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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-06-15

---Logopened Wed Jun 15 00:00:54 2011
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01:20<andythenorth>Hola
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01:26<Nite_Owl>Anyone about ??
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01:32<andythenorth>nobody ;)
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02:42<@planetmaker>moin
02:44<fjb>Moin
02:49*andythenorth was trying to write a new 'getting started' guide for newgrf: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/269/
02:51<@planetmaker>sounds partially duplicate to the - also still draft - wiki page on newgrf recommended behaviour
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02:52<@planetmaker>I'd say: go for it. But possibly split it in at least two: the getting started and the newgrf development recommendations
02:52<andythenorth>planetmaker: I think the recommendation is a bit overwhelming for those entirely new
02:52<andythenorth>I'd see it as information in stages...
02:52<@planetmaker>but it's virtually that by your list ;-)
02:53<@planetmaker>well, the name doesn't matter
02:54*andythenorth thinks
02:55<andythenorth>detailed pages might be: standards | tools | tutorials
02:55<andythenorth>linked by a 'getting started' guide
02:55<andythenorth>standards is more like a check-list
02:57<andythenorth>like a launch list: http://launchlist.net/tour
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02:57<andythenorth>http://lite.launchlist.net/
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03:05<@Terkhen>good morning
03:05<@Terkhen>planetmaker: great :)
03:10<@Terkhen>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/AdditionalReferences <--- I wonder what was this page supposed to be
03:10<@planetmaker>that was a list of pages like the main page. Auto-generated
03:10<@Terkhen>should we remove it?
03:11<@planetmaker>I wondered
03:11<@planetmaker>yes, we should. These pages should work via categories
03:12<@planetmaker>That actually should probably now come up with a few meaningful categories for pages which make sense to be displayed in a common overview page each for that particular "topic"
03:12<@Terkhen>how do you remove a page? :P
03:12<@Terkhen>leaving it empty?
03:14<@planetmaker>deleted. I suppose you don't have a 'delete' button next to 'edit'?
03:14<@Terkhen>no
03:14<@planetmaker>then you'll need to ask orudge to also become administrator, I guess
03:15<@Terkhen>you should also write a post about newgrf specs being formatted and available again at the news thread :P
03:15<@planetmaker>I guess you're right.
03:16<@planetmaker>we should still review the pages the bot fixed that nothing got missing in the convert. The bot didn't remove anything but as we know sometimes really stuff got missing in the conversion, esp. with formulas in the page
03:16<@Terkhen>yes, I'm checking
03:17<@Terkhen>it seems that you forgot to add the s/</</g changes
03:17<@Terkhen>but mostly they look fine :)
03:17<@Terkhen>oh wait, this page was not edited by the bot :P
03:18<@planetmaker>hm... :-)
03:20<@Terkhen>there are a few broken tables because of internal links, nothing else :)
03:20<@planetmaker>in the bot-edited pages?
03:20<@planetmaker>hm... then I missed that before I fixed that
03:21<@Terkhen>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/index.php?title=Action7&diff=1255&oldid=1205 <--- you were testing with action 7, right?
03:21<@planetmaker>eventually I did that manually
03:21<@planetmaker>as the page got messed up and I didn't want to do a rollback-edit orgy and most was done correctly. Except ... some stuff with tables
03:22<@Terkhen>oh, ok :)
03:22<@planetmaker>and yes, there that bug was still present
03:23<@planetmaker>but... where is that messed up table? I don't see it
03:25<@Terkhen>I fixed it, check the diff I pasted
03:28<@planetmaker>he, right :-)
03:29<@planetmaker>I need more tea
03:29<@Terkhen>:P
03:37<@planetmaker>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VarAction2_Towns <-- hm... with or without space?
03:37<@planetmaker>^ Terkhen
03:38<@planetmaker>looks better with, actually
03:38<@planetmaker>but it's then the only one
03:40<@planetmaker>and... should we use Action0, Action1, VarAction2 (that's what I prefer) or Action 0, Action 1, VarAction 2?
03:45<@planetmaker>and... should we keep tasks 'done' in the TODO list? Seems a bit pointless to me
03:46<@planetmaker>hm.. but is psychologically good ;-)
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04:03<@Terkhen>planetmaker: IMO without space
04:03<@Terkhen>otherwise it needs a lot of changes and people might be used to the old format
04:03<@Terkhen>bbl
04:03<@planetmaker>hm, I did it now with... but yes, maybe
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04:13<Zarra>What's goin' on?
04:16<Zarra>In 1.1.1 problem with AI! Not workin'... who know the solution???
04:17<JVassie_>*blink*
04:18<@Yexo>Zarra: how is it not working?
04:18<@Yexo>what message do you get?
04:18<@Yexo>did you follow the advise in the error message (if any)?
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04:19<Zarra>1 min.
04:20<Zarra>The program does not see a source of AI
04:20<@Yexo>did you download them via the online content system?
04:22<Zarra>No. Cuz there's no content... :(
04:22<Zarra>ooops...
04:22<@Yexo>so how did you download them?
04:22<@Yexo>if you downloaded any .tar.gz files, you need to extract them to .tar files
04:23<@Yexo>you might also be missing the AI libraries
04:23<Zarra>I simply have not waited the response :(
04:25<Zarra>Found them!!! Sorry to bother!!! Odessa - Ukraine = OUT!
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05:38*andythenorth is going to have tea
05:38<andythenorth>but not a pony
05:38<andythenorth>http://i-want-a-pony.com/
05:38<andythenorth>tea is more available than ponies
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05:39<@peter1138>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13771099
05:39<@peter1138>heh
05:40<andythenorth>indeedy
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05:55<JVassie_>hai all
05:56<@Terkhen>hi JVassie_
06:03<JVassie_>how ya doing?
06:03<@Terkhen>fine, my project is finally working as it should :)
06:04<JVassie_>woo \o/
06:04*JVassie_ is doing planning for his project
06:04<JVassie_>(B)MSS
06:04<JVassie_>:p
06:05<@Terkhen>:)
06:08<JVassie_>unfortunately my lack of understanding how stations are coded
06:08<JVassie_>(or can be coded)
06:09<JVassie_>has meant me pixelating stuff into objects which can be broken down and reused
06:18<JVassie_>a thought, not sure if you'd knwo the answer Terkhen
06:18<JVassie_>is there anyway I can plan to support multiple tracksets, for non track tiles?
06:19<JVassie_>ie use their 'underlay' but not the rails
06:19<@Terkhen>sorry, I have never touched stations or railtypes :/
06:20<@Terkhen>the station pages are scary :P
06:20<JVassie_>heheh :p
06:20<JVassie_>Im hoping someone will write some more examples and/or tutorials in the appropriate places :D
06:21<@Terkhen>:)
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06:21<JVassie_>more NFO developers can only be a good thign I guess
06:21<JVassie_>8thing
06:21<JVassie_>**
06:21<@planetmaker>lobby for station specs included in NML, JVassie_ ;-)
06:22<@planetmaker>that probably would make it easier for the newgrf author ;-)
06:22*JVassie_ lobbies
06:22<@planetmaker>:-P
06:22<JVassie_>how easy is NML to setup on a Win7 box?
06:22<JVassie_>for someoen with no Python experience
06:22<@planetmaker>easy. As it comes with an all-inclusive installer / exe download
06:22<@Yexo>you don't need python, there are windows binaries
06:22<JVassie_>wow
06:22<JVassie_>l'awesome
06:23*JVassie_ wonders if he should do a new version of his grfmaker guide but for NML
06:23<JVassie_>.doc with lots of explainign and pictures
06:24<@planetmaker>I'd very welcome that
06:24<JVassie_>gotta learn NML then I guess :p
06:24<@Yexo>me too, although I'd prefer html with pictures
06:24<@planetmaker>tt-wiki now would be a good place. IMHO it s/should get an NML section anyway
06:24<JVassie_>html is easier for me tbh
06:24<@Yexo>that way it could be included in the nml documentation
06:24*JVassie_ wonders off to find NML .exe
06:24<@planetmaker>either way is fine
06:25<@planetmaker>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/nml/nightlies/LATEST/
06:25<JVassie_>ta
06:26<JVassie_>:o
06:26<JVassie_>no donotreadme included
06:26<@planetmaker>docs/index.html
06:27<JVassie_>:P
06:27<JVassie_>no docs folder in the win32 bundle
06:27<JVassie_>no folders at all
06:27<@Yexo>docs here: http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/index.html
06:27<@planetmaker>http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/index.html
06:27<JVassie_>thx :)
06:28<JVassie_>haha
06:28<JVassie_>is the .exe included an installer?
06:29<@planetmaker>George: I ran the bot on the list of pages you supplied me with. I did not check the result on every page though, only those where the diff looked suspicious. Most likely there will be some pages where it failed in one way or another to fix the tables completely
06:29<JVassie_>guess not
06:29<@Yexo>no, it's the actual executable
06:29<JVassie_>thought so
06:29<@planetmaker>George: but many of the translation pages seem to not exist. Thus they were not touched
06:29<@planetmaker>probably they're named slightly differently
06:29<JVassie_>--version works
06:30<JVassie_>so looks like in business
06:30<JVassie_>\o/
06:32<JVassie_>the docs are much more in depth than i thought :D
06:33<hgnmu128>I think he created NML himself by reading the docs.
06:33<hgnmu128>*itself
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06:35<Eddi|zuHause>"in the beginning was the docs"
06:35<@planetmaker>JVassie_: even though, there's still lots of room for improvement
06:36<JVassie_>:)
06:36<JVassie_>I was planning on working through a tutorial for coding a locomtive + coach
06:36<JVassie_>similar to the grfmaker tutorial I did
06:36<JVassie_>and then add more advanced topics
06:36<JVassie_>like livery overrides, refitting, etc
06:36<JVassie_>animation
06:36<JVassie_>articulated
06:37<JVassie_>planetmaker, which features work in NML so far, trains and?
06:37<@orudge>planetmaker: fancy running your bot on everything on http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Manual after "TrainRefitting"? :)
06:37<@Yexo>JVassie_: all vehicles, industries, airports (as far as they are supported by the spec)
06:37<@orudge>planetmaker: or would you desire a list, I guess, first
06:37<JVassie_>thanks Yexo :)
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06:38<@planetmaker>orudge: yes, plain text list of page names as they appear in the URL
06:38<@Yexo>I think everything except stations and houses
06:38<JVassie>Stations is what I want most :D
06:38<@planetmaker>will be no big problem
06:41<@orudge>planetmaker: does your bot handle these, by the way: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/281/
06:41<@orudge>since they've come up quite a bit in the TTDPatch manual while I was doing it manually
06:43<@planetmaker>most. I remove(d) the +- stuff
06:43<JVassie>One thing I've noticed thats missing in the docs is a quick guide on how to actually run NML to make a grf
06:43<@planetmaker>thus no tt style
06:43<@orudge>ah
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>shouldn't you do s/ / /g?
06:43<@planetmaker>but easy to change
06:44<@orudge>Eddi|zuHause: not generally, they're usually redundant.
06:44<@planetmaker>that's what I do, Eddi|zuHause
06:44<@orudge>Eddi|zuHause: e.g., people double-spacing things.
06:44<@orudge>at least in my experience
06:44<@orudge>planetmaker: if you could keep the <tt> style, I'd prefer that
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>orudge: but double spaces should be handled by the software itself?
06:44<@planetmaker>sure orudge
06:44<@orudge>Eddi|zuHause: well, yes. I just like to tidy things up and remove them. :p
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>orudge: s/ +/ /g?
06:45<@orudge>that works, yes
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>orudge: imho better than suddenly having no space somewhere
06:46<@orudge>Eddi|zuHause: yeah
06:46<@orudge>planetmaker: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/282/ I think that should be a fairly comprehensive list, for now
06:46<@orudge>inevitably there'll be more later ;)
06:47<George>planetmaker: George: but many of the translation pages seem to not exist. Thus they were not touched <- ask orudge
06:47<@orudge>they've not been imported
06:47<@orudge>need to figure out how best to handle them
06:47<@Yexo>JVassie: "nmlc filename.nml" will create filename.grf
06:48<@orudge>planetmaker: you could also add Tutorials, PreSignalsTutorial, GRFTutorial and DrawingSprites to that list
06:50<@planetmaker>that's the literal page names, not sections with several pages, right?
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06:51<@orudge>planetmaker: yep, unless I missed any.
06:52<@planetmaker>orudge: I remove lines with ''''' as start (the first line), too. Ok?
06:52<@planetmaker>it's redundant
06:52<@orudge>Yes
06:52<@orudge>that's fine
06:53<@planetmaker>and any {toc} and {maketoc}
06:54<@orudge>:)
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07:20<@planetmaker>hm... the bot waits 9.6s between two subsequent page changes...
07:20<@orudge>Seems to be working, though :)
07:22<@Yexo>planetmaker: if you use the same python framework as I do, pass "-pt:0" as argument
07:26<@planetmaker>I do indeed
07:26<@planetmaker>that was an excellent tip, Yexo
07:27<@planetmaker>It's quite an easy-peasy framework to use for automatic wiki edits
07:27<@Yexo>yep :)
07:27<@planetmaker>could certainly also be abused as spam bot :-P
07:27<@orudge>heh
07:28<@Yexo>luckily the bot interface is not open for anonymous edits :)
07:28<@planetmaker>:-)
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07:29<@planetmaker>thus it needs "only" a wrapper to register spam accounts ;-)
07:29<@orudge>well, hopefully, the challenge of having to register on the forums rather than the wiki will deter spammers
07:30<@orudge>hee, how colourful, this whole page has ended up <tt>d: http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NewTownGrowthSwitchesdetails
07:30<@planetmaker>orudge: I just discovered that I might have accidentially replaced a <pre>in some instances by a one-space indentation.... it looks 95% the same, though
07:30<@Yexo>planetmaker: can normal accounts without the bot flag even use the api?
07:30<@orudge>planetmaker: ah, well, I'll be looking through everything slowly but surely anyway
07:30<@orudge>still have to transfer graphics over and ideally categorise pages
07:30<@planetmaker>Yexo: I think so.
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07:31<@planetmaker>last pages are now updated, orudge
07:31<@planetmaker>list done ;-)
07:31<@orudge>)
07:32<@orudge>:)
07:32<@orudge>thanks!
07:32<@planetmaker>no problem
07:32<@orudge>now mb really has nothing to complain about ;)
07:32<@planetmaker>:-)
07:32<@orudge>there may be a few other pages I've missed
07:32<@orudge>but I'll look through later and see
07:32<@planetmaker>and a few where the diff looked ok, but the result is ugly ;-)
07:32<@orudge>yeah
07:32<@planetmaker>I judge the commit / not commit by the diff I get
07:33<@planetmaker>though I presses 'y' in all but 3 cases or so
07:34<Ammler><tt> and <pre> needs to be there?
07:35<Ammler>the page looks quite broken
07:35<@planetmaker>which?
07:35<Ammler>orduge psted
07:35<@orudge>yes, something went a bit wrong there
07:35<@orudge>but I'll fix it later
07:35<JVassie><Yexo> JVassie: "nmlc filename.nml" will create filename.grf
07:35<JVassie>thanks Yexo
07:35<JVassie>:p
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07:35<JVassie>any old text editor will do i presume?
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07:36<Ammler>newers should do too
07:36<JVassie>lol
07:37<Ammler>:-)
07:37<JVassie>context
07:37<Chris_Booth>older text editors are more fun :P
07:38<@planetmaker>page fixed, Ammler
07:43<@planetmaker>orudge: Yexo : this is basically what I use wrt pywikipediabot's trunk (r9294)
07:43<@planetmaker>the fixttdp.py is a modified version of replace.py
07:44<@orudge>fair enough
07:44<@planetmaker>this: http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/index.php?folder=bot/
07:44<@planetmaker>:-P Meant to include the line above :-P
07:45<@orudge>oh hey, it must have just been Patch Tuesday
07:45<@orudge>18 new Windows Updates
07:45<@planetmaker>:-)
07:50<@planetmaker>hm... this Hgnmu128 guy has no real clue what he writes about... and what NewGRF variables are and still 'fixes' the town radius information...
07:56<@Yexo>worse, it's blindly copied from http://marcin.ttdpatch.net/sv1codec/TTD-locations.html#_TownArray
07:56<@Yexo>which as discussed yesterday is copyrighted
07:57<@planetmaker>also that. But the info isn't helpful beyond what the var description said but even mis-leading or wrong
07:58<@Yexo>"The first zone is where station activity contributes to growth of the town," that might be wrong, the rest looks correct to me?
07:58<@planetmaker>and even from the source I don't understand quite what the difference between, say 0x94 and 0x95 is
07:58<@planetmaker>Yexo: to me it implies it's something which can be changed by the newgrf. Which is stupid at least
07:59<@planetmaker>These values are frequently updated by TTD, so changing them has little or no effect in the long run.
07:59<@Yexo>var 0x94 is the size of the first town zone, 0x95 the size of the second town zone
07:59<@planetmaker>hm, sure?
07:59<@Yexo>not really, but I thought something like that
07:59<@planetmaker>lampToU16(t->squared_town_zone_radius[0]); and GB(ClampToU16(t->squared_town_zone_radius[0]), 8, 8);
07:59<@planetmaker>thus it's something related to the same zone. But I don't know the difference
07:59<@planetmaker>that's 10 vars as opposed to the 5 I'd expect
07:59<@Yexo>and keep in mind that the info was copied from a page about the TTD savegame format. Changing values made perfect sense for that page (=binary changes in the savegame), but indeed not for a varaction2 page
08:00<@planetmaker>yes
08:00<@Yexo>planetmaker: oh, it's 5 word values
08:00<@Yexo>so var 94 is a word, var 95 is the high byte of var 94
08:00<@planetmaker>hm, yes. But why?
08:00<@Yexo>which again has to do with how ttdpatch works, in ttdpatch all 80+ vars are direct memory access
08:01<@Yexo>you can read var 94 as double-word, shift right 16 bits and you have var 96
08:01<@Yexo>in openttd that obviously doesn't work, but it's emulated for the high bits
08:01<@Yexo>so you can read just var 95 (=high word of var 94)
08:02<@planetmaker>he... I wonder whether those vars need special mentioning actually. Just the word ones are enough
08:02<@Yexo>yes
08:02<@Yexo>only 94, 96, 98, 9A and 9C should be used, at least for new newgrfs
08:02<@Yexo>if they need those at all
08:02<andythenorth>it's not clear what town radii do anyway - I only know because frosch explained me
08:02<andythenorth>I read src and am still not much wiser
08:02<andythenorth>picture = 1k words?
08:03<@Yexo>I know approximately what they do, but I have no idea about the values of those vars
08:03<andythenorth>I wouldn't be able to write newgrf using those values
08:03<andythenorth>if I could, it would be used in FIRS already :P
08:03<@Yexo>you could check the newgrf debug gui in openttd to see what the values are
08:03<@Yexo>hmm, if those vars are shown there
08:04<andythenorth>only if you have a town newgrf active I guess
08:04<andythenorth>if at all
08:06<@Yexo>if you have a house newgrf active you can see those values
08:06<@planetmaker>95 + 2x?
08:06<@Yexo>town with size 566: values are 0x40, 0, 4, 0, 0
08:06<@Yexo>planetmaker: 94, not 95
08:06<@planetmaker>yes
08:06<@planetmaker>ok :-)
08:06<andythenorth>clear as mud :P
08:07<@Yexo>hmm, other town, size 730, values: 0x31, 0, 4, 0, 0
08:07<@Yexo>town with 2115 inhabitants: 0x51, 0x24, 0x19, 0x10, 0x09
08:08<@planetmaker>@calc 92/4
08:08<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 23
08:08<@Yexo>planetmaker: at any rate I'd revert those changes by hgnmu128
08:09<@planetmaker>yes, I'm thinking of just editing it. Or do you mean rollback?
08:09<@Yexo>that stuff is copyrighted, so if it's not too much work I'd rollback and write your own description
08:13<@peter1138>hmm?
08:14<@peter1138>pom te pom
08:14<@orudge>pomme de terre
08:14<JVassie>planetmaker, isnt FF a valdi language ID for any language?
08:14<JVassie>*valid
08:15<@planetmaker>JVassie: it's the default language 7F and FF
08:15<@planetmaker>each language has two IDs: value and value + 0x80
08:15<JVassie>Im just working through a language file
08:15<JVassie>and FF isnt in the list of IDs is all
08:16<@planetmaker>thus valid language IDs are 0x00 ... 0x7F
08:16<@planetmaker>0x7F is default and thus also unavailable
08:16<JVassie>ill stick with 0x01 then i guess
08:16<@Yexo>JVassie: what do you need it for?
08:17<@Yexo>if you don't have any translations, you should only use 7F / FF
08:17<JVassie>0xFF it is then
08:17<JVassie>its my lang file called default.lng
08:18<JVassie>it should use the same strign in every language
08:18<JVassie>*string
08:18<@Yexo>oh, for an nml language file, use 0x01 there :)
08:19<JVassie>gotcha :)
08:20<JVassie>might have my first NML-made grf shortly :D
08:21<@Terkhen>JVassie: I did a nml syntax highlighter for Notepad++; now it must be completely out of date but if you are interested it is here: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/documents/24
08:21<JVassie>I use ConTEXT normally, but thanks :D
08:21<JVassie>hmm does the .nml file need to be in the same folder as nmlc.exe?
08:22<JVassie>or can it be in a subfolder?
08:22<@Yexo>it can be anywhere
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08:24<@planetmaker>Yexo: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VarAction2_Towns
08:24<Ammler>Terkhen: maybe could be added to nml repo as contrib
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08:25<@Terkhen>Ammler: that would mean that someone will maintain it :P
08:25<Ammler>exactly :-P
08:25<@Yexo>planetmaker: wow. I still don't see how that would be useful, but at least it's complete :)
08:25<@planetmaker>I don't either. But I found it interesting ;-)
08:25<@planetmaker>And for things like TAI it might indeed be interesting
08:25<@Terkhen>I created it copying the tokens by hand myself, and I don't code nml in windows anymore
08:27<@planetmaker>Yexo: what was new to me is that actually at _every_ town size there's at least one town zone which is not available
08:27<@Yexo>that is new to me too
08:27<@planetmaker>hm... not true. For 52 houses... there are all around ;-)
08:28<@planetmaker>but that possibly up to 55 ;-)
08:28<@Terkhen>planetmaker: really nice :)
08:28<Ammler>Terkhen: maybe you make one for kate :-)
08:28*Terkhen only uses geany now
08:29<Ammler>and there you have it?
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08:29<@Terkhen>no :P
08:29<welshdragon>rcon psswd 'setting network.server_name' fails while running the game
08:30<@Terkhen>it seems to use scintilla lexers, I don't know what are those
08:30<@planetmaker>try without "network."
08:30<@Terkhen>but at least it seems more widely used than notepad++'s own format
08:31<welshdragon>Error: Command not found, planetmaker
08:32<@planetmaker>s/setting/set
08:32<@Terkhen>although... notepad++ is listed as supported
08:32<welshdragon>Error: Command not found, planetmaker
08:33<welshdragon>:P
08:33<@planetmaker>welshdragon: please read the wiki page on how to use rcon. You probably also miss " somewhere
08:34<welshdragon>planetmaker, it's ok, I'll edit the config :)
08:34<@planetmaker>that won't help you ingame a single bit
08:34<@planetmaker>nor for any existing map or scenario
08:35<JVassie>nmlc: default language file "lang\english.lng" doesn't exist
08:35<@planetmaker>JVassie: then... how's your file called? :-)
08:36<@planetmaker>I *think* it needs to be indeed english.lng
08:36<@Yexo>there is a command-line flag to use another name for the default language
08:36<@planetmaker>but that's tedious in the long run ;-)
08:36<JVassie>well, my nml file is in a folder called Project1, within that folder is a subfolder called lang, in which tere are two files (both identical) called default.lng and english.lng
08:37<@planetmaker>and where do you call nmlc?
08:37<JVassie>C:\Games\Tt\NML is the folder nmlc.exe is in
08:37<JVassie>and im using the command nmlc Project1/BB27000.nml
08:38<@planetmaker>JVassie: you need to go into Project1 dir
08:38<@Yexo>JVassie: better do "cd Project1" first
08:38<@planetmaker>and then call nmlc
08:38<@Yexo>than do "../nmlc BB27000.nml"
08:38<JVassie>ah
08:38<JVassie>:p
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08:39<JVassie>it doesnt like ../
08:40<JVassie>but no matter
08:40<@Yexo>oh, try ..\ instead
08:40<JVassie>i copied the files to the main NML directory
08:40<JVassie>and it works
08:40<JVassie>well until it gets to my syntax error(s)
08:40<@Yexo>yes, but that breaks as soon as you start your second project
08:40<@Yexo>as both will try to use the same lang/ directory
08:40<Ammler>wouldn't adding nml path to %path% suiffice?
08:40<JVassie>good point
08:40<@Yexo>Ammler: yes, but in general that's harder than using ..\
08:41<JVassie><Yexo> oh, try ..\ instead
08:41<JVassie>worked fine :)
08:41<JVassie>same syntax error shown
08:41<JVassie>I guess weight doesnt need a 't'
08:42<@planetmaker>?
08:43<JVassie>Syntax error, unexpected token "t"
08:43<JVassie>on the line where id set the property
08:43<JVassie>weight: 90 t
08:43<JVassie>should it be 90t?
08:43<JVassie>or just 90?
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08:43<@planetmaker>90t
08:43<JVassie>gotcha
08:43<@planetmaker>without space
08:43<JVassie>same idea with 30years and not 30 years i presume
08:43<@planetmaker>units must follow their numbers immediately
08:44<@planetmaker>yes
08:44<@planetmaker>every unit
08:44<@Yexo>oh?
08:44<@Yexo>hmm, didn't even know about that
08:44<JVassie>heh
08:44<JVassie>next 'issue'
08:44<JVassie>settign tractive effort
08:44<@Yexo><planetmaker> units must follow their numbers immediately <- actually that's not true
08:44<JVassie>i presume tractive_effort_coefficient isnt for this purpose as it has a range of 0..1
08:45<@planetmaker>hm... maybe it's then tons instead of t
08:45<@Yexo>both "ton" and "tons" are valid
08:45<@planetmaker>but not t ;-)
08:45<@planetmaker>ok :-)
08:45<JVassie>tons doesnt work
08:45<JVassie>just tested
08:45<JVassie>ton does
08:45<@Yexo>strange, it should
08:46<JVassie>i get an invalid token s if i put tons
08:46<JVassie>and it doesnt like years
08:46<JVassie>:p
08:46<JVassie>easiest to skip the units alltogrther for these? :D
08:46<JVassie>*altogether
08:46<@planetmaker>leave out the years... if a var is called availability_years no point to add a unit
08:46<JVassie>and regardign TE?
08:46<@planetmaker>not all properties have units. coefficients intrinsically cannot have, years, ...
08:47<@planetmaker>and TE is physically a value between 0 and 1
08:47<@planetmaker>Thus that's how NML handles it
08:47<JVassie>hmm
08:47<@planetmaker>forget NFO values. They're... arbitrary at best
08:47<JVassie>flipping it on its head
08:47<JVassie>how would i set a max TE of 300 kN then?
08:47<@Yexo>JVassie: "years" nor "year" is a valid unit
08:47<@Yexo>"tons" should work, but doesn't, that's a bug in nml
08:47<JVassie>gotcha
08:49<@Yexo>the "tons" issue is fixed in r1405
08:49<@planetmaker>JVassie: TE is weight [tons] * 10 * TE_coeff
08:49<@planetmaker>just simple physics
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08:49<JVassie>Im no physician :p
08:49<@planetmaker>and NFO also only knows the TE_coeff
08:49<JVassie>thanks for explaining though
08:49<JVassie>im used to grfmaker
08:50<JVassie>which does that calc for you
08:50<JVassie>perhaps addition for future NMl version?
08:50<@planetmaker>which calc?
08:50<JVassie>TE is weight [tons] * 10 * TE_coeff
08:51<JVassie>you are allowed in grfmaker to input a TE value, not the coefficient
08:51<JVassie>it calculates the coefficient for you
08:51<@planetmaker>are you sure it's labelled correctly there?
08:51<JVassie>for example in this case
08:51<JVassie>yeah
08:51<JVassie>it willingly takes 300 as an input
08:51<JVassie>and it works ingame
08:52<JVassie>for example in my case, with weight 90 tons, and aiming for a TE of 300, the coefficient is 0.033333 etc
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08:52<@planetmaker>rather 0.333
08:53<@planetmaker>factor 10 difference
08:53<@planetmaker>@calc 90*1000* 10 / 300000
08:53<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 3
08:54<JVassie>0.333 yeah
08:55<JVassie>now I have to sort out my .png not having a palette
08:55<@planetmaker>:-)
08:55<JVassie>there an easy way to add one in GIMP?
08:55<@planetmaker>yes and no
08:56<+glx>adding the palette is easy, but usually your colors will be wrong :)
08:56<@planetmaker>http://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-concepts-palettes.html
08:56<JVassie>ta
08:57<Ammler>there are ttd palettes for gimp on the devzone
08:58<@Terkhen>the scintilla lexers seem to be compiled with the program, so not really an option :)
08:58<JVassie>theres links to them in the NML doc
08:59<JVassie>I presume the ttd palettes are indexed palettes
08:59<JVassie>?
08:59<@Terkhen>JVassie: yes
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08:59*JVassie cant fidn the button to even open the dialog..
09:00<JVassie>nvm
09:01<JVassie>*sigh* this is painful :x
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09:02<@planetmaker>JVassie: window -> dockable dialoges -> colour palette
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09:03<JVassie>Colourmap or Palettes?
09:03<@planetmaker>palettes
09:04<JVassie>now to import the .gpl?
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>make sure you take a palette without magic colours
09:05<@planetmaker>oh, hm...
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>or the conversion may do weird stuff
09:05<@planetmaker>well: different: image -> mode -> indexed
09:06<@planetmaker>use own palette -> (choose one) -> open palette selction menu. right click bottom of that window -> import palette
09:07<JVassie>I have no import palette option :x
09:09<JVassie>oh i got it
09:12<JVassie>in the palette selection window I have the dos palette imported
09:12<JVassie>but it doesnt come up in the list on the indexed conversion window
09:15<JVassie>nvm fixed
09:15<JVassie>colours dotn look screwed
09:15<JVassie>*dont
09:16<JVassie>*sigh*
09:16<JVassie>now NML think the palette doesnt contain 256 entries :p
09:16<JVassie>i unchecked the 'dotn remove unsused colours'
09:16<JVassie>oh
09:16<@planetmaker>JVassie: use the ttdviewer to check for animated colours where they shouldn't be
09:16<@planetmaker>you find it also on the bundles server
09:16<@planetmaker>on the devzone
09:17<@planetmaker>it's a nice sweet java app for that
09:17<andythenorth>wrong lighting strikes again :( http://www.jvassie.net/BMSS/images/evesham.png
09:17<JVassie>lol
09:18<andythenorth>JVassie: sorry just noticed that :|
09:18<andythenorth>'wrong' is possibly subjective
09:18<JVassie>which bit particularly?
09:18<andythenorth>the roofs stand out
09:18<JVassie>light comes from top right, no?
09:19<andythenorth>bottom right, about 4.30pm
09:19<JVassie>well, 4:30PM as I recall xD
09:19*andythenorth is annoyed at self for not noticing earlier
09:19<andythenorth>and is now on a mission to help other artists :P
09:19<JVassie>how would you change the shading then?
09:19<JVassie>hehe
09:19<andythenorth>about 1 year ago I told Irwe something like "oh Simon Foster clearly made a mistake in this sprite" :P
09:19<andythenorth>meh
09:20<andythenorth>JVassie: darken the rear of the roof, lighten the front
09:20<JVassie>read meaning top left of it, front meaning bottom right?
09:20<JVassie>in the \ view
09:20<JVassie>*rear
09:20<andythenorth>basically this house is a very good guide: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=145500
09:20<andythenorth>it makes the correct shading quite clear
09:21<andythenorth>it was very stupid of me to tell Irwe that Simon Foster had drawn it wrong :P
09:21<JVassie>:P
09:21<JVassie>in this case though
09:21<welshdragon>can I load a scenario in a VPS?
09:21<JVassie>it would look weird if the roof went from ligth to dark, then light to dark again when put next to another canopy
09:21<welshdragon>(Dedicated Server)
09:21<@planetmaker>Yexo: the town index... in OpenTTD it's rather word-sized than byte-sized, right?
09:21<JVassie>*light
09:22<Ammler>welshdragon: if in doubt, just rename the sencario to .sav
09:22<@Yexo>planetmaker: yes
09:22<@planetmaker>then that needs fixing, too :-)
09:22<@planetmaker>I'm on it
09:22<@Yexo>that's not so easy
09:22<Ammler>afaik, loading doesn't care about extensions anymore
09:22<@Yexo>as var 81 is not the high byte of var 80 in that case
09:22<@Yexo>(is it 80?)
09:23<JVassie>andythenorth: wouldnt you say?
09:23<andythenorth>JVassie: ?? :)
09:23<Ammler>welshdragon: also try first then ask :-P
09:23<JVassie><JVassie> it would look weird if the roof went from ligth to dark, then light to dark again when put next to another canopy
09:24<JVassie>unless i misunderstand you
09:25<@Belugas>hello
09:25<@planetmaker>Yexo: you mean me wrt to town index about the 'not easy'?
09:25<@planetmaker>hm...
09:25<@Yexo>yes
09:26<@Yexo>it needs clarification that 80+x vars are not direct memory accesses in openttd
09:26<@planetmaker>well. That var simply returns the index. Which is a pool index which is 0 ... 64000
09:26<andythenorth>JVassie: I was trying to retouch it for you, but it's taking a bit long :)
09:26<@planetmaker>what else does the newgrf author need?
09:27<@Yexo>nothing, I just doubt a newgrf author needs that at all
09:27<JVassie>andythenorth: perhaps a simple outline in paint instead of a retouch? just so i can understand the concept clearly perhaps? :)
09:29<andythenorth>ok
09:31<JVassie>andythenorth: http://www.jvassie.net/BMSS/images/shadingexample.png like that?
09:31<andythenorth>yes
09:31<JVassie>so in http://www.jvassie.net/BMSS/images/evesham.png
09:31<JVassie>the 'top' of the canopies
09:31<andythenorth>compare to FIRS shed: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/lighting_example_uk_stations.png
09:32<JVassie>oh
09:32<JVassie>not like my example then :p
09:32<andythenorth>oops
09:32<andythenorth>sorry distracted by failing web server :D
09:32<JVassie>so in essence its flipped?
09:32<andythenorth>yes
09:32<JVassie>fair enough
09:32<JVassie>and no worries
09:32<andythenorth>it's a very annoying discovery :|
09:33<andythenorth>I had to redraw a lot of FIRS :(
09:33<JVassie>so many newgrf sets are based on light from top right
09:33<andythenorth>I know
09:33<andythenorth>it's a silly direction to light isometric sprites from though
09:33<JVassie>mmm
09:33<andythenorth>for the art to look good, at least one face needs to be fully lit
09:33<andythenorth>otherwise everything is gloomy
09:34<andythenorth>not suggesting you have to repaint it :o
09:34<andythenorth>some have made the case that changing the lighting direction improves the art
09:35<JVassie>for now I guess will keep them as is, and once the set is eventually in the coding stage
09:35<JVassie>I can see how well it interfaces in different situations in ttd
09:35<JVassie>and make the decision then
09:36<JVassie>thanks for the heads up :)
09:36<andythenorth>it's quite easy to retrofit the lighting ;)
09:36<andythenorth>and mostly it's just roofs that need to change
09:36<Ammler>wow, that firs shed looks like lighting is from west
09:36<andythenorth>only if the default coal mine looks like it's lit from the west :P
09:36<@peter1138>hm
09:36<Ammler>andythenorth: you mean original :-P
09:37<andythenorth>I think default is ambiguous
09:37<andythenorth>depending on context :P
09:37<andythenorth>I should say original TTD
09:37<@peter1138>heh
09:37<Ammler>original is ttd, default can be both
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09:37<@peter1138>3d render everything
09:37<andythenorth>4d
09:37<andythenorth>(animated gifs)
09:38<@peter1138>(are the 32bpp crowd still insisting that everything needs to be modeled and rendered with a 3d package, and also 1000X larger than normal...?)
09:38<Ammler>peter1138: there is no crowd
09:38<@peter1138>it petered out?
09:38<JVassie>planetmaker: how exactly do I use ttdviewer to check for the animated colours?
09:39<@planetmaker>just start it...
09:39<JVassie>have done
09:39<@planetmaker>and load your file
09:39<JVassie>check
09:39<Ammler>play around with the options
09:39<@planetmaker>enable / disable the animation colours in the rhs menu
09:39<@planetmaker>it nothing changes: all is fine ;-)
09:39<JVassie>have done, none changes
09:39<JVassie>righteo
09:40<JVassie>so saving that file and using it in NML should work then?
09:40<@planetmaker>well, you need to have it saved to view it in ttdviewer in the first place, right?
09:40<JVassie>yeh
09:40<JVassie>true
09:41<JVassie>Image file BB27000.png: Palette is not recognised as a valid palette >.<
09:41<JVassie>d'oh
09:41<@planetmaker>hm... JVassie nml/docs has afaik two palettes
09:41<JVassie>ill try importign the windows one
09:41<Ammler>andythenorth: JVassieis from right up, I thought you said, it needs to be right down, but your shed is from left down
09:42<@planetmaker>JVassie: if you can use the DOS one, do that
09:42<@planetmaker>more colours for you there
09:42<JVassie>doesnt like DOS
09:42<JVassie>the sprites are already drawn
09:42<JVassie>in MS paint I believe he did them in
09:42<@planetmaker>it has nothing to do with what OS you like
09:42<andythenorth>Ammler: it's not
09:42<andythenorth>you can zoom in and pick RGB values
09:42<@planetmaker>and if you don't have a valid palette... then using windows palette is stupid
09:42<andythenorth>the shed is lit from about 4.30pm
09:43<JVassie><JVassie> doesnt like DOS - i meant that NML doesnt like the file when its using the DOS palette
09:43<@planetmaker>maybe it's a wrong palette file. There have been some...
09:43<@planetmaker>subtly different
09:44<JVassie>hmm
09:45<JVassie>when I imported the palette
09:45<JVassie>GIMP picked up it had 256 colours in 16 columns
09:45<@Yexo>that doesn't mean the palette is correct
09:45<JVassie>true
09:45<JVassie>but at one poitn I had an error saying palette didnt have 256 colours
09:45<JVassie>*point
09:46<Ammler>andythenorth: with your lighting, around 90% of every newgrf is wrong
09:46<@planetmaker>yes... both can be errors. But NML checks for the palette to also have the right colours
09:46<JVassie>liek for example now, ive just tried it with the windows palette
09:46<JVassie>days there arent 256 entries
09:46<andythenorth>Ammler: my lighting?
09:46<JVassie>*says
09:46*andythenorth will do something else
09:46<Ammler>well, the lighting you think is right :-)
09:46<andythenorth>arguing about lighting is stupid
09:46<andythenorth>the newgrfs are wrong
09:46<Ammler>well, you know what I mean
09:47<Ammler>yes, I said that, 90% of them are
09:47<andythenorth>assuming they want to be compliant with original graphics, they're wrong
09:47<@peter1138>what lighting is correct?
09:47<@planetmaker>andythenorth's of course ;-) :-P
09:47<andythenorth>if they want to invent their own art, then its's subjective and all bets are off
09:47<andythenorth>therefore there is no argument or debate to be had :P
09:48<Ammler>well, on the example above, the difference is quite much
09:48<@peter1138>ttrs3 has some odd lighting
09:48<JVassie>lighting aside
09:49<andythenorth>we should add lightning :P
09:49<andythenorth>or lightening
09:49<andythenorth>as advanced options
09:49<@peter1138>no e
09:49<andythenorth>new disaster
09:49<JVassie>should add ability for png's to be used withotu a palette!
09:49<@peter1138>unless you just want to lighten everything
09:49<andythenorth>'lighting struck your station'
09:49<JVassie>much simpler
09:49<@peter1138>JVassie, we did
09:49<Chris_Booth>lol that could crash planes
09:49<andythenorth>'lightening strike, your game turned white'
09:49<@peter1138>JVassie, it's called 32bpp
09:49<Chris_Booth>sink ships
09:49<JVassie>peter1138: d'oh
09:49<Chris_Booth>or stops Erail trains
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09:50<JVassie>this is annoying me :(
09:50<JVassie>all i want is to make a wee little newgrf!
09:50<JVassie>hmm[h
09:50<JVassie>*hmmph
09:52<@Yexo>as far as I know nml handles palettes in image files exactly the same as grfcodec
09:52-!-enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:52<@Yexo>ie it has to be the correct palette
09:52<JVassie>shame the windoes NML doesnt support PCX
09:53<Ammler>JVassie: if you convert colors with gimp, you need to disable the option "remove unused colors" or so
09:53<JVassie>Ammler: I did so when I converted to an indexed picture
09:53<Ammler>but you need to use the "full" ttd palette
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09:53<Ammler>not just the one without action/company colors
09:54<Ammler>that one is just for converting :-)
09:54<JVassie>full emaning the oen with 256 colours?
09:54<JVassie>*meaning
09:54<Ammler>before you export, you need to use the full palette
09:54<JVassie>*one
09:54<Ammler>yep
09:54<JVassie>http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/ttd-newgrf-dos.gpl
09:54<JVassie>is what I used to import the DOS palette into GIMP
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09:55<Ammler>he, thought you use the windows palette?
09:55<JVassie>ive tried both
09:55<JVassie>:p
09:56<JVassie>on sepereate 'fresh' versions of the file
09:56<@Yexo>can you upload your new png file?
09:56<@Yexo>than I'll take a look at what exactly is wrong with the palette
09:56<JVassie>after beign indexed by DOS?
09:56<@Yexo>yes (or win)
09:56<Ammler>maybe both :-)
09:57<Ammler>your original and your convert
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09:58<JVassie>http://www.jvassie.net/BMSS/images/BB27000-dos.png
09:58<JVassie>http://www.jvassie.net/BMSS/images/BB27000-win.png
09:58<JVassie>http://www.jvassie.net/BMSS/images/BB27000.png
09:59<JVassie>there you are Yexo
09:59<JVassie> / Ammler
09:59<JVassie>:)
10:00<JVassie>all 3 look identical to my untrained eye
10:03<@Yexo> JVassie both the -dos and the -win image have a palette with 255 entries, not 256
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10:14<JVassie>ah
10:14<JVassie>so there was an error with the .gpl I imported?
10:15<@Terkhen>I have been using the dos and win palettes from openttdcoop a lot
10:15<JVassie>are they .gpl?
10:15<JVassie>for importing into GIMP?
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>there are options like "remove unused palette colours", which need to be disabled on saving
10:15<JVassie>Eddi|zuHause: have made sure thats unchecked
10:18<@Terkhen>JVassie: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/documents/2 <--- yes
10:19<JVassie>awesome ill try those instead
10:23<JVassie>ah hah this one comes up with (256) in the palette window
10:23<JVassie>not (265)
10:23<JVassie>\o/
10:23<JVassie>i see
10:24<JVassie>NML didnt output any message that time
10:24<JVassie>wooo!
10:24<JVassie>success!
10:24<JVassie>a .grf
10:24<JVassie>:D
10:24*JVassie hugs Terkhen et al
10:24<@Terkhen>:)
10:25<JVassie>hmm, not appearing in the newgrf window though :x
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 1.04**30
10:25<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 3.24339751003
10:26*JVassie cant remember how Yexo said to fix that :p
10:26<@Terkhen>JVassie: it's probably something wrong on the grf block
10:26<@Yexo>pastebin the nml code
10:26<@Terkhen>^
10:28<JVassie>http://pastebin.com/m4ChMxYD
10:29<JVassie>http://pastebin.com/mnPb4Akx is the .lng file
10:29<@Yexo>that looks fine
10:30<JVassie>:s weird
10:31<@peter1138>did nml ever support setting the same property for multiple ids at once?
10:31<JVassie>how do you set the version of (o)ttd(p) its compatible with?
10:31<JVassie>like 3 * 108 08 07 "JC" 00 01 "British Station Set v0.0.4 "
10:31<JVassie>sets it to 07
10:31<@Yexo>peter1138: no
10:32<@Yexo>JVassie: that sets the nfo version, it's done automatically by nml
10:32<JVassie>ah right
10:32<Ammler>[16:18] <Terkhen> JVassie: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/documents/2 <--- yes <-- same files as in nml docs, afaik
10:32<JVassie>Ammler: they arent
10:32<JVassie>because those ones worked :p
10:33<JVassie>(the ottdcoop)
10:33<Ammler>hmm
10:33<JVassie>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/1050/ttd-newgrf-dos.gpl
10:33<JVassie>http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/ttd-newgrf-dos.gpl
10:34<JVassie>first one works, 2nd doesnt weirdly
10:35<@Yexo>JVassie: compiling a file with that nml code and it shows up fine
10:35<JVassie>:s
10:35<JVassie>nvm
10:35<JVassie>im a fricking idiot
10:35*JVassie hangs head in shame
10:35*JVassie thanks Yexo :D
10:36<Ammler>your browser seems to convert the hg file somehow
10:36<Ammler>20ca38855c09d94d439e056094246ae6 ttd-newgrf-dos.gpl
10:36<Ammler>20ca38855c09d94d439e056094246ae6 ttd-newgrf-dos-hg.gpl
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10:36<JVassie>odd :s
10:37<JVassie>hmm, in terms if alignment issues, if i want to move it up a pixel, I add or subtract one to the y-offset?
10:37<JVassie>and vice versa for the x offset
10:37<Ammler>JVassie: use the ingame grf debugger
10:37<Ammler>(gui)
10:37<JVassie>accessed by?
10:37<Ammler>SpriteAligner
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 1.04**80
10:37<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 23.0497990699
10:38<Ammler>you need to enable newgrf_develper config
10:38<@Terkhen>JVassie: in your openttd.cfg, set "newgrf_developer_tools = true"
10:38<Ammler>then you get a GUI to check sprites ingame
10:39<@Terkhen>with the newgrf debug gui you can also check stuff related to a newgrf item such as variables, active callbacks and so on
10:39<JVassie>set to true
10:39<JVassie>now
10:39<Ammler>start a game with your newgrf
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>hm... how about NewGRF-currencies?
10:39<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: newgrf-locales :-)
10:39<JVassie>done
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: entirely different issue :p
10:40<@Terkhen>JVassie: IIRC the sprite aligner was in the last menu
10:41<JVassie>found it
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>the problem: a vehicle set may want to have historically correct pricing, but this depends on start year and inflation settings
10:41<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: well, currencies are locales
10:41<JVassie>ok
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: not in the game, they are completely separate
10:41<Ammler>ah
10:41<JVassie>so i can use the arrow buttons
10:41<Ammler>I see
10:41<JVassie>will that move the sprites ingame?
10:41<Ammler>JVassie: yes, try it!
10:41<@Terkhen>yes, you can use that to get the right offsets
10:42<Ammler>awesome feature :-)
10:42<JVassie>:D
10:42<JVassie>woo
10:42-!-Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:42<Ammler>but it shows the alignment just ingame, it doesn't write those to the grf :-P
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10:44<Eddi|zuHause>the problem (2): assume a vehicle set is modeled for 4% inflation, and a start year 1920, and sets correct prices for 1:1 conversion factor. then a game start in 1950 would divide all "historically correct" prices by 3.24, in order to counter that, the newgrf could set the conversion factor to 3.24 higher by an action 6 checking the start year
10:44-!-Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
10:45<JVassie>awesome
10:45<JVassie>got 8 sets of offsets written down :)
10:45<JVassie><3
10:49<Ammler>why does a newgrf set calc with inflation at all?
10:50<Ammler>that could be task of openttd
10:50<Ammler>or rather should
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10:53<JVassie>woo
10:53<JVassie>alignment complete
10:53<JVassie>looks good :)
10:53*JVassie makes mental note to do alignment with wagons in future straight away
10:53<JVassie>rather than 'egine solo'
10:53<JVassie>:p
10:53<JVassie>*engine
10:54<JVassie>thanks Ammler / Yexo / Terkhen / planetmaker for all yuor help :D
10:54<JVassie>*your
10:55<@planetmaker>welcome
10:55<JVassie>my first NML .grf
10:55<JVassie>woop
10:57<@planetmaker>:-) sweet
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>dude!
10:58<@planetmaker>hm... there's a pre-made wiki syntax beautification script... :-)
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11:04<JVassie> * ********************************************
11:04<JVassie> * Adjust y-offset in depots
11:04<JVassie> * ********************************************
11:04<JVassie> */
11:04<JVassie>traininfo_y_offset = 2;
11:04<JVassie>oooh
11:05<@planetmaker>looks like from ogfx+trains?
11:06<JVassie>yup
11:06<JVassie>so that sets all sprites in the depot up 2 px?
11:06<@planetmaker>yup
11:06<@planetmaker>or rather down iirc
11:07<JVassie>mmm would make more sense
11:07<@Yexo>negative values are allowed
11:07<JVassie>mine float 1 or 2px when put next to ukrs2 coaches in depot for example
11:07<JVassie>even though they line up ingame
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11:09<JVassie>I presume adding stations to NML involves a hefty amount of work?
11:13<@planetmaker>it's said to be not exactly straight forward
11:13<JVassie>:p
11:13<JVassie>I wish i knew enough about the nfo involed to help out
11:13<JVassie>*involved
11:14<JVassie>what would you say is the most complex stations grf released so far? IRS?
11:14<JVassie>*ISR?
11:16<@planetmaker>CHIPS is probably among them
11:16<@Yexo>ISR is more complex for sure
11:16<@planetmaker>ISR is not bad either, though
11:16<@planetmaker>complex != size
11:16<@planetmaker>much of ISR is single tiles
11:16<@Yexo>hmm, true
11:17<JVassie>guess so
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11:18<JVassie>just realised I have a lot of completed French Set sprites laying around on my pc
11:21<@planetmaker>a set without coder, eh?
11:21<@planetmaker>well, there's always enough to do for NewGRF coders
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11:25<@Terkhen>oh, that reminds me
11:26<@Terkhen>JVassie: do you know what is the status of the spain set licensing?
11:26<JVassie>not the foggiest mate
11:26<JVassie>not been involved in the dev for years :(
11:26<@Terkhen>I'm guessing "none", but I have not read the hwole thread
11:26<@Terkhen>whole*
11:26<@Terkhen>hmmm... ok
11:27<@Terkhen>the sprites are nice, but the set has many bugs and the current coder does not seem to have much time to work on it
11:27<@Yexo>JVassie: and the bmss?
11:27<JVassie>I should really choose a license for it
11:28*Terkhen suggest gpl :P
11:28<JVassie>I guess it will be GPL
11:28<JVassie>:p
11:28<@Terkhen>:)
11:29<JVassie>seeign as there are sprites posted on the website
11:29<JVassie>I should probably make it clear asap
11:29<@Terkhen>clear licensing is always a good thing :)
11:31<andythenorth>he
11:31<JVassie>hee
11:31<andythenorth>unrelated to that, it's fun when GPL is described as 'less restrictive'
11:32<andythenorth>some might say it's more restrictive :)
11:32<andythenorth>for good reason
11:33<@Terkhen>I said clear, not less restrictive :P
11:34<@Terkhen>it ensures that development can continue
11:34-!-sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd
11:34<@planetmaker>yes. IMHO having a GPL or CC-BY license is very important. Or work can be lost for the community
11:35<@planetmaker>I'd have been quite sad, if I'd not have been allowed to add parameters to TTRS3
11:35<@planetmaker>but they did the right thing [TM]. And so did ISR actually
11:36<@planetmaker>and JapanesSets... though there it's hard(er) to find sources
11:36<@planetmaker>though... it might be a similar development style like ECS
11:37<JVassie>hmm
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11:44<@peter1138>hmm
11:45<@planetmaker>hmm
11:45<@peter1138>hmm!
11:45<@Terkhen>hmm
11:45<@peter1138>just like the old days
11:46<@planetmaker>men can perfectly well communicate with quite a reduced set of letters ;-)
11:46<@Terkhen>yup
11:49<Eddi|zuHause><JVassie> what would you say is the most complex stations grf released so far? IRS? <-- modern stations is quite overcomplicated
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>(and buggy, and borderline broken)
11:51<@Terkhen>it does not sound like a great example :P
11:58<JVassie>no :p
11:58<@planetmaker>Terkhen: you like GRFID over grfID?
11:59-!-elmz [~elmz@184.213-167-126.customer.lyse.net] has joined #openttd
11:59<@planetmaker>I somehow prefer the latter
12:00<@Terkhen>I actually prefer GrfID
12:00<@Terkhen>but GRFID seems to be more used
12:00<@planetmaker>he
12:01<@planetmaker>well, I guess it doens't matter. I just find GRFID hides the GRF while grfID makes it slightly more visible. But might be me. So...
12:01<@planetmaker>... GRFID it is
12:01<@Terkhen>go ahead with grfID, I don't really mind :P
12:02<@planetmaker>:-D
12:02<@planetmaker>war about proper capitalzation!
12:02<@planetmaker>one spelling certainly is copyright protected
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>GRF-ID?
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>i'm totally inconsistent wrt this as well :p
12:04<andythenorth>NewgrfID
12:04<andythenorth>pah
12:04<JVassie>GrFiD!!
12:04<@orudge>I would say GRFID, probably.
12:04<@Terkhen>gRfId
12:05<JVassie>9RF1D
12:05<JVassie>tbh
12:05<@orudge>we could rename it to something new and snazzy
12:05<@orudge>Splomr
12:05<@Terkhen>NewGRF NewID
12:05<@orudge>"Update the GRF's Splomr to uniquely identify it"
12:05<@Terkhen>:D
12:05<@planetmaker>hehe
12:06<@planetmaker>well. GRFID
12:06<@planetmaker>this is just nice... run regex on all wikipages is so simple :-)
12:06<@orudge>For what it's worth, the original specs, and the wiki, use "GRF ID"
12:07<@planetmaker>well. it's w/o space now
12:07<@orudge>mmh
12:07<@Terkhen>I saw it without spaces in some places before writing that entry in TermConsistency
12:08<@planetmaker>hm, yes, there are places with space, too
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12:09<@Terkhen>hi frosch123
12:09<@planetmaker>quak
12:10<@planetmaker>changed the spaced versions also to GRFID
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12:10<frosch123>moin :)
12:11<@Terkhen>frosch123: what do you think that should be the next step regarding town control?
12:11<andythenorth>add cb 15E: provide ponies
12:12<frosch123>Terkhen: maybe additional text?
12:12-!-ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has joined #openttd
12:12<@Terkhen>I'm thinking on callbacks, probably additional text as it is required by the other ones
12:12<@Terkhen>not exactly required... but these features should have a way of providing feedback
12:13<@planetmaker>callback: rename town: 1948: s/Chemnitz/Karl-Marx-Stadt/; 1990: s/Karl-Marx-Stadt/Chemnitz/
12:13<@planetmaker>(or whenever that was)
12:13<@Terkhen>ok, if we agree I'll start reading other similar callbacks :)
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12:22<@planetmaker>I always confuse files and documents ;-)
12:25<@Terkhen>hmm... generic callbacks need a feature number, so towns would need to reserve a feature number
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12:25*Terkhen wonders if any kind of action0 makes sense for towns
12:25<@Terkhen>probably not
12:26<JVassie>Introduction date, town life?
12:26<JVassie>xD
12:27<JVassie>date of random destruction
12:27<JVassie>power
12:27<@planetmaker>Terkhen: it could.
12:27<JVassie>max speed?
12:27<JVassie>:D
12:27<@planetmaker>like town growth cargo
12:27<JVassie>*growth speed
12:27<@planetmaker>growth speed indeed
12:27<@planetmaker>and a potential town type
12:27<@Terkhen>for stuff like growth speed, it would also make sense to have a callback
12:27<@planetmaker>which house newgrfs could read
12:28<@Terkhen>and if we have a callback... why do we need an action0 property?
12:28<JVassie>Hmm, planetmaker; what sort of block would I need for a livery override for the engine itself, im thinking in terms of year built
12:28<@planetmaker>JVassie: a livery override block is what you need
12:29<@planetmaker>but... livery override is NOT the graphics depending on build year
12:29<@planetmaker>that's a simple switch sequence
12:29<JVassie>you need to combien with a switch block?
12:29<JVassie>*combine
12:29<@planetmaker>livery override is ONLY when a wagon adopts its view to an engine
12:29<frosch123>Terkhen: towns need a feature byte for long
12:30<frosch123>nforenum has quite some troulble with stuff without a feature byte
12:30-!-Bilge [~bilge@92.28.197.104] has quit [Quit: This is not conducive to meaningful dialogue.]
12:30<frosch123>(internally it fakes feature 8 to be 'town'; but that is no nice way)
12:30<@planetmaker>JVassie: check out how I handle the bulk wagon, coal cargo
12:30<JVassie>which src? opengfx+ ?
12:30<@planetmaker>that has different graphics depending on build year
12:30<@planetmaker>ogfx+trains, yes
12:31<JVassie>kk
12:31<JVassie>thx
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12:31<@Terkhen>towns could take number 0x13 (reserving 0x12 for airports)
12:32<@Terkhen>or maybe a number in a different, higher range if we want to make clear it is a fake feature
12:32<@Terkhen>unless it makes sense to have a real action0 for towns
12:32<@planetmaker>signals...
12:32-!-dunno [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit []
12:33<@planetmaker>they also have a sort-of dummy feature byte
12:33<JVassie>if (param[1] == 0) {
12:33<JVassie> /* Steam / Diesel / Electric wagons */
12:33<JVassie> disable_item(FEAT_TRAINS, 29, 53);
12:33<JVassie> /* Monorail wagons */
12:33<JVassie> disable_item(FEAT_TRAINS, 59, 83);
12:33<JVassie> /* Maglev wagons */
12:33<JVassie> disable_item(FEAT_TRAINS, 91, 115);
12:33<JVassie>thats cool! :D
12:33<@Terkhen>planetmaker: true, 0E
12:33<frosch123>Terkhen: airports already have 0D
12:33<frosch123>so, 0x12 is fine
12:34<@planetmaker>JVassie: it's even cooler, when you use if (disable_trains == 1) { ... }
12:34<@Terkhen>ok :)
12:34<@planetmaker>with a named parameter
12:34<JVassie>:p
12:34<@Yexo><Terkhen> towns could take number 0x13 (reserving 0x12 for airports) <- airports already ahve 0D
12:34<JVassie>true
12:34-!-goblin [~goblin@dslb-092-074-202-014.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving]
12:34<@planetmaker>it was not possible when I wrote that. But is now
12:35<@Yexo>that makes me think we should slowly head towards disallowing the "param[x]" syntax
12:35<@planetmaker>Terkhen: then reserve feature 12 now. Today there's a special offer: buy this feature and get a wiki entry for free
12:35<@Yexo>as there is no need for it anymore
12:35<JVassie>ive found the spriteset/groups for coal wagon
12:35<JVassie>just need to fidn the item
12:35<JVassie>:p
12:36<@Terkhen>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0#Feature <--- I'll just reserve it in this table :)
12:37<@planetmaker>hm, JVassie seems I put that thing in a template
12:37<JVassie>:(
12:37<@planetmaker>templates_wagon:27ff
12:38<@planetmaker>template_wagons.pnml
12:38<@planetmaker>should be understandable also there
12:38-!-ar3kaw [~ident@ecj132.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:39<JVassie>hmm
12:39<@planetmaker>switch(FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, name ## _year_switch, build_year < year_for_modern) { \
12:39<@planetmaker> 1: name ## _early_group; \
12:39<@planetmaker> name ## _modern_group; \
12:39<@planetmaker>}
12:39<@planetmaker>that's it basically
12:39<@Terkhen>for using templates you need to use a makefile system though
12:39<JVassie>im happy not to bother with them and the .pnml files
12:40<@planetmaker>JVassie: pnml is also nml. Just with a few added short-cuts which the compiler fills in for me. Thus I need to type less. E.g. this template is used for each bulk cargo. But I only typed it once
12:41<@Yexo>and edit it once, should there be a bug in it
12:41<@Terkhen>if you don't want to bother with templates, grab the generated nml file for ogfx-trains and look for the code generated from the template
12:41<@Terkhen>but... what they said :P
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12:57<@planetmaker>!rcon clients
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12:58<@planetmaker>:-D
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13:26<frosch123>hmm, planetmaker: did you mark the wrong item in the todo list as "done" ?
13:26<frosch123>i.e. page-to-be-created instead of varaction2-towns
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13:37<Wolf01>hellol
13:38<@planetmaker>probably, frosch123
13:39<@planetmaker>fixed
13:40<@planetmaker>for what it's worth: The wiki now uses consistently towns over cities, TTDPatch instead of TTDP, OpenTTD instead of OTTD, more often makes clear that some version infos refer to TTDPatch,
13:40<@planetmaker>and always GRFID
13:42<@planetmaker>oh, and Size is always linked in page tables ;-)
13:42<@planetmaker>s/page //g
13:42<frosch123>planetmaker: there are lot of cases, where internal links [[ | ]] have two || in the middle
13:42<frosch123>thus breaking tables
13:43<frosch123>e.g http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action1
13:43<frosch123>(i also fixed lots of those in the pages i converted)
13:43<frosch123>does your bot handle that?
13:44<@planetmaker>it did. But all pages should be treated - those which had not been touched up to last night
13:44<@planetmaker>thus everything *should* be readable now
13:44<@planetmaker>but some pages where the bot did not yet work, with the old script, might have that failed conversion you pointed out
13:44<@planetmaker>and... if pages had formula - they'll be broken most likely
13:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: translators * r22590 /trunk/src/lang/ (indonesian.txt welsh.txt):
13:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: indonesian - 1 changes by adjayanto
13:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: welsh - 19 changes by welshdragon
13:46*andythenorth has to work out advanced sprite layout
13:47<andythenorth>getting up at 5am not ideal for this :)
13:47<andythenorth>need a snow dependent ground tile here: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/283/
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13:53<@planetmaker>you'll get that with NML :-P
13:53<@planetmaker>possibly
13:54*andythenorth is too impatient for that :D
13:58<Lakie>You might want to ask frosch123 about those, andythenorth.
13:58<Lakie>If you are refering to what I think you are, using buffers and such to control how the action2 layout is used.
14:04-!-keky___ [~stefan@p5098b65a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
14:04<andythenorth>I have the spec in my browser
14:05<andythenorth>I'm just a bit slow
14:16<@Terkhen>hmm... openttd is using generic callback 18, only for stations though
14:21<@Yexo>yes, that's the only useful thing from that callback
14:21-!-goblin [~goblin@dslb-092-074-202-014.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
14:21<andythenorth>frosch123: the examples here rely on procedures? http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Advanced_Sprite_Layout
14:21<andythenorth>but that's not essential?
14:21<@Terkhen>I'll document it as implemented for stations only then :)
14:22<@Terkhen>(in openttd code)
14:22<frosch123>andythenorth: no, it is not essential
14:22*Terkhen is happy to have generic callback code already :P
14:23<frosch123>it won't help you much with the texts :p
14:23<@Terkhen>:)
14:23<frosch123>iirc it only chains through the grfs until it has a result; you would need to concat the texts
14:24<@Terkhen>ouch
14:24<frosch123>but, well, it already loads the texts
14:24<frosch123>s/texts/chains/
14:24*andythenorth sees why procedures are used
14:24<@Terkhen>the generic callback code will need many codechanges anyways; right now it is only prepared to deal with a single callback
14:25<@Terkhen>or at least some parts of the generic callback code
14:26<frosch123>btw. the industry window already concats the texts from multiple callbacks into a single string; so maybe that helps you
14:26<frosch123>(cargo suffixes and such)
14:29<@Terkhen>thanks, I'll look into it :)
14:29<@planetmaker>hm... generic callback. What will it enable? The persistant storage access?
14:30<frosch123>planetmaker: industries and object grfs displaying additional text in the town gui
14:30<@planetmaker>ah
14:31<@planetmaker>that sounds like a quite difficult change
14:31<frosch123>i doubt that scares terkhen :)
14:32<@Terkhen>hmm... can town generic callbacks access the town's persistent storage?
14:32<@Terkhen>it is a bit scary, yes :P
14:33<@Terkhen>but I have been doing only small stuff for months
14:33<frosch123>Terkhen: they have to, what else should they base their output on?
14:33<@Terkhen>does that mean that they should also have access all town variables?
14:33<@Terkhen>I'm a bit confused about how generic callbacks work, each one seems different :P
14:34<frosch123>however, changes to persistant storages by gui callbacks are reverted after the callback for obvious desync reasons
14:34<@Yexo>access to the town persistent storage makes it sound like a town callback, not a generic callback
14:34*Terkhen makes a note to test that once this is done
14:34<@Yexo>a generic callback should not reference to any object at all, or it wouldn't be a "generic" callback anymore
14:34<frosch123>Yexo: a generic callback for the town feature, yes
14:35<@Yexo>so a town callback
14:35<frosch123>"generic callback" only means, it is not assigned to any ID
14:35<@Yexo>if you see it that way, yes
14:35<frosch123>as towns are no grf defined entities, they have no ID
14:35<@planetmaker>they have an index
14:35<frosch123>the ai callback exists for all vehicle- and the station feature afaik
14:36<frosch123>planetmaker: but a grf won't set properties for town 0 :p
14:36<@Yexo>yes, but the ai callback can't access any vehicle or station specific variables
14:36<@planetmaker>not?
14:36<frosch123>there are no 'town classes'
14:36<@planetmaker>currently :-P
14:37<frosch123>Yexo: but only because the station/vehicle does not exist yet
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14:40<@Terkhen>I wonder if town classes would make sense
14:41-!-wattis [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
14:41<@Terkhen>if callbacks are good enough, it should be possible to implement town classes just using callbacks and persistent storage
14:41<@Terkhen>so probably not a good idea (as action0)
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14:42<@planetmaker>town classes... rather in the form of regions or so. But... all that can be done via houses or so
14:42<@Terkhen>http://wiki.openttd.org/Peter1138/Towngrowth_Challenge#Town_classification <--- I was thinking on those
14:42-!-wattis [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit []
14:42<@Terkhen>but they could be done via callbacks too
14:43<andythenorth>hmm
14:43<andythenorth>I can't compile advanced action 2 :)
14:43<andythenorth>renum is sad
14:43<andythenorth>maybe I can suppress those warnings?
14:44<andythenorth>can't disable fatal errors :(
14:45<andythenorth>hrrrp
14:45<@Terkhen>what is the error?
14:45<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/284/
14:45<andythenorth>might actually be valid, but I have no way to be sure
14:46<frosch123>Terkhen: nforenum not being ready for advanced sprite layout
14:46<@Terkhen>oh :P
14:46*andythenorth baby -> bed
14:47<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/wip_advsprlayout.diff <- did not got futher than that
14:47<frosch123>the autocorrect feature of action2 gives me trouble
14:47<frosch123>esp. as i do not see how it can actually fix something meaningful
14:50<@Yexo>does anyone use that?
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14:52<CIA-10>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22591 /trunk/src/newgrf_callbacks.h: -Doc: Callback 0x18 (AI purchase selection) is implemented for stations.
14:54<CIA-10>OpenTTD: frosch * r22592 /trunk/src/bmp.cpp: -Fix [FS#4645]: Reading of heightmaps with uncommon BMP formats failed due to uninitialised variables. (Parody)
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15:02<@planetmaker>wrt variables 18 and extra_callback_info_1 and ..._2: what's the better naming for consistency? I prefer extra_callback_info - but where to put the info that it's vars 10 and 18 then?
15:03<frosch123>well, they are not specific to callbacks
15:03<frosch123>they are also used for normal sprites
15:03<frosch123>e.g. station custom foundations or advanced sprite layout
15:03<frosch123>so, how about "extra info 10" and "extra info 18" ?
15:04-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
15:05<@planetmaker>hm... but people need to know also that it's a variable. I'm talking about the newgrf wiki
15:06<frosch123>imo "extra info 10/18" on the variationalaction2 page, and "variable 10/18" in the individual descriptions
15:06<frosch123>everything else is too long imo
15:07<frosch123>"extra info variable 10" or "extra callback info variable 10" :p
15:09<@planetmaker>hm... I like the extra callback info. But... I'm prejudiced by NML :-P
15:10<frosch123>it would be nice if the name contains 10 / 18 instead of 1 / 2. the rest is not that important imo
15:10<frosch123>i think most of the callback descriptions currently refer to variable 10 / 18
15:10<@planetmaker>most
15:10<frosch123>without any "extra", "callback" or "info"
15:11<@planetmaker>one or two mention it additionally as extra_callback_info 1/2
15:11<frosch123>but putting "variable 10" in the description of the variables on the variationalction2 page is silly :p
15:12<@planetmaker>:-)
15:25<andythenorth>autocorrect feature?
15:25*andythenorth has not really read nforenum docs
15:27<frosch123>it is quite handy when decoding .grf into .nfo
15:28<frosch123>it knows where to put escapes, strings, or plain hex in the nfo
15:28<frosch123>grfcodec only dumps random junk compared to that
15:28<andythenorth>makes sense
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15:29<@Yexo>frosch123: are you talking about the autocorrect feature or the beautifier?
15:29<andythenorth>ach
15:29<frosch123>but it also tried to fix others stuff, like differing feature bytes in action 1 and 2
15:29<andythenorth>I'll just hard-code snow ground tile into the graphics
15:29*andythenorth is impatient :P
15:29<frosch123>but i do not know how useful that is
15:30<frosch123>Yexo: i use the -a command line option to turn grfcodec qutoed text/hex mess into the right stuff
15:31<frosch123>the description says you can specify -a multiple times to activate more stuff, but i never did that :)
15:31<supermop>hello!
15:31<@Yexo>frosch123: I only ever used -b
15:31<@Yexo>actually it's -b+
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15:32<@Terkhen>hmm... I wonder if we should do a post regarding town control specs before implementing further stuff
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15:34<frosch123>Terkhen: first, we should have an idea what to do at all :)
15:35-!-ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has joined #openttd
15:36<frosch123>other than that, i guess everyone who would comment constructively is already in this channel
15:36<@Terkhen>http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Town_Control <--- the callbacks here (except maybe town found cost and size) make sense, but I'm not so sure about the variables
15:36<@Terkhen>when would be the Cargo requirement information callback called?
15:37<@Terkhen>I don't understand that one
15:37<frosch123>yes, the variables are questionable (esp. the city/town difference). but that cargo-requirement callback is questionable as well
15:37<frosch123>esp. due to ai information
15:37<frosch123>Terkhen: it's a gui callback
15:37<frosch123>called by the window and by ais
15:38<@Terkhen>hmm... so it is called for each cargo with a town effect? or for all cargos?
15:38<frosch123>the real decision is made by the growth callback
15:38<frosch123>but the idea is, that cargo delivery does not necessarily affect town growth, but could also affect industries, houses or objects in the town
15:39<frosch123>Terkhen: iirc for all cargos
15:39<frosch123>but the information can become quite complex for display :p
15:39<@Terkhen>it will be difficult if not impossible to make available to AIs all of that info :)
15:40<frosch123>that is the easy part
15:40<@Terkhen>because if town growth can access town variables then it can for example depend on the number of industries of type X around the town
15:40<frosch123>just add an api function which takes a town and a cargo as paramater, which returns the requirements
15:41<frosch123>oh, you mean general growth information
15:41<frosch123>yes, that will be difficult like stockpile limits :)
15:42<frosch123>a grf may as well decide to not make towns grow at all
15:43<@Terkhen>yes
15:43<frosch123>but, i guess knowing the exact growth requirements is actually not that important
15:43<frosch123>the ai only transports cargos anyway, so a hint what cargo might be useful, should be enough
15:43<frosch123>or, should an ai start to fund industries to make the town grow?
15:44-!-Chris_Booth [~chris@46.68.76.19] has joined #openttd
15:44<@Terkhen>not really, that would probably need specific support in the AI for that newgrf
15:44<@Terkhen>using towneffects for knowing what cargos have an effect should be enough
15:44<@Terkhen>then the callback could give a hint about each towneffect
15:44-!-Chris_Booth is now known as Chris_Booth[ph]
15:45<frosch123>towneffect is not that useful
15:45<frosch123>it basically has no meaning at all, it only controls various kinds of sideeffects
15:45<frosch123>like subsidaries
15:45<frosch123>subisides?
15:45<frosch123>subsidies?
15:46<@Terkhen>hmm... maybe this needs a new cargo variable, that would be responsible for giving the town growth hint
15:46<@Terkhen>subsidies
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15:46<@Terkhen>but using a cargo variable creates a big mess between town growth and industry newgrfs :)
15:47<@Terkhen>so it is probably not a great option
15:47-!-Guest4728 is now known as Chris_Booth
15:48<@planetmaker>cargo delivered and transported, thus what's going on on stations would not interfer with industries directly
15:49<frosch123>maybe it would also be a good idea to clean up the subsidy mess in ottd
15:50<@Terkhen>why is it a mess?
15:50<frosch123>and to detect what stuff is accepted by industries or houses
15:50<frosch123>Terkhen: the town effect defines whether the subsidy is for town->town, industry->town or industry->industry transportation
15:51<JVassie>hmm
15:51<frosch123>depending on that it will search for an industry, which produces/accepts it
15:51<JVassie>is it possible to change a station tile based on where abouts a train is within the platform?
15:51<frosch123>or for a big town (independent whether it actually accepts it)
15:51<JVassie>or on its 'ready to depart' state?
15:51<frosch123>JVassie: the station knows the pbs reservation stage
15:52<@Terkhen>hmm...
15:52<frosch123>so you can open doors when a train reserves a path into the station
15:52<@Terkhen>I start to understand the mess :)
15:52<JVassie>frosch123: you know how stations now have a somewhat built in PBS signal?
15:52<@Terkhen>it would be better to scan industries and towns to know for sure what subsidies can be created instead of relying on that property
15:52<frosch123>Terkhen: that mess is likely ottd specific. i guess ttdp just dropped subsidies support for new cargos
15:53<@Terkhen>yes, I checked towneffects on the specs, this behavior is openttd specific
15:54<@Terkhen>after fixing subsidies town effects could be deprecated in favour of something more flexible
15:54<frosch123>JVassie: the station does not know where the train is exactly, whether it is slowing, loading/accelerating, speeding up, or just passing through
15:55<frosch123>Terkhen: when the subsidy thing is removed, town effects could be used for growth again
15:55<frosch123>e.g. take a look at the ttdpatch towngrowth switches
15:55<frosch123>they can define cargo requirements for some default cargos
15:55<JVassie>how about at the point when the train sets a PBS reservation leavign the station?
15:55<JVassie>will the station know at that point?
15:56<frosch123>JVassie: it only knows about the reservation of station tiles
15:56<frosch123>enable the "show track reservation" in advanced settings, and see yourself
15:56<JVassie>hmm ok
15:57<JVassie>how does the built in signal work then out of itnerest?
15:57<JVassie>*interest
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16:00<@Terkhen>frosch123: then we would need a way to assign a "growth value" to each towneffect
16:02<supermop>So I haven't really been paying attention the last few months
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16:03<supermop>what is new
16:03<frosch123>Terkhen: there already is
16:03<frosch123>cargos have such a property
16:04<@Terkhen>but that is a multiplier for the cargo, not for the town effect itself
16:05<frosch123>hmm, where would that be needed?
16:06-!-CoreUK [5169d783@207.192.75.252] has joined #openttd
16:06<CoreUK>hello
16:06<@Terkhen>hi CoreUK
16:07<JVassie>planetmaker: found the switch :p
16:07<CoreUK>me and my friends are having trouble setting up a server
16:07<JVassie>} switch(FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, bulk_wagon_coal_year_switch, build_year < 1970) {
16:07<JVassie> 1: bulk_wagon_coal_early_group; bulk_wagon_coal_modern_group;
16:07<JVassie>}
16:07<JVassie>pretty simple tbh :D
16:07<CoreUK>are there some common problems ?
16:07<@Terkhen>frosch123: cargo multipliers for town growth would be like vehicle specific costs, multipliers for the town effect would be like basecosts
16:07<CoreUK>we have port forward on 3979, ubuntu 11.04, openttd version: 1.1.1
16:08<frosch123>Terkhen: but who would use them besides the growth callback?
16:08<@Terkhen>CoreUK: first try http://www.canyouseeme.org/ to see if the port was forwarded correctly
16:08<@Terkhen>frosch123: oh, true, you can multiply them by whatever you want at the callback :P
16:08<@Terkhen>a global multiplier is not needed then
16:08<CoreUK>success on 3979
16:09<@Terkhen>CoreUK: does your server appear on http://servers.openttd.org/?
16:09<CoreUK>Terkhen: yes
16:09<@Terkhen>hmmm... then the server is probably set correctly
16:10<CoreUK>http://www.openttd.org/en/server/45467
16:10<Chris_Booth>then you need to load a map and play
16:10<CoreUK>we did
16:10<+glx>if you see it on the site it's started
16:10<JVassie>i can see it on the server list
16:10<CoreUK>other people cannot connect
16:11<Chris_Booth>then its there issue not yours
16:11<Chris_Booth>can they see other servers?
16:11<CoreUK>ok
16:11<CoreUK>yes
16:11<Chris_Booth>you can give then the IP to your server
16:11<Chris_Booth>81.105.215.131:3979
16:11<Chris_Booth>and they can manualy add you
16:11<@Terkhen>CoreUK: I can connect fine to that server
16:12<CoreUK>ok
16:12<@planetmaker>JVassie: sure, it's no rocket science ;-)
16:12<CoreUK>hmm
16:12<CoreUK>it was
16:12<@Terkhen>my guess is that it is not a server side issue
16:12<CoreUK>possible connection loss no data received in x seconds
16:12<CoreUK>then a disconnect
16:12<+glx>wifi ?
16:12<@planetmaker>bad connection
16:12<JVassie>planetmaker: instead of the spritegroup i reference as the graphics set
16:12<JVassie>i specificy the switch name, correct?
16:13<andythenorth>it's more interesting here when people are doing stuff :P
16:13<JVassie>:p
16:13<CoreUK>ok guys thank you
16:13*andythenorth states the obvious ;)
16:13<JVassie>andythenorth: ever since I started being active!
16:13<Chris_Booth>I am on your server now CoreUK
16:13<Chris_Booth>its fine
16:13<@planetmaker>JVassie: yes
16:13<@Terkhen>frosch123: maybe the town growth callback should avoid using specific cargos and rely on town effects only
16:13<CoreUK>Chris_Booth: ok thank you
16:14<CoreUK>Chris_Booth, Terkhen, thank you I will ask they check out stuff at their end, regards
16:14<JVassie>planetmaker: awesoem thanks
16:14<andythenorth>hmm
16:14<andythenorth>cargos and towns
16:15<@Terkhen>meh, now I have to do something boring :P
16:15<andythenorth>the cleaner interface is to rely on town effect flag on cargos
16:15<andythenorth>it's reliable, but makes for quite a 1-dimensional gameplay effect
16:15<andythenorth>so towns only see cargos with flag set, and all those cargos are same
16:16<andythenorth>it's not very interesting
16:16-!-CoreUK [5169d783@207.192.75.252] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
16:16<frosch123>andythenorth: there are multiple town effects, not one
16:16<JVassie>planetmaker: works like a dream <3
16:16<@Terkhen>andythenorth: the town growth callback will take care of that linearity :)
16:16<@planetmaker>sweet sweet.
16:16<@Terkhen>once we know what it should do :P
16:16<@planetmaker>JVassie: you're building up expectations :-P
16:16<JVassie>checking off the features here :p
16:17<JVassie>in what regard?
16:17<andythenorth>how are town sets decoupled from specific industry sets?
16:17<@planetmaker>next week we expect the first release :-P
16:17<andythenorth>I can't see it
16:17<JVassie>lol
16:17<JVassie>im using graphics someoen drew back in 2005 :D
16:17<@planetmaker>so?
16:17<@Terkhen>andythenorth: town growth callback should IMO use only town effects
16:17<@planetmaker>JVassie: digital art doesn't rot ;-)
16:17<JVassie>i invented a 2nd livery to test the override :)
16:17<andythenorth>the existing town effects?
16:17<@Terkhen>then the specific cargos don't matter
16:17<andythenorth>or some new scheme of lables?
16:17<JVassie>by drawign a green stripe :D
16:18<JVassie>next thing is livery refits
16:18<JVassie>and random liveries
16:18<JVassie>then ill move onto MUs :)
16:18<@Terkhen>andythenorth: in which regard would labels be better?
16:18<andythenorth>not sure
16:19<andythenorth>how many current TE flags are there?
16:19<andythenorth>2-3?
16:19<@Terkhen>hmm... a cargo can't have two town effects at once
16:19<andythenorth>the existing system is a PITA when I tried to work with it
16:19<@Terkhen>what are TE flags?
16:19<andythenorth>Town Effect
16:19-!-Chris_Booth_ [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
16:19*andythenorth will look at actual spec instead of guessing :P
16:19<@Terkhen>andythenorth: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0Cargos#Substitute_type_and_multiplier_for_town_growth_.2818.2C_19.29 <--
16:20<@Terkhen>"how many" is not an issue, empty slots could be added
16:20<andythenorth>but it would need to be defined what they do
16:20<andythenorth>classes or labels or such
16:20<@Terkhen>heh, that's where labels start making sense, right? :P
16:21<andythenorth>in the current spec, 05 is TTDP only isn't it?
16:21<@planetmaker>andythenorth: labels have also a backdraw... if not well prepared.
16:21<frosch123>if you have to many labels, you tie the town growth to the industry grf
16:21<andythenorth>I can see
16:21<andythenorth>I don't like it
16:21<frosch123>which is the only one providing those labels
16:21<@planetmaker>Like railtype labels happily defined in each grf another one
16:21<andythenorth>I don't like tying town growth to industry grf at all
16:21<andythenorth>but there's no clean interface I can think of
16:21<@planetmaker>town persistant storage
16:21<andythenorth>cargos need to be defined by industry grf (is my assumption)
16:22<@planetmaker>that's already 65% there
16:22<frosch123>andythenorth: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0Cargos#Substitute_type_and_multiplier_for_town_growth_.2818.2C_19.29 <- we discussed earlier, that the right column has to vanish, before it can become useful
16:22-!-Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:22-!-Chris_Booth_ is now known as Chris_Booth
16:22<andythenorth>ok
16:22<andythenorth>hmm
16:22<@Terkhen>planetmaker: that still needs that the town growth newgrf and the industry newgrf work along
16:22<@planetmaker>of course
16:22<andythenorth>the assumption is that industry + town growth should *not* be coupled, yes / no?
16:22<andythenorth>there's no case for saying they are 'economy'
16:22<@Terkhen>which is fine if someone wants to do it, but we should also have a way of working transparently
16:23<andythenorth>and requiring to define all economy in one grf?
16:23<@planetmaker>yes... hm.
16:23<@Terkhen>andythenorth: they can be coupled if you want too; as tightly as you want
16:23<@planetmaker>Terkhen: special grfs slots: we could define one in a CTT type similar to the station delivery thing
16:23<@Terkhen>but IMO we should have a clean way of working without knowledge of what is the other newgrf doing
16:23<andythenorth>well houses are quite decoupled from town growth nicely as I understand it
16:23<andythenorth>so we don't need to think about house sets
16:24<@planetmaker>the 0xFEFFFFFF range allows to pre-define some of those
16:24<@Terkhen>andythenorth: everything with access to town persistent storage can modify town growth :P
16:24<andythenorth>there will need to be conventions
16:24<@Terkhen>as long as the town growth grf is made that way
16:24<andythenorth>otherwise you're just coding something that newgrf authors will turn into a cluster fuck :D
16:24<@Terkhen>hmm... not really, they can't write in the register of the town growth grf
16:24<@Terkhen>but the town growth grf could check the register of the house/industry newgrf
16:24<@planetmaker>mostly it needs a indeed well-defined and specific-grf independent interface
16:25<@Terkhen>yes, that
16:25<@planetmaker>at least that's desirable
16:25<@planetmaker>railtypes unfortunately don't have that with vehicles
16:25<@Terkhen>so the point is: why are town effects not enough in this regard?
16:25<@planetmaker>well... not as good as I'd like, but I've no better idea. anyway...
16:25<andythenorth>this is more complicated when I try and consider YACD
16:25<andythenorth>or YACD-alike
16:25<@Terkhen>why?
16:26<andythenorth>because a town may demand certain cargos for growth, but the industry grf doesn't locate destinations for them and/or YACD doesn't route any cargo there
16:26<@Terkhen>because YACD has no support for customizing its behaviour regarding newgrf cargos?
16:26-!-bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd
16:26<andythenorth>it's a lot of stuff that can go wrong
16:26<@planetmaker>Terkhen: in principle I could want to make the growth callback depend the amount and type of cargo. Thus an enhanced town growth effect
16:26<@Terkhen>well, that's IMO an issue of YACD that can also happen with standard town growth
16:27<andythenorth>so we ignore YACD
16:27<@planetmaker>but basically defining towns newgrf-able would IMHO superseed the cargo's property
16:27<frosch123>andythenorth: houses might also want to access the cargo history
16:27<@Terkhen>andythenorth: not ignore it, but ignore known issues
16:27<andythenorth>for both ECS and FIRS (and I think TAI), the industry grf has to take care of providing town cargo sink industries
16:27<andythenorth>so it would be unwise for towns to demand specific cargos for growth
16:27<@Terkhen>planetmaker: so it would depend on specific cargos?
16:27<frosch123>e.g. they might want to build different houses depending on whether the town deals a lot with valueables or rather with iron ore or steel
16:28<@Terkhen>oh, I never thought of that :O
16:28<frosch123>and it makes no sense to tie those things to a town effect
16:28<andythenorth>Towns would have no way of guaranteeing that a required cargo can be delivered :o
16:28<@planetmaker>Terkhen: the town could itself define the cargos it wants... but indeed... specific cargos is an issue
16:28<andythenorth>because they can't control the building of specific houses or industries
16:28<andythenorth>so no guarantee of a destination
16:28<@Terkhen>andythenorth: industry newgrfs have no way of guaranteeing that their cargos can be transported, because they have no control over vehicle newgrfs
16:28<@planetmaker>so... it has access to a town's CTT which only gives back anonymously the growth cargos?
16:29<andythenorth>Terkhen: that just reintroduces labels :P
16:29<@planetmaker>oh no
16:29<@Terkhen>planetmaker: that might be an option, but we need also a way that is completely independent of present cargos
16:29<frosch123>so, imo there are some cases where a grf might be interested in a specific cargo, and not in classes
16:29<frosch123>just because noone defined those classes in advance
16:29<@planetmaker>of course
16:29-!-welshdragon [~dragon@anubis.millsie.net] has left #openttd [Leaving]
16:29<andythenorth>I wonder if the destination should write to a specific set of registers the town can use for growth
16:30<andythenorth>how much storage is there?
16:30<@planetmaker>64k
16:30<@planetmaker>dword
16:30<@planetmaker>or?
16:30<@Terkhen>frosch123: true, it should be able to access cargos by label
16:30<andythenorth>so how many slots? 65,356 or so?
16:30<@planetmaker>terkhen knows :-P
16:30<Wolf01>'night
16:30-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host109-162-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
16:30<@planetmaker>andythenorth: pools are limited to exactly 64k
16:30<@planetmaker>at least most
16:30<@Terkhen>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Storages#Persistent_storage_accessed_by_GRFID <--- the specs know
16:31<@Terkhen>planetmaker: right now OpenTTD can have up to 0xFF000 persistent storages
16:31<@planetmaker>he... that's even more
16:31<andythenorth>I'm wondering if we could reserve 256 specific slots for town effects
16:31<@Terkhen>they are limited to 24 bits (as vehicles are)
16:31<andythenorth>hmm
16:31*andythenorth is thinking out loud
16:31<+michi_cc>YACD could force a demand link for each growth cargo (if accepted), just like it is implemented for industries right now.
16:31<@Terkhen>most pools only use 16 bits
16:32*andythenorth thinks
16:32<andythenorth>for the cases I was envisaging
16:32<andythenorth>it's not necessarily specific cargo delivered that should count
16:32<+michi_cc>Of course, some people will complain about too many destinations of those cargos only have very few producers.
16:32<andythenorth>it might be a specific industry receiving some input cargo
16:32<frosch123>so, maybe we can agree on town effect for growth, and specific cargo for other visual stuff?
16:32<andythenorth>whether that cargo has town effect is up to the receiving industry
16:32<@planetmaker>nice wiki page, Terkhen :-)
16:33*andythenorth feels like he is onto something but can't quite write it down
16:33<@planetmaker>andythenorth: town effect is a cargo property. Not industry
16:34<andythenorth>not really
16:34<andythenorth>consider electricity
16:34<andythenorth>or wood
16:34-!-CIA-10 [~CIA@cia.atheme.org] has quit []
16:34<@planetmaker>yes?
16:34-!-CIA-2 [~CIA@cia.atheme.org] has joined #openttd
16:35<andythenorth>in PBI, wood delivered to a fuel depot might be town growth
16:35<andythenorth>but not if delivered to a sawmill in a town radius
16:35<andythenorth>coal to power station could be town growth
16:35<@planetmaker>eh?
16:35<andythenorth>but not coal to steel mill
16:36-!-welshdragon [~dragon@anubis.millsie.net] has joined #openttd
16:36<andythenorth>town growth shouldn't be tied to specific cargos
16:36<@Terkhen>frosch123: do you mean using both?
16:36*andythenorth needs to consider default case (no industry newgrf)
16:37<@Terkhen>I'm now convinced that specific cargos must be present
16:37<@Terkhen>but I'm not sure if town effects are enough for handling "generic" town growth
16:37<frosch123>imo it is not only about town growth
16:37<welshdragon>Gentlemen, I have a server on ubuntu, can I get openttd to look at a seperate config file?
16:37<frosch123>there are various other reasons to check for a cargo
16:38<frosch123>welshdragon: there is a command line option for that
16:38<@Terkhen>frosch123: for example?
16:38-!-Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing]
16:39<welshdragon>frosch123, is it a startup command?
16:39<@planetmaker>like the difference between manchaster and london
16:39<frosch123>22:27] <frosch123> house grfs might want to build different houses depending on whether the town deals a lot with valueables or rather with iron ore or steel
16:39<frosch123>welshdragon: yes, run with option --help to see what is available
16:39<@Terkhen>yes, I was thinking only about the town growth callback
16:39<@planetmaker>mining town vs. commercial centre vs. farming "town"
16:40<@Terkhen>and that house grf would be awesome :P
16:40<andythenorth>we definitely envisage standalone grfs for town control?
16:40<frosch123>of course you could also try to attach that to industry types
16:40<@Terkhen>so... maybe a 60+ var with cargo label as parameter?
16:40<@Yexo>frosch123: so something like station var 69 but for towns?
16:40<frosch123>like primary or secondary industries, but that is really up to the grf
16:40<@planetmaker>andythenorth: would IMHO make sense to some extend
16:40<@planetmaker>much better scenario control possible than mixing it with houses
16:40<supermop>like those big silk drying towers in san giamino for a town that handles a lot of textile?
16:41<frosch123>Yexo: http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Town_Control 61 + 62
16:41<@planetmaker>meanwhile I don't fancy too much the close mixture of cargos and industries :-P
16:41<@planetmaker>but... :-)
16:41<frosch123>also see 44 + 47
16:41<frosch123>44 - 47
16:41<welshdragon>oh, bugger, I can't start another dedicated server while running a dedicated
16:41*andythenorth does puzzle
16:42<frosch123>they were meant to somehow categorise the town without knowing about particular industries or whatever
16:42<@planetmaker>hm... yes
16:42<frosch123>sure, they could also be used for towngrowth
16:42<andythenorth>it seems quite horrible to make the town have to know about n cargos from those already defined
16:42<andythenorth>but to get those effects described, there's no alternative
16:43<andythenorth>how many cargo labels do we already have?
16:43<@planetmaker>it's less horible as it sounds, I think
16:43<andythenorth>I guess vehicle grfs deal with it
16:43<@planetmaker>frosch123: esp. 61 sounds exactly like the common interface
16:43<frosch123>andythenorth: a grf can have 255 labels in the cargo trans table
16:43<@planetmaker>vehicle grfs are only on the receiving end, they're easy
16:44<@Terkhen>and 62 too :P
16:44<andythenorth>I would *not* want to be an author testing a town control gr
16:44<welshdragon>can I tell openTTD to use port 3978 or something?
16:44<@Terkhen>welshdragon: edit your openttd.cfg and change the port
16:44*andythenorth wonders
16:44<andythenorth>is there not some way we could do it simpler for once?
16:45<frosch123>andythenorth: if the author makes it too complicated, it is his own fault
16:45<@Terkhen>what would be simpler than towneffects?
16:45<@Terkhen>IMO they might be too simple :P
16:45<@Belugas>pick a microphone, plug it in the computer and say "Openttd, use port xxxx instead of yyyy"
16:45<@Terkhen>:D
16:46<@planetmaker>a sensitive enough accelerometer will do, too
16:46<frosch123>Belugas: but you have to say it with a very clear dutch accent
16:46<@Belugas>hehehe
16:47-!-Twerkhoven[L] [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
16:47<@Terkhen>after this chat I'm convinced about vars 60-66
16:48-!-pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5558.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own]
16:48<andythenorth>yarp
16:49<@planetmaker>he. During road reconstruction: no growth :-P
16:50<@planetmaker>hm... with growth control there, TAI could actually work...
16:50<@planetmaker>if growth callback could just fail then
16:51<@Terkhen>yes, pikka should check that document too
16:52<@Terkhen>not sure if he checked it before I started being interested on this
16:53<welshdragon>Ok, can somebody (other than frosch123) tell me how to start a server which reads a config file in another directory?
16:53<frosch123>Terkhen: the cargo history has a draw back though
16:54<frosch123>it requires that the stuff is actually serviced, or you cannot detect the presence of secondary industries producing steel
16:54<frosch123>so, maybe one would rather know potential production of cargos instead of actual production
16:54<@Terkhen>welshdragon: what else do you need to know?
16:54<welshdragon>Terkhen, nothing
16:54<welshdragon>:)
16:54<@Terkhen>ok
16:54<@Terkhen>frosch123: hmm... can we know that?
16:55<frosch123>you know the output cargos of industries
16:55<andythenorth>hence industry writes to the town
16:55<andythenorth>but that means industry sets have to know about town growth spec
16:55<frosch123>you could e.g. count the number of industries producing goods or something like that
16:55<frosch123>andythenorth: no, we do not want to require industry sets to supply additional data
16:55<@Terkhen>but we would not know the amounts
16:56<frosch123>there is plenty available already
16:56<andythenorth>hmm
16:56<frosch123>Terkhen: you only know the amounts, if they are actually serviced
16:56<andythenorth>no electric pony for you then :P
16:57<welshdragon>nobody? :)
16:58<@Terkhen>frosch123: hmm... so number of industries that produce/accept the cargo label passed by parameter?
16:58<frosch123>maybe something like that.
16:59<frosch123>however currently all variables expect a index to the cargo trans table
16:59<frosch123>no direct label
16:59<@Terkhen>hmmm... how does that work?
16:59<@Terkhen>only for the newgrf using it?
17:00<@Terkhen>would be the same for town growth newgrfs anyways, they would need their cargo table too
17:00<frosch123>the cargo translation table of the grf accessing the variable
17:00<frosch123>same as for the station cargo variable
17:02<welshdragon>openttd@welshdragon:~/Chipp_v13_5$ openttd -D -c /home/openttd/Chipp_v13.5/openttd.cfg -d net=0
17:02<welshdragon>will that find the config file specified?
17:03<@Terkhen>should this variable have a towneffect version too?
17:04<frosch123>maybe for consistency, no idea
17:04<andythenorth>mm
17:04<@Terkhen>makes sense for consistency, yes
17:05<andythenorth>town growth gives me a headache :)
17:05<welshdragon>am I being ignored? :(
17:06<Chris_Booth>yes welshdragon
17:07-!-bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:07<@Yexo>welshdragon: you keep asking questions you can easily find the answer to yourself in a few minutes
17:08<welshdragon>Yexo, I prefer to ask a person instead of reading
17:09<@Yexo>and I prefer to only spend time answering questions when the person asking them has already tried to find the answer himself
17:09<Chris_Booth>welshdragon: what I think Yexo is trying to say is this isn't a help line to walk you through setting up a server
17:09<@Yexo>for your last question: yes, that should work
17:09<welshdragon>it doesn't
17:15<@Terkhen>frosch123: http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Town_Control <--- something like this I guess
17:18<frosch123>yeah, i guess there is no point in counting houses
17:18<frosch123>esp. as the house cargos are not known properly
17:18<+glx>welshdragon: and if you move -D after -c ?
17:19<@Terkhen>ok :)
17:19<Ammler>welshdragon: why don't you simply try?
17:19<@Terkhen>I'll start with subsidies anyways
17:19<@Terkhen>nice mess :P
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17:22<frosch123>:)
17:23<@Terkhen>after that I guess that it would make sense to implement support for listing all cargos sharing the same town effect instead of showing a single one at the town gui
17:23<andythenorth>meh
17:23<andythenorth>town effect should be abolished :P
17:24<@Terkhen>what should be used instead of it?
17:24<andythenorth>keeping it is going to messy
17:24<andythenorth>town growth will be the preserve of the town grf
17:24<@Terkhen>and why is it going to be messy?
17:24<andythenorth>keeping town effect implies industry sets can control town growth
17:25<@Terkhen>a town growth newgrf can ignore town effect if it chooses to
17:25<andythenorth>I know it will work
17:25<andythenorth>but it's messy
17:25<andythenorth>industry grfs will be setting properties that are then ignored
17:26<andythenorth>it just makes everything harder to work with
17:26<@Terkhen>they don't have to be ignored, other town growth newgrfs could use them too
17:26<@Terkhen>it's a way of providing a hint to the town newgrf
17:27<andythenorth>hmm
17:27<andythenorth>maybe I just got up too early :)
17:27<@Terkhen>honestly I don't think a cleaner way is possible; with communication you also get this kind of problems :)
17:27<andythenorth>this seems like it's going to be heading the same way as inflation, and economy
17:27<@Terkhen>what way?
17:27<andythenorth>inflation is broken so sensible newgrfs ignore it
17:28<andythenorth>trying to make an industry set work with economies is near impossible
17:28<andythenorth>so industry grfs over-ride it
17:28<andythenorth>or ignore it
17:28<frosch123>a industry newgrf should just not care about towngrowth
17:28<andythenorth>in which case why leave a messy bit of spec in place?
17:29<andythenorth>maybe I can make the case better another day :)
17:29<andythenorth>don't let me delay the writing of code ;)
17:29<@Terkhen>because town growth newgrfs might want to assign different effects to different cargos, without having to rely on specific labels
17:29<andythenorth>but then industry authors are going to complain
17:29<@Terkhen>andythenorth: don't worry, I have to fix a big mess before coding variables
17:30<andythenorth>I only set town growth effect because I have to currently
17:30<andythenorth>with town growth, I wouldn't set those flags
17:30<@Terkhen>why not? :/
17:30<andythenorth>there's no point, the effect is completely indeterministic
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17:31<@Terkhen>maybe it is because I'm sleepy already, but I don't understand your point
17:31<andythenorth>by setting the flag, the industry author is trying to control something that is outside their domain
17:31<@Terkhen>it is not more indeterministic than the rest of interactions between different newgrfs IMO
17:31<frosch123>andythenorth: you should set the "food" effect if the cargo supplies houses
17:31*andythenorth is also sleepy and may be explaining badly
17:31<frosch123>you should not care whether it makes towns grow
17:32<andythenorth>I don't want to care at all :)
17:32<andythenorth>I want to not have to care about those flags
17:32<andythenorth>anyways, it's not about me :P
17:32<andythenorth>and I'm sure you understand the actual issues better than me
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17:34<@Terkhen>hmm... I can't think of a way that does not need setting some property for cargos
17:34<@Terkhen>except relying only on cargo labels
17:35<frosch123>night
17:35-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fef75.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:35*andythenorth bed too
17:35<@planetmaker>night frosch123
17:35<@Terkhen>good night frosch and andythenorth
17:35<@planetmaker>and g'night andythenorth
17:35<andythenorth>Terkhen: good luck solving it ;)
17:35<@Terkhen>I can't fix it if I don't understand the issue :)
17:35<andythenorth>relying on labels *might* just be enough
17:35<@Terkhen>let's talk about this again other day :P
17:35<andythenorth>but anyway - bed for me
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17:39<andythenorth>Terkhen: it suddenly was clear to me, might not be able to explain it though :P
17:39<@Terkhen>:D
17:39<andythenorth>town effect should be preserved, but disabled if a town-control grf is loaded
17:39<andythenorth>that way it's very enforced in the spec about responsibilities of different authors
17:39<andythenorth>but doesn't break default situation
17:40<andythenorth>otherwise town grf and industry grf authors are going to have a horrible time
17:40<@planetmaker>probably
17:40<andythenorth>I already have enough discussions about 'please change class on xyz to support my town / vehicle set'
17:40<andythenorth>industry authors are going to bitch at town authors and vice versa
17:40<@Terkhen>buf if town effects are disabled, that means that a town grf should be able to replicate the default behavior without using town effects
17:41<andythenorth>'please set town effect growth on ECS cargo xyz so I don't have to bother checking a lot of cargos'
17:41<@Terkhen>how will it know what cargos should affect town growth as passengers do without specific support to industry newgrfs?
17:41<andythenorth>check for label PASS
17:41<andythenorth>it's not going anywhere :P
17:41<@Terkhen>that will fail for tourists
17:41<andythenorth>so check the class
17:41<andythenorth>those interfaces can't change that much, or all vehicle support breaks. As endlessly discussed :P
17:42<andythenorth>:D
17:42<andythenorth>maybe a bad idea, but it seems like some leap is needed
17:42<andythenorth>we can't have all of everything
17:42<andythenorth>something has to give
17:42<@Terkhen>hmmm... you can reliabily check for passengers and mail with classes, but I'm not so sure about stuff like water and food
17:42<andythenorth>there are too many nodes in this network - the communication overhead is too high :P
17:42<@Terkhen>I'm not against deprecating town effects, but there must be some alternative
17:42<andythenorth>towns have to explicitly check for cargos
17:43<@Terkhen>hmmm... it's more consistent, yes
17:43<andythenorth>same as vehicle sets doing graphic support
17:43<andythenorth>it's just a varaction 2
17:43<andythenorth>not a trauma
17:43<supermop>wait
17:43-!-hgnmu128 [~hgnmu128@117.204.82.101] has joined #openttd
17:43<andythenorth>wait!
17:43<supermop>is town control happening?
17:43<andythenorth>ish
17:44<andythenorth>if the spec can be made sane
17:44<supermop>im so out of it
17:44<@Terkhen>supermop: kinda
17:44<andythenorth>and if Terkhen doesn't get bored of it ;)
17:44<@Terkhen>check the irc logs of the last 4 hours :P
17:44<supermop>just started reading forums again after 2 onths
17:44<andythenorth>Terkhen: sleep on it :P
17:44<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I'll think about it, yes
17:44<supermop>and i am never payig attention on irc because i am at work
17:44<andythenorth>it doesn't have to be my suggestion, but something has to go somewhere
17:45<andythenorth>anyway, for the second time, good night ;)
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17:45<@Terkhen>supermop: I'm half asleep so I can only give you the super abbreviated version :P
17:45<@Terkhen>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Storages#Persistent_storage_accessed_by_GRFID <--- town persistent storage has already happened
17:46<@Terkhen>http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Town_Control <--- there are specs for callbacks and variables, but as you can see, they are being discussed
17:47<@Terkhen>I don't think there is anything about this at the forums, though... I'd prefer to have more clear specs before that
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17:52<@Terkhen>good night
17:55<supermop>cool
17:55<supermop>later
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18:03<CORE_UK>hey guys. our group is wanting to set up some openttd servers anyone here with experience of this?
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18:10<@planetmaker>good night
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18:25<hgnmu128>Is there a way to soft-link from TT Wiki to NewGRF-Specs Wiki?
18:26<JVassie>define soft-link?
18:27<hgnmu128>Links that doesn't have a trailing arrow-like thingy, I guess.
18:28<JVassie>dont think so
18:28<JVassie>you either use [ ] or [[ ]]
18:28<JVassie>and [[ ]] is internal only
18:28<JVassie>unless you can setup a class of [ ] which doesnt display the arrow
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>how does wikipedia do this with the different language wikis?
18:28<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: those are different wikis
18:29<hgnmu128>http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/SandBox
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yes, exactly like the tt-wiki and the specs-wiki, or am i misinformed?
18:30<hgnmu128>I meant the internal link. The domains may be a problem, won't they?
18:30<@planetmaker>and they'rehttp://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Pywikipediabot/interwiki.py <-- with something like that
18:30<hgnmu128>Eddi: You're not misinformed, AFAICT
18:31<hgnmu128>planetmaker: It is for different language projects, or so says the page.
18:32<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: like that yes. Though that they may contain the same content in different languages
18:32<@planetmaker>thus the same things are shown in the language links
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: he means something like: "is it possible to do [[newgrf-specs:Somewhere]]?"
18:33<JVassie>planetmaker: any examples in NML of a) livery refits and b) random liveries ?
18:34<@planetmaker>iirc not. But... what's the difference to a normal link? I see no detriment
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18:34<@planetmaker>JVassie: yes/no and yes
18:35<JVassie>i presuem the latter is for a wagon?
18:35<@planetmaker>best look at the flatbed wagon, I think. There you can refit the wagon to several things
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: imho same argument as against using absolute urls everywhere
18:36<JVassie>thanks planetmaker
18:36<JVassie>does that include random livery too i presume?
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: e.g. things like "what pages link here" could be calculated easier, cross-wiki
18:37<@planetmaker>JVassie: the flatbed wagons have randomly different cargo representations
18:37<JVassie>lurvely :)
18:38<@planetmaker>and a true livery override can be found for all MU trains, they all have each their won pax/mail/valuable wagons
18:38<@planetmaker>fitting to the engines
18:38<@planetmaker>anyway.... I was about to sleep ;-)
18:39<hgnmu128>I guess Owen should've made a different namespace, or maybe just a directory like structure, instead of different domains, but anyway it's just my opinion of course.
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18:41<@Yexo>the different domain was intentional, and imo a good choice
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>btw.: what is this /wiki/ intermediate path for? it's just redundant
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18:41<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: a default from mediawiki I believe
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>iirc we had that discussion for openttd wiki before
18:41<@planetmaker>that's recommended setup for mediawikis, Eddi|zuHause
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18:41<@planetmaker>bad things [TM] might happen if not
18:41<@planetmaker>quote from a not-bookmarked random mediawiki page
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>no bad things happened on openttd wiki
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18:44<hgnmu128>OpenTTD wiki uses the redundant path, doesn't it?
18:44<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: try to have a wiki page named robots.txt (well, not very relevant to OTTD, but very relevant to wikipedia, which is probably why /wiki/ is recommended)
18:45<hgnmu128>Oh it doesn't.
18:45<hgnmu128>http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/Supprimer_les_portions_de_route_absurdes_lors_de_la_reconstruction/Fr
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: that's a handful of special cases that can be handled.
18:46<hgnmu128>It redirects to the link sans /wiki, so openTTD wiki does have that structure internally.
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18:50<welshdragon>I want to cry :(
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>hgnmu128: it was even worse initially, it used /wiki/index.php/
18:53<hgnmu128>I used to play OpenTTD since 0.5.x or something but didn't give the development or the Wiki a damn before 0.9.x or so. I feel sorry 'bout that. Missed loads of fun it seems.
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>there was no 0.9.x ;)
18:53<JVassie>hmm
18:54<JVassie>would it be possible to draw a station tile that extends down over the foundations?
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: stations can define custom foundations
18:54<JVassie>:o
18:54<JVassie>new(ish) feature?
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>2years-ish
18:54<@Yexo>no, very old
18:54<JVassie>lol
18:55<@Yexo>hmm, that new?
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>might be older
18:58<JVassie>flag 13?
18:58<@Yexo>august 2007
18:58<JVassie>you just made Ameecher a happy man
18:58<@Yexo>IIRC one of mb's grfs already has such a feature
18:58<@Yexo>it shows some shops instead of brick foundations
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>one of the unreleased ones
18:58<@Yexo>probably
18:58<JVassie>yeah
18:58<JVassie>Ameecher said that too
18:58<JVassie>awesome
18:58<JVassie>add it to the feature list
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19:01<hgnmu128>"there was no 0.9.x ;)" - Maybe x is large enough to get a carry into the 9... xD
19:02<hgnmu128>Shouldn't this: http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/PoweredWagons be in the newgrf-specs wiki?
19:02*JVassie trots off to ottd suggestions forum
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=59360
19:03<JVassie>omg :o
19:03<JVassie>nice
19:03<JVassie>were planning similar :p
19:04*JVassie wants to request a more advanced stations gui though :p
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>"Wie kommt man denn an solche Bahnhöfe ???" - "An diesen hier? Du fährst zu MBs Haus, und prü^Wredest so lange auf ihn ein, bis er endlich mal ein Release macht."
19:04<hgnmu128>You Dutch?
19:05<JVassie>thats german
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19:06<@planetmaker>and a true answer to the question
19:06<JVassie>planetmaker: going to bed soon? ;p
19:06<JVassie>a /whois reveals a german IP i believe
19:06<hgnmu128>The answer and question, both are in that German, is it?
19:07<@Yexo><hgnmu128> Shouldn't this: http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/PoweredWagons be in the newgrf-specs wiki? <- that page looks more like tutorial than spec to me
19:07<@planetmaker>:-P
19:07<hgnmu128>That's what they said they wanted in <to-write>. But going by the page name...
19:08<@Yexo>oh well, perhaps
19:08<@planetmaker>that's tutorial. not specs
19:09<hgnmu128>Okay.
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=516022#p516022 <-- (TTDPatch) Screenshot is already from Nov 2006
19:11<hgnmu128>planetmaker: You mean "it should be tutorial and it is", or "it has wrongly been made tutorial, you idiot"?
19:12<@planetmaker>hgnmu128: it's a tutorial and IMHO does not belong to the newgrf-specs wiki. Thus it's fine in the general tt-wiki
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19:13<@planetmaker>apropos hgnmu128 I rolled back your one edit as you copied the info from a page which we have no explicit right to copy from
19:13<@planetmaker>Or did you ask the person you quoted for permission?
19:13<hgnmu128>Thanks. And you talking in sleep?
19:14<hgnmu128>planetmaker: I thought your name was Mr. Borstel, not Mr.Blunck.
19:14<@planetmaker>except that you miss part of my name, what's your point?
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19:15<hgnmu128>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action3LiveryOverride
19:15<hgnmu128>Owen has copied it too.
19:15<hgnmu128>And I'm sorry for missing part of your name. :(
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19:17*hgnmu128 slaps himself for being such and idiot.
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19:26<hgnmu128>planetmaker: There has been a misunderstanding. I couldn't understand you were talking about the 'VarAction2 Towns' page, until later.
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19:32<CORE_UK>hey guys. our group is wanting to set up some openttd servers anyone here with experience of this?
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19:44<JVassie>hmm how about this, aye?
19:44<JVassie>http://www.jvassie.net/BMSS/images/platformsonbridge.png
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20:01<Eddi|zuHause>on top of many people's whishlist :p
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>not possible, though, and not likely in the near/medium future either
20:03<JVassie>ohreally?
20:03<JVassie>:p
20:03<JVassie>im considering it beign fake
20:03<JVassie>*being
20:03<JVassie>ie create foundations which look like a bridge
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>the professional term is "mockup" :p
20:04<JVassie>indeed so
20:04<JVassie>like the image above :p
20:04<JVassie>and also wooo \o/
20:04<JVassie>random livery done in NML :)
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20:04<JVassie>cha ching
20:04<Eddi|zuHause>fake bridges cause many kinds of trouble...
20:05<JVassie>how so?
20:05<Eddi|zuHause>people demanding real bridges :p
20:05<JVassie>hahah
20:05<JVassie>I cannot accept responsibility for that :p
20:05<JVassie>hmm
20:05<JVassie>tryign ti find an example of livery refit in NML
20:06<JVassie>*to
20:07<JVassie>its hard to do in straight nfo anyway, no?
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: the other kind of trouble is compatibility with base sets and road sets
20:07<JVassie>indeed
20:07<JVassie>thats a concern
20:07<JVassie>it most likely wont be included
20:07<JVassie>well
20:07<JVassie>8shrug*
20:07<JVassie>gives me another idea for an advanced station gui
20:07<JVassie>:p
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21:25<Eddi|zuHause>i think "MSS" is a bad abbreviation, as it is too close to "MTSS"
21:26<supermop>or MLSS
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