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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-06-16

---Logopened Thu Jun 16 00:00:57 2011
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01:02<bodis>morning
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01:51<@Terkhen>good morning
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02:57<@planetmaker>moin
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05:25<Core>Hello
05:25<Core>Does anyone have any experiance in setting up a server?
05:25<@Yexo>Core: would it help you if I said yes?
05:25<@Yexo>why not ask your real question
05:27<Core>I doesnt have a set question as such. Just advice and tips maybe. A group I am part of wants to create a few servers for us, I wondered if there were any recommended ways to implement them to include features such as city builder, cross-server chatting auto restart etc
05:27<@Yexo>not sure what "city builder" is, but I assume a custom patch from somewhere
05:28<@Yexo>in that case you'll have to compile openttd yourself, at least for the server and possible also for clients
05:28<Core>okay
05:28<@Yexo>I don't know about any other server that has enabled cross-server chatting, there are several with a game-irc bridge
05:28<@Terkhen>auto restart IIRC is a setting in openttd.cfg
05:29<@Yexo>either that, or you could use ap+
05:29<Core>game-irc bridge would be awesum
05:29<@Yexo>search for ap+ (autopilot+)
05:29<@Yexo>it's somewhere on the openttdcoop wiki
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05:30<Core>ok thank you Yexo
05:30<Core>any idea on the irc bridge?
05:30<@Yexo>also ap+
05:31<Wolf01>hello
05:31<@Yexo>hello Wolf01
05:31<Core>ok thank you
05:31<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
05:31<@Terkhen>IIRC joan also was able to do a irc bridge
05:31<@Yexo>oh, yes, I forgot about that :)
05:31<Core>Joan?
05:32<@Yexo>another project, written to use the admin port of openttd instead of as a wrapper around the commandline
05:32<@Terkhen>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/joan <--- also in openttdcoop
05:32<Core>the coop team contribute alot back into openttd eh :)
05:32<@Terkhen>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/grapes <--- and the bot
05:33<@Yexo>in the case of joan it was not written by someone from openttdcoop, just hosted there
05:33<Core>oh okay
05:33<@Yexo>in general yes, some members of openttdcoop contribute a lot
05:33<Core>well thanks Yexo and Terkhen
05:33<@Terkhen>I have never looked too much into it so I can't help much with the details, I just knew that it existed :)
05:33<Core>certainly given me some greater starting points
05:33<Core>great*
05:34<@Yexo>for more details on joan you can ask dihedral, the developer of it
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05:41<__ln__>US Air Force demonstration squadron Thunderbirds practicing in the sky above our office
05:42<@Terkhen>no work being done at all then?
05:43<__ln__>not much. looks like they've landed now though
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05:46<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r22593 /trunk/src/station_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4647]: don't show cargo accepted/produced in the new station window when no tiles are selected (mouse hovering a window or toolbar)
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06:16<JVassie>morning all
06:16<JVassie>all morning
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06:26<@Terkhen>hi JVassie
06:40<JVassie>how are we on this rainy and miserable day?
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06:44<@Terkhen>35º is quite miserable, but I can't agree on the rainy part
06:45<@peter1138>way too hot :S
06:45<@Terkhen>it will be around 40 in a few weeks :P
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06:59<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r22594 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4644]: add active NewGRFs to the list of available ones when selecting the empty preset
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08:22<Eddi|zuHause>i hate it when my crystal ball is right...
08:23<Noldo>why?
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>means people are actually as stupid as i thought they were.
08:26<@planetmaker>hehe
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08:48<Eddi|zuHause>hm... can newgrf warnings/errors be displayed in a red box upon start/load, not only in the newgrf window?
08:48<@Yexo>errors should be already
08:48<@Yexo>only the first fatal error though
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's only "there was an error"
08:54<@Terkhen>only fatal errors, yes
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>maybe, the newgrf window should pop up if there was a warning/error
08:57<@Terkhen>huh... there are no mail subsidies?
08:57*Terkhen never noticed until now
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>afair, each cargo has a flag that can remove it from subsidies
08:59<@Terkhen>when creating a subsidy between two towns, OpenTTD never considers mail, only pax
08:59<@Terkhen>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/954
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09:06<@Belugas>hello
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09:23<@planetmaker>Terkhen: but pas and mail generation are directly linked iirc
09:24<@planetmaker>hm... though houses can define an individual mail multiplicator
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>err... why would generation have anything to do with that?
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>subsidies are supposed to initiate transportation
09:27<@planetmaker>:-) if they're linked by a multiplicator you can look for pax and randomly decide to do mail instead. Thus no new "lookup routine" needed
09:28<@Terkhen>I'm making a new lookup routine anyways :)
09:29<@Terkhen>why houses don't have a way of defining different cargos for acceptance?
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>they do
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. in one of MBs unreleased house sets, houses accept coal. and display smoke animation if the nearby station statistics say coal was delivered recently
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>(but that statistics was unimplemented last time i checked)
09:31<@Terkhen>true, I was checking only properties 0D, 0E, 0F :)
09:31<@planetmaker>they do, Terkhen http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0Houses#Accepted_cargo_types_.281E.29
09:32<@Terkhen>yes, while looking at how to do subsidies without relying in towneffects, it made sense to me to make some kind of cargo statistics for towns
09:32<@Terkhen>ideally, the same ones that would be used for additional town variables later
09:33<@planetmaker>sure :-)
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes i'm not sure whether Ammler is just ignoring, or deliberately misunderstanding what i say... or whether i really think too complicated for other people to follow my thoughts
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09:53<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: it was additional not opposed :-)
09:54<Ammler>hehe, sorry if you got that wrong
09:55<Ammler>I am quite rarely on that forum, I just thought, it might help if I can confirm openttd is working as it should here
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10:27*JVassie is back
10:29<JVassie>sooo
10:29<JVassie>what feature of NML to master next? :p
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10:31<Hirundo>The latest addition is proper access of town registers
10:32<JVassie>Im working on trains, not town :p
10:32<JVassie>*towns
10:32<JVassie>far too advanced for me yet xD
10:33<Hirundo>Trains are AFAIK mostly feature complete, there won't be much further progress in that direction
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10:34<JVassie>Hirundo: I just started using NML yesterday
10:34<JVassie>:)
10:35<JVassie>What im hoping for are stations to be doen in NML
10:35<JVassie>so i can code the MSS
10:36<Hirundo>Stations are very tricky, that's the reason they aren't done yet
10:37<Hirundo>The station nfo spec is very powerful and allows you to do lots of things
10:37<Hirundo>NML implementation of that has to cover (almost) all the features while still being usable
10:38<@Terkhen>and less confusing :P
10:39*Hirundo ponders whether to look at stations or extended sprite layouts
10:40<@Yexo>extended sprite layouts mostly need implementation, that's relatively easy
10:40<@Yexo>stations would be very nice :)
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10:49<JVassie>Yexo: did you see my suggestion regardign stations?
10:50<@Yexo>I did read something in the mbss
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10:50<JVassie>its in openttd suggestiosn forum :)
10:51<@Yexo>ah, that one
10:51<@Yexo>not really possible
10:51<@Yexo>the spec is simply not designed for something like that
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10:52<JVassie>:(
10:54<@planetmaker>Hirundo: stations would be awesome :-)
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10:57<@planetmaker>hm, I hope with NML becoming more and more feature-complete that the many (new and old) but often uncharted areas of newgrf become more populated by newgrfs
10:58<@planetmaker>with town persistant storage the only immediately missing thing is airports
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>hm... my computer is somewhat warmer than usual
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>but nothing complicated should be running
10:58<@planetmaker>adn of course bridges and... docks and RV stations and...
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10:59<@Terkhen>docks have specs? :P
10:59<@Yexo>no, but it should be easy to extend the airport specs for docks
10:59<JVassie>oooh
10:59<@Yexo>that is, once the airport specs are finalized
11:00<JVassie>that'd be cool
11:00<@Terkhen>that would be awesome :)
11:00<@planetmaker>Terkhen: I'm just dreaming ;-)
11:00<@planetmaker>or... planning for OpenTTD 2.0 :-P
11:00<@Terkhen>planetmaker: you jumped from features missing in NML directly to daydreaming :P
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>can newgrfs trigger a news message?
11:01<JVassie>how about for openttd 1.2 we get a rewrite of the station specs? :D
11:01<@Terkhen>why should they be rewritten?
11:01<@planetmaker>I'm good at that, right, Terkhen ? :-P
11:01<JVassie>to allow the idea i suggested Terkhen :D
11:01<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: not directly. Just by the usual events
11:02<frosch123>industries can
11:02<frosch123>e.g. in the monthly callback
11:02<@planetmaker>arbitrary?
11:02<@Yexo>JVassie: it's not just the specs, those could be extended, the number of map bits used for that is more problematic
11:02<frosch123>but those messages are usually disabled :p
11:02<frosch123>planetmaker: yes
11:02<@planetmaker>interestink
11:02<@Terkhen>oh, I did not know that :)
11:02<frosch123>just, who enables industry news?
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: hmm... thought of something more generic
11:02<JVassie>map bits are needed for the station build gui?
11:02<@planetmaker>:-P
11:02<@Terkhen>nobody :P
11:03<frosch123>would town control require creation of news?
11:03<@planetmaker>new feature: a random spam message from every industry every month
11:03<@planetmaker>will be fun ;-)
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>i meant something descriptive without immediate gameplay effect, like "In A.D. 2101 - War was beginning"
11:04<frosch123>e.g. monthly or something like that?
11:04<@planetmaker>frosch123: would make sense. Like "this town now requires food to further grow"
11:04<JVassie>indeed
11:04<JVassie>would be a bit harsh otherwise
11:04<@Yexo>JVassie: not for the build gui, but to store that information afterwards
11:04<@planetmaker>or "this town now additionally requires steel"
11:04<@Terkhen>frosch123: maybe
11:04<JVassie>Yexo, you mean to actually place the tile on the map?
11:04<@Yexo>yes
11:05<JVassie>WTB more map bits
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>something not directly linked to any particular town/industry/vehicle/company
11:05<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: then you could only check date
11:05<@Terkhen>yes, it makes sense to have news messages in towns too
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: date would probably be enough
11:06<frosch123>sounds like NewScenario
11:06<Hirundo>hmm... extended sprite layouts might have made stations a lot easier
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but not quite that involved... NewScenario could use complete interactive gui elements, i wasn't thinking that far
11:06<@Terkhen>IMO stuff like that should go with scenario data, not in newgrfs
11:07<frosch123>yeah, scenarios sound more like something for squirrel
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>the particular thought i had was a grf with freight wagons, and every few decades you get a news message "speed limit for freight trains is now X km/h", and all existing freight trains get updated speed limits (immediately, or after visiting depot, or somesuch)
11:09<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: but that "breaks" as soon as you use multiple train newgrfs
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: so what? that's the user's fault :p
11:09<@peter1138>https://github.com/MrMEEE/bumblebee/commit/a047be85247755cdbe0acce6#diff-1
11:10<@Yexo>nice one
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>"rm -rf /usr" sounds painful :p
11:12<@planetmaker>scenarios (load and play normally) or game control (load and pre-programmed events)?
11:12<@Terkhen>:O
11:12<@Terkhen>planetmaker: both
11:12<@Terkhen>"game control" could be bundled with scenarios using the new format
11:13<@planetmaker>outch, what a fix, peter1138 :-)
11:15<@planetmaker>yes... though I'd like actually game control being able to be separate from a specific map
11:15<@Terkhen>yes, I agree
11:15<@planetmaker>though there are definitely valid use cases to write one which fits a particular map (only)
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>certain parts of "game control", like an advanced subsidy system, may be independent from actual maps
11:16<@planetmaker>I still think that for game control the admin port could be extended or generalized... but maybe that's not the way... as difficult in SP
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. like a question window "do you accept this subsidy", and then getting a penalty if you didn't actually set up that route
11:17<JVassie>evil :D
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>but that completely was not the acutal question
11:18<@planetmaker>JVassie: that happens if you accept vehicles for testing but don't build them. You won't get new such offers for a few years
11:18<JVassie>oooh ok
11:19<@planetmaker>which is not actually a penalty...
11:19<@planetmaker>but well :-)
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>it is, if you play with breakdowns off
11:19<@planetmaker>why then?
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>you get the engine a year later?
11:21<@planetmaker>you get it at the same time ohter players get it
11:21<@Terkhen>what else could be part of an advanced subsidy system?
11:21<@planetmaker>but depends really on 'penalty' vs. 'advantage'
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>"lack of advantage" is a penalty
11:21<@planetmaker>testing IMHO is an advantage over all others. Not having it is not a penalty. But details
11:22<@planetmaker>Nah, penalty is below normal ;-)
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>if you worked hard for an advantage, not getting that advantage is a penalty
11:22<@planetmaker>which you didn't in the testing vehicle case
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you did, you have the highest score
11:24<@planetmaker>happens without much effort :-P
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>different problem :p
11:25<@planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=952196#p952196 <-- your crystal ball, Eddi|zuHause , it's still working
11:25<frosch123>planetmaker: your movement of cb 148 results in more work :p
11:25<@planetmaker>frosch123: in what way?
11:26<frosch123>it is one of the "animation" callbacks
11:26<frosch123>which share return values
11:26<frosch123>and especially the last sentence of the cb 148 description applies to multiple callbacks
11:26<frosch123>though of course you can say, that is wrong in itself
11:27<@Terkhen>we should group callbacks in different pages :)
11:27<frosch123>grfspecs are at least as tricky as nfo :p
11:29<@planetmaker>frosch123: I think we just change "above" to the actual CB numbers
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>yep, split the whole page apart into individual groups, and make "Callbacks" a category
11:29<@planetmaker>I linked anyway every instance of a callback mentioned to the CB description today
11:29<frosch123>but the sentence is not mentioned at the other callbacks
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11:29<@planetmaker>yes. It should probably
11:30<@planetmaker>animation control as sound control... how funky
11:30<@planetmaker>I never noticed until now
11:31<@planetmaker>hm... callbacks by feature (group)?
11:32<@Terkhen>IMO yes, and a different one for generic callbacks
11:32<frosch123>"feature" as in "trains, stations, industries" is not useful
11:32<frosch123>"feature" as in "animation" might work
11:33<frosch123>or "construction checks/autoslope/custom foundations/
11:34<frosch123>a table of contents for each feature might make sense though
11:35<@planetmaker>frosch123: IMHO feature like 'vehicles', 'stations', 'industries' is what I usually need
11:35<frosch123>well, but a lot of callbacks are the same for various features
11:35<@planetmaker>and having them on one page makes sense.
11:36<@planetmaker>yes, indeed they are
11:36<frosch123>you do not want to duplicate the descriptions
11:36<@planetmaker>definitely not
11:36<frosch123>so, a table of content for each feature, which links to pages grouped by function
11:37<frosch123>callbacks about animations would need some general shared explanation of animations as well
11:37<frosch123>or the slope/foundation callbacks could get an explanation of slopes etc
11:38<@planetmaker>I'm not sure it needs splitting actually
11:38<@planetmaker>a separate list for each feature might still make sense, though
11:39<@Terkhen>callbacks shared between different features get their own page, callback pages for each feature have a link to the other pages if needed
11:40<frosch123>planetmaker: yeah, i guess for the start it does not necessarily need splitting
11:40<frosch123>only if we add some detailed description for a group of callbacks
11:41<@planetmaker>hm... we could transclude the callbacks into the feature pages for those callbacks shared
11:41<@planetmaker>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Transclusion
11:41<frosch123>That only obfuscates that they are the same
11:41<@planetmaker>then each CB gets its own page. And feature pages just (trans/in)clude them
11:42<frosch123>(simliar as to shared action 7 and varaction2 variables)
11:42<frosch123>also you would still have exceptions for certain features
11:42<@planetmaker>hm?
11:43<@planetmaker>if I have page CallbacksVehicles: #include cb15, cb36, cb14, ...
11:43<frosch123>when a callback applies to multiple features, but there are sentences like "for stations this is mirrored, for houses not"
11:43<@planetmaker>that's ok, I think
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i broke something...
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>Program received signal SIGFPE, Arithmetic exception.
11:44<@planetmaker>Or you add the difference to the individual feature page
11:44<frosch123>that would make it worse
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>src/tgp.cpp:732 *h = (height_t)(((int)h_max_new) * (*h - h_water_level) / (h_max - h_water_level)) + I2H(1);
11:45<frosch123>i consider "making obvious what is shared by features" very important
11:45<frosch123>assume you already learned to code stations
11:45<@planetmaker>Ok. Then those shared CBs can get a leading line which states that it's shared?
11:45<frosch123>now you want to do industries, do you really want to check whether there is some sentence more from what you know?
11:46<frosch123>planetmaker: what's so bad with just linking?
11:46<@planetmaker>Like "This callback is shared between vehicles, ..."
11:46<frosch123>very transparent
11:47<@planetmaker>frosch123: when I write a NewGRF, I like to have the applicable CBs and their way how they work on one page as now. Not click, click, click for each switch block.
11:47<@planetmaker>Like a quick overview over this one feature
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>hm... this might be an actual bug in tgp.cpp: if the map happens to turn out completely flat, determining the water level fails
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11:51<frosch123>[17:46] <planetmaker> Like "This callback is shared between vehicles, ..." <- could that be done in some automated way, or only via manual template insertion?
11:52<@planetmaker>frosch123: I'd add that as the first sentence to that CB's description
11:52<@planetmaker>which I'd do manually... the applicable features are given by the numbers, aren't they?
11:53<@planetmaker>Maybe it could be done somewhat automatically... the CB description gives all numbers.
11:54<frosch123>some callbacks share the number for different features
11:54<frosch123>e.g. the ai callback
11:54<frosch123>and the sound callback 33
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11:57<@planetmaker>right... interesting, I did not know that :-)
11:57<@planetmaker>But... I'd add that there, too. And currently that's not clear either
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12:46<@Terkhen>after digging in the subsidy code it makes sense to me to have stats of cargo acceptance inside a town for deciding subsidies
12:46<@Terkhen>what exactly is "inside a town" is up to debate :)
12:46<@Terkhen>maybe only some town zones
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12:48<@planetmaker>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/User:Planetmaker <-- frosch123 with inclusion it could look like that.
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13:03<frosch123>so, every callback gets its own page, which are then put together on different pages
13:04<frosch123>hmm, maybe callbacks should generally have some summary information at the top
13:05<frosch123>like, features it applies to, format of var 10, 18 and result
13:05<@Terkhen>yes, a common format would be nice
13:06<frosch123>and something like "called from purchase list" resp. "called for actual vehicle"
13:07<@Terkhen>yes :)
13:07<@planetmaker>hm, indeed, that'd be helpful
13:07<@planetmaker>and yes, I'd then give each CB its own page
13:07<@planetmaker>s/'d/'ll/ :-P
13:08<@planetmaker>Hm... Features as list and ... the latter as list as well? or rather both as table?
13:08<@Terkhen>can that be scripted somehow? there are a lot of callbacks
13:08<@planetmaker>with 'x' in the appropriate place? Hm... that might be nice
13:09<@planetmaker>how does our version template in the OpenTTD wiki work...
13:09*planetmaker looks
13:09<@planetmaker>Terkhen: scripting that might be more lengthy than just doing it
13:09<@Terkhen>ok :P
13:10<frosch123>planetmaker: for var10, var18 i only mean a short format, like "syxx", where the rest is described later
13:11<@planetmaker>sorry, in which respect, frosch123 ?
13:12<frosch123>you were talking about the layout for the summary
13:12<@planetmaker>ah. What I linked is basically a 1:1 copy of how the CBs are described now. Just included from their separate page.
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13:21<frosch123>planetmaker: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callback:_Set_refitted_capacity <- i mean something like that
13:22<frosch123>though maybe with different layout (from template), and better keywords in first column
13:22<@planetmaker>he... looks nice, though. I'd try to make the feature thing a tick list (table in table)
13:23<frosch123>for callback with different ids for different vehicles, the first row would look like "houses (1B), industy tiles (25), .."
13:24<frosch123>planetmaker: can you make an example of that
13:24<frosch123>i don't think i know what you mean :)
13:24<@planetmaker>trying to :-)
13:25<@planetmaker>I first need to figure out the syntax ;-)
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13:30<Eddi|zuHause>hm... so "run in dosbox" counts as "port" these days?
13:31<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: I'd say "runs in dosbox" might count as "port"
13:32<Rubidium>but luckily I've got no clue what you're talking about
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=55310
13:33<@planetmaker>frosch123: check that page now
13:33<@Terkhen>I don't know how is he expecting to run dosbox, IIRC they removed linux support from ps3
13:34<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: that sounds like loads of stupidity to me
13:34<Rubidium>as *if* dosbox works, then OpenTTD can be compiled natively as well
13:35<frosch123>planetmaker: that will become very long, esp since there are callbacks which only work for some vehicle types
13:35<@Terkhen>heh :P
13:35<frosch123>a column for every potential feature is not viable
13:35<@planetmaker>then a row
13:35<frosch123>that is also very long
13:35<frosch123>lots of rows with only -
13:36<frosch123>a table is only of use if most cells are filled
13:36<@planetmaker>well, ok, then your suggestion it is
13:37<frosch123>any better idea for the texts in the first column?
13:37<frosch123>aslo, should it be this kind of greyish table with lines? or rathe some different style?
13:37<frosch123>or, just create a template and bother later?
13:40<@planetmaker>use of a template seems best to me
13:40<@planetmaker>or at least a separate table class
13:41<frosch123>so, how to procede? first split cbs to individual pages, or first add those tables?
13:42<frosch123>(i would still keep the page of all callbacks for now, though with those includes)
13:43<@Belugas>lovely weather :) outside for lunch, a co-worker and i, both with our cameras. She's taking pictures of buildings, i shoot girls :) lovely, really!
13:44<@planetmaker>frosch123: I think adding those tables only makes sense after a split
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13:44<@planetmaker>and yes, we keep the all-CB page till the split is 100% done, of course
13:45<frosch123>i mean also keep that page afterwards, i.e. a page to include all callbacks
13:46<@planetmaker>When all is done, I don't think it's needed. The category page suffices then as it also lists all
13:46<@planetmaker>I started with [[Category:Callbacks]]
13:47<@planetmaker>That summary page could then still contain the text which now is not individual to the single CBs
13:47<@planetmaker>thus just moving that to the special category page
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13:47<frosch123>then you could do feature-specific callbacks with categories as well :p
13:48<@planetmaker>Yes, one could
13:48<frosch123>i think there is also some use for having all callbacks on one page
13:48<@planetmaker>you mean inlined?
13:48<@planetmaker>like now?
13:48<@planetmaker>didn't you before suggest a link-list only?
13:49<frosch123>yes, successively split all callbacks from the page to individual pages, and put an inline on the page it was before
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13:52<@planetmaker>ok
13:54<@planetmaker>so... template or table?
13:57<frosch123>i am not sure whether the rows would be the same for everyone
13:58<frosch123>or whether some might need an additional row
13:58<frosch123>yeah, for example for return values in 100+ registers
13:58<frosch123>can templates have optional arguments?
13:58<@planetmaker>they can have default values
13:58<@Yexo>also optional ones
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14:00<frosch123>or maybe a template for the first columns of that table, while also allowing custom rows?
14:00<frosch123>some cb might have "var 100 this", "var 100 that". some other callback might have "var 100-105: text stack"
14:00<andythenorth>hola
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14:01<frosch123>hola compañero
14:01<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
14:01*andythenorth baby -> bath
14:02<frosch123>again?
14:02<frosch123>or is "bath" only a term for general service?
14:02<@Yexo>the previous time andy said that was yesterday, right?
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>my log says last sunday
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14:04<@planetmaker>possibly we should try it with a template, frosch123
14:04<@planetmaker>we'll get the return values *somehow* into it ;-)
14:05<frosch123>we should pick some example callbacks to try first :)
14:05<frosch123>can the splitting be done by some bot?
14:06<@planetmaker>in principle yes.
14:06<frosch123>which takes a list of a link to the current section and a title for the new page?
14:06<@Yexo>split by section, generate page title from section title?
14:06<@planetmaker>what I'd do is run it on the current callback page and ...^
14:07<@planetmaker>We should possibly sanetize section names then
14:07<frosch123>should the title contain the callback id, or rather not?
14:07<@planetmaker>having callback in it doesn't make sense
14:07<frosch123>(e.g. to not have to change it when adding a feature)
14:07<@planetmaker>the callback ids... I'd leave out for that reason
14:07<frosch123>fine for me
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14:29<Nite_Owl>No compiled nightlies since the 6th ?? Compile farm problems ??
14:29<@Alberth>we build up the tension
14:30<@Alberth>seriously, work was being done on the CF, so that would be a reason. I don't know its state atm.
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14:31<Rubidium>Nite_Owl: there's a nightly of the 11th, 9th, 8th and 7th as well
14:32<@Yexo>just not distributed?
14:32<Rubidium>but we migrated to another hoster and due to some technical reasons the old CF didn't quite survive
14:33<Nite_Owl>Oops - I transposed a number - no nightlies since the 11th...
14:33<Rubidium>(it works somewhat, but in about 30% of the binary build runs it hangs, which means it'll reliably hang each build and thus it was stopped
14:34<@planetmaker>frosch123: if you have a good template for me to include right from the start, I could add that during page creation right away ;-)
14:34<Rubidium>and setting one up from scratch takes a lot of time
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14:34<frosch123>planetmaker: i would need filling in manually anyway
14:34<frosch123>*it
14:34<Nite_Owl>Not a problem short term. I was more curious then anything else.
14:35<frosch123>but i will try some template stuff later on
14:38<Nite_Owl>Thank you for the confirmation. I will wait patiently for a return to normal operations.
14:39<@Terkhen>what stats regarding cargo acceptance should be stored in the town? subsidies only need "at least a unit was accepted last month", but it would make sense to store everything town control will need at once
14:40<frosch123>why would subsidies check for an amount being accepted?
14:40<@Terkhen>to know if the town can be a destination for certain cargos
14:40<frosch123>shouldn't they check the acceptance in a certain area around the town sign?
14:40<@Terkhen>although... I might be mixing stuff here
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14:41<@Terkhen>towns should not be marked as destinations if a industry accepts the cargo, so it might be better to not mix both things
14:41*andythenorth bath.done
14:41<frosch123>there is a difference whether the town actually got delivered stuff, or whether it would only accept it
14:41<@Terkhen>s/destinations/possible destinations/
14:41<andythenorth>does bath have a callback on completion, or does it just end?
14:41<andythenorth>anyway
14:41<andythenorth>did towns get solved yet? :P
14:41<@Terkhen>hmm... true, sorry, I was mixing stuff :P
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14:42<@Terkhen>andythenorth: prerrequisite, fix subsidies
14:42<andythenorth>oh those things
14:42<andythenorth>can of worms there
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>bath() terminates if either the water is empty or too cold
14:42<@Terkhen>I remember some FIRS problem regarding subsidies, right?
14:43<andythenorth>it should call another function in both cases
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>a remote procedure call: "MAAAAAMAAAAAA"
14:43<@Terkhen>what subsidies would need is a "is this cargo accepted by any house in the town" stat
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: like AIList?
14:44<@Terkhen>it is probably not worth the effort to update said variable when houses are built/demolished, as for demolished it would need to loop through all houses anyways
14:44<@Terkhen>so... better to not use a variable and loop through all houses monthly instead
14:45<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: sorry, I don't know how that relates to subsidies
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: how AIs evaluate tiles whether they accept a certain cargo if they place a station here
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>so you pick a tilearea that covers the town, and then run the valuator for your cargo
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>if the resulting tile list is empty, you don't have an appropriate area that accepts 8/8 of the cargo
14:47<frosch123>Terkhen: afaik there is some min distance to the town center for a subsidy being rewarded
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: afaik that is solved
14:48<frosch123>so, i guess it should scan the houses only in that area
14:48<andythenorth>how much scope is there here?
14:48<andythenorth>subsidies can only be patched a bit? or subisdies can be rethought entirely
14:48<@Terkhen>hmm... the fastest solution would probably be loop through all houses and ignore houses in certain town zones
14:49<andythenorth>I may be out the loop here, and I haven't read code....
14:49<andythenorth>but...
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: no single house will accept goods, so you need at least 3 such houses to offer a goods subsidy
14:49<frosch123>what about stupid things like the ttrs gas station accepting 6/8?
14:49<andythenorth>do we know how towns manage their growth cargos yet?
14:50<frosch123>there could be gas stations in the town, but nowhere enough for acceptance
14:50<frosch123>the same might happen for goods
14:50<@Terkhen>meh, true, checking houses is not an option
14:50<andythenorth>it would seem
14:50<@Terkhen>but checking tileareas for all towns monthly seems... costly
14:50<andythenorth>the issue of 'acceptance for subsidy' and 'are the cargos for growth accepted in this town' seem to be same to me
14:50<frosch123>so, maybe pick some random tile near the center, and then check if a roadstop at that point would accept the cargo?
14:50<andythenorth>the key issue is that we can't rely on houses for acceptance
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: pick a town first and then only run the evaluation for that town
14:51<@Terkhen>andythenorth: right now the only plan is to remove the "towneffect" effect on subsidies, and replace it by something more generic
14:52<@Terkhen>why can't we rely on houses for acceptance?
14:52<@Terkhen>and yes, choosing a town first makes a lot of sense :P
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: water tower is not a house
14:52<andythenorth>bank is not a house
14:52<@Terkhen>I know :)
14:52<andythenorth>even before we talk about ECS, PBI, FIRS, TAI, OpenGFX+
14:52<andythenorth>why can't house/industry tiles update a cache on the town?
14:52<andythenorth>of accepted cargos
14:53<@Terkhen>why should water subsidies have a destination of "town"?
14:53<+michi_cc>frosch123: Maybe a tiny bit overkill :) for subsidies, but http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/yacd.git/commitdiff/d2d24d29b44189e32a6e27c978cf5d36cd224c6e
14:53<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: water subsidies also go to industries nowadays
14:54<andythenorth>if industries are to be dealt with (they should be), what about cbs 2B and 3D?
14:54<@Terkhen>michi_cc: thanks, I'll check it :)
14:54<frosch123>looks like it could be used, so if it is also of use for other stuff :)
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i'm particularly worried about cargos that get accepted by both houses and industries
14:55<George>If it is ok for houses to accept food and goods as cargoes, which affects town growth, why shouldn't water, petrol act the same?
14:56<George>and the next step is making bank houses ;)
14:56<@Terkhen>George: subsidies are being reworked as part of a plan of creating town control
14:56<George>Terkhen: who should accept goods and food?
14:57<+michi_cc>Terkhen: That patch is only collecting houses acceptance though, as YACD handles industries separately, but including industries wouldn't be hard.
14:57<andythenorth>the patch can account for cbs 2B and 3D?
14:57*Terkhen can't answer so much questions at once :P
14:58<@Terkhen>michi_cc: I'll check the code thoroughly later, but it looks good :)
14:58<@planetmaker>frosch123: pages created
14:59<@Terkhen>George: in what sense? both industries and houses can accept them
14:59<@Terkhen>but I have no idea about which one should accept it
14:59<@Terkhen>depends on the newgrf developer I guess
14:59<@planetmaker>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/index.php?title=Category:Callbacks&action=edit&redlink=1
14:59<@Terkhen>andythenorth: account in which regard? if a industry stops accepting something the subsidy dies?
15:00-!-sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:00<George>I'm leading to guideline to make banks, petrol stations, water towers to be houses :)
15:00<@Terkhen>regarding subsidies, the new scheme should be able to detect those houses and create subsidies with "town" as destination accordingly
15:01<frosch123>planetmaker: is there also an automatic way to replace the stuff on the old page?
15:01<George>According to subsidies, I think cargoes like food, goods, water should be to towns, not industries
15:01<frosch123>i.e. to kill the current duplication
15:01<@planetmaker>I guess with a bit offline c&p yes
15:02<andythenorth>Terkhen: I was looking ahead to growth cargos - if a town needs cargo A, but that isn't accepted...
15:02<andythenorth>meh, this is thorny
15:02<@Terkhen>George: the plan is to rework subsidies so they don't depend on the cargo towneffect anymore; that way you can have subsidies with "town" as destination using cargos that are not passengers, mail, food, goods or valuables
15:03<@Terkhen>but that also means that you can have subsidies with "industry" as destination for passengers, mail, food, goods and valuables
15:03<George>Terkhen: Sounds ok
15:04<@Terkhen>ok :)
15:04<@Terkhen>andythenorth: towns could get a "cargo is accepted" variable
15:05<@Terkhen>I don't know if house/industry newgrfs could be able to use that information to prioritize giving those towns acceptance, though
15:05<andythenorth>hmm
15:05<andythenorth>possibly cb28 would be able to use it by accessing parent town of the tile
15:06<andythenorth>which might be interesting
15:06<andythenorth>but if industry + town grfs are properly decoupled, I don't know if it's actually useful irl
15:06<@Terkhen>time for dinner, bbl :)
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>dinner for one
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>hm... anyone knows useful virtual machines on windows?
15:12<@planetmaker>done, frosch123
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>$colleague has a computer that he wants to mirror as a virtual machine for backup/redundancy purposes
15:12<Sacro>https://github.com/MrMEEE/bumblebee/commit/a047be85247755cdbe0acce6
15:12<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: VMWare?
15:12<Sacro>as bugs go...
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: ooooold
15:13*frosch123 saw once a guy in a train, botting vista, then starting a xp vm and then starting eclipse in there
15:13<frosch123>planetmaker: \o/
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: how free is that nowadays?
15:14<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: no idea... I didn't boot a windows machine in months
15:14<frosch123>no longer warnings like "this page is 70kB and might be screwed up by some 16bit browsers"
15:14<@planetmaker>:-P
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>what the hell is a 16bit browser? :p
15:15<frosch123>one that cannot handle editareas with more than 32kB content
15:15<@planetmaker>he
15:15<frosch123>i would guess on stuff based on win 3.11 notepad
15:16<@planetmaker>sounds pretty pre-historic, though
15:16<frosch123>planetmaker: all links are broken?
15:17*orudge gives Eddi|zuHause a copy of Internet Explorer 5.0 for Windows 3.1
15:17<frosch123>hmm, no, the bot added some links were none were before
15:17<@planetmaker>which all linksß
15:18<@planetmaker>?
15:18<frosch123>take a look at the table of the old callback page
15:18<frosch123>some entries are now links, some are not
15:18<@orudge>Sacro: that is quite impressive
15:18<@planetmaker>hm, to the individual ones. Seems like. yes
15:19<frosch123>well, there were no links before
15:19<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: 16 bit browsers were much fun for web designers :P
15:19<frosch123>just a surprise :)
15:19<andythenorth>oh things have changed
15:19<andythenorth>I have been doing this too long clearly :P
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>obviously :p
15:19<@planetmaker>hm... some don't work exactly like intended anymore
15:20<@planetmaker>but all at least end up in the callback overview page
15:20<@planetmaker>thus nothing really broken
15:20<frosch123>[21:17] * orudge gives Eddi|zuHause a copy of Internet Explorer 5.0 for Windows 3.1 <- there was an internet explorer for win 3.1 ?
15:20<@orudge>Yes
15:20<@planetmaker>yup
15:20<@orudge>as I say, up to IE5
15:20<@orudge>also, you could get a (limited) version of Outlook 97 for Win 3.1
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>it was not bundled back then
15:20<@planetmaker>the funniest IE was still the one which ran un SGI ;-)
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>and i didn't have internet before 2001
15:20<@orudge>planetmaker: yep, effectively used a Wine-type technology
15:21<@orudge>although not Wine itself
15:21<frosch123>i had win32s for 3.11
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>yep, that one i remember
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>it came with freecell
15:21<frosch123>it could run freecell or so :p
15:22<@orudge>you could run quite a few applications with it if you were careful
15:22*orudge had much fun with Win32s, back in the day
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>it wasn't really perfect
15:27*andythenorth halloumi
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>i don't like cheese
15:29<@Alberth>hidehi
15:30-!-sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd
15:31*andythenorth likes commits
15:31<andythenorth>and cheese
15:38-!-core [5169d783@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
15:38<core>hello
15:38<@Terkhen>michi_cc: are AddAcceptedCargo_Town and AddProducedCargo_Town defined elsewhere?
15:38<@Terkhen>hi core
15:38<core>i need help with autopilot
15:39<core>:)
15:39<@Terkhen>oh, they are existing functions :)
15:39<core>i cannot get it working
15:39<@Terkhen>michi_cc: this code is perfect for subsidies too :)
15:40<core>saying "cannot find package expect" even though I have installed it
15:43<core>anyone? :)
15:43<@Terkhen>core: sorry but I have never set up ap+
15:43<@Terkhen>you willl have to wait until someone who knows reads this
15:43<+michi_cc>Terkhen: Just note that at least the YACD code is storing the acceptance per 4x4 tiles square, which might or might not be the best size for subsidies. Additionally, acceptance for each square is actually the combined acceptance of the current square and all surrounding squares, i.e. a 12x12 tile area (which I chose because even the smallest bus stop always covers at least some part of all 9 squares.)
15:44<@Terkhen>I was wondering about the 4x4 size, yes
15:44<core>ok
15:44<core>thanks anyway :)
15:44<@Terkhen>ideally, it should store if a station with the smallest acceptance possible could accept the cargo in some point of that town
15:45<@Alberth>core: random suggestion, can you run expect from the command line?
15:45<core>hmm
15:45<core>yes
15:45<core>1.1
15:46<@Alberth>so the install seems to work
15:47<core> What was the IP again? I can't see it from OpenTTD when I am typing it.
15:47-!-k^^ [~k^^@users192.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep]
15:47<core>ops sorry wrong chat
15:47<@Terkhen>the ideal thing would be checking 7x7 areas, and storing the acceptance for each tile
15:48<@Terkhen>but maybe that's too much information and it can work well with less
15:48<core> it says when running autopilot.tcl: can't find package Expect | while executing | "package require Expect" | (file ./autopilot.tcl" line 45)
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15:49<+michi_cc>Terkhen: My reasoning was that with a too small search area some towns might accept a cargo at no point, even if a player could easily build a station with bigger catchment, which would be a serious growth hindrance for small towns with YACD.
15:50-!-ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:50<@Terkhen>that makes sense... even without distant join stations a player should be able to build two or three adjacent road stops without many problems
15:52-!-ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has joined #openttd
15:52<@Terkhen>I think that your reasoning is adequate for subsidies too; if it is quite possible that the player can deliver cargo to the town, the game should be able to award subsidies for that cargo in that town too
15:52-!-zodttd [~me@user-0c90n0l.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #openttd
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15:56<+michi_cc>Most important point: It works™ :) I.e. I tested some values for the least positive and negative mismatches and those were best.
15:59<frosch123>planetmaker: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callback:_Set_refitted_capacity http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callback:_Build_articulated_engines http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callback:_Select_sprite_layout <- these pages can be deleted, right?
15:59<frosch123>the bot created slight different named ones
15:59<@planetmaker>for some pages: yes
15:59<@Terkhen>michi_cc: that's a good point too :)
16:00<@planetmaker>those indeed... though I wonder about the refitted capacity
16:00<@Terkhen>and also that (IIRC) no one has noticed an issue with this in YACD
16:00<andythenorth>Terkhen: town control will provide control over subsidies?
16:00<frosch123>you mean the tables?
16:00<@Terkhen>andythenorth: nothing is planned in that regard... how would it work?
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>thought: remove "<industry A> to <industry B>" subsidies completely, always do "from <any house/industry in town X> to <any house/industry in town Y>" subsidies
16:02<@planetmaker>I wonder though whether it was a good idea to add "Callback" to the page names
16:03<andythenorth>Terkhen: like industry production cb
16:03<andythenorth>monthly / random
16:03<frosch123>i think it was a good idea
16:03<frosch123>or did you mean using a namespace instead?
16:03<andythenorth>game tries to award a subsidy, newgrf allows / disallows
16:04<@planetmaker>well, we also have categories for that
16:04<frosch123>but a page named only "wagon length" would not have been good
16:04<@planetmaker>which I added
16:04<@planetmaker>Yes, that's why I did that. Ok :-)
16:04<@planetmaker>I just wasn't sure whether it's a good idea
16:04<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: hmm... do you mean "any industry of type X" or "any industry accepting/producing cargo Y"?
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16:06<@Terkhen>andythenorth: why monthly/random? it would make more sense to evaluate the callback for the industry/town once that the game decides on a possible source/destination
16:07<frosch123>planetmaker: what are you doing?
16:07<@planetmaker>I deleted two pages which are duplicate as you mentioned
16:07<@planetmaker>I meant to do that, but was distracted
16:07<frosch123>no, you picked a wrong one :p
16:08<@planetmaker>or rather the manually created ones
16:08<andythenorth>Terkhen: agreed - but it might be interesting for town control to be able to specify that there should be subsidies for cargo x/y/z
16:08<@planetmaker>uhm.. I did?
16:08<@planetmaker>The automatic created ones are right ;-)
16:08<frosch123>you deleted "station availability" instead of "select sprite layout"
16:09<@planetmaker>drat. yes :S
16:09<@Terkhen>andythenorth: but towns cannot always control both source and destination, in most cases they will only be able to control one of them
16:10<andythenorth>drat is an underused word
16:10<frosch123>yeah, there is a restore function
16:10-!-einKarl [~einKarl@188-194-96-27-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:10<andythenorth>Terkhen: source / destination cargo? or source / destination point on map?
16:10<@Terkhen>points
16:10<andythenorth>forget that, that's the business of YACD-alike, or player
16:11<andythenorth>town should be able to specify subsidised cargo only
16:11<andythenorth>mimicks supply / demand in interesting way
16:11<andythenorth>hmm
16:11*andythenorth ponders towns adjusting cargo payment rate
16:11<andythenorth>instead of this silly subsidy business
16:11*andythenorth never uses subsidies
16:11<@planetmaker>thanks frosch123. fixed
16:12<@Terkhen>andythenorth: but that's what are supposed to subsidies do, they adjust payment
16:12<@Terkhen>and yes, towns making "suggestions" for subsidies makes sense
16:12<@Terkhen>they could be checked first and if not, choose a random one
16:13<andythenorth>subsidies are a partial implementation of spot prices for delivery
16:13<@Terkhen>s/choose a random one/use the current behavior/
16:13<andythenorth>why not have actual spot prices?
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16:14<@Terkhen>if I have understood what spot prices correctly, those should probably be global instead of local
16:14<andythenorth>probably
16:14<andythenorth>local to towns isn't quite right
16:14<andythenorth>it would need to be per tile, or per 4x4 tile block or such
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16:14<andythenorth>but there might be no storage for that
16:14<andythenorth>whereas towns have storage
16:15<andythenorth>and it's not too implausible for a player that there is a price per town
16:16<@Terkhen>so you need to display in each town how all cargos are paid
16:16<@Terkhen>and rates can change unexpectedly and bring down a line that was working fine previously
16:16<andythenorth>yep
16:16<andythenorth>doesn't work for that kind of play
16:17*andythenorth does some thinking
16:18<@Terkhen>the "towns suggest subsidies" idea is not incompatible with the current planned implementation for subsidies, it would only need changes on top of that
16:18<@Terkhen>so it does not need any special planning while fixing subsidies IMO
16:18<andythenorth>fix subsidies by deleting them ;)
16:18<@Terkhen>also, I don't think that cargo cost belongs to towns
16:19<andythenorth>no
16:19*andythenorth agrees
16:19<@Terkhen>what's wrong with subsidies? I like them :P
16:19<andythenorth>nothing is wrong with them
16:19<andythenorth>it's just one more thing to think about
16:19<andythenorth>when coding
16:19<andythenorth>not for me though :)
16:19*andythenorth does ponder
16:20<andythenorth>maybe it's ok to break players' routes
16:20<andythenorth>maybe we should all play smaller maps, with daylength patch, and more micro-management
16:20<andythenorth>maybe
16:20<SpComb>define anti-subsidies, penalties for transporting between specific industries!
16:20<SpComb>keep the player on their toes
16:22<andythenorth>that's the kind of thinking we need :)
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16:24<@Terkhen>you can already do that via newgrf
16:25<@Terkhen>if the player is delivering too much cargo from an industry, reduce production to 50
16:27<andythenorth>can't penalise a specific route though :D
16:27<andythenorth>maybe there should be more evil in the game
16:27*andythenorth thinks that FIRS has gone too vanilla
16:27<andythenorth>the stuff like closing industry types at certain dates has been removed
16:28<@Terkhen>what kind of "evil"?
16:28<andythenorth>not sure
16:28<andythenorth>pikka is better at evil than me
16:28-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
16:29<andythenorth>I might revisit idea of industry types closing though
16:29<@Terkhen>I didn't find PBI evil, it just has a game mechanic that some players might not like
16:30<SpComb>can't transport all my coal to one steel mill :(
16:30<@Terkhen>I don't think that a industry that is being supplied regularly should close, that means that it is a "successful" industry
16:31<andythenorth>true
16:33<@Terkhen>thinking on YACD; if the industry had a property or callback that determined how desirable it is as a destination, you could model demand decreases over time
16:34<@Terkhen>I'm not sure if it is a good idea to mix newgrf specs and YACD, though :)
16:34<andythenorth>probably better to leave YACD do the YACD bit
16:35<@Terkhen>yes
16:35<andythenorth>the only thing I thought of as newgrf-needed so far is something to specify 'delivery' sizes for cargos
16:38<core>where is the option to disable news
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16:39<@Terkhen>core: check the second menu starting from the end -> Message settings
16:42-!-Amis_ [~Amis@5400EBD1.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:43<core>advanced options?
16:44<@planetmaker>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callback:_Visual_effect_and_wagon_power#Visual_effect_and_wagon_power_.2810.29 <-- frosch123, a template
16:44<@planetmaker>I think it'll do for now. But feel free to extend.
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16:44<@Terkhen>core: http://wiki.openttd.org/Message_settings
16:44<@Terkhen>looks quite outdated though
16:45<@planetmaker>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/index.php?title=Template:CB <-- template @ frosch123
16:45<@planetmaker>and now... good night :-)
16:45<@Terkhen>good night planetmaker
16:45<andythenorth>bye planetmaker
16:45*andythenorth does snow
16:46<andythenorth>it is pretty
16:46<core>thank you Terkhen
16:46*Terkhen codes boring stuff
16:46<@Terkhen>you are welcome core :)
16:47-!-perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org]
16:48*andythenorth has coded much boring stuff in life
16:48<frosch123>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Template:Callback <- planetmaker: we work well together
16:49*andythenorth wonders what recent FIRS snow looks like in opengfx
16:49<andythenorth>probably not great :P
16:50*andythenorth checks
16:50<andythenorth>not great
16:51<@Terkhen>that's a nice format for callbacks :)
16:52*andythenorth declines to draw all FIRS snowy-ground sprites twice :P
16:53<andythenorth>it will just look wrong with opengfx :|
16:53<@planetmaker>that's just wrong then...
16:53<@Terkhen>andythenorth: do you have a screenshot of how the new industries look with opengfx at hand? I always play with opengfx and I have not noticed much ugliness
16:54<@planetmaker>anyway... I was sleeping ;-)
16:54<@Terkhen>good night**2 planetmaker :)
16:54<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/snow_go.png
16:55<@Terkhen>hmm... is noticeable in the ground, yes
16:55<@Terkhen>but for stuff like roofs it shouldn't matter that much
16:55<andythenorth>it would be solvable with advanced layouts
16:56<andythenorth>but as I never use opengfx it's unlikely I'll be annoyed enough to bother fixing it
16:56<@Terkhen>yes, I was wondering if it would be possible to change ground tiles easily
16:56<@planetmaker>just reference the ground tiles instead of re-drawing them
16:57<andythenorth>not possible with the current template structure
16:57<andythenorth>but would be trivial with advanced sprite layouts
16:57<andythenorth>I tried to code one yesterday, but then couldn't compile
16:57<@Terkhen>something to fix later then :P
16:58<andythenorth>it would be useful if the game had magic for action 2 sprite layouts
16:58<andythenorth>so author could just use a bit that said 'give me correct ground tile here'
16:58<andythenorth>for slope + terrain
16:58<andythenorth>even with advanced layout, it will have to be computed by newgrf
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16:59<andythenorth>open gfx lighthouse is better than default one, apart from being a bit noisy
17:00<andythenorth>the default one is oversized and ugly
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17:01<@Terkhen>I have not played with default graphics for years :P
17:02<@Terkhen>I don't even remember the lighthouse
17:02<@Terkhen>just checked, it is indeed huge
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17:09<andythenorth>I had considered to include lighthouses as industries
17:09<andythenorth>accept PAX, Food. Supply PAX
17:10<andythenorth>I discounted the idea as silly
17:10<frosch123>does firs have WDPR wood products?
17:11<andythenorth>that is a painful question :P
17:11<andythenorth>with YACD...lighthouses would be fun
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17:11<frosch123>andythenorth: i just want to fix the dicrepance between the new wiki and the old wiki
17:11<@Terkhen>IIRC lumber was WDPR
17:11<andythenorth>yes
17:12<andythenorth>lumber is wdpr
17:12<frosch123>so, it has that cargo :)
17:12<andythenorth>the issues relating to that are too painful to discuss :P
17:12<andythenorth>it requires a detailed discussion of how chipboard is made
17:12<andythenorth>meanwhile
17:13<andythenorth>YACD might supply 200 PAX / month to a lighthouse
17:13<andythenorth>would that be non-ideal?
17:13<@Yexo>200 tourists a month is not so much
17:13<andythenorth>quite a lot of lighthouse keepers though :)
17:14<@Yexo>perhaps it's a good location to fish?
17:14<andythenorth>yarp
17:15*andythenorth should work on CHIPS soon
17:15<andythenorth>that had nothing to do with fish comment
17:15<andythenorth>but it's nearly at 10k downloads, and I am superstitious about numbers
17:16<@Yexo>you can work on it and just delay the release a bit :)
17:16<andythenorth>I think delaying the release is quite easy :)
17:16<andythenorth>but 10k is enough, definitely time for some 'new'
17:17<andythenorth>do / should stations have snow support in graphics?
17:17<andythenorth>original TTD ones don't
17:17<@Yexo>would be very nice :)
17:17<andythenorth>snow can be drawn
17:18<andythenorth>CHIPS has pleasingly low ticket count
17:18<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/chips/issues
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17:18<@Terkhen>that's an issue: "missing features that cause a lot of bugs" :P
17:19<andythenorth>FIRS has 88 open and 411 closed
17:19<andythenorth> @calc 411/88
17:19<andythenorth>@calc 411/88
17:19<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 4.67045454545
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17:23<andythenorth>@calc 88/499
17:23<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 0.176352705411
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17:23<andythenorth>@calc 411/499
17:23<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 0.823647294589
17:23<andythenorth>FIRS is 82% done
17:23<andythenorth>on the silly assumption that all tickets are same amount of 'done'
17:24*andythenorth suspects that it should be re-normalised
17:24<@Terkhen>and that no new tickets will appear :)
17:24<andythenorth>allowing for NML conversion, it's about 50% done
17:24<andythenorth>depends how hard recreating comments + template structures is I guess
17:26<andythenorth>this would be an easy CHIPS ticket: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2690
17:26<andythenorth>just needs some feedback
17:28<@Terkhen>good night
17:28<bodis>when you get a bigger airport available how do you upgrade?
17:29<bodis>destroy old one and build new one?
17:29<bodis>will all plain roots be still the same?
17:29<core>anyone here familiar with autopilot?
17:29<SpComb>bodis: the station doesn't go away right away
17:29*andythenorth -> bed
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17:29<bodis>ahh ok
17:30<SpComb>bodis: it times out after a minute or two if you don't build a replacement station
17:30<SpComb>save first and practice :)
17:30<bodis>k thanks :)
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18:27<frosch123>night
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18:47<kermit>im running ottd 0.5.3 on a mac. When I download the latest update do I just replace my old openttd icon with whatever I download? I dont need to download new grfx files or anything?
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18:54<Eddi|zuHause>quak
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21:35<luQue>is there a good place to get an overview over custom builds?
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---Logclosed Fri Jun 17 00:00:57 2011