such tihng
09:00<@planetmaker>but it doesn't make sense to have them a sub-forum of any other openttd-subforum
09:01<@orudge>but anyway
09:01<@planetmaker>I think we agree on where it should be. a sub-forum of f=55 ;-)
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>not sure, but there was definitely talk in here
09:02<@orudge>Eddi|zuHause: then I likely didn't see it, so it can't be considered an official suggestion or complaint :)
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>i'm convinced there was a highlight involved as well :p
09:03<Ammler>well, alternative would be remove no-ai completely
09:04<@planetmaker> and
09:05<Ammler>hmm, you might need to announce ai releases
09:05<@planetmaker>the latter is the initial creation topic
09:05<Ammler>also isn't there time to think about a better name than no-ai?
09:06<@planetmaker>Not the Old AI?
09:06<Ammler>no-ai is kind of "insiderish"
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09:55<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
09:55<andythenorth>Ammler: you can give me a VM with ssh access?
09:59<Ammler>andythenorth: if you don't have any spedific desire, I setup a suse 11.4 then I can help you, but I could also setup another distro, if you want
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09:59<andythenorth>I am easy
09:59<andythenorth>I am only familiar with OS X and FreeBSD
09:59<andythenorth>but the needs are basic
09:59<andythenorth>if it has python 2.6 and ssh I'm happy
10:00<Ammler>you get already 2.7 :-)
10:00<andythenorth>might have to add 2.6
10:00<andythenorth>can't be bothered to figure out differences between the two ;)
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10:01<Eddi|zuHause>going from 2.6 to 2.7 should be easy. the other way not so much
10:02<andythenorth>I need to be able to scp to it as well
10:02*andythenorth hates scp for various reasons
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>that's trivial when ssh works
10:02<Rubidium>then use sftp ;)
10:03<Ammler>andythenorth: I would hightly recommend to use hg
10:03<andythenorth>Ammler: might do later
10:03<andythenorth>this is just fooling around initially
10:03<andythenorth>it's not worth to setup a remote repo for the learning-pyramid exercises I'm doing
10:04<Ammler>hmm, might be worth to training handling stage and production environment :-)
10:05<Ammler>e.g. I have and , if I am happy with testing, I simply pull stage
10:05<andythenorth>I'm picking off one step at a time - the first is running a pyramid on a box
10:05<andythenorth>I'll add hg after that
10:07<andythenorth>Ammler: might be worth to read this for you - you might find it interesting?
10:08<Ammler>we use uwsgi for hgweb too
10:08<@planetmaker>any URL would do, I guess
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10:10<Ammler>andythenorth: I can help you with deploying your wsgi script then
10:10<andythenorth>great :)
10:11<andythenorth>I don't have one yet :)
10:11<andythenorth>will take a few weeks to do this, one step at a time
10:12<Ammler>yeah, I just meant you don't necessary care about that too :-P
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11:36<@planetmaker>he... last ttdp nightly from mid January
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11:51<@Terkhen>those commits are from newgrf objects right?
11:51<Bilge>What are you supposed to do about vehicles getting old?
11:52<Thorn_>what any self respecting company doesn't do - replace them
11:52<@Yexo>if you play with breakdowns on you could replace them with new vehicles
11:52<Bilge>lol yes but how do I go about it
11:52<Bilge>Manually ordering them into a depot... OK
11:55<Bilge>Auto replace isn't intended to replace "old" vehicles though is it
11:56<Bilge>It's for upgrading to different models, not replacing just the old ones with new ones of the same type
11:56<@Yexo>sorry, wrong link
11:56<@Yexo>you're right, I meant to link to autorenew:
11:57<@planetmaker>Terkhen: yes
11:59<@Terkhen>I see
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12:03<Bilge>Why does a wood say that I only transport 37% of its monthly production and my station has a poor (32%) rating even though my train never leaves the station with anywhere near a full load and there are no competitiors?
12:03<Bilge>If it actually PUT 100% of the load at the station I could carry it no problem so I don't understand why the production is so low
12:11<Bilge>That doesn't explain why the wood (industry) isn't "putting out"
12:11<@Yexo>industry production is linked to station rating
12:12<@Yexo>same page, little lower:
12:12<Bilge>It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that I only have one square of catchment overlapping then?
12:13<@Terkhen> <--- for production changes check this part of that page
12:22<@planetmaker>hm... one gotta love Deutsche Bahn. As soon as it gets warm and air conditions are needed, the airconditions fail on their high tech trains :-P
12:23<@planetmaker>same story as last year ;-)
12:26<@Terkhen>because they did not try them at all until now?
12:28*Terkhen is baffled by pools
12:28<Eddi|zuHause>same procedure as every year.
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12:39<@Alberth>Terkhen: just a splash of water in a hole, or a smallvector-like thing iirc :)
12:40<@Terkhen>what confuses me the most is the strange inheritance and template magic :P
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12:41<@Alberth>oh yeah. there are a few members that you want to be able to access from the 'wrong' object without having to prefix it
12:44<@Alberth>pool item has a GetNumItems() eg
12:44<@Terkhen>I'm also wondering how to deal with the ordering of the persistent storage arrays regarding grfid... I don't think that it is worth the effort of sorting them by grfid for finding them more easily
12:44<@Terkhen>so I'm thinking on first stored, first appended to the list
12:45<@Alberth>that's what a pool does
12:45<@Terkhen>no, I was talking about the list for each town
12:46<@Terkhen>oooh, I need multiple inheritance :)
12:46<@Alberth>src/misc/hashtable.hpp or src/core/smallmap_type.hpp may be alternatives
12:46<@Terkhen>so I must be doing something wrong :P
12:46<@Terkhen>but I don't think that those types are prepared to be used in saveload code
12:46<@Alberth>C++ has multi-inheritance, except the .NET MS version
12:48<@Alberth>you could also sort/hash on a combination of town-id and grf-id
12:48<Rubidium>Terkhen: take a look at how stations store their specs. You could do something similar for towns with their smallmap of persistent storage
12:49<andythenorth>how many TTDP users are there thought to be ?
12:49<@Alberth>< 6*10**9
12:49<@Terkhen>I'll check that, thanks
12:49<Rubidium>definitely 2
12:49*andythenorth was reading the grf-crawler thread
12:50<andythenorth>extending action 14 to identify content, compatibility seems non-controversial?
12:50<@Terkhen>does TTDP supports action14 or just ignores it without crashing?
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12:51<Rubidium>Terkhen: if new enough the latter, I hope
12:51<Rubidium>andythenorth: by the looks of it 126 downloads in the last week
12:51<andythenorth>so some
12:52<@Terkhen>extending action 14 for that would be nice, although you will have a hard time defining types of "content"
12:52<andythenorth>not if it follows the nfo spec
12:52<andythenorth>for newgrf
12:52<@Terkhen>in which way?
12:52<Rubidium>against 24k for OpenTTD
12:52<andythenorth>stations, trains, ships, aircraft
12:52<@Terkhen>each type of Action0 is a type of content?
12:52<andythenorth>effectively yes
12:53<@Terkhen>then you need to add extras like basecosts, snowline and so on
12:53<@Terkhen>I don't know how they are handled but I guess they don't have their own type of action0
12:54<Rubidium>action0general or something?
12:54<andythenorth>some are general yes
12:54<Rubidium>okay, general variable
12:54<andythenorth>I have no problems with doing it that way, limited as it may be
12:54<@Terkhen>"action0general = other" then?
12:54<andythenorth>it has some problems, but perfect is enemy of good
12:55<Rubidium>Terkhen: but... it's also used for e.g. engine overrides and translation tables (cargo, railtype)
12:55<@Terkhen>that classification also fails to distinguish between buses/trucks and trams, or between trains using different rail types
12:55<@Terkhen>but those are not big issues IMO
12:55<andythenorth>trams are a definite entity currently
12:55<andythenorth>their movement code is different
12:56<@Terkhen>but they use the same action0 than normal road vehicles
12:56<@planetmaker>openttd already has an internal table which keeps track of used features, that is action0.
12:56<@planetmaker>Not sure whether all action0 types are considered, though
12:56<Rubidium>pff... maybe define some default tags for NewGRFs which the author can set, or bananas can provide a suggest for when the newgrf is uploaded
12:56<andythenorth>I wouldn't do this programmatically, it would be action 14 or other using keywords from a fixed dictionary
12:56<andythenorth>we control the dictionary, no-one else
12:56<@planetmaker>andythenorth: you can parse the action0s ;-)
12:56<Eddi|zuHause><Terkhen> does TTDP supports action14 or just ignores it without crashing? <- newer versions ignore it, older versions reject the grf due to invalid sprite
12:57<@planetmaker>but... that's probably too much
12:57<@planetmaker>some pre-made categories are fine
12:57<andythenorth>and if some author disagrees, there's a process to lobby to change them
12:57<@planetmaker>you could take grf crawler's categories
12:57<@planetmaker>and add the new ones openttd supports
12:57<@planetmaker>or maybe a bit more fine-grained
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>pre-made categories and an auto-suggest by grf content (used actions)
12:58<andythenorth>I liked the action 14 suggestion by alberth best
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. alpine.grf would get "houses, industries", NARS gets "trains, cargos"
12:58<@planetmaker>like bridges, rail tracks (=infrastruc), trams, road vehicles, aircraft, trains, maglev, monorail, metro, narrow gauge as sub-categories
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>trees.grf gets "landscape, static"
12:58<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause both of those should be verboten :P :D
12:59<@planetmaker>static. VERY good and important point
12:59<andythenorth>(alpine + NARS)
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i agree. but they do exist :p
12:59<@planetmaker>no GUI ingame yet, but ...
12:59<andythenorth>this needs turning into a spec :)
12:59*andythenorth will have to bath the baby in two minutes
12:59<andythenorth>but maybe time later
12:59<@planetmaker>sounds like dejà vu
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>openttd already checks whether a grf can be static. you can just copy that check
12:59<andythenorth>planetmaker: that's babies
12:59<andythenorth>same shit, different day
13:00<andythenorth>and vice versa
13:00<andythenorth>incidentally, if I do manage to recode bananas...
13:00<andythenorth>...and add some web pages per grf
13:00<andythenorth>it would have to only be grfs allowed to be distributed with openttd imo
13:00<andythenorth>I don't fancy supporting some extra system for mad people
13:01<andythenorth>people who don't allow their grf on the content service are wrong and not playing properly
13:01<@Terkhen>it shouldn't support anything that cannot be downloaded ingame
13:01<@planetmaker>it'd mean unnecessary extra work.
13:01<@planetmaker>either allow that or don't use it
13:01<andythenorth>don't support the anti-social
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>there aren't really that many grfs that disallow distribution
13:01<andythenorth>there's one famous one I believe
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>some canset version was "withdrawn"
13:01<@planetmaker>probably yes
13:02<andythenorth>incidentally, someone explained to me once why a GPL grf doesn't need to display a gpl notification in game
13:02<andythenorth>why is that?
13:02*planetmaker doesn't want to remember those times
13:02<@planetmaker>andythenorth: because it simply doesn't require that
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you don't need to know the license for using the program
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: only for modifying/distributing
13:02<andythenorth>there was a specific license FAQ about it somewhere
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>so displaying it ingame is pointless
13:03<@planetmaker>BUT: if you modify a gpl'ed programme which has that display: then you must not remove it
13:03<andythenorth>I thought it fell on the wrong side of an interactive program should display the license as part of its startup
13:03<andythenorth>but apparently not
13:03<@Terkhen>this is a non-issue anyways: supporting stuff that can't be downloaded ingame does not serve any purpose
13:03<andythenorth>anyways, I was also wondering about extending action 14 with a license field
13:03<@planetmaker>thus: if original author doesn't do it: you can but need not. If s/he does: then you need to
13:03<@Terkhen>it is detrimental to openttd and to its players
13:04<andythenorth>but does a license field serve any purpose?
13:04<@planetmaker>IMHO yes
13:04<@planetmaker>on bananas: 100%
13:04<andythenorth>bananas already has that on the web interface
13:04<@Terkhen>I don't think that it is worth to add a action14 field with a license, the tars already include the license inside them
13:05<andythenorth>the general direction I would like to go is to have action 14 encapsulate as much metadata as possible along with the grf
13:05<andythenorth>then the information travels with the file
13:05<@Terkhen>and including the license in the tar is compatible for other types of content
13:05<@Terkhen>so IMO action 14 should only store newgrf specific info
13:06<@Terkhen>anything else such as license or other metadata common to all data types should be stored in the tar, openttd can access that too and it would be common
13:06<@Terkhen>s/data types/content types/
13:06<andythenorth>like a manifest?
13:06<andythenorth>xml :P
13:06<@Terkhen>IIRC there is a file with metadata already
13:06<@Terkhen>but I'm not sure about that :P
13:07<@planetmaker>within tars? no
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but including all sorts of metadata in action 14 (like translated readmes etc.) means you have to duplicate a lot of data, or have grfcodec fill them in automatically (which it won't, so you need other programs like cpp)
13:07<andythenorth>it might be a bad idea
13:08<@Terkhen>readmes should definitely be distributed in the tar
13:08<@planetmaker>also... a re-write of bananas IMHO should not touch a14. Or possibly I just don't see why and where
13:08<@planetmaker>maybe tags... but...
13:08<andythenorth>planetmaker: it's maybe a different purpose I have in mind
13:09<andythenorth>basically around tags yes
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>the rewrite of bananas would be totally independent from extending action 14
13:09<@planetmaker>yep. It'd make things needlessly complicated
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>after all, each grf author could still leave out entries from action 14
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>then bananas must still work
13:09<andythenorth>I think that action 14 should become required....but that is a way off probably
13:10<andythenorth>if ever
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>you can't make things required, grf specs are defined to be upwards compatible
13:10<andythenorth>I was thinking instead about filtering the grfs you already have
13:10<andythenorth>you can find new grfs with the slightly-not-optimum tags
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>any grf from before action 14 was introduced must still work in the future
13:10<andythenorth>but you can't find train grfs in your existing grfs
13:11<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: you can require it of uploaded content, or of new newgrfs, by e.g. having grfcodec and nml fail without
13:11<andythenorth>why can't we patch old grfs? Apart from it's boring....
13:11<@planetmaker>andythenorth: because then they're new grfs
13:11<andythenorth>new newgrfs :P
13:12<andythenorth>and we don't have the rights
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: differing md5 sum
13:12<@Alberth>you need to have permission by the license
13:12<andythenorth>so another idea I have: only distribute new newgrfs that have a license allowing modification
13:12<andythenorth>it would cause a few months of argument
13:12<andythenorth>then everyone would get on with it
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: technically, you don't. you can modify programs without permission "to provide interoperability"
13:12<andythenorth>I think it's dumb that some authors want to take their work to the grave with them
13:13<andythenorth>or to the point where they get bored, leaving stuff unfinished / broken
13:13<@Terkhen>I'm guessing that allowing only certain licenses was already discussed and rejected before bananas was actually implemented :)
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13:13<@Terkhen>I don't think that we should force people to use licenses allowing modification
13:13<andythenorth>there are some big noises who don't agree with copyleft style licensing
13:13<@Alberth>andythenorth: so the problem resolves itself in time
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13:13<andythenorth>the landscape has changed imo - far more people contributing work now under gpl
13:13<@Terkhen>if those people don't want to use such licenses, they might have their reasons
13:14<@Terkhen>we can only rally new people to a certain way of doing things
13:14<@Terkhen>and I think that has been working lately :)
13:14*planetmaker would actually only hope that george and pikka would use more permissable licenses
13:14<@planetmaker>more community-friendly ones
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: imposing license restrictions is _not_ the point of bananas
13:14<andythenorth>pikka is up a creek without a paddle
13:15<andythenorth>pikka can't use a copyleft license because he doesn't have copyright in a lot of his sprites :)
13:15<andythenorth>so my idea would deprive me of some of my favourite grfs :(
13:15<George>planetmaker: What problem do you have with the license?
13:15<@planetmaker>George: same what we discussed already: the -ND part
13:16<@planetmaker>Should you fall of Earth no one can continue to carry on your work
13:16<George>What is wrong with it?
13:16<@planetmaker>Like I for example did with TTRS
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yes, after 70 years
13:16<@planetmaker>or 95. Or whenever
13:16<George>FIRS team has personal GPL for any art/code I created
13:17<andythenorth>I think quite a lot of pikka's stuff is now 100% original
13:17<andythenorth>he just finds licensing silly :)
13:17<andythenorth>is my guess
13:17*andythenorth -> baby.bath()
13:18<George>FIRS team can use it even not waiting till my death
13:18<andythenorth>or should it be self.bath("baby") ?
13:18<George>If anyone plans to do it too - request me and get your personal license
13:18<@planetmaker>George: I don't want to argue really. This is also not that I need a special sprite now or any code. I know that you always are very willing to share and I had always only got a positive answer from you whenever I asked you about something related to it
13:18<@Alberth>George: the point is anybody should be able to do that
13:18<andythenorth>or house.bath("baby", "_self")
13:19<andythenorth>or portalFactory.invokeBath("Baby", __this__) ?
13:19<andythenorth>my wife thinks none of above
13:19<George>Alberth: This anybody can request me
13:19<Eddi|zuHause><George> If anyone plans to do it too - request me and get your personal license <-- in debian speak, this fails the desert island test.
13:19<@planetmaker>The point, as Alberth says: if you suddenly vanish. Only andythenorth and myself could use that for FIRS
13:19<andythenorth>my wife's method is BATH.NOW
13:19<@Alberth>George: which is kind of hard after you got hit by a bus
13:19*planetmaker assignes andythenorth to BATH
13:20<George>> use that for FIRS <- not only for FIRS. For anything under GPL
13:20<@planetmaker>hm... why then not GPL the thing?
13:20<@Alberth>what are you afraid of?
13:20<George>because ECS includes graphics, that were crated by others
13:21<@planetmaker>that's definitely a valid point. They would need to agree
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>there are two ways to solve that. either ask them for permission to change license, or replace those graphics
13:22<George>I have the permission to use it for ECS, but I never asked the permission to use it for something else. So GPL seems does not fit
13:23<George>> or replace those graphics <- I suppose I'll die first than it would happen :D
13:24<George>But as you could see, it is done slowly
13:24<@planetmaker>George: could you - or does it exist - make a list of graphics which you drew yourself and could grant license to use in GPL projects?
13:24<@planetmaker>or where modification is allowed under the condition of attribution?
13:24<@planetmaker>rather readme ;-)
13:25<@planetmaker>or is that there?
13:25<George>> make a list of graphics which you drew yourself and could grant license to use in GPL projects? < - this is possible
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>wiki is the ecs readme :p
13:25<George>Eddi|zuHause: Yes
13:25<@planetmaker>George: and I assume the code is exclusively by you?
13:25<@Alberth>in the extreme case you could split the grf in a gpl part and non-free part, but that may be too extreme
13:26<George>> George: and I assume the code is exclusively by you? <- Yes
13:26<George>too extreme :(
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>well, putting them in different places in the source code would be enough
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>like sprites/gpl and sprites/nonfree directories
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>then someone who downloads the code can easily distinguish them
13:28-!-Scuddles [] has quit []
13:28<@planetmaker>that'd be pretty cool
13:29<@Alberth>the 'others' have left already?
13:30<@Alberth>tt-forums may still have an email address
13:33<George>Eddi|zuHause: If someone would help me to do it ... currently we did not finish with TTRS ... And devzone is not the thing that is "userfriendly" for me. As I wrote several times, I need someone to help me with it. After I get familar with devzone with TTRS, the next step would be to move ECS to devzone. But I would need help to do it too.
13:33<@planetmaker>for some NewGRFs that's quite a fruitless endeavour as I know from my own experience - and that was 2 or 3 years ago
13:33<@planetmaker>George: I can only offer help :-)
13:34<@planetmaker>And there are several levels of how it can be used
13:34<@planetmaker>but all indeed require the use of a revision control system
13:34<George>Alberth: No. But as I wrote, I NEVER requested them to provide a wider license
13:34<@planetmaker>which... is a certain entry barrier
13:35<@planetmaker>but one cannot use it without as that's the core of the thing
13:36<@Alberth>and it is a useful step, much like from writing at paper to writing using a computer
13:36<Bilge>Why is permitting a train to reverse at a station a "difficulty setting"?
13:36<@Alberth>all settings influence difficulty
13:37<@Alberth>but mainly hysteric raisins
13:38<@Alberth>quite lilely that setting was added before advanced settings existed
13:39<@Alberth>or before 'config patches' existed, the previous name of advanced settings :p
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>it's an original game setting
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: translators * r22544 /trunk/src/lang/ (romanian.txt vietnamese.txt):
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: romanian - 5 changes by tonny
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: vietnamese - 3 changes by myquartz
13:49<Bilge>Can you change the "[far end]" instruction?
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>yes, click on it
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>also, you can set a default value in the advanced settings
13:55<Bilge>Thanks! :)
13:58<andythenorth>one of the good things about the baby.bath() method is that you can pass in a helper function which will be called when the method returns
13:59<andythenorth>or, if you have a sensible framework, you can pass in an object name and rely on the object's default methods to sort it out
13:59<andythenorth>so in this case I can pass "Wife"
13:59<andythenorth>if the object has no methods it might raise an objection
13:59<andythenorth>which is what happens if I pass "self.Brother"
13:59<andythenorth>if I just pass "teddyBear" the error passes silently
14:00<andythenorth>until the baby process timesout and raises to the main thread
14:00<Rubidium>ghehe... do I hear a 'main' and 'non-free' repository for bananas? Where 'main' is always compiled from source, i.e. the source is uploaded?
14:00<andythenorth>oh - you concluded that too?
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: no, you're mixing two different argumentations :p
14:00<andythenorth>along with automatically adding new action 14 to old grfs by recompiling them?
14:01<@Terkhen>I don't think you can do that to newgrfs with certain licenses, even if it is done automatically
14:02<andythenorth>and no-one laughed at my baby jokes :P
14:02*andythenorth will have a beer
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: too few people with a baby (in the same development stage) around
14:03<andythenorth>belugas would have laughed :|
14:04*andythenorth is about to make severely hypocritical argument and expects to be shot down twice
14:04*andythenorth uses original TTD graphics
14:04<andythenorth>and one of my favourite sets is canset
14:04<andythenorth>but still I think openttd should insist on gpl or similar for content
14:05<andythenorth>(if distributing, not checking when loaded or anything silly like that)
14:05<Rubidium>andythenorth: ofcourse you're using the DOS graphics like I am, right?
14:05<andythenorth>windows :P
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: nope, you'll drown in arguments whether X license is "free enough"
14:05<andythenorth>openttd doesn't drown in those
14:05<andythenorth>I miss what's even controversial about this
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>is CC-BY-NC "free enough"?
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>is CC-BY-ND "free enough"?
14:06*Prof_Frink is currently playing a TempSet game for maximum oldschoolness
14:06<andythenorth>the game is GPL. Those making content from the game benefit from the work of hundreds of others
14:06<andythenorth>why do they get a free pass?
14:06<@Terkhen>andythenorth: you might want to check discussions about this same issue in the package systems of many linux distributions
14:06<andythenorth>from / for /s
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so any program that runs on windows must be under the windows license?
14:07*andythenorth expects to get shot down :P
14:07<andythenorth>I just can't get it
14:07<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: NC would be debatable in my eyes, ND I wouldn't consider free at all (both in the context of OpenTTD)
14:07<andythenorth>I don't understand the attitude of not using GPL, no matter how much I try
14:07<Rubidium>it does not imply that ND/NC content should be banned at all cost though
14:08<andythenorth>to me it's quite binary, either you're making software to sell (for a living or beer money), or you make software for free
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14:08<andythenorth>if you make software for free, it should be free, not some half-assed crap
14:08<@Terkhen>for a content system IMO it is better to have some stuff with a restricted license than to not have it at all
14:08<andythenorth>it's parasitic imo
14:08<andythenorth>those people are parasites
14:08<@Terkhen>because having stuff is better than not having stuff :P
14:08<andythenorth>some parasites are beneficial :P
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you are drawing things too black and white
14:09<Rubidium>andythenorth: NC is there to prevent others from making money of your work, which is usually more interesting for arty stuff (graphics, music, etc)
14:09<Prof_Frink>Those are called symbiotes.
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>GPL isn't the "ultimate freedom" either
14:09<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I often do :P
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>it has also quite heavy restrictions
14:09*andythenorth requests a 2 colour palette
14:09<Rubidium>as those are easier to use by commercial entities
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>CC-BY is "much free-er" in most aspects than GPL
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>or even CC-BY-SA
14:10<andythenorth>so is this a general "yes", general "no" or general "we don't want to face the arguments" ?
14:11<@Terkhen>new sets with licenses that don't allow modification are becoming more and more rare, we should focus on that instead of worrying about old sets
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>i'm a "general no" to bananas license restrictions
14:11<@Terkhen>meanwhile, it is nice to have the old sets around too
14:11<@Terkhen>^me too
14:11<Rubidium>andythenorth: d) we'd be hypocritical to not allow anything that is non-free-ish
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>because there is no sane argument for "yes" that couldn't be torn apart
14:11<andythenorth>Rubidium: because...?
14:12<Rubidium>it's license can't be considered particularly "free"
14:13<Bilge>I like that people are prepared to pay full bus fare as long as they are delivered to their destination within a month
14:13<Rubidium>it falls in the CC-BY-NC category
14:14<Rubidium>i.e. no commercial distribution
14:14*andythenorth ponders adding a social factor
14:15<andythenorth>OT: google does / did improve rank for pages made with semantically valid html
14:15<andythenorth>that's a technical and political decision by goole
14:15<andythenorth>google /s
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>if i would order licenses by "free-ness" i'd say "public domain" [not really a license], CC-BY, CC-BY-SA, GPL, CC-BY-ND, CC-BY-NC.
14:15<andythenorth>means there's lots of spam blogs with standards-compliant markup :P
14:16<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: don't discuss PD with MB
14:16<andythenorth>in his view, it's not free at all
14:16<andythenorth>depending on legal jurisdiction
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>(that last one is probably more a view whether "free-beer-ness" is more important than "free-speech-ness", though)
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14:17<andythenorth>my criteria are simple: (1) can it be distributed via bananas (2) can it be be modified and redistributed (in our case for maintenance purposes, but there's obviously no limit on why)
14:18<andythenorth>my stuff is GPL for a third reason, can other people learn / copy from it easily for their sets, but that's non-essential
14:19<andythenorth>(1) should be covered by bananas current ToS anyway
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>bananas has absolutely no business enforcing (2)
14:20<andythenorth>probably not
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14:26<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: WTFPL is probably the closest legally agreed form of PD
14:26<andythenorth>which wiki is best place to start an article on desirable newgrf standards?
14:26<andythenorth>*desirable* being the significant word
14:27<andythenorth>openttd wiki? devzone? ttdp wiki?
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the grf-wiki's tutorial section?
14:27<andythenorth>I wonder if that wiki needs to be deprecated...
14:28<@Alberth>ttdp due to its home of newgrfs, or devzone for its neutrality
14:28<andythenorth>increasingly I think devzone might be the key place for ottd newgrf development
14:28<Rubidium>though it has openttd in its url
14:28<andythenorth>I don't spend much time in the ottd wiki, and devzone is where to go for newgrf projects
14:28*andythenorth is not bothered about neutrality
14:28<@Yexo>but almost every project on the devzone already has an open license
14:29<@Yexo>so the people who read it there already got the message
14:29<andythenorth>a forum sticky might be useful
14:29<andythenorth>this would be more than just 60pixel red type saying 'use a good license' :)
14:30*andythenorth votes ttdp or devzone
14:30<andythenorth>ttdp is more likely to provoke...argument
14:30<@Terkhen>if you are going to get arguments you will get them no matter where you post it
14:30*andythenorth doesn't mind arguments
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>devzone might be more likely to be completely unknown to newcomers
14:31<andythenorth>except from a few people
14:31<andythenorth>another way of answering the question: where will newgrf spec be maintained?
14:31<@Terkhen>besides, ttdp is still the official place, until those talks about moving the specs to a unified wiki become something real
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>devzone isn't very google-friendly either
14:32<andythenorth>where is nml spec maintained?
14:32<andythenorth>and nml docs?
14:32<andythenorth>he :)
14:33<@Terkhen> <-- devzone, but the nml specs do not contain everything in the newgrf specs
14:33<andythenorth>which will be the recommended authoring language? nfo or nml?
14:33<andythenorth>or do we sit on the fence :P
14:33<Rubidium>maybe start a
14:34<Rubidium>with for nfo specs
14:34<Rubidium> for nml specs
14:34<Rubidium> for development stuff
14:34<andythenorth>the domain appears to be available
14:34<Rubidium> for a crawler/bananas kind of thing
14:34*andythenorth can't tell when Rubidium is serious / satirical :P
14:35<@planetmaker>it might be politically the right thing - as stupid as it is
14:35<@Terkhen>nml is still not feature complete
14:35<andythenorth>someone got an account with a domain provider?
14:35<@peter1138>orudge :p
14:35<andythenorth>mine are all work related and the paperwork is a hassle :P
14:35<Rubidium>andythenorth: I think Olivia's father does
14:36<@peter1138>(i do too)
14:36<andythenorth>I'll happily pay hosting
14:36<andythenorth>and renewal
14:36<@Terkhen>you should give the matter more thought before jumping on it :P
14:36<andythenorth>that's not how I got to be as rich and famous as I am :P
14:36*andythenorth has acres of pointless domains
14:36<andythenorth>and is neither rich nor famous
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14:37<andythenorth>if someone buys that, I'll paypal the cost
14:37<andythenorth>meanwhile, I wanted to start a page on what we think makes a nice newgrf
14:37<@planetmaker>just do it, if you like ;-)
14:38<andythenorth>I could put a page on my site, but it's not very editable by others (unless you are aware of the security holes in the framework)
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>was that a challenge? :p
14:40<andythenorth>I hope not
14:41<@planetmaker>andythenorth: do you need another VM? :-P
14:41<andythenorth>he :)
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14:44<Rubidium>oh... I forgot
14:45<Rubidium>with grfcodec/nforenum, grfmaker, m4nfo (if it ever were released), ...
14:46<Rubidium>but I really think it'd be a good way to unite the different newgrf related things
14:47<@Terkhen>although I like Rubidium's idea :)
14:47<@planetmaker>yes. It's politically sane
14:47<@planetmaker>and would give also control to more than one person over the newgrf wiki
14:49<Rubidium>and I guess Owen is willing to pay the domain costs from OpenTTD's donations
14:50<@planetmaker>should be feasible
14:50<@planetmaker>and affordable
14:50<andythenorth>or I'll kick some money in for it
14:50<andythenorth>I never donated to openttdcoop
14:50<andythenorth>despite trying many times :P
14:50<Rubidium>though it would be purely for NewGRF things I'd say
14:51<Rubidium>and the specs would be separate wiki instances; not sure whether there should be general wiki for non-spec stuff though (e.g. the many pages about ECS in the ttdp wiki)
14:52<@planetmaker>that doesn't make sense in the newgrf wiki
14:52<@planetmaker>that IMHO should move to the general openttd wiki
14:53<Rubidium>though, maybe, or, or something along that line would be fine as well
14:55<@peter1138>rather than
14:55<@peter1138>if possible
14:56<Rubidium>for what reasons?
14:57<andythenorth>subdomains seem to be out of fashion
14:57<andythenorth>can't remember why
14:57<andythenorth>probably a google related reason :P
14:58<andythenorth>meanwhile, does anyone want to kick at these while I eat / rescue my wife from a non-sleeping baby?
14:58<@Alberth>difference between . and / is too complicated for the general public :p
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15:02<andythenorth>what is the thinking currently on disabling default vehicles?
15:02<andythenorth>(if you are authoring a vehicle newgrf)
15:06<andythenorth>should a train set disable default trains?
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>depends on whether you provide a complete all-purpose set
15:08<andythenorth>there's a grf that re-enables them?
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes. sort of
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15:09<andythenorth>I've added all I can think of to that wiki page ^^
15:09<andythenorth>it's not exactly tablets of stone :P
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15:12<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: your forum suggestion wrt grf-crawler and bananas makes sense
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15:46<@orudge>, eh
15:46<@orudge>we could do that
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15:59<Bilge>How are you supposed to know what the best AI is to download
16:01<Rubidium>How are we supposed to know what you think is "best" for an AI?
16:07<Bilge>I forgot you're too robotic to be subjective :3
16:08<Bilge>On that note, is it possible for ordinary humans to understand the signalling system?
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>we're totally subjective, alright. but why would you assume that would be in your interest?
16:09<Bilge>I thought someone might be followed the AI development and have an opinion on which one is the best to use
16:10<@Yexo>Bilge: I'm sure several people have on opinion on that
16:10<@Yexo>I'm also sure that if you ask 5 different people you'll get 5 different answers
16:10<@Yexo>in other words: each answer is useless for you
16:10<@planetmaker>Bilge: then read the NoAI subforum
16:10<@planetmaker>there are AI tests there
16:10<Rubidium>There was a competition that showed that Rondje is the best
16:11<@planetmaker>one that NoCAB is best
16:11<@planetmaker>one that AIAI is best
16:11<@planetmaker>one that... AdmiralAI is best
16:11<Rubidium>but undoubtedly if you're playing with it you'll get extremely annoyed by it
16:11<@planetmaker>... half of them one one competition at least :-)
16:11*Terkhen likes towncars
16:11<@planetmaker>s/one one/won one/
16:12*Eddi|zuHause recommends playing without any AI
16:12<Rubidium>as Rondje is a parasite AI; it lets other AIs build routes and then starts competing with you for cargo on that exact route
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>someone should do a "Rondje om de kerk" fork and call it "Mit der Kirche ums Dorf"
16:14<@planetmaker>are you sure you translate it correctly, Eddi|zuHause ?
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>not word-by-word, but from how i understood it it's a similar meaning
16:15<Rubidium>lol ;)
16:15<@planetmaker>not quite afaik
16:17<Rubidium>"rondje om de kerk" is famous because of train drivers who didn't want to drive the same route every day, so losely it translates to driving "circles around the church"
16:18<Rubidium>not that many routes in the NL are circular
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>the german "mit der Kirche ums Dorf" means making something unnecessarily complicated (and arriving back where you started)
16:19<Rubidium>that's something different
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16:20*planetmaker never heard that alleged proverb
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>the opposite of that is "die Kirche im Dorf lassen" [slowing down the pace (of a discussion)]
16:22<Rubidium>actually, I don't think there's a circular route in the NL at all
16:24<@planetmaker>good night
16:25<@Terkhen>good night planetmaker
16:32<Sacro>can i change "build on slopes" in a running game?
16:32<Sacro>it seems to be disabled :\
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>did you try?
16:34<frosch123>you can only in single player
16:34<frosch123>multiplayer is not allowed, because that setting is exposed to newgrfs
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16:35<Eddi|zuHause>someone should do a "screws up your game (do not use!)" grf :p
16:35<Sacro>frosch123: oh right :\
16:35<andythenorth>hello DanMacK
16:35<George>Does anybody know how to read several layers from PSD into PNG by a script?
16:35<DanMacK>Hey Andy
16:35<andythenorth>George: planetmaker figured that out recently using gimp
16:36<andythenorth>with rules
16:36<@Yexo>George: planetmaker implemented that recently with gimp
16:36<andythenorth>you could use a photoshop action to do it
16:36<George>yes and no
16:36<George>We had a large discussion with him today
16:36<George>He found how to get it by layer number
16:37<George>but he does not know how to read them by layer name
16:37<andythenorth>if it were possible, I could rethink my workflow for vehicle grfs
16:37<@Yexo>George: do you have an example psd file I could do a few tests with?
16:38<George>andythenorth: photoshop action to do it <- how to run it from bat file?
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>gnah... this download never ends... :(
16:38<andythenorth>George: not sure
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16:38<andythenorth>on a mac photoshop can be scripted
16:38<andythenorth>probably on other OS too
16:39<George>andythenorth: there are actions in photoshop, but where are scripts?
16:39<George>I have Photoshop 7 - may be it is too old?
16:40<welshdragon>in Linux, where do I put my openttd.cfg?
16:40<welshdragon>I've forgotten ;/
16:40<George>andythenorth: if it were possible, I could rethink my workflow for vehicle grfs<- I suppose we were speaking about similar topic :)
16:40<andythenorth>George: same version as me
16:40<andythenorth>I haven't researched this idea at all yet
16:40<welshdragon>(it's been 8 months since i last used Linux)
16:40<andythenorth>but it would make cargo sprites etc much easier to output
16:41<Rubidium>welshdragon: in the same place as on windows, i.e. where the readme says it should be
16:42<George>andythenorth: I'll have a look
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16:42<welshdragon>yeah, I need to not be in root
16:43<George>andythenorth: - I do not see this menu in photoshop 7
16:44<andythenorth>George: maybe this?
16:44<+glx>welshdragon: ~/.openttd
16:45<@Terkhen>George: we have a working example on opengfx+ road vehicles, it uses GIMP and as you mentioned it only works with layer numbers
16:46<@Terkhen>layer names would be more interesting :)
16:46<George>Terkhen: I had a large discussion with planetmaker today (last 3 hours).
16:46<Rubidium>maybe there's some caveat, like layer names not being enforced to be unique or something similar?
16:46<George>Rubidium: Yes, they are not unique
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16:46<@Terkhen>ok, then you already know what I could tell you about the script :)
16:47<George>but it is not a problem
16:47<George>even photoshop actions pick up the first one with a name specified
16:47<George>the same would be fine for a script too
16:51<welshdragon>~/.openttd doesn't exist :/
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16:52<George>andythenorth: George: maybe this? <- downloaded and installed, but do not see such menu :(
16:53<Bilge>I'm trying to create a server but it doesn't seem to be binding to my Internet IP - I've opened the port 3979 but nobody can connect because it seem to only be bound to my local IP :(
16:54<welshdragon>used mkdir
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16:56<George>andythenorth: If you would find a way to move data from layers by names from PSD to PNG with scripting - please let me know!
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: by default it binds to all incoming interfaces
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: unless you override that
16:57<andythenorth>George: did you find the documentation with that scripting plugin?
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: also you must add port forwarding in your router/modem
16:58<andythenorth>George: there's a pdf manual with the mac version of the plugin
16:59<andythenorth>it's not an ideal solution as it's mac / windows only
16:59<andythenorth>a cross-platform solution would be better
17:01<andythenorth>George: can you do it with a photoshop action?
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>"homage (french for 'theft')"
17:01<andythenorth>I might try that one time
17:01<andythenorth>not today
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>"revival (english for 'theft')"
17:01<andythenorth>I already had an action for exporting pcx when they were needed
17:01<Bilge>Eddi: I have port forwarded on my router
17:02<josepr83>andythenorth: Is this what you are taiking about ->
17:02<andythenorth>something like that yes
17:03<George>andythenorth: George: can you do it with a photoshop action? <- I can do an action that would assemble sprite from PSD and save it as PNG, but I would need an action for every sprite. Not a thing I want to do :(
17:03<andythenorth>George: this is for industries?
17:03<josepr83>I thought Fireworks could make a PNG homologous to the PSD in Photoshop.
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: both TCP and UDP?
17:05<George>andythenorth: Yes
17:05*andythenorth thinks that players should be able to pay to allow adding newgrf to a running game :P
17:06<andythenorth>George: I considered automating psd->png for FIRS, I think it's way too hard
17:06<@Terkhen>Bilge: try
17:06<andythenorth>I draw each building as one piece, then they have to be cut - well - as you know ;)
17:06<andythenorth>so an action might never work
17:07<andythenorth>on the other hand, vehicles are all to a template, so cargos are a good case for an action
17:07<George>josepr83: Would it be possible to run script outside Photoshop? (it may be running in background)
17:07*andythenorth -> bed
17:07<andythenorth>good night
17:07<George>or call Photoshop to run a script
17:07<josepr83>I don't think so. The scripts were made to work via PS.
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17:09<George>I have to go to bad, Bye!
17:09<josepr83>Happy going to 'bad'.
17:09<josepr83>And this:
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17:10<@Terkhen>good night George
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17:21<Bilge>Why are my glasses normal now instead of shades? Can't you choose your glasses type? D:
17:21<Bilge>Oh wait there it is
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>use ones with polarization filters
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17:47<@Terkhen>good night
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18:14<Bilge>How do you password your company?
18:15<Zuu>Click the button with a man in a hat in the menu bar
18:15<Zuu>So that you show the company window
18:15<Zuu>There you have a button to set password.
18:16<Zuu>You may also set a default password in your openttd.cfg and you will no longer have to worry about remembering to set a password.
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18:39<Bilge>Oh yeah, but only when the game is started in multi
18:41<Zuu>How would password protection make sense in single player?
18:43<Cursarion^>no one messing with his game
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18:44<@Yexo>yes, only it's singleplayer, that means the savegame is on his computer, so nobody could mess with it anyway
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19:05<Zuu>If he is on a shared computer, he should seek general solutions in his operating system.
19:06<Sacro>Anyone built chillcore patchpack against 1.1?
19:10<Bilge>I was just remarking that I hadn't noticed the button before because I mostly spent time in single player so didn't expect to find it there in multi
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19:16<anythingffs>guys, i have a version conflict between my server and a map\scenario i want to run, is there a way to update the maps to the latest version?
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19:19<anythingffs>or do i have to find the 0.7 version that the map works with?
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19:43<anythingffs>why would a not be able to support multiplayer?
19:44-!-anythingffs is now known as alba0andy
19:44-!-alba0andy is now known as alba-andy
19:44<alba-andy>dbg: [net] The loading savegame was paused due to an error state.
19:44<alba-andy>dbg: [net] The savegame cannot be used for multiplayer!
19:44<alba-andy>dbg: [net] Loading game failed, so a new (random) game will be started!
19:47<+glx>missing newgrf maybe
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19:48<alba-andy>ah, ive edited the scenario to remove the extra grfs
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19:51<alba-andy>still nothing
19:51<alba-andy>same error
19:52*hgnmu128 wants to ask alba-andy what error it is, but waiting.
19:54<Zuu>alba-andy: do you use the same OpenTTD for playing as well as for your server?
19:54-!-a1270 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:54<Zuu>If not, the NewGRF problem could be likely to be the cause.
19:55-!-hgnmu128 [~hgnmu128@] has left #openttd [Remote host closed the connection]
19:55<Zuu>Another problem is if you have built the scenario in a patched version of OpenTTD.
19:56<Zuu>Btw, why version 0.7 and not the last stable (1.1)?
19:56<alba-andy>im using 1.1 on the server but the map doesnt seem to support more than 0.7
19:57<alba-andy>i tried opening it and resaving it in scenario editor (hoping that it would update the version) but the server still isnt having it
19:57<alba-andy>same error that appears above
19:58<Zuu>If a savegame from unpatched 0.7 where you have not modified the NewGRFs in-game does not work in 1.1, I would say that's a bug.
19:59<Zuu>But you said something above about changing NewGRFs in the game?
20:02<Zuu>You could also try to load the game in 1.1 in non-dedicated mode and use the feature to fetch missing NewGRFs from bananas.
20:02<Zuu>Good night
20:03<alba-andy>aye something not right here
20:04<alba-andy>thanks for the suggestions
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20:52<alba-andy>can someone take a look at this error message
20:52<alba-andy>im just trying to get a specific map loading in a 1.1 server
20:53<alba-andy>i doubt that there are any AI's installed, would that cause the crash?
20:53<alba-andy>... or the not loading
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21:31<alba-andy>is there a way to download content via the commandline?
21:31<alba-andy>aka shell access
21:34<alba-andy>i have found it impossible to move a .scn that works on a windows 1.1 to a linux 1.1 server, always same error
21:35<@Yexo>alba-andy: did you compile the version on your linux server yourself?
21:36<alba-andy>probably not
21:36<alba-andy>the server works with a random map
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21:37<@Yexo>you can try starting the server with -d sl=9 and see if you get more usable output
21:38<alba-andy>dbg: [sl] Nulling pointers
21:38<alba-andy>for 10 or so things
21:38<@Yexo>that's normal
21:38<alba-andy>dbg: [sl] All pointers nulled
21:38<alba-andy>dbg: [sl] Game Load Failed
21:38<alba-andy>File not readable
21:39<@Yexo>you have to give the complete filename as argument ,including .sav
21:39<@Yexo>so "openttd -g file.sav" or similar
21:41<alba-andy>does it have to be a .sav or is .scn the same?
21:41<alba-andy>tried both anyway, just wondering
21:41<@Yexo>not sure if you can directly load a scenario in a multiplayer server
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---Logclosed Mon Jun 06 00:00:35 2011