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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-06-09

---Logopened Thu Jun 09 00:00:51 2011
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01:49<@Terkhen>good morning
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02:32<@Terkhen>anyone knows if that BuildOTTD project still works?
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02:54<@planetmaker>iirc not
02:58<@Terkhen> <--- it is still being listed here as a valid option for compiling OpenTTD, but since it does not work on Vista (and I assume it does not work in 7 either) I can't test
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04:24<Ammler>Terkhen: afaik, it doesn't work since the new openttd CF with
04:26<Ammler>also the tool should be on sourceforge ready to fork ;-)
04:27<@Terkhen>I'll remove it from the "how can I compile" page then
04:27<Ammler>hmm, not sure, but there might be a modified version on tt-forums
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04:30<@Terkhen>the last reference in the forums to a successful build using BuildOTTD is from 2009
04:31<Ammler>wow, those spam bots got very clever: (or is that manual spam?)
04:31<@Terkhen>Ammler: they copy posts from the same thread
04:31<Ammler>ah, I see
04:32<Ammler>I added a simple antispam rule to our wiki: just block every content with \.com :-)
04:33<Ammler>since then, no spam anymore
04:33<@planetmaker>I cannot link to then :-( :-P
04:33<Ammler>well, if they pay, I can make a exception :-)
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04:37<Eddi|zuHause>why did i read "openttd.exe" the first time?
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06:07<Bilge>Follow cam doesn't work unless you're fully zoomed in
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07:36<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes google really scares me:
08:07<welshdragon>poor Eddi|zuHause
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>welshdragon: have you actually understood what it said?
08:08<welshdragon>nope :P
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08:10<@planetmaker>I really really wonder where that suggestion comes from
08:10<welshdragon>i'm still trying to understand why my server doesn't read the openttd.cfg file in ./openttd
08:10<Vikthor>That's gonna be some fuel for conspiracy theretics :p
08:10<welshdragon>* /.openttd
08:10<@planetmaker>welshdragon, "how many cucumber were eliminated the last days?". Google suggests "how many Turkish were eliminated the last days"
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>welshdragon: usually if you also have one in pwd
08:11<welshdragon>cheers Eddi|zuHause
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08:14<@planetmaker>hm, today's google allows to play guitar :D
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08:14<welshdragon>it was because I installed openttd in /root
08:15<@planetmaker> !
08:16*planetmaker suggests to cure that with a heart-lightening "rm -rf /"
08:16<welshdragon>just going to move the config file
08:19<Bilge>Don't you mean, light-hearted
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: that doesn't work on modern distributions
08:20<@planetmaker>what changed?
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>try it ;)
08:20<@planetmaker>I know that this is an old one. And I'll be damned
08:20<Bilge>Do servers always reset once they reach a certain date or is it just the one I'm playing on?
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08:21<@planetmaker>it's yours
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>it needs something like --no-protect-root or similar
08:21<@planetmaker>but actually sensible :-)
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08:25*peter1138 plays the googletar
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>is it supposed to make sound?
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't work here
08:28<@peter1138>either on mouseover or keyboard if you press the keyboard icon
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>weird, sound works in firefox, but not in konqueror
08:31<+glx>blame the config I'd say
08:32<Eddi|zuHause>next problem: how do i play half-tones ;)
08:34<@peter1138>quite :S
08:35<+glx> <-- so true (and not only in NYC)
08:36<welshdragon>seen that on Reddit, glx
08:38<@peter1138>so many set ups :(
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>oh, and google has no clue about different keyboard layouts...
08:41<welshdragon>Does it matter that my openttd.cfg file for 1.1.1 has [version]
08:41<welshdragon>version_string = IS2.1.1
08:41<welshdragon>version_number = 100048EB in it?
08:46<welshdragon>it works
08:47<welshdragon>now all I need to do is set graphics
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08:51<@Yexo>welshdragon: that version in your openttd.cfg should be overwritten as soon as you close openttd
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09:01<JVassie>anyone aware of the best bridgetset to work with NA roads?
09:01<JVassie>which will ideally work with nutracks too
09:03<V453000>some special version of total bridges
09:04<V453000>there are multiple 1.11s even
09:05<JVassie>happen to have a download link handy pls?
09:10<JVassie>V453000, does that version work with nutracks as well?
09:10<V453000>as far as I know it does
09:11<V453000>and no, I do unfortunately not have a link where to download it
09:11<V453000>maybe google it, it is on the tt forum
09:11<V453000>not sure if that is the correct version though
09:11<TrueBrain>GENERAL NOTICE: will be a bit slow; we are doing some massive I/O operation on it, while sending out a lot of bytes over the network :)
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09:14<JVassie>dotn worry found it
09:14<@Terkhen>hi Belugas
09:16<JVassie>one final question V453000 please, shoudl the bridge grf go before or after the road/rail grfs?
09:20<@Belugas>hello Terkhen :)
09:24<JVassie>seems to work fien with nutracks
09:24<JVassie>tbrs before nutracks in the list
09:25<JVassie>with na roads it always seems to draw them in the modern style
09:25<JVassie>before or after inthe list
09:25<JVassie>but not a huge problem
09:26<JVassie>thansk for the help :)
09:28<@planetmaker>JVassie, afaik roads can be only one style or the other...
09:28<JVassie>the bridges are never shown in the old dirt style though is what im saying
09:28<JVassie>the normal roads change
09:28<JVassie>just not on the bridges
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09:34<V453000>if you _need_ to start playing before 1950 (which is when the roads are dirt), you can just change the roads with a parameter to be always bitumen
09:34<@Belugas>cool way to celebrate Les Paul :) Thanks Google
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09:36<welshdragon>how do I find out (on a server game) which directory OpenTTD is looking for the config file?
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09:37<@Yexo>welshdragon: by reading readme.txt section 4.2
09:38<welshdragon>right. /.openttd doesn't exist
09:38*welshdragon tries that
09:39<@Yexo>it's ~/.openttd, not /.openttd
09:39<welshdragon>yes, i know
09:39<welshdragon>but it still didn't exits
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09:40<welshdragon>and anyway, the config loads fine
09:40<welshdragon>I just can't get the server to load the newgrf'd
09:40<@Yexo>the newgrfs are specified in your config file?
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09:41<@Yexo>what is the exact location of the newgrfs and can you copy one line of your config file?
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09:42<welshdragon>ottdc_grfpack/8_vehicles/road_vehicles/grvts/egrvts.grf =
09:42<welshdragon>i've added them to [newgrf-static]
09:42<@peter1138>"cool", you've made ~ your openttd config directory
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09:43<welshdragon>that's in /home/markjones ;)
09:43<@Yexo>welshdragon: ~ IS /home/markjones
09:43<@planetmaker>and... egrvts CANNOT be made static
09:43<@planetmaker>openttd will ignore that
09:43<@Yexo>that, and openttd will ignore your home directory as search path
09:44<@Yexo>so move your data directory to /home/markjones/.openttd/data/
09:45<@Yexo>having static grfs as server is stupid anyway, since "static" means "for this client only", on other words not for anyone who joins your server
09:45<@Yexo>for a server you either want to put them in "[newgrf]" or not at all
09:45<welshdragon>ah, right
09:45*welshdragon edits the config
09:48<Bilge>Yexo are you aware of this exploit:
09:49<Bilge>Why is this allowed?
09:49<@planetmaker>why not?
09:49<@planetmaker>you're not forced to use it.
09:49<@Yexo>because nobody has find a way yet to disallow that via code
09:49<@Yexo>and most servers disallow it via the rules
09:49<@planetmaker>And you can set station spread to a small value
09:49<Bilge>Just decrease the range on station connection
09:50<welshdragon>ok, content_download is now .openttd
09:50<@planetmaker>yes. Then just do that Bilge
09:50<@planetmaker>make the max station size 6 and it'd poof gone
09:50<welshdragon>it still can't see the files
09:50<welshdragon>(i did edit the config file)
09:50<Bilge>I didn't realise it was a setting
09:50<@Yexo>welshdragon: if you start openttd with -d grf=5, do you get output about any newgrfs?
09:51<welshdragon>after map generation I get this: ERROR: Could not start the server
09:52<@Yexo>and the lines before or after that?
09:53<@planetmaker>pastebin is a wonderful invention
09:53<welshdragon>I get that ^
09:57*welshdragon watches the channel fall silent...
09:57<@Yexo>sorry, no idea how that could happen
09:58<welshdragon>I KNOW
09:58<welshdragon>ok, content_download is now .openttd
09:59<welshdragon>^ I did that
09:59<welshdragon>it broke :/
09:59<@Yexo>is there any content in that apart from a data/ directory?
09:59<@planetmaker>errm... why the heck do you wildly rename or symlink dirs?
09:59<@Yexo>an openttd.cfg perhaps?
10:00<@Yexo>planetmaker: he had content_download in $HOME, and user data inside it
10:00<@Yexo>so in this case that rename was correct
10:02<@Yexo>welshdragon: do you at least see a lot of lines starting with "dgb: [grf]" in your output before those map generation lines?
10:02<@planetmaker>sounds strange enough
10:03<welshdragon>Yexo, no
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10:03<welshdragon>what i pasted is what the console outputs
10:04<@Yexo>that was not the complete output, the first lines of "Map generation percentage complete" are also missing
10:06<welshdragon> is the complete output
10:06<@Yexo>that is not complete either
10:06<@Yexo>still missing lines at the start
10:08-!-Belugas [~belugas@] has quit [Quit: On snow, everyone can follow your traces]
10:08<welshdragon>yes, but this terminal cuts them off
10:09<@Yexo>so redirect the output to a file, for example by using tee
10:09<@Yexo>openttd -d grf=5 -D | tee output.txt
10:10<@Yexo>oh, add 2>&1 before the pipe, the output goes to stderr, not stdout
10:10<@peter1138>just delete everything
10:10<@peter1138>and give up
10:12<welshdragon>no, I don't want to give u[
10:12<welshdragon>i paid for this server god damn it
10:13<dihedral>anybody with a spare vmware essentials license key for me?
10:14<dihedral>uh - a Sacro! hello
10:14<Sacro>hello dihedral
10:15<@planetmaker>and can only trade with a VMWare 5 key
10:15<welshdragon>Yexo, found it: dbg: [net] getaddrinfo for hostname "grf=5", port 3979, address family either IPv4 or IPv6 and socket type tcp failed: Name or service not known
10:16<Bilge>Isn't it a bug that you can only follow cam at maximum zoom level?
10:16<@Yexo>welshdragon: what is the exactly commandline you use to start openttd?
10:16<@planetmaker>Bilge, no
10:16<welshdragon>openttd -D grf=5 2>&1 | tee debug.txt
10:17<@Yexo>Bilge: when zooming out more has to be drawn, so it's slower. When moving around it becomes even more slow
10:17<@Yexo>welshdragon: you missed the "-d" before "grf=5"
10:17<@Yexo>try: openttd -D -d grf=5 2>&1 | tee debug.txt
10:17<@Yexo>-d and -D are different options
10:18<Sacro>How strange...
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10:18*Sacro trolls
10:20*welshdragon trolls Sacro's mum
10:23<@planetmaker>welshdragon, you might consider to use a newer version of OpenGFX. Though it doesn't matter much for a server.
10:23<@Yexo>welshdragon: could you retry with "misc=3" instead of "grf=5"?
10:23<@planetmaker>or net?
10:23<@Yexo>hmm, actually misc=4
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10:24<@Yexo>that should print all search paths
10:24<@Yexo>planetmaker: first problem is "dbg: [grf] Scan complete, found 0 files"
10:24<@planetmaker>he, missed that :-)
10:25<@planetmaker>though it found some files before, obviously
10:27<@Yexo>welshdragon: you're starting openttd as root, that is a very bad idea
10:28<@Yexo>and I suppose that is also why it previously did find the grfs in /home/user/content_download, as that was not really your user dir (at least not while logged in as root)
10:28<@Yexo>if your config file is in /root/.openttd/openttd.cfg you need to move it to /home/<yourusername>/.openttd/openttd.cfg
10:29<welshdragon>the only thing in root is the debug file from openttd
10:29<@planetmaker>what does whois tell you?
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10:30<@planetmaker>if it's (still) root: first create a proper user
10:30<welshdragon>i'll try as my user
10:30<@planetmaker>avoid being root.... generally
10:31<@planetmaker>especially never start non-system programmes as root
10:31<@planetmaker>then... when you logged in as marc (or whatever), go to your home dir:
10:31<Chris_Booth>where is the fun in that?
10:32<@planetmaker>then unzip your openttd in its own sub folder
10:32<@planetmaker>then put the openttd.cfg in ~/.openttd
10:32<@planetmaker>the base set files in ~/.openttd/data
10:32<@planetmaker>then try to start the server again
10:33<@planetmaker>or... better don't put any openttd.cfg anywhere
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10:50<@Yexo>welshdragon: did you get it to run?
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10:53<welshdragon>Yexo, my user isn't in the sudoers file
10:53<welshdragon>so I'm trying to figure that out now :)
10:53<@Yexo>it doesn't need to be
10:54<@Yexo>you should be able to start openttd as normal user
10:54<welshdragon>yes. I need to install openttd, however
10:54<welshdragon>(I got the .deb)
10:54<@Yexo>just log in as root
10:54<@Yexo>install openttd, log out, log in as normal user
10:54<@Yexo>run openttd
10:55<@planetmaker>welshdragon: actually for a server I do not recommend to actually install it
10:55<@planetmaker>Not that it doesn't work. But updates to a new version take more time ;-)
10:56<@planetmaker>and there's no need to install it anyway
10:56<@planetmaker>and you can more easily have several versions alongside eachother if you do not install them
10:56<Ammler>yes, use generic linux
10:58<welshdragon>so, what do you recommend. planetmaker?
10:59<@planetmaker>taking the binary from a normal zip and just unziping it into whatever dir
11:00<welshdragon>doing that now
11:00<@planetmaker>we keep them as subdirs in our openttd user's home dir
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11:11<welshdragon>Yexo, it now just ignores the newgrf's
11:11<welshdragon>sec, I'll pastebin the output
11:14<Ammler>where are your newgrfs saved?
11:15<@planetmaker>and who has read permissions to them?
11:15<@Yexo>probably the path in your config file is wrong
11:15<welshdragon>they are in /home/markjones/openttd-1.1.1-linux-generic-i686/data
11:16<welshdragon>permissions are 755
11:17<welshdragon>hang on
11:17<welshdragon>i might have sussed it
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11:17<Ammler>would be wrong location anyway
11:18<Ammler>should be in ~/.openttd/data
11:18<Ammler>(not wrong, just not recommend)
11:19<welshdragon>it's looking in usr/share/games/openttd
11:19<welshdragon>perhaps, the grf's should be in there?
11:19<Ammler>yep, also
11:19<Ammler>no, that is just for root
11:19<Ammler>you can't write there
11:20<Ammler>even root should not write to /usr, just /usr/local :-)
11:22<welshdragon>so, it is config file error?
11:22<Ammler>as you have read teh readme, you know, there are around 4 different locations, openttd does search for newgrfs
11:22<Ammler>where is your cfg?
11:22<Ammler>I guess, it doesn't matter, though
11:23<Ammler>location of cfg just matters for save location, afaik
11:24*welshdragon shrugs
11:24<Ammler>you have newgrf list in the cfg?
11:24<Ammler>maybe those paths are wrong...
11:25<welshdragon>yes, the newgrf's are listed in the config
11:25<@planetmaker>and where's the cfg?
11:25<Ammler>I guess, you can just strip the paths and use filename only
11:26<@planetmaker>also... intially I suggest to just start with an empty newgrf list
11:26<@planetmaker>to see that the server runs at all.
11:26<welshdragon>it does run
11:26<Ammler>well, that I would assume as he said, it runs without newgrfs
11:27<JVassie>I did earlier today, now I have approx. 45 newgrfs in there
11:28<Ammler>also good idea is to configure game locally and then load the save on the server
11:30<Ammler>just be sure to have same (=md5sum) newgrfs in ~/.openttd/data
11:34<welshdragon>right, now the server won't start
11:34<welshdragon>dbg: [net] getaddrinfo for hostname "misc", port 3979, address family either IPv4 or IPv6 and socket type tcp failed: Name or service not known
11:35<@Yexo>you forgot -d again
11:35<welshdragon>no, that was just standard openttd -D
11:35<welshdragon>(it failed on)
11:36<Rubidium>you forgot it a previous time
11:36<@Yexo>edit your config file to remove some line in [server] that ends with "= misc"
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11:43<welshdragon>i found it
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12:14<welshdragon>can I disable all the [dbg] output?
12:14<@planetmaker>don't use "-d whatever" as switch
12:15<welshdragon>it automatically does it when i run Openttd -D
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12:15<+glx>welshdragon: debuglevel net0 in the console IIRC
12:15<@Terkhen>hi bodis
12:16<+glx>and you can add it to autorun.scr
12:16<+glx>or something like that
12:18<welshdragon>why do I fail at setting up a server :(
12:20<@planetmaker>hi bodis
12:21<Ammler>setup ottd server is not for uk guys
12:23<Rubidium>because it's not translated to Welsh?
12:24<Ammler>yes, s/uk/welsh/ :-)
12:25<Ammler>welshdragon: if it fails, you could start again but this time read the readme :-)
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12:27<@Yexo>welshdragon: start with "-D -d net=0"
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12:35<CIA-10>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22548 /trunk/src/ (date_type.h industry_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Name also the magic number for the lumber mill's tree cutting action (FeyFre)
12:38<frosch123>hmm what does the button of the g of todays google logo do?
12:38<welshdragon>cheers Yexo
12:38<@planetmaker>frosch123: sound?
12:39<@planetmaker>i.e. try to play guitar ;-)
12:39<frosch123>yes, but i mean the button which goes red if you press it
12:39<frosch123>it has no effect for me
12:39<welshdragon>NewGRF Mismatches
12:39<@Yexo>hovering the sings plays a sound here
12:40<welshdragon>so I guess that fails
12:40<frosch123>so it does for me :)
12:40<Prof_Frink>frosch123: keyboard
12:40<frosch123>ah, indeed, thanks
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12:50<welshdragon>will that cause a fail?
12:51<@Yexo>depends, are the grfs named liked that in your data/ directory?
12:51<@Yexo>if they are in a subdirectory I think you'll have to provide the relative path from the data directory
12:52<welshdragon>they are in data/content_download/ and are all .tar files
12:52<@Yexo>also you have "egrvts.grf" and "chips", you either have to provide ".grf" or not, but one of the too will cause a fail
12:52<welshdragon>ah, yes
12:53<@Yexo>you'll have to provide the path inside the tar file
12:53<@Yexo>so if chips is in data/content_download/data/chips.tar/chips/chips.grf you have to put "chips/chips.grf" in your config file
12:54<welshdragon>so I'll need to unpack all the files? fine. I can do that
12:54<@Yexo>no, you just need to find out the name of the directory inside the tar
12:56<@Yexo>"tar -tf filename.tar" will list all files and directories inside filename.tar
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13:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: translators * r22549 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files):
13:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 1 changes by Gavin
13:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changes by Parody
13:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 16 changes by kristoffer_hh
13:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: swedish - 7 changes by Ingerfara
13:47<Klatuferatanektu>A friend and me installed openttd 1.1.1 win64bit version. everythigng seems to work fine. but: we cannot find the server the other one created
13:47<Klatuferatanektu>whats wrong?
13:48<fjb>Sounds like a router or firewall issue.
13:48<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
13:48<@planetmaker>check your routers and firewalls
13:49<Klatuferatanektu>ok, thy. ill check taht
13:51<welshdragon>Klatuferatanektu, also: it helps if your friend has got the server set to advertise
13:57<Klatuferatanektu>welshdragon: how to set the server to advertise?
14:00<welshdragon>Klatuferatanektu, when starting a server: under Connection (it's default is LAN/Internet), choose Internet (Advertise)
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14:17<welshdragon>my server works
14:17<welshdragon>and so do the Newgrf's :D
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14:20<@planetmaker>congratz :-)
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15:11<Bilge>Why do some servers pause when players connect while others don't?
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15:11<TWerkhoven>its a server-side setting
15:12<TWerkhoven>some servers enable it so people can establish a connection before the cpu gets too loaded with all the vehicles
15:13<Bilge>I am 99% certain that would NOT be the reason it exists
15:17<@planetmaker>thus one can err
15:27<@peter1138>it is 100% the reason that setting exists
15:27*peter1138 remembers the bad old days...
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15:29*V453000 remembers the bad current days...
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15:42<bodis>quick question, I downloaded the following NewGRFs, are they compatible with each other and in which order to enable them: British Town Names, TTRS3.11, eGRVTS, 2cc train
15:42<@planetmaker>yes. any
15:42<bodis>this is my first attempt to use NewGRF's so sorry if the question is dumb
15:42<bodis>k ty planetmaker
15:43<bodis>planetmaker, what do you guys use for new grf's, C++?
15:43<@planetmaker>it has its own language
15:43<bodis>what is it
15:44<@planetmaker>there are two options: nfo which is the equiv. of assembler
15:44<bodis>do you need a trainee?:P
15:44<@Yexo>nfo, the documentation can be found here:
15:44<@planetmaker>and there's nml. which can be compared to c then
15:44<@Yexo>meanwhile there is also nml, which is a bit higher language and the compiler for nml can output either nfo or grf files
15:44<bodis>assembler sounds good
15:44<@Yexo>documentation of the latter is here:
15:45<bodis>which is preferred?
15:45<@Yexo>nml for readability :)
15:45<@planetmaker>personal choice
15:45<@Yexo>but I'm obviously biased
15:45<@planetmaker>but... I'd pick nml every day
15:45<bodis>steep learning curve?
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15:45<@Yexo> and
15:46<@Yexo>you can compare those two files
15:46<@planetmaker>^ look through there
15:46<bodis>ok ty
15:46<@planetmaker>ah, good thing, Yexo :-)
15:46<@Yexo>the first one is nml code, the second one is the nfo output by the nmlc compiler
15:46<@Yexo>manually written nfo is somewhat easier to read sometimes, but not much
15:46<@planetmaker>which you'd need to write, if you chose nfo ;-), but
15:46<@planetmaker>what he says
15:47<@Yexo>writing nfo is not much harder than reading, perhaps even easier
15:47<@planetmaker>I guess so, yes
15:47<bodis>some code :)
15:47<@planetmaker>but re-visiting the same is... bad ;-)
15:47<@planetmaker>bodis: the big newgrfs have severa thousands of lines of code
15:47<@planetmaker>in nfo
15:47<@Yexo>bodis: in the repository it's cleanly divided in multiple files
15:48<@Yexo>but this is the only way to directly compare nml to nfo
15:48<@Yexo>planetmaker: also in nml
15:48<bodis>I will take a look, looks I will go nml way
15:48<@planetmaker>yes, also there
15:48<bodis>is nml used only for ttd?
15:48<@planetmaker>it's similar to gimp-fu
15:49<@planetmaker>it has one use-case
15:49<bodis>ok seems like a challenge :)
15:49<bodis>you boys are active developers?
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15:49<@planetmaker>we're inactivity impersonated
15:50<@Terkhen>in nml or in openttd? :P
15:50<@planetmaker>or nfo?
15:50<@Yexo>bodis: everyone in this channel with op or voice is an openttd developer
15:51<@Yexo>planetmaker, Terkhen and myself are also developers of nml
15:51<@Terkhen>for nml I write small patches and documentation that Yexo has to review anyways :P
15:51<@Yexo>hence why I said: I'm obviously biased :)
15:52<@Terkhen>which reminds me that I completely forgot about grf2nml
15:52<@Yexo>for nml or nfo?
15:52<@Yexo> the reference documentation and the forum topic:
15:53<@Terkhen>I don't think we have a step by step tutorial, though
15:53<@Yexo>there are also small examples in the regression test directory
15:53<@Terkhen>but feel free to ask as many questions as you want :P
15:53<@Terkhen>you should play a bit with NewGRFs first to know what they can be do :)
15:53<@Terkhen>s/can be/can/
15:53<@Yexo>and all opengfx+ projects could serve as example too, you can find them here:
15:55<@Yexo>Terkhen: just updated both and
15:56<@Terkhen>nice, I almost have linux again :)
15:56<@Terkhen>the stupid thing refuses to automount:P
15:56<@planetmaker>that's like "a little bit pregnant" ;-)
15:56<@Alberth>almost graduated? :)
15:57<@Terkhen>and if there is anything that annoys me I can't work
15:59<@Terkhen>Yexo: what was changed?
15:59<@Yexo>nothing significant
15:59<@Yexo>mostly removed all parts you committed
16:00<@Terkhen>ok :)
16:00<bodis>Yexo, python 3.x not compatible?
16:01<@Yexo>not sure, I haven't tested with python 3.x in a long time
16:01<@Yexo>but I think PIL (python imaging library) is not compatible with python 3 yet
16:01<bodis>what ships with debian squeeze?
16:01<@Terkhen>last time I tested refused to work
16:01<@Yexo>maybe it is in the meantime, but if not that is a major blocker
16:01<@Terkhen>bodis: use python --version
16:01<@Yexo>Terkhen: is part of nml ;)
16:01<@Yexo>that can be easily changed, if the rest of the code works
16:02<bodis>2.6.6 awes,ome :)
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16:06<bodis>how many projects are you guys working on?
16:06<@Yexo>that really depends on how you count
16:07<@Terkhen>too many? :P
16:07<@Yexo>biggest projects by far are openttd and nml
16:07<bodis>wait a sec, you are actual developers of openttd itself?
16:08<@Alberth>what else :p
16:08<@Yexo><Yexo> bodis: everyone in this channel with op or voice is an openttd developer <- isn't that what I said?
16:08<@Terkhen>as Yexo said, everyone with op or voice here is a developer of openttd
16:08*bodis shuts up
16:09<@Alberth>including DorpsGek :p
16:09<@DorpsGek>of course I am
16:09<bodis>right so what is good for a first project?
16:09<bodis>need to get a feel of nml
16:09<@Yexo>play openttd, find something you don't like, and look for a good way to fix it
16:10<bodis>got one already
16:10<@planetmaker>that's how all these projects started
16:10<bodis>time goes too quick :)
16:10<bodis>I bet there is a newgrf for that :)
16:10<@Yexo>if you want to start with newgrf coding, you could try to see if there are any projects at the forum in need for a coder
16:10<@planetmaker>not feasible
16:10<@Yexo>no newgrf, but there is a patch for it
16:11<@Terkhen>I tried to do one and failed :P
16:11<@Alberth>there are several daylength patches around
16:11<bodis>I thought it would be as easy as to change a time variable
16:11<@Yexo>industry processing is done every 256 ticks, but a newgrf could in theory rely on the fact that that is 8 or 9 times per month
16:12<@Yexo>if it does, it'll break if industry production is suddenly done 18 times per month
16:12<@planetmaker>time for bed. Good night folks
16:12<@Yexo>good night planetmaker
16:12<@Terkhen>night planetmaker
16:12<@Yexo>there are more similar problems: should the income per trip be altered or not?
16:12<bodis>Yexo> if you want to start with newgrf coding, you could try to see if there are any projects at the forum in need for a coder <-- not a coder yet :)
16:12<@Alberth>and you don't want to increase daily income just because to lengten the day
16:13<@Yexo>if not, you can make a lot more profit in the same "years" by tuning the daylength factor, which means the highscore table is useless
16:13<bodis>what happens after 2050?
16:13<@Yexo>of course it already is to some extend
16:13<@Alberth>the game continues
16:13<@Yexo>there are no new vehicels anymore, but otherwise you can just play on
16:13<bodis>game goes on as normal?
16:13<bodis>ahh ok
16:14<@Alberth>until around the year 5000000 :)
16:14<@Yexo>only in the year 5000000 (perpahs a zero more or less) the gameyear will stay the same
16:14<@Terkhen>could you define dates of introduction greater than 2050?
16:15<@Alberth>bodis: if you like toyland, there are almost no newgrfs for that climate
16:16<bodis>never played it :)
16:16<bodis>I would prefer mars :)
16:16<bodis>I will start looking into this
16:16<Bilge>I can already provide you with a list of things that need fixing
16:17<bodis>I havent touched nml yet
16:17<bodis>need to learn it first
16:17<bodis>dont i?
16:17<@Alberth>everybody has such a list ;)
16:17<Bilge>Is there an actual suggestions tracker?
16:18<@Terkhen>bodis: I'm planning to do a mars newgrf :P
16:18<@Yexo>there are several suggestions in the bug tracker:
16:18<bodis>awesome, I am in :)
16:18<@Alberth>Bilge: the wiki?
16:18<@Yexo>but nothing related to newgrfs
16:18<@Terkhen>great :P
16:18<@Yexo>the wiki also has a long list:
16:18<@Terkhen>it needs some changes in openttd itself before, though
16:19<@Terkhen>and don't forget the suggestions forum:
16:19<@Yexo>and there is a suggestions forum:
16:19<@Alberth>Yexo: newgrf requests don't really belong in the openttd trackers imho
16:19<@Terkhen>bodis: for example, currently there is no way to decide which cargos make towns grow
16:19<@Yexo>but they don't "belong" anywhere currently
16:19<@Yexo>there are also some in the graphics development section:
16:19<@Terkhen>well, there is but it is not as complete as it should
16:19<@Yexo>Terkhen: isn't that what TOWN_EFFECT is for?
16:20<bodis>so what does make town grow?
16:20<@Terkhen>Yexo: but if I want two cargos affecting town growth that forces me to use the tropic climate
16:20<@Yexo>bodis: see
16:21<bodis>right you know what boys, I am intrigued
16:21<bodis>I will get on this and start reading up
16:21<@Yexo><Terkhen> well, there is but it is not as complete as it should <- my reaction was before you wrote this, I completely agree there :)
16:21<bodis>and playing :)
16:21<@Yexo>playing is no requirement :p
16:22<@Yexo>last time I played was openttdcoop psg200, they're not at 208
16:22<@Terkhen>I have been playing a lot lately, but probably because I'm already coding a lot but for stuff not related to openttd
16:22<@Terkhen>I should write a wiki page of requirements for the mars conversion grf
16:23<@Alberth>yacd needs testing :p
16:23<@Terkhen>I have been doing that :)
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16:31<bodis>damn the code is complicated
16:32<bodis>or is wine in my blood?
16:32<@Alberth>a bit of both :)
16:32<@Terkhen>which code? openttd or nml? :P
16:32<bodis>looking at this
16:32<@Terkhen>hmm... that's the generated, complete nml file
16:32<bodis>i will need some help cracking it
16:33<@Terkhen>you will have an easier time checking the separate files, at least they are organized:
16:33<@Terkhen>"header" is the initial file
16:34<@Alberth>or clone a copy to your machine
16:34<@Terkhen>yes, if you have mercurial:
16:35<@Alberth>you can start with a town-name newgrf, those are very simple. Then make it generate names from parts.
16:36<bodis>I will have to do this tomorrow, had 2 glasses of wine tonight... head not working very clear :P
16:36<@Alberth>industries are more complicated, as you have to specify a lot of things
16:37<@Alberth>some vehicle coding is also not too difficult, I think (never done that, so not sure)
16:37<@Terkhen>bodis: <--- this is one of the most simple newgrfs in nml
16:37<bodis>ok I will aim to create lithuanian town grf, if there aint one already
16:38<bodis>this one is simple!
16:38<bodis>I can understand it :)
16:38<@Alberth>nml makes it simple :p
16:39<@Terkhen>bodis: the grfid is a (supposedly) unique identifier for the newgrf, then it defines the name, description and version
16:39<@Alberth>in nfo, you cannot have 4000 names.
16:39<@Terkhen>after that it defines a block of town names, each one with the same probability (1)
16:39<@Yexo>you can, but not in one block
16:39<bodis>right, apologies in advance, I might have to annoy you guys with dumb questions for next few months :)
16:39<@Terkhen>oh, some have different probabilities :P
16:40<@Alberth>no problem at all :)
16:40<@Terkhen>bodis: don't worry, that's how I started too :P
16:40<bodis>good project to get stuck into
16:41<bodis>done php last 4 weeks, need something new
16:42<bodis>ok gonna play some ottd now, cant concentrate anyway :)
16:42<Bilge>If not operating on a noise basis, what is the maximum number of airports for a town?
16:42<@Terkhen>bodis: enjoy ;)
16:43<bodis>whats better money maker, trains or plains?
16:43<@Yexo>depends on the used grfs
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16:45<Bilge>Yexo how do you fund your OTTD obsession
16:45<@Yexo>being on irc is easy enough during college ;)
16:46<@Yexo>and I'm not always as much online as the last few days
16:46<Bilge>Studying comp sci?
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16:47<@Yexo>yes, how did you guess? :p
16:47<Bilge>I didn't, I am your #1 stalker
16:51<Bilge>Is there any kind of quality control involved with the bananas system or can anyone upload anything there, including broken or potentially malicious grfs?
16:51<@Terkhen>how can you code a malicious grf?
16:52<Bilge>Buffer overflow maybe; I'm not here to theorise, just asking the question
16:53<@Terkhen>openttd should detect newgrfs with those kind of errors and disable them
16:53<@Terkhen>I can't claim to have tested every case :P
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17:30<TrueBrain>GENERAL NOTICE: will be a bit slow; we are doing some massive I/O operation on it, while sending out a lot of bytes over the network :)
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17:37<@Terkhen>good night
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17:42<Bilge>dd if=/dev/random of=/dev/sda?
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>urandom is faster
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>also this hardly counts as "over the network"
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17:52<Elvang>When updating, do I just install over the previous version?
17:53<Elvang>Alright, thanks.
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---Logclosed Fri Jun 10 00:00:53 2011