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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-06-08

---Logopened Wed Jun 08 00:00:44 2011
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01:01<@Terkhen>hi bodis
01:15<@planetmaker>moin bodis
01:24<bodis>didnt realize that passengers are as good income source as any industry
01:24<bodis>playing with no industries at all and doing just fine :)
01:26<@Terkhen>your vehicles don't have to travel back empty :)
01:27<bodis>yep :)
01:28<bodis>ok work
01:28<bodis>cya laters
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01:30<@planetmaker>hm... subsprites don't seem to support palettes
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03:23<andythenorth>Rubidium: it looks like bananas stores some configuration information (ottd versions etc) in mysql?
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03:57<dihedral>oi :-)
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04:02<@Terkhen>hi dihedral
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04:06<@Terkhen>hi ben__
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04:07<dihedral>bye ben__
04:08<@Terkhen>patience is a scarce virtue :)
04:10<dihedral>virtue was never one of my virtues
04:27<@planetmaker>virtual virtues ;-)
04:28<@Terkhen>in the base person class, virtues are virtual functions and have empty implementations that return nothing
04:29<@Terkhen>most people don't reimplement those functions
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04:32<@Terkhen>hi Gibono
04:33<Gibono>thank you for the job you are accomplishing on openttd
04:33<Gibono>it's a pleasure to play this game again
04:35<@Terkhen>you are welcome Gibono, it's a pleasure to work on it too :)
04:43<@planetmaker>[10:28] Terkhen in the base person class, virtues are virtual functions and have empty implementations that return nothing
04:43<@planetmaker>[10:29] Terkhen most people don't reimplement those functions
04:43<@planetmaker>^^ hehe :-) well said
04:44*Terkhen has a broken implementation of diligence
04:45*planetmaker knows another such person
04:46<@Terkhen>if (days_to_due_date >= threshold) return procrastinate;
04:46<@Terkhen>but the threshold becomes smaller every day too
04:52<@planetmaker>can be interpreted as efficiency, though ;-)
04:53<@Terkhen>only if I succeed :P
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05:41<Bilge>Some degree of tram support is included in OTTD itself right?
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>yes. all tram support is included in OpenTTD. just not any tram
05:44<__ln__>and this isn't the least bit ridiculous, is it
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05:57<Bilge>Probably not given that it seems to be bugged
05:58<Bilge>My only question would be as to what is at fault - OTTD or the newgrf
06:01<@Terkhen>depends on the bug
06:07<Bilge>Trams passing through each other
06:07<@Terkhen>that's not a tram bug
06:08<@Terkhen>the same happens with regular road vehicles :)
06:08<Bilge>Only time I've seen that is when they fail to overtake properly
06:08<@Terkhen>they also overtake through other vehicles, and start driving through other vehicles if a jam is completely stopped for enough time
06:08<Bilge>I had two trams queued up at a station while the first one was taking its sweet time loading a full load of cargo
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06:09<Bilge>Eventually it got bored of waiting and just decided to pass through it
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>yep, those are quantum effects
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>advanced settings -> vehicles -> road vehicle queueing (with quantum effects)
06:09<@planetmaker>he, that's even an adv. setting?
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>at least it used to be...
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06:10<@Terkhen>I remember something like that, yes
06:12<@planetmaker>obviously I didn't do an adv. setting / rcon comptition for a long time ;-)
06:12<@planetmaker>And even then Ammler won the last time :-P
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>but it's in vehicles->pathfinder
06:12<@Terkhen>what is an rcon competition?
06:13<@planetmaker>:-) It was a kinda fun: Like "what's the setting name to stop a town growing?" - "what's the setting name for max. train length" etc
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>i think it can be "an" at that place ;)
06:13<@planetmaker>those who failed first to provide the proper answer looses ;-)
06:14<@planetmaker>looking at cfg doesn't count
06:14<@Terkhen>oh, I was thinking on something more spectacular :P
06:14<@planetmaker>i.e. a competition to remember most settings ;-)
06:14<@planetmaker>sorry to disappoint you ;-)
06:14<@planetmaker>it was a bit about who can configure faster the server to the desired settings - that's where it evolved from
06:14<@Terkhen>mess with the advanced settings, the first one to utterly destroy the savegame wins
06:15<@planetmaker>sort of :-P
06:16<@planetmaker>but we played with our life server :-P
06:16<@planetmaker> set settingname just gives the value so one doesn't need to destroy anything ;-)
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06:24<Chris_Booth>seems like a boring game
06:25<@planetmaker>after 5 or 10 minutes you're done ;-)
06:25<@planetmaker>and don't need to repeat it for a year at least
06:30<Chris_Booth>you could play list that coop save
06:30<Chris_Booth>but I know who would win that one, unless you didn't allow them to join in
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07:17<Eddi|zuHause>hm... rather dark outside
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09:18<fjb>Moin Belugas
09:18<@Belugas>sir fjb, i wasve at you
09:18*fjb waves back.
09:20<@planetmaker>ho fjb :-)
09:21*Vikthor waves at the whale-man and rest of you
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09:25<fjb>Moin planetmaker
09:25<fjb>Moin Vikthor
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09:32*Belugas waves and waves and dives and bubbles
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09:55<Chris_Booth>that made me lol
09:55<Chris_Booth>got to love idiots
09:56<Chris_Booth>that is a case of: I'd explain it to you, but your brain would explode
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10:36<lugo>Chris_Booth, or like 'i can explain it to you, but i can't comprehend it for you' ;)
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10:44<Eddi|zuHause>well... he COULD have instead said "where Dracula is from"
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12:05<@Terkhen>what desktop environments do you use?
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>i use KDE
12:07<@Terkhen>I'm planning on testing a few to see if I like a different one, gnome is giving me too many headaches lately
12:08<Ammler>gnome 3?
12:09<Ammler>I heard, gnome 3 is worse then KDE4 was :-)
12:10<Rubidium>XFCE... though that seems to be getting huge as well :(
12:10<Ammler>xfce is just another gnome
12:10<Ammler>lxde maybe
12:10*planetmaker still uses kde
12:11*Ammler should try egg, the other qt DE
12:12<@Terkhen>last time I tested kde I found it a bit confusing
12:12<@Terkhen>it was kde 3 IIRC, though
12:12<Ammler>kde might habe too many settings, which gnome has too few
12:13*Rubidium ponders making some "OpenTTD doesn't participate in the 'World IPv6 day'" post on the website
12:14*planetmaker found the ipv6 day totally uneventful
12:14*Terkhen will start by testing the DE mentioned here :P
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12:25<Bilge>What happens if you set the message type to "summary" instead of "full"?
12:25<Bilge>Oh, I see, a news ticker
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>the ticker is bad.
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>don't use it
12:29<Prof_Frink>New Stickers? Where?
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>it blocks all important messages until the ticker went through
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>which kinda defeats the point
12:31<Prof_Frink>I'd like to see summary messages appear like MP chat
12:31<@planetmaker>probably a good idea
12:32<@planetmaker>or at least interesting
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12:35<Bilge>So the ticker queue and popup queue aren't separate?
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12:39<@Belugas># Que hora son mi corazon ?
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 12/15
12:46<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 0.8
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 8/12
12:46<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 0.666666666667
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 11/15
12:47<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 0.733333333333
12:47*Rubidium wonders what that was about
12:58*Bilge doesn't
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>divide and conquer. this was the dividing part.
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>"*evil grin*" :p
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13:01<Eddi|zuHause>why does the name "Manu Chao" ring a bell?
13:03<@Terkhen>he's a singer
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i've got that far :p
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13:03<@Terkhen>I think he's actually from here, but I don't know much else either :P
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13:12<DanMacK>Hey all
13:13<@Terkhen>hi DanMacK
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13:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: translators * r22547 /trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt:
13:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
13:45*DanMacK waves
13:46*Rubidium waves in the general direction of DanMacKia
13:46<@Belugas>is he fro Spain? I though he was from France
13:47<@Belugas>ho well.. he can vry well be :)
13:47*Belugas was right :)
13:48<@Belugas>born in Paris in 1961
13:48<@Belugas>mmh.. just a tiny older than me
13:48<@Belugas>and a bit crasier :)
13:53<@Terkhen>612 MB for kde
13:54<@Terkhen>I guess I selected everything :P
13:54<@planetmaker>well. 1o/oo for OS is acceptable ;-)
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14:11*bodis hates kde
14:12<bodis>or anything remotely looking like M$ :P
14:12<@Terkhen>bodis: I'm testing a few DE to see which one is the best for me
14:12<bodis>gone through that half a year ago
14:12<@Terkhen>given that I spend a lot of time on windows too that would not be a problem :P
14:12<bodis>have you tried openbox?
14:13<@Terkhen>no, I'll add it to the list of DE to test :)
14:13<bodis>well depends how much eye candy you need
14:13<bodis>for me with my minimalistic needs - gedit and openttd, openbox is perfect :P
14:14<@Terkhen>not much, but I love features that allow me to do what I want quickly
14:14<@Terkhen>gnome 3 had a few, but the cons outweight the pros
14:14<bodis>heh yeah bloaty...
14:14<bodis>like kde
14:14<@Terkhen>specially the "crash at random moments" problem
14:14<frosch123>kde 3 was best
14:15<frosch123>it had a really good konsole, and a really good kate
14:15<@Terkhen>hmm... I'm installing kde 4.6 right now, but there was a link to a project that maintains kde 3 too
14:15<bodis>well openbox is very minimalistic, but you have to add everything manuallu to menus
14:15<bodis>which aint a problem really :)
14:15<bodis>but you can customize it exactly yto your needs :)
14:16<@Terkhen>hmm... that sounds like work :P
14:16<bodis>whats distro you running?
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14:16<frosch123>no idea about the newer kdes, i left kde 4 very quickly after kde 3 was no longer part of the gentoo distribution. but at that point (kde 4.3 or so), both konsole and kate were totally unusable
14:16<bodis>crunchbang debian here
14:16<|Jeroen|>try xfce
14:16<bodis>xfce is nice too
14:16<@Terkhen>|Jeroen|: it is on my list of stuff to test :)
14:17<bodis>youll be a busy bot :)
14:17<bodis>boy even
14:17<|Jeroen|>then it will win the tests :-p
14:18<@Terkhen>yes, but while it downloads I can keep writing documentation or playing openttd
14:18<bodis>not sure :)
14:18<bodis>he sounds like eye candy stuff :P
14:18<@Terkhen>who, me?
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14:19<@Terkhen>I don't know, I have only used gnome :P
14:19<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
14:20<@Alberth>hi andy
14:20<@planetmaker>hi andy
14:24<andythenorth>I think we did it wrong
14:25<andythenorth>banning changing newgrfs during game
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: what do you think is wrong with current konsole and kate?
14:25<andythenorth>although I was in favour of it
14:25<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I still think it's good
14:26<@planetmaker>people just are still used to the old ways like "it worked before"
14:26<@planetmaker>every single person who asks about it, did it before
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>yes. it already gets better
14:26<@Terkhen>IMO once that scenarios are decoupled from NewGRFs we should remove the option to change NewGRFs completely :)
14:26<@Terkhen>but that's a bit drastic I guess
14:27<andythenorth>is the newgrf menu visible during game play now?
14:27*andythenorth has no idea
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it is read-only
14:27<@planetmaker>as newgrf list... without options to change anything
14:27<@Terkhen>yes, it just lists the NewGRFs
14:27<@Alberth>and you can save the preset :p
14:27<andythenorth>should remove it
14:27<@Terkhen>it still shows you warnings on current NewGRFs and so on
14:28<@planetmaker>it's missing a parameter view
14:28<@planetmaker>that was less trivial than it sounded at first ;-)
14:28<andythenorth>you can change parameters in-game still?
14:28<@planetmaker>you can't change anything.
14:28<andythenorth>that must be annoying
14:28<andythenorth>I often change params during game play
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>changing parameters is potentially the same as adding/removing a grf
14:29<@Terkhen>I completely misunderstood how the saveload code works
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14:30<@Terkhen>sorry, I just realized why town storage wasn't being saved
14:30<andythenorth>how often does adding a grf cause things to go boom?
14:30<@planetmaker>often enough.
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: adding a grf, rarely. removing a grf, often.
14:30<@planetmaker>it's not about the number. It's about that it does it *at all*
14:30<@planetmaker>it's always a bug
14:31<andythenorth>I think we might have decided on a wrong solution though
14:31<andythenorth>maybe it's the only one we have time for
14:31<@planetmaker>bugs are right then?
14:31<andythenorth>but it's engineering-focussed, not user-focussed
14:31<@Terkhen>what would be the right solution?
14:31<@Alberth>andythenorth: it is engineering reality
14:31<@planetmaker>hardly. Bugs are what is *really* annoying
14:31<@planetmaker>when the game crashes
14:32<andythenorth>if adding any vehicle grf to a game with engine pool enabled causes a crash, that's an openttd bug
14:32<andythenorth>or the newgrf is doing something stupid
14:32<@planetmaker>it's a newgrf incompatibility
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>i think a fully modular grf architecture would be required to properly be able to update grfs, that is just not going to happen
14:33<@planetmaker>designing newgrf architecture anew would allow that, yes
14:33<@planetmaker>But that's just not on
14:33<Rubidium>disabling based on the existance of others is the biggest cause of mayhem
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14:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but what if existing vehicle grf X disables itself when vehicle grf Y is loaded?
14:33<andythenorth>one newgrf disables another?
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>then adding one grf removes another
14:33<@planetmaker>you do that yourself
14:33<@planetmaker>i.e. with firs
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>leading to stuff like vehicles on wrong railtype
14:34<andythenorth>planetmaker: but FIRS is not a vehicle grf ;) I was very specific in picking vehicles...
14:34<@planetmaker>every pikka newgrf does
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: your theory is flawed
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14:34<@Alberth>industries are just as deep in the core game structure, if not deeper
14:34<bodis>so do you boys and girls keep playing much longer past 2050?
14:35*Alberth stops around 1980 usually
14:35<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: theoretically flawed, or empirically flawed?
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: adding NARS2 to a game with ECS does horrible things
14:35<@planetmaker>andythenorth, add NARS. Play.
14:35<@peter1138>people seem to associate "newgrf" with "new graphics"
14:35<@planetmaker>Then add another trainset. Boom
14:35<bodis>Alberth, why?
14:35<andythenorth>NARS 2 does horrible things because it abuses a cargo slot?
14:35<@Alberth>bodis: end of the day, usually
14:35<@planetmaker>it just doesn't like ohter train grfs
14:36<@peter1138>how about disabling the ability to disable other sets... ;)
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes. but people will think "but it's just a vehicle grf"
14:36<@planetmaker>or engine pool enabled or so
14:36<@planetmaker>I might have mixed that up. But the principle is the same
14:36<andythenorth>I think the problem isn't newgrf spec
14:36<@planetmaker>it very much is
14:36<andythenorth>the problem is vehicle sets designed pre-engine pool
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14:36<andythenorth>and the bad habits of some authors (sometimes well intentioned)
14:37<@Alberth>bodis: I'd like to build infra structure from scratch, after about 30 years, I have connected the major things
14:37<@peter1138>engine pool is a mis-feature!
14:37<@planetmaker>thus the current solution is the only viable, andythenorth
14:37<@planetmaker>it's indeed the newgrf authors' fault
14:37<bodis>heh i see
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: wrong. "multipool" is :p
14:38<@peter1138>oh yeah, whatever "multipool" ever was
14:38<bodis>ok gonna get some rail down
14:38<@Alberth>andythenorth: newgrf is not developed with removal in mind
14:38<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: kate totally failed on indenting code, apparantly they removed all configurations for that and tried to autodetect spaces/tabs from the previous line, which obviously fails then the previous line is not indented at all. and kate hat like a 10% change of crashing when saving a file (luckily actually after saving)
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14:38<andythenorth>yarp - I'm not even thinking about removal
14:39<@Terkhen>could this be fixed for the next version of the specs? :P
14:39<@planetmaker>adding equals removal as self-disable is triggered by other grf's presence theoretically
14:39<@Alberth>disabling self *is* removal
14:39<andythenorth>those grfs are wrong
14:39<@peter1138>how to make removal work: remove all vehicles/stations/industries/houses that come from the removed grfs
14:39<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: konsole totally failed with some keyboard stuff i do not remember correctly, and it keeped on focussing the tabs instead of the actualy console, buf i forgot most of the issues
14:39<andythenorth>vehicles / stations / objects should all be addition-safe
14:39<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: but again, i have no idea whether that got better in the last 1.5 or 2 years
14:39<Rubidium>peter1138: and all vehicles / houses that depend on the cargos provided by said NewGRF
14:39<andythenorth>otherwise the grf is broken (imo - I vary from specs)
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i think that focus thing was solved
14:39<@peter1138>stations were actually designed to be addition/removal safe
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i actually remember that one, i was annoyed as well
14:40<@peter1138>apart from that bit that stops the tile being traversable
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14:40<@peter1138>Rubidium, yes, as well :)
14:40<@planetmaker>andythenorth, that's only viable, if you disallow ANY check for other newgrfs
14:40<@planetmaker>which also breaks things
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14:40<@peter1138>how about: you can add/remove newgrfs, BUT ALL YOUR STUFF WILL BE WIPED FROM THE MAP, MUWAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHACOUGH
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: but that is because someone was too cheap to spend a bit on the map array, that is not primarily a newgrf flaw
14:41<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: meanwhile i switched to debian, which has gnome 2 by default, which was good enough till now. geany is comparable nice as kde 3 kate, and i got used to the console, though it is not as good as kde 3
14:41<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, yeah i was :D
14:41<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, i had intended to, too :p
14:41<andythenorth>why should a vehicle grf be disabling in presence of other grfs?
14:41<andythenorth>probably (a) because author says so
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14:41<andythenorth>or (b) something to do with base costs etc that used to not be grf-local
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: because the grf spec allows it
14:42<andythenorth>specs can be adjusted :P
14:42<@Alberth>but existing newgrfs cannot
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>you can easily add to specs, but not remove
14:42<Rubidium>yeah, but *when* will you drop support for the previous formats?
14:42<Rubidium>till then it will have to stay as it is
14:42<andythenorth>legacy support :P
14:42<@Terkhen>andythenorth: prepare a new version of the specs with add/removal compatibility, convince every author of every set to update to the new specs :)
14:43<@peter1138>let's drop newgrf
14:43<andythenorth>much less work
14:43<@peter1138>newini ftw
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: immediately only allow grf version 8 ;)
14:43*Alberth does thumbs up to peter1138
14:43<andythenorth>use xml :P
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>that line was to be expected :p
14:43<@peter1138>newini will be text based, including the images
14:44<@Alberth>file format does not help
14:44<@Alberth>ascii art only :)
14:44<@peter1138>xpm :D
14:44<@peter1138>needs to be compiled into the game, heheh
14:44<@Alberth>nice, we even have colour :p
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14:45<@Alberth>who needs a config file, just fix the source :p
14:45<@peter1138>also it will have 3d models, smooth curves, 9001 tracks per tile, cliffs, underground stuff, AND save the children
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>and all vehicle sets builtin!
14:46<@Terkhen>you should go help with p1sim then
14:46*Alberth bets on p1sim
14:46<Rubidium>peter1138: 3d is lame... we *need* 4d models... after all, they must animate!
14:46<@Terkhen>except for the save the children stuff, IIRC that's not on p1sim specs :P
14:46<@peter1138>oh shiiiiiiiiiiiit
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>12D to be upwards-compatible with string theory ;)
14:47<Prof_Frink>peter1138: Will it fix global warming and bring back the unicorns?
14:47<andythenorth>was it quiet here until I turned up?
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>better: arbitrary-D to have 3D as a special case :p
14:47<@peter1138>it will have pink fluffy unicorns dancing on rainbows
14:47<@Terkhen>andythenorth: quite, you are great at starting conversations :P
14:48<andythenorth>who adds grfs to running games? any +1s?
14:48*andythenorth +1
14:48<frosch123>if it has no undo knob, i am not going to buy it
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14:49<Rubidium>oh... yes, everything must be quantum entangled so we can calculate all scenarios and then the best scenario is shown to the user
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14:50<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I usually notice early and just restart
14:50<@Terkhen>I have changed ogfx+ landscape parameters a few times, though
14:50<Rubidium>and as we have all states at the same time, "undoing" is just a trivial bit
14:50*Eddi|zuHause notes that there are too few mathematicians around to appreciate the joke
14:50<andythenorth>with canadian theme pack, forgetting to add a grf will be a non-issue
14:51<@planetmaker>allow only one grf ;-)
14:51<andythenorth>I was thinking that
14:51<@planetmaker>and then a plug-in structure for grfs
14:51<andythenorth>parameters to turn things on and off :P
14:51<frosch123>andythenorth: just encapsulate everything in newgrf.cpp in a single class with very strict interfaces (i.e. without interacting with the rest of the game via global variables)
14:52<andythenorth>all.grf is even better
14:52<frosch123>then you can pre-load&activate grfs without starting a game
14:52<frosch123>i.e. you can check everything in the main menu grf configuration
14:52<frosch123>you could even display a list of what vehicles or industries each grf provides
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14:53<andythenorth>I have some sympathy for players in this :|
14:53<andythenorth>especially for things like patchy cargo support by vehicle grfs
14:53<@planetmaker>sympathy for a goal doesn't mean the previous path was good
14:53<andythenorth>you get 50 years into a game and find eGRVTS doesn't support alcohol
14:54<andythenorth>I didn't say we should go back ;)
14:54<andythenorth>just that I think we did it wrong
14:54<andythenorth>I don't know yet what is better though
14:54<@planetmaker>you argued all the time for that ;-)
14:54<andythenorth>no, read back
14:54<andythenorth>or do you mean I argued to forbid changing?
14:54<andythenorth>which I did very strongly
14:54<andythenorth>I was wrong
14:54<@planetmaker>no, you argued to allow (again) the (old) way of changing
14:55<@planetmaker>disallowing that was right.
14:55<andythenorth>well I didn't intend to argue that
14:55<@planetmaker>Now it needs a new way, which cannot fail
14:55<@planetmaker>thus the path so far is all correct.
14:55<@Terkhen>but with the current specs I don't think that a new way is possible
14:56<@planetmaker>only very very limited. And then also only with cutting a bit off the specs.
14:56<andythenorth>so there might be a way there
14:56<frosch123>you could very well check on game start, whether there will every be a vehicle of each type available to transport every cargo
14:56<andythenorth>but another way - why do they want to change grfs anyway?
14:56<@planetmaker>there certainly is *some* way *somewhere*.
14:56<@planetmaker>But it's definitely not a paved way
14:56<andythenorth>what is the case for add / remove?
14:57<@Terkhen>frosch123: that's a good idea
14:57<@planetmaker>Terkhen, frosch123 it has some flaws though ;-)
14:57<@planetmaker>the alcohol wagon on maglev which only appears in May 2053 only to disappear in July 2053
14:58<frosch123>but i really hope, some day we can load grfs in the main menu without applying them to the title game, so everything can be checked before starting the game
14:58<frosch123>planetmaker: that is obviously no sane vehicle set :)
14:58<@planetmaker>but such check still would be better than none
14:58<@planetmaker>frosch123, incomplete or intended as add-on only?
14:59<@planetmaker>like "ultra modern super-duper flying railcars" - and then people will still wonder why they have no steam engine and wagons in 1492
14:59<frosch123>a set like dbset which deprecates vehicles (when wagonspeed is disabled), is just broken
14:59<andythenorth>apart from cargo support, why screw with grfs?
14:59<@planetmaker>but that's layer 8
15:00<@Alberth>andythenorth: I miss my bridge set, you upgraded firs while I play, I failed to load a tram set, I cannot transport something 15 years into the game, etc
15:01<@Alberth>hmm, is there a newgrf with steam engines all the way to 2000+ ?
15:01<TWerkhoven>tropic refurb set
15:01<frosch123>iirc ukrs has futuristic steamengines, introduced in 2030 which go 300+ km/h or so :pü
15:02<@Alberth>I'd like to play longer with 'normal' steam engines
15:02<frosch123>play with daylength :p
15:03<frosch123>i guess that is actually the only reason people play with daylength, because they want to play longer with steam engines
15:03<@planetmaker>Alberth, that's one of the main reasons - too fast passage of time - that I always keep all vehicles ever invented
15:03<andythenorth>beb - baby sleep time
15:03<@Alberth>that would be one way, but having a newgrf that keeps steam much longer work too
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: definitely one of the most valid reasons
15:03<@Alberth>planetmaker: but with breakdowns, that is not much fun
15:04<frosch123>Alberth: alternatively play on a 128x256 map, which you can fill in 50 years (1900-1950)
15:04<@Alberth>how can I play longer than? :p
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>that's what i did for my yacd-game
15:04<@planetmaker>Alberth, that's a setting which - to me - very very very very very seldomly is rated as 'fun'
15:04<frosch123>Alberth: if vehicles do not expire, their reliability does not drop
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15:05<@Alberth>frosch123: interesting
15:05<@Alberth>must try that
15:05<frosch123>would be quite pointless with dozen of engines with 25% reliability :p
15:05<@Alberth>planetmaker: well, it prevents the possibility to push your tracks full yeah
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see the sense in "keep all vehicles"
15:07<@planetmaker>Alberth, yes. But mostly it just jams the whole thing... it can be worked around, but even the best maintenance with reduced break downs has them break down every so often.
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>why would i pick a lousy steam engine when way better diesel and electric engines are available (for reasonable price)
15:07<@planetmaker>congesting the whole network
15:08<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, mostly as time passes too quickly
15:08<@planetmaker>and I don't want to upgrade to monorail and maglev
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>pick a sensible vehicle set :p
15:08<@Alberth>planetmaker: thus you have to build more tracks and reoruting options
15:09<@Alberth>ie 2 lanes from one end to the other end will not work
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15:10<@planetmaker>yes, I know.
15:11<V453000>someone plays with breakdowns? :DD
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>i certainly don't
15:12<@Alberth>I don't know about someone, but I do, yes :)
15:12<@planetmaker>Alberth, but mostly it leads to empty, inflated networks - just to compensate for breakdowns. And then it still doesn't really help
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>not since i found that option :p
15:13<@Alberth>planetmaker: probably it does, but i have around 100 trains or so usually, not very much
15:13*frosch123 plays with reduced breakdowns
15:13<frosch123>no breakdowns are boring
15:13<frosch123>it completely removes the randomisation of engines statistics, you can just pick the fastest one
15:14<frosch123>without having to pick the most reliable one
15:15<@planetmaker>yes... but even red. breakdowns are not really uncommon.
15:16<@Alberth>it is just a matter of what you want. I am not bothered by a breakdown every now and then. I can imagine that if you want good flow, they are deadly to you
15:17<@Alberth>not to mention stuff like time tables, which fail to work :)
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>suggestion: add pathfinder penalty for "broken down train"
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>(or: "train with lower (temporary) max speed")
15:18<@Alberth>but the path finder does route around other trains already
15:18<@planetmaker>I'd not mind them - iff there was a possibility to deal with them than to simply accept relatively long block of a track
15:18<@planetmaker>Alberth, yes... but broken down indeed is a more severe penalty :-)
15:19<@planetmaker>as is actually a train waiting at a red signal
15:19<@planetmaker>over a driving one
15:19<@Alberth>I agree it is quite severe
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15:20<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: but it should not route around _all_ other trains
15:20<@Alberth>why not? then it uses the capacity as good as possible
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: tracks with crossovers have the problem that even equally fast trains cross over because the other track is free, potentially blocking another train behind
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>thus reducing the track capacity
15:21<@planetmaker>yep. a tripple-track solution does not work
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>worst case is a two-way double track, where trains switch places constantly
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>because one overtakes the other
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>then the other overtakes the first again
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>and so on
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>totally stupid
15:22<@planetmaker>and each stops then
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>this needs more detailed pathfinder penalties, so the overtaking track is never triggered when the train ahead has equal or higher speed
15:23<@Alberth>I have quite long stretches of tracks with few cross-overs, and don't really see that problem. But perhaps it is due to the fact that my tracks are more empty
15:24<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: that is probably very difficult to accomplish
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15:26<Eddi|zuHause>there must be some (computationally) fast way to get the speed of the train occupying a trackbit
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15:31<@Alberth>I am more worried about 'overtaking track' detection.
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: that is already possible to differentiate by reverse path signal penalty
15:34<@Alberth>why would such a track always be build like that?
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>it wouldn't
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>you can also make the reserved track penalty zero, then even the curve penalty would prevent switching
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>but as long as you cannot differentiate between slower and faster trains, this does not make any sense at all
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15:38<V453000>planetmaker: rail has faster loading/unloading times than maglev without newgrfs
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: "unloading speed" != "unloading time"
15:38<@planetmaker>hm, does it?
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>"unloading time" = "unloading speed" * capacity
15:39<@planetmaker>I checked the source but didn't find the loading speed
15:39<V453000>the percentages of maglev add up by 15, percentages of rail seem to increase by 20 ... dont know if the time spent is the same
15:39<V453000>I doubt it ofc :)
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>the newgrf spec should have the default vehicle properties
15:39<@planetmaker>then the loading speed is the same. The loading time longer for maglev as capacity is larger
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>i guess it's like 5 units per step
15:40<@planetmaker>that's what I recall, too
15:40<V453000>oh I see
15:40<V453000>so there is equal "amount of cargo" per second
15:40<V453000>but maglev trains stay longer in the station
15:41<bodis>is it possible to add signals on this station so I have 2 trains entering and 2 leaving at the same time?
15:41<bodis>2 tracks on the left come in and on the right go out
15:42<andythenorth>should I try a daylength patch?
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: they have lots of quirks
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>bodis: use path signals
15:42<andythenorth>I like long games
15:42<andythenorth>but I'm not convinced that starting before about 1880 is worth it
15:43<bodis>hmm will have to see how they work
15:43<andythenorth>also I can't be arsed to make FISH and HEQS go back beyond the 1870s
15:43<andythenorth>and making FIRS do early industries well is TMWFTLB
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: put the early industries in a separate grf?
15:44<andythenorth>it's more a problem of gameplay
15:44<V453000>andythenorth: you need some very good newgrf settings for long games I think :) to have many engine-evolution
15:44<V453000>then it is fun
15:45<V453000>even like 1850-2050+
15:45<andythenorth>my recent games go 1870-2020
15:45<andythenorth>I would like them to be longer
15:45<andythenorth>in single player with YACD, there was still plenty left to do by 2020, but I was bored of the vehicles
15:46<SpComb>you're not allowed to
15:46<SpComb>just use the copy-paste patch to build faster
15:46<andythenorth>maybe I should turn 'build while paused' on
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>i turned that on out of pure annoyance because the way it was handled got changed
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16:06<@Terkhen>oops, sorry :P
16:08<@Terkhen>hi supermop
16:09<supermop>does oberhümer frequent this channel?
16:12<@Terkhen>I have never seen him here
16:12<@Terkhen>try @seen, I can't write that strange character
16:12<Twerkhoven[L]>@seen oberhümer
16:12<@DorpsGek>Twerkhoven[L]: I have not seen oberhümer.
16:13<Twerkhoven[L]>copy-paste is your friend
16:13<@planetmaker>@seen oberhumer
16:13<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: I have not seen oberhumer.
16:13<@planetmaker>@seen oberhuemer
16:13<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: I have not seen oberhuemer.
16:13<@Terkhen>TWerkhoven: it appears as a ? character to me
16:13<@planetmaker>you should get a better IRC client then
16:13<@Terkhen>only the one written by supermop
16:13<@Terkhen>I can see that ü fine
16:14<@Terkhen>� <--- but when supermop mentioned him I saw this
16:15<@Terkhen>heh, on irclogs they look the same, but not here in my client :P
16:16<@Alberth>here as well
16:17<@planetmaker>they look the same here.
16:17<@Terkhen>Ï dïscövërëd thät Ï cän wrïtë ït töö
16:18<@planetmaker>there's no ü :-P
16:18<@Terkhen>ÿ <-- which language uses this?
16:19<Prof_Frink>Yes, but can you do an umlaut on an n?
16:20<@Terkhen>heh, internet has made me stupid :O
16:20<@Terkhen>of course I can write it, it is used in spanish too but no one ever bothers with it
16:20<@planetmaker>let me guess... Spanish uses it, too?
16:20<@Terkhen>only in a few "corner cases" though :P
16:21<@planetmaker>like ß probably ;-)
16:23<__ln__>but an *umlaut* on n?
16:23<__ln__>n with two dots on it
16:23<@planetmaker>also a trema doesn't make sense.
16:23<@Terkhen>ñ <-- I can do something similar :)
16:24<supermop>always good to see discussion of diacritics
16:28<frosch123>more amazing than letters with stuff above, are letters without stuff above, like "ı"
16:29<Eddi|zuHause><Terkhen> ÿ <-- which language uses this? <-- iirc dutch uses that
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>as an i-j ligature
16:29<Twerkhoven[L]>but without the dots
16:29<Twerkhoven[L]>when typing it as a single character usually
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>"simplified typing" is not what i meant
16:31<Hirundo>Dutch i-j is typed and written as ij, not ÿ
16:34<__ln__>ÿ without dots is y
16:35<Twerkhoven[L]>doesn't stop some ppl from using it as ij though
16:36<andythenorth>saw that advertised when I was in vegas ;)
16:36<andythenorth>we went for a helicopter ride in grand canyon instead
16:36<Bilge>Does auto-renew and auto-replace continue to work if you log off from a multiplayer game?
16:37<andythenorth>this one is a bit closer to me
16:37<@Terkhen>the gran canyon ride sounds more impressive :P
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>Bilge: yes
16:37<@Terkhen>Bilge: it should, yes
16:37<@Terkhen>andythenorth: nice :P
16:37<andythenorth>grand canyon is big
16:38<andythenorth>ottd needs cliffs :P
16:38<@Terkhen>code the grand canyon as a huge newobject :)
16:39<__ln__>grand canyon must have taken a long time to dig
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16:40<@Terkhen>millions of years I guess
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>it was only 12000 years since god created the earth
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>how could it have taken millions of years then?
16:40<@planetmaker>not rather like a bit over 5700?
16:41<andythenorth>probably more than the terraforming limit
16:41<@Terkhen>depends on the church you are visiting I guess
16:41<__ln__>the person at grand canyon national park entrance said that they had 10 feet of snow in the winter.
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16:42<@planetmaker>Terkhen, of course the one of the flying spaghetti monster ;-)
16:43<@planetmaker>oh oh... sirXY is back...
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>i had that same thought :p
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i'm fairly sure people don't believe that the world began with the israelis leaving egypt.
16:45<@Terkhen>I don't remember much about him besides being interested on that futuristic project before realizing that it was just a plan
16:46<@planetmaker>from what I just saw along the lines of "I'm disappointed that OpenTTD evolved so little in the time of my absense"... well ;-)
16:47<Rubidium>pff... churches, or rather Gods, are just easy scapegoats. Tsunami: "God's will", earthquake: "God's will", priests doing sinful things: "God's will"
16:47*andythenorth works on FIRS
16:47<andythenorth>it's fun
16:47<frosch123>the world was created by the invisible pink unicorn 20 minutes ago. the world was created including all memories predating its creation
16:47<@planetmaker>are you ill, andythenorth ? ;-)
16:48<@Alberth>Rubidium: firing nuclear weapons: no problem, God will jump in at the right time
16:48<Rubidium>Alberth: God wanted them to be fired
16:48<Chris_Booth>Rubidium: you need to watch the film, the man who sued god!
16:48<@Terkhen>planetmaker: yes, that was his attitude regarding the futuristic project too :P
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>his "futuristic project" "evolved" from basically a feature request list this long: [········] to one this long: [·················] within one year.
16:49<@Alberth>frosch123: and I was thinking it was just computing the question for the answer about life, the universe, and everything
16:50<andythenorth>I can haz improved this a bit:
16:50<andythenorth>but I need to do something about the empty tiles
16:50<andythenorth>or do I?
16:50<andythenorth>I've given it a garden and such
16:51<@Alberth>it just sells machines?
16:51<andythenorth>makes them yes
16:51<@Terkhen>more machines then :)
16:51<@Alberth>rusty junk
16:51<@Terkhen>futuristic machines
16:51<andythenorth>after 2050?
16:51<andythenorth>does it need anything?
16:51<Hirundo>Or perhaps rearrange the tiles, and remove one row of tiles from the bottom-left side
16:52<@Terkhen>a hovercrane :P
16:52<andythenorth>there are alternative layouts ;)
16:52<andythenorth>does it need fences?
16:52<andythenorth>fences just became possible
16:52<Hirundo>If there are no fences, I'm gonna 'borrow' one of those dump trucks for fun ;)
16:52<@Alberth>high ones, with junk and machine parts stacked all over the place imho
16:53<andythenorth>it makes other stuff - like metal structures and such
16:53<@Terkhen>new disaster: drunk guys steal heavy machinery from unguarded machinery shop
16:53<@Alberth>large sheets of metal would lay outside then
16:53<andythenorth>destroys farm fields + nearby houses
16:53<Chris_Booth>stacks of rust wheels
16:54<Chris_Booth>and rusty scaffold
16:54<Chris_Booth>and a big tank full of yellow paint for all the shiny JCBs
16:55<@Alberth>blue paint :)
16:55<andythenorth>CC paint :P
16:55<@planetmaker>CC-paint ;-)
16:55<andythenorth>I could just do some ground texture
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16:55<@planetmaker>some dirt tracks ;-)
16:55<andythenorth>more flowerbeds
16:55<@planetmaker>from the "test pacourt"
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16:57<Chris_Booth>you need some broken windows aswell
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16:57<Chris_Booth>from the robbery that happened lastnight :P
16:57<andythenorth>maybe that layout is not the best
16:58<andythenorth>this one is fine:
16:58<Chris_Booth>like that one andythenorth
16:58<Chris_Booth>but has a lack of smash windows yellow paint, rusty wheels and pipes
16:59*Terkhen likes that one better too
16:59<@Terkhen>it seems less empty
16:59<@peter1138>yeah, it's a bit 'clean'
16:59<andythenorth>maybe I should add dirt to the tile, like the default steel mill
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16:59<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I'd move the houses a bit more to the edge
16:59<andythenorth>a project for another day
17:00<Chris_Booth>looks like one of the factories in those Chinese ghost towns
17:00<@planetmaker>the two big ones
17:01<andythenorth>part of one of those buildings is missing
17:01*Eddi|zuHause is still of the opinion you should rather make replacements for the last "original" industries instead of endlessly fiddling with the already replaced ones
17:02<@planetmaker>and meanwhile it's possible to deprecate a layout without actually breaking savegame compatibility ;-)
17:03<supermop>if all of the dump trucks are new, why would they be rusty?
17:03<Chris_Booth>supermop: they have not been painted
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17:03<Chris_Booth>you see how long something stay shiny for when it isn't painted
17:04<Bilge>haha oh wow just cleared a massive area of land and bribed the local authority twice just to find out I still can't build another airport in that city anyway
17:05<Twerkhoven[L]>plant trees?
17:05<@planetmaker>much cheaper without any risk ;-)
17:06<supermop>if i ran the dump truck factory, I would not assemble the truck and park it outside until it was painted
17:06<supermop>saves you having to disassemble and clean it before spraying
17:06<@Alberth>but the parts come from elsewhere and are not painted yet
17:07<supermop>buy them from a supplier that does paint them
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17:07<@Alberth>you paint after assembly :)
17:08<supermop>also in FIRS the machine shop takes delivery of raw metal, rather than chassis and shovels
17:08<@Alberth>customers have such weird colour requirements :p
17:08<Bilge>oh my god, and again
17:09<Bilge>Spending millions and millions and levelling land and bribing just to be cockblocked anyway
17:09<@Alberth>I don't think the higher powers are well emulated in the game
17:09<supermop>can I get my HEQs for cheap if they messed up the paint color?
17:09<@planetmaker>supermop, sure. Even for free :-P
17:10<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: the existing industries are already drawn :P
17:10<andythenorth>why is redrawing them a priority?
17:10<andythenorth>(original ones)
17:10*Alberth considers an HEQs extension that gives weird coloured vehicles if it gets sold below some price
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>because they are the wrong style
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17:11<supermop>hmm 2nd hand equipment
17:12<Chris_Booth>2nd hand trains would be nice
17:12<Chris_Booth>or rented trains
17:12<Chris_Booth>for startup
17:12<Chris_Booth>that feature would take a lot of coding though
17:12<Chris_Booth>and I don't ever expect to see it in the game
17:13<supermop>if a big company buys tons of class X locomotive, that class becomes incrementally cheaper for all
17:13<supermop>due to it being mass produced
17:13<Bilge>Can someone rewrite this because this section doesn't say what the fixed value is normally or where to find the advanced setting in the options
17:14<supermop>if big company sells all of its class Xs after 10 years, maybe the other companies can buy some rebuilt second hand class x for cheap
17:14<supermop>forgetting that idea all together:
17:15<supermop>within one company, in the vehicle list
17:15<supermop>have a category for decommissioned vehicles
17:16<supermop>so you can decommission a train instead of selling it,
17:16<supermop>the recommision it for a lower price than selling it
17:16<supermop>basically a cloud depot
17:16<supermop>that lets you build trains out of all of your currently unused stock
17:17<@planetmaker>mv Bilge someone
17:17<+glx>(it's a wiki)
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17:24<Bilge>If you give me the information I'll rewrite it myself
17:24<Chris_Booth>Bilge: what is wrong with it?
17:24<Chris_Booth>all the info is in the game
17:24<Chris_Booth>play it find out about it
17:24<Chris_Booth>then write it
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17:29<@Terkhen>good night
17:31<andythenorth>by Terkhen
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17:32*andythenorth -> bedtime
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17:36<Bilge>You can't click on a plane in flight to copy its orders
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17:38<Bilge>Nor can you click it on the ground
17:39<Bilge>You just can't copy a plane's orders
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17:53<supermop>click in the vehicle list
17:53<bodis>trying to fund a farm in arctic climate but get the message that site is unsuitable
17:54<bodis>are there criteria where farms can be placed?
17:54<@Yexo>below the snowline IIRC
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>"Sarkozy couldn't shut off the nuclear power stations even if he wanted to"
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>"he wouldn't be able to reach the switch"
17:55<bodis>tried placing it on grass but it aint happening
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>you use any newgrfs?
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18:00<Eddi|zuHause>is there enough flat area around?
18:00<bodis>yep just leveled 12x12 square on every level
18:01<bodis>still unsauitable
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18:02<bodis>does taking loads of food to towns make them grow quicker?
18:04<bodis>so why when you open town page it says needs food for more growth
18:04<bodis>or is it small towns
18:04<@Yexo>it needs 1 ton of food per month for any growth at all
18:04<@Yexo>and that is only for towns above the snowline
18:12<bodis>ok good read
18:12<bodis>thanks Yexo
18:12<bodis>sleep now
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18:51<Bilge>Yexo: is this a know bug? It seems you can share orders but not copy orders with aircraft
18:51<@Yexo>you can't? that's strange
18:52<@Yexo>it's not known to me
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>not to me either
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>you can't copy orders if you already have an order
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>and you can't copy orders if the vehicle cannot go there (like air plane to heliport)
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20:44<r0w>i'm a newbie, and i'm having a small problem with bus, i've like 1'000 thousand ppl waiting
20:44<r0w>how can i reduce this number ?
20:45<r0w>i'd like to have this 1'000 ppl on the airport :d
20:56<Bilge>Yexo: still here?
20:59<DoubleYou>r0w, that happens a lot :)
21:00<r0w>is there something to do ?
21:00<r0w>i really hate bus :d
21:00<DoubleYou>i'm not sure about the internals, but i think it has something to do with how often the bus visits and how often an airplane visits the station (which is commonly much rarer)
21:01<DoubleYou>i haven't really found a solution to it either, but you could combine the bus and airport in a single route
21:01<DoubleYou>also, probably because the bus station is in the middle of the city and the airport is more out, the catchment of the bus station takes many large buildings while the airport takes less
21:02<DoubleYou>that's possible too, transfer passengers by bus to the airport
21:02<DoubleYou>still need to transfer all those 1000 passengers :) which needs quite a lot of buses
21:02-!-Katje_ is now known as Katje
21:03<Bilge>Is anyone aware of this exploit:
21:03<r0w>if I delete my bus station will the passenger at the airport increase ?
21:05<r0w>going to look
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---Logclosed Thu Jun 09 00:00:51 2011