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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-06-07

 --- Log opened Tue Jun 07 00:00:36 2011 00:43 -!- ar3k [~ident@ebt222.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:43 -!- ar3k [~ident@ebt222.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 00:43 -!- ar3k is now known as ar3kaw 00:53 -!- a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:56 -!- Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73ECD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:56 -!- Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73ECD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 01:14 -!- HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6A28E.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 01:54 <@Terkhen> good morning 01:56 -!- Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B76703.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 02:03 -!- Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73ECD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:05 -!- Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 02:15 -!- Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has joined #openttd 02:17 -!- Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0497ba.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:30 <@planetmaker> moin Terkhen 02:32 -!- ar3k [~ident@ech6.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 02:39 -!- ar3kaw [~ident@ebt222.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:51 -!- DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 02:52 -!- DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [] 02:55 -!- Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:57 -!- Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 02:58 -!- pugi [~pugi@p4FCC1E32.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 03:14 -!- Netsplit resistance.oftc.net <-> weber.oftc.net quits: PierreW, jonty-comp, Bjarte, Vadtec, Rediz, Sacro, CIA-11 03:15 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Sacro 03:16 -!- jonty-comp [~jonty@2a02:1680:0:1:2:1:1:6e01] has joined #openttd 03:20 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Rediz 03:20 -!- Netsplit over, joins: PierreW 03:21 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Bjarte, CIA-11, Vadtec 03:21 -!- CIA-10 [~CIA@cia.atheme.org] has joined #openttd 03:22 -!- CIA-11 [cia@cia.atheme.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:22 -!- a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 03:26 -!- Bjarte_ [bjarte@playing.OpenTTD.no] has joined #openttd 03:27 -!- Bjarte [bjarte@playing.OpenTTD.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:27 -!- Vadtec [vadtec@i.am.vadtec.net] has left #openttd [] 03:27 -!- Vadtec [vadtec@i.am.vadtec.net] has joined #openttd 03:27 -!- Bjarte_ is now known as Bjarte 03:33 -!- Netsplit synthon.oftc.net <-> weber.oftc.net quits: Vadtec 03:33 -!- ashledombos [~ashledomb@marvin-18-230.cnt.nerim.net] has joined #openttd 03:36 -!- Vadtec [vadtec@i.am.vadtec.net] has joined #openttd 03:45 good morning 03:45 <@Terkhen> hi dihedral 03:48 -!- roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 04:08 <@planetmaker> oi dihedral 04:11 -!- TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 05:19 -!- sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 05:32 :-) 05:41 -!- keky___ [~stefan@p5098b65a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 05:41 m 05:41 -!- Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 06:00 -!- aZ [~Miranda@5ad93c65.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 06:01 guys, im trying to load a map on my VPS server but I receive the following error message http://pastebin.com/pYZLgEd4 06:02 <@peter1138> does it load locally on your pc? 06:03 yeah mate, on Windows tho 06:03 VPS is ubuntu, incase that matters 06:03 ive been trying for 2 days 06:03 <@peter1138> missing newgrfs on the server? 06:04 mmm, not sure 06:04 can i check that from the shell? 06:04 or commandline 06:06 <@Terkhen> that error is quite strange 06:07 <@Terkhen> oh, there is another in the middle 06:07 <@Terkhen> aZ: you changed NewGRFs ingame probably 06:08 there are no newgrfs when I run it from my local machine 06:08 when i look at it in scenario editor 06:08 <@Terkhen> which version are you running on windows and which one at your server? 06:09 both 1.1 06:09 <@Terkhen> the savegame is quite old, right? 06:09 <@Terkhen> could you upload it somewhere so we can check it? 06:10 i can but maybe we should check ive got it right 06:11 <@planetmaker> the savegame must be quite old 06:12 <@Terkhen> even if it is old it should be loaded correctly, but it might have some bug that is detected in recent versions 06:12 i downloaded a scenario file that was for 0.7, i opened it in 1.1 scenario editor and saved it. i then started the scenario and made the sav which I uploaded 06:12 <@planetmaker> oh... scenario files may be arbitrarily tempered with 06:12 <@planetmaker> some on bananas are _quite_ ugly, if not unusable 06:13 <@planetmaker> :-( 06:13 ah, was confused with the difference between .scn an .sav 06:14 <@planetmaker> there's none ;-) 06:14 <@planetmaker> but what bothers me with your paste is that generating the random map failed 06:14 <@planetmaker> Or do you get successfully a (random) map? 06:15 <@planetmaker> do you have a link to the sav / scn in question? 06:16 yeah ive successfully test a random map, connected to it fine 06:16 this scn http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=106933&sid=cf9b25bd2434295cd86308acb7999ddf 06:17 i needed version 2 of this map because it uses more Scottish town names 06:18 from the page at http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=42124 06:18 * peter1138 wonders if nibbling on coffee beans is perhaps not the best idea 06:18 I've missed something? 06:18 <@Terkhen> I can't find many of the NewGRFs on that scenario on the online content 06:19 <@planetmaker> neither I 06:19 ah 06:19 <@Terkhen> are you sure you have those? 06:19 lol, no 06:19 sorry 06:19 <@Terkhen> well, this was the first question that was asked :P 06:19 <@planetmaker> ^ 06:19 <@Terkhen> if you don't have all NewGRFs games will fail 06:19 dont have them local either but the map still works? 06:20 <@Terkhen> no, your game will fail at some point 06:20 <@planetmaker> aZ, locally it *might* work. But a network server has to have in all cases 100% the exact matching NewGRFs. Also compatibility doesn't suffice 06:21 gads 06:21 what about finding those newgrfs? 06:21 yous got access to an archieve or something? 06:22 <@planetmaker> Many from that are not in our online content archive. 06:22 <@planetmaker> you gotta search forums or grfcrawler for it. Probably unsuccessful, too, though 06:22 <@planetmaker> I haven't heart of many of those :-P 06:23 <@Terkhen> I would ask the scenario creator directly 06:23 how about editing the scenario to remove those newgrfs? 06:24 <@planetmaker> newgrfs are part of the map... 06:25 one of them was viaduct.grf for example, wouldnt mind if there wasnt ciaducts 06:26 damn, thats annoying 06:26 thanks for all the help guys 06:26 <@planetmaker> us a height map ;-) 06:34 -!- aZ [~Miranda@5ad93c65.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: He who asks a question may be a fool for five minutes, but he who never asks a question remains a fool forever.] 06:40 -!- Bilge [~bilge@92.28.197.104] has joined #openttd 06:41 Is there a newgrf that adds a lot more working industry types? There was a pack that came with the UK scenario but it doesn't work 06:41 <@Yexo> firs, ecs and pbi 06:41 <@planetmaker> firs, ecs newgrfs, pbi 06:41 <@Yexo> ;) 06:42 <@planetmaker> opengfx+ industries actually, too. You can there combine the default industries somewhat arbitrarily 06:42 <@planetmaker> thus you'll have more, too 06:43 -!- Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause 06:43 damn... i was too quick in the shop, and grabbed fanta mango... 06:43 So there's three separate projects? 06:43 Or do they work together somehow 06:43 they don't work together 06:43 <@Terkhen> they are stand alone 06:43 <@Yexo> you can only use one of them at the same time 06:44 <@Yexo> if you mean they work together as in share work: some of the graphics are shared IIRC 06:44 <@planetmaker> they'll deactivate in the presence of other industry newgrfs 06:44 No I meant can you combine them 06:44 <@planetmaker> Not at all. Don't even try ;-) 06:44 <@Yexo> Bilge: there is a limit of 32 different cargo types. Each of those newgrfs is already close to that limit (but each uses some different cargo types) 06:45 I don't see a section on the forums for newgrfs 06:45 Where can I find them? 06:45 <@planetmaker> in the newgrf section ;-) 06:45 <@planetmaker> also call graphics section 06:46 <@planetmaker> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=66 06:46 They are more than just graphics though right? They also contain logic 06:46 <@Yexo> yes 06:46 <@planetmaker> yes. They can even be only logic 06:46 Bit misleading 06:46 <@planetmaker> or only graphics 06:46 <@planetmaker> Yes, it is 06:46 <@planetmaker> historical reasons, I guess 06:47 <@Yexo> previously they were in the "ttdpatch graphics" section, that was even more confusing 06:47 <@planetmaker> :-) 06:47 <@planetmaker> hm... maybe it should be renamed to Transport Tycoon Add-ons Development :-) 06:47 <@planetmaker> or s/Add-ons/NewGRFs/ 06:47 Do you have an opinion on which of those three is the best, i.e. most comprehensive? Save me time trying to find a thread for each of them 06:48 <@planetmaker> Bilge, as co-author of both FIRS and OpenGFX+Industries I might be biased ;-) 06:48 :3 06:48 You might also be correct 06:48 -!- Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 06:48 <@planetmaker> it really depends, though. They all three are quite different from how they influence the game and what playing style they 'require' 06:48 <@Yexo> Bilge: neither of them is best. PBI is most strict with stockpile limits, that is why I personally don't like it. Other find that a very good feature however 06:49 I noticed that both of you listed them in the same order, maybe that's subliminaly your order of preference :3 06:49 <@Yexo> opengfx+industries has the least changes from the default industries, I'd strongly recommend it over just using the default industries as it improves the graphics in several situations 06:49 Stockpile limits? Like how much is waiting in a station? 06:49 <@planetmaker> no. for processing at an industry 06:49 <@Yexo> no, how much you can deliver to an industry per month 06:49 <@planetmaker> :-) 06:50 Are you twins? 06:50 <@Yexo> so for a steel mill you have to deliver both coal and iron ore. If you stop supplying iron ore the steel mill will stop accepting coal after a while 06:50 <@planetmaker> we've only met once in our lives ;-) 06:50 At birth? :D 06:50 <@planetmaker> one year ago ;-) 06:50 Wow, so young 06:50 <@Terkhen> :D 06:50 <@planetmaker> :-) 06:51 <@planetmaker> Bilge, I suppose that 90% of the channel's participants here are younger than me. At least ;-) 06:52 I kind of like that mechanic Yexo since it makes more sense but I'm surprised that a "graphics pack" can introduce such a significant feature 06:52 -!- Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has joined #openttd 06:52 I am not accustomed to the power of newgrfs 06:52 <@planetmaker> consider newgrfs not graphics but mods 06:53 <@Yexo> that is exactly why questions "which is best" cannot be universally answered :) 06:53 I wish they were called that since "newgrf" is a really strange name particularly for a newcomer 06:53 <@planetmaker> and as 'mods' they're also integral part of a map - and cannot be removed or added after game start ;-) 06:53 <@planetmaker> Bilge, you're totally right :-) 06:54 I guess you have no way of knowing which mods work together 06:54 i.e. no way to prevent conflict than by trial and error 06:54 <@planetmaker> But this format developed over the last >6(?) years or so 06:55 <@planetmaker> thus it grew from simple graphic replacements, over simple changes of few things to what we have now. And still extend now 06:55 I appreciate that but it's never too late to give it a new name and simply call them mods going forward 06:55 <@planetmaker> Bilge, you can basically only test. Or read the Newgrf descriptions 06:56 <@planetmaker> Bilge, also true. But... I have the feeling it's not time yet. This format is shared with another game - which makes things even more complicated 06:56 <@Yexo> Bilge: one of the problems I have with "mods" is that "mod" can be more easily confused with source code patches 06:56 <@Yexo> which are also "mods" in a way 06:56 plugins? 06:56 <@planetmaker> also good name. But what about AIs then? 06:56 <@Yexo> no problem there I'd say 06:56 <@Yexo> just keep calling those AIs 06:57 <@planetmaker> they're also plug-ins of sorts ;-) 06:57 <@planetmaker> but sure 06:57 plugins-ai? 06:57 <@planetmaker> that's double naming 06:58 i suppose if banana's gets sections, ai's could get their own section just like infrastructure or trains, but still all would be plugins 06:58 -!- douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-101-128.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 06:58 <@planetmaker> they have their own there... 06:58 <@planetmaker> as do base grfs. and height maps and scenarios 06:58 <@planetmaker> that's why it's BaNaNaS 06:58 <@Yexo> TWerkhoven: AIs are not coded in the grf format, but in the squirrel language 06:59 ah 06:59 <@Yexo> there are also different rules for changing AIs in a running game 06:59 <@planetmaker> Base grfs and Newgrfs and NoAIs and Scenarios 06:59 <@Yexo> so they're conceptually different from newgrfs 06:59 What is the other game? 06:59 <@Yexo> TTDPatch 06:59 <@planetmaker> TTDPatch 06:59 <@planetmaker> :-D 06:59 That's a GAME? 06:59 It sounds like a patcher for the same game 06:59 <@Yexo> actually is a modification of the original transport tycoon deluxe game 07:00 Like something you would use to install mods because the game itself doesn't support such a feature 07:00 Some pretty poor naming conventions going on around here :P 07:00 <@Yexo> it is exactly that 07:00 <@Yexo> TTDPatch existed long before OpenTTD 07:01 <@Yexo> however OpenTTD has by now implemented almost all features TTDPatch has (and a lot more) 07:01 <@Yexo> noticeable missing feature is custom bridge heads 07:01 <@planetmaker> TTD is the common ancestor. TTDPatch was there around pretty soon then. And OpenTTD is a rewrite of the same game 07:02 <@planetmaker> but neither TTD nor TTDPatch are really much maintained anymore 07:02 <@planetmaker> thus OpenTTD is where nearly all development happens 07:03 OpenTTD is amazing by the way, really good job on that. I played the original game when I was a kid, still got it on Microprose CD, but OpenTTD makes the game accessible on todays systems while also breathing new life into the game. I can't live without autoreplace. I could put up with it when I was a kid but replacing mass amounts of old vehicles isn't fun 07:03 <@Yexo> Bilge: a few years ago the "advanced settings" menu was called "configure patches", that really was confusing 07:03 <@planetmaker> ^ 07:04 <@planetmaker> He, but now you also have much more vehicles and much larger maps. So sure, that needs new tools for mass-management ;-) 07:04 Speaking of advanced settings, I was sure there was a setting to control how frequently the game creates new industries during play but now I can't find it anywhere. DOes it exist? 07:04 <@Yexo> in difficulty options 07:04 <@planetmaker> only in the new game settings 07:04 <@planetmaker> hm, also there... I wonder how they relate :-) 07:04 I kind of dislike how scenarios bypass game settings 07:04 <@planetmaker> Bilge, they're that: 'scenarios'. Crafted to pose a challange 07:05 manually replacing engines isn't as problematic when you 07:05 are limited to 80 trains 07:05 and a tick takes 2 seconds 07:05 <@planetmaker> was 80 the limit? 07:05 in TTO, yes 07:06 80 trains, 80 rv, 40 planes, 40 ships iirc 07:06 -!- enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd 07:06 and 360 vehicles in total (including wagons) 07:06 There needs to be a new type that includes terrain and towns/industries then because sometimes I just want to play the scenario with my own settings but a height map doesn't include settlements and industries 07:06 <@Yexo> that is a work in progress (or at least was) by alberth 07:07 Bilge: yes, that is probably one of the next developments 07:07 <@planetmaker> it makes sense to have a newgrf-independent scenario type, yes 07:07 <@planetmaker> and setting-independent 07:08 <@planetmaker> a cross-breed of height map and scenario :-) 07:08 Have you noticed that when you browse the newgrf respository you get a nice description about what it does but after you've downloaded it you can't see that description any more 07:09 yes. 07:09 <@Yexo> yes 07:09 So if you end up with newgrfs in your library due to scenarios downloading them then you have no way to retroactively discover what they do 07:09 <@planetmaker> yes 07:09 i complained about that multiple times 07:09 <@Yexo> you can still read a description in the newgrf info window 07:09 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 07:09 Yeah but it's not the same one 07:09 <@Yexo> if the grf doesn't have a good description there, complain to the grf author 07:09 It's often missing or obscure 07:10 it was very restricted in length in the past 07:10 -!- Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has joined #openttd 07:10 <@Yexo> it's only limited by the amount of space available in the window 07:10 <@Yexo> which scales if you resize it, so that's not an argument anymore 07:10 yes, but that was like 3 lines in older TTDPatch 07:10 -!- tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@524B73C2.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:11 <@Yexo> and in openttd versions before the new newgrf window 07:11 and a majority of (important) GRFs are way older 07:12 but the readme viewer could solve that 07:12 You also have no way of visiting any links in descriptions, even by copying text 07:12 or a way to access the bananas description 07:12 <@Yexo> bananas description is also very limited in size 07:12 yep, copying or opening browser is ... non-trivial 07:13 -!- HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.165.131] has joined #openttd 07:13 <@planetmaker> Bilge, we'll need a way to copy&paste and open browsers on all OS ;-) 07:13 <@planetmaker> and opening browsers (which?) is not trivial 07:13 not "all" OSes, but the most common ones. 07:14 <@planetmaker> +supported ;-) 07:14 <@Yexo> linux variants are the hard part wrt opening a browser 07:14 I'm not too worried about opening the browser but being able to copy text is pretty important 07:14 Windows is probably easiest, but also Mac OS X, and various Linuxes (Debian, Ubuntu, Suse) with desktop environments (KDE, Gnome, other) 07:14 <@planetmaker> it may sound like not much, but it means to change A LOT, Bilge ;-) 07:14 Although I realise there's actually no selection and copying scheme in the game at the moment besides maybe the input boxes 07:15 Bilge: the implementation complexity is probably equal for both features 07:15 <@Terkhen> paste is actually implemented on windows 07:15 <@Terkhen> s/on/for/ 07:15 <@planetmaker> also on osx 07:15 Bilge: wagons can be selected, and vehicles drag&dropped 07:15 -!- Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:15 But not text 07:15 but that is probably not helpful 07:16 <@planetmaker> I can paste it on windows and osx 07:16 <@Terkhen> for linux I looked into paste support from SDL, it seems that the feature has been in development since 2004 or so 07:16 <@planetmaker> helpful for server IPs 07:16 Bilge: getting it to mark the text is almost trivial 07:16 Really? So what's the complication? Cross-platform clipboards? 07:16 Bilge: getting the text into the clipboard is problematic 07:17 <@planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, if you can read the clipboard it should by its sister or brother routines also be feasible to write it... 07:18 <@planetmaker> I think half the work will be to enable the option to select texts... 07:18 It seems that ECS was the pack that came with the UK scenario that didn't work but the version is beta 5 from 2009 and when I look in the newgrf repository there is a version from just last month. I take it scenarios stay linked to a specific version? 07:18 <@planetmaker> maybe not, though 07:18 <@Yexo> Bilge: yes 07:19 Is there an easy way to upgrade the grfs for an out of date scenario? 07:19 <@planetmaker> none to no easy and definitely not reliable 07:19 -!- HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6A28E.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:19 <@planetmaker> updating industry grfs is a no-no 07:19 :( 07:20 -!- Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:20 <@Yexo> Bilge: it's impossible because newgrfs can contain so much logic 07:21 <@Yexo> industry type 0 could be a coal mine in version1 and a steel mill in version 2 of the same grf 07:21 So bananas is keeping track of all versions of a newgrf even though I can only browse the latest versions? 07:21 <@Terkhen> yes, we should have a way for decoupling scenarios from newgrfs 07:21 <@Terkhen> Bilge: yes 07:21 in theory, ECS grfs should be update-able 07:21 So what if I want to target a specific version to download? 07:21 <@Yexo> OpenTTD has no way of knowing the IDs have changed or how to link existing industries to the new ids 07:21 but we do not take warranty 07:21 <@Yexo> Bilge: you can't easily 07:21 -!- ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:21 <@Yexo> if you have a scenario / savegame / server that uses that specific version you can still download it 07:21 <@planetmaker> Bilge, the "latest" is what you need for new games. 07:22 <@planetmaker> if ... ^^ 07:22 Yexo: sure but what if the scenario has no industries at present, it only has loaded the old newgrfs for the industries, isn't there some way I can swap out the old ones for the latest versions? 07:22 <@planetmaker> nope 07:22 That's not too good 07:22 <@Yexo> enable the scenario developer setting, open grf window, remove old ones, add new ones 07:22 <@planetmaker> hm, no industries. Then yes 07:22 <@Yexo> ^^ might cause problems ranging from graphics glitches to crashes of openttd 07:23 <@Yexo> as soon as you do that consider that savegame unsupported 07:23 <@Yexo> so try for a small game, but don't do it for a game you plan to play for a long time 07:23 <@planetmaker> :-) that basically sums it up 07:23 Is there any particular reason why industries would have different IDs? I mean would the developer have to have made that change manually or are they "compiled" in some way such that the compiler assigns the IDs... keeping in mind I have no idea about newgrf development 07:23 <@Yexo> I've seen bug reports from people losing a game they'd played for 2 years (as in actual years, not game years) that way 07:24 <@Yexo> the developer would have to change that 07:24 <@planetmaker> and not only one of those reports... 07:24 Are newgrfs compiled or just packaged? 07:24 <@Yexo> my example above was a bit simplistic and not one that would happen normally, but it could be decided that the steel mill was no good industry and another one should be included 07:24 <@Yexo> compiled 07:24 <@planetmaker> Bilge, it needs manual change. But we've seen that. We've been there 07:24 <@Yexo> you can decompile them just as easily though, grfcodec does both 07:25 Is there any reason why ECS is about 10 newgrfs and FIRS is just conveniently in one? 07:26 Like a technical limitation or something? 07:26 <@planetmaker> a technical limitation of TTDPatch ;-) 07:26 So its pandering to obsolete technology? 07:27 <@planetmaker> depends on the meaning of 'obsolete' and whether you consider ttdpatch obsolete 07:27 <@planetmaker> It can also be argued to be convenience. You can thus easily select different industry sectors 07:27 <@Terkhen> for ECS it makes sense, you can select different combinations of industries easily 07:27 <@planetmaker> like a farming scenario, you just add ecs base, town and farms 07:28 -!- Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B76703.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:28 -!- Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B76703.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:30 But there's "base" and "base2" 07:31 I have no idea what this means and whether I'd need both. What happens if you forget to include base? Do you get a user friendly error message or does everything blow up 07:31 <@Terkhen> Bilge: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=ECSVectors 07:31 <@Yexo> not sure, I think the other ecs grfs will just disable them self if base is missing 07:33 Does the newgrf format support a "depedency" system? 07:33 <@planetmaker> no(t yet) 07:33 It seems like a good thing to have 07:34 <@planetmaker> not sure. Doesn't make things easier 07:34 <@planetmaker> a newgrf can check for the presence or not-presence of other newgrfs already 07:34 <@Terkhen> it can be supported already IMO 07:34 <@planetmaker> which is usually enough info 07:34 <@Terkhen> a NewGRF could disable itself if one of its dependencies is missing 07:34 <@planetmaker> including the other grf's configuration parameters, that is, of course 07:35 I'm just concerned with how the user is made aware about a grf disabling itself 07:35 <@planetmaker> try it. 07:35 <@Terkhen> a huge red warning appears 07:35 If I think to the WoW addon dialog that was pretty good 07:35 You can't enable an addon if its dependencies are missing and you're informed of exactly which ones are required 07:36 Disabling a dependency immediately greys out mods that require it 07:36 <@planetmaker> comparing something to WoW is like comparing it to building style from other planets to me ;-) 07:36 -!- Mazur [~mazur@5ED2BEAE.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:37 -!- Mazur [~mazur@5ED2BEAE.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 07:41 It'd be possible to add a 'dependency list' via action14 ... 07:41 <@planetmaker> yes 07:42 I don't know if there are any hard dependencies besides ECS, though 07:42 <@planetmaker> dbset extensions 07:42 <@planetmaker> there'll be ukrs add-ons maybe 07:42 In such cases disabling is fine, IMO 07:42 <@planetmaker> or other newgrfs modifying other existing ones 07:42 <@planetmaker> in the other cases IMHO, too 07:43 It's not like you really want the UKRS add-on, and consider the normal UKRS to be a side-effect 07:43 <@planetmaker> of course not :-) 07:44 <@planetmaker> I'm not yet convinced we need such system, though 07:44 <@Terkhen> "disable myself if one of these grfids is not present", it would also be nice to have "disable myself if one of these grfids is present" 07:44 <@Terkhen> but that can be done already 07:44 <@Yexo> a better solution is imo to add a "test" stage to newgrf loading 07:44 <@Yexo> that means all actionB errors can be detected while still in the main menu 07:45 Doesn't TTDP do the same already? 07:45 <@Yexo> in ttdpatch you can't change the newgrfs inside the game 07:45 <@planetmaker> it'd need a sand-box rather 07:45 <@Yexo> so there is doesn't matter at all 07:45 I'm sure there is a 'test' grf loading stage defined somewhere 07:46 planetmaker, you said you're part of the FIRS team, right? What's a "town industry"? 07:46 <@planetmaker> sorry, I'm missing a bit context :-) 07:46 <@Yexo> Hirundo: the idea is not original, it was discussed before 07:46 <@planetmaker> I think it's like shops, bakeries and alike 07:46 http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/economies 07:47 On this page, in italics in every section it says After discussing numerous times, town industries won't be implemented as houses. 07:47 But what the hell is a town industry 07:47 <@planetmaker> yes, shops, petrol stations, bakeries,... 07:47 <@Yexo> industries that only appear inside towns 07:47 from TTDP wki: Test: Called when user clicks to enable/disable file in the GRF Status Window to check which other files react to the change. Ignores all actions except 6, 7, 8, 9, B, D and E. 07:47 <@planetmaker> those cargo accepting things which are found usually in towns 07:47 That's basically what you want, right? 07:48 <@Yexo> yes, indeed 07:48 <@Yexo> only in the main menu, not in-game 07:49 <@planetmaker> maybe one could evaluate that on the fly after the active grf list is changed 07:49 <@Terkhen> Bilge: banks and water towers in default ttd are town industries 07:54 Oh I see 07:54 I've never seen a water tower though 07:55 Can you transport water or something? 07:55 <@planetmaker> you never played tropical climate then ;-) 07:55 Oh, no, I haven't :3 07:55 I prefer green to brown 07:55 I thought it was just visual, didn't realise the game was different 07:55 * planetmaker wonders where there's brown in the tropical climate ;-) 07:56 Sand 07:57 It would be pretty cool if, when selecting a landscape style, the background changed to preview it 07:57 <@planetmaker> NewGRFs can change that. So pretty pointless 07:58 <@planetmaker> unless you already create a game 07:58 <@planetmaker> which then would have no vehicles, no nothing... pretty boring 07:58 newgrfs can change the stock four climate types? 07:59 <@Yexo> planetmaker: I think Bilge means to have one opntitle.dat per climate 07:59 <@Yexo> and newgrfs can't change the small image in the main menu 07:59 <@planetmaker> Yexo, yes. That's what I replied to 07:59 <@Yexo> simply because they are not loaded at that point in time 07:59 <@planetmaker> The tiles can all be newgrf modified. Thus a preview will fail 07:59 <@Yexo> ah, ok :) 07:59 <@Yexo> Bilge: newgrfs can change every single sprite that is used in game 08:00 <@planetmaker> even change an "a" for a "v" ;-) 08:00 Well that may be the case but anyone who is screwing with newgrfs probably knows what they're doing, it's still useful for new players, and besides that it probably is still useful to be able to preview the grfs sets anyway 08:00 <@planetmaker> Bilge, 90% don't ;-) 08:00 <@Yexo> the majority doesn't know what they're doing :) 08:00 lol OK 08:00 But I can't really see a downside of having a "opntitle.dat" for each climate 08:00 In spite of newgrfs 08:01 <@Yexo> there isn't really a downside to that I think 08:01 <@planetmaker> it'll be broken by design 08:01 <@Yexo> somewhat bigger download size 08:01 <@planetmaker> it won't preview what you get as soon as you have newgrfs. 08:01 It's not a big file is it? 08:01 <@Yexo> having to reload the main menu when you change the climate, which means the various subwindows are closed 08:01 <@Yexo> not really, but then openttd isn't a big download either 08:03 <@planetmaker> still, it'll give complaints immediately - promising something which is not there. 08:04 <@Yexo> agreed 08:04 <@planetmaker> the only way I see is to generate a random game as background and start AIs there 08:04 <@Yexo> that'll cause even more problems 08:04 <@planetmaker> in what way? 08:04 Fixed is better because you're showcasing the majority of visual elements in one screen 08:04 <@Yexo> I guess the FS#4631 / r22534 kind 08:05 <@Yexo> AIs were never intended to run in the main menu 08:05 <@Yexo> and it'll lead to such ugly examples in the main menu that it's not a good idea anyway 08:05 <@planetmaker> depends on the AI ;-) 08:06 I just created a town and the game named it "Little Slutford" 08:06 <@planetmaker> see. That's what you get from messing with it! ;-) 08:06 Population: 268 little sluts 08:07 <@planetmaker> but yes... AIs in the main menu might not be a good idea anyway 08:09 <@Terkhen> Bilge: please refrain from using using foul language 08:10 <@Terkhen> s/using using/using/ 08:10 -!- glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:d473:6e41:9fb4:20f3] has joined #openttd 08:10 -!- mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 08:10 planetmaker the graphics in FIRS look amazing, who made them? 08:11 <@planetmaker> andythenorth 08:11 What part do you work on? 08:11 <@planetmaker> some small code fixes here and there, some compatibility stuff. And the build system 08:12 <@Terkhen> Bilge: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/docs/attribution.txt <--- those are the few exceptions drawn by people other than andythenorth 08:12 <@planetmaker> in other words: it's open source ;-) 08:12 <@Terkhen> yes :P 08:13 I think you need to avoid using colloqualisms in game dialogs though 08:13 Like: Production "steps up" if two or more cargos are delivered... 08:13 Should be: Production "increases" 08:14 <@Yexo> Bilge: those are strings from the FIRS newgrf 08:14 <@planetmaker> I won't judge that... andy is native speaker 08:14 Yeah I was talking to planetmaker 08:14 And so am I but I'm thinking of non-native speakers 08:14 That kind of phrase should be avoided 08:15 As should any idiom 08:15 what? 08:15 <@Yexo> Bilge: you can see all strings in FIRS here: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/sprites/nfo/lang/7F_any.pnfo 08:15 <@planetmaker> Bilge, we happily accept suggestions for improvement. Best grab that file and correct it where needed 08:16 <@Yexo> if you find more examples taht should be changed, I recommend you open a ticket here: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs 08:16 <@planetmaker> and post it then in the forum's FIRS thread or at the FIRS bug tracker at http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/issues 08:16 <@Yexo> that way it can be discussed with andy more easily and it won't be forgotten 08:16 <@planetmaker> ^ yup :-) 08:20 <@planetmaker> in case of doubt: the main primary language is British English. A separate American English translation can be selected / provided for cases where it matters 08:21 I am British but idioms shouldn't be used in any language for game text 08:21 This isn't too good either: "This industry might close unless any cargo is delivered within" 08:21 <@planetmaker> that's pretty clear IMHO 08:21 It's not English 08:21 Should be: "This industry may close if no cargo is delivered within" 08:22 -!- Chris_Booth is now known as Booth 08:22 <@planetmaker> but as said... :-) please provide a revised English language file with your corrections 08:22 I don't know how to do that 08:22 <@planetmaker> grab the file Yexo linked and edit it... 08:22 <@Yexo> download the file, edit in any text editor, save it, upload it to the issue tracker 08:23 It's the uploading part I don't get 08:23 <@Yexo> go https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/issues/new 08:23 <@planetmaker> you'll need to register to the BugTracker 08:24 <@Yexo> there is a "files" field, you can upload your file there 08:24 <@planetmaker> Then you can open issues with the link as given ^ 08:26 -!- Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-006-129.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 08:28 So it seems that FIRS gives me lots of new industries and cargos and absolutely no way of transporting any of them anywhere 08:28 <@planetmaker> correct 08:28 Amazing 08:28 -!- tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@524B73C2.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 08:29 <@planetmaker> you necessarily need vehicle newgrfs, if you want to be able to transport all those cargos 08:29 <@Terkhen> if FIRS gave you its own vehicles, you would be limited to only those vehicles 08:29 <@planetmaker> nearly any will do, but you need one ;-) 08:29 <@Terkhen> if you don't want many changes on vehicles try opengfx+ trains and opengfx+ road vehicles 08:29 <@Terkhen> bbl 08:30 <@planetmaker> ships-> FISH. RV, trains: as terkh3n just said. aircraft: probably av8, but others might work, too 08:30 <@planetmaker> enjoy, Terkhen 08:34 This is what I mean about having a dependency system 08:34 <@planetmaker> Bilge, but it doesn't depend on any particular vehicle set 08:35 If you try to start a game with just FIRS it should say: hang on you don't have any vehicles 08:35 On some level they have to be designed to work with each other 08:35 <@planetmaker> but how do you test for *something* which you don't know how it looks like? 08:35 By having an interface 08:36 newgrfs should have a classification 08:36 So you can create a cargos newgrf 08:36 <@planetmaker> that's FIRS 08:36 <@planetmaker> industries and cargos usually go hand in hand 08:36 And that newgrf says, I need a grf for ships, planes and aircraft 08:36 <@planetmaker> though in principle it can be split. But when you define an industry you need to be sure that those cargos are there 08:36 And then it won't start the game until you load a grf that provides each of those interfaces 08:37 <@planetmaker> that doesn't suffice. It needs to tell "I need cargos X,Y,Z,..." 08:37 That would be a lot better yes 08:37 <@Yexo> why should openttd forbid me to load a game without planes if I don't want to play with planes at all? 08:37 It doesn't have to be a hard limit 08:37 An "are you sure" dialog would suffice 08:38 <@Yexo> nobody reads those, or they complain anyway after reading 08:38 <@Yexo> that kind of dialog is just annoying and hardly helpful 08:38 I would say that the use case for the majority of the time is that a grf should enforce some kind of integrity with regards to what other grfs it is coexisting with 08:38 <@planetmaker> still, it's a valid point to notify the user that he's about to start a game where there are certain cargos without means to transport via X or Y 08:39 <@planetmaker> need not be a pop-up window but a part of the config window could in principle do, too 08:39 <@Yexo> again the problem with the way newgrfs are currently loaded: that information is not available until _after_ the game has been generated 08:39 It would be very good if you actually got a dialog that said exactly what was expected but missing. Like, the following cargos have no transports defined: x y z 08:39 <@planetmaker> Bilge, that'd be VERY lengthy in this case ;-) 08:39 Further, a complex grf like FIRS should also recommend to the user other grfs that it is compatible with 08:40 <@Yexo> ok, now say there is a maglev wagon available to transport food. That maglev wagon is the only wagon that is able to transport food, but it's only available from 2030. Should OpenTTD warn about that or not? 08:40 <@planetmaker> :-) 08:40 How am I to know what grfs are out there that provide the missing pieces? Right now I'm only just discovering that there are missing pieces 08:40 <@planetmaker> Bilge, read FIRS' readme 08:40 <@Yexo> you could read the readme.txt file provided with firs? 08:41 I don't know where to see that, I just used the content downloader in gam 08:41 <@Yexo> that is a very valid problem 08:41 <@planetmaker> yep :-( 08:41 <@Yexo> and somebody was working on adding a grf reader to the game 08:41 I should become product manager for OpenTTD :) 08:42 <@planetmaker> oh, definitely not. There are always people who want to manage things 08:42 There's so much good stuff in OpenTTD but there's so much more you can do with it to make it more accessible and enjoyable for more players 08:42 <@planetmaker> But you could certainly contribute a lot :-) 08:43 <@planetmaker> The problem mostly is not so much the knowledge of "what would be nice" or even "what is needed to improve X" - but rather someone actually implementing that 08:43 <@planetmaker> we know about the missing access to readmes. We know that scenarios are a PITA wrt re-configuring to other newgrfs.... but it simply has not yet been solved 08:44 <@planetmaker> I also know that the game menu in general and the arrangement of settings could need an overhaul. Mostly time disallowed me to work on it. 08:45 Yexo: not sure, I think the other ecs grfs will just disable them self if base is missing <- no. they can run alone 08:45 <@planetmaker> Same with other things mentioned and many more. It needs people really working on it 08:45 <@planetmaker> Doing the hard work. Not the 'management' 08:45 <@Yexo> George: ok, good to know :) 08:46 Bilge: Is there any reason why ECS is about 10 newgrfs and FIRS is just conveniently in one?<- TTDP has a limit -32K lines per GRF. ECS Mashinery vector and ECS Agricultural vector are at this limit 08:46 do not know if OTTDP supports more than 64K lines 08:47 -!- Booth is now known as Chris_Booth 08:47 <@planetmaker> it's good to know though where things can be improved. And all your observations are valid ones afaik, especially wrt user interface 08:47 <@Yexo> afaik there is no hardcoded limit, but I'm not sure if the grf spec supports it 08:47 <@Yexo> I think it does though 08:47 -!- Markavian [~Markavian@187.35-50-210.static.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au] has joined #openttd 08:47 <@planetmaker> but it's a lengthy process to really write that. And to write it such that all corner cases are covered and without breaking backward compatibility too hard 08:48 Bilge: But there's "base" and "base2" <- they are not a must. So for farming scenario you'll need Town + Agricultural 08:49 <@planetmaker> George, that's actually quite confusing naming 08:49 -!- erore [opera@hve-0425.koleje.cuni.cz] has joined #openttd 08:49 <@planetmaker> from the names I'd expect to need base + 08:50 Eddi|zuHause: in theory, ECS grfs should be update-able <- they should. Let me know if not. When big change happens, GRFID is changed. The vector becomes version II (Basic, Chemical) 08:50 <@planetmaker> btw, other topic: I think gimp can be made to work with the layer names. I shall look at that when I find some time. But probably not before the end of the week really 08:52 <@Yexo> planetmaker: I'm trying now how hard it is to write a pcx decoder for PIL 08:52 <@Yexo> ehm, XCF, not PCX 08:53 I find it werid that grfs have a "line" limit since I was told grfs are compiled in which case there is no concept of "lines" 08:53 <@Yexo> not really, but a grf is divided in "sprites" 08:53 <@Yexo> there are real sprites (the actual graphics) and pseudo sprites (the one containing data and logic) 08:54 <@Yexo> each "sprite" is also called a "line" (to avoid confusion with "real sprites") 08:54 planetmaker: I appreciate what you're saying, and I am a developer by profession, but C is not my strong suit. That said, from the discussion we had just in the past few hours it seems pretty clear to me that we have discussed some things that haven't been thought about in any kind of detail yet 08:55 <@Yexo> "pseudo sprites" are also called "actions" 08:55 <@Yexo> Bilge: that's true, and a detailed plan on how something could work is always welcome 08:55 <@planetmaker> he, nice, Yexo :-) 08:56 <@Yexo> however an open source project works inherently different from a company 08:56 Because it's easy to say, "a dependency system would be nice" but it takes a lot of work to go through and turn that into a detailed plan on how a programmer could actually go away and implement that idea 08:56 <@Yexo> you can't tell anyone "you have to code that" 08:56 <@Terkhen> most of the things discussed today have also been discussed in the past, but as Yexo mentions a detailed design and plan is needed 08:57 <@Yexo> Bilge: if you want to volunteer to create such a detailed plan I can only say: go right ahead :) 08:57 <@planetmaker> A good place might be our wiki somewhere 08:57 <@Yexo> the wiki (wiki.openttd.org) could be a good place to write it, that way it's possible for other to collaborate when that's needed 08:57 I thought my knowledge of the grf format and interface is far too lacking for me to do that right now 08:57 think* 08:57 <@planetmaker> the development pages would be a suitable place 08:58 <@planetmaker> you might not want to start with that ;-) 08:59 <@Terkhen> regarding the scenario issue, there are plans to expand heightmaps with more info until they can define a "generic" scenario that does not depend on anything else 08:59 <@Terkhen> but no detailed format definition (unless Alberth has something decided already) 09:03 <@planetmaker> and indeed, any such change must be interesting enough so that *someone* wants to take it on ;-) 09:04 <@Terkhen> hmm... the newgrf debug gui code is quite complicated :P 09:05 <@planetmaker> you mean the debug windows? 09:05 <@planetmaker> which show the variables? 09:05 <@Terkhen> yes 09:05 "in berlin, one third of all juristic actions are for 'using public transport without ticket' ['Schwarzfahren']" 09:06 <@Terkhen> it is very powerful too 09:06 <@planetmaker> :-) 09:06 <@planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, sounds like pointless waste of public money 09:07 <@Terkhen> one of my friends had to pay a fine for that when we were at berlin a few years ago :P 09:07 <@planetmaker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_transport_in_Hasselt 09:10 -!- Markavian [~Markavian@187.35-50-210.static.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:11 i can imagine that the issue has gone worse since all the public transport blackouts, in order to protest. 09:11 those are the kind of people who won't just pay the 40€ 09:11 <@planetmaker> must be an incredible amount 09:12 <@Belugas> hello 09:19 while at the topic: how does "schwarzfahren" translate to other languages? 09:20 or is that a purely german issue ;) 09:20 <@planetmaker> fair-dodge? 09:20 <@Yexo> "zwartrijden" in dutch 09:20 <@planetmaker> *fare-dodge 09:22 <@Yexo> "schwarzfahren" in google translate: "go black" :p 09:22 <@Yexo> the dutch one results in "black car" 09:23 <@planetmaker> :-P sounds wrong either case 09:24 <@Terkhen> :D 09:24 <@Yexo> the dutch one results in "black car" 09:24 planetmaker: does FIRS modify the value of passenger cargo because in a standard TTD game I can make millions just using bus and plane population transport; ignoring industry altogether 09:25 I still haven't found any incentive to make use of industry besides for the fun of it 09:26 <@Yexo> you can also argue the other way around 09:26 <@Yexo> it's perfectly possible to make a lot of profit using industries, ignoring passengers altogether 09:26 No my point is that industry is less profitable 09:26 <@Yexo> that depends on city size and your playing style 09:26 <@planetmaker> dunno how transport rates compare. I never care about them 09:26 -!- erore [opera@hve-0425.koleje.cuni.cz] has left #openttd [] 09:26 Particularly early game, when trains are slow and expensive 09:27 <@planetmaker> and towns tiny and scarce ;-) 09:27 <@Yexo> without any newgrfs planes are more profitable than other transport tyeps, but that isn't limited to passengers 09:27 I didn't think there were planes for goods 09:28 <@Yexo> can't you refit them? 09:29 -!- tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@524B73C2.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:30 -!- Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:31 <@Terkhen> default vehicles are refittable to goods and valuables IIRC 09:32 <@Terkhen> yes, and mail too 09:32 * planetmaker wants to fly in coal by jumbo jet. 09:32 <@planetmaker> it's even realistic somewhat... Berlin air lift 09:34 <@Terkhen> opengfx+ aircrafts? :P 09:34 <@planetmaker> :-) Might be pretty straight forward. Nothing really needed except refits 09:34 <@Terkhen> and a setting: "refit to cargos that don't make sense" 09:34 if you could simulate soviets blocking all road/rail/water entrances to the city :p 09:34 <@planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, I can 09:35 <@planetmaker> just build a line of communication towers 09:35 <@planetmaker> the "iron curtain" 09:35 <@Terkhen> there was a scenario like that 09:35 <@planetmaker> at sea level hight 09:35 <@planetmaker> yep, I know ;-) 09:35 planetmaker: but that does not cut existing rail lines 09:35 <@Terkhen> it is awesome how they managed to synchronize that huge water clock :P 09:36 <@planetmaker> :-) In the Sony centre? 09:36 <@Terkhen> hmm... I'm talking about the scenario :P 09:36 planetmaker: did they hack that one yet? :p 09:36 <@planetmaker> Hm... then I don'T quite know. 09:36 <@planetmaker> no idea, probably, Eddi|zuHause ;-) 09:37 <@Terkhen> I found the map a few years ago in the wiki, let me check if it is still there 09:38 <@planetmaker> I'm not sure I remember that... you seem to recall another one than I... 09:40 <@Terkhen> http://wiki.openttd.org/Scenario_talk:German_Reunification <--- meh 09:40 -!- Zeknurn [~lasershoc@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:40 <@planetmaker> :-( 09:41 <@Yexo> Terkhen: I remove a bunch of scenarios from the wiki some time ago. 09:41 <@Yexo> removed all those whose links didn't work anymore 09:41 <@Terkhen> I see :( 09:41 <@Terkhen> I wonder why they did not upload it to the forums or something 09:42 <@Terkhen> planetmaker: it had a line of lighthouses connected to a long line of land at water height that was being flooded slowly 09:42 <@Terkhen> when the right date was reached, water reached the lighthouses and started destroying them 09:43 <@planetmaker> wow. That sounds like awesome timing 09:43 <@Terkhen> you still had both parts separated by water, but it was great :P 09:43 <@Yexo> hmm, I remember that scenario 09:43 <@planetmaker> I don't :-( 09:44 <@Terkhen> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=569210#p569210 <--- there are references to it on the forums, but they link to the same wiki page 09:45 <@Terkhen> another piece of content that falls into oblivion because of external storage, I guess 09:46 <@planetmaker> :-( 09:47 <@planetmaker> http://forum.studio-seo.org/obschie-voprosy-po-openttd-general-openttd/4-scenarii-dlya-openttd-openttd-scenario-2.html 09:47 <@planetmaker> ^ probably 09:48 <@Terkhen> sounds likely 09:48 <@planetmaker> hm.. broken savegame 09:48 -!- Zeknurn [~lasershoc@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 09:49 <@Terkhen> why do they force you to register? meh 09:49 <@planetmaker> he, I tried to load the webpage then obviously :-P 09:49 <@planetmaker> which of course is a broken scenario ;-) 09:50 <@Terkhen> the forum itself looks broken 09:51 <@Terkhen> "home" is broken 09:51 the only external scenario i ever tried was the USA map 09:52 IMHO it heavily suffers from "flatness" 09:52 <@planetmaker> many scenarios based on topography do 09:52 but rivers are great 09:52 <@Terkhen> they are a pain to place :P 09:53 <@Terkhen> I got bored of it after just two rivers 09:53 Terkhen: since the whole map is hand-drawn, i don't think the rivers really make a significant part of that :p 09:53 <@Terkhen> wow 09:54 <@Terkhen> the link in that forum is broken even if you register 09:54 <@Terkhen> s/register/use bugmenot/ :P 09:55 <@planetmaker> yes :S 09:56 <@Terkhen> heh, while googling I got redirected to an old archive of this channel, it is a fun discussion :P 09:57 old discussions are often fun ;) 09:57 try to read logs from exactly 1 year ago ;) 09:57 <@Terkhen> let's see 09:58 <@Terkhen> but I was here already one year ago, this one is like reading old story for me :P 09:58 <@Terkhen> http://thegrebs.com/irc/openttd/2008/01/21 10:01 didn't Gonozal_VIII make one of those IN-attempts? 10:01 <@Yexo> yes 10:01 <@Terkhen> IN? what's that? 10:02 <@planetmaker> integrated nightly 10:02 <@Yexo> patchpack 10:02 same as a patchpack ;) 10:02 <@planetmaker> i.e. a nightly patchpack 10:02 <@Terkhen> ah :P 10:04 the name "NukeBuster" is very close to "NekoMaster", makes for bad associations... 10:05 <@Terkhen> wow, this channel really loved to write back then :P 10:06 there were always periods of more talk, and others of less talk 10:07 <@planetmaker> it's not like this has been a silent day... 10:07 <@Terkhen> :P 10:07 <@Yexo> more surprising: most of the talk today has actually been about openttd ;) 10:07 <@planetmaker> :-) 10:07 that is indeed rare :p 10:07 -!- amkoroew [~Heinz@p5B1022DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:08 and they didn't pick up on my attempts of derailing the topic ;) 10:09 <@planetmaker> hm... I like those scenarios which have a CC-ND license :-P 10:09 http://thegrebs.com/irc/openttd/2008/01/21#08:56 " I know about one grf author that will really start to hate you..." <-- what a true prediciton ;) 10:09 <@planetmaker> You may look at it, but not play ;-) 10:09 <@Yexo> you can play, but not upload screenshots / savegames :) 10:10 <@Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: that is the fun discussion I was mentioning :P 10:10 -!- Progman [~progman@p57A1A5C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:10 I hate it when my prediction become true. 10:11 <@Terkhen> :D 10:13 <@planetmaker> he... 10:13 <@planetmaker> I also wished you were wrong. Not generally, but here ;-) 10:14 * fjb doesn't mind. 10:16 <@Terkhen> anyways, I can't find the scenario so you will have to believe me about what it did :P 10:16 <@planetmaker> unfair! 10:16 <@planetmaker> ;-) 10:20 so, still missing: mecklenburg-vorpommern, saarland, sachsen, berlin, hull. <-- has any of that been checked yet? :p 10:22 When did "refitting" become part of the game? I know the original never had it 10:22 iirc TTD already had ship refitting, TT(O) didn't 10:23 or at least was one of the very first TTDPatch ammendments 10:26 -!- Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.108.152] has joined #openttd 10:26 I never heard of the deluxe version, I just owned the original. Wikipedia doesn't even say when the delux version was released, just that it was "shortly afterward" 10:27 Does anyone know when TTD was released? 10:27 <@planetmaker> 1994? 10:27 1994 original, 1995 world editor, 1996 deluxe 10:27 <@planetmaker> ok :-) 10:27 (iirc) 10:27 Oh wait it does say at the top heh 10:27 1995 for TTD 10:27 i never heard of deluxe either 10:28 until like 2001-ish 10:28 when i got internet 10:28 Aye same heh 10:28 and played something like TTDPatch 1.6/1.7 10:28 I think even if I had seen it I would have just dismissed it as rebranding 10:29 alone for the one-way-signals it would have been worth purchasing 10:32 -!- KouDy [~KouDy@ip-94-112-27-160.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 10:36 Not for me 10:36 I still haven't used them even now 10:37 As I understand they're only useful for closed circuit tracks but because I was bought up on the orignal games I never think about building that way 10:37 Besides I still feel like tracks like that have very little application in most circumstances 10:37 <@planetmaker> you could IMHO not be more wrong ;-) 10:38 * Terkhen used to think that way too :P 10:38 <@planetmaker> two-way block signals are the only signal type I NEVER build 10:38 <@planetmaker> the normal two - way block signals 10:38 they have very narrow use cases 10:38 <@planetmaker> _very_ narrow :-) 10:39 * Terkhen would love a signal GUI with one way block signals and path signals only 10:39 sharing a one-track-station between several otherwise independent lines with one train each 10:39 <@planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, but there a path signal is IMHO more appropriate 10:39 <@planetmaker> or at least equally feasible 10:40 in _all_ "real" cases, path signals are more or equally appropriate 10:40 only weird "priority" constructs actually need block signals 10:40 i haven't used block signals in ages 10:40 <@planetmaker> :-) 10:40 <@planetmaker> I use them on normal tracks 10:41 <@planetmaker> and, of course, for priority lines 10:41 <@Terkhen> why wasn't recommended to build path signals on normal tracks? 10:41 <@planetmaker> slow(er) 10:41 <@Terkhen> performance? 10:41 <@planetmaker> not that. But a train might stop, to "think" about reservation 10:41 <@planetmaker> that's only done every 20(?) ticks by default 10:42 <@planetmaker> or you change that to 1 tick - then it impacts performance slightly afair 10:42 <@Terkhen> oh, ok 10:42 <@planetmaker> we change it on our servers to one tick ;-) 10:42 -!- Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:42 <@planetmaker> the !setdef command takes care of that 10:42 I use these newfangled "path" signals exclusively. I never use block signals. But I still don't create closed circuits 10:43 <@planetmaker> nor do you use double-tracked routes, eh? 10:43 Don't know what that means 10:45 -!- ashledombos [~ashledomb@marvin-18-230.cnt.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:45 -!- perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd 10:45 -!- ashledombos [~ashledomb@marvin-18-230.cnt.nerim.net] has joined #openttd 10:47 <@planetmaker> for example: one track going North, the other South 10:47 <@planetmaker> connecting the same stations basically, in parallel 10:47 <@planetmaker> each connecting to every station track 10:48 <@planetmaker> but (mostly) allowing only uni-directional traffic (for higher train density) 10:50 -!- ashledombos_ [~ashledomb@marvin-18-230.cnt.nerim.net] has joined #openttd 10:52 If there's two trains on a dual line then that sounds inefficient to me 10:53 I'd probably use a single platform and either have a partially parallel section so they can bypass each other or a mandatory stop at the depot 10:53 Depending on how long it takes to load up 10:53 -!- ashledombos [~ashledomb@marvin-18-230.cnt.nerim.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:54 -!- Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has joined #openttd 10:56 <@planetmaker> you never had then a station with more than 100 trains visiting it ;-) 10:56 Do you kno why, even though a scenario downloaded AV8 1.81, I'm offered 1.501 as an "upgrade" 10:57 <@planetmaker> different ids? 10:57 <@Yexo> the av8 addon has 1.501 as dependency IIRC 10:57 <@planetmaker> might be 10:58 I don't think so, I played with 1.81 by itself 10:58 But I'm seeing both in the list and 1.501 gets checked when I click "select upgrades" 10:59 <@planetmaker> because 1.3x + 1.5x have a different ID than 1.8x? 11:00 I can't seem to see that 11:01 What is the DOS/Windows palette thing and does it matter if some default to DOS while other Windows (mixing them)? 11:01 <@planetmaker> but they are 44440A01 vs 44440A03 11:02 Shouldn't they have the same ID if they're the same mod? 11:02 <@planetmaker> "don't change defaults" is in 99% a good idea 11:02 Just different versions of the same MOD I mean 11:02 <@Yexo> planetmaker: huh? I have multiple versions of av8, but all of them are 44440A01 11:02 <@Yexo> 1.331, 1.501, 1.7 and 1.81 11:02 <@planetmaker> Yexo, but the av8 extra aircraft have another ID 11:02 Not talking about the extra 11:02 <@planetmaker> which is 44440A03 11:03 I have duplicate of the base back 11:04 <@planetmaker> ? 11:06 <@planetmaker> I have three different base sets to choose from. But definitely not in the newgrf window 11:06 back = pack 11:07 <@planetmaker> yes 11:07 Yexo: for refittable vehicles would it be possible in the purcahse window to include the refit cost? This instead of having to buy it first 11:07 <@planetmaker> I understood that... But still not the sense of your statement. 11:07 Sometimes the refit costs as much as the original vehicle. OpenGFX Road Vehicles the refit is free 11:07 <@planetmaker> Bilge, not possible 11:07 Knowing the refit cost up front would be a lot better 11:08 <@planetmaker> the newgrf decides on the refit costs 11:08 <@Terkhen> hmm... should it be? I never worried about refit cost in OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles 11:08 The refit is free in that mod 11:08 <@planetmaker> Terkhen, I decided that "free" is as justified as "expensive". I chose free 11:08 But in the base game refits are expensive 11:08 <@planetmaker> or nearly free 11:09 <@planetmaker> As to me it made no sense to pay big $when transporting ore instead of coal in the same wagon 11:09 I remember buying a diesel train and refitting it from passenger to something else and it costing the same as the train in the first place 11:09 <@planetmaker> Bilge, in any case: bother the newgrf authors 11:09 <@planetmaker> it's their choice 11:09 They can set the cost but that's not the point, I just want whatever the cost is displayed in the purcahse window 11:11 <@planetmaker> not feasible 11:11 <@Terkhen> Bilge: IIRC the problem is that the refit cost can depend on vehicle values that do not exist until the vehicle is actually bought 11:11 <@Terkhen> therefore, with some NewGRFs you would get huge differences between what is displayed on the buy window and the real cost 11:11 <@planetmaker> as it can be "1000$ on February 29, 750 in May, 100 all other days, except Fridays where it's 259, but Friday 13 is 100000 and no refit possible in 1974 or after 2019 11:11 <@Terkhen> that too :P 11:12 <@Yexo> Bilge: the newgrf decides the price, but the newgrf can also display it in the purchase window 11:12 <@planetmaker> oh, and that was only valid when it carries currently coal. All different when it currently carries ore 11:13 <@planetmaker> a good vehicle newgrf author indeed could display that there. I wonder if *any* newgrf does that 11:13 * planetmaker is an evil newgrf author 11:13 <@Terkhen> oh, that's true 11:13 <@Terkhen> NewGRFs can display additional stuff there :P 11:13 Refit is part of the game though. What if there are no newgrfs installed? I still want to see the refit price 11:13 <@planetmaker> yeah... VEH_CB_TEXT_PURCHASE_SCREEN 11:14 <@planetmaker> bad luck ;-) 11:14 Terkhen: even if that's true you can still display "Estimated refit cost" 11:15 <@planetmaker> a newgrf author can know it exactly - in principle 11:15 <@Terkhen> why should we show information that we know can be false? you underestimate how confused users would get about it 11:15 <@planetmaker> ^ 11:16 When you hold shift to test building it also declares "estimated cost" because it knows things can change between when you did the test and actually build the road 11:16 That doesn't mean the feature was omitted because you assume users are stupid 11:16 <@Yexo> but at that time the vehicle is already build 11:17 <@Yexo> which is different, because with an already build vehicle openttd can ask the newgrf about the refit cost 11:17 <@Yexo> as long as there is no vehicle I'd have to create one, get the refit cost, and delete it 11:17 <@Yexo> which is possible, but a lot more work 11:17 <@Terkhen> it's not a matter of users being stupid or not, it's a matter of users assuming that the info shown to them is correct when it is actually wrong 11:18 "Estimated" is used to dispel that instinct to assume 11:18 <@planetmaker> an estimation which can be off by orders of magnitude? 11:18 <@Terkhen> for example: "Estimated refit cost: 0" 11:18 <@Terkhen> and later the real refit cost is 100.000$11:18 <@planetmaker> we could always use that then or the other ;-) 11:19 <@planetmaker> it's an estimate 11:19 <@planetmaker> easy fix actually ;-) 11:19 <@Terkhen> the best solution IMO is to ask NewGRF authors to display an estimate 11:19 <@planetmaker> STR_REFIT_ESTIMATE: Estimated refit cost: 0 ;-) 11:19 It isn't because it's inconsistent and still doesn't add the information to the base game 11:20 <@planetmaker> consider base game as "easy". But everything added _also_ has to hold for newgrfs 11:21 <@Terkhen> that's the problem Bilge, because of how callbacks are handled for real vehicles and vehicles in the buy menu, this is already inconsistent 11:21 <@Terkhen> so you are going to get inconsistent solutions 11:24 planetmaker: FIRS says it is compatible with eGRVTS v1.0, which is exactly the version I am using, but it does not provide any vehicles for transporting alcohol 11:24 <@planetmaker> that's unfortunately correct. FIRS readme is older than its alcohol cargo ;-) 11:25 <@planetmaker> please open a ticket or I'll forget... 11:25 I don't know how to do that 11:26 <@planetmaker> same way as translation / language fixes... 11:26 What would you do about it? Remove it from the readme? 11:26 Or fix eGRVTS? 11:26 <@planetmaker> "all excep alcohol". I can't fix egrvts. It's not mine 11:27 If it's abandoned can't we fork and fix it? 11:27 <@planetmaker> the license afaik allows it. yes 11:27 <@planetmaker> the author is still around, though. But very busy atm 11:27 <@Terkhen> it's not abandoned though, Zephyris still plans to update it some day 11:28 <@planetmaker> egrvts needs also some other fixes. Like adoption to realistic acceleration 11:28 <@Terkhen> yes :( 11:29 <@planetmaker> I wonder in what shape the egrvts source is... 11:29 <@planetmaker> and whether we should sweet talk Zephyris to just upload it to the DevZone 11:29 <@planetmaker> Whether he'd have time for that 11:29 <@planetmaker> then maybe a 1.4 could be made. maybe 11:29 <@planetmaker> but I fear the answer to "how does the source look like?" 11:30 <@Terkhen> why? 11:30 <@planetmaker> do you know how it looks? 11:30 <@Terkhen> it's NFO, you can't make it much worse than it is :D 11:30 <@Terkhen> it already is* 11:30 <@planetmaker> :-D 11:30 <@planetmaker> there's nfo, there's de-compiled nfo and there's nfo ;-) 11:30 <@Terkhen> it can't be worse than uncommented, long lines right? 11:30 <@planetmaker> that's right 11:30 -!- Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:30 <@planetmaker> And I know the pain I went through with TTRS 11:30 <@planetmaker> nothing I fancy doing really 11:31 convert to nml :-P 11:31 <@planetmaker> tralallala :-) 11:31 <@Terkhen> I tried to understand 2cctrainset code myself and I failed, and it is commented 11:31 <@planetmaker> he, yes 11:31 <@planetmaker> but that's easier than uncommented 11:31 <@planetmaker> 2ccTS has not exactly an easy-to-understand code base anyway 11:32 <@Terkhen> yes 11:32 isn't there a nfo-nml converter for firs? 11:32 <@planetmaker> and if it's only because of its size 11:32 <@Terkhen> Ammler: it is still not finished, action14 and other things are missing 11:32 * planetmaker looks under the desk for Yexo. 11:32 <@planetmaker> He must be hiding *somewhere* :-P 11:32 <@Terkhen> but the converted version compiles and can be run :) 11:33 <@Terkhen> it will disable itself because something is missing, though 11:33 <@Terkhen> but the resulting code is... not nice 11:33 * Yexo looks for a better place to hide 11:33 <@Terkhen> nicer than expected, but still chaos :P 11:33 <@planetmaker> well... I guess there's only so much one can do with a de-compiler 11:34 <@Terkhen> I'm willing to translate the converted code to proper NML for FIRS, but it is not something I fancy doing for many other sets :) 11:34 <@planetmaker> and there are light years between nfo and nml code for me ;-) 11:34 <@Terkhen> when with proper I mean variables with meaningful names and so on 11:34 <@planetmaker> yep, sure 11:34 <@Terkhen> templates, organized code... 11:34 <@Yexo> var[x] to the correct name can be done automatically 11:34 <@planetmaker> that's darn hard work 11:35 * Terkhen guesses that after the conversion he will never forget sed syntax again 11:35 <@planetmaker> haha :-) 11:35 <@planetmaker> sed -i.bak "s/blubber/fancy/g" 11:35 -!- ashledombos_ [~ashledomb@marvin-18-230.cnt.nerim.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:35 <@Yexo> planetmaker: I've given up on trying to implement a xcf decoder for PIL for now 11:36 <@Yexo> the documentation is missing a lot of information, and I'm pretty sure it can't be done in pure python, it'll need some c code 11:36 <@planetmaker> where is the exact problem? - oh :S 11:36 what is the issue there with using gimp console? 11:36 <@Yexo> which makes distributing / testing harder 11:36 <@planetmaker> Ammler, the "size" of gimp as tool 11:36 <@planetmaker> and we'd have python anyway as dep for all our repos 11:37 <@planetmaker> So it'd be more light-weight 11:37 <@Yexo> and if pil supported those files, nml could too :) 11:37 <@planetmaker> :-) 11:37 well, gimp is a kind of require anyway 11:37 <@planetmaker> how? 11:37 <@Yexo> Ammler: only for artists, not for coders 11:37 maybe you can do the same with photoshop? 11:38 <@planetmaker> Ammler, my script supports photoshop 11:38 Yexo: which coder doesn't need a graphics tool? 11:38 <@planetmaker> gimp reads it just fine 11:38 <@Yexo> Ammler: myself :) 11:38 <@planetmaker> :-P 11:38 maybe do it the same way as OpenTTD does openttd.grf? 11:38 planetmaker: I meant to use photoshop instead gimp 11:38 <@planetmaker> Rubidium, but there everything is as png, right? 11:39 <@planetmaker> I don't see openttd.grf using any layered graphics file anywhere 11:39 planetmaker: I guess, he meant, add the png to the repo and use gimp if available 11:39 well... yes, but I mean openttd.grf itself, not the source for openttd.grf 11:39 <@planetmaker> that's what we do use currently 11:39 <@Terkhen> yes, I have been thinking about adding pngs to the repo too 11:39 <@Terkhen> planetmaker: not in ogfx-rv right now :P 11:39 <@planetmaker> ho, ogfx+rv doesn't, ok :-) 11:39 i.e. recompile it when the tool for doing that is available 11:39 otherwise just keep the precompiled binary 11:40 it'll somewhat mess up the repository though 11:40 <@planetmaker> ah... you mean... only "re-gimp" if gimp is there? yes 11:40 <@Terkhen> and also, some way of compiling without using gimp, even if gimp is present 11:40 <@planetmaker> but that means either all png anyway or the grf. Both is... not so nice 11:40 <@Terkhen> convert from xcf to png would be a special target 11:40 <@Terkhen> and by default, use pngs 11:40 <@planetmaker> iirc it is currently 11:41 <@planetmaker> it works currently like xcf newer than png? then re-gimp the png 11:41 <@planetmaker> that check just needs making dependent on the availability of gimp 11:41 <@Terkhen> oh, nice, that's enough IMO 11:41 <@Terkhen> I'll readd the pngs to the repo then 11:41 <@planetmaker> obviously xcf is always newer than no png file 11:42 <@planetmaker> Terkhen, sure you want that? 11:42 Terkhen: just call those different as the other pngs 11:42 <@Terkhen> planetmaker: right now it takes way too long to compile 11:42 <@Terkhen> Ammler: what do you mean? 11:42 <@planetmaker> Let's say... please don't be too quick with it. 11:42 something like .gimp.png 11:42 <@planetmaker> Terkhen, does it always take that long? 11:42 <@Terkhen> Ammler: there are no "other" pngs on ogfx-rv, everything can be generated from xcf 11:43 <@planetmaker> even when you didn't touch the xcf? 11:43 <@Terkhen> and IIRC they are already being called .gimp.png 11:43 <@Terkhen> planetmaker: I don't remember 11:43 <@planetmaker> yep, iirc, too 11:43 Terkhen: then it might not matter :-P 11:43 <@Terkhen> well, .gimp.png is still better for consistency, if other ogfx projects start using the same scheme 11:43 <@planetmaker> Terkhen, it *should* - whether it does or not - only re-create the png if the xcf is newer. thus compilation only should take longer if the pngs are re-written 11:44 <@Terkhen> so only the first time 11:44 <@Terkhen> ? 11:44 <@planetmaker> that's how it should be. 11:44 <@Terkhen> ok :) 11:44 <@planetmaker> and for every time changing graphics ;-) 11:45 <@planetmaker> yes... seemed to work for me. 11:45 <@planetmaker> make just build the nml. after clean it builds the png 11:46 -!- hgnmu128 [~hgnmu128@117.201.251.163] has joined #openttd 11:46 <@planetmaker> hm, good. It also works with gimp 2.4 :-) 11:47 -!- hgnmu128 is now known as Guest3758 11:48 -!- Guest3758 is now known as hgnmu128 11:48 <@planetmaker> but indeed takes *quite* some time 11:50 I have a doubt. The GRVTS 32bpp package is just a tar with the *_z?.png etc files inside it, where is the code to import them into the game located? In the GRF? 11:51 <@Yexo> nowhere 11:52 <@Yexo> when openttd has to read real sprite with number x from the grf, it'll try to load "grfname/x_z?.png" first 11:52 <@Yexo> only if that fails it'll load the sprite from the grf 11:52 And it happens only if blitter is set? 11:52 <@Yexo> yes, see http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/raw-file/tip/docs/32bpp.txt 11:53 <@planetmaker> a blitter is always set - except on most dedicated servers ;-) 11:54 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:55 But I have GRVTS.grf where GRFname string is "GRVTSv1.4" but the tar name is "GRVTSv1.4c.tar". So it searches for grfname*/X_zY.png? 11:55 -!- Amis [~Amis@5400EA7C.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #openttd 11:57 * hgnmu128 is waiting, fingers crossed. ;) 11:59 Yexo, planetmaker, anyone? 11:59 <@Yexo> the tar name doesn't matter, the name of the directory inside the tar does 12:00 <@Yexo> the _zY part is not part of OpenTTD, only of the extra zoom levels patch 12:00 <@Yexo> the grf name string doesn't matter, the filename of the grf matters 12:00 The (only) directory inside the tar is "sprites". 12:01 <@Yexo> and inside the sprites directory? 12:01 I get it. 12:02 Thanks. 12:03 Now, there's a new doubt? Wouldn't OTTD have to search all TARs in data/ directory for EVERY SINGLE GRF? 12:03 <@planetmaker> it does that 12:03 <@planetmaker> upon startup 12:04 Full loop through the data/ dir per grf? Is that why loading a preset with a lot of GRFs take a long time? 12:04 <@planetmaker> that's why my startup is not really quick ;-) 12:05 Is it done for all GRFs in the directory or those selected via NewGRF Settings? 12:05 *only those 12:06 <@planetmaker> everything is searched for upon startup. And then things are cached 12:07 Cached for the same instance only or for the next time as well? 12:07 <@planetmaker> so that openttd knows where it finds stuff 12:07 <@planetmaker> until you rescan or exit 12:07 <@planetmaker> and some other ops also force a re-read afair 12:08 Okay. 12:09 And I often thought #openttd was deserted because most OPs and members were away. It seems that it was the doubts which were away. 12:10 Thanks for the help, planetmaker, Yexo. Good night. 12:10 <@planetmaker> g'night 12:10 <@Yexo> good night 12:10 * hgnmu128 leaves 12:10 -!- hgnmu128 [~hgnmu128@117.201.251.163] has left #openttd [] 12:11 -!- Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 12:23 -!- KouDy1 [~KouDy@ip-94-112-27-160.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 12:26 -!- KouDy [~KouDy@ip-94-112-27-160.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:30 -!- Strid__ [~Strid@c-578fe555.013-46-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:32 -!- DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 12:39 -!- frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f65ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 12:40 -!- goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-065-228-102.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 12:41 <@planetmaker> hm... some things I just don't understand: there's been an open day at the German army and obviously it has been allowed to children to use a targeting system or "came in contact with weapons" under supervision. Obviously that for some reason is not allowed... what point is an open day at the army then? 12:42 -!- Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 12:43 planetmaker, they called that little village were the children were 'fighting' after a town in bosnia which was involved in conflicts in ww2 and in the 90s again 12:44 <@planetmaker> Dunno. That definitely is unfortunate naming then. But the principle is even questioned or said to be illegal 12:45 it might be morally questionable to advertise weapons to kids, but there is nothing "illegal" 12:45 <@planetmaker> I mean... what do those boys do otherwise? They sit at home and play CS or whatever. Or go outside and the same... 12:47 <@planetmaker> I think there's a difference between advertising violence and war as conflict solutions and a "hands on experience" so to say. 12:49 -!- |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 12:58 -!- goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-065-228-102.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:59 i remember being at an open day in the army as a child 12:59 that was 1988-ish 13:00 <@planetmaker> That was another army than I visited in my childhood ;-) 13:00 although that was a ... different army :p 13:00 <@planetmaker> I know for sure that I then was on the driver's seat of a battle tank 13:00 <@planetmaker> as well as the gunner's place 13:01 they had camouflage nets and different vehicles, but i don't remember anything specific 13:01 a radar dish i remember 13:02 <@planetmaker> the only other thing is that they made a kind of show / maneuvre combining ground troups and helicopters. Was a good show ;-) 13:03 <@planetmaker> at least impressed me back then 13:03 they tore down that army base last year 13:03 <@planetmaker> probably 25 years ago :-P 13:05 -!- Strid [~Strid@c-578fe555.013-46-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd 13:07 -!- Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 13:07 -!- goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-065-228-102.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 13:10 -!- |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 13:35 -!- Wolf01 [~wolf01@host68-239-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 13:36 hello 13:37 <@Terkhen> hi Wolf01 13:55 -!- Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 13:55 -!- mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 13:55 OpenTTD: frosch * r22546 /trunk/known-bugs.txt: -Doc [FS#4635]: Add 'trains do not crash with their own wagons' to known_bugs. 14:00 -!- keky___ [~stefan@p5098b65a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 14:14 -!- bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 14:24 Is it planned to make locks realistic so that enclosed areas have to fill up before boats can travel upstream? Or will they always just float upstream against the flow 14:25 <@Belugas> don't think so 14:25 it is not planned to make them jump like in ttdp when reversing the ship inside the lock :p 14:25 <@Belugas> at elast, not from me. you mentionned the R word 14:25 <@Belugas> and what frosch123 said too :) 14:26 -!- JVassie [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 14:26 <@Yexo> Bilge: currently ships ignore each other 14:26 <@Alberth> Bilge: The goal of the game is to provide fun rather than being realistic 14:27 anyway, without interaction the ships in ttdp actually go ___|¯¯¯¯ 14:27 * Belugas applaudes 14:27 i.e. they stop in the middle and raise/lower slowly 14:27 <@Yexo> when you want to change locks like that ships would have to be aware of each other or you'll get very wierd results when a ship going downstream and one going upstream meet 14:28 * Alberth would like that patch :) 14:34 -!- Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has joined #openttd 14:34 feature request: roadvehicles loading in second place at a drive through stop move to front position if the first vehicle leaves 14:35 (especially if on timetabled wait or full load, if not actually loading) 14:37 I don't understand the argument that realism and fun are mutually exclusive 14:37 If you want that kind of "fun" make trains ignore each other as well and remove disasters from the game 14:38 As it stands right now you can push mass amounts of ships over land using a single width channel 14:38 Without penalty 14:38 -!- tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-15-80.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 14:38 The cost of taking a shortcut over land with ships should be that locks take time to operate 14:38 "realism" and "fun" are not mutually exclusive 14:38 <@Yexo> not without penalty: ships are very slow, so you lose income 14:38 and nobody said that 14:39 <@Yexo> also canals are very expensive 14:39 just "realism" as the _only_ support argument for a feature request is like having no argument at all 14:39 Along with making them operate correctly you could probably reduce the cost a bit also 14:39 As I tried to explain, it's not the only argument 14:40 You can send a hundred ships down a single width channel over land without any real penalty 14:40 Whereas with all other forms of transport you must provision adequately to provide throughput in any kind of volumew 14:41 In that way ships are a bit broken right now 14:41 yes, but if you want to solve that, you need other ways to direct and manage ships, like you can do with signals and trackbits with trains 14:42 -!- bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd 14:42 It should be a given that a single width canal is one way as soon as the first ship enters it 14:42 imho ships should still be able to pass through each other, but docks should be limited to one ship at a time 14:42 (or 3, one on each side) 14:42 If you want a two-way canal then it needs to be double width 14:43 Bilge: yes, you can build two-width canals, but how do you tell the ships which side to use? 14:43 It doesn't matter 14:43 You can't build a dock in a canal anyway 14:43 <@Yexo> you can 14:43 you can, just needs a raised land 14:44 Then I suppose you should have a one-way system similar to roads 14:44 -!- tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-235-244.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:44 <@Yexo> but by defaults roads are two-way 14:44 But implicitly speaking, a given channel is one-way as soon as the first ship enters it from a given direction and remains so until the last one leaves 14:44 <@Yexo> if you keep the default canal as two-way, there is no incentive to make them one-way 14:45 <@Alberth> Bilge: even 2 or more wide canals? 14:45 Yes but a double-width canal would be one-way twice 14:45 <@Alberth> what if you split a canal in 2 directions? 14:45 <@Yexo> Bilge: now I create a 2 tile wide canal, let a ship enter from both sides, than remove half of the canal. Now I have a 1 tile wide canal with a ship coming from 2 sides 14:46 <@Yexo> and not only splitting, what if you merge two one-way canals? 14:46 Each "lane" of a canal can be unidirectional 14:46 <@Alberth> Bilge: until now, nobody has found a good way to decide what you propose automatically 14:46 I have a picture of how it would work in my head but it's hard to describe 14:47 <@Alberth> Bilge: exactly :) 14:47 Bilge: i just think it's not practical 14:47 I think a canal should be a valid destination for a ship's orders 14:47 Like a buoy 14:47 As soon as you mouse over the canal it should be possible to highlight the route it would take through that canal regardless of width 14:47 Bilge: you can put buoys on canals 14:47 <@Yexo> currently the concept of "canal" doesn't exist in openttd, only "canal tiles" 14:47 Right, but you should add that concept 14:48 So that all connected tiles for a given "route" through the canal are treated as one entity 14:48 A double-width canal has two routes 14:48 If you modify it while a ship is in transit 14:48 It will have to turn around 14:48 <@Belugas> Bilge: can we add an order "go to this bridge" with trains? 14:48 It can't cross over into the other "lane" 14:49 <@Alberth> Bilge: what if another ship is already behind it? 14:49 Bilge: what if you have a three-wide canal? 14:49 You have three lanes 14:49 Bilge: and where does the lane end'? 14:49 When it reaches the end of the canal 14:49 <@Yexo> Bilge: I can see where you are going. It does add some complications to ships. Personally I wouldn't like such a change at all 14:49 <@Yexo> ships are already marginally useful, this would make them only less viable as transport option 14:50 Bilge: what if the three-wide canal ends in a 4-wide river? 14:50 I think it would be the opposite 14:50 If you adjust the costs of canals accordingly it should promote their use 14:50 <@Yexo> but you can already adjust the cost of canals now 14:50 Bilge: what if the canal makes a curve? 14:50 <@Yexo> that is independent from the routing of ships 14:51 <@Yexo> a more important question: will ships be able to cross eachother at crossings? 14:51 What's a "crossing"? 14:51 <@Yexo> one canal from south to north, one from east to west 14:51 <@Alberth> Yexo: have a state machine for that? 14:51 <@Yexo> Alberth: that would have to be generated automatically 14:52 Oh I never thought about that 14:52 * Alberth nods 14:52 <@Yexo> if not, it'd be very annoying as you would be severely limited in your options 14:52 Do canal crossings exists IRL? 14:52 <@Alberth> sure 14:52 Bilge: of course they do. how do you think ships enter canals? 14:52 I suppose you would have to treat it like the end of the canal 14:52 i.e. where it becomes regular river again 14:52 <@Yexo> think about a 2-tile wide canal from north to south and a 1-tile long channel from west to east that ends in the north-south channel 14:52 So that they can negotiate the crossing and then select a new course through the canal system 14:52 <@Yexo> the ships coming from the west want to turn both south and north 14:53 <@Yexo> so if the left of the north->south canal would be going south and the right north, ships going north would hvae to cross the southward ships 14:54 Bilge: other question: how do you want slower ships being overtaken by faster ships? 14:54 <@Alberth> Bilge: you cannot stop ships at a crossing, you'd get deadlock 14:54 <@Belugas> like trucks are, I would assum,e 14:55 Yexo: right, so they would have to wait until the stream was free 14:55 Belugas: but truck-overtaking is bad as well, currently 14:55 <@Yexo> as Alberth said, letting ships stop will lead to a deadlock easily 14:55 <@Belugas> indeed, Eddi|zuHause, indeed 14:55 <@Belugas> thus... 14:56 Alberth: not stop them at a crossing, just stop treating the block as my proposed special "canal" type so that it can negotiate its way to the next canal path 14:56 i.e. freestyle 14:56 <@Alberth> what is freestyle? 14:56 Pathing 14:56 With or without buoys as you please 14:56 <@Yexo> Bilge: but that would mean if I add a few stubs of single-canal tiles next to my canal the complete canal would turn into freestyle 14:56 <@Alberth> what if there is not path? 14:56 Bilge: and what if the path is blocked? 14:56 <@Yexo> which would defeat the point of your system 14:58 Eddi|zuHause: I imagine it would be similar to path signals for trains 14:59 If you have a single-width canal that crosses another single-width canal then the ship should never enter the canal system if it couldn't draw a path from start to finish 14:59 That is, if it wanted to swith directions and there was another ship oncoming from that direction 14:59 <@Alberth> then you cannot have ships closely after each other 14:59 -!- sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd 15:00 Bilge: imho it causes too many problems, and offer too little solutions. 15:00 I guess it's not worth discussing unless I'm actually going to program it anyway since nobody is going to run with it even if I could come up with an airtight design 15:00 rails have way more control over the available paths 15:00 <@Yexo> Alberth: you can if you store a direction with every reservation and allow multiple reservations per tile as long as the direction is the same 15:00 I suspect that if I was proposing the signalling system for trains right now it would be met with equal doubt 15:00 Yet we have that already 15:01 -!- andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 15:01 But i think you have to think of canals as rails for ships 15:01 <@Yexo> Bilge: the problem is not your suggestion, but rather the fact that it's currently not airtight 15:01 -!- andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 15:01 -!- Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 15:01 <@Yexo> as soon as you have an airtight solution somebody could start implementing it, not before 15:01 The open sea is a different animal altogether and pathfinding and buoys suffices for that 15:01 -!- andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 15:01 Bilge: what about one-tile-wide "open sea"? 15:02 I don't think I have enough experience with TTD internals to make it airtight 15:02 Bilge: what about a 20 tile wide canal? 15:02 <@Alberth> you don't need knowledge of internals 15:02 what defines "open sea"? 15:02 * andythenorth needs to read log clearly :P 15:02 Eddi|zuHause: I can't imagine that would ever be a real issue. The game knows the difference between a canal and the open sea even if just by virtue of the fact that the graphics tiles are different 15:02 <@Alberth> just an algorithm that makes the decision on a grid of tiles where some tiles are canal or sea would be sufficient 15:03 -!- Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe64de00-55.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 15:03 I can query a canal tile and it says "canal", whereas open sea is just "water" 15:03 The difference is well defined 15:03 Canals are created using the canal tool and open sea is created by modifying land height 15:03 <@Alberth> once you have that, it can be built into openttd 15:04 Bilge: but why would a one-tile-wide "open sea" be treated differently than a one-tile-wide canal? 15:04 <@Alberth> but the algorithm can be created in any language 15:04 * andythenorth would welcome water types :P 15:04 Because that's the beauty of having both in the game 15:04 dunno why, but it's obviously good 15:05 You, as the transport designer get to choose the one you want to use 15:05 how is that sane design? 15:05 <@Alberth> andythenorth: obviosuly, since salt water allows bigger transports :) 15:06 Because you can target canals as a destination for ships in my design whereas you cannot target open water 15:06 why would you need to target a canal? 15:07 you have buoys for targeting already 15:07 there is absolutely no reason to target a canal 15:07 Buoys would be invalid in canals 15:07 buoys are valid in canals 15:07 >would be 15:07 by 99.9% chance you won't get a proper savegame conversion then 15:08 You seem to be putting up artificial barriers in contrast to others who point out actual flaws in the design 15:09 i'm pointing at holes and practical problems in your supposed design 15:09 <@Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: that is no problem, since a feature like this should be optional anyway imo 15:09 <@Yexo> so old savegame would have this off by default 15:09 <@Yexo> and you simply wouldn't be able to turn it on as long as there are buoys in canals or similar conversion problems 15:12 ok, but that still does not answer the previous question: why on earth would you forbid buoys and move their functionality to canals, when buoys work perfectly fine currently? 15:15 <@Alberth> Bilge: you could see them as destinations in a canal, perhaps? 15:15 PS: the original lock question could be solved with "traffic objects" 15:17 if only$someone would finish those airport state machines :p 15:19 * Yexo is nowhere to be found :p 15:20 a lock could then be made similar to TTDP-locks, and at the same time limited to one ship 15:21 (which is not entirely "realistic", but enough of a hassle to make people optimise things 15:21 there could also be "double locks" where one side goes up and the other goes down simultaneously 15:23 all neatly confined to newgrfs, with absolutely no change to the default game 15:23 yarp 15:23 was also working on multi-stop docks 15:23 which would have the same game outcome as fooling with canals 15:24 i said that as well in the above discussion 15:25 limiting docks to one (or three) ships simultaneously 15:25 don't worry about canals at all 15:26 it would limit ship capacity in sufficient ways to make it interesting 15:26 and no state machine needed 15:27 anyone prepared to write state machines should work on seaplane airports :P 15:29 andythenorth can I send you a modified language file for FIRS? 15:30 I don't want to mess about creating accounts and learning bug tracking systems 15:30 post it in the FIRS dev thread 15:31 Do you have a link? 15:33 <@Alberth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=41607 15:34 If I signed up on the ottd site do I have access to this forum 15:34 <@Alberth> no 15:34 no forum account :O :) 15:34 <@Alberth> well, you always have read-only access :p 15:34 * andythenorth is shocked 15:34 you can try sending it to me direct from your irc client 15:35 it sometimes works, sometimes doesn't 15:35 <@Alberth> Bilge: dump it on a pastebin? 15:36 It is the responsibility of the sender to set up DCC correctly. Fortunately I know how to do that 15:36 I just signed up for the forum now anyway 15:36 -!- KritiK [~Maxim@95-26-18-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 15:36 <@Yexo> Bilge: if you create an account on the openttd site you can use it for the wiki, bug tracker and bananas 15:37 <@Yexo> for the forum you need a separate account, as well as yet another account for the openttdcoop devzone 15:38 -!- sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Quit: TTW - http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-third-tiberium-war] 15:38 I saw a list of things I could use it for and I was sure one of them was a forum - oh well :) 15:41 <@Alberth> the forum is run by another person 15:41 I have a feeling it might predate ottd also 15:42 <@Alberth> I wouldn't know, openttd predates me by several years :) 15:42 <@Yexo> the forum did indeed predate openttd 15:43 <@Yexo> by a few years I think 15:43 <@Alberth> at least when you start counting when I joined here for the first time :) 15:43 This seems a bit ironic to me: http://wiki.openttd.org/GUI_Style 15:44 <@Terkhen> I think that it also predates TTDPatch :P 15:44 One of the dialogs that annoys me the most is the "Message from vehicle manufaturer" window because it violates good UI design yet is included on a page about GUI style 15:45 <@Terkhen> "Since OpenTTD is a game of the 1990s, it should also have that look and feel." <--- that does not mean it is a good UI design :P 15:45 By common windows layout conventions the affirmative should be the first button in left-to-right reading environments 15:45 So the "yes" and "no" buttons are the wrong way round 15:46 Every single time it pops up I nearly click the wrong one by that habit introduced by every other program (good) program out there 15:46 hmm 15:46 ttd original probably predates some of the people now submitting ottd patches :P 15:46 <@Terkhen> my habit introduced by years of playing TT / OpenTTD would make me click on the wrong one if that was changed 15:47 "Since OpenTTD is a game of the 1990s, it should also have that look and feel." 15:47 should be suffixed "except if you use giant icons + fonts" 15:47 Also the first thing i looked for was an option to move the close button to the right side of the window 15:47 <@Terkhen> hmm... although I usually just use DEL to delete whatever uninteresting window pops up to annoy me 15:48 It's never going to look like a game of the 1990s unless you crank out an old CRT monitor running 640x480 15:48 Bilge: all your conventions are not my conventions :) 15:48 I don't disagree that they are windows conventions 15:49 You might have spent a little too much time with OTTD then ;p 15:49 by accident OTTD is closer to OS X / classic Mac OS 15:49 in some respects 15:49 Don't get me wrong, I played the original game back in 1994 for hours 15:49 But I'm looking at it now with a pair of eyes from 2011 15:49 the GUI does suck in numerous places, but that's kind of known 15:49 <@Terkhen> probably because when TT was released windows was not even an OS 15:49 Just because it was like that in the past doesn't mean it shouldn't be improved today 15:49 fixing one bit starts to unpick others 15:50 Terkhen: when it was released, you had to boot windows 3.1 15:50 <@Terkhen> :D 15:50 from your 256MB hard drive 15:50 <@Terkhen> that thing was annoying 15:50 andythenorth: when it was released you had to dual boot your PC into DOS mode because Windows used up too much memory to run games 15:50 256meg? 15:50 luxury! 15:50 right, what are we coding? 15:51 <@Terkhen> andythenorth: newgrf debug gui for town persistent storage, soon I'll start testing :) 15:51 Terkhen: ooh, whats that? 15:52 <@Terkhen> Katje_: registers for towns that all NewGRFs can access (under some restrictions to avoid a descent to madness) 15:53 <@Terkhen> andythenorth has a lot of ideas in that direction about this feature :) 15:53 what does that mean to me as a player ? 15:53 <@Terkhen> industry and house newgrfs will be able to implement new cool features 15:54 such as... 15:54 <@Terkhen> towns having distinct building styles for example 15:54 ooh 15:57 cool features 15:57 electricity :P 15:57 a town won't be able to access another town's storage by putting the town id in register 101h? 15:57 nvm 15:58 <@Terkhen> no :P 15:58 it's not a good way to do pipelines anyway 15:58 I *know* pipelines are wrong 15:58 but every time I have oil wells ~16 tiles from the shore, I want one 15:58 <@Terkhen> hmm... how are town persistent storage and pipelines related? 15:59 they're not 15:59 I test things by thinking aloud :P 15:59 <@Alberth> andythenorth: just draw a 1 tile pumping station for putting at the shore :p 16:02 I think that's done in DWE set ;) 16:02 cheating :P 16:02 above ground pipelines, like alaska 16:02 hold on there is pipelines as a feature? 16:02 no no 16:02 awww 16:02 nor is there likely to be, except by abusive newgrfs 16:03 they would be a great feature... 16:03 they are not transport (allegedly) 16:03 * andythenorth somewhat disagrees 16:03 so does the source of all human knowledge 16:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport 16:04 lol 16:05 -!- firefoxfan [firefoxfan@catv-80-98-31-161.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #openttd 16:05 he 16:05 I love mumbai http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Borivali_station_peak_hours.jpg 16:06 hmm "The engineering of this roundabout in Bristol, United Kingdom, attempts to make traffic flow free-moving" 16:06 it kind of works 16:06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Roundabout.bristol.arp.jpg 16:06 <@Alberth> we should have a trainset with people on the roof etc 16:06 but it sucks to cycle through 16:06 Alberth: that's being done 16:06 2CC set 16:07 <@Terkhen> for real? 16:07 look in the thread 16:08 * andythenorth bought a suit in that roundabout picture 16:08 in the building bottom left 16:08 but enough about me :P 16:08 <@peter1138> andythenorth, technically the yellow boxes are implied on all rounadabouts 16:08 <@Terkhen> I assumed it was a joke :O 16:08 <@peter1138> just everybody ignores that 16:08 <@peter1138> -a 16:09 wiki-surfing is always fun :P 16:10 so. 16:10 pipelines? 16:12 <@Terkhen> infrastructure that transport constant amounts of cargo over time without needing a vehicle? 16:12 yes 16:12 same underlying spec could also do ropeways, skilifts etc 16:12 funicular :P 16:13 <@Terkhen> it would need a completely new way of moving cargopackets around 16:13 and some work on the map array no doubt 16:13 might be tmwftlb, but I don't think it's a wrong concept 16:14 <@Terkhen> I agree on both of your statements :P 16:14 for gameplay I would limit it to 'occupies the tile, unless you tunnel explicitly' 16:14 <@Terkhen> it might be wrong regarding the "openttd is about transport companies" design principle 16:14 i.e. you can't just place start + end point 16:14 every tile between point A and B must contain this transport type 16:15 you could maybe tunnel, but same limitations as current - no corners, no crossing 16:16 move the packets using invisible vehicles 16:17 number of vehicles is a function of 'capacity' 16:17 player chooses capacity when building 16:17 capacity can be upgraded or downgraded by overbuilding 16:17 smallest capacity tile on entire point-point route determines actual capacity used 16:18 use the tram pathfinder 16:19 <@planetmaker> [21:54] Terkhen towns having distinct building styles for example <--hmm... :-) I didn't think of *that* 16:19 <@planetmaker> awesome :-) 16:19 <@Terkhen> andythenorth's idea :) 16:19 can already be done near enough 16:19 <@Terkhen> first house to be placed "decides" on the building style and stores it in a register, the rest of houses follow that decision 16:19 you could already do that: check town ID for example, have rules for odd / even, divide by 3, whatever scheme you want 16:19 <@planetmaker> andythenorth: you can kinda retrieve the next town's 'style' by querying distinct houses 16:19 <@planetmaker> it's an abuse, but could work 16:20 -!- ChoHag [~mking@109-170-148-201.xdsl.murphx.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20 <@Terkhen> but now you can base your decision on stuff like "tiles from water" or "tile height" and store it (I never checked house callbacks but I'm assuming the usual stuff) 16:20 <@Terkhen> s/now/when it is done/ ;) 16:21 no-one has shot down my pipeline idea :P 16:21 * andythenorth expects arguments to be tested :D 16:21 <@planetmaker> Terkhen: I think we *urgently* need a new town set :-P 16:21 planetmaker: why? 16:22 <@planetmaker> [22:20] Terkhen but now you can base your decision on stuff like "tiles from water" or "tile height" and store it (I never checked house callbacks but I'm assuming the usual stuff) <-- that's why :-P 16:22 <@Terkhen> andythenorth: I find it conceptually correct, but too much work 16:22 terrain-dependent towns? 16:22 <@planetmaker> yup 16:22 * andythenorth wonders 16:22 if we went digging in 60+ vars that might be possible now 16:22 or maybe even just in <60+ vars 16:23 who draws it? 16:24 <@Terkhen> Zephyris procedural tool? :P 16:25 he should adjust the lighting in that case :P 16:25 * andythenorth is broken record 16:25 -!- TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:32 -!- andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:32 -!- andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:35 * andythenorth should code some new FIRS 16:35 andythenorth, what does this line mean: #define TEXT_INFO_MS_PRIMARY_BOOST "\98Manufacturing supplies double production from other cargos.\0D\0D\80" 16:35 Keeping in mind I haven't played FIRS yet 16:35 Doesn't it mean FOR other cargo? 16:36 Or even, for other INDUSTRY? 16:36 that line is possibly not used in current FIRS 16:36 let me check for you ;) 16:36 Thanks bro 16:37 yup not used - don't bother translating 16:37 we haven't been removing old language defines 16:37 maybe we should 16:38 I'm translating it into English 16:39 interesting direction :) 16:39 haha yes 16:42 The phrase "within a month" is used a lot but how does that work exactly? 16:43 From the way it's worded I gather it doesn't have to be the same month 16:43 Like febrary to march would be OK 16:43 But is it 30 days? 16:43 <@Terkhen> you should play before trying to translate it 16:43 What about months with 28 days? 16:43 Even if I played I still wouldn't have the answer to that 16:44 currently it's inconsistent 16:44 for some cargos it's within the same calendar month 16:44 <@planetmaker> a month is a calander month 16:44 for others it's within ~30 days 16:44 it should be made consistent :P 16:45 here['someone'] can do that when it's converted to nml 16:46 I won't bother trying to make the text read any clearer then 16:49 the cargos and industry names are quite stable 16:50 the industry window texts might change in future versions 16:54 'night 16:54 -!- Wolf01 [~wolf01@host68-239-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 16:55 <@planetmaker> I like your "good news, bad news" - posting, Eddi|zuHause ;-) 16:55 Bilge: the file didn't transfer :( 16:55 dcc often fails 16:55 Yeah I see that 16:56 Might be this crappy windows firewall 16:56 <@planetmaker> dccs never reach me ;-) 16:56 <@Belugas> END OF THE FREAKING DAY!!!!! 16:57 <@Belugas> YOUHOU!!!! 16:57 <@Belugas> so... go home and keep onbuilding my walls!! 16:57 <@Belugas> bye all 16:59 <@Terkhen> enjoy Belugas :) 17:00 <@planetmaker> enjoy, Belugas :-) 17:01 Bilge: try http://paste.openttdcoop.org/ 17:01 Can you just accept this one first? :) 17:01 I did already ;) 17:01 dcc rarely works 17:01 The second one? 17:01 yup 17:02 we have a work irc where we run our own server with everything supported - it doesn't work even there 17:02 -!- Amis [~Amis@5400EA7C.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:03 -!- elmz_ [~elmz@184.213-167-126.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:05 I can't attach a file on the forum that doesn't work either 17:05 >The extension pnfo is not allowed. 17:05 Real 17:05 yup :( 17:05 As if the file name in any way denoted the type of content I'm uploading 17:05 have to zip it :( 17:05 or change the extension to .txt 17:06 I just renamed it to .zip 17:06 Needing someone is like needing a parachute. If he isn't there the first time you need him, chances are you won't be needing him again. 17:06 :D 17:06 great saying 17:10 he 17:10 now my mac thinks it is a zip 17:10 and is trying to decompress it 17:10 :) 17:11 change file type? 17:11 or will that break your mac? 17:11 * andythenorth tries 17:11 -!- andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 17:11 -!- elmz [~elmz@184.213-167-126.customer.lyse.net] has joined #openttd 17:11 <@Alberth> Chris_Booth: clearly, it did :p 17:11 lol 17:12 -!- andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:12 duke nukem is being released :o 17:12 <@Alberth> you managed to unbreak your mac? 17:12 apparently 17:12 http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150640459400274&set=a.10150167427380274.416740.831615273&type=1 17:13 that is so true ^ 17:13 <3 stumble 17:15 I am never quite sure why I have this channel on my start up list, not as if I talk in here much unless I am trying to annoy someone 17:15 because you like openttd? 17:16 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 17:16 yes but I have other openttd channels that I uses 17:16 blasphemy!! 17:16 think its the same reason I join #tycoon 17:16 thou shall not have an openttd channel besides us! 17:17 realy, not even a realy nice server channel 17:17 or nice dev channel? 17:17 *shallst 17:17 -!- roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:17 I shalst have to @kbanme from all other openttd channels then 17:18 otherwise I am breaking the rules of this channel 17:20 first person never has -st ending 17:20 Chris_Booth: you could remove the auto-join 17:20 try it 17:20 life might get better 17:21 andythenorth: no that would make my IRC client explode 17:23 nice, about 16% of pupils failed that high-school final exams (das Abitur) ... it was the first year when there was a common part of exams that was the same for all schools 17:23 nice 17:24 * andythenorth wonders 17:25 guess young people dont drink enough beer SmatZ 17:25 all those vodka and shit ... 17:25 <@Yexo> SmatZ: only part of it is the same? is the rest made by each school separately? 17:25 are advanced sprite layouts documented on ttdp wiki? 17:25 Yexo: yes, it has 2 parts afaik 17:25 <@Yexo> andythenorth: not sure, but they are here: http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Extended_Sprite_Layout 17:26 hmm 17:26 that's a lot of stuff to add to current ttdp wiki page :o 17:26 maybe it needs its own page 17:26 yup :s 17:26 wow 16% is high, is it a hard exam? 17:26 Yexo: yeah 17:26 i guess the current station action 0 page first needs splitting 17:27 moving all the general blabla (what is a bounding box) to a separate page 17:28 that would make sense 17:28 -!- DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:28 but currently the action 0 page is already too hard to understand :p 17:28 so i did not dare adding more stuff :p 17:28 yes 17:28 SmatZ: when they introduced "western" standards for "Abitur" here, they switched between a very hard one and a very easy one each year, until they met the proper difficulty in the middle like after 10 years ;) 17:29 it took me too long to understand that stations worked differently to house / industry tiles :P 17:29 Eddi|zuHause: hehe :) 17:29 :D 17:29 it's too late today to rework that wiki for me :| 17:29 there were test exams in October 17:29 -!- enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:30 so they rougly knew how hard the exams are... expectations were 15%-20% of students will fail :) 17:30 -!- KouDy1 [~KouDy@ip-94-112-27-160.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:30 frosch123: linking here from TTDP wiki is considered cheating? http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Extended_Sprite_Layout 17:30 andythenorth: does that help anything? 17:30 <@Yexo> andythenorth: that's a bad idea imo 17:30 the current spec is only an add-on spec 17:30 only reminding someone not to forget 17:31 and i already added a note to the wiki 17:31 <@Yexo> mostly because it's splitting the spec across two wikis 17:31 -!- roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 17:31 also there are quite some corner cases which need pointing out better 17:31 so, the whole spritelayout stuff needs renewing 17:32 SmatZ: so it was exactly in the expected range, where is the problem? :p 17:32 ok 17:32 I was considering trying some extended layouts with FIRS 17:32 * frosch123 remembers a test with an exponential distribution for the results: 1/2 failed, 1/4 got 4.0, 1/8 got 3.7, 1/16 gor 3.3, ... 17:33 Eddi|zuHause: there's no problem :) it just makes me happy the quality of high schools might rise 17:33 and so there's a common scale of knowledge for all schools 17:33 <@Yexo> here they just average the results so they expected number of students fails 17:34 so universities can take the "score" for the final exams into account when accepting students 17:34 <@Yexo> doesn't matter how good or bad the students from that year are, they'll adjust the results so that approximately the same amount of students fail 17:34 Yexo: interesting 17:35 well, from my experience with exams (revising, not doing myself), there is usually quite a gap in the results. so you can easily separate failing from passed 17:35 -!- enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd 17:35 that is how most university's in the UK work, they set out limits of the grades as a % of students 17:36 * andythenorth -> bed 17:36 -!- andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 17:36 and then give out 1st 2nd etc according to where you sat along the curve of results 17:36 means they can make grades look as good or as bad as they want 17:36 which is rather stupid 17:36 I wonder what effect on above-average students can have the fact that they know that 5% of students will fail 17:37 and that they are unlikely to fail, even if they won't study well for the exams 17:37 <@peter1138> 5 17:37 or more? 17:37 its about 30% fail rates for 3rd year degrees 17:37 uh :) 17:38 SmatZ: i don't think that has any effect at all 17:38 it also isn't all subjects 17:38 Chris_Booth: university is a whole different picture 17:38 SmatZ: i know a lot who skipped any preparation, if they were sure they would somehow pass 17:38 Chris_Booth: like 80% drop out during the first two semesters 17:39 Eddi|zuHause: what university did you go to? 17:39 a normal one. 17:39 -!- roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:39 numbers may vary drastically depending on what topic you study 17:39 and whether that topic was restricted in the first place 17:39 (numerus clausus) 17:40 we had about 50% drop out on my course 17:40 and that was high the university said 17:40 but we ended up with only 15 people on the course :D 17:41 -!- Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [] 17:42 -!- frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f65ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:42 <@planetmaker> Chris_Booth: my smallest university courses were myself and two other fellows. One of them dropped half-way ;-) 17:43 that is small I thought 15 was small 17:43 most of my friends have 100s of people on there course 17:44 i had a lecture with one other guy and the professor 17:45 advanced analysis ;) 17:46 with really cool tidbits on the sidelines... like "Gauss took a few seminars at this university. but they usually refrain from calling him a 'student'" :p 17:49 -!- firefoxfan [firefoxfan@catv-80-98-31-161.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:53 * planetmaker usually shows visiting friends the school where Gauss summed up the numbers of 0 ... 100 much too fast for his teacher's liking ;-) 17:54 ;) 17:55 * Eddi|zuHause wonders whether that actually happened, or they just made that stuff up to torture innocent pupils 17:56 <@planetmaker> it's not unlikely. With a bit of thinking that formula is very clear 17:57 <@planetmaker> \sum_i=1^n = (n+1)*n/2 = (n*n + n) / 2 17:58 yes, but it's very unlikely they had that notation back then :p 17:58 <@planetmaker> sum 1 ... 100 = (100+1) + (99+2) + (98+3) + ... 17:58 <@planetmaker> not needed ;-) 17:58 i know the formula 17:59 -!- goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-065-228-102.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:59 * planetmaker has a mis-aligned grid sprite :S 18:01 <@Terkhen> good night 18:01 <@planetmaker> g'night Terkhen 18:08 nn 18:10 -!- Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 18:13 -!- Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0497ba.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 18:19 <@planetmaker> btw, Eddi|zuHause do you still need an action5 block for or have you added it already? 18:20 planetmaker: i think what i did worked, just nforenum bails 18:20 <@planetmaker> http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/index.php?folder=gridswitch/ <-- you could take this grfcodec patch 18:20 with an overly dramatic error 18:20 <@planetmaker> adopt the number of sprites accordingly 18:20 i just think it could be less fatal of an error 18:21 <@planetmaker> possibly 18:22 <@planetmaker> it's just a two-line change to grfcodec / nforenum, though 18:22 i'm not compiling it myself 18:22 <@planetmaker> well ;-) 18:23 <@planetmaker> definitely not more complicated than openttd 18:29 my philosophy is "don't compile anything that you don't have to" 18:31 -!- Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:34 -!- Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 18:35 -!- Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-006-129.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 18:36 -!- Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:42 -!- Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 18:44 -!- pugi [~pugi@p4FCC1E32.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 18:53 -!- Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.108.152] has quit [Quit: Sleep.] 18:53 planetmaker: you here 24/7? 18:56 -!- Progman [~progman@p57A1A5C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:58 -!- Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:00 -!- enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:01 -!- enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd 19:04 -!- JVassie [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:04 -!- JVassie [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 19:04 Guess not 19:04 <@Yexo> Bilge: he uses a bouncer, which means he'll appear to be online for 24/7 19:04 <@Yexo> that doesn't mean he's at his computer the whole time 19:05 <@Yexo> but you can highlight him at any time of the day and he'll read your message when he is 19:05 By contrast you ARE here 24/7 :P 19:06 <@Yexo> not for any longer, as I'm going to sleep now ;) 19:06 -!- sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:09 are you asking anybody now who writes something, whether he is online 24/7? 19:14 Everyone but you Eddi 19:22 -!- amkoroew1 [~Heinz@p5B107F1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 19:25 -!- amkoroew [~Heinz@p5B1022DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:40 -!- zachanim1 [~zach@2506ds3-od.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:52 -!- zachanima [~zach@2506ds3-od.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 19:57 -!- enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: good night] 20:02 -!- JVassie [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:05 -!- KritiK [~Maxim@95-26-18-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:10 -!- DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@ppp118-209-24-43.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #openttd 20:11 -!- supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 20:12 -!- welshdragon [~dragon@anubis.millsie.net] has left #openttd [Leaving] 20:27 -!- Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Tschüß] --- Log closed Tue Jun 07 20:32:43 2011 --- Log opened Tue Jun 07 20:32:45 2011 20:32 -!- mikegrb [~michael@mikegrb.netop.oftc.net] has joined #openttd --- Log closed Tue Jun 07 20:32:45 2011 --- Log opened Tue Jun 07 20:36:49 2011 20:36 -!- mikegrb [~michael@mikegrb.netop.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 20:36 -!- Irssi: #openttd: Total of 103 nicks [7 ops, 0 halfops, 2 voices, 94 normal] 20:38 -!- Irssi: Join to #openttd was synced in 111 secs 20:40 -!- enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd 20:41 -!- Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51 -!- enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:14 -!- fjb is now known as Guest3816 21:14 -!- fjb [~frank@p5DDFD1A4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 21:15 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:20 -!- Bilge [~bilge@92.28.197.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:21 -!- Guest3816 [~frank@p5DDFD5AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:30 -!- Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:49 -!- supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:25 -!- rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-147-018.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 22:31 -!- rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:06 -!- glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:d473:6e41:9fb4:20f3] has quit [Quit: bye] 23:14 -!- tparker [~tparker@beacon.ithybia.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:22 -!- tparker [~tparker@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe93:9541] has joined #openttd 23:25 -!- tparker [~tparker@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe93:9541] has quit [] 23:34 -!- tparker [~tparker@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe93:9541] has joined #openttd 23:34 -!- Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe64de00-55.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 23:53 -!- tparker [~tparker@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe93:9541] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:53 <@Terkhen> good morning 23:58 -!- tparker [~tparker@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe93:9541] has joined #openttd --- Log closed Wed Jun 08 00:00:44 2011