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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-06-12

---Logopened Sun Jun 12 00:00:56 2011
---Logopened Sun Jun 12 00:05:57 2011
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01:11<@Terkhen>good morning
01:31<andythenorth>hi Terkhen
01:31<supermop>hello
01:37<@planetmaker>moin
01:37<supermop>hm have to drive to dc tomorrow, so, goodnight
01:38<@planetmaker>good night :-)
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02:51<CIA-10>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22554 /extra/website/ (4 files in 3 dirs): [Website] -Update: logo, bananas 'constants', types of packages
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04:13<bodis>morning
04:13<@planetmaker>moin
04:15-!-Eddi|zuHause3 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
04:15<@peter1138>heh minecraft's moding api: the full source code
04:16<andythenorth>shouldn't 'minecraft' result in automatic kban?
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04:16<andythenorth>'minecrack' is acceptable :P
04:17*andythenorth prefers this sort of mining: http://www.pitmanworld.com/
04:22<@peter1138>well you're silly
04:22<andythenorth>I don't mind shaft when I'm mineshafting
04:23<V453000>lol
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04:26<andythenorth>"What I'm not is a friendly approachable person, so stay out me way and let me dig"
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04:54<__ln__>there's quite a flaw in the big plot of The Event, imho...
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05:04<@Alberth>it does not happen?
05:05<heffer>hey guys. most important patch for grfcodec EVER: http://fpaste.org/EDvU/raw/
05:05<heffer>(fixes the FSFs address in all license texts) :D
05:06<heffer>+ fixes the GPL 2.0
05:07<heffer>aaaand it has some sed fail in it :D
05:07<heffer>lemme fix that :D
05:09<@Alberth>heffer: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/grfcodec
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05:14<heffer>Alberth: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2729
05:15<@Alberth>ok :) I am not in that project, but I am sure the owners will appreciate your efforts
05:15<heffer>i know they will ;)
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05:27<@Alberth>heffer: do you have a source for this change? It might be useful to link to that as reference
05:28<heffer>added it to the ticket :)
05:28<heffer>our rpm checking tool somehow now also checks for the FSFs address :D
05:29<@Alberth>thank you
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05:31<Wolf01>hello
05:31<@Alberth>hello Wolf01
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06:02<Rubidium>didn't those address like change last millenium?
06:04<andythenorth>snow is interestink
06:04<andythenorth>some default buildings have it on the roof only
06:04<andythenorth>others on roof + ground
06:04<andythenorth>somebody has cleaned snow from their office lawn :P
06:05<@planetmaker>yup :-P
06:05<@planetmaker>they do that. Install a lawn heating
06:05<@planetmaker>for outdoor golf on the green in winter.
06:05<@planetmaker>Too much money all those tycoons :-P
06:05<@Terkhen>yes, completely realistic :)
06:05<@planetmaker>:-D
06:06<V453000>:d
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06:37<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure football stadiums do have lawn heatings
07:11*andythenorth has a valid case for extended tile layout :)
07:11<andythenorth>but is wondering about documentation :P
07:12<@Alberth>do I want to know what extended tile layout is about?
07:13<andythenorth>of course you do ;)
07:13<@Alberth>interesting, this extended tile layout, can you tell more about it?
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07:13<andythenorth>@22518
07:13<andythenorth>@DorpsGek 22518
07:13<andythenorth>meh
07:14<@Terkhen>@commit 22518
07:14<@DorpsGek>Terkhen: Commit by frosch :: r22518 /trunk/src (13 files in 2 dirs) (2011-05-29 16:56:22 UTC)
07:14<@DorpsGek>Terkhen: -Feature: [NewGRF] Advanced sprite layouts with register modifiers.
07:15<frosch123>andythenorth: it is called "Advanced Sprite Layout" now, "Extended Sprite Layout" was already used
07:15<frosch123>and it also fits nicely with AdvVarAct2 which also deals with registers :)
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07:19<andythenorth>frosch123: ttdp wiki needs specs updating?
07:20<frosch123>yes, still :)
07:20<andythenorth>can we copy-paste anything?
07:20<frosch123>but as I already told you: the existing pages need restructuring first
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07:20<frosch123>they are too much of a mess to add something new
07:20<andythenorth>oh yes
07:21<frosch123>i'll do that when i am in the mood to do it
07:21<andythenorth>ok
07:21<andythenorth>in the meantime, I use the src as documentation?
07:22<frosch123>no, http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Advanced_Sprite_Layout
07:23<andythenorth>okey cokey
07:23<andythenorth>thanks
07:23<frosch123>i also started on nforenum
07:23<frosch123>first did action0 as i thought that would be the annoying part, finished that, and then discovered that the action2 part is more annoying :s
07:24<andythenorth>will nforenum sulk if I try and use this?
07:27<frosch123>it will not understand it :)
07:31<andythenorth>that is an argument against writing that code today :P
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07:38<@Alberth>why, I can write code for days without testing whether a tool understands it :p
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07:42*andythenorth ....can't
07:42<andythenorth>:P
07:43<@Terkhen>I need constant testing, otherwise I end up doing something stupid :P
07:48<andythenorth>one day I will understand bounding boxes
07:48<andythenorth>meanwhile I just cross my fingers + hope
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07:57<andythenorth>industry var 66
07:57<andythenorth>I assumed that checking it was <100d would give me industries located within 10 tiles of town sign
07:57<andythenorth>instead I get more like ~20 tiles
07:57<andythenorth>which maths do I fail?
07:58<@Terkhen>maybe it uses manhattan distance instead of euclidean distance
07:58<andythenorth>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=VarAction2Industries#Get_square_of_Euclidean_distance_of_closest_town_66_
07:58<@Terkhen>oh, it doesn't :P
07:59<andythenorth>unless I need to nibble some of the result
07:59<andythenorth>I'm checking it as a word
07:59<andythenorth>no shift
07:59<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/270/
08:00<@Terkhen>from checking the code it seems that you only need the last nibble, the first nibble is the town radius group
08:00<andythenorth>ignore the comments on my paste, some are wrong
08:01*andythenorth spots a mistake though
08:01<frosch123>andythenorth: you should only check the lower 16 bits
08:01<andythenorth>and my param will be all wrong :P
08:01<andythenorth>copy and paste fail :P
08:02<andythenorth>I was offsetting from N tile by whatever industry ID was
08:02<andythenorth>interestink
08:03<andythenorth>frosch123: lower 16 bits?
08:03<andythenorth>2 bytes?
08:03<frosch123>yes, andmask of 0xFFFF
08:03<andythenorth>this is my (fixed) code http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/271/
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08:04<andythenorth>not sure it's entirely doing what it should yet
08:06<frosch123>not sure what you define with THIS_DISTANCE_LIMIT_SQUARED
08:06<frosch123>but you should put the \w not in the define
08:07<andythenorth>that won't work, the CPP will stumble on it
08:07<andythenorth>sadly :(
08:07<andythenorth>it's a PITA
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08:12<@Alberth>the joys of using software in ways it is not meant to be used :)
08:12<andythenorth>hmm
08:13<andythenorth>it would be useful to be able to print some top level debug information from the game
08:13<andythenorth>e.g. for each industry type, the enabled cbs etc
08:13<andythenorth>I can manually inspect, but that's somewhat painful with ~ 40 types
08:13<andythenorth>I guess I could write something locally to parse the pnfo
08:14<andythenorth>but that only benefits FIRS
08:14<andythenorth>FIRS development gets ever slower as there's so much to check isn't broken
08:14<andythenorth>and no way of automatically testing :P
08:24<andythenorth>hmm
08:24<andythenorth>'newgame FIRS build_only brewery'
08:24<andythenorth>might be useful
08:24<andythenorth>maybe not
08:24<andythenorth>the probabilities would go nuts
08:30<andythenorth>is there a method to allow industry to overbuild houses?
08:30<andythenorth>besides special flags 8h, 10h, and 20h
08:30<andythenorth>which do more than just allow overbuilding houses
08:30<@Alberth>banks and water towers do it, so I guess there is :)
08:31<andythenorth>they use custom code in industry_cmd.cpp iirc
08:31<@Alberth>that could be the case
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08:34<Bilge>andythenorth I am playing using FIRS
08:35<Bilge>I don't really understand these things like building supplies
08:36<Bilge>They just disappear into thin air unless you have something to receive them constantly the second a delivery arrives
08:37<Bilge>Also all quarries seem to be linked
08:38<Bilge>They all produce 90/90 sand/stone maximum and the only time I saw it drop they all dropped in unison
08:38<Bilge>Why?
08:38<andythenorth>short month
08:38<Bilge>I think it was because of recession
08:38<Bilge>But the point is there seems to be very little variance between the industries
08:39<andythenorth>FIRS ignores recessions
08:39<Bilge>Unlike base TTD where there are good and bad performing industries in each sector
08:39<andythenorth>Bilge: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/855
08:40<Bilge>Added by andythenorth about 1 year ago
08:40<Bilge>real
08:41<andythenorth>yarp
08:41<andythenorth>there's been about 1100 FIRS commits since then
08:42<andythenorth>but none of them fixed the production randomisation
08:42<Bilge>And neither will the next 1100
08:43<Bilge>They'll just be memos in the comments to order more beer
08:44<@Terkhen>sure
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08:49<@Alberth>Bilge: comments like that are completely useless; accept how it behaves, stop using it, or help fixing it
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09:47<Eddi|zuHause># Wieso, wieso bin immer ich der Idiot
09:47<Eddi|zuHause># Und warum, warum haben andere, nich ich, die Millionen
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11:20<haukinger>hi all
11:21<@Terkhen>hi haukinger
11:21<haukinger>question about the code: what are the preconditions for DoCommandP ?
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>use DoCommandP from gui code/user interaction, and use DoCommand from within DoCommandP
11:23<haukinger>I tried to invoke a command on a vehicle in LoadUnloadStation, and it doesn't work because of _current_company being set wrong
11:24<frosch123>LoadUnloadStation is part of the gameloop, use DoCommand there
11:24<frosch123>DoCommandP sends stuff to the server, i.e. there is no immediate execution
11:24<haukinger>ok, I'm trying this
11:24<haukinger>I copy-pasted the command code, but that gives desyncs
11:24<@Terkhen>every client and the server have the same code?
11:25<haukinger>yes
11:26<haukinger>and it works if I run two instances on one machine
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11:31<@Terkhen>haukinger: that code is being executed for stations of all companies, and you should not send commands as another company
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12:45<@planetmaker>[13:20] frosch123 but as I already told you: the existing pages need restructuring first <-- is it a good idea to create a new server where we can transition the newgrf wiki to? It will be quite easy to setup one with whatever we like
12:45<@planetmaker>Then we can do the transition and switch it officially when the boring transition work is done
12:45<@planetmaker>good evening also :-)
12:45<@Alberth>evenink planetmaker
12:46<@planetmaker>I just thought this noon about creating a VM for that purpose
12:46<@planetmaker>question only is: what wiki do we want?
12:46-!-jonty-comp is now known as Gargamel
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12:47<@Alberth>something with a proper vcs behind it, imho
12:48<@Alberth>i am not even sure you should want a wiki
12:48<@planetmaker>Ignorant of the different pros and cons of the different wikis as I am, I'd pick media wiki on grounds that both OpenTTD and #openttdcoop wiki use it
12:48<@planetmaker>wiki worked quite well for NewGRF specs
12:48<@planetmaker>as long as it's a separate wiki
12:49<@planetmaker>what would you suggest instead of a wiki, Alberth ?
12:49<bodis>If I am transfering a save file from one pc to another, do I need to activate same NewGRF's or do they only need to be present in data directory?
12:50<@planetmaker>just copy the savegame. It knows which NewGRFs it wants
12:50<bodis>k
12:50<@planetmaker>main menu newgrf selection has no impact on that
12:50<bodis>ok ty
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12:52<@Alberth>a vcs project with some plain text format, eg restructured text
12:52<frosch123>planetmaker: i took a look at some wiki softwares some weeks ago
12:52<frosch123>considering the requirements a unified wiki for ottd + specs would need, mediawiki is the only option
12:52<@Alberth>how many people edit the specs currently?
12:52<@Terkhen>Alberth: who would have access to that vcs?
12:53<frosch123>there are a lot of wikis out there with some interesting features, but most are unmaintained
12:53<frosch123>actually only mediawiki and tikiwiki looked maintained at all (considering those with a minimum feature set)
12:53<@Alberth>Terkhen: anybody that wants to change newgrf specs and knows what he is doing?
12:54*andythenorth would prefer a better system, but thinks we'll end up with a wiki :P
12:54<andythenorth>because it's most likely to be maintained
12:54<@Terkhen>and who determines "who knows what he is doing"? :P
12:54<@Alberth>devs of ttdpatch and openttd?
12:54<@Alberth>most things need program changes anyway
12:55<@Alberth>or are there other people that make useful contributions to a formal spec outside that group?
12:55<frosch123>anyway, we cannot just transition to a new wiki... the worst would be two places with the specs. so if there is something new, the old one must be shut down
12:55<@orudge>The plan for TT-Wiki is to use MediaWiki
12:55<@Terkhen>but other people have also been correcting and extending stuff... IMO a wiki that enforces being registered would be enough
12:55<frosch123>which i do not see quite happening
12:55<@orudge>and the original TTDPatch wiki was to be merged into that
12:56<@orudge>What is it you lot are plotting?
12:56<@Alberth>take over the world, of course
12:56<@orudge>quite
12:57<andythenorth>I see well made things made with http://sphinx.pocoo.org/
12:58<@Terkhen>orudge: that it would be nice to have a new place for hosting the specs
12:58<andythenorth>sphinx appears well used by some major python projects
12:58<andythenorth>it's probably maintained
12:59<@orudge>Terkhen: well, as I say, it seems to me that the best plan for that is for it to become part of this new integrated wiki. Plans for that have kind of stalled, though, but if what you're plotting is to involve the OpenTTD wiki too, then it sounds like you might be doing my work for you ;)
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12:59<@orudge>in which case I'm happy to provide hosting and integration with the forum database, which of course was the other major thing that was desired for the wiki
12:59<@Terkhen>hmm... not really, IMO the openttd wiki should stay separated
13:00<@planetmaker>orudge: Only a subset of the current TTDP wiki would belong to the NewGRF wiki
13:00<andythenorth>I'm not sure how much is gained from wide-open editing of newgrf specs
13:00<@orudge>planetmaker: well, true
13:00<andythenorth>i.e. the number of people who can usefully contribute is limited
13:00<@planetmaker>and, indeed, orudge, separate sign-on for the NewGRF wiki is IMHO desirable. I.e. forum account should not automatically give edit rights there
13:01<@orudge>planetmaker: hmm, well, it would seem that having a unified user database would still be desirable, but possibly with a restricted group for editing certain pages (or even the whole thing)
13:01<@planetmaker>the reasons there actually is the inconvenience it means :-)
13:02<@orudge>is there actually much/any abuse of the existing TTDPatch wiki though?
13:02<@planetmaker>the newgrf wiki is the specs. Which not everyone should edit
13:02<@orudge>I hadn't really noticed any
13:02<@planetmaker>neither me. But I *think* the reason is that it is indeed a separate wiki
13:02<@orudge>hmm
13:02<@orudge>well
13:02<@planetmaker>Anyone can sign up. But it's a separate step :-)
13:02<@planetmaker>Maybe I'm mistaken or too cautious
13:03<@Terkhen>as long as edit is protected it does not matter who registers
13:03<@planetmaker>But I gathered that I'm not alone with the reservation to grant everyone (easy) edit rights there
13:03<@Terkhen>and right now the specs are not protected at all and I don't remember any issue with abuse
13:03<@orudge>it may be desirable to solicit feedback on this on the forums, at any rate, for the three people who exclusively work with TTDPatch or whatever :P
13:03<@Terkhen>I agree on that point, but IMO it should not be restricted to TTDPatch / OpenTTD devs
13:04<@Terkhen>yes, that's a good idea :)
13:04<@orudge>I would suggest that anonymous editing would definitely be disabled
13:04<@planetmaker>no, definitely not. Pikka, mb, andy, george, etc are valuable editors there
13:04<@planetmaker>yes
13:04<@Terkhen>indeed
13:04<@orudge>to me, it seems sensible to leave things unprotected, but if there's a problem, then things can be restricted further
13:04<@orudge>but maybe that's just me :)
13:05<@planetmaker>I don't mind unprotected :-)
13:05<@planetmaker>I'm for that
13:05<@planetmaker>(but logged in, of course)
13:05<@orudge>yes
13:06<@planetmaker>politically feasible is probably only that you host the NewGRF wiki
13:06<@orudge>well, I could definitely set up a tt-wiki.net/newgrf or somesuch
13:06<@planetmaker>if it'd run on Ammler's and my server, I guess a certain share of people would not accept that
13:06<@planetmaker>though I'd be happy to host it
13:06<@orudge>and import the existing newgrf pages from the ttdpatch wiki (which can then be edited or reorganised)
13:06<@planetmaker>we have capacity and means to easily do that
13:06<@orudge>or you can import them manually if desired
13:07<andythenorth>I'm not worried about abuse :) That hasn't happened so far.
13:07<@orudge>mmh, I don't think there's a problem with hosting really :)
13:07<andythenorth>I'm mostly concerned about having to use crappy software for documenation :P
13:07<@planetmaker>:-)
13:07<@Yexo>the scope of such a wiki would have to be clearly defined however
13:08<@planetmaker>Actually I'm worried about that the old wiki will not go offline
13:08<@Terkhen>IMO the newgrf specs should be a completely separate wiki... right now it is not clear what belongs to the specs and what not
13:08<@planetmaker>That's my biggest worry
13:08<@orudge>planetmaker: well, what I could do in conjuction is move the other TTDPatch wiki pages to the new forums wiki
13:08<@orudge>(and OpenTTD can keep its own wiki, which probably is best anyway)
13:08<@orudge>and then just officially close the old tikiwiki
13:08<@planetmaker>Terkhen: so two wikis: specs and newgrf programming wiki?
13:08<@Yexo>planetmaker: all spec pages on the old wiki could be cleaned and a redirect added, that shouldn't be a problem
13:09<@Terkhen>I think that tutorials and stuff like that do not belong with the specs, although it would also be nice to have them
13:09<@Terkhen>planetmaker: IMO yes
13:09<@planetmaker>probably a good idea
13:09<@Yexo>hard to draw the line between them sometimes
13:09<@Yexo>take the "CargoTypes" page
13:09<@planetmaker>yeah
13:09<@Terkhen>true
13:09<@Yexo>is that spec or just general consensus?
13:09<@Yexo>same for RailTypes page
13:10<@planetmaker>it _seems_ that cargotypes is specs and railtypes concensus at best. But... yes
13:10<@Terkhen>I'd say that the default cargos part is spec, the rest is consensus
13:10<Rubidium>I'd make a spec wiki for nfo, a spec page (directly from hg) for nml and a general wiki with the stuff that transcends everything
13:10<@planetmaker>Terkhen: but then looking in two wikis for that basic thing you need for programming a vehicle is... inconvenient
13:10<Rubidium>i.e. tutorials, general best use, used grfids, used cargo types, ...
13:10<andythenorth>API spec is API spec
13:10<andythenorth>tutorials are tutorials
13:11<andythenorth>one can link the other, but they are not same
13:11<Ammler>the newgrf spec could be added to grfcrawler
13:11<Rubidium>where the spec and nml refer to the general wiki
13:11<Ammler>grfcodec I meant
13:11<Ammler>(no wiki)
13:11*Terkhen agrees with Rubidium
13:11<andythenorth>what currently irritates me is that code examples are generally banned from spec. This is not how other languages do it
13:12<Ammler>ah, like Rubi suggested :-)
13:12<Rubidium>examples are vital, but IMO the spec should have example snippets; not all encompassing examples
13:12<andythenorth>yes
13:12<andythenorth>exactly that
13:12<andythenorth>it's what the 'pre' tag was invented for :P
13:12<Rubidium>those belong more to the general wiki, although! the spec should refer to the general wiki
13:13<@planetmaker>sounds viable
13:13<Rubidium>e.g. if there are 2 'big' examples using industry animation speed, it would be useful to refer to there
13:13<@planetmaker>even though drawing the line will not always be easy
13:15<Rubidium>if it has multiple pseudo sprites and adding an action 8 + graphics would make it a somewhat working NewGRF you're too far (I'd say)
13:16<@planetmaker>for the specs wiki, yes
13:17<Rubidium>yep, the general wiki should (mostly) contain (almost) working examples
13:18<Rubidium>alternatively the NewGRF spec becomes a hg repository with htmls like the NML spec
13:18<andythenorth>I would vastly prefer a documentation system to a wiki
13:18<Rubidium>and we generously give those that we know have actual knowledge accounts
13:19<Rubidium>andythenorth: docbook or so?
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13:19<andythenorth>I'm a satisfied reader of http://sphinx.pocoo.org/
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13:19<andythenorth>although I haven't used it to add any content
13:20<@orudge>I would possibly argue that something more universally "standard", such as docbook, may be better
13:20<@orudge>that looks rather like it is geared towards Python
13:20<andythenorth>possibly too much so
13:20<frosch123>why do you consider access protection so important?
13:21<frosch123>i don't see random people messing with the specs
13:21<andythenorth>orudge: the chances of finding anything with code highlighting support for nfo is...well make your own bet :P
13:21<@Alberth>restructured text? more lightweight
13:21<frosch123>otoh i see very restrictive rules on the current ttdp wiki, e.g. how hard it is to get something into the table of contents
13:22<@Yexo>the current ttpd wiki is imo too strict
13:22<@orudge>andythenorth: well, quite. :P But docbook, texinfo, etc, are generally easier for the majority of people to get and use, I imagine, rather than something they've never heard of before that requires them to faff with Python. But that's perhaps my own general dislike of things that require me to faff with Python coming through. I never get on well with them. :P
13:22<@Alberth>what about bundling current contents in a tarball?
13:22<andythenorth>orudge: it parses reST as far as I can see
13:22<andythenorth>it = sphinx
13:23<frosch123>Alberth: noone wants an offline spec
13:23<frosch123>90% of the time it is linked from irc or the forums
13:23<@Yexo>I sometimes would like that :)
13:23<Rubidium>sphinx seems to be focussd on files (modules) and method, and especially the latter doesn't exist in nfo
13:23<@Alberth>ok :)
13:23<andythenorth>any others using reST?
13:23<@Yexo>it's quite useful to be able to do something while in a train without internet
13:23<Rubidium>so I don't think sphinx is really useful, and neither are similar tools such as javadoc
13:23<@orudge>the TTDPatch manual at least used to be available in an assortment of offline formats, updated in a tarball nightly from the wiki (including, I presume, the newgrf specs)
13:23<@orudge>but I think that got broken some time ago
13:23<frosch123>orudge: it still works
13:23<@orudge>oh, does it?
13:24<@Alberth>but html diffs are impossible :p
13:24*andythenorth -> baby bath
13:24<frosch123>but adding files to it, is as restriction heavy as adding to the toc :)
13:24<andythenorth>bbl
13:24<frosch123>so, i do not see any point in using something other than mediawiki :)
13:25<@Alberth>I can live with that option too
13:25<@Yexo>me too
13:25<frosch123>just give access to everyone
13:26<frosch123>random people only edit pages with titles like "suggestion", "roadmap" etc. but nothing with "property 13" :p
13:26<@Yexo>as long as there is a clear description of what the wiki is for, like "specs only, no big examples, no grf-specific documentation"
13:27<@planetmaker>[19:23] frosch123 Alberth: noone wants an offline spec <-- the ttdp wiki is available for offline use as tar download
13:27<@planetmaker>I have it, if I need it when I have no wifi
13:28<frosch123>planetmaker: and? does it contain all files?
13:28<@planetmaker>yes, everything I needed was there
13:28<@planetmaker>up to the date I downloaded
13:28<frosch123>afaik it contains only stuff linked from the table of contents
13:28<@planetmaker>it's quite some month ago I updated that, but yes
13:28<frosch123>e.g. not the page about refitting
13:29<@planetmaker>I don't know, it's not like I extensively used it
13:29<@Terkhen>having an offline version is nice, but I couldn't live without an online version :P
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13:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: translators * r22555 /trunk/src/lang/ (dutch.txt korean.txt norwegian_nynorsk.txt):
13:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: dutch - 32 changes by Parody
13:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: korean - 2 changes by junho2813
13:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 27 changes by 2rB
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14:00<@orudge>There's currently nothing on it, but: http://www.tt-wiki.net/newgrf/
14:00<@orudge>Linked to the forum DB, only forum members can log in and edit. Nothing else done to it so far, but I could import the TTDPatch pages and we can see what might want doing. Plus any extensions that need installing can be installed.
14:04<@planetmaker>orudge: if you could do a (crude, if you want) import thereof, it'd be great
14:04<@planetmaker>I assume it could then become the specs wiki only?
14:04<@orudge>planetmaker: yep
14:04<@orudge>that's the intention
14:04<Bilge>norwegs
14:04<@planetmaker>good. Thus all unneeded stuff can go to the trash bin.
14:05<@orudge>brb
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14:45<@orudge>Ugh, George's Russian pages are breaking this conversion script. (It seems that the easiest thing to do is to convert the whole wiki, and then just copy over the appropriate pages to the specs wiki)
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14:57<@planetmaker>yes. The Russian pages are anyway not part of the NewGRF specs, but of the ECS readme
14:57<@orudge>Indeed.
14:58<@orudge>559 pages comprising 2979 revisions
14:58<@planetmaker>many :-)
14:59<@planetmaker>So, you don't mind if I starte with a rigerous delete orgy?
14:59<@orudge>well
14:59<@orudge>what I've done while you weren't looking
14:59<@orudge>www.tt-wiki.net is different to newgrf.tt-wiki.net now
14:59<@orudge>so, these are all going to be imported into tt-wiki.net
14:59<@orudge>I'll then export the newgrf spec pages from that into newgrf.tt-wiki.net
14:59<@planetmaker>please elaborate
14:59<@planetmaker>ah
14:59<@planetmaker>so twice basically
14:59<@orudge>because it's easier than trying to do it using my converter
14:59<@orudge>from tikiwiki
15:00<@planetmaker>and the stuff which doesn't belong gets deleted respectively?
15:00<@orudge>yep
15:00<@orudge>tt-wiki.net will then be the new home of the TTDPatch wiki, and the tt-forums wiki
15:00<@planetmaker>yep, that's what I expected actually :-)
15:00<@orudge>and newgrf.tt-wiki.net (or grfspecs.tt-wiki.net, whatever you want to call it :P) can be the new specs wiki
15:01<@planetmaker>newgrfspecs.tt-wiki.net ?
15:01<@orudge>seems a bit of a mouthful
15:01<@orudge>but maybe that's just me
15:01<@planetmaker>hm, you're right with that
15:01<@orudge>I've internally called it "GRFSpecs", because that's the only thing I could come up with that looked nice
15:01<@orudge>NewGRFSpecs seems a bit long
15:01<@planetmaker>I just tried to find a descriptive but not mis-leading name
15:01<@orudge>mmh
15:01<@planetmaker>grfspec, why not?
15:02<@planetmaker>hm... though...
15:02<@Alberth>it's not like it is new any more :p
15:02<@Alberth>just keep the long name imho
15:02<@planetmaker>what was Rubidium's suggestion earlier? A specs wiki and then another one where examples and non-spec descriptions go. But those could be sub-pages of the tt-wiki itself
15:03<@orudge>NewGRFs have been around for more than half of the time TTD has been around for, now, I think :p
15:03<@orudge>planetmaker: yes, I think they could be part of the TT Wiki
15:03<@Terkhen>grfspecs is fine imo :)
15:03<@orudge>too many wikis might just get confusing
15:03<@planetmaker>yep
15:03<@Alberth>but leaving out 'new' would confuse everybody
15:03<@planetmaker>and they share much stuff anyway
15:03<@orudge>Alberth: it'd still be referred to as the "NewGRF Specs" on the site
15:03<@orudge>it's just the URL
15:04<@planetmaker>newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net
15:04<@planetmaker>hm...
15:04<@planetmaker>but would fit better
15:04<@Alberth>does anybody know the default template of hg log?
15:04<@planetmaker>and doesn't exactly hurt either
15:05<@orudge>that could work, I guess
15:13<@orudge>planetmaker: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=NewGraphicsSpecs <-- are you wanting everything on that page, or just GRFActionsDetailed and AdditionalReference?
15:13<@orudge>(ie, ignore the GRFTutorial)
15:15<@planetmaker>the tutorial goes to the tt-wiki directly
15:15<@planetmaker>specs is specs
15:15<@orudge>right
15:15<@orudge>it's already there
15:15<@orudge>that's fine
15:15<@planetmaker>what could stay are the fundamental graphics things like palettes + coordinates
15:15<@planetmaker>they're part of the specs IMHO
15:16<@orudge>well
15:16<@planetmaker>but it'll need weeding through
15:16<@orudge>we can pull those over later if appropriate
15:16<@planetmaker>in detail
15:16<@planetmaker>yep. Or just copy
15:16<@planetmaker>manually
15:16<@planetmaker>it's not that much
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15:18<frosch123>the tuturial contains a lot of explaination, parts of it could as well go to additonal reference
15:18<frosch123>so, maybe copy them too, so they can be manually get split?
15:18<@orudge>well, everything's in tt-wiki now
15:19<@orudge>so they can be exported easily if need be
15:19<@planetmaker>ok. And the spec subset in newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net?
15:19<@planetmaker>Because that did time out yet
15:19<@orudge>it will be in a minute
15:19<@planetmaker>ok :-)
15:19<@orudge>well, newgrf.tt-wiki.net at the moment
15:19<@orudge>but it can be changed at a later date
15:19<@planetmaker>ok
15:19<@planetmaker>newgrf sounds too generic for my taste
15:20<@orudge>mmh, well, I can update that :)
15:20<@planetmaker>the user-side pages could get that as an alias
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15:20<@planetmaker>i.e. a kind of newgrf - developer's landing page within tt-wiki.net
15:20<@orudge>yep
15:22<Ammler>Alberth: ui.logtemplate
15:25<@orudge>OK, all done: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Special:AllPages
15:25<@orudge>note that most pages will require a good bit of reformatting, unfortunately, but that's pretty much unavoidable
15:25<@planetmaker>hm, my DNS doesn't know it yet
15:26<andythenorth>he
15:26<andythenorth>all the table formatting might be lost :D
15:26<@orudge>178.19.113.112 / 2a02:1680:0:1:2:1:1:7001
15:26<andythenorth>fun awaits
15:26<@orudge>andythenorth: not might, is :)
15:26<@orudge>well, it's recognisable I suppose in the edit mode
15:26<@orudge>but it renders horribly
15:27<@orudge>the existing ttdpatch wiki is still up, in read-only mode at the moment
15:27<@Alberth>Ammler: I don't have that file, and that name is also not in the python source. I want to add a '{svnrev}' to it.
15:27<@Terkhen>VarAction2Cities --> VarAction2Towns? :)
15:27<andythenorth>:o
15:27<@Terkhen>nice :)
15:27<andythenorth>media wiki supports real html
15:27<andythenorth>I didn't know that :o
15:28<@orudge>It's quite likely that you may end up wanting some MediaWiki extensions
15:28<Ammler>[21:27] <Alberth> Ammler: I don't have that file, and that name is also not in the python source. I want to add a '{svnrev}' to it. <-- needs hgsubversion
15:28<@orudge>I'll also look into sorting out sysops the like on the wiki
15:28<@Alberth>I have that, and a svn repo too :)
15:28<Ammler>then what is the issue?
15:28<@Alberth>hg log does not show the svn revision
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15:29<@Alberth>hg log --template "{rev}:{svnrev}\\n" <- is what I do currently, but that does not show the full log message
15:30<@planetmaker>with that URL I get the tt-forums
15:30<@planetmaker>s/URL/IP/
15:30<@orudge>planetmaker: I meant for you to add to your /etc/hosts :)
15:30<@orudge>or %windir%\system32\drivers\etc\hosts
15:30<frosch123>orudge: there are lots of pages missing
15:30<@orudge>frosch123: if you make a list, I can copy those over
15:30<@orudge>they'll be at www.tt-wiki.net
15:31<@Alberth>Ammler: so I can make my own version of the default template, or use what already exists. I'd prefer the latter :)
15:31<@planetmaker>oh
15:31<@orudge>frosch123: I got everything from the TOC for the newgrf specs page, at least
15:31<frosch123>e.g. the pages about action 0 default properties, or vehicle refitting
15:31<frosch123>is there some special page about broken links?
15:31<@orudge>if they weren't on the TOC, they weren't copied
15:32<frosch123>orudge: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Special:WantedPages
15:32<frosch123>your list :)
15:32<@orudge>:)
15:32<@orudge>although, some of those are tutorials, etc
15:32<@orudge>which weren't to be copied
15:32<@orudge>indeed, it looks like most of them are
15:32<@Alberth>and some may be wanted originally :)
15:33<frosch123>some places just reference those pages for a detailed explaination
15:33<frosch123>of course they can be manually copied
15:33<@orudge>then they should link externally to the tt-wiki, probably
15:33<Ammler>Alberth: well, the templates are editable, but it seems like it doesn't accept svnrev
15:34<@Alberth>which file is that?
15:34<Ammler>e.g. mercurial/templates/map-cmdline.default
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15:35<@Alberth>Ammler: thanks, this will do nicely, I just make a 'svnlog' alias with an adapted template.
15:37<Ammler>Alberth: or as I said, add logtemplate="svnrevision: {svnrev}\nchangeset: {rev}:{node|short}\n{branches}{bookmarks}{tags}{parents}user: {author}\ndate: {date|date}\nsummary: {desc|firstline}\n\n" to .hgrc
15:38<Ammler>or whatever :-)
15:38<@Alberth>oh, that's even better :)
15:39<Ammler>I didn't have hgsubversion activated as I tested the first time
15:42<Ammler>Alberth: it is a bit strange that hg convert does add svnrev, but you need hgsubversion to read it
15:45<@Alberth>Ammler: I only use hgsubversion
15:45<Ammler>yep, but hg.openttd.org doesn't
15:46<@Alberth>I have a local mirror of opendune :p
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15:49<@Alberth>and hg.openttd.org has nicely added the svn revisions in the log text :)
15:49<Ammler>hmm, can you push to svn.openttd.org with those repo?
15:51<@Alberth>I haven't tried that, and doing such a test on a public repo doesn't seem a very smart move :)
15:51<@planetmaker>orudge: is the TOC available as wikipage itself?
15:51<@orudge>planetmaker: not as such, it's autogenerated by a TikiWiki plug-in
15:52<@planetmaker>ok. I guess I'll start with that then
15:52<@orudge>sounds like a plan :)
15:52<@Alberth>Ammler: besides, I don't mind manually copying patches to a 'outgoing' repo, I often make small tweaks at that time.
15:53<Ammler>so you commit with svn, still?
15:55<@Alberth>yes
15:56<@Alberth>and I like it better than hg, as you don't have that small moment between commit and push
15:59<Ammler>well, the disadvantage is that you can't collect changesets :-)
15:59<@Alberth>indeed
16:00-!-asilv [~as@h-62-142-161-134.joensuunelli.fi] has joined #openttd
16:00<@Alberth>and a commit takes around a minute
16:00<@Alberth>mainly due to figuring out a log message :)
16:02<Wolf01>'night
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16:31<CIA-10>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22556 /trunk/src/ (industry.h industry_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Remove constness from the town pointer at industries.
16:32-!-goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-066-117-191.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
16:32<CIA-10>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22557 /trunk/src/ (10 files): -Codechange: Remove constness from AnimationBase callbacks.
16:34<CIA-10>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22558 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_spritegroup.h newgrf_station.cpp newgrf_station.h): -Codechange: Remove constness from BaseStation in ResolverObject.
16:34<CIA-10>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22559 /trunk/src/ (3 files): -Codechange: Remove constness from Station in ResolverObject.
16:35<CIA-10>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22560 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_house.cpp newgrf_house.h newgrf_spritegroup.h): -Codechange: Remove constness from House in ResolverObject.
16:36<CIA-10>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22561 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_object.cpp newgrf_object.h newgrf_spritegroup.h): -Codechange: Remove constness from Object in ResolverObject.
16:37<CIA-10>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22562 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: Remove constness from TownGetVariable.
16:37-!-Juo [~Juo@82.132.248.200] has joined #openttd
16:37<__ln__>what's wrong with constness?
16:38<__ln__>tonight
16:38<@Terkhen>it gets in the way :)
16:38<CIA-10>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22563 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Codechange: Use a function for storing values inside the persistent storage.
16:40<CIA-10>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22564 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Codechange: Rename Get and Store persistent storage functions to GetValue and StoreValue.
16:41<CIA-10>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22565 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_debug_gui.cpp table/newgrf_debug_data.h): -Codechange: Use helper functions for getting the persistent storage in the NewGRF debug GUI.
16:42<CIA-10>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22566 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_commons.cpp newgrf_commons.h newgrf_house.cpp): -Codechange: Define and use OverrideManagerBase::GetGRFID function.
16:43<andythenorth>hmm
16:43*andythenorth seeks for better way to word this: "Light in TTD graphics comes from the bottom right of the screen."
16:45-!-Djohaal [~chatzilla@189.58.17.38.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #openttd
16:45<Djohaal>moo
16:46<@Alberth>hi
16:47<@Alberth>andythenorth: that would be nice
16:47<CIA-10>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22567 /trunk/ (23 files in 5 dirs): -Codechange: Store persistent storages inside a pool.
16:49<CIA-10>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22568 /trunk/src/ (saveload/town_sl.cpp town.h): -Change: Add a list of persistent storages to the Town class.
16:49<andythenorth>not all light does come from bottom right
16:49<andythenorth>which makes it more complicated :P
16:50<CIA-10>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22569 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: [NewGRF] Persistent storage for towns.
16:50<andythenorth>Andersl has pointed out direction of plane shadow (1 o'clock)
16:50-!-r0w [~r0w@77-56-133-189.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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16:50<andythenorth>it's primarily buildings which are lit from 4-5 o'clock
16:51<CIA-10>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22570 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Store the GrfID of the caller when opening a parent window in the NewGRF debug GUI.
16:51<@Alberth>I just read that. It looks like we have several suns in the world :)
16:52<Djohaal>lol
16:53<Djohaal>hmm, may I throw a thought out of the blue?
16:53<@Alberth>@get -3
16:53<@DorpsGek>Alberth: Don't ask to ask, just ask
16:53<CIA-10>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22571 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Add: [NewGRF] Show town persistent storage in the NewGRF debug GUI.
16:53<@Terkhen>now... how should I document this? :P
16:53<@Alberth>although that one is primarily for questions :)
16:54<Djohaal>well last IRC I popped in to mention it someone got a bit sour :\
16:54<@Alberth>Terkhen: I heard we have a brand new wiki :)
16:55<@Terkhen>:)
16:55<@Terkhen>what can I do to help to set up the new wiki?
16:55<@planetmaker>:-)
16:55<@planetmaker>Main menu is done
16:55<@Terkhen>awesome :)
16:55<@planetmaker>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Main_Page
16:55<@planetmaker>sub pages all need re-formatting still, I guess
16:55<@planetmaker>but they're all there
16:56<@planetmaker>s/all/most/ ;-)
16:56<@planetmaker>But please go and add it there indeed...
16:56<@planetmaker>might make sense
16:56<@Terkhen>ok, I'll start with the formatting :)
16:56<@Alberth>Djohaal: it depends on how you bring it. demanding things usually don't go down very well
16:56<Djohaal>well I'm not demanding, I'm looking for someone :p
16:56<@Alberth>@seen someone
16:56<@DorpsGek>Alberth: someone was last seen in #openttd 34 weeks, 1 day, 3 hours, 16 minutes, and 24 seconds ago: <Someone> indeed
16:56<@Terkhen>Djohaal: ask :P
16:56<Ammler>why subdir wiki?
16:57<Djohaal>a coder who can do either C++ or C# and would be interested at working on an open source simcity 4 clone :p
16:57<@planetmaker>hahaha :-)
16:57*Terkhen already has enough with openttd :P
16:57<@planetmaker>same here
16:57<@Terkhen>planetmaker: do we have a template on how formatting should be done or something?
16:58<@planetmaker>nothing defined as of now, I think
16:58<@planetmaker>I found the existing style not that bad actually
16:58<@planetmaker>except that it misses features
16:58<@Alberth>Djohaal: you may want to post a request in the off-topic section of the forum
16:58<@Terkhen>if you have set formatting already in some page it would be helpful so I can use it as an example :)
16:59<@orudge>Ammler: because it's bad practice not to use some sort of subdir, in theory it can break certain things in MediaWiki :)
16:59<Djohaal>Alberth: well I guess it can't hurt
16:59<frosch123>orudge: shall i still create a list for you?
16:59<@planetmaker>well, what page should I give a shot, Terkhen ?
16:59<@orudge>frosch123: if there are pages missing that definitely need to be ported over, yes
16:59<@Terkhen>oh right, the index :P
16:59<@Terkhen>ok, I'll begin :)
17:00<@Alberth>Djohaal: I wouldn't really know how to find one. The best way may be to simply start yourself, and wait until one passes by.
17:00<Djohaal>Alberth: well that's an issue, at the moment we have no coders at the simcity community, and I'm not exactly on the position to learn coding (4th year of medschool :\ )
17:01<frosch123>orudge: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/272/
17:01<@orudge>frosch123: OK, I'll look those out shortly
17:01<Ammler>orudge: well, but it looks stupid
17:01<frosch123>orudge: is there also some way to port the images?
17:01-!-DAnius95 [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
17:01<@orudge>frosch123: yes, but they'll have to be done individually. You can upload them yourself as required.
17:02<@orudge>If you require any mediawiki extensions for more flexibility with images, let me know
17:02<Ammler>and afaik, you don't need hacks, it is supported per default
17:02<@orudge>Ammler: it looks just the same as Wikipedia and every wiki I've seen except the OpenTTD wiki ;)
17:02<@orudge>the /wiki/ bit is only for the nice URLs, physically everything is in /, by the way
17:02<frosch123>planetmaker: did you left out some of the additional references intentional?
17:03<@planetmaker>nope
17:03<@planetmaker>which do you mean?
17:03<DAnius95>hey what are you talking about
17:03<frosch123>textids for example
17:04<@orudge>also, planetmaker, you're now a wiki admin
17:04<@planetmaker>that was something I needed to think about. I guess it goes to the TTD defaults section
17:04<@orudge>on the newgrf wiki
17:04<frosch123>though only a subset of them is important
17:04<@planetmaker>orudge: thanks
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17:08<@Alberth>andythenorth: dairy in the snow is looking great!
17:08<andythenorth>thanks :)
17:08<andythenorth>some snow takes a long time
17:08<andythenorth>others are quick
17:08<andythenorth>the dairy was not quick :P
17:08<Ammler>orudge: then it is even more silly, imo
17:10<@orudge>Ammler: perhaps, but there are, for instance, PHP scripts that may need to be accessed directly (not, admittedly, by most users) that would be inaccessible were the rewrite to take place on / instead of /wiki/, which is why MediaWiki recommends it be set up this way
17:11<Ammler>that is if you mix different apps on same app, isn't?
17:11<Ammler>same vhost*
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17:15<@Terkhen>planetmaker: what style for tables? default ones have no borders :/
17:16<@planetmaker>Just found out on that, too :S
17:16<@planetmaker>I'd prefer simple lines
17:16<@planetmaker>Without outside border
17:16<andythenorth>1px single line
17:16<andythenorth>throughout
17:16<andythenorth>if colour is an option, try #ddd
17:17<@planetmaker>colour is an option
17:17<andythenorth>can you set th?
17:17<@planetmaker>in principle. But I need to familiarize with wiki code
17:17<@Terkhen>http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Tables <--- I like the "Simple one-pixel table border" in this tuto
17:18<@Terkhen>having to write that code everywhere will be extremely tedious though
17:18<@Terkhen>probably there is an option to make a given table style "global"
17:18<frosch123>there are table templates or something like that
17:18<@orudge>frosch123: those pages are now importede
17:18<frosch123>thanks
17:19<bodis>hmm why flying from one side of 2048 map to the other would earn only 9k
17:19<@Terkhen>hmm... ok, I'll use default ones for now and look into templates later
17:19<frosch123>btw. i would like to MediaWiki:Sidebar, but I am not allowed to :)
17:19<frosch123>*edit
17:19<@Terkhen>I'm doing VarAction2Advanced btw, just in case we are doing the same thing :P
17:19<andythenorth>there's no way to apply a class to the table?
17:20<frosch123>andythenorth: afaik you can reference a template at the start of the table
17:20*andythenorth is too old to learn media wiki :P
17:20<andythenorth>maybe I will be younger tomorrow
17:20<@Alberth>bodis: you need a faster plane :p
17:20-!-Elvang [~Elvang@ip70-190-173-60.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #openttd
17:21<Elvang>Greetings
17:21<bodis>yeah not many available in 1956
17:21<bodis>:)
17:21<@Alberth>hi
17:21<bodis>hi
17:21<@planetmaker>Terkhen: just set cellspacing=0, border="1" in the table header
17:21<bodis>but 591 is a decent speed
17:21<Elvang>Anything special I have to do in order to join stations in multiplayer?
17:21<bodis>is there a cap on how much you can earn?
17:21<@planetmaker>Terkhen: I started with Action0General
17:21<@planetmaker>So... we're not doing the same. Puh! :-)
17:22<@Alberth>bodis: yeah, something with 18 or more zeroes
17:22<@Terkhen>:)
17:22<bodis>lol
17:22<bodis>this doesnt make sense
17:22<@Terkhen>it looks nice with cellspacing=0, border="1", but we should use something global
17:22<bodis>nm
17:22<@Terkhen>as soon as we finish we look into it :P
17:22<andythenorth>could probably adjust Common.css
17:23<@Alberth>Elvang: not that I am aware of, you cannot join with another company though
17:23<Elvang>I'm holding control, but the station selection window never pops up. Other players appear to be able to join stations though...
17:23<@Alberth>bodis: try half that distance first
17:23<bodis>why would that matter?
17:24*andythenorth -> bed
17:24<@Alberth>even when you place it at 1 tile distance?
17:24<bodis>nn
17:24<@Alberth>good night andythenorth
17:24<andythenorth>night
17:24-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd []
17:24<Elvang>Yea
17:24<@Alberth>bodis: probably not, but it may give insight in what is happening
17:25<bodis>ok
17:25<bodis>:)
17:25-!-welterde [welterde@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:25<@planetmaker>I guess I'll indeed define it in common.css
17:25<@Terkhen>I chose the biggest, ugliest table :P
17:26<@planetmaker>yep :-p
17:26<@planetmaker>that's why I did NOT start there ;-)
17:26<@Alberth>Elvang: the only thing I can think of is that you have the join stations settings switched off. I don't know whether it is a client or a server settings
17:26<frosch123>planetmaker: what's "refit paths"?
17:27<Elvang>"Allow building adjacent stations" right?
17:27<@planetmaker>your refit image
17:27<Elvang>Its listed green, while the "not directly adjacent" option is red.
17:27<@planetmaker>please choose a better name :-)
17:27<frosch123>ok, then i'll change that to the currently imported page, ok?
17:27<@planetmaker>yep, please.
17:27<@Terkhen>Elvang: no, allow to join directly adyacent
17:27<@Terkhen>adjacent*
17:27<Elvang>Yea, its enabled
17:28<@Terkhen>but you said that "join not directly adjacent" was red
17:28<@Alberth>'adjacent stations' sounds like they are placed right next to each other
17:28<Elvang>Right
17:29<@Alberth>iirc, that is for building your stations directly next to the competitor
17:29<Eddi|zuHause> [12.06.2011 21:00] <orudge> and newgrf.tt-wiki.net (or grfspecs.tt-wiki.net, whatever you want to call it :P) can be the new specs wiki <-- may i suggest nfospecs.tt-wiki.net?
17:30<@planetmaker>Terkhen: what name should the table style have?
17:30<Elvang>I don't see any other options in Advanced Settings that are related to station joining
17:30<@Terkhen>Elvang: that setting should be green
17:30<@Terkhen>planetmaker: I don't know :)
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>might neatly integrate with "nmlspecs" next to it as well
17:30<Elvang>The directly adjacent one is, the non adjacent one is red
17:31<@Terkhen>non adjacent -> green
17:33<Elvang>Can't change it, I'm assuming clients are stuck with whatever settings the server has set
17:33<@Alberth>that is very well possible
17:33<Elvang>Other players on the server are able to join their stations though...
17:33<@Terkhen>Elvang: are you sure? or are they using station walk?
17:34<Elvang>Station walk?
17:34<@Terkhen>build and demolish station tiles until you get a station as separated as you want
17:35-!-Intexon_ [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has joined #openttd
17:35<Elvang>I don't think so, one player has several 2x14 rail stations set up in this game
17:36<Elvang>Last map a player had bus stations joined to all his rail stations as well (same server)
17:36-!-xi23 [~xi23@ip-85-161-75-68.eurotel.cz] has joined #openttd
17:36<@Terkhen>strange
17:36<Elvang>Eh
17:37<Elvang>Just found some bus stations joined to an airport, about 8 tiles apart
17:37<@Terkhen>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VarAction2Advanced <--- something like this?
17:38<Elvang>That link directed at me?
17:38<frosch123>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/index.php?title=Action0Cargos <- that page is completely broken
17:38<@Terkhen>Elvang: no
17:38<frosch123>half is missing
17:39<Elvang>Ah, k
17:39<@Terkhen>Elvang: the only thing I can think that might have happened is that the setting was enabled before and later it was desabled
17:39<@planetmaker>Terkhen: yes. But use the default wikitable class without other frills
17:39<@planetmaker>I'll try to change the default
17:39<@Terkhen>ok :)
17:39<@planetmaker>to something like that
17:40<@orudge>frosch123: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0Cargos <-- looks the same as the old page to me
17:40<@planetmaker>thus just class="wikitable" in the table header
17:40<@orudge>frosch123: obviously, formatting is messed up, but content seems to be the same
17:40-!-Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:41<Elvang>Possible, wouldn't "Allow building adjacent stations" allow me to join touching stations though?
17:41<frosch123>orudge: no, half of 10,11,12, complete 13 and 14 are missing
17:41<@Terkhen>Elvang: no, that settings allows you to build stations adjacent to other player's companies
17:41<Elvang>I just tried that, got a red message box saying I'm building to close
17:42<@Terkhen>I won't be doing more formatting today, it is too late :)
17:42<@orudge>frosch123: strange. Well, you can copy them out of the original wiki; I guess the markup converter somehow ended up deleting them. :/
17:42<frosch123>planetmaker: Terkhen: then please be aware that the pages might miss content :)
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17:43<@orudge>I won't be deleting the original wiki any time soon, although it is now read-only
17:43<@planetmaker>hm, they do?
17:43<@Terkhen>ok, I have been checking each line against the original wiki
17:43<frosch123>orudge: planetmaker: i would like to edit the sidebar, but only mods are allowed to :)
17:43<@planetmaker>what is missing?
17:44<@orudge>frosch123: I'll give you admin for now too, ideally will have to sort out admin/mods properly at some point in the future
17:44<frosch123>planetmaker: action0 cargos misses sections on 10,11,12 (half), 13 and 14
17:44<@orudge>all of the revision history is there, so I really don't know why it's gone missing
17:44<frosch123>planetmaker: i just wanted to link the cargo classes from the main page :s
17:44<@orudge>I guess when updating a page, just compare it against the original one and ensure it's all fine
17:45<frosch123>planetmaker: btw. i added a section "NewGRF commons" to the main page, for stuff which is not exaclty spec, but agreed on
17:45<@planetmaker>ok
17:45<@Terkhen>planetmaker: once that the class for tables is set, we should paste a few example links at the transport tycoon wiki thread so anyone interested on formatting can get to it :)
17:45<@planetmaker>I guess I can't grant you elevated edit rights, frosch123
17:45<@orudge>frosch123: you're an admin now
17:45<@Terkhen>brb
17:46<@planetmaker>Terkhen: it then should suffice to just use class=wikitable and that's it
17:46<@planetmaker>shouldn't there be at least on other burocrat, too, orudge ?
17:47<@Terkhen>from the "other side" maybe :P
17:47<@orudge>planetmaker: eventually, yes. Ideally need to figure this out properly though rather than just appointing random people at the moment ;)
17:47<@planetmaker>yep :-)
17:47<Elvang>Thought it might just be that server, but I looked for another that had joined stations going on; couldn't do it on that one either <_<
17:48<@Yexo>Elvang: do you know you need to press ctrl to build adjacent stations?
17:48<Elvang>Yes
17:48<Elvang>I do it regularly in sp
17:48<Elvang>Just for the life of my can't get it to work in mp :(
17:48<Elvang>me*
17:48<@Yexo>if it works for you in sp and not in mp the most likely reason is that the server has turned the setting of
17:49<@Yexo>got an example of a server where it doesn't work?
17:49<Elvang>Others are doing it though in the same server I am in
17:49<Elvang>Yea
17:49<@Yexo>hmm, that is strange
17:51<Elvang>Heres the settings the server is using, along with an attempt to build a station next to a competitors: http://i51.tinypic.com/2nvypsg.jpg
17:51-!-Amis_ [~Amis@5400C2AD.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:52<Elvang>He built those (bus station joined to airport, couple rail stations) after I joined while I was trying to join some, so I don't think someone was flipping the settings on/off
17:52<@Yexo>which server is that?
17:53<@Yexo>I can't reproduce it, so I'd like to try and join that server to see if it works there for me
17:53<Elvang>There a way to copy server info?
17:53<@Yexo>name of the server is enough
17:53-!-KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-248-242.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:53*Terkhen does another page :P
17:54<Elvang># www.n-ice.org #2 [Metropolis Goal, 1975-2040]#
17:54<frosch123>planetmaker: updated the sidebar, comments?
17:54-!-asilv [~as@h-62-142-161-134.joensuunelli.fi] has quit [Quit: asilv]
17:54<@planetmaker>myself? Not yet
17:54<frosch123>no, i just did :) do you want to comment on the sections i choosed :)
17:55<@planetmaker>main page, community portal, current events, recent changes, random page?
17:55<frosch123>not sure whether there should be as prominent links to nml or the devzone
17:55<@planetmaker>I didn't quite look at it initially :-P
17:56<@planetmaker>Hm... might make sense actually
17:56<frosch123>planetmaker: reload some page, so you get a new one :)
17:56<@Terkhen>the changes appear in any page except the first one for me
17:58<@planetmaker>Reload first didn't work. But yes. Now that you asked: I think DevZone and NML docs make sense to me
17:58<@planetmaker>bananas maybe?
17:59<frosch123>quite some stuff is already explained under "Tools"
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18:00<@planetmaker>hm. yes
18:01<@planetmaker>Dunno... Maybe add a link to the DevZone. They get many free and extensive examples there :-)
18:02<@planetmaker>but then... that's also under 'tools'...
18:04<frosch123>#openttdcoop is too long, i just put Development Zone :)
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18:17<frosch123>night
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18:25<Hirundo>Terkhen: If I get r22569 correctly, you always need to explicitly set register 100 before reading/writing to town storage, right? (assuming no grf with id 0)
18:26<@Terkhen>Hirundo: yes, if the register is not set you can't access town storage at all
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18:27<@Terkhen>a newgrf only has write access to the storage of its own grfid, but can read any storage
18:27<@Terkhen>and items that are still not built cannot access town storage at all
18:28<@Terkhen>that's the idea :)
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18:40<@Terkhen>planetmaker: is the table template supposed to work now?
18:42<@planetmaker>not yet, I'm afraid
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18:50<Ammler>maybe we can also move some generic guide things from the devzone to the new wiki
18:50<@Terkhen>good luck with the template, I'm going to bed :)
18:50<@Terkhen>good night
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19:22<Elvang>How big a penalty is there for pathing through the back of a Path Signal?
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19:42<CIA-10>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22572 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix: MSVC performance warning (assigning int to bool).
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>Elvang: go to the ingame console and type "list_settings pf.yapf.rail"
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>1 tile = 100
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19:55<Elvang>Ah, thanks Eddi|zuHause
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19:55<+michi_cc>orudge: The new wiki says my username ("Michi_cc") is invalid, likely because MediaWiki silently converts _ to spaces. I know TB had the same troubles when unifying the OpenTTD accounts, but I don't know what exactly he did to fix it.
19:57<Elvang>Hmm. My trains refuse to use any depot with a path signal infront of it, even though they can path through it albeit with a penalty...
19:58<Eddi|zuHause>there is a limit on the maximum penalty for automatically choosing a depot
19:59<Elvang>It listed 1500(15 tiles), and theres a depot every ~20 or so but they ignore all of them until I remove the path signal
19:59<Elvang>They'll path to them only if I tell them to head for depot :(
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>yes, the path signal has a quite big penalty, so the distance is very small
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>the limit does not apply to manual depot orders
20:01<Elvang>Shouldn't they still path to one of the depots if their overdue for servicing, even if all the depots have path signals infront of them?
20:01<glx>IIRC it doesn't apply to service orders either
20:01<Elvang>they're*
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>Elvang: no, the limit prevents them from choosing any of the depots
20:01<Elvang>:(
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>Elvang: just increase the limit.
20:02<Elvang>On multiplayer
20:02<glx>use service orders
20:02<Elvang>That'd send the entire fleet to depots regardless whether they need servicing or not, wouldn't it?
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>i thought you could change pathfinder limits even as client
20:03<glx>no service orders are for service :)
20:03<Elvang>Oh, you meant in the orders list
20:04<Eddi|zuHause>Elvang: "Go To" and ctrl+click on the depot
20:04<Eddi|zuHause>yes, in the orders list
20:05<Elvang>Gah, so I'll have to select all my depots on this path?
20:06<Eddi|zuHause>you're better off just using no path signals
20:06<Eddi|zuHause>they're silly there anyway
20:06<glx>http://wiki.openttd.org/Orders#Service
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20:06<Elvang>It opens my route up to crashes :(
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>i meant: no signal at all
20:07<Elvang>I know
20:07<glx>depots have internal signal
20:07<Elvang>:o
20:07<Elvang>Didn't know that
20:11<Eddi|zuHause>you know this problem when a cat leaves, and you have enough hair leftovers to build another cat?
20:11<joho>oh, so THAT's how kittens are made?
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21:20*Democracy ***GENERAL STRIKE 6/15/11***SOLIDARITY***
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21:22*Democracy ***GENERAL STRIKE 6/15/11***SOLIDARITY***\
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---Logclosed Mon Jun 13 00:00:52 2011