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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-06-13

---Logopened Mon Jun 13 00:00:52 2011
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02:04<@Terkhen>good morning
02:05<Pikka>gode moneing
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02:14<CIA-10>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22573 /trunk/src/saveload/afterload.cpp: -Fix (r22567): Fix operator precedence.
02:28<CIA-10>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22574 /trunk/src/newgrf_commons.cpp: -Fix (r22566): GetGRFID was using a wrong return type.
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03:01<CIA-10>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22575 /trunk/src/newgrf_commons.h: -Fix (r22574): Compilation error.
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03:35<CIA-10>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22576 /trunk/Makefile.msvc: -Add: bundle_pdb command to put the pdb into the bundles directory as well
03:43<CIA-10>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22577 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix: MSVC64 compile warning
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04:27<CIA-10>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22578 /trunk/src/newgrf_commons.cpp: -Fix: another MSVC compile warning
04:28<CIA-10>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22579 /trunk/Makefile.msvc: -Fix (r22576): copy-paste error :(
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05:27<@orudge>michi_cc: mmh, I'll have to see if there's something I can do to rectify that
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05:46<frosch123>Terkhen: planetmaker: hgnmu128 is right, there should be a page about the structure of the pages
05:46<@planetmaker>yes he is
05:47<@Terkhen>yes, but we are mostly converting old to new now
05:47<frosch123>VarAction2Vehicles, Action0General and Action0(Vehicles) are already different :)
05:47<@Terkhen>huh, let me check :P
05:47<frosch123>Terkhen: one uses (Introduction, Properties, Comments) on toplevel
05:47<frosch123>the other uses Introduction Properties, Description
05:47<frosch123>and the third does not use any at all
05:48<@Terkhen>makes sense I guess
05:48<frosch123>oh, Action0RoadVehicles is also different
05:48<frosch123>it has no Introduction, but something else
05:48<@Terkhen>right now I was not thinking much on style, just on legibility
05:49<@Terkhen>just blind conversion of lost format
05:49<@planetmaker>that's what I mostly did, too
05:49<@planetmaker>But... Let's come up with a style
05:49<@Terkhen>but doing right it from the starts sounds like less headaches later :P
05:49<frosch123>yes, but it is not obvious what to turn in to headings, as that works different in tiki
05:50<@Terkhen>the original pages did not follow the same style either, so we will need to change things as we convert
05:52<@planetmaker>quite. For the (already) "fixed" action0 pages I used a semi-automatic fix script
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05:53<frosch123> <- a combination of the currently used styles
05:53<@planetmaker>with sed -f wikised.txt filename > output
05:53<frosch123>how about that?
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05:53<@planetmaker>looks good to me
05:54<frosch123>"= Properties =" would be replaced by "= Syntax =" for other actions
05:55<frosch123>which only states the formal syntax without description
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05:56<@Terkhen>interesting script :)
05:57<@Terkhen>frosch123: looks nice :)
05:57<frosch123>planetmaker: what does 'd' do? i only know 'D'
05:57<@planetmaker>delete line
05:57<frosch123>that's 'D' :o
05:57<@planetmaker>D is a multi-line thing IIRC
05:57<@planetmaker>similar to N
05:58<@planetmaker>which deletes also...
05:58<@planetmaker>the D
05:58<frosch123>ah, i see, same difference as p and P
05:58<frosch123>D only deletes up to \n, d deletes everything
05:59<@planetmaker>frosch123: you seem to be somewhat proficient with multi-line, I haven't yet figured it: I need to replace \n|- by |-
05:59<@planetmaker>but I didn't yet manage
05:59<@planetmaker>and would help also quite a bit ;-)
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>vi can do that ;)
06:00<@planetmaker>with \n = newline character
06:00<@planetmaker>and I do not want to type that everywhere, but it needs to be a script
06:00<Eddi|zuHause>how to use vi non-interactively is left as an exercise to the reader :p
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>i always wanted to find that out, but never was in the mood to
06:01<@Terkhen>I guess that stuff like variational action 2 variables and action 0 properties would need their own format too
06:02<frosch123>planetmaker: i guess just insert a N at the top
06:02<@planetmaker>Terkhen: for varaction2 the only difference to action0 is IMHO s/properties/variables/
06:02<frosch123>and replace all D with N
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06:02<@planetmaker>frosch123: I don't use a D anywhere :-P
06:02<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: batch-vim == sed :)
06:02<@Terkhen>varaction2 also has a "format" field and a table explaining it
06:02<frosch123>err, d with D
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: but sed is line-based, it would naturally have trouble with multiline-stuff
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: vi is the only program i have ever found that can do 's/\n\n/\n/'
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>(or similar)
06:03<@Alberth>it gets somewhat tricky yes :) it does have an internal buffer though
06:04<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: '/^$/ D' trivial
06:04<@Alberth>that removes more :)
06:05<frosch123>you want to exactly half the empty lines? :p
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i meant this as the smallest example i could think of. there are more complicated ones i tried to do in the past
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>and i couldn't get them to work with sed
06:09<@planetmaker>great frosch123 :-)
06:09<@Terkhen> <--- style for properties/variables
06:10<CIA-10>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22580 /trunk/bin/ai/regression/ -Change: make 'make regression' return an error when it fails
06:12<@planetmaker>actually, Terkhen, if properly defined, we don't need to define a table class
06:12<@planetmaker>thus you can leave out that piece
06:12<@Terkhen>oh, that would be nice :)
06:12<@planetmaker>works already ;-)
06:13<@planetmaker>while I was sleeping I must have magically learnt how to use firebug - and then it was dead easy to get it right
06:14<@planetmaker>Terkhen: table headings are best used ! and !! instead of | and ||
06:14<@planetmaker>you can write one line of a table in one text line if you separate entries with || or !!
06:15<@planetmaker>that makes sources IMHO easier to read
06:15<@Terkhen>hmm... if I remove class="wikitable" from VarAction2Advanced tables, they revert to the old, no borders format
06:15<@Terkhen>ok, I'll try that :)
06:16<@planetmaker>^ I guess... just define style there
06:17<@planetmaker>and if we have something which repeatedly needs a formating different from default, give it a separate class name
06:17<@planetmaker>that class can then be given the required attirbutes in the common.css
06:20<@planetmaker>Terkhen: frosch123, orudge one needs to look out very careful for pages which contain formula like Action0Trains. There the conversion obviously "ate" a number of subsequent properties. I fixed that there, of course, but watch out :-)
06:21<@planetmaker>Terkhen: refresh?
06:22<@planetmaker>My tables w/o style all have a border...
06:22<@Terkhen>true :D
06:25<frosch123>planetmaker: what are Action2 properties? :p
06:26<frosch123>planetmaker: updated that page, did you mean that?
06:26<@planetmaker>of course :-)
06:27<frosch123>Action2 -> VarAction2
06:27<frosch123>Properties -> Variables
06:28<@planetmaker>thanks for the fix
06:32<@Terkhen>tables are corrected, now I'll correct the style :P
06:33<@planetmaker>I added a table style to the style page... I guess it could be default. Might not make sense everywhere, though I used it everywhere so far, but there are two tables where it doesn't look too nice.
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06:35<@Terkhen>IMO callbacks should be organized as varaction2 and action0 are organized
06:35<CIA-10>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22581 /trunk/Makefile.msvc: -Add: 'make regression' support to Makefile.msvc
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>imho "callbacks" should be split between the features they apply to
06:36<frosch123>bad idea
06:37<frosch123>animation callbacks are the same for all features, just different numberas
06:37<@Terkhen>those could go to a common page, as done for common vehicle properties now
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>and one thing that was missing from the old wiki (or that was impossible to find) was a page "default vehicle properties"
06:38<frosch123>Yes, there should be general pages about Animation, Spritelayouts with bounding boxes and such. but that is something for later :)
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>and same with industries
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06:39<@planetmaker>hm... Terkhen frosch123 about version limitations: with table classes it's possible to hide by default that row, but unhide it upon reader request
06:39<frosch123>planetmaker: imo something for later
06:39<@planetmaker>but doint that with the default table style might not be a good choice
06:39<@planetmaker>frosch123: yes. But we then should use now NOT use the default but *some* style
06:40<@Terkhen>yes, I agree that changing callback organization is secondary right now :)
06:40<frosch123>imo explicit revisions are something for the detailed description, the summaries should have some icon-tags ("ottd 0.6", "ottd 1.1", "ttdp 2.0", "ttdp 2.5", "ttdp 2.6")
06:40<@Terkhen>how old is last ttdp stable?
06:40<@planetmaker>older than I am around here
06:40<@orudge>Terkhen: 2003-ish, I think
06:41<frosch123>2.0 is October 24, 2003:
06:41<@Terkhen>then saying "ttdp 2.6" does not says much
06:41<frosch123>2.5 beta 9 is October 29, 2006.
06:41<@orudge>in comparison, tt-forums was launched in October 2002
06:41<frosch123>Terkhen: "ttdp 2.6" means nightly
06:41<@Terkhen>oh :P
06:41<@Terkhen>that should work I guess
06:41<frosch123>just like "ottd 1.2" would mean nightly
06:41<@orudge>the eternal nightly
06:42<@planetmaker>well, my question was rather: should we use a separate table class for properties and variables?
06:42<@planetmaker>even if means nothing now?
06:42<frosch123>planetmaker: i guess that is also changeable later
06:43<frosch123>but i do not know about table classes :) so, if it is easy, just add it :)
06:43<@planetmaker>it just means to add a class="classname" to a table
06:43<@planetmaker>nothing else
06:44<@planetmaker>then the classname's style can be changed w/o source edits anywhere except the css
06:44<@planetmaker>including collapsing / showing columns etc - IIRC.
06:44<@planetmaker>I'm just learning this stuff atm, too
06:46<CIA-10>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22582 /trunk/src/cargopacket.cpp: -Fix: Don't increment STL iterators after they've been invalidated.
06:46<@planetmaker>I just wonder whether it can be avoided for (some) tables to be followed by a 2nd table stating the version for half the lines in the preceeding table
06:48<@Terkhen>planetmaker: adding a class makes sense :)
06:48<@Terkhen>and I would worry about stuff like versions later, once that everything is converted properly
06:50<@planetmaker>ok. Classes: a0prop and a2var?
06:50<@planetmaker>(rest default as now)
06:50<@Terkhen>ok :)
06:51<@peter1138>duplicating the newgrf specs?
06:51<@Terkhen>moving them to a new home :P
06:52<@peter1138>those tables need some padding :S
06:52<@planetmaker>peter1138: yes, style will be adjusted when the big conversion issues are gone
06:52<@planetmaker>Feel free to play with it, though
06:53<@peter1138>i don't think i have access to the stylesheets
06:53<@planetmaker>I suggest to install firebug - then you can test all locally on one of those pages, live editing the used CSS
06:54<@planetmaker>and then the CSS can be changed on which you probably can edit, too
06:57<@peter1138>no, i can't
07:04<@planetmaker>you can still find out a good CSS style, though. I'll then be happy to implement it, if you tell me
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07:13<@planetmaker>orudge: are the images also imported. And if so: what's their path / name wrt the originals?
07:13<@orudge>planetmaker: no, you'll have to pull those over manually
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07:13<@peter1138>heh, well, change the padding: 0; to padding: 0 5px; is enough to the tables look better
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07:24<@orudge>michi_cc: you there?
07:24<+michi_cc>I am
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07:31<@planetmaker>frosch123: Terkhen seems, we should grante sections generally one = more... or the primary ones have the same size as page title...
07:32<frosch123>isn't that configurable somewhere?
07:32<@Terkhen>probably, yes
07:33<@planetmaker>I just found that in the mediawiki descriptions on "how to use"...
07:36<frosch123>oh, ok, when that is the official way...
07:36<frosch123>then it is ok for us
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07:39<frosch123>added padding as suggested by peter
07:40<@orudge>michi_cc: you should now be able to log into tt-wiki and the grf wiki
07:41<+michi_cc>Thanks, works.
07:42<@planetmaker>hm... what about style for code / examples...
07:53<CIA-10>OpenTTD: frosch * r22583 /trunk/src/newgrf_storage.cpp: -Fix [FS#4640] (r22551): Allocate _changed_storage_arrays on the heap, so the point of destruction is well defined ('never' for now).
07:56<JVassie_>didnt realise you were discussing wiki in here :)
07:57<frosch123>planetmaker: do you have an updated sed script for conversion?
07:57<frosch123>and orudge: is there some way to automatically run that over all pages?
07:58<@planetmaker>yes / no. it's two-stage, now, frosch123
07:58<JVassie_>orudge, is there the possibility of addign a 'todo' list? Seen them on wiki sites before, though not sure if they were mediawiki
07:58<frosch123>JVassie_: what kind of list?
07:58<@planetmaker>Just adding your change to my script failed. Thus called twice within a bash file:
07:58<JVassie_>a todo list, ie a list of thigns to be done
07:58<@orudge>JVassie_: sure, just add a page yourself. perhaps
07:59<@orudge>frosch123: I believe one can get and install mediawiki bots, but I'd rather not do that at this precise moment. I'd probably manage to obliterate everything. :p
07:59<frosch123>i just kind of doubt anyone would do the work for ttdpatch manual :p
07:59<@orudge>it's my intention to do that, at least to start
07:59<@planetmaker> and
07:59<@orudge>do you have a link to your script?
08:00<@planetmaker>it's crude but does its job mostly.
08:01<@planetmaker>copy source into file. Run script. Edit output, mainly replace the \n|- which remain from links by nothingness and fix code / example style
08:01<@planetmaker>and then paste back output into wiki
08:01<frosch123>planetmaker: what is "/''''/d" for?
08:01<frosch123>isn't it kind of risky to delete a whole line with that?
08:02<@planetmaker>Removing the first line which is a repetition of the title
08:02<@planetmaker>maybe risky, but I don't think that text format exist elsewhere
08:02<@planetmaker>without that line you have nearly two identical first lines
08:03<@planetmaker>one formated that way, the other as =...=
08:06<@planetmaker>this script is written on a "worked so far without big mistakes basis. No guarantee for other pages" ;-)
08:08<@planetmaker>JVassie_: I recon the TODO is currently longer than the DONE list ;-)
08:08<JVassie_>of course :D
08:09<George>orudge> small team in #openttd working on tidying up the specifications
08:09<George>Let me know who tis team is?
08:09<@orudge>George: they're right here
08:10<George>I suppose
08:10<@planetmaker>hm... the script currently doesn't get right the section level
08:10<George>I just want to know, how many are they
08:10<@Yexo>orudge: if you enable the API one can run bots from anywhere, at least for accounts with the bot flag set
08:10<frosch123>George: everyone here is only working on the specs
08:10<George>and do they have any plan about what whoould they do and wnen?
08:10*orudge is looking at the TTDPatch manual just now
08:10<@Yexo>currently I run such a bot occasionally for the openttd wiki to manage the links between translated versions of the same page
08:11<@planetmaker>Yexo: that might be useful... running a bot on all (not touched) pages with a script similar to what I just posted
08:12<George>frosch123: me doubts that you would fix the ECS section :))
08:12<@planetmaker>that's right. The ECS section goes though not to the newgrf spec wiki but the general tt-wiki
08:13<JVassie_>they are seperate
08:13<George>For me NEWGRF wiki is a part of tt-wiki
08:13<@planetmaker>there's both, and Yes, they're separate
08:13<@planetmaker>they're separate wikis, though
08:13<@Yexo>planetmaker: here is the script I use:
08:13<George>they can have different URLs, but they are a part of one project
08:14<@planetmaker>though, of course, they may and should be linked where appropriate
08:14<JVassie_>depends on the definition of project, really
08:14<@Yexo>together with the framework from:
08:14<George>But I started with the other questin
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08:15<George>WHO is the team working on tiding the new wiki? How many are them?
08:15<@planetmaker>those who volunteer to spend time on it
08:15<JVassie_>there is no fixed team George
08:15<@planetmaker>and there was no dicision made anytime that you you and you do the work
08:16<JVassie_>orudge, is it worth linking to the todo list from the 'links' section on the left hand side?
08:16<@orudge>JVassie_: could be for now, or at least on the main page
08:16<@planetmaker>and actually also the style guide
08:16<JVassie_>i presume only an admin can edit the links section
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08:17<JVassie_>the main page has a logn list of grfspecs information, probably best to keep it seperate i guess
08:17<frosch123>JVassie_: there is a wiki section
08:18<@planetmaker>np. If you can do it, I don't have to :-P
08:18<frosch123>planetmaker: not everyone can edit that :)
08:18<@planetmaker>ok... if you can't, I will :-)
08:18<JVassie_>cant edit it :p
08:18<JVassie_>is the todo link
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08:19<frosch123>JVassie_: i do not understand the TODO list :s
08:19<JVassie_>there is definitely room for discussion on its layout and use
08:19<frosch123>do you want to put wiki pages on it, which somone is working on ?
08:20<@planetmaker>that should be part of the style page then or its talk one
08:20<@planetmaker>Yexo: how is that script called? Just python scriptname?
08:20<frosch123>currently you work 5 - 15 minutes on a page, what's the point on noting you are working on it
08:20<@Yexo>yes, but you need the pywikipedia framework
08:20<JVassie_>How do you think it would be best to use the todo list then? Just a large unordered list?
08:20<JVassie_>true frosch123
08:20<@planetmaker>hm... right. How do I install that python framework?
08:20<frosch123>i guess it is too early for that
08:20<@Yexo>svn co
08:21<@planetmaker>oh it has an svn... hm, page bottom tells me :-P
08:21<JVassie_>i wasnt intending to use it as svn
08:21<JVassie_>more a means for people to chuck their thoughts/ideas/etc down for others to see#
08:21<JVassie_>also giving those who wish to contribute an idea of what needs doing
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08:22<@planetmaker>JVassie_: currently it mostly need fixing all pages for syntax and checking for correctness that no content got lost
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08:22<JVassie_>i would guess so yeah
08:23<frosch123>JVassie_: anyway, added
08:23<JVassie_>thanks frosch123 :)
08:23<JVassie_>hi andy
08:23<frosch123>it might come at hand somewhen, even if not now :)
08:24<JVassie_>as planetmaker said, the majority of the work now is syntax edits and checking content
08:24<@Yexo>planetmaker: I use r9011 with this diff:
08:24<@Yexo>that includes the python file I linked earlier
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08:26<@planetmaker>the "bot" itself?
08:31<JVassie_>Ill get to work on the cargotypes page :D
08:32<frosch123>JVassie_: as a hint, you should always compare the page to the original at
08:32<JVassie_>Thanks, got it open in adjacent tab :)
08:32<frosch123>sometimes whole paragraphs are missing in the conversion
08:33<JVassie_>dang, really?
08:33<frosch123>currently i am working on industry default props
08:33<frosch123>there are two screens of tables missing
08:35<@planetmaker>yes, happens
08:45<George>suggestion. ( tables would be more readable if there would be some space between the text and the table borders|lines
08:46*Terkhen agrees
08:46<frosch123>there is
08:46<frosch123>refresh your caches
08:47<@Terkhen>ok :P
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08:49<George>Is it possible to put the image from the other site in text on new wiki?
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08:51<@orudge>George: they'll need to be reuploaded
08:51<@orudge> to upload an image
08:52<George>that means in case the image change in the source it has to be reuploaded?
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08:56<George>orudge> For more complex pages, you may wish to use this script with this data file to try to tidy up the page first.
08:57<George>Can there be a script to fix tables?
08:57<@orudge>George: well, I believe that script does that, to some degree. planetmaker is the one who worked on it, he can maybe help you with it
08:58<@orudge>brb anyway, going to get some lunch
08:59<@planetmaker>well, the script needs bash currently
08:59<@planetmaker>[13:59] planetmaker and
08:59<@Terkhen>would it be possible to do a small helper page that applies the script to a text?
09:00<@planetmaker>Terkhen: rather I'd suggest to take yexo's translation's script and run it as python script
09:00<@planetmaker>mostly it needs replacing the translation routine by the regex found in my script
09:01<@Terkhen>hmm... will it break corrected pages?
09:01<@planetmaker>I'm not very skilled at python, thus it might take long(er)
09:01<@planetmaker>you'd point it to the pages you want fixed.
09:01<@planetmaker>that's how I understand it.
09:02<@planetmaker>If *someone* would modify that python script to run regex defined somewhere in there, I'll happily also continue with making the regex better.
09:02<@planetmaker>Maybe Alberth is out of work :-P
09:02<@Terkhen>so... you add a mark to a page and it gets automatically converted? sweet :)
09:03<George> - shouldn't text go after *, not a line below?
09:03<@planetmaker>or yexo still has the time. Not all regex, but just that it can be adopted?
09:03<JVassie_>George, refresh
09:03<@planetmaker>Terkhen: like that, yes
09:04<George>> so... you add a mark to a page and it gets automatically converted? sweet :) <- and why it is not done for all the pages?
09:06<George>planetmaker: Can you apply the script to all the ECS pages?
09:06<@planetmaker>George: because that script simply doesn't yet exist
09:06<George>orudge: <George> that means in case the image change in the source it has to be reuploaded? <- so what? It should?
09:07<George>planetmaker: script simply doesn't yet exist <- let me know when it would run :)
09:08<George>JVassie_: - 2-nd and third lines are the same. was it intended?
09:09<JVassie_>2nd and 3rd liens of what sorry?
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09:14<@Alberth>planetmaker: what do you need?
09:15<@planetmaker>Alberth: I need basically an adoption of yexo's wiki bot to just throw some regex on the page source - and post the modified source again
09:15<@planetmaker>his bot fixes the translation cross-link in our openttd wiki currently
09:15<JVassie_>I *love* regex
09:15<@planetmaker>I've an idea how to adopt it...
09:16<George>2nd and 3rd liens of what sorry?- of the page
09:16<JVassie_>Still dont understand you George
09:16<@planetmaker>Alberth: it's svn co with
09:17<@planetmaker>the python script he runs is then
09:17<@planetmaker>which I'd base this new wiki bot on...
09:18<@Alberth>planetmaker: sounds complicated, I have never done anything web :p
09:19<George>as you can see on the page copy, line (they got numbers 3 and 4) are the same. why?
09:19<@planetmaker>:-) Nor did I. But as it looks that framework does nearly everything for you
09:19<@orudge>George: do you mean images that are currently uploaded to the TTDPatch wiki? You'll need to copy them over. If you want to change them, then you can upload a new version to replace the existing one.
09:19<@planetmaker>and all which basically needs doing is probably in the diff
09:19<JVassie_>George, doesnt look like that when I look at
09:19<@planetmaker>just in the proper way to not translate stuff but just do *something* with the text
09:19<JVassie_>Looks just fine to me, no duplicate lines
09:20<George>orudge: no, uploaded to the differnt places
09:20<@orudge>I don't think that's currently allowed in the new wiki, it may be possible to enable it, but it would depend what it is, I suppose. It's generally better to have everything uploaded locally if possible.
09:22<George>orudge: better to have everything uploaded locally if possible <- that means one more task to control for updates and fixing wiki. Can't say that is the easiest solution
09:22<@orudge>well, I can look into what can be done later on
09:22<George>We already have the same problem with GRFs
09:22<@orudge>I'm sure it should be possible to enable external images
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09:23<George>uploading them both to bananas and the site is not the handy task
09:25<George>Looks just fine to me, no duplicate lines - can someone else check that?
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09:39<Qantourisc>Does anyone know a nice multiplayer server ?
09:40<@Terkhen>hi Qantourisc
09:40<Qantourisc>Terkhen: hello
09:41<@planetmaker>for certain definitions of 'nice': yes
09:41<Ammler>Qantourisc: prefixes "!" are quality signs, the more a server name has, the better
09:41<Qantourisc>For some reason ... i doubt that
09:42*Terkhen only knows spanish ones and openttdcoop :P
09:42<@planetmaker>so do I ;-)
09:42<Qantourisc>I don't think i'll be allowed on a openttdcoop server :)
09:42<@planetmaker>why do you think so?
09:42<Qantourisc>Crashes 2 trains today :)
09:42<TWerkhoven>welcome server allows everyone their own company
09:42<Qantourisc>also, tomutch of an investment on my side
09:42<@planetmaker>our servers are open to everyone who plays by our rules
09:42<TWerkhoven>you can crash trains all day if you want
09:43<Qantourisc>Ow nice ...
09:43<@planetmaker>and the welcome server is a sort-of sandbox one.
09:43<Ammler>the passworded servers have just "dummy" protections, but theoretically everyone can join (passwords are somewhere public()
09:44<@planetmaker>:-) indeed
09:45<@planetmaker>the PWs just make sure to avoid complete anonymity
09:45<Ammler>which is needed for cooperation
09:47<Chris_Booth>some passworded servers are invite only
09:47<Chris_Booth>but I am not sure how you would ever get and invite
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09:48<Qantourisc>mwea sorry
09:49<Qantourisc>i have a hard time enjoying anything lately
09:50<Chris_Booth>Qantourisc: are you a cynical person?
09:51<Qantourisc>Not by nature
09:59<Ammler>Chris_Booth: I was speaking about the coop passworded servers
09:59<Chris_Booth>coop only has 1 public passworded server IIRC
10:01<JVassie_>at lst
10:01<JVassie_>CargoTypes done :p
10:01<JVassie_>big ass table..
10:02<@planetmaker>quite :-)
10:02<@planetmaker>I hope you didn't do all that in the browser?
10:02*planetmaker found it always easier to copy stuff to a good text editor, do changes there and paste back
10:02<@planetmaker>better search & replace tools there :-) yep
10:03*orudge is working his way through the TTDPatch manual
10:03<@orudge>for the 2 people who may want to use it ;)
10:03<Ammler>planetmaker: ff has extensions to transfer textareas to editor
10:04<@planetmaker>Ammler: which?
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10:05<Ammler>planetmaker: It's all Text!
10:06<Ammler>(yes, that's the name)
10:12<@planetmaker>looks useful. Thank you :-9
10:12<@planetmaker>s/9/)/ ;-)
10:16<JVassie_>regnerd :D
10:17<JVassie_>hmm planetmaker
10:17<JVassie_>do some of the rows in the table look like theyre missing lines?
10:17<JVassie_>eg bwteen URAn and VEHI
10:17<@planetmaker>not to me
10:18<JVassie_>hmm odd
10:18<@planetmaker>but... I'd suggest to change the FIRS background colour to a light blue. Currently the text is unreadable
10:19<@planetmaker>like medium blue on dark blue is approx. as bad as dark green on dark red
10:19<JVassie_>doesnt change the link colour
10:19<JVassie_>its supposed to be white text
10:19<@planetmaker>ho :-)
10:20<JVassie_>there are plenty of #FFFFFF 's in there :D
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10:21<JVassie_>mind you, the ECS text is supposed to be black too
10:21<JVassie_>rather than 'link blue'
10:22<@planetmaker>hm, yes. links have a separate style
10:22<JVassie_>| style="background: #EEBB00; link: black" | [ ECS]
10:22<JVassie_>for example being one of the lines that has an ECS box
10:23<JVassie_>theyre color: black not link: black
10:24<@peter1138>yikes, you're setting a style on each one?
10:25<@peter1138>you've heard of... classes... right?
10:26<confound>they're things to take to learn stuff!
10:27<@planetmaker>indeed... it might be an idea, JVassie_ to give those a class on their own... make that table a separate class and define the style
10:29<Mazur>Oooer, how lovely, that's three games with a loop mounted iso image playing without complaining about missing cdroms, now. No more unnecessary CD switiching every time I want to play another one for 10 minutes, anymore!
10:54<JVassie_>peter1138, good plan :D
10:54<JVassie_>im not used to wiki editing
10:54<JVassie_>i dont assume HTML can be used automatically :p#
10:55<JVassie_>find and replace helps in that matter
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11:23<CIA-10>OpenTTD: yexo * r22584 /trunk/ (9 files in 3 dirs): -Add: [NoAI] several functions to AICompany to find out performance information (Morloth)
11:23<JVassie_>perhaps with the new wiki
11:23<JVassie_>it will give the more advanced NFO devs an excuse to write soem more in depth tutorials for the wiki :D
11:26<@Terkhen>IMO the grfspecs should have links to tutorials and code examples in the normal wiki
11:30<@Terkhen>what was the license used for the ttdpatch wiki?
11:30<JVassie_>Terkhen, why so?
11:30<@orudge>As far as I can tell, there is no specific licence. However, much of the content came from the TTDPatch documentation, which as part of TTDPatch would be GPL, I guess.
11:30<JVassie_>shouldnt NFO related tutorials be a part of the grf specs?
11:31<JVassie_>rather than linked seperately?
11:31<@orudge>JVassie_: I believe the intention of the separate wiki was that the specs should stand alone
11:31<@Terkhen>JVassie_: because I'm concerned by the last post on the announcement thread of the tt-wiki
11:31<@orudge>with examples, etc, in
11:31<@Terkhen>and yes, IMO the specs should stand alone
11:31<JVassie_>fair enough
11:31<JVassie_>havent read the thread for a few hours
11:31*JVassie_ wonders off to check
11:32<@orudge>at any rate, the TTDPatch manual and the GRF specs are being migrated to the new wiki
11:33<@orudge>if he wants to throw his toys out of the pram, that's up to him
11:33<@Terkhen>yes, I agree
11:33<@orudge>ECS would seem to be his work
11:33<@orudge>he can set up his own wiki with tikiwiki for that if he wants
11:33<JVassie_>didnt he write it under the T&Cs of the old wiki
11:33<JVassie_>which would have been GPL?
11:33<@orudge>JVassie_: well, it's not explicitly stated.
11:33<@orudge>but the TTDPatch manual was GPL
11:33<@Terkhen>yes, that's why I'm asking about those terms but I don't find anything
11:34<JVassie_>unfortunate :(
11:34<Rubidium>orudge: but then you can't say it's GFDL on tt-wiki
11:35<@Yexo>Terkhen: the spec part is factual information, there is very little (if any) "creative content" there, so that should be safe
11:36<@Yexo>if mb desperately wants his own pages somewhere else, let him do it
11:36<@Terkhen>yes, agreed
11:36<@Yexo>he's just making it harder and harder for people to find dbset
11:36<@Terkhen>just removewe
11:37<@Terkhen>just remove them*
11:37<@Yexo>and there is no reason to allow editing the old wiki at all, even if that's what mb wants
11:37<@Yexo>orudge: perhaps now would be a good time to add a very specific notice about the license to the new wiki?
11:37<@Yexo>to prevent this kind of trouble in the future
11:37<Rubidium>Yexo: scroll down
11:37<@orudge>I'm just working on a reply to MB
11:37<@Terkhen>I have seen a link about the license while editing
11:37<Rubidium>on the wiki pages
11:39<@Yexo>ah, good :)
11:42<JVassie_><Yexo> he's just making it harder and harder for people to find dbset
11:42<JVassie_>which is a damn shame IMO
11:43<JVassie_>as dbset is definitely among the top of the 'train' newgrfs
11:44<frosch123> <- that's in itself unclear
11:45<@orudge>"This program and the accompanying documentation"
11:45<frosch123>"*) Note that other people have contributed code and graphics, and they generally own their contributions themselves."
11:45<@Terkhen>depends on what is "accompanying documentation"
11:46<Rubidium>frosch123: you own parts of OpenTTD source code (copyright)
11:46<@Terkhen>the grfspecs are definitely a part of the accompanying documentation, the rest of the stuff... I'm not sure
11:47<Rubidium>but you've licensed that with GPL, what gives the "user" some rights. IMO the same applies to that wiki, or at least the documentation of TTDPatch which includes the specification of its interfaces
11:48<frosch123>so, currently the specs wiki says fdl, shouldn't it be gpl2 then?
11:50<@orudge>that can be changed, then
11:50<@orudge>Terkhen: as far as I can tell, the only things MB has "started" himself on the wiki is the ECS stuff, and the railway dictionary
11:50<@orudge>everything else is a derivative of the TTDPatch documentation
11:51<@orudge>and as such would be under the GPL
11:51<@planetmaker>and the ECS wiki is not part of the newgrf wiki. But would of course be of the tt-wiki
11:51<@planetmaker>and should
11:51<@planetmaker>but there George hopefully will see to it :-)
11:52<@planetmaker>I'm not entirely surprised by this reaction actually
11:53<@planetmaker>it confirms (pre)judice ;-)
11:55<@planetmaker>meh... now my fix-wiki-style python script bot hangs :S
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12:24<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>hm... too overloaded?
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12:33<@orudge>JVassie_ and others: when updating pages on the newgrf wiki, might I suggest removing the redundant description and title from the top of each pages? That's what I've been doing with the TTDPatch wiki.
12:33<@orudge>JVassie_: see, for instance,
12:33<@orudge>JVassie_: also, -+ +- should be converted to <tt></tt>; but in cases where it's already in a <pre>, then they can just be removed.
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12:36<@Terkhen>orudge: makes sense, it is also as it should be according to
12:36<@Terkhen>I'll fix that in the pages I started later
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>"i'll fix that later" - category: famous last words
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12:39<@Terkhen>I still hope to have a few years with time to procrastinate ahead :P
12:39<JVassie_>woah highlightage
12:40<JVassie_>did you get anywhere with MB orudge ?
12:41<@orudge>JVassie_: see for yourself
12:41<@orudge>he just replied
12:41<JVassie_>dont you just love the drama? :D
12:41<@orudge>I could do without it, really.
12:43<JVassie_>I can imagine
12:43<JVassie_>He thinks the enitre grf specs is his?
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12:43<@orudge>no, he just wants his contributions removed, which is a ridiculous thing to ask really
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12:44<@orudge>particularly considering that once something is GPLed, it remains so, and cannot be revoked
12:44<@orudge>feel free to post in agreement ;)
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12:44<JVassie_>as you said a real case of aToy -> throw_from_pram()
12:45<Eddi|zuHause><orudge> particularly considering that once something is GPLed, it remains so, and cannot be revoked <-- that's actually a very questionable part. some copyright laws explicitly allows the author to revoke copyright.
12:48<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: but the license itself states unrevoke-able
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but if the law states it overrides the license, then the license can state lots of things
12:49<JVassie_>anyoen got a link to the license for the old wiki?
12:49<@Terkhen>JVassie_: I couldn't find such link
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12:51<JVassie_>thx frosch123
12:51<@planetmaker>well... mb is basically asking to remove all TTDPatch version references from the nfo specs. After all they can also be directly derived from openttd's source
12:51<@Terkhen>hmm... but isn't that related to TTDPatch itself?
12:52<JVassie_>but the question is whether it was supplied as part of ttdpatch's documentation
12:53<@orudge>As I recall, it was
12:53<JVassie_>which is included in ttdpatch's GPL license
12:53<@orudge>if you want to download an old enough version of TTDPatch, there was an nfo.txt or somesuch
12:54<JVassie_>Ill see if i have a copy buried in my pc somewhere
12:55<@orudge>old source only seems to be there in diff form, though
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12:57<@orudge> for instance
12:57<@orudge>you have the doc/newgrf.txt file
12:58<@planetmaker>issue solved :-)
12:58<JVassie_>that doesnt look like licensing information :s
12:58<@orudge>JVassie_: it's not
12:58<@orudge>it's the newgrf.txt file
12:58<@orudge>containing the original newgrf spec
12:58<@orudge>which was later uploaded to the wiki
12:58<@orudge>and has evolved since then
12:58<@orudge>TTDPatch was under the GPL
12:58<JVassie_>i understand
12:58<@orudge>as such, newgrf.txt was under the GPL
12:58<@orudge>and as such, the newgrf spec on the wiki is under the GPL
12:59<JVassie_>probably best to prove it to MB :p
12:59<@orudge>now, there is nothing on the wiki saying "all contributions are now GPL", so Michael's own pages are probably not, and he can choose to revoke those
12:59<@orudge>JVassie_: well, I already mentioned all this in the thread
12:59<@planetmaker>but no one cares about those really
12:59<@orudge>but Michael can't revoke the pages that were already GPLed
12:59<JVassie_>orudge, Im sure he will try to though
13:00<@planetmaker>yes, he'll go through great pains to prove his point
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13:00<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: §42 is one such "i revoke it" paragraph:
13:00<@Terkhen> <--- it's not that big anyways
13:00<@orudge>I'm sure in the past though he said things like "you can't use my sets with OpenTTD" :p
13:00<@Terkhen>wow, he actually said that?
13:00<JVassie_>I think he did yeah
13:01<@orudge>Terkhen: eh, try
13:01<@Terkhen>sorry, I meant to link that one
13:01<@Terkhen>the longest contributions seem to be cleanups
13:01<@orudge>I think he's mostly just annoyed that nobody asked his opinion, and that it's buggered up all his formatting of his ECS pages
13:02<@orudge>the latter of which I can understand is annoying
13:02<@Terkhen>but you made a topic about this plan months ago, and I'm sure he posted in it
13:02<@orudge>it's probably just the fact that I did it, relatively speaking, out of the blue
13:02<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: interesting is section3: "Der Urheber hat den Inhaber des Nutzungsrechts angemessen zu entschädigen"
13:02<@orudge>without posting a further consultation, or whatnot
13:03<@planetmaker>So he has to pay us, if he likes to revoke his edits
13:03<@orudge>planetmaker: Would German law apply to content that is hosted outside Germany, though? (The TTDPatch wiki has never been hosted in Germany, for what it's worth)
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but since nobody is currently making profit anyway...
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13:04<@planetmaker>orudge: I doubt it for this case
13:05<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: not making a profit from selling doesn't mean no compensation is due. Compensation would encompass the time needed to write it anew from OpenTTD's source
13:05<JVassie_>and I charge £60/hr
13:05<@planetmaker>After all I can also ask for compensation / cease and desist if people use my photos without permission
13:06<@planetmaker>There are standard rates for such issues.
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie_: you missed the phrase "angemessen" (appropriate) in there
13:06<Prof_Frink>planetmaker: Yes, but was the working of openttd derived from the specs on the ttdpatch wiki?
13:07<@planetmaker>it was derived from the gpl'ed part
13:08<@planetmaker>interesting is also §42.4: "Will der Urheber nach Rückruf das Werk wieder verwerten, so ist er verpflichtet, dem früheren Inhaber des Nutzungsrechts ein entsprechendes Nutzungsrecht zu angemessenen Bedingungen anzubieten."
13:08<@planetmaker>it basically means he'll have to cease using his contributions as well - or allow us, too
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: imho the whole paragraph will already fail to apply on the "zumutbar" part in section 1
13:09<@planetmaker>I do agree
13:11<@Belugas>why would mb want such a move? he just wants a little fun in his existence?
13:14<JVassie_>lets hope he replies to my post
13:14<JVassie_>maybe well find out >.<
13:17<@planetmaker>"I've already outlined it all above and don't want to repeat myself"
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13:20<@planetmaker>orudge: can we get the API for bots for the wiki(s)?
13:20<@planetmaker>api source available via SVN, link at bottom
13:27<@orudge>planetmaker: the API is already present, I believe. /
13:27<@orudge>planetmaker: I think bots need to be added to the bots group
13:27<@orudge>which you should be able to do
13:28<@planetmaker>hm, looks like. Not the path which I exepected it to be
13:28<@planetmaker>I'll try that, thanks
13:28<@orudge>that's what it says on the mediawiki FAQ :)
13:28<@orudge>quick start guide, rather
13:28<@planetmaker>I read that, too, I think :-)
13:28<@planetmaker>obviously it was changed somewhen
13:29<@orudge>does each bot need a user account? You may have to sign it up for a forum account if so
13:30<@planetmaker>I currently use my account. But yes
13:31<@planetmaker>If it works, I'll register a separate one for it
13:31<@planetmaker>and indeed, now I get more useful errors, thanks for the api link :-)
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13:37<@planetmaker>Ha! Success. I get a connection to the wiki :-)
13:38<@planetmaker>Now I "just" need to teach it the proper replacements
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13:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: translators * r22585 /trunk/src/lang/swedish.txt:
13:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: swedish - 2 changes by Ingerfara
13:49<SpComb>YACD as a maximized window somehow repaints much slower than what I'm used to with OpenTTD
13:50<SpComb>fails hsync
13:50<@Terkhen>I guess it is using a lot more processing time
13:51<SpComb>htop shows OpenTTD at max 10%, but X goes to perhaps 80%
13:51<SpComb>maybe my X sucks somehow
13:52<SpComb>mostly an issue while scrolling
13:53<SpComb>need to compare with non-yacd
13:56<SmatZ>do you have the smallmap open?
13:57<SmatZ>then I have no idea :(
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14:06<andythenorth>guten abend
14:07<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
14:11<@planetmaker>'n Abend, andythenorth ;-)
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16:08<@planetmaker>good night
16:10<SmatZ>good night planetmaker
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16:29<lukasp>only quick question - does anybody tried to compile openttd on psion netbook (i.e. on epoc)
16:30<@Yexo>never heard of that
16:30*fjb does not think so.
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16:37<Rubidium>lukasp: I doubt the compiler for that platform is new enough to support OpenTTD's source code
16:38<Rubidium>then there's also the question whether SDL or Allegro supports it. If it doesn't, then compiling it makes not much sense
16:41<Rubidium>though processor wise it should be possible to compile OpenTTD for it
16:43<lukasp>that's not very encouraging ... I'm considering purchase of a netbook and its ability to run openttd will help me with decision
16:44<Rubidium>well, you're talking about a 10+ year computer and operating system
16:44<Chris_Booth>lukasp you will be able to run most openttd server on a 1.6 ghz dual core netbook
16:47<lukasp>I know that the computer is obsolete, but I like psion (I'm a little bit old-fashioned:-)
16:49<lukasp>anyway - I found C++ SDK for the computer, so I will try to play little bit with that ... thanks for response
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16:54<Rubidium>lukasp: I can find traces of sdl having (had) some support for epoc, and there having been some gcc version; you'll need at most OpenTTD 0.6.3 as the later ones probably won't compile
16:55<+glx>too late :)
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18:55<welshdragon>who is website developer?
18:55<welshdragon>the sponsor logos break tables
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18:56<@Yexo>welshdragon: feel free to open a bug report here:
18:57<@Yexo>make sure to include a screenshot, and mention your os, browser and browser version
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19:23<JVassie_>Yexo, any chance I might persuade you to code soem stations? :D
19:23<JVassie_>[/out on a limb]
19:23<@Yexo>possible, are they already drawn?
19:23<JVassie_>the majority of the sprites are
19:24<@Yexo>send me the spritesheets, some description of how they should be combined and I'll see when I have time
19:24<@Yexo>probably somewhere this weekend
19:24<JVassie_>Ill pop something over shortly, thanks a lot :)
19:25<JVassie_>hopefully will provide some more material for me to learn from
19:25<JVassie_>will hopefully be able to get back into it again
19:28<JVassie_>a thought yexo
19:28<JVassie_>one of the features im planning to try and include in the set
19:28<JVassie_>how easy is it to include premade stations
19:29<JVassie_>a la ISR stations set?
19:29<@Yexo>not sure, shouldn't be too hard
19:29<@Yexo>haven't done that before though
19:29<@Yexo>ISR station tiles stay the same after you build them
19:29<JVassie_>these will too
19:29<@Yexo>CHIPS tiles on the other hand change depending on neighboring tiles, so they adept even after they have been build
19:29<JVassie_>i guess i might want that too
19:30<JVassie_>hmm ISR do too
19:30<JVassie_>im thinking of the buffers
19:30<@Yexo>not sure, but not as much as chips tiles
19:30<@Yexo>anyway, it's certainly possible
19:30<JVassie_>awesome :)
19:30<@Yexo>combination of both is possible too
19:30<JVassie_>amazing the possibilities these days :D
19:30<@Yexo>just write down how you want it and I'll see how much is possible to code
19:30<JVassie_>i remmeber the days of 4x5 tiles max :/
19:30<@Yexo>for now it's time to sleep :)
19:30<@Yexo>good night
19:30<JVassie_>no worries
19:30<JVassie_>night o/
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19:43<hgnmu128>UserPages on the tt-wiki have all lost their directory style entry. Surely someone has noticed?
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20:19<hgnmu128>OPs, can't the TTDPatch LocalStyleGuide be merged with the tt-wiki Manual of Style?
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23:51<rash>hello pals
23:52<rash>generate button is non clickable, ubuntu...anyone?
23:57<rash>silly bug
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---Logclosed Tue Jun 14 00:00:53 2011