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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-06-06

---Logopened Mon Jun 06 00:00:35 2011
00:42<@planetmaker>moin
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02:56<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:33<Eddi|zuHause>why can't i run X programs from within a screen session?
03:34<Eddi|zuHause>i log in with ssh -X, and can run them from there. but when i start screen, then i can't anymore
03:34<__ln__>because your $DISPLAY is wrong
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03:37<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: but why would screen mess with my $DISPLAY?
03:38<__ln__>dunno
03:38<@peter1138>existing or new screen session?
03:38<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i tested both
03:41<@peter1138>existing won't work, but new should
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05:23<Bilge>vcs
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08:54<ashledombos>hi
08:55<@Terkhen>hi ashledombos
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08:57<ashledombos>I just wonder, would it be possible to upgrade mediawiki to a newer version?
08:58<ashledombos>not necessarily the last one, but there is some intersting stuff such as better organization of special pages
09:01<@planetmaker>An upgrade is always a hassle. But maybe that can be done soon-ish when we get a better server
09:02<@planetmaker>anything you miss in particular, ashledombos ?
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09:09<ashledombos>planetmaker: not really a single thing, but many little things :p but no problem, this version is good enough anyway
09:10<@planetmaker>the better server might be nearer to us than one might assume ;-)
09:10<@Belugas>hi
09:10<@planetmaker>hi Belugas
09:11<@Terkhen>hi Belugas
09:12<@Belugas>hi guys :)
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09:20<ashledombos>hi Belugas :)
09:20<@Belugas>good day sir :)
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10:16<Eddi|zuHause>"44 of 58 french nuclear power stations may need to shut down due to dry, hot weather"
10:17<@planetmaker>"grundlast-tauglich" :-P
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10:51<@Belugas>Dave W ? a God? God...
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10:55<V453000>:)
10:55<@planetmaker>Belugas, do you know Terry Pratchet's disc world?
10:55<@Terkhen>of fools? :P
10:55<@planetmaker>Then you also know what god can be ;-)
10:58<TWerkhoven>oooh, discworld
10:58<@planetmaker>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_gods#Small_gods
10:58<@planetmaker>:-D
10:58<TWerkhoven>we got em all here
10:59<TWerkhoven>though we can't seem to find thief of time atm
10:59<@planetmaker>I got bored after half a dozen novels, it got repetitive. But it's good
11:01<Rubidium>Belugas: he's probably dyslexic
11:15<@Belugas>planetmaker : no, does not ring a bell. Rubidium: I'd say delirious ;)
11:16<Rubidium>Belugas: dog: a) a worthless or contemptible person, b) fellow, chap <a lazy dog> <you lucky dog>
11:16<@Belugas>:)
11:22<@peter1138>ah, pterry
11:23<@peter1138>discworld's less fantasy these days
11:44<+glx><Eddi|zuHause> "44 of 58 french nuclear power stations may need to shut down due to dry, hot weather" <-- yes, water level in rivers is too low
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13:19<Wolf01>evenink
13:19<@planetmaker>hello Wolf01
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13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: translators * r22545 /trunk/src/lang/ (brazilian_portuguese.txt dutch.txt):
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: dutch - 37 changes by Parody
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 11 changes by Tucalipe
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14:22<andythenorth>hola
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14:23<@Terkhen>hola andythenorth
14:23<andythenorth>que tal?
14:23<andythenorth>¿
14:24<@Terkhen>programando cosas muy confusas :P
14:24<andythenorth>spanish is quite efficient
14:24<andythenorth>it uses fewer words like 'is'
14:25<andythenorth>english-as-commonly-used is less efficient
14:25-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
14:25<@Terkhen>but words are usually a lot longer, in english you can say more writing less
14:26<andythenorth>yup
14:26*Terkhen is close to a working implementation of town persistent storage
14:26<andythenorth>ooh
14:26<@Terkhen>where working != nice :P
14:26<andythenorth>electricity :P
14:26<andythenorth>that would be shiny
14:27<andythenorth>although with that + YACD my head might explode
14:27<@Terkhen>after this is tested, made nice and done, I plan to review the proposed variables and callbacks for town control
14:27<@planetmaker>holla andythenorth
14:28<andythenorth>Terkhen: if you're pursuing town growth, it might be worth some discussion about how a (theoretical) goals framework might work
14:28<@Terkhen>after the proposed specs are refined, I guess that posting them at the forums for wider reviews should be the next step
14:28<andythenorth>I'm not suggesting to implement it
14:28<@Terkhen>yes, that's a good point
14:29<@Terkhen>I'm not going to implement it either, but it should be taken into account
14:29<andythenorth>I wonder if there's a left-turn approach to a goals framework
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14:29<Hirundo>Is there any spec/code somewhere on the internets yet?
14:29<@Terkhen>probably the owners of all those CITY CHALLENGE servers have something to say regarding to the specs
14:29<andythenorth>like making it external to the game or such
14:29<@Terkhen>Hirundo: http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Town_Control
14:29<Hirundo>thanks
14:30<@Terkhen>I'm implementing option 1 for persistent storage, but for now an item has write access only to the town storage associated to its grfid
14:30<@Terkhen>and has read access to all
14:31<@Terkhen>we are not sure that giving write access to anything is a great idea, and that could be easily added later if deemed necessary
14:31<@Terkhen>s/anything/everything/
14:32<andythenorth>Terkhen: I couldn't do a full electricity implementation without write access for all
14:32<andythenorth>but I could do a near-enough version
14:33<@Terkhen>why?
14:33<@Terkhen>do you need multiple newgrfs for it?
14:33<andythenorth>probably worth explaining how electricity would work in my idea
14:33<@Terkhen>ok :)
14:34<andythenorth>any power-plant of any kind in industry newgrf(s) would write to a town storage register (probably once a month, or when production cb runs)
14:34<andythenorth>in my simple model it only has to write 01h if there was electricity, as I don't care about the amounts (and that will lead to tiresome arguments with electromagnetic equations being produced left, right and centre)
14:35<andythenorth>the register is zeroed once a month
14:35<andythenorth>then any industry or house that wants electricity looks in the town register to see if there is electricity
14:35<andythenorth>so problems:
14:35<andythenorth>(1) how to zero the register
14:36<andythenorth>(2) interaction between say industry grf and town grf
14:36<Rubidium>store the date instead of 1?
14:36<andythenorth>and then measure offsets? would work
14:36<Rubidium>yep
14:36<andythenorth>'electricity last produce' xx-yy-zz
14:37<andythenorth>Terkhen: their would be a specific grf for town growth?
14:37<andythenorth>there /s
14:37<Rubidium>int diff = cur_date - prod_date;
14:37<@Terkhen>hmm... I don't see the need to support power plants from different newgrfs at once (although many industry newgrfs allowing to enable that common behaviour would be nice), but the industry-house communication for this is a valid case
14:37<Rubidium>if (diff < 0) cheater!
14:37<Rubidium>if (diff < 30) good boy!
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14:38<Rubidium>else want power, damnit!
14:38<andythenorth>Terkhen: if there is a town grf && that has it's own registers && a monthly cb, there is no problem
14:38<@Terkhen>andythenorth: another option that we discussed was to set some GrfIDs as common storage, for example 0xFFXXXXXX
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14:39<andythenorth>yes that would work too
14:39<andythenorth>I think there are probably multiple valid routes
14:39<andythenorth>I dislike multiple things writing to same registers
14:39<andythenorth>it's recipe for disaster
14:39<andythenorth>I have caused bugs in my own grf with persistent storage collisions
14:39<Rubidium>imo this would be a prime example of some shared usage of a register. However, I would say that these shared bits *MUST* be documented in the nfo specs
14:39<andythenorth>having to account for other authors is Bad Idea
14:40<andythenorth>are labels out of the question?
14:40<andythenorth>the other way to think about this: is electricity even a good idea?
14:42<frosch123>it does not matter whether it is a good idea or not. if it is possible someone will do it :p
14:43<andythenorth>not if it's not possible :P
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14:43<Hirundo>frosch123: that's rule 34....
14:43<andythenorth>we could add un-features :P
14:43<frosch123>but yes, if there are common variable writeable by many, it should not end up like cargo classes :p
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14:44<frosch123>thus it is a good idea to first let some grfs try some stuff in their private area
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14:45<@Terkhen>yes
14:45<frosch123>to gain experience
14:46*andythenorth tries to create a case for vehicles to write to town storage
14:47<andythenorth>he
14:47<andythenorth>real transport companies name ships and trains after cities sometimes
14:47*andythenorth wonders how town storage supports that
14:47<andythenorth>:D
14:48<frosch123>i guess it is a good idea to not make towns accessible to vehicles :p
14:48<andythenorth>ho
14:49<andythenorth>if the town has no electricity, all the trams could stop :P
14:49<andythenorth>maybe railtypes need access to town storage too
14:49<andythenorth>with a cb to set powered / unpowered
14:50<andythenorth>if towns could store some value for 'maintenance'
14:50<frosch123>here railroad are supplied completely independent from houses/industries
14:50<andythenorth>we could use cb36 to make vehicles slower and less reliable :P
14:50<andythenorth>hmm
14:50<andythenorth>a maintenance truck could 'store' to a town
14:50<andythenorth>snow ploughs!
14:50<frosch123>the same in sweden and switzerland
14:51<andythenorth>fire trucks!
14:51<andythenorth>street sweepers!
14:51<frosch123>do not know about the supply of other railroads
14:51<andythenorth>never give someone like me a new feature to fool with :P
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14:52<@Terkhen>:D
14:52<@Terkhen>IIRC vehicles already have a PARENT
14:52*andythenorth thinks vehicles should be able to write to their town :D
14:52<@Terkhen>sorry, no parent.parent() :)
14:52<andythenorth>which is probably very horrible
14:52<andythenorth>they'd have to go via their current tile?
14:53<andythenorth>probably on every tick?
14:53<@Terkhen>huh, that would slow the game to a crawl
14:53<andythenorth>:D
14:54<andythenorth>hmm
14:54<andythenorth>what could objects do with towns?
14:54<andythenorth>¿
14:57<andythenorth>do objects have classes or such?
14:58<Rubidium>hai
14:58<Rubidium>like station classes
14:58*andythenorth -> specs
14:59<andythenorth>newgrf.org :P
14:59<andythenorth>ho. This is nice http://pics.lakie.net/newObject-ActionStructure.png
14:59<Lakie>Bit out of date though
14:59<Rubidium>heh... that's what I wanted to say :(
14:59<andythenorth>so classes are organising features, they say nothing about the object
15:00<Lakie>Bt the basics of required bits are accurate enough
15:00<Lakie>Pretty much
15:00<Lakie>The method of grouping.
15:00<Lakie>And views would be the equivlent of sub grouping to some
15:00<andythenorth>so a town couldn't use those to express a preference between say....cellphone towers and ski-slopes
15:01<andythenorth>hmm
15:01<Lakie>Unlikely
15:01*andythenorth ponders evil
15:01<andythenorth>if a town had lighthouses, ships could sink less
15:02<andythenorth>this presupposes several unlikely things
15:02<Lakie>You could specify a specific class tag, but it would get messy.
15:04<andythenorth>hmm
15:04<andythenorth>a town could have prevailing weather :P
15:04*andythenorth may not be very helpful
15:12<@Terkhen>andythenorth: you are helpful, I'm getting a good idea of how town storage could be abused :P
15:12<andythenorth>I haven't considered what stations can do yet
15:13<andythenorth>ho
15:13<andythenorth>here's an easy one. cb39
15:13<andythenorth>construct a partial supply-and-demand economy
15:13<andythenorth>the demand side would be modelled by spot-rate calculations for cargo payment
15:14<andythenorth>on a per-town basis
15:14<andythenorth>the supply side wouldn't be modelled
15:14<andythenorth>this would play very badly with yacd :P
15:14<andythenorth>I suspect if I explore the 60+ vars, the demand side is close to possible already
15:16<andythenorth>I have run out of other interesting things to do
15:16<andythenorth>varying graphics by town might interest some, but is partly possible already
15:16<andythenorth>town control would allow it to be more controllable
15:22<@Terkhen>first house could check a certain variable and if not set, set it to something random that would determine buildings for that town?
15:24<andythenorth>yes
15:24<@Terkhen>cool
15:24<andythenorth>there needs to be some form of master control for a town though
15:24<andythenorth>not sure how that runs
15:25<andythenorth>probably a cb
15:25<andythenorth>runs every so many ticks
15:25<andythenorth>similar to industry production cb
15:26<@Terkhen>master control of what type? town growth?
15:26<andythenorth>yes
15:27<andythenorth>the town itself is likely to need storage, which other grfs will not be writing to
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15:29<@Terkhen>town callbacks should probably be able to access the persistent storage of the grfid that defines them
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15:30<andythenorth>hmm
15:30*andythenorth has an idea for permitting read-write between grfs
15:31<andythenorth>assume a public storage location, maybe the town
15:31<andythenorth>which all grfs can read-write to
15:31<andythenorth>with n locations
15:31<andythenorth>the convention for what to put in those locations is governed by a schema
15:31<andythenorth>(agreed between grf authors)
15:32<andythenorth>grfs can implement multiple schemas
15:32<andythenorth>but only one can be active at once
15:32<andythenorth>the determination of which schema is used is basically a vote system between the active newgrfs
15:32<andythenorth>most common schema wins
15:33<andythenorth>so schema A might say delivered food is in 01h, electricity supply is in 0Ah etc
15:33<andythenorth>schema B might say electricity is in 01h and number of ham sandwiches delivered is in 1Ah
15:34<andythenorth>schemas have unique ID (dword)
15:34<andythenorth>better or worse than a label system
15:34<andythenorth>?
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15:35<andythenorth>incidentally cargo labels are fine and good and work well. It's only cargo classes that are flawed
15:35<andythenorth>and those only by some poor implementation choices, the design principle is ok
15:41<@Terkhen>andythenorth: that would be the next step once that the feature is tested: allowing common write access between newgrfs
15:41<@Terkhen>common scheme decided between different authors might cause problems of compatibility with sets outside the group
15:42<andythenorth>but no scheme at all causes madness....
15:42<andythenorth>sets that can't subscribe to the prevailing schema in this game can't write
15:42<andythenorth>and possibly get disabled :P
15:43<@Terkhen>but for example, should FIRS stop working with house sets that don't follow its common scheme?
15:43<andythenorth>depends who's winning the scheme war in this game
15:44<andythenorth>if there is a town control grf, FIRS, and a house set
15:44<@Terkhen>IMO it should be optional
15:44<andythenorth>if town control grf + FIRS agree on schema, the house set loses
15:44<@Terkhen>if the newgrfs are not present, the feature is disabled
15:45<@Terkhen>I think that the industry sets should not control town control
15:45<@Terkhen>a town control NewGRF should implement a given scheme
15:45<@Terkhen>the town control author makes the set compatible with certain industry sets
15:45<@Terkhen>for example, if I create a "all towns require food for growth" scheme
15:45<@Terkhen>I could detect FIRS, or if OpenGFX+ Industries has its food chain enabled
15:46<andythenorth>how does the industry newgrf know where to write to?
15:47<andythenorth>hmm
15:47<@Terkhen>good question, I was forgetting that :P
15:47<andythenorth>storage location could be abstracted and treated as the internal business of the town newgrf
15:47<andythenorth>there could be a get/set cb
15:47<andythenorth>using labels or such
15:50<@Terkhen>why? town grf would access with its own grfid
15:51<@Terkhen>also, what to do if multiple newgrfs try to use the same town callbacks is not defined
15:51<@Terkhen>there are some pointers in the specs but I have to read them in more depth
15:55<frosch123>if possible their effects shall add up
15:56<frosch123>e.g. if there would be some general monthly callback, everyone shall be called
15:56<@Terkhen>for stuff like town growth that makes sense
15:56<@Terkhen>but what about town radius? I still don't know how exactly it works, but it does not sound like something that can add up
15:57<frosch123>yeah, for that one it makes not much sense
15:57<frosch123>though a grf could say, i do not want to change the defaults for this town, ask some other
15:58<@Terkhen>and then the next newgrf kicks in?
15:58<@Terkhen>that behaviour makes sense
15:58<@Terkhen>I don't think that mixing town controls newgrfs should be recommended anyways :P
15:59<frosch123>addition text could be useful for completely town-unrelated stuff
15:59<@Terkhen>for example?
16:00<frosch123>anyway, iirc other "generic callbacks" are also supposed to be called across multiple grfs
16:01<frosch123>Terkhen: a industry grf displaying: this town is too small for a bank, or this town is likely to spawn coal mines, or whatever
16:01<@Terkhen>oh, I see :)
16:01*Terkhen checks those generic callbacks
16:02<frosch123>not sure whether that mechanism is implemented in ottd though
16:02<andythenorth>there should be no equivalent of pool for town newgrfs
16:02<andythenorth>one and only one
16:02<andythenorth>anything else is asking for troubles
16:03<andythenorth>users *will* add multiple if they're not prevented from doing so
16:04<frosch123>andythenorth: you could archieve that by addinng callback flags for critical callbacks, and only allow one grf to enable them
16:04<frosch123>but you cannot say that in general
16:04<andythenorth>would you scan and disable town grfs if multiple were enabled?
16:04<@Terkhen>I guess that "Ambient sound effects" is a good example of generic callback, and it makes sense to chain it through different newgrfs
16:05<frosch123>e.g. take the "display cargo delivery in town gui"-callback. that is useful for town growth, but might as well be interesting for industry production changes
16:05<frosch123>Terkhen: yeah, but not implemented in ottd :p
16:05<@Terkhen>:D
16:05<@Terkhen>then I'll delete my note to check how it is implemented :P
16:05<frosch123>afaik we only have the AI newstation selection
16:06<@Terkhen>additional text should definitely be chained
16:06<frosch123>GetGenericCallbackResult seems to have some iterator
16:06<@Terkhen>decide town growth... probably, specially if it is a signed value
16:07<@Terkhen>cargo requirements could make things really complicated if chained
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16:33<Zuu>A thunderstorm just arrived and I was shooting as crazy with my camera to maybe get a lightning on picture. However, the best lightning came just seconds after I ended a long series of shots :-(
16:35<Zuu>But I guess it is really hard to get a shot at the right moment and I don't know exactly which lightning conditions to set up the camera for.
16:37<Zuu>Hmm, but maybe one should go for a really small shutter and low ISO so that the shutting time can be long to increase the chances of getting something.
16:38<@planetmaker>yes.
16:38<@planetmaker>several seconds exposure can help
16:39<Ammler>or use a camera which is faster as light
16:39<@planetmaker>but still, it's a lot of luck
16:39<Zuu>yea as you can't react and push the button when you see it.
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16:39<Rubidium>superhivision camera ;)
16:40<@planetmaker>Zuu: well. You just need to take images constantly ;-)
16:40<@planetmaker>20s exposure, 3s dead time, 20s exposure,... ;-)
16:40<Rubidium>= 33 megapixel camera @ 120 Hz
16:40<@planetmaker>and the best lightening of course is in the dead time or wrong direction
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16:42<@planetmaker>anyway... I'll hope for a thunderstorm. It just pretended to come...
16:42<@planetmaker>but good night for now :-)
16:43<andythenorth>bye planetmaker
16:43<@Terkhen>good night planetmaker
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17:06<bodis>hi
17:06-!-_goblin_ [~goblin@dslb-092-074-204-091.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:07<bodis>which train is better for 7 13 cargo carts, 2400 HP or 4000 HP?
17:07<bodis>well 7 lengh station :)
17:08<@Terkhen>hi bodis
17:08<bodis>hey
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17:12<bodis>so how about these trains?
17:12<bodis>is speed or horse power better?
17:13<@Terkhen>I don't know :P
17:13<bodis>hehe :)
17:13<@Terkhen>run some tests
17:13<bodis>k :)
17:13<@Terkhen>if the train does not get enough speed, add another engine or change to a model with better power
17:14<bodis>ohh you can have 2 engines?
17:14<bodis>omg :)
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17:15<@Terkhen>yes, buy another one and drag it to your existing train
17:15<@Terkhen>otherwise it is impossible to make those insanely long trains
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17:16<bodis>what do you mean insanely long?
17:16<bodis>14 is the max isnt it?
17:17<Ammler>128ish
17:17<Ammler>maybe 14 is without mammot setting?
17:18<+glx>HP is more important than max speed (especially with wagon speed limit)
17:18<@Terkhen>bodis: max lenght with mammoth trains is 64 tiles
17:18<bodis>OMG
17:18<bodis>Dont think I want that
17:18<Ammler>Terkhen: are you sure? :-)
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17:19<@Terkhen>not 100% because I have not tested right now, but I'm quite sure
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17:24<Bilge>Is there any reason to choose monorail over electric rail? They seem to support the same trains
17:25<@Terkhen>Bilge: that depends on your NewGRF selection
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17:25<@Terkhen>for example, with default trains they are quite different
17:30<Ammler>I am quite sure, we made trains longer 100 tiles
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17:31<Ammler>you don't have a station for this length, but well, that should be changed anyway :-)
17:31<Ammler>is station spread really a technical limit?
17:32<@Terkhen>Ammler: try with 1.1.1, trains are limited to 64 tiles via setting, I don't know what was the situation before and how are those extra long trains handled now
17:32<Ammler>hmm
17:32<Ammler>Terkhen: any reason for that low limit?
17:33<@Terkhen>there was a bug report associated to it IIRC
17:33<@Terkhen>sorry, my memory sucks :)
17:35<Ammler>well, it makes sense to limit it to station spread
17:35<Ammler>that limit sucks, though
17:37<Bilge>I still don't get what's different about monorail
17:37<Bilge>Are trains faster on monorail than electric or something?
17:37<Ammler>aren't?
17:38<@Terkhen>Bilge: as I said, it depends on your NewGRF selection
17:38<@Terkhen>for me, without any NewGRFs, monorail trains use different engines than electric and they are faster
17:39<@Terkhen>but without knowing what are you using we can only guess
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17:43<Ammler>oh, >5 was already mammoth
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17:50<Bilge>Can you see chat history in multiplayer?
17:51<Bilge>Or if you miss a message is it gone forever?
17:51<@Terkhen>open the console to check it, in my keyboard it is open by pressing º, I don't know which key is used in other layouts
17:53<Ammler>always left of one
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17:57<Bilge>Thanks
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17:58<Bilge>I'm sure I saw a setting somewhere to adjust new industry development... is it somewhere? I can't find it :(
17:58<Bilge>This scenario hasn't got any industries
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18:06<Wolf01>'night
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18:06<Bilge>Is there a setting to control the frequency of automatic new industry development?
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18:07<@Terkhen>Bilge: number of industries, but I don't know if you can change it in a running game or not
18:07<@Terkhen>good night
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18:22<Core_UK>oi
18:23<Bilge>Doesn't matter anyway this mod is bugged to hell, none of the new industries actually ever finish building
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>what's the easiest way to test connection speed (LAN)?
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, without any other influence factors like hd speed
18:28<joho>write a program that generates a lot of data in memory and sends it
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18:28<Vikthor>you could try fetching around files from/to ramdisk
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure that "write a program" is not "easy"
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18:34<joho>depends on your programming knowledge!
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18:36<Core_UK>depends on the program :P
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18:45<Eddi|zuHause>interesting, i switched cables, but didn't lose the connection
18:46<joho>irc connections doesnt reset until it detects a ping loss
18:46<joho>so if you're quick it just lets it pass
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>i meant _any_ connection, ssh and the like, or the ppp connection
18:48<joho>quicker than your own shadow
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>and i had to go through the wohle house, must have taken several tens of seconds
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>according to the log, 40 seconds
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18:51<Eddi|zuHause>but there must be something wrong with one of the cables, with one i got 500kB/s, with the other i get 11MB/s
18:51<joho>definitly sounds like its broken
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>it's a brand new stretch of cables, we installed them two days ago
18:52<joho>check the rj-45's
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>later
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21:32<hgnmu128>clear
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23:30<@planetmaker>moin
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---Logclosed Tue Jun 07 00:00:36 2011