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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-06-07

---Logopened Tue Jun 07 00:00:36 2011
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01:54<@Terkhen>good morning
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02:30<@planetmaker>moin Terkhen
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03:45<dihedral>good morning
03:45<@Terkhen>hi dihedral
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04:08<@planetmaker>oi dihedral
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05:32<dihedral>:-)
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05:41<keky___>m
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06:01<aZ>guys, im trying to load a map on my VPS server but I receive the following error message http://pastebin.com/pYZLgEd4
06:02<@peter1138>does it load locally on your pc?
06:03<aZ>yeah mate, on Windows tho
06:03<aZ>VPS is ubuntu, incase that matters
06:03<aZ>ive been trying for 2 days
06:03<@peter1138>missing newgrfs on the server?
06:04<aZ>mmm, not sure
06:04<aZ>can i check that from the shell?
06:04<aZ>or commandline
06:06<@Terkhen>that error is quite strange
06:07<@Terkhen>oh, there is another in the middle
06:07<@Terkhen>aZ: you changed NewGRFs ingame probably
06:08<aZ>there are no newgrfs when I run it from my local machine
06:08<aZ>when i look at it in scenario editor
06:08<@Terkhen>which version are you running on windows and which one at your server?
06:09<aZ>both 1.1
06:09<@Terkhen>the savegame is quite old, right?
06:09<@Terkhen>could you upload it somewhere so we can check it?
06:10<aZ>i can but maybe we should check ive got it right
06:11<@planetmaker>the savegame must be quite old
06:12<@Terkhen>even if it is old it should be loaded correctly, but it might have some bug that is detected in recent versions
06:12<aZ>i downloaded a scenario file that was for 0.7, i opened it in 1.1 scenario editor and saved it. i then started the scenario and made the sav which I uploaded
06:12<@planetmaker>oh... scenario files may be arbitrarily tempered with
06:12<@planetmaker>some on bananas are _quite_ ugly, if not unusable
06:13<@planetmaker>:-(
06:13<aZ>ah, was confused with the difference between .scn an .sav
06:14<@planetmaker>there's none ;-)
06:14<@planetmaker>but what bothers me with your paste is that generating the random map failed
06:14<@planetmaker>Or do you get successfully a (random) map?
06:15<@planetmaker>do you have a link to the sav / scn in question?
06:16<aZ>yeah ive successfully test a random map, connected to it fine
06:16<aZ>this scn http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=106933&sid=cf9b25bd2434295cd86308acb7999ddf
06:17<aZ>i needed version 2 of this map because it uses more Scottish town names
06:18<aZ>from the page at http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=42124
06:18*peter1138 wonders if nibbling on coffee beans is perhaps not the best idea
06:18<aZ>I've missed something?
06:18<@Terkhen>I can't find many of the NewGRFs on that scenario on the online content
06:19<@planetmaker>neither I
06:19<aZ>ah
06:19<@Terkhen>are you sure you have those?
06:19<aZ>lol, no
06:19<aZ>sorry
06:19<@Terkhen>well, this was the first question that was asked :P
06:19<@planetmaker>^
06:19<@Terkhen>if you don't have all NewGRFs games will fail
06:19<aZ>dont have them local either but the map still works?
06:20<@Terkhen>no, your game will fail at some point
06:20<@planetmaker>aZ, locally it *might* work. But a network server has to have in all cases 100% the exact matching NewGRFs. Also compatibility doesn't suffice
06:21<aZ>gads
06:21<aZ>what about finding those newgrfs?
06:21<aZ>yous got access to an archieve or something?
06:22<@planetmaker>Many from that are not in our online content archive.
06:22<@planetmaker>you gotta search forums or grfcrawler for it. Probably unsuccessful, too, though
06:22<@planetmaker>I haven't heart of many of those :-P
06:23<@Terkhen>I would ask the scenario creator directly
06:23<aZ>how about editing the scenario to remove those newgrfs?
06:24<@planetmaker>newgrfs are part of the map...
06:25<aZ>one of them was viaduct.grf for example, wouldnt mind if there wasnt ciaducts
06:26<aZ>damn, thats annoying
06:26<aZ>thanks for all the help guys
06:26<@planetmaker>us a height map ;-)
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06:41<Bilge>Is there a newgrf that adds a lot more working industry types? There was a pack that came with the UK scenario but it doesn't work
06:41<@Yexo>firs, ecs and pbi
06:41<@planetmaker>firs, ecs newgrfs, pbi
06:41<@Yexo>;)
06:42<@planetmaker>opengfx+ industries actually, too. You can there combine the default industries somewhat arbitrarily
06:42<@planetmaker>thus you'll have more, too
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06:43<Eddi|zuHause>damn... i was too quick in the shop, and grabbed fanta mango...
06:43<Bilge>So there's three separate projects?
06:43<Bilge>Or do they work together somehow
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>they don't work together
06:43<@Terkhen>they are stand alone
06:43<@Yexo>you can only use one of them at the same time
06:44<@Yexo>if you mean they work together as in share work: some of the graphics are shared IIRC
06:44<@planetmaker>they'll deactivate in the presence of other industry newgrfs
06:44<Bilge>No I meant can you combine them
06:44<@planetmaker>Not at all. Don't even try ;-)
06:44<@Yexo>Bilge: there is a limit of 32 different cargo types. Each of those newgrfs is already close to that limit (but each uses some different cargo types)
06:45<Bilge>I don't see a section on the forums for newgrfs
06:45<Bilge>Where can I find them?
06:45<@planetmaker>in the newgrf section ;-)
06:45<@planetmaker>also call graphics section
06:46<@planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=66
06:46<Bilge>They are more than just graphics though right? They also contain logic
06:46<@Yexo>yes
06:46<@planetmaker>yes. They can even be only logic
06:46<Bilge>Bit misleading
06:46<@planetmaker>or only graphics
06:46<@planetmaker>Yes, it is
06:46<@planetmaker>historical reasons, I guess
06:47<@Yexo>previously they were in the "ttdpatch graphics" section, that was even more confusing
06:47<@planetmaker>:-)
06:47<@planetmaker>hm... maybe it should be renamed to Transport Tycoon Add-ons Development :-)
06:47<@planetmaker>or s/Add-ons/NewGRFs/
06:47<Bilge>Do you have an opinion on which of those three is the best, i.e. most comprehensive? Save me time trying to find a thread for each of them
06:48<@planetmaker>Bilge, as co-author of both FIRS and OpenGFX+Industries I might be biased ;-)
06:48<Bilge>:3
06:48<Bilge>You might also be correct
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06:48<@planetmaker>it really depends, though. They all three are quite different from how they influence the game and what playing style they 'require'
06:48<@Yexo>Bilge: neither of them is best. PBI is most strict with stockpile limits, that is why I personally don't like it. Other find that a very good feature however
06:49<Bilge>I noticed that both of you listed them in the same order, maybe that's subliminaly your order of preference :3
06:49<@Yexo>opengfx+industries has the least changes from the default industries, I'd strongly recommend it over just using the default industries as it improves the graphics in several situations
06:49<Bilge>Stockpile limits? Like how much is waiting in a station?
06:49<@planetmaker>no. for processing at an industry
06:49<@Yexo>no, how much you can deliver to an industry per month
06:49<@planetmaker>:-)
06:50<Bilge>Are you twins?
06:50<@Yexo>so for a steel mill you have to deliver both coal and iron ore. If you stop supplying iron ore the steel mill will stop accepting coal after a while
06:50<@planetmaker>we've only met once in our lives ;-)
06:50<Bilge>At birth? :D
06:50<@planetmaker>one year ago ;-)
06:50<Bilge>Wow, so young
06:50<@Terkhen>:D
06:50<@planetmaker>:-)
06:51<@planetmaker>Bilge, I suppose that 90% of the channel's participants here are younger than me. At least ;-)
06:52<Bilge>I kind of like that mechanic Yexo since it makes more sense but I'm surprised that a "graphics pack" can introduce such a significant feature
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06:52<Bilge>I am not accustomed to the power of newgrfs
06:52<@planetmaker>consider newgrfs not graphics but mods
06:53<@Yexo>that is exactly why questions "which is best" cannot be universally answered :)
06:53<Bilge>I wish they were called that since "newgrf" is a really strange name particularly for a newcomer
06:53<@planetmaker>and as 'mods' they're also integral part of a map - and cannot be removed or added after game start ;-)
06:53<@planetmaker>Bilge, you're totally right :-)
06:54<Bilge>I guess you have no way of knowing which mods work together
06:54<Bilge>i.e. no way to prevent conflict than by trial and error
06:54<@planetmaker>But this format developed over the last >6(?) years or so
06:55<@planetmaker>thus it grew from simple graphic replacements, over simple changes of few things to what we have now. And still extend now
06:55<Bilge>I appreciate that but it's never too late to give it a new name and simply call them mods going forward
06:55<@planetmaker>Bilge, you can basically only test. Or read the Newgrf descriptions
06:56<@planetmaker>Bilge, also true. But... I have the feeling it's not time yet. This format is shared with another game - which makes things even more complicated
06:56<@Yexo>Bilge: one of the problems I have with "mods" is that "mod" can be more easily confused with source code patches
06:56<@Yexo>which are also "mods" in a way
06:56<TWerkhoven>plugins?
06:56<@planetmaker>also good name. But what about AIs then?
06:56<@Yexo>no problem there I'd say
06:56<@Yexo>just keep calling those AIs
06:57<@planetmaker>they're also plug-ins of sorts ;-)
06:57<@planetmaker>but sure
06:57<TWerkhoven>plugins-ai?
06:57<@planetmaker>that's double naming
06:58<TWerkhoven>i suppose if banana's gets sections, ai's could get their own section just like infrastructure or trains, but still all would be plugins
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06:58<@planetmaker>they have their own there...
06:58<@planetmaker>as do base grfs. and height maps and scenarios
06:58<@planetmaker>that's why it's BaNaNaS
06:58<@Yexo>TWerkhoven: AIs are not coded in the grf format, but in the squirrel language
06:59<TWerkhoven>ah
06:59<@Yexo>there are also different rules for changing AIs in a running game
06:59<@planetmaker>Base grfs and Newgrfs and NoAIs and Scenarios
06:59<@Yexo>so they're conceptually different from newgrfs
06:59<Bilge>What is the other game?
06:59<@Yexo>TTDPatch
06:59<@planetmaker>TTDPatch
06:59<@planetmaker>:-D
06:59<Bilge>That's a GAME?
06:59<Bilge>It sounds like a patcher for the same game
06:59<@Yexo>actually is a modification of the original transport tycoon deluxe game
07:00<Bilge>Like something you would use to install mods because the game itself doesn't support such a feature
07:00<Bilge>Some pretty poor naming conventions going on around here :P
07:00<@Yexo>it is exactly that
07:00<@Yexo>TTDPatch existed long before OpenTTD
07:01<@Yexo>however OpenTTD has by now implemented almost all features TTDPatch has (and a lot more)
07:01<@Yexo>noticeable missing feature is custom bridge heads
07:01<@planetmaker>TTD is the common ancestor. TTDPatch was there around pretty soon then. And OpenTTD is a rewrite of the same game
07:02<@planetmaker>but neither TTD nor TTDPatch are really much maintained anymore
07:02<@planetmaker>thus OpenTTD is where nearly all development happens
07:03<Bilge>OpenTTD is amazing by the way, really good job on that. I played the original game when I was a kid, still got it on Microprose CD, but OpenTTD makes the game accessible on todays systems while also breathing new life into the game. I can't live without autoreplace. I could put up with it when I was a kid but replacing mass amounts of old vehicles isn't fun
07:03<@Yexo>Bilge: a few years ago the "advanced settings" menu was called "configure patches", that really was confusing
07:03<@planetmaker>^
07:04<@planetmaker>He, but now you also have much more vehicles and much larger maps. So sure, that needs new tools for mass-management ;-)
07:04<Bilge>Speaking of advanced settings, I was sure there was a setting to control how frequently the game creates new industries during play but now I can't find it anywhere. DOes it exist?
07:04<@Yexo>in difficulty options
07:04<@planetmaker>only in the new game settings
07:04<@planetmaker>hm, also there... I wonder how they relate :-)
07:04<Bilge>I kind of dislike how scenarios bypass game settings
07:04<@planetmaker>Bilge, they're that: 'scenarios'. Crafted to pose a challange
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>manually replacing engines isn't as problematic when you
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>are limited to 80 trains
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>and a tick takes 2 seconds
07:05<@planetmaker>was 80 the limit?
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>in TTO, yes
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>80 trains, 80 rv, 40 planes, 40 ships iirc
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07:06<Eddi|zuHause>and 360 vehicles in total (including wagons)
07:06<Bilge>There needs to be a new type that includes terrain and towns/industries then because sometimes I just want to play the scenario with my own settings but a height map doesn't include settlements and industries
07:06<@Yexo>that is a work in progress (or at least was) by alberth
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: yes, that is probably one of the next developments
07:07<@planetmaker>it makes sense to have a newgrf-independent scenario type, yes
07:07<@planetmaker>and setting-independent
07:08<@planetmaker>a cross-breed of height map and scenario :-)
07:08<Bilge>Have you noticed that when you browse the newgrf respository you get a nice description about what it does but after you've downloaded it you can't see that description any more
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
07:09<@Yexo>yes
07:09<Bilge>So if you end up with newgrfs in your library due to scenarios downloading them then you have no way to retroactively discover what they do
07:09<@planetmaker>yes
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>i complained about that multiple times
07:09<@Yexo>you can still read a description in the newgrf info window
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07:09<Bilge>Yeah but it's not the same one
07:09<@Yexo>if the grf doesn't have a good description there, complain to the grf author
07:09<Bilge>It's often missing or obscure
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>it was very restricted in length in the past
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07:10<@Yexo>it's only limited by the amount of space available in the window
07:10<@Yexo>which scales if you resize it, so that's not an argument anymore
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but that was like 3 lines in older TTDPatch
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07:11<@Yexo>and in openttd versions before the new newgrf window
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>and a majority of (important) GRFs are way older
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>but the readme viewer could solve that
07:12<Bilge>You also have no way of visiting any links in descriptions, even by copying text
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>or a way to access the bananas description
07:12<@Yexo>bananas description is also very limited in size
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>yep, copying or opening browser is ... non-trivial
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07:13<@planetmaker>Bilge, we'll need a way to copy&paste and open browsers on all OS ;-)
07:13<@planetmaker>and opening browsers (which?) is not trivial
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>not "all" OSes, but the most common ones.
07:14<@planetmaker>+supported ;-)
07:14<@Yexo>linux variants are the hard part wrt opening a browser
07:14<Bilge>I'm not too worried about opening the browser but being able to copy text is pretty important
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>Windows is probably easiest, but also Mac OS X, and various Linuxes (Debian, Ubuntu, Suse) with desktop environments (KDE, Gnome, other)
07:14<@planetmaker>it may sound like not much, but it means to change A LOT, Bilge ;-)
07:14<Bilge>Although I realise there's actually no selection and copying scheme in the game at the moment besides maybe the input boxes
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: the implementation complexity is probably equal for both features
07:15<@Terkhen>paste is actually implemented on windows
07:15<@Terkhen>s/on/for/
07:15<@planetmaker>also on osx
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: wagons can be selected, and vehicles drag&dropped
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07:15<Bilge>But not text
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>but that is probably not helpful
07:16<@planetmaker>I can paste it on windows and osx
07:16<@Terkhen>for linux I looked into paste support from SDL, it seems that the feature has been in development since 2004 or so
07:16<@planetmaker>helpful for server IPs
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: getting it to mark the text is almost trivial
07:16<Bilge>Really? So what's the complication? Cross-platform clipboards?
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: getting the text into the clipboard is problematic
07:17<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, if you can read the clipboard it should by its sister or brother routines also be feasible to write it...
07:18<@planetmaker>I think half the work will be to enable the option to select texts...
07:18<Bilge>It seems that ECS was the pack that came with the UK scenario that didn't work but the version is beta 5 from 2009 and when I look in the newgrf repository there is a version from just last month. I take it scenarios stay linked to a specific version?
07:18<@planetmaker>maybe not, though
07:18<@Yexo>Bilge: yes
07:19<Bilge>Is there an easy way to upgrade the grfs for an out of date scenario?
07:19<@planetmaker>none to no easy and definitely not reliable
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07:19<@planetmaker>updating industry grfs is a no-no
07:19<Bilge>:(
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07:20<@Yexo>Bilge: it's impossible because newgrfs can contain so much logic
07:21<@Yexo>industry type 0 could be a coal mine in version1 and a steel mill in version 2 of the same grf
07:21<Bilge>So bananas is keeping track of all versions of a newgrf even though I can only browse the latest versions?
07:21<@Terkhen>yes, we should have a way for decoupling scenarios from newgrfs
07:21<@Terkhen>Bilge: yes
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>in theory, ECS grfs should be update-able
07:21<Bilge>So what if I want to target a specific version to download?
07:21<@Yexo>OpenTTD has no way of knowing the IDs have changed or how to link existing industries to the new ids
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>but we do not take warranty
07:21<@Yexo>Bilge: you can't easily
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07:21<@Yexo>if you have a scenario / savegame / server that uses that specific version you can still download it
07:21<@planetmaker>Bilge, the "latest" is what you need for new games.
07:22<@planetmaker>if ... ^^
07:22<Bilge>Yexo: sure but what if the scenario has no industries at present, it only has loaded the old newgrfs for the industries, isn't there some way I can swap out the old ones for the latest versions?
07:22<@planetmaker>nope
07:22<Bilge>That's not too good
07:22<@Yexo>enable the scenario developer setting, open grf window, remove old ones, add new ones
07:22<@planetmaker>hm, no industries. Then yes
07:22<@Yexo>^^ might cause problems ranging from graphics glitches to crashes of openttd
07:23<@Yexo>as soon as you do that consider that savegame unsupported
07:23<@Yexo>so try for a small game, but don't do it for a game you plan to play for a long time
07:23<@planetmaker>:-) that basically sums it up
07:23<Bilge>Is there any particular reason why industries would have different IDs? I mean would the developer have to have made that change manually or are they "compiled" in some way such that the compiler assigns the IDs... keeping in mind I have no idea about newgrf development
07:23<@Yexo>I've seen bug reports from people losing a game they'd played for 2 years (as in actual years, not game years) that way
07:24<@Yexo>the developer would have to change that
07:24<@planetmaker>and not only one of those reports...
07:24<Bilge>Are newgrfs compiled or just packaged?
07:24<@Yexo>my example above was a bit simplistic and not one that would happen normally, but it could be decided that the steel mill was no good industry and another one should be included
07:24<@Yexo>compiled
07:24<@planetmaker>Bilge, it needs manual change. But we've seen that. We've been there
07:24<@Yexo>you can decompile them just as easily though, grfcodec does both
07:25<Bilge>Is there any reason why ECS is about 10 newgrfs and FIRS is just conveniently in one?
07:26<Bilge>Like a technical limitation or something?
07:26<@planetmaker>a technical limitation of TTDPatch ;-)
07:26<Bilge>So its pandering to obsolete technology?
07:27<@planetmaker>depends on the meaning of 'obsolete' and whether you consider ttdpatch obsolete
07:27<@planetmaker>It can also be argued to be convenience. You can thus easily select different industry sectors
07:27<@Terkhen>for ECS it makes sense, you can select different combinations of industries easily
07:27<@planetmaker>like a farming scenario, you just add ecs base, town and farms
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07:30<Bilge>But there's "base" and "base2"
07:31<Bilge>I have no idea what this means and whether I'd need both. What happens if you forget to include base? Do you get a user friendly error message or does everything blow up
07:31<@Terkhen>Bilge: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=ECSVectors
07:31<@Yexo>not sure, I think the other ecs grfs will just disable them self if base is missing
07:33<Bilge>Does the newgrf format support a "depedency" system?
07:33<@planetmaker>no(t yet)
07:33<Bilge>It seems like a good thing to have
07:34<@planetmaker>not sure. Doesn't make things easier
07:34<@planetmaker>a newgrf can check for the presence or not-presence of other newgrfs already
07:34<@Terkhen>it can be supported already IMO
07:34<@planetmaker>which is usually enough info
07:34<@Terkhen>a NewGRF could disable itself if one of its dependencies is missing
07:34<@planetmaker>including the other grf's configuration parameters, that is, of course
07:35<Bilge>I'm just concerned with how the user is made aware about a grf disabling itself
07:35<@planetmaker>try it.
07:35<@Terkhen>a huge red warning appears
07:35<Bilge>If I think to the WoW addon dialog that was pretty good
07:35<Bilge>You can't enable an addon if its dependencies are missing and you're informed of exactly which ones are required
07:36<Bilge>Disabling a dependency immediately greys out mods that require it
07:36<@planetmaker>comparing something to WoW is like comparing it to building style from other planets to me ;-)
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07:41<Hirundo>It'd be possible to add a 'dependency list' via action14 ...
07:41<@planetmaker>yes
07:42<Hirundo>I don't know if there are any hard dependencies besides ECS, though
07:42<@planetmaker>dbset extensions
07:42<@planetmaker>there'll be ukrs add-ons maybe
07:42<Hirundo>In such cases disabling is fine, IMO
07:42<@planetmaker>or other newgrfs modifying other existing ones
07:42<@planetmaker>in the other cases IMHO, too
07:43<Hirundo>It's not like you really want the UKRS add-on, and consider the normal UKRS to be a side-effect
07:43<@planetmaker>of course not :-)
07:44<@planetmaker>I'm not yet convinced we need such system, though
07:44<@Terkhen>"disable myself if one of these grfids is not present", it would also be nice to have "disable myself if one of these grfids is present"
07:44<@Terkhen>but that can be done already
07:44<@Yexo>a better solution is imo to add a "test" stage to newgrf loading
07:44<@Yexo>that means all actionB errors can be detected while still in the main menu
07:45<Hirundo>Doesn't TTDP do the same already?
07:45<@Yexo>in ttdpatch you can't change the newgrfs inside the game
07:45<@planetmaker>it'd need a sand-box rather
07:45<@Yexo>so there is doesn't matter at all
07:45<Hirundo>I'm sure there is a 'test' grf loading stage defined somewhere
07:46<Bilge>planetmaker, you said you're part of the FIRS team, right? What's a "town industry"?
07:46<@planetmaker>sorry, I'm missing a bit context :-)
07:46<@Yexo>Hirundo: the idea is not original, it was discussed before
07:46<@planetmaker>I think it's like shops, bakeries and alike
07:46<Bilge>http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/economies
07:47<Bilge>On this page, in italics in every section it says After discussing numerous times, town industries won't be implemented as houses.
07:47<Bilge>But what the hell is a town industry
07:47<@planetmaker>yes, shops, petrol stations, bakeries,...
07:47<@Yexo>industries that only appear inside towns
07:47<Hirundo>from TTDP wki: Test: Called when user clicks to enable/disable file in the GRF Status Window to check which other files react to the change. Ignores all actions except 6, 7, 8, 9, B, D and E.
07:47<@planetmaker>those cargo accepting things which are found usually in towns
07:47<Hirundo>That's basically what you want, right?
07:48<@Yexo>yes, indeed
07:48<@Yexo>only in the main menu, not in-game
07:49<@planetmaker>maybe one could evaluate that on the fly after the active grf list is changed
07:49<@Terkhen>Bilge: banks and water towers in default ttd are town industries
07:54<Bilge>Oh I see
07:54<Bilge>I've never seen a water tower though
07:55<Bilge>Can you transport water or something?
07:55<@planetmaker>you never played tropical climate then ;-)
07:55<Bilge>Oh, no, I haven't :3
07:55<Bilge>I prefer green to brown
07:55<Bilge>I thought it was just visual, didn't realise the game was different
07:55*planetmaker wonders where there's brown in the tropical climate ;-)
07:56<Bilge>Sand
07:57<Bilge>It would be pretty cool if, when selecting a landscape style, the background changed to preview it
07:57<@planetmaker>NewGRFs can change that. So pretty pointless
07:58<@planetmaker>unless you already create a game
07:58<@planetmaker>which then would have no vehicles, no nothing... pretty boring
07:58<Bilge>newgrfs can change the stock four climate types?
07:59<@Yexo>planetmaker: I think Bilge means to have one opntitle.dat per climate
07:59<@Yexo>and newgrfs can't change the small image in the main menu
07:59<@planetmaker>Yexo, yes. That's what I replied to
07:59<@Yexo>simply because they are not loaded at that point in time
07:59<@planetmaker>The tiles can all be newgrf modified. Thus a preview will fail
07:59<@Yexo>ah, ok :)
07:59<@Yexo>Bilge: newgrfs can change every single sprite that is used in game
08:00<@planetmaker>even change an "a" for a "v" ;-)
08:00<Bilge>Well that may be the case but anyone who is screwing with newgrfs probably knows what they're doing, it's still useful for new players, and besides that it probably is still useful to be able to preview the grfs sets anyway
08:00<@planetmaker>Bilge, 90% don't ;-)
08:00<@Yexo>the majority doesn't know what they're doing :)
08:00<Bilge>lol OK
08:00<Bilge>But I can't really see a downside of having a "opntitle.dat" for each climate
08:00<Bilge>In spite of newgrfs
08:01<@Yexo>there isn't really a downside to that I think
08:01<@planetmaker>it'll be broken by design
08:01<@Yexo>somewhat bigger download size
08:01<@planetmaker>it won't preview what you get as soon as you have newgrfs.
08:01<Bilge>It's not a big file is it?
08:01<@Yexo>having to reload the main menu when you change the climate, which means the various subwindows are closed
08:01<@Yexo>not really, but then openttd isn't a big download either
08:03<@planetmaker>still, it'll give complaints immediately - promising something which is not there.
08:04<@Yexo>agreed
08:04<@planetmaker>the only way I see is to generate a random game as background and start AIs there
08:04<@Yexo>that'll cause even more problems
08:04<@planetmaker>in what way?
08:04<Bilge>Fixed is better because you're showcasing the majority of visual elements in one screen
08:04<@Yexo>I guess the FS#4631 / r22534 kind
08:05<@Yexo>AIs were never intended to run in the main menu
08:05<@Yexo>and it'll lead to such ugly examples in the main menu that it's not a good idea anyway
08:05<@planetmaker>depends on the AI ;-)
08:06<Bilge>I just created a town and the game named it "Little Slutford"
08:06<@planetmaker>see. That's what you get from messing with it! ;-)
08:06<Bilge>Population: 268 little sluts
08:07<@planetmaker>but yes... AIs in the main menu might not be a good idea anyway
08:09<@Terkhen>Bilge: please refrain from using using foul language
08:10<@Terkhen>s/using using/using/
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08:10<Bilge>planetmaker the graphics in FIRS look amazing, who made them?
08:11<@planetmaker>andythenorth
08:11<Bilge>What part do you work on?
08:11<@planetmaker>some small code fixes here and there, some compatibility stuff. And the build system
08:12<@Terkhen>Bilge: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/docs/attribution.txt <--- those are the few exceptions drawn by people other than andythenorth
08:12<@planetmaker>in other words: it's open source ;-)
08:12<@Terkhen>yes :P
08:13<Bilge>I think you need to avoid using colloqualisms in game dialogs though
08:13<Bilge>Like: Production "steps up" if two or more cargos are delivered...
08:13<Bilge>Should be: Production "increases"
08:14<@Yexo>Bilge: those are strings from the FIRS newgrf
08:14<@planetmaker>I won't judge that... andy is native speaker
08:14<Bilge>Yeah I was talking to planetmaker
08:14<Bilge>And so am I but I'm thinking of non-native speakers
08:14<Bilge>That kind of phrase should be avoided
08:15<Bilge>As should any idiom
08:15<Noldo>what?
08:15<@Yexo>Bilge: you can see all strings in FIRS here: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/sprites/nfo/lang/7F_any.pnfo
08:15<@planetmaker>Bilge, we happily accept suggestions for improvement. Best grab that file and correct it where needed
08:16<@Yexo>if you find more examples taht should be changed, I recommend you open a ticket here: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs
08:16<@planetmaker>and post it then in the forum's FIRS thread or at the FIRS bug tracker at http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/issues
08:16<@Yexo>that way it can be discussed with andy more easily and it won't be forgotten
08:16<@planetmaker>^ yup :-)
08:20<@planetmaker>in case of doubt: the main primary language is British English. A separate American English translation can be selected / provided for cases where it matters
08:21<Bilge>I am British but idioms shouldn't be used in any language for game text
08:21<Bilge>This isn't too good either: "This industry might close unless any cargo is delivered within"
08:21<@planetmaker>that's pretty clear IMHO
08:21<Bilge>It's not English
08:21<Bilge>Should be: "This industry may close if no cargo is delivered within"
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08:22<@planetmaker>but as said... :-) please provide a revised English language file with your corrections
08:22<Bilge>I don't know how to do that
08:22<@planetmaker>grab the file Yexo linked and edit it...
08:22<@Yexo>download the file, edit in any text editor, save it, upload it to the issue tracker
08:23<Bilge>It's the uploading part I don't get
08:23<@Yexo>go https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/issues/new
08:23<@planetmaker>you'll need to register to the BugTracker
08:24<@Yexo>there is a "files" field, you can upload your file there
08:24<@planetmaker>Then you can open issues with the link as given ^
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08:28<Bilge>So it seems that FIRS gives me lots of new industries and cargos and absolutely no way of transporting any of them anywhere
08:28<@planetmaker>correct
08:28<Bilge>Amazing
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08:29<@planetmaker>you necessarily need vehicle newgrfs, if you want to be able to transport all those cargos
08:29<@Terkhen>if FIRS gave you its own vehicles, you would be limited to only those vehicles
08:29<@planetmaker>nearly any will do, but you need one ;-)
08:29<@Terkhen>if you don't want many changes on vehicles try opengfx+ trains and opengfx+ road vehicles
08:29<@Terkhen>bbl
08:30<@planetmaker>ships-> FISH. RV, trains: as terkh3n just said. aircraft: probably av8, but others might work, too
08:30<@planetmaker>enjoy, Terkhen
08:34<Bilge>This is what I mean about having a dependency system
08:34<@planetmaker>Bilge, but it doesn't depend on any particular vehicle set
08:35<Bilge>If you try to start a game with just FIRS it should say: hang on you don't have any vehicles
08:35<Bilge>On some level they have to be designed to work with each other
08:35<@planetmaker>but how do you test for *something* which you don't know how it looks like?
08:35<Bilge>By having an interface
08:36<Bilge>newgrfs should have a classification
08:36<Bilge>So you can create a cargos newgrf
08:36<@planetmaker>that's FIRS
08:36<@planetmaker>industries and cargos usually go hand in hand
08:36<Bilge>And that newgrf says, I need a grf for ships, planes and aircraft
08:36<@planetmaker>though in principle it can be split. But when you define an industry you need to be sure that those cargos are there
08:36<Bilge>And then it won't start the game until you load a grf that provides each of those interfaces
08:37<@planetmaker>that doesn't suffice. It needs to tell "I need cargos X,Y,Z,..."
08:37<Bilge>That would be a lot better yes
08:37<@Yexo>why should openttd forbid me to load a game without planes if I don't want to play with planes at all?
08:37<Bilge>It doesn't have to be a hard limit
08:37<Bilge>An "are you sure" dialog would suffice
08:38<@Yexo>nobody reads those, or they complain anyway after reading
08:38<@Yexo>that kind of dialog is just annoying and hardly helpful
08:38<Bilge>I would say that the use case for the majority of the time is that a grf should enforce some kind of integrity with regards to what other grfs it is coexisting with
08:38<@planetmaker>still, it's a valid point to notify the user that he's about to start a game where there are certain cargos without means to transport via X or Y
08:39<@planetmaker>need not be a pop-up window but a part of the config window could in principle do, too
08:39<@Yexo>again the problem with the way newgrfs are currently loaded: that information is not available until _after_ the game has been generated
08:39<Bilge>It would be very good if you actually got a dialog that said exactly what was expected but missing. Like, the following cargos have no transports defined: x y z
08:39<@planetmaker>Bilge, that'd be VERY lengthy in this case ;-)
08:39<Bilge>Further, a complex grf like FIRS should also recommend to the user other grfs that it is compatible with
08:40<@Yexo>ok, now say there is a maglev wagon available to transport food. That maglev wagon is the only wagon that is able to transport food, but it's only available from 2030. Should OpenTTD warn about that or not?
08:40<@planetmaker>:-)
08:40<Bilge>How am I to know what grfs are out there that provide the missing pieces? Right now I'm only just discovering that there are missing pieces
08:40<@planetmaker>Bilge, read FIRS' readme
08:40<@Yexo>you could read the readme.txt file provided with firs?
08:41<Bilge>I don't know where to see that, I just used the content downloader in gam
08:41<@Yexo>that is a very valid problem
08:41<@planetmaker>yep :-(
08:41<@Yexo>and somebody was working on adding a grf reader to the game
08:41<Bilge>I should become product manager for OpenTTD :)
08:42<@planetmaker>oh, definitely not. There are always people who want to manage things
08:42<Bilge>There's so much good stuff in OpenTTD but there's so much more you can do with it to make it more accessible and enjoyable for more players
08:42<@planetmaker>But you could certainly contribute a lot :-)
08:43<@planetmaker>The problem mostly is not so much the knowledge of "what would be nice" or even "what is needed to improve X" - but rather someone actually implementing that
08:43<@planetmaker>we know about the missing access to readmes. We know that scenarios are a PITA wrt re-configuring to other newgrfs.... but it simply has not yet been solved
08:44<@planetmaker>I also know that the game menu in general and the arrangement of settings could need an overhaul. Mostly time disallowed me to work on it.
08:45<George>Yexo: not sure, I think the other ecs grfs will just disable them self if base is missing <- no. they can run alone
08:45<@planetmaker>Same with other things mentioned and many more. It needs people really working on it
08:45<@planetmaker>Doing the hard work. Not the 'management'
08:45<@Yexo>George: ok, good to know :)
08:46<George>Bilge: Is there any reason why ECS is about 10 newgrfs and FIRS is just conveniently in one?<- TTDP has a limit -32K lines per GRF. ECS Mashinery vector and ECS Agricultural vector are at this limit
08:46<George>do not know if OTTDP supports more than 64K lines
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08:47<@planetmaker>it's good to know though where things can be improved. And all your observations are valid ones afaik, especially wrt user interface
08:47<@Yexo>afaik there is no hardcoded limit, but I'm not sure if the grf spec supports it
08:47<@Yexo>I think it does though
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08:47<@planetmaker>but it's a lengthy process to really write that. And to write it such that all corner cases are covered and without breaking backward compatibility too hard
08:48<George>Bilge: But there's "base" and "base2" <- they are not a must. So for farming scenario you'll need Town + Agricultural
08:49<@planetmaker>George, that's actually quite confusing naming
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08:49<@planetmaker>from the names I'd expect to need base + <something>
08:50<George>Eddi|zuHause: in theory, ECS grfs should be update-able <- they should. Let me know if not. When big change happens, GRFID is changed. The vector becomes version II (Basic, Chemical)
08:50<@planetmaker>btw, other topic: I think gimp can be made to work with the layer names. I shall look at that when I find some time. But probably not before the end of the week really
08:52<@Yexo>planetmaker: I'm trying now how hard it is to write a pcx decoder for PIL
08:52<@Yexo>ehm, XCF, not PCX
08:53<Bilge>I find it werid that grfs have a "line" limit since I was told grfs are compiled in which case there is no concept of "lines"
08:53<@Yexo>not really, but a grf is divided in "sprites"
08:53<@Yexo>there are real sprites (the actual graphics) and pseudo sprites (the one containing data and logic)
08:54<@Yexo>each "sprite" is also called a "line" (to avoid confusion with "real sprites")
08:54<Bilge>planetmaker: I appreciate what you're saying, and I am a developer by profession, but C is not my strong suit. That said, from the discussion we had just in the past few hours it seems pretty clear to me that we have discussed some things that haven't been thought about in any kind of detail yet
08:55<@Yexo>"pseudo sprites" are also called "actions"
08:55<@Yexo>Bilge: that's true, and a detailed plan on how something could work is always welcome
08:55<@planetmaker>he, nice, Yexo :-)
08:56<@Yexo>however an open source project works inherently different from a company
08:56<Bilge>Because it's easy to say, "a dependency system would be nice" but it takes a lot of work to go through and turn that into a detailed plan on how a programmer could actually go away and implement that idea
08:56<@Yexo>you can't tell anyone "you have to code that"
08:56<@Terkhen>most of the things discussed today have also been discussed in the past, but as Yexo mentions a detailed design and plan is needed
08:57<@Yexo>Bilge: if you want to volunteer to create such a detailed plan I can only say: go right ahead :)
08:57<@planetmaker>A good place might be our wiki somewhere
08:57<@Yexo>the wiki (wiki.openttd.org) could be a good place to write it, that way it's possible for other to collaborate when that's needed
08:57<Bilge>I thought my knowledge of the grf format and interface is far too lacking for me to do that right now
08:57<Bilge>think*
08:57<@planetmaker>the development pages would be a suitable place
08:58<@planetmaker>you might not want to start with that ;-)
08:59<@Terkhen>regarding the scenario issue, there are plans to expand heightmaps with more info until they can define a "generic" scenario that does not depend on anything else
08:59<@Terkhen>but no detailed format definition (unless Alberth has something decided already)
09:03<@planetmaker>and indeed, any such change must be interesting enough so that *someone* wants to take it on ;-)
09:04<@Terkhen>hmm... the newgrf debug gui code is quite complicated :P
09:05<@planetmaker>you mean the debug windows?
09:05<@planetmaker>which show the variables?
09:05<@Terkhen>yes
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>"in berlin, one third of all juristic actions are for 'using public transport without ticket' ['Schwarzfahren']"
09:06<@Terkhen>it is very powerful too
09:06<@planetmaker>:-)
09:06<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, sounds like pointless waste of public money
09:07<@Terkhen>one of my friends had to pay a fine for that when we were at berlin a few years ago :P
09:07<@planetmaker>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_transport_in_Hasselt
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09:11<Eddi|zuHause>i can imagine that the issue has gone worse since all the public transport blackouts, in order to protest.
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>those are the kind of people who won't just pay the 40€
09:11<@planetmaker>must be an incredible amount
09:12<@Belugas>hello
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>while at the topic: how does "schwarzfahren" translate to other languages?
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>or is that a purely german issue ;)
09:20<@planetmaker>fair-dodge?
09:20<@Yexo>"zwartrijden" in dutch
09:20<@planetmaker>*fare-dodge
09:22<@Yexo>"schwarzfahren" in google translate: "go black" :p
09:22<@Yexo>the dutch one results in "black car"
09:23<@planetmaker>:-P sounds wrong either case
09:24<@Terkhen>:D
09:24<@Yexo>the dutch one results in "black car"
09:24<Bilge>planetmaker: does FIRS modify the value of passenger cargo because in a standard TTD game I can make millions just using bus and plane population transport; ignoring industry altogether
09:25<Bilge>I still haven't found any incentive to make use of industry besides for the fun of it
09:26<@Yexo>you can also argue the other way around
09:26<@Yexo>it's perfectly possible to make a lot of profit using industries, ignoring passengers altogether
09:26<Bilge>No my point is that industry is less profitable
09:26<@Yexo>that depends on city size and your playing style
09:26<@planetmaker>dunno how transport rates compare. I never care about them
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09:26<Bilge>Particularly early game, when trains are slow and expensive
09:27<@planetmaker>and towns tiny and scarce ;-)
09:27<@Yexo>without any newgrfs planes are more profitable than other transport tyeps, but that isn't limited to passengers
09:27<Bilge>I didn't think there were planes for goods
09:28<@Yexo>can't you refit them?
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09:31<@Terkhen>default vehicles are refittable to goods and valuables IIRC
09:32<@Terkhen>yes, and mail too
09:32*planetmaker wants to fly in coal by jumbo jet.
09:32<@planetmaker>it's even realistic somewhat... Berlin air lift
09:34<@Terkhen>opengfx+ aircrafts? :P
09:34<@planetmaker>:-) Might be pretty straight forward. Nothing really needed except refits
09:34<@Terkhen>and a setting: "refit to cargos that don't make sense"
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>if you could simulate soviets blocking all road/rail/water entrances to the city :p
09:34<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, I can
09:35<@planetmaker>just build a line of communication towers
09:35<@planetmaker>the "iron curtain"
09:35<@Terkhen>there was a scenario like that
09:35<@planetmaker>at sea level hight
09:35<@planetmaker>yep, I know ;-)
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but that does not cut existing rail lines
09:35<@Terkhen>it is awesome how they managed to synchronize that huge water clock :P
09:36<@planetmaker>:-) In the Sony centre?
09:36<@Terkhen>hmm... I'm talking about the scenario :P
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: did they hack that one yet? :p
09:36<@planetmaker>Hm... then I don'T quite know.
09:36<@planetmaker>no idea, probably, Eddi|zuHause ;-)
09:37<@Terkhen>I found the map a few years ago in the wiki, let me check if it is still there
09:38<@planetmaker>I'm not sure I remember that... you seem to recall another one than I...
09:40<@Terkhen>http://wiki.openttd.org/Scenario_talk:German_Reunification <--- meh
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09:40<@planetmaker>:-(
09:41<@Yexo>Terkhen: I remove a bunch of scenarios from the wiki some time ago.
09:41<@Yexo>removed all those whose links didn't work anymore
09:41<@Terkhen>I see :(
09:41<@Terkhen>I wonder why they did not upload it to the forums or something
09:42<@Terkhen>planetmaker: it had a line of lighthouses connected to a long line of land at water height that was being flooded slowly
09:42<@Terkhen>when the right date was reached, water reached the lighthouses and started destroying them
09:43<@planetmaker>wow. That sounds like awesome timing
09:43<@Terkhen>you still had both parts separated by water, but it was great :P
09:43<@Yexo>hmm, I remember that scenario
09:43<@planetmaker>I don't :-(
09:44<@Terkhen>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=569210#p569210 <--- there are references to it on the forums, but they link to the same wiki page
09:45<@Terkhen>another piece of content that falls into oblivion because of external storage, I guess
09:46<@planetmaker>:-(
09:47<@planetmaker>http://forum.studio-seo.org/obschie-voprosy-po-openttd-general-openttd/4-scenarii-dlya-openttd-openttd-scenario-2.html
09:47<@planetmaker>^ probably
09:48<@Terkhen>sounds likely
09:48<@planetmaker>hm.. broken savegame
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09:49<@Terkhen>why do they force you to register? meh
09:49<@planetmaker>he, I tried to load the webpage then obviously :-P
09:49<@planetmaker>which of course is a broken scenario ;-)
09:50<@Terkhen>the forum itself looks broken
09:51<@Terkhen>"home" is broken
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>the only external scenario i ever tried was the USA map
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>IMHO it heavily suffers from "flatness"
09:52<@planetmaker>many scenarios based on topography do
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>but rivers are great
09:52<@Terkhen>they are a pain to place :P
09:53<@Terkhen>I got bored of it after just two rivers
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: since the whole map is hand-drawn, i don't think the rivers really make a significant part of that :p
09:53<@Terkhen>wow
09:54<@Terkhen>the link in that forum is broken even if you register
09:54<@Terkhen>s/register/use bugmenot/ :P
09:55<@planetmaker>yes :S
09:56<@Terkhen>heh, while googling I got redirected to an old archive of this channel, it is a fun discussion :P
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>old discussions are often fun ;)
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>try to read logs from exactly 1 year ago ;)
09:57<@Terkhen>let's see
09:58<@Terkhen>but I was here already one year ago, this one is like reading old story for me :P
09:58<@Terkhen>http://thegrebs.com/irc/openttd/2008/01/21
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>didn't Gonozal_VIII make one of those IN-attempts?
10:01<@Yexo>yes
10:01<@Terkhen>IN? what's that?
10:02<@planetmaker>integrated nightly
10:02<@Yexo>patchpack
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>same as a patchpack ;)
10:02<@planetmaker>i.e. a nightly patchpack
10:02<@Terkhen>ah :P
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>the name "NukeBuster" is very close to "NekoMaster", makes for bad associations...
10:05<@Terkhen>wow, this channel really loved to write back then :P
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>there were always periods of more talk, and others of less talk
10:07<@planetmaker>it's not like this has been a silent day...
10:07<@Terkhen>:P
10:07<@Yexo>more surprising: most of the talk today has actually been about openttd ;)
10:07<@planetmaker>:-)
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>that is indeed rare :p
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10:08<Eddi|zuHause>and they didn't pick up on my attempts of derailing the topic ;)
10:09<@planetmaker>hm... I like those scenarios which have a CC-ND license :-P
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>http://thegrebs.com/irc/openttd/2008/01/21#08:56 "<fjb> I know about one grf author that will really start to hate you..." <-- what a true prediciton ;)
10:09<@planetmaker>You may look at it, but not play ;-)
10:09<@Yexo>you can play, but not upload screenshots / savegames :)
10:10<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: that is the fun discussion I was mentioning :P
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10:10<fjb>I hate it when my prediction become true.
10:11<@Terkhen>:D
10:13<@planetmaker>he...
10:13<@planetmaker>I also wished you were wrong. Not generally, but here ;-)
10:14*fjb doesn't mind.
10:16<@Terkhen>anyways, I can't find the scenario so you will have to believe me about what it did :P
10:16<@planetmaker>unfair!
10:16<@planetmaker>;-)
10:20<Eddi|zuHause><ln-> so, still missing: mecklenburg-vorpommern, saarland, sachsen, berlin, hull. <-- has any of that been checked yet? :p
10:22<Bilge>When did "refitting" become part of the game? I know the original never had it
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>iirc TTD already had ship refitting, TT(O) didn't
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>or at least was one of the very first TTDPatch ammendments
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10:26<Bilge>I never heard of the deluxe version, I just owned the original. Wikipedia doesn't even say when the delux version was released, just that it was "shortly afterward"
10:27<Bilge>Does anyone know when TTD was released?
10:27<@planetmaker>1994?
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>1994 original, 1995 world editor, 1996 deluxe
10:27<@planetmaker>ok :-)
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>(iirc)
10:27<Bilge>Oh wait it does say at the top heh
10:27<Bilge>1995 for TTD
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>i never heard of deluxe either
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>until like 2001-ish
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>when i got internet
10:28<Bilge>Aye same heh
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>and played something like TTDPatch 1.6/1.7
10:28<Bilge>I think even if I had seen it I would have just dismissed it as rebranding
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>alone for the one-way-signals it would have been worth purchasing
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10:36<Bilge>Not for me
10:36<Bilge>I still haven't used them even now
10:37<Bilge>As I understand they're only useful for closed circuit tracks but because I was bought up on the orignal games I never think about building that way
10:37<Bilge>Besides I still feel like tracks like that have very little application in most circumstances
10:37<@planetmaker>you could IMHO not be more wrong ;-)
10:38*Terkhen used to think that way too :P
10:38<@planetmaker>two-way block signals are the only signal type I NEVER build
10:38<@planetmaker>the normal two - way block signals
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>they have very narrow use cases
10:38<@planetmaker>_very_ narrow :-)
10:39*Terkhen would love a signal GUI with one way block signals and path signals only
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>sharing a one-track-station between several otherwise independent lines with one train each
10:39<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, but there a path signal is IMHO more appropriate
10:39<@planetmaker>or at least equally feasible
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>in _all_ "real" cases, path signals are more or equally appropriate
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>only weird "priority" constructs actually need block signals
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't used block signals in ages
10:40<@planetmaker>:-)
10:40<@planetmaker>I use them on normal tracks
10:41<@planetmaker>and, of course, for priority lines
10:41<@Terkhen>why wasn't recommended to build path signals on normal tracks?
10:41<@planetmaker>slow(er)
10:41<@Terkhen>performance?
10:41<@planetmaker>not that. But a train might stop, to "think" about reservation
10:41<@planetmaker>that's only done every 20(?) ticks by default
10:42<@planetmaker>or you change that to 1 tick - then it impacts performance slightly afair
10:42<@Terkhen>oh, ok
10:42<@planetmaker>we change it on our servers to one tick ;-)
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10:42<@planetmaker>the !setdef command takes care of that
10:42<Bilge>I use these newfangled "path" signals exclusively. I never use block signals. But I still don't create closed circuits
10:43<@planetmaker>nor do you use double-tracked routes, eh?
10:43<Bilge>Don't know what that means
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10:47<@planetmaker>for example: one track going North, the other South
10:47<@planetmaker>connecting the same stations basically, in parallel
10:47<@planetmaker>each connecting to every station track
10:48<@planetmaker>but (mostly) allowing only uni-directional traffic (for higher train density)
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10:52<Bilge>If there's two trains on a dual line then that sounds inefficient to me
10:53<Bilge>I'd probably use a single platform and either have a partially parallel section so they can bypass each other or a mandatory stop at the depot
10:53<Bilge>Depending on how long it takes to load up
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10:56<@planetmaker>you never had then a station with more than 100 trains visiting it ;-)
10:56<Bilge>Do you kno why, even though a scenario downloaded AV8 1.81, I'm offered 1.501 as an "upgrade"
10:57<@planetmaker>different ids?
10:57<@Yexo>the av8 addon has 1.501 as dependency IIRC
10:57<@planetmaker>might be
10:58<Bilge>I don't think so, I played with 1.81 by itself
10:58<Bilge>But I'm seeing both in the list and 1.501 gets checked when I click "select upgrades"
10:59<@planetmaker>because 1.3x + 1.5x have a different ID than 1.8x?
11:00<Bilge>I can't seem to see that
11:01<Bilge>What is the DOS/Windows palette thing and does it matter if some default to DOS while other Windows (mixing them)?
11:01<@planetmaker>but they are 44440A01 vs 44440A03
11:02<Bilge>Shouldn't they have the same ID if they're the same mod?
11:02<@planetmaker>"don't change defaults" is in 99% a good idea
11:02<Bilge>Just different versions of the same MOD I mean
11:02<@Yexo>planetmaker: huh? I have multiple versions of av8, but all of them are 44440A01
11:02<@Yexo>1.331, 1.501, 1.7 and 1.81
11:02<@planetmaker>Yexo, but the av8 extra aircraft have another ID
11:02<Bilge>Not talking about the extra
11:02<@planetmaker>which is 44440A03
11:03<Bilge>I have duplicate of the base back
11:04<@planetmaker>?
11:06<@planetmaker>I have three different base sets to choose from. But definitely not in the newgrf window
11:06<Bilge>back = pack
11:07<@planetmaker>yes
11:07<Bilge>Yexo: for refittable vehicles would it be possible in the purcahse window to include the refit cost? This instead of having to buy it first
11:07<@planetmaker>I understood that... But still not the sense of your statement.
11:07<Bilge>Sometimes the refit costs as much as the original vehicle. OpenGFX Road Vehicles the refit is free
11:07<@planetmaker>Bilge, not possible
11:07<Bilge>Knowing the refit cost up front would be a lot better
11:08<@planetmaker>the newgrf decides on the refit costs
11:08<@Terkhen>hmm... should it be? I never worried about refit cost in OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles
11:08<Bilge>The refit is free in that mod
11:08<@planetmaker>Terkhen, I decided that "free" is as justified as "expensive". I chose free
11:08<Bilge>But in the base game refits are expensive
11:08<@planetmaker>or nearly free
11:09<@planetmaker>As to me it made no sense to pay big $$$ when transporting ore instead of coal in the same wagon
11:09<Bilge>I remember buying a diesel train and refitting it from passenger to something else and it costing the same as the train in the first place
11:09<@planetmaker>Bilge, in any case: bother the newgrf authors
11:09<@planetmaker>it's their choice
11:09<Bilge>They can set the cost but that's not the point, I just want whatever the cost is displayed in the purcahse window
11:11<@planetmaker>not feasible
11:11<@Terkhen>Bilge: IIRC the problem is that the refit cost can depend on vehicle values that do not exist until the vehicle is actually bought
11:11<@Terkhen>therefore, with some NewGRFs you would get huge differences between what is displayed on the buy window and the real cost
11:11<@planetmaker>as it can be "1000$ on February 29, 750 in May, 100 all other days, except Fridays where it's 259, but Friday 13 is 100000 and no refit possible in 1974 or after 2019
11:11<@Terkhen>that too :P
11:12<@Yexo>Bilge: the newgrf decides the price, but the newgrf can also display it in the purchase window
11:12<@planetmaker>oh, and that was only valid when it carries currently coal. All different when it currently carries ore
11:13<@planetmaker>a good vehicle newgrf author indeed could display that there. I wonder if *any* newgrf does that
11:13*planetmaker is an evil newgrf author
11:13<@Terkhen>oh, that's true
11:13<@Terkhen>NewGRFs can display additional stuff there :P
11:13<Bilge>Refit is part of the game though. What if there are no newgrfs installed? I still want to see the refit price
11:13<@planetmaker>yeah... VEH_CB_TEXT_PURCHASE_SCREEN
11:14<@planetmaker>bad luck ;-)
11:14<Bilge>Terkhen: even if that's true you can still display "Estimated refit cost"
11:15<@planetmaker>a newgrf author can know it exactly - in principle
11:15<@Terkhen>why should we show information that we know can be false? you underestimate how confused users would get about it
11:15<@planetmaker>^
11:16<Bilge>When you hold shift to test building it also declares "estimated cost" because it knows things can change between when you did the test and actually build the road
11:16<Bilge>That doesn't mean the feature was omitted because you assume users are stupid
11:16<@Yexo>but at that time the vehicle is already build
11:17<@Yexo>which is different, because with an already build vehicle openttd can ask the newgrf about the refit cost
11:17<@Yexo>as long as there is no vehicle I'd have to create one, get the refit cost, and delete it
11:17<@Yexo>which is possible, but a lot more work
11:17<@Terkhen>it's not a matter of users being stupid or not, it's a matter of users assuming that the info shown to them is correct when it is actually wrong
11:18<Bilge>"Estimated" is used to dispel that instinct to assume
11:18<@planetmaker>an estimation which can be off by orders of magnitude?
11:18<@Terkhen>for example: "Estimated refit cost: 0"
11:18<@Terkhen>and later the real refit cost is 100.000$
11:18<@planetmaker>we could always use that then or the other ;-)
11:19<@planetmaker>it's an estimate
11:19<@planetmaker>easy fix actually ;-)
11:19<@Terkhen>the best solution IMO is to ask NewGRF authors to display an estimate
11:19<@planetmaker>STR_REFIT_ESTIMATE: Estimated refit cost: 0 ;-)
11:19<Bilge>It isn't because it's inconsistent and still doesn't add the information to the base game
11:20<@planetmaker>consider base game as "easy". But everything added _also_ has to hold for newgrfs
11:21<@Terkhen>that's the problem Bilge, because of how callbacks are handled for real vehicles and vehicles in the buy menu, this is already inconsistent
11:21<@Terkhen>so you are going to get inconsistent solutions
11:24<Bilge>planetmaker: FIRS says it is compatible with eGRVTS v1.0, which is exactly the version I am using, but it does not provide any vehicles for transporting alcohol
11:24<@planetmaker>that's unfortunately correct. FIRS readme is older than its alcohol cargo ;-)
11:25<@planetmaker>please open a ticket or I'll forget...
11:25<Bilge>I don't know how to do that
11:26<@planetmaker>same way as translation / language fixes...
11:26<Bilge>What would you do about it? Remove it from the readme?
11:26<Bilge>Or fix eGRVTS?
11:26<@planetmaker>"all excep alcohol". I can't fix egrvts. It's not mine
11:27<Bilge>If it's abandoned can't we fork and fix it?
11:27<@planetmaker>the license afaik allows it. yes
11:27<@planetmaker>the author is still around, though. But very busy atm
11:27<@Terkhen>it's not abandoned though, Zephyris still plans to update it some day
11:28<@planetmaker>egrvts needs also some other fixes. Like adoption to realistic acceleration
11:28<@Terkhen>yes :(
11:29<@planetmaker>I wonder in what shape the egrvts source is...
11:29<@planetmaker>and whether we should sweet talk Zephyris to just upload it to the DevZone
11:29<@planetmaker>Whether he'd have time for that
11:29<@planetmaker>then maybe a 1.4 could be made. maybe
11:29<@planetmaker>but I fear the answer to "how does the source look like?"
11:30<@Terkhen>why?
11:30<@planetmaker>do you know how it looks?
11:30<@Terkhen>it's NFO, you can't make it much worse than it is :D
11:30<@Terkhen>it already is*
11:30<@planetmaker>:-D
11:30<@planetmaker>there's nfo, there's de-compiled nfo and there's nfo ;-)
11:30<@Terkhen>it can't be worse than uncommented, long lines right?
11:30<@planetmaker>that's right
11:30-!-Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:30<@planetmaker>And I know the pain I went through with TTRS
11:30<@planetmaker>nothing I fancy doing really
11:31<Ammler>convert to nml :-P
11:31<@planetmaker>tralallala :-)
11:31<@Terkhen>I tried to understand 2cctrainset code myself and I failed, and it is commented
11:31<@planetmaker>he, yes
11:31<@planetmaker>but that's easier than uncommented
11:31<@planetmaker>2ccTS has not exactly an easy-to-understand code base anyway
11:32<@Terkhen>yes
11:32<Ammler>isn't there a nfo-nml converter for firs?
11:32<@planetmaker>and if it's only because of its size
11:32<@Terkhen>Ammler: it is still not finished, action14 and other things are missing
11:32*planetmaker looks under the desk for Yexo.
11:32<@planetmaker>He must be hiding *somewhere* :-P
11:32<@Terkhen>but the converted version compiles and can be run :)
11:33<@Terkhen>it will disable itself because something is missing, though
11:33<@Terkhen>but the resulting code is... not nice
11:33*Yexo looks for a better place to hide
11:33<@Terkhen>nicer than expected, but still chaos :P
11:33<@planetmaker>well... I guess there's only so much one can do with a de-compiler
11:34<@Terkhen>I'm willing to translate the converted code to proper NML for FIRS, but it is not something I fancy doing for many other sets :)
11:34<@planetmaker>and there are light years between nfo and nml code for me ;-)
11:34<@Terkhen>when with proper I mean variables with meaningful names and so on
11:34<@planetmaker>yep, sure
11:34<@Terkhen>templates, organized code...
11:34<@Yexo>var[x] to the correct name can be done automatically
11:34<@planetmaker>that's darn hard work
11:35*Terkhen guesses that after the conversion he will never forget sed syntax again
11:35<@planetmaker>haha :-)
11:35<@planetmaker>sed -i.bak "s/blubber/fancy/g"
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11:35<@Yexo>planetmaker: I've given up on trying to implement a xcf decoder for PIL for now
11:36<@Yexo>the documentation is missing a lot of information, and I'm pretty sure it can't be done in pure python, it'll need some c code
11:36<@planetmaker>where is the exact problem? - oh :S
11:36<Ammler>what is the issue there with using gimp console?
11:36<@Yexo>which makes distributing / testing harder
11:36<@planetmaker>Ammler, the "size" of gimp as tool
11:36<@planetmaker>and we'd have python anyway as dep for all our repos
11:37<@planetmaker>So it'd be more light-weight
11:37<@Yexo>and if pil supported those files, nml could too :)
11:37<@planetmaker>:-)
11:37<Ammler>well, gimp is a kind of require anyway
11:37<@planetmaker>how?
11:37<@Yexo>Ammler: only for artists, not for coders
11:37<Ammler>maybe you can do the same with photoshop?
11:38<@planetmaker>Ammler, my script supports photoshop
11:38<Ammler>Yexo: which coder doesn't need a graphics tool?
11:38<@planetmaker>gimp reads it just fine
11:38<@Yexo>Ammler: myself :)
11:38<@planetmaker>:-P
11:38<Rubidium>maybe do it the same way as OpenTTD does openttd.grf?
11:38<Ammler>planetmaker: I meant to use photoshop instead gimp
11:38<@planetmaker>Rubidium, but there everything is as png, right?
11:39<@planetmaker>I don't see openttd.grf using any layered graphics file anywhere
11:39<Ammler>planetmaker: I guess, he meant, add the png to the repo and use gimp if available
11:39<Rubidium>well... yes, but I mean openttd.grf itself, not the source for openttd.grf
11:39<@planetmaker>that's what we do use currently
11:39<@Terkhen>yes, I have been thinking about adding pngs to the repo too
11:39<@Terkhen>planetmaker: not in ogfx-rv right now :P
11:39<@planetmaker>ho, ogfx+rv doesn't, ok :-)
11:39<Rubidium>i.e. recompile it when the tool for doing that is available
11:39<Rubidium>otherwise just keep the precompiled binary
11:40<Rubidium>it'll somewhat mess up the repository though
11:40<@planetmaker>ah... you mean... only "re-gimp" if gimp is there? yes
11:40<@Terkhen>and also, some way of compiling without using gimp, even if gimp is present
11:40<@planetmaker>but that means either all png anyway or the grf. Both is... not so nice
11:40<@Terkhen>convert from xcf to png would be a special target
11:40<@Terkhen>and by default, use pngs
11:40<@planetmaker>iirc it is currently
11:41<@planetmaker>it works currently like xcf newer than png? then re-gimp the png
11:41<@planetmaker>that check just needs making dependent on the availability of gimp
11:41<@Terkhen>oh, nice, that's enough IMO
11:41<@Terkhen>I'll readd the pngs to the repo then
11:41<@planetmaker>obviously xcf is always newer than no png file
11:42<@planetmaker>Terkhen, sure you want that?
11:42<Ammler>Terkhen: just call those different as the other pngs
11:42<@Terkhen>planetmaker: right now it takes way too long to compile
11:42<@Terkhen>Ammler: what do you mean?
11:42<@planetmaker>Let's say... please don't be too quick with it.
11:42<Ammler>something like .gimp.png
11:42<@planetmaker>Terkhen, does it always take that long?
11:42<@Terkhen>Ammler: there are no "other" pngs on ogfx-rv, everything can be generated from xcf
11:43<@planetmaker>even when you didn't touch the xcf?
11:43<@Terkhen>and IIRC they are already being called .gimp.png
11:43<@Terkhen>planetmaker: I don't remember
11:43<@planetmaker>yep, iirc, too
11:43<Ammler>Terkhen: then it might not matter :-P
11:43<@Terkhen>well, .gimp.png is still better for consistency, if other ogfx projects start using the same scheme
11:43<@planetmaker>Terkhen, it *should* - whether it does or not - only re-create the png if the xcf is newer. thus compilation only should take longer if the pngs are re-written
11:44<@Terkhen>so only the first time
11:44<@Terkhen>?
11:44<@planetmaker>that's how it should be.
11:44<@Terkhen>ok :)
11:44<@planetmaker>and for every time changing graphics ;-)
11:45<@planetmaker>yes... seemed to work for me.
11:45<@planetmaker>make just build the nml. after clean it builds the png
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11:46<@planetmaker>hm, good. It also works with gimp 2.4 :-)
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11:48<@planetmaker>but indeed takes *quite* some time
11:50<hgnmu128>I have a doubt. The GRVTS 32bpp package is just a tar with the *_z?.png etc files inside it, where is the code to import them into the game located? In the GRF?
11:51<@Yexo>nowhere
11:52<@Yexo>when openttd has to read real sprite with number x from the grf, it'll try to load "grfname/x_z?.png" first
11:52<@Yexo>only if that fails it'll load the sprite from the grf
11:52<hgnmu128>And it happens only if blitter is set?
11:52<@Yexo>yes, see http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/raw-file/tip/docs/32bpp.txt
11:53<@planetmaker>a blitter is always set - except on most dedicated servers ;-)
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11:55<hgnmu128>But I have GRVTS.grf where GRFname string is "GRVTSv1.4" but the tar name is "GRVTSv1.4c.tar". So it searches for grfname*/X_zY.png?
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11:57*hgnmu128 is waiting, fingers crossed. ;)
11:59<hgnmu128>Yexo, planetmaker, anyone?
11:59<@Yexo>the tar name doesn't matter, the name of the directory inside the tar does
12:00<@Yexo>the _zY part is not part of OpenTTD, only of the extra zoom levels patch
12:00<@Yexo>the grf name string doesn't matter, the filename of the grf matters
12:00<hgnmu128>The (only) directory inside the tar is "sprites".
12:01<@Yexo>and inside the sprites directory?
12:01<hgnmu128>I get it.
12:02<hgnmu128>Thanks.
12:03<hgnmu128>Now, there's a new doubt? Wouldn't OTTD have to search all TARs in data/ directory for EVERY SINGLE GRF?
12:03<@planetmaker>it does that
12:03<@planetmaker>upon startup
12:04<hgnmu128>Full loop through the data/ dir per grf? Is that why loading a preset with a lot of GRFs take a long time?
12:04<@planetmaker>that's why my startup is not really quick ;-)
12:05<hgnmu128>Is it done for all GRFs in the directory or those selected via NewGRF Settings?
12:05<hgnmu128>*only those
12:06<@planetmaker>everything is searched for upon startup. And then things are cached
12:07<hgnmu128>Cached for the same instance only or for the next time as well?
12:07<@planetmaker>so that openttd knows where it finds stuff
12:07<@planetmaker>until you rescan or exit
12:07<@planetmaker>and some other ops also force a re-read afair
12:08<hgnmu128>Okay.
12:09<hgnmu128>And I often thought #openttd was deserted because most OPs and members were away. It seems that it was the doubts which were away.
12:10<hgnmu128>Thanks for the help, planetmaker, Yexo. Good night.
12:10<@planetmaker>g'night
12:10<@Yexo>good night
12:10*hgnmu128 leaves
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12:41<@planetmaker>hm... some things I just don't understand: there's been an open day at the German army and obviously it has been allowed to children to use a targeting system or "came in contact with weapons" under supervision. Obviously that for some reason is not allowed... what point is an open day at the army then?
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12:43<lugo>planetmaker, they called that little village were the children were 'fighting' after a town in bosnia which was involved in conflicts in ww2 and in the 90s again
12:44<@planetmaker>Dunno. That definitely is unfortunate naming then. But the principle is even questioned or said to be illegal
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>it might be morally questionable to advertise weapons to kids, but there is nothing "illegal"
12:45<@planetmaker>I mean... what do those boys do otherwise? They sit at home and play CS or whatever. Or go outside and the same...
12:47<@planetmaker>I think there's a difference between advertising violence and war as conflict solutions and a "hands on experience" so to say.
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12:59<Eddi|zuHause>i remember being at an open day in the army as a child
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>that was 1988-ish
13:00<@planetmaker>That was another army than I visited in my childhood ;-)
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>although that was a ... different army :p
13:00<@planetmaker>I know for sure that I then was on the driver's seat of a battle tank
13:00<@planetmaker>as well as the gunner's place
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>they had camouflage nets and different vehicles, but i don't remember anything specific
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>a radar dish i remember
13:02<@planetmaker>the only other thing is that they made a kind of show / maneuvre combining ground troups and helicopters. Was a good show ;-)
13:03<@planetmaker>at least impressed me back then
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>they tore down that army base last year
13:03<@planetmaker>probably 25 years ago :-P
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13:36<Wolf01>hello
13:37<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
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13:55-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
13:55<CIA-10>OpenTTD: frosch * r22546 /trunk/known-bugs.txt: -Doc [FS#4635]: Add 'trains do not crash with their own wagons' to known_bugs.
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14:24<Bilge>Is it planned to make locks realistic so that enclosed areas have to fill up before boats can travel upstream? Or will they always just float upstream against the flow
14:25<@Belugas>don't think so
14:25<frosch123>it is not planned to make them jump like in ttdp when reversing the ship inside the lock :p
14:25<@Belugas>at elast, not from me. you mentionned the R word
14:25<@Belugas>and what frosch123 said too :)
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14:26<@Yexo>Bilge: currently ships ignore each other
14:26<@Alberth>Bilge: The goal of the game is to provide fun rather than being realistic
14:27<frosch123>anyway, without interaction the ships in ttdp actually go ___|¯¯¯¯
14:27*Belugas applaudes
14:27<frosch123>i.e. they stop in the middle and raise/lower slowly
14:27<@Yexo>when you want to change locks like that ships would have to be aware of each other or you'll get very wierd results when a ship going downstream and one going upstream meet
14:28*Alberth would like that patch :)
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14:34<Eddi|zuHause>feature request: roadvehicles loading in second place at a drive through stop move to front position if the first vehicle leaves
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>(especially if on timetabled wait or full load, if not actually loading)
14:37<Bilge>I don't understand the argument that realism and fun are mutually exclusive
14:37<Bilge>If you want that kind of "fun" make trains ignore each other as well and remove disasters from the game
14:38<Bilge>As it stands right now you can push mass amounts of ships over land using a single width channel
14:38<Bilge>Without penalty
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14:38<Bilge>The cost of taking a shortcut over land with ships should be that locks take time to operate
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>"realism" and "fun" are not mutually exclusive
14:38<@Yexo>not without penalty: ships are very slow, so you lose income
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>and nobody said that
14:39<@Yexo>also canals are very expensive
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>just "realism" as the _only_ support argument for a feature request is like having no argument at all
14:39<Bilge>Along with making them operate correctly you could probably reduce the cost a bit also
14:39<Bilge>As I tried to explain, it's not the only argument
14:40<Bilge>You can send a hundred ships down a single width channel over land without any real penalty
14:40<Bilge>Whereas with all other forms of transport you must provision adequately to provide throughput in any kind of volumew
14:41<Bilge>In that way ships are a bit broken right now
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but if you want to solve that, you need other ways to direct and manage ships, like you can do with signals and trackbits with trains
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14:42<Bilge>It should be a given that a single width canal is one way as soon as the first ship enters it
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>imho ships should still be able to pass through each other, but docks should be limited to one ship at a time
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>(or 3, one on each side)
14:42<Bilge>If you want a two-way canal then it needs to be double width
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: yes, you can build two-width canals, but how do you tell the ships which side to use?
14:43<Bilge>It doesn't matter
14:43<Bilge>You can't build a dock in a canal anyway
14:43<@Yexo>you can
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>you can, just needs a raised land
14:44<Bilge>Then I suppose you should have a one-way system similar to roads
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14:44<@Yexo>but by defaults roads are two-way
14:44<Bilge>But implicitly speaking, a given channel is one-way as soon as the first ship enters it from a given direction and remains so until the last one leaves
14:44<@Yexo>if you keep the default canal as two-way, there is no incentive to make them one-way
14:45<@Alberth>Bilge: even 2 or more wide canals?
14:45<Bilge>Yes but a double-width canal would be one-way twice
14:45<@Alberth>what if you split a canal in 2 directions?
14:45<@Yexo>Bilge: now I create a 2 tile wide canal, let a ship enter from both sides, than remove half of the canal. Now I have a 1 tile wide canal with a ship coming from 2 sides
14:46<@Yexo>and not only splitting, what if you merge two one-way canals?
14:46<Bilge>Each "lane" of a canal can be unidirectional
14:46<@Alberth>Bilge: until now, nobody has found a good way to decide what you propose automatically
14:46<Bilge>I have a picture of how it would work in my head but it's hard to describe
14:47<@Alberth>Bilge: exactly :)
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: i just think it's not practical
14:47<Bilge>I think a canal should be a valid destination for a ship's orders
14:47<Bilge>Like a buoy
14:47<Bilge>As soon as you mouse over the canal it should be possible to highlight the route it would take through that canal regardless of width
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: you can put buoys on canals
14:47<@Yexo>currently the concept of "canal" doesn't exist in openttd, only "canal tiles"
14:47<Bilge>Right, but you should add that concept
14:48<Bilge>So that all connected tiles for a given "route" through the canal are treated as one entity
14:48<Bilge>A double-width canal has two routes
14:48<Bilge>If you modify it while a ship is in transit
14:48<Bilge>It will have to turn around
14:48<@Belugas>Bilge: can we add an order "go to this bridge" with trains?
14:48<Bilge>It can't cross over into the other "lane"
14:49<@Alberth>Bilge: what if another ship is already behind it?
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: what if you have a three-wide canal?
14:49<Bilge>You have three lanes
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: and where does the lane end'?
14:49<Bilge>When it reaches the end of the canal
14:49<@Yexo>Bilge: I can see where you are going. It does add some complications to ships. Personally I wouldn't like such a change at all
14:49<@Yexo>ships are already marginally useful, this would make them only less viable as transport option
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: what if the three-wide canal ends in a 4-wide river?
14:50<Bilge>I think it would be the opposite
14:50<Bilge>If you adjust the costs of canals accordingly it should promote their use
14:50<@Yexo>but you can already adjust the cost of canals now
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: what if the canal makes a curve?
14:50<@Yexo>that is independent from the routing of ships
14:51<@Yexo>a more important question: will ships be able to cross eachother at crossings?
14:51<Bilge>What's a "crossing"?
14:51<@Yexo>one canal from south to north, one from east to west
14:51<@Alberth>Yexo: have a state machine for that?
14:51<@Yexo>Alberth: that would have to be generated automatically
14:52<Bilge>Oh I never thought about that
14:52*Alberth nods
14:52<@Yexo>if not, it'd be very annoying as you would be severely limited in your options
14:52<Bilge>Do canal crossings exists IRL?
14:52<@Alberth>sure
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: of course they do. how do you think ships enter canals?
14:52<Bilge>I suppose you would have to treat it like the end of the canal
14:52<Bilge>i.e. where it becomes regular river again
14:52<@Yexo>think about a 2-tile wide canal from north to south and a 1-tile long channel from west to east that ends in the north-south channel
14:52<Bilge>So that they can negotiate the crossing and then select a new course through the canal system
14:52<@Yexo>the ships coming from the west want to turn both south and north
14:53<@Yexo>so if the left of the north->south canal would be going south and the right north, ships going north would hvae to cross the southward ships
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: other question: how do you want slower ships being overtaken by faster ships?
14:54<@Alberth>Bilge: you cannot stop ships at a crossing, you'd get deadlock
14:54<@Belugas>like trucks are, I would assum,e
14:55<Bilge>Yexo: right, so they would have to wait until the stream was free
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>Belugas: but truck-overtaking is bad as well, currently
14:55<@Yexo>as Alberth said, letting ships stop will lead to a deadlock easily
14:55<@Belugas>indeed, Eddi|zuHause, indeed
14:55<@Belugas>thus...
14:56<Bilge>Alberth: not stop them at a crossing, just stop treating the block as my proposed special "canal" type so that it can negotiate its way to the next canal path
14:56<Bilge>i.e. freestyle
14:56<@Alberth>what is freestyle?
14:56<Bilge>Pathing
14:56<Bilge>With or without buoys as you please
14:56<@Yexo>Bilge: but that would mean if I add a few stubs of single-canal tiles next to my canal the complete canal would turn into freestyle
14:56<@Alberth>what if there is not path?
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: and what if the path is blocked?
14:56<@Yexo>which would defeat the point of your system
14:58<Bilge>Eddi|zuHause: I imagine it would be similar to path signals for trains
14:59<Bilge>If you have a single-width canal that crosses another single-width canal then the ship should never enter the canal system if it couldn't draw a path from start to finish
14:59<Bilge>That is, if it wanted to swith directions and there was another ship oncoming from that direction
14:59<@Alberth>then you cannot have ships closely after each other
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15:00<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: imho it causes too many problems, and offer too little solutions.
15:00<Bilge>I guess it's not worth discussing unless I'm actually going to program it anyway since nobody is going to run with it even if I could come up with an airtight design
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>rails have way more control over the available paths
15:00<@Yexo>Alberth: you can if you store a direction with every reservation and allow multiple reservations per tile as long as the direction is the same
15:00<Bilge>I suspect that if I was proposing the signalling system for trains right now it would be met with equal doubt
15:00<Bilge>Yet we have that already
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15:01<Bilge>But i think you have to think of canals as rails for ships
15:01<@Yexo>Bilge: the problem is not your suggestion, but rather the fact that it's currently not airtight
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15:01<@Yexo>as soon as you have an airtight solution somebody could start implementing it, not before
15:01<Bilge>The open sea is a different animal altogether and pathfinding and buoys suffices for that
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15:01<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: what about one-tile-wide "open sea"?
15:02<Bilge>I don't think I have enough experience with TTD internals to make it airtight
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: what about a 20 tile wide canal?
15:02<@Alberth>you don't need knowledge of internals
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>what defines "open sea"?
15:02*andythenorth needs to read log clearly :P
15:02<Bilge>Eddi|zuHause: I can't imagine that would ever be a real issue. The game knows the difference between a canal and the open sea even if just by virtue of the fact that the graphics tiles are different
15:02<@Alberth>just an algorithm that makes the decision on a grid of tiles where some tiles are canal or sea would be sufficient
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15:03<Bilge>I can query a canal tile and it says "canal", whereas open sea is just "water"
15:03<Bilge>The difference is well defined
15:03<Bilge>Canals are created using the canal tool and open sea is created by modifying land height
15:03<@Alberth>once you have that, it can be built into openttd
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: but why would a one-tile-wide "open sea" be treated differently than a one-tile-wide canal?
15:04<@Alberth>but the algorithm can be created in any language
15:04*andythenorth would welcome water types :P
15:04<Bilge>Because that's the beauty of having both in the game
15:04<andythenorth>dunno why, but it's obviously good
15:05<Bilge>You, as the transport designer get to choose the one you want to use
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>how is that sane design?
15:05<@Alberth>andythenorth: obviosuly, since salt water allows bigger transports :)
15:06<Bilge>Because you can target canals as a destination for ships in my design whereas you cannot target open water
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>why would you need to target a canal?
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>you have buoys for targeting already
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>there is absolutely no reason to target a canal
15:07<Bilge>Buoys would be invalid in canals
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>buoys are valid in canals
15:07<Bilge>>would be
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>by 99.9% chance you won't get a proper savegame conversion then
15:08<Bilge>You seem to be putting up artificial barriers in contrast to others who point out actual flaws in the design
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pointing at holes and practical problems in your supposed design
15:09<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: that is no problem, since a feature like this should be optional anyway imo
15:09<@Yexo>so old savegame would have this off by default
15:09<@Yexo>and you simply wouldn't be able to turn it on as long as there are buoys in canals or similar conversion problems
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>ok, but that still does not answer the previous question: why on earth would you forbid buoys and move their functionality to canals, when buoys work perfectly fine currently?
15:15<@Alberth>Bilge: you could see them as destinations in a canal, perhaps?
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>PS: the original lock question could be solved with "traffic objects"
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>if only $someone would finish those airport state machines :p
15:19*Yexo is nowhere to be found :p
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>a lock could then be made similar to TTDP-locks, and at the same time limited to one ship
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>(which is not entirely "realistic", but enough of a hassle to make people optimise things
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>there could also be "double locks" where one side goes up and the other goes down simultaneously
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>all neatly confined to newgrfs, with absolutely no change to the default game
15:23<andythenorth>yarp
15:23<andythenorth><tal:replace="string:someone" /> was also working on multi-stop docks
15:23<andythenorth>which would have the same game outcome as fooling with canals
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>i said that as well in the above discussion
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>limiting docks to one (or three) ships simultaneously
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>don't worry about canals at all
15:26<andythenorth>it would limit ship capacity in sufficient ways to make it interesting
15:26<andythenorth>and no state machine needed
15:27<andythenorth>anyone prepared to write state machines should work on seaplane airports :P
15:29<Bilge>andythenorth can I send you a modified language file for FIRS?
15:30<Bilge>I don't want to mess about creating accounts and learning bug tracking systems
15:30<andythenorth>post it in the FIRS dev thread
15:31<Bilge>Do you have a link?
15:33<@Alberth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=41607
15:34<Bilge>If I signed up on the ottd site do I have access to this forum
15:34<@Alberth>no
15:34<andythenorth>no forum account :O :)
15:34<@Alberth>well, you always have read-only access :p
15:34*andythenorth is shocked
15:34<andythenorth>you can try sending it to me direct from your irc client
15:35<andythenorth>it sometimes works, sometimes doesn't
15:35<@Alberth>Bilge: dump it on a pastebin?
15:36<Bilge>It is the responsibility of the sender to set up DCC correctly. Fortunately I know how to do that
15:36<Bilge>I just signed up for the forum now anyway
15:36-!-KritiK [~Maxim@95-26-18-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
15:36<@Yexo>Bilge: if you create an account on the openttd site you can use it for the wiki, bug tracker and bananas
15:37<@Yexo>for the forum you need a separate account, as well as yet another account for the openttdcoop devzone
15:38-!-sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Quit: TTW - http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-third-tiberium-war]
15:38<Bilge>I saw a list of things I could use it for and I was sure one of them was a forum - oh well :)
15:41<@Alberth>the forum is run by another person
15:41<Bilge>I have a feeling it might predate ottd also
15:42<@Alberth>I wouldn't know, openttd predates me by several years :)
15:42<@Yexo>the forum did indeed predate openttd
15:43<@Yexo>by a few years I think
15:43<@Alberth>at least when you start counting when I joined here for the first time :)
15:43<Bilge>This seems a bit ironic to me: http://wiki.openttd.org/GUI_Style
15:44<@Terkhen>I think that it also predates TTDPatch :P
15:44<Bilge>One of the dialogs that annoys me the most is the "Message from vehicle manufaturer" window because it violates good UI design yet is included on a page about GUI style
15:45<@Terkhen>"Since OpenTTD is a game of the 1990s, it should also have that look and feel." <--- that does not mean it is a good UI design :P
15:45<Bilge>By common windows layout conventions the affirmative should be the first button in left-to-right reading environments
15:45<Bilge>So the "yes" and "no" buttons are the wrong way round
15:46<Bilge>Every single time it pops up I nearly click the wrong one by that habit introduced by every other program (good) program out there
15:46<andythenorth>hmm
15:46<andythenorth>ttd original probably predates some of the people now submitting ottd patches :P
15:46<@Terkhen>my habit introduced by years of playing TT / OpenTTD would make me click on the wrong one if that was changed
15:47<andythenorth>"Since OpenTTD is a game of the 1990s, it should also have that look and feel."
15:47<andythenorth>should be suffixed "except if you use giant icons + fonts"
15:47<Bilge>Also the first thing i looked for was an option to move the close button to the right side of the window
15:47<@Terkhen>hmm... although I usually just use DEL to delete whatever uninteresting window pops up to annoy me
15:48<Bilge>It's never going to look like a game of the 1990s unless you crank out an old CRT monitor running 640x480
15:48<andythenorth>Bilge: all your conventions are not my conventions :)
15:48<andythenorth>I don't disagree that they are windows conventions
15:49<Bilge>You might have spent a little too much time with OTTD then ;p
15:49<andythenorth>by accident OTTD is closer to OS X / classic Mac OS
15:49<andythenorth>in some respects
15:49<Bilge>Don't get me wrong, I played the original game back in 1994 for hours
15:49<Bilge>But I'm looking at it now with a pair of eyes from 2011
15:49<andythenorth>the GUI does suck in numerous places, but that's kind of known
15:49<@Terkhen>probably because when TT was released windows was not even an OS
15:49<Bilge>Just because it was like that in the past doesn't mean it shouldn't be improved today
15:49<andythenorth>fixing one bit starts to unpick others
15:50<andythenorth>Terkhen: when it was released, you had to boot windows 3.1
15:50<@Terkhen>:D
15:50<andythenorth>from your 256MB hard drive
15:50<@Terkhen>that thing was annoying
15:50<Bilge>andythenorth: when it was released you had to dual boot your PC into DOS mode because Windows used up too much memory to run games
15:50<Katje_>256meg?
15:50<Katje_>luxury!
15:50<andythenorth>right, what are we coding?
15:51<@Terkhen>andythenorth: newgrf debug gui for town persistent storage, soon I'll start testing :)
15:51<Katje_>Terkhen: ooh, whats that?
15:52<@Terkhen>Katje_: registers for towns that all NewGRFs can access (under some restrictions to avoid a descent to madness)
15:53<@Terkhen>andythenorth has a lot of ideas in that direction about this feature :)
15:53<Katje_>what does that mean to me as a player ?
15:53<@Terkhen>industry and house newgrfs will be able to implement new cool features
15:54<Katje_>such as...
15:54<@Terkhen>towns having distinct building styles for example
15:54<Katje_>ooh
15:57<andythenorth>cool features
15:57<andythenorth>electricity :P
15:57<andythenorth>a town won't be able to access another town's storage by putting the town id in register 101h?
15:57<andythenorth>nvm
15:58<@Terkhen>no :P
15:58<andythenorth>it's not a good way to do pipelines anyway
15:58<andythenorth>I *know* pipelines are wrong
15:58<andythenorth>but every time I have oil wells ~16 tiles from the shore, I want one
15:58<@Terkhen>hmm... how are town persistent storage and pipelines related?
15:59<andythenorth>they're not
15:59<andythenorth>I test things by thinking aloud :P
15:59<@Alberth>andythenorth: just draw a 1 tile pumping station for putting at the shore :p
16:02<andythenorth>I think that's done in DWE set ;)
16:02<andythenorth>cheating :P
16:02<andythenorth>above ground pipelines, like alaska
16:02<Katje_>hold on there is pipelines as a feature?
16:02<andythenorth>no no
16:02<Katje_>awww
16:02<andythenorth>nor is there likely to be, except by abusive newgrfs
16:03<Katje_>they would be a great feature...
16:03<andythenorth>they are not transport (allegedly)
16:03*andythenorth somewhat disagrees
16:03<andythenorth>so does the source of all human knowledge
16:03<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport
16:04<Katje_>lol
16:05-!-firefoxfan [firefoxfan@catv-80-98-31-161.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #openttd
16:05<andythenorth>he
16:05<andythenorth>I love mumbai http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Borivali_station_peak_hours.jpg
16:06<andythenorth>hmm "The engineering of this roundabout in Bristol, United Kingdom, attempts to make traffic flow free-moving"
16:06<andythenorth>it kind of works
16:06<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Roundabout.bristol.arp.jpg
16:06<@Alberth>we should have a trainset with people on the roof etc
16:06<andythenorth>but it sucks to cycle through
16:06<andythenorth>Alberth: that's being done
16:06<andythenorth>2CC set
16:07<@Terkhen>for real?
16:07<andythenorth>look in the thread
16:08*andythenorth bought a suit in that roundabout picture
16:08<andythenorth>in the building bottom left
16:08<andythenorth>but enough about me :P
16:08<@peter1138>andythenorth, technically the yellow boxes are implied on all rounadabouts
16:08<@Terkhen>I assumed it was a joke :O
16:08<@peter1138>just everybody ignores that
16:08<@peter1138>-a
16:09<andythenorth>wiki-surfing is always fun :P
16:10<andythenorth>so.
16:10<andythenorth>pipelines?
16:12<@Terkhen>infrastructure that transport constant amounts of cargo over time without needing a vehicle?
16:12<andythenorth>yes
16:12<andythenorth>same underlying spec could also do ropeways, skilifts etc
16:12<andythenorth>funicular :P
16:13<@Terkhen>it would need a completely new way of moving cargopackets around
16:13<andythenorth>and some work on the map array no doubt
16:13<andythenorth>might be tmwftlb, but I don't think it's a wrong concept
16:14<@Terkhen>I agree on both of your statements :P
16:14<andythenorth>for gameplay I would limit it to 'occupies the tile, unless you tunnel explicitly'
16:14<@Terkhen>it might be wrong regarding the "openttd is about transport companies" design principle
16:14<andythenorth>i.e. you can't just place start + end point
16:14<andythenorth>every tile between point A and B must contain this transport type
16:15<andythenorth>you could maybe tunnel, but same limitations as current - no corners, no crossing
16:16<andythenorth>move the packets using invisible vehicles
16:17<andythenorth>number of vehicles is a function of 'capacity'
16:17<andythenorth>player chooses capacity when building
16:17<andythenorth>capacity can be upgraded or downgraded by overbuilding
16:17<andythenorth>smallest capacity tile on entire point-point route determines actual capacity used
16:18<andythenorth>use the tram pathfinder
16:19<@planetmaker>[21:54] Terkhen towns having distinct building styles for example <--hmm... :-) I didn't think of *that*
16:19<@planetmaker>awesome :-)
16:19<@Terkhen>andythenorth's idea :)
16:19<andythenorth>can already be done near enough
16:19<@Terkhen>first house to be placed "decides" on the building style and stores it in a register, the rest of houses follow that decision
16:19<andythenorth>you could already do that: check town ID for example, have rules for odd / even, divide by 3, whatever scheme you want
16:19<@planetmaker>andythenorth: you can kinda retrieve the next town's 'style' by querying distinct houses
16:19<@planetmaker>it's an abuse, but could work
16:20-!-ChoHag [~mking@109-170-148-201.xdsl.murphx.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:20<@Terkhen>but now you can base your decision on stuff like "tiles from water" or "tile height" and store it (I never checked house callbacks but I'm assuming the usual stuff)
16:20<@Terkhen>s/now/when it is done/ ;)
16:21<andythenorth>no-one has shot down my pipeline idea :P
16:21*andythenorth expects arguments to be tested :D
16:21<@planetmaker>Terkhen: I think we *urgently* need a new town set :-P
16:21<andythenorth>planetmaker: why?
16:22<@planetmaker>[22:20] Terkhen but now you can base your decision on stuff like "tiles from water" or "tile height" and store it (I never checked house callbacks but I'm assuming the usual stuff) <-- that's why :-P
16:22<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I find it conceptually correct, but too much work
16:22<andythenorth>terrain-dependent towns?
16:22<@planetmaker>yup
16:22*andythenorth wonders
16:22<andythenorth>if we went digging in 60+ vars that might be possible now
16:22<andythenorth>or maybe even just in <60+ vars
16:23<andythenorth>who draws it?
16:24<@Terkhen>Zephyris procedural tool? :P
16:25<andythenorth>he should adjust the lighting in that case :P
16:25*andythenorth is broken record
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16:35*andythenorth should code some new FIRS
16:35<Bilge>andythenorth, what does this line mean: #define TEXT_INFO_MS_PRIMARY_BOOST "\98Manufacturing supplies double production from other cargos.\0D\0D\80"
16:35<Bilge>Keeping in mind I haven't played FIRS yet
16:35<Bilge>Doesn't it mean FOR other cargo?
16:36<Bilge>Or even, for other INDUSTRY?
16:36<andythenorth>that line is possibly not used in current FIRS
16:36<andythenorth>let me check for you ;)
16:36<Bilge>Thanks bro
16:37<andythenorth>yup not used - don't bother translating
16:37<andythenorth>we haven't been removing old language defines
16:37<andythenorth>maybe we should
16:38<Bilge>I'm translating it into English
16:39<andythenorth>interesting direction :)
16:39<Bilge>haha yes
16:42<Bilge>The phrase "within a month" is used a lot but how does that work exactly?
16:43<Bilge>From the way it's worded I gather it doesn't have to be the same month
16:43<Bilge>Like febrary to march would be OK
16:43<Bilge>But is it 30 days?
16:43<@Terkhen>you should play before trying to translate it
16:43<Bilge>What about months with 28 days?
16:43<Bilge>Even if I played I still wouldn't have the answer to that
16:44<andythenorth>currently it's inconsistent
16:44<andythenorth>for some cargos it's within the same calendar month
16:44<@planetmaker>a month is a calander month
16:44<andythenorth>for others it's within ~30 days
16:44<andythenorth>it should be made consistent :P
16:45<andythenorth>here['someone'] can do that when it's converted to nml
16:46<Bilge>I won't bother trying to make the text read any clearer then
16:49<andythenorth>the cargos and industry names are quite stable
16:50<andythenorth>the industry window texts might change in future versions
16:54<Wolf01>'night
16:54-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host68-239-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
16:55<@planetmaker>I like your "good news, bad news" - posting, Eddi|zuHause ;-)
16:55<andythenorth>Bilge: the file didn't transfer :(
16:55<andythenorth>dcc often fails
16:55<Bilge>Yeah I see that
16:56<Bilge>Might be this crappy windows firewall
16:56<@planetmaker>dccs never reach me ;-)
16:56<@Belugas>END OF THE FREAKING DAY!!!!!
16:57<@Belugas>YOUHOU!!!!
16:57<@Belugas>so... go home and keep onbuilding my walls!!
16:57<@Belugas>bye all
16:59<@Terkhen>enjoy Belugas :)
17:00<@planetmaker>enjoy, Belugas :-)
17:01<andythenorth>Bilge: try http://paste.openttdcoop.org/
17:01<Bilge>Can you just accept this one first? :)
17:01<andythenorth>I did already ;)
17:01<andythenorth>dcc rarely works
17:01<Bilge>The second one?
17:01<andythenorth>yup
17:02<andythenorth>we have a work irc where we run our own server with everything supported - it doesn't work even there
17:02-!-Amis [~Amis@5400EA7C.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:03-!-elmz_ [~elmz@184.213-167-126.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:05<Bilge>I can't attach a file on the forum that doesn't work either
17:05<Bilge>>The extension pnfo is not allowed.
17:05<Bilge>Real
17:05<andythenorth>yup :(
17:05<Bilge>As if the file name in any way denoted the type of content I'm uploading
17:05<andythenorth>have to zip it :(
17:05<andythenorth>or change the extension to .txt
17:06<Bilge>I just renamed it to .zip
17:06<Chris_Booth>Needing someone is like needing a parachute. If he isn't there the first time you need him, chances are you won't be needing him again.
17:06<Chris_Booth>:D
17:06<Chris_Booth>great saying
17:10<andythenorth>he
17:10<andythenorth>now my mac thinks it is a zip
17:10<andythenorth>and is trying to decompress it
17:10<andythenorth>:)
17:11<Chris_Booth>change file type?
17:11<Chris_Booth>or will that break your mac?
17:11*andythenorth tries
17:11-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
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17:11<@Alberth>Chris_Booth: clearly, it did :p
17:11<Chris_Booth>lol
17:12-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
17:12<andythenorth>duke nukem is being released :o
17:12<@Alberth>you managed to unbreak your mac?
17:12<andythenorth>apparently
17:12<Chris_Booth>http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150640459400274&set=a.10150167427380274.416740.831615273&type=1
17:13<Chris_Booth>that is so true ^
17:13<Chris_Booth><3 stumble
17:15<Chris_Booth>I am never quite sure why I have this channel on my start up list, not as if I talk in here much unless I am trying to annoy someone
17:15<SmatZ>because you like openttd?
17:16-!-dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd
17:16<Chris_Booth>yes but I have other openttd channels that I uses
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>blasphemy!!
17:16<Chris_Booth>think its the same reason I join #tycoon
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>thou shall not have an openttd channel besides us!
17:17<Chris_Booth>realy, not even a realy nice server channel
17:17<Chris_Booth>or nice dev channel?
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>*shallst
17:17-!-roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:17<Chris_Booth>I shalst have to @kbanme from all other openttd channels then
17:18<Chris_Booth>otherwise I am breaking the rules of this channel
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>first person never has -st ending
17:20<andythenorth>Chris_Booth: you could remove the auto-join
17:20<andythenorth>try it
17:20<andythenorth>life might get better
17:21<Chris_Booth>andythenorth: no that would make my IRC client explode
17:23<SmatZ>nice, about 16% of pupils failed that high-school final exams (das Abitur) ... it was the first year when there was a common part of exams that was the same for all schools
17:23<V453000>nice
17:24*andythenorth wonders
17:25<V453000>guess young people dont drink enough beer SmatZ
17:25<V453000>all those vodka and shit ...
17:25<@Yexo>SmatZ: only part of it is the same? is the rest made by each school separately?
17:25<andythenorth>are advanced sprite layouts documented on ttdp wiki?
17:25<V453000>Yexo: yes, it has 2 parts afaik
17:25<@Yexo>andythenorth: not sure, but they are here: http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Extended_Sprite_Layout
17:26<andythenorth>hmm
17:26<andythenorth>that's a lot of stuff to add to current ttdp wiki page :o
17:26<andythenorth>maybe it needs its own page
17:26<frosch123>yup :s
17:26<Chris_Booth>wow 16% is high, is it a hard exam?
17:26<SmatZ>Yexo: yeah
17:26<frosch123>i guess the current station action 0 page first needs splitting
17:27<frosch123>moving all the general blabla (what is a bounding box) to a separate page
17:28<andythenorth>that would make sense
17:28-!-DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:28<frosch123>but currently the action 0 page is already too hard to understand :p
17:28<frosch123>so i did not dare adding more stuff :p
17:28<andythenorth>yes
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: when they introduced "western" standards for "Abitur" here, they switched between a very hard one and a very easy one each year, until they met the proper difficulty in the middle like after 10 years ;)
17:29<andythenorth>it took me too long to understand that stations worked differently to house / industry tiles :P
17:29<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: hehe :)
17:29<V453000>:D
17:29<andythenorth>it's too late today to rework that wiki for me :|
17:29<SmatZ>there were test exams in October
17:29-!-enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:30<SmatZ>so they rougly knew how hard the exams are... expectations were 15%-20% of students will fail :)
17:30-!-KouDy1 [~KouDy@ip-94-112-27-160.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:30<andythenorth>frosch123: linking here from TTDP wiki is considered cheating? http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Extended_Sprite_Layout
17:30<frosch123>andythenorth: does that help anything?
17:30<@Yexo>andythenorth: that's a bad idea imo
17:30<frosch123>the current spec is only an add-on spec
17:30<andythenorth>only reminding someone not to forget
17:31<frosch123>and i already added a note to the wiki
17:31<@Yexo>mostly because it's splitting the spec across two wikis
17:31-!-roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd
17:31<frosch123>also there are quite some corner cases which need pointing out better
17:31<frosch123>so, the whole spritelayout stuff needs renewing
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: so it was exactly in the expected range, where is the problem? :p
17:32<andythenorth>ok
17:32<andythenorth>I was considering trying some extended layouts with FIRS
17:32*frosch123 remembers a test with an exponential distribution for the results: 1/2 failed, 1/4 got 4.0, 1/8 got 3.7, 1/16 gor 3.3, ...
17:33<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: there's no problem :) it just makes me happy the quality of high schools might rise
17:33<SmatZ>and so there's a common scale of knowledge for all schools
17:33<@Yexo>here they just average the results so they expected number of students fails
17:34<SmatZ>so universities can take the "score" for the final exams into account when accepting students
17:34<@Yexo>doesn't matter how good or bad the students from that year are, they'll adjust the results so that approximately the same amount of students fail
17:34<SmatZ>Yexo: interesting
17:35<frosch123>well, from my experience with exams (revising, not doing myself), there is usually quite a gap in the results. so you can easily separate failing from passed
17:35-!-enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd
17:35<Chris_Booth>that is how most university's in the UK work, they set out limits of the grades as a % of students
17:36*andythenorth -> bed
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17:36<Chris_Booth>and then give out 1st 2nd etc according to where you sat along the curve of results
17:36<Chris_Booth>means they can make grades look as good or as bad as they want
17:36<Chris_Booth>which is rather stupid
17:36<SmatZ>I wonder what effect on above-average students can have the fact that they know that 5% of students will fail
17:37<SmatZ>and that they are unlikely to fail, even if they won't study well for the exams
17:37<@peter1138>5
17:37<SmatZ>or more?
17:37<Chris_Booth>its about 30% fail rates for 3rd year degrees
17:37<SmatZ>uh :)
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: i don't think that has any effect at all
17:38<Chris_Booth>it also isn't all subjects
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>Chris_Booth: university is a whole different picture
17:38<frosch123>SmatZ: i know a lot who skipped any preparation, if they were sure they would somehow pass
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>Chris_Booth: like 80% drop out during the first two semesters
17:39<Chris_Booth>Eddi|zuHause: what university did you go to?
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>a normal one.
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17:39<Eddi|zuHause>numbers may vary drastically depending on what topic you study
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>and whether that topic was restricted in the first place
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>(numerus clausus)
17:40<Chris_Booth>we had about 50% drop out on my course
17:40<Chris_Booth>and that was high the university said
17:40<Chris_Booth>but we ended up with only 15 people on the course :D
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17:42<@planetmaker>Chris_Booth: my smallest university courses were myself and two other fellows. One of them dropped half-way ;-)
17:43<Chris_Booth>that is small I thought 15 was small
17:43<Chris_Booth>most of my friends have 100s of people on there course
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>i had a lecture with one other guy and the professor
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>advanced analysis ;)
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>with really cool tidbits on the sidelines... like "Gauss took a few seminars at this university. but they usually refrain from calling him a 'student'" :p
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17:53*planetmaker usually shows visiting friends the school where Gauss summed up the numbers of 0 ... 100 much too fast for his teacher's liking ;-)
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>;)
17:55*Eddi|zuHause wonders whether that actually happened, or they just made that stuff up to torture innocent pupils
17:56<@planetmaker>it's not unlikely. With a bit of thinking that formula is very clear
17:57<@planetmaker>\sum_i=1^n = (n+1)*n/2 = (n*n + n) / 2
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it's very unlikely they had that notation back then :p
17:58<@planetmaker>sum 1 ... 100 = (100+1) + (99+2) + (98+3) + ...
17:58<@planetmaker>not needed ;-)
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>i know the formula
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17:59*planetmaker has a mis-aligned grid sprite :S
18:01<@Terkhen>good night
18:01<@planetmaker>g'night Terkhen
18:08<bodis>nn
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18:19<@planetmaker>btw, Eddi|zuHause do you still need an action5 block for <whatever> or have you added it already?
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i think what i did worked, just nforenum bails
18:20<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/index.php?folder=gridswitch/ <-- you could take this grfcodec patch
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>with an overly dramatic error
18:20<@planetmaker>adopt the number of sprites accordingly
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>i just think it could be less fatal of an error
18:21<@planetmaker>possibly
18:22<@planetmaker>it's just a two-line change to grfcodec / nforenum, though
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not compiling it myself
18:22<@planetmaker>well ;-)
18:23<@planetmaker>definitely not more complicated than openttd
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>my philosophy is "don't compile anything that you don't have to"
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18:53<Bilge>planetmaker: you here 24/7?
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19:04<Bilge>Guess not
19:04<@Yexo>Bilge: he uses a bouncer, which means he'll appear to be online for 24/7
19:04<@Yexo>that doesn't mean he's at his computer the whole time
19:05<@Yexo>but you can highlight him at any time of the day and he'll read your message when he is
19:05<Bilge>By contrast you ARE here 24/7 :P
19:06<@Yexo>not for any longer, as I'm going to sleep now ;)
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19:09<Eddi|zuHause>are you asking anybody now who writes something, whether he is online 24/7?
19:14<Bilge>Everyone but you Eddi
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---Logopened Tue Jun 07 20:32:45 2011
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23:53<@Terkhen>good morning
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---Logclosed Wed Jun 08 00:00:44 2011