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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-06-17

---Logopened Fri Jun 17 00:00:57 2011
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02:41<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:05<dihedral>morning :-)
03:06<dihedral>i got my car :-)
03:10<dihedral>morning Terkhen
03:11<@Terkhen>hi dihedral :)
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03:41<JVassie>Hmm, whats the general procedure for doing a livery refit in plain NFO?
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03:45<@planetmaker>JVassie: you need to define a cargo subtype
03:45<@planetmaker>via callback
03:45<JVassie>right :p
03:46<@planetmaker>switched back from nml to nfo? ;-)
03:46<JVassie>lol no
03:46<JVassie>just seeing if understanding the nfo would help me get on with the NML :)
03:46<@Terkhen>in stuff like engines, make sure that either you use a special cargo or have capacity = 0
03:46<@Terkhen>unless they are supposed to have capacity :P
03:47<@planetmaker>JVassie: I bet rather not. Of course such knowledge doesn't hurt with adv. things
03:47<@planetmaker>again... look at the flatbed wagon
03:47<JVassie>well engines normally wont have capacity I guess
03:47<@Terkhen>there is an annoying bug in the spain set with this... with cargo trains picking up a single passenger in their locomotive and leaving with their wagons almost empty
03:47<JVassie>planetmaker: I did, but because i didnt understand what I was looking for, I think it eluded me :p
03:49<@planetmaker>hm... the flatbed wagon hasn't different liveries for the same cargo...
03:51<@planetmaker>still... you need to define different sub cargos for the same cargo and then query the refit_cycle to chose the proper graphics set
03:59<@planetmaker> <-- JVassie
04:00<JVassie>thanks mate
04:00<JVassie>i shall peruse :)
04:00<@planetmaker>untested but I think it should work, or similar
04:00<JVassie>the spriteset templates just produce a standard spriteset with 8 views?
04:01<JVassie>switch (FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, flatbed_wagon_ensp_livery_switch, refit_cycle) {
04:01<JVassie> 0: flatbed_wagon_engineeringsupplies_vehicle1_group;
04:01<JVassie> flatbed_wagon_engineeringsupplies_vehicle2_group;
04:01<JVassie>should that 2nd line not start with 1: ?
04:04<JVassie>dunno, just checking :p
04:04<JVassie>so that switch changes the graphics during the refit cycle
04:04<JVassie>switch (FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, flatbed_wagon_cb_cargo_suffix_switch, cargo_type_in_veh) {
04:04<JVassie> CB_FAILED;
04:05<JVassie>this switch provides the two strings for use, but not sure how the cargo types come into it
04:05<JVassie>as theyre both the same
04:06<@planetmaker>you wanted that, didn't you?
04:06<@planetmaker>If you just want different looks for different cargos... just query cargo_type_in_veh and chose graphics accordingly
04:06<@planetmaker>then you don't need the CB
04:08<@planetmaker> <- just like this
04:08<@planetmaker>and be done
04:10<@planetmaker>what I showed you in the first paste is means to allow the player to explicitly choose different looks for the _same_ cargo
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04:27<andythenorth>multi-stop docks would be fun
04:28<andythenorth> I get an opinion on this?
04:28<andythenorth>crowd-sourcing is so much easier than Just Making A Decision :P
04:29<@planetmaker>option B: auto-magic and manual tiles, both make sense
04:29<@planetmaker>though the manual tiles probably need be only a small subset
04:30<andythenorth>I think there will be about 12 or so
04:30<andythenorth>+/- 8
04:30<@planetmaker>Like it needs not separate tiles for each cargo. But the building or so could be a separate tile
04:30<andythenorth>ok thanks
04:30<andythenorth>decision made
04:31<andythenorth>means switching menus...
04:31<andythenorth>kind of fiddly?
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04:53<JVassie><planetmaker> what I showed you in the first paste is means to allow the player to explicitly choose different looks for the _same_ cargo
04:53<JVassie>thats what i wanted :)
04:53<JVassie>but, in the case where its an engine and has 0 capacity, how does it change that?
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05:09<@Alberth>hi eddie
05:09<@Alberth>*eddi (Sorry!)
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05:09<@planetmaker>[10:31] andythenorth means switching menus... <-- I don't think. from my own style of building I need two modes: the automatic one-click-fits-whole-station and the I-want-it-exactly-that
05:10<@planetmaker>thus it can be two menu entries just as well
05:10<andythenorth>the edge case for me is PAX faciliities
05:10<andythenorth>but there I use default station personally
05:10<@planetmaker>JVassie: also by the sub-"cargo" callback
05:10<andythenorth>so I have to switch anyway
05:11<@planetmaker>that doesn't need a cargo, it just offers different strings which then will give you a different sub-"cargo"
05:11<@planetmaker>andythenorth: pax and cargo stations in different menus don't hurt
05:11<andythenorth>I guess not
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07:17<@planetmaker>set design input needed: wrt rail wagons I'd like to introduce some progress in time. One lever is speed limit. Silently increase it for the same wagons over time?
07:17<@planetmaker>I don't want to spam the build list
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07:17<@planetmaker>with like 5 generations for each wagon
07:18<@Yexo>could you detect the "never expire vehicles" flag and make it depend on that?
07:18<@planetmaker>Hm, I thought of that.
07:18<@Yexo>when on, silently upgrade existing wagons. When off, add new wagons
07:19<@planetmaker>only with 'never expire = off' one would then be able to autoreplace them
07:19<@planetmaker>but that's probably fine then
07:19<@Yexo>if you upgrade old wagons you can still decide to upgrade all wagons
07:19<@Yexo>ie make it depend on current_date, not build_date
07:20<@planetmaker>I wonder mostly about the 'never expire=on'
07:20<@Terkhen>will you be able to disable speed limits?
07:20<@planetmaker>or rather: does autoreplace or autorenew work to upgrade to the new version?
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07:20<@planetmaker>Terkhen: disable speed limits is an adv. setting. so: yes
07:20<@planetmaker>it's out of newgrf control
07:20<@Terkhen>ok :P
07:20<@Yexo>planetmaker: autorenew doesn't work for wagons
07:20<@Yexo>and autoreplace does, but only to another vehicleid
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07:21<@Terkhen>but if speed limits is off, will you have a lot of identical wagons?
07:21<Eddi|nichZuHause> <@planetmaker> set design input needed: wrt rail wagons I'd like to introduce some progress in time. One lever is speed limit. Silently increase it for the same wagons over time? <-- yes, that was my thought as well, that's why i asked whether a newgrf could issue a news message like "wagon speed limit is now X"
07:21<@planetmaker>hm... ok, so I'll need new IDs in the 'expire' case
07:21<@Yexo>planetmaker: why? why not upgrade _existing_ wagons as well?
07:22<@planetmaker>and change them while they're running on the tracks?
07:22<@Yexo><planetmaker> hm... ok, so I'll need new IDs in the 'expire' case <- was that about "vehicles never expire = on"?
07:22<@Terkhen>IIRC those changes only happen in depots
07:22<@Yexo>that should be fine
07:23<Eddi|nichZuHause>speed limit callback might be run on track change as well?
07:23<@planetmaker>Yexo: in order to not flood the purchase list I can use different IDs in the 'expire=on' case. But in the 'expire=never' case, I'd not like to do that
07:23<@planetmaker>as 3 or 4 flatbed wagons are boring
07:23<@Yexo>planetmaker: I agree
07:23<@Yexo>I misunderstood "the 'expire' case" as "expire=never"
07:23<@peter1138>upgrading whilst on track is wrong
07:24<@peter1138>(or on road)
07:24<@planetmaker>Upgrading in depot... might work via CB
07:24<@planetmaker>silently so-to-speak
07:25<@peter1138>in the depot is fine, i think
07:25<@peter1138>just be wary of network consistency
07:25<@planetmaker>in what way, peter1138 ?
07:27<@planetmaker>hm... so I'll have to check something like 'days since last service' wrt the intro date of a new wagon generation
07:27<@planetmaker>that might work
07:27<@planetmaker>though it'll be nice to give the user also the choice to NOT upgrade automatically
07:28<@planetmaker>but that then only is viable with different IDs, right? Hm... I do have the purchase date, do I?
07:28<@Yexo>newgrf parameter to switch between upgrading / not upgrading automatically / introduce different vehicles
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07:29<@planetmaker>and... the different versions as sub cargos. Where only the newest is available, but nothing changes when no refit is done...
07:29<@Yexo>can you set a subcargo on build?
07:29<@planetmaker>Only on refit
07:30<@Terkhen>can you decide which refits are available?
07:30<@Yexo>there are bugs with refit wrt to subcargos
07:30<@Yexo>so that's not a good idea
07:30<@Yexo>Terkhen: yes
07:30<@planetmaker>a normal CB chain can contain date
07:30<@Terkhen>I was thinking that you could "force" a refit by making only the one you want available
07:30<@Terkhen>but yes, there are bugs with cargo subtypes
07:32<@planetmaker>well, that bug being there should not stop a solution via sub-cargo abuse ;-)
07:32<@Yexo>but it does
07:33<@planetmaker>at least in this case it's ok to upgrade all wagons to, say, 2nd gen
07:33<@Yexo>if you refit the complete train to another subcargo of one other wagon, all your wagons might be downgraded
07:34<@planetmaker>Well, I'd not make available concurrently more than one generation. So only an upgrade is possible - if different wagons are introduced at the same time, I guess
07:34<@Yexo>planetmaker: the bug with subcargoes is about the fact that in some cases a subcargo can be set that was not even available
07:35<@Yexo>so subcargo 0 could be set for your wagons when only 3 and 4 are available
07:35<@Yexo>as such downgrading the wagon from generation 4 (or 5) to generation 1 instead of upgrading it
07:35<@planetmaker>so, assume I have a valuables wagon and a bulk (coal) wagon. I refit the latter to 2nd gen
07:35<@planetmaker>the valuables has no generations. Anything bad?
07:36<@Yexo>using subcargoes for this feels wrong anyway
07:38<@Yexo>var 92 contains "date of last service in days since 1920"
07:39<@planetmaker>that's... sad that it's not 0-based days
07:39<@planetmaker>since 1920 is soooo TTD ;-)
07:40<@Terkhen>code another var :P
07:40<@planetmaker>I probably should do that, yes
07:40<@planetmaker>or this simply won't work :-P
07:40<@Terkhen>what else would change besides wagon speed?
07:41<@planetmaker>graphics slightly
07:41<@Yexo>planetmaker: as long as the second generation of wagons comes out after 1920 there shouldn't be a problem
07:41<@planetmaker>Yexo: and after 2090?
07:41<@planetmaker>what does it give then?
07:42<@Yexo>before 1920 it gives 0
07:42<@planetmaker>always? Hm... might work. Then 2nd gen is 1921 or so
07:42<@Terkhen>my problem with wagon speed limits is that I don't see the point for them... engines have a speed limit already, and new engines appear over time
07:43<@planetmaker>@calc 65535 / 365.24
07:43<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 179.429963859
07:43<@Terkhen>designing engines too fast for the current wagons does not make much sense, and if they are slower then wagon speed limit serves no purpose
07:43<@planetmaker>Terkhen: I don't mind them, I don't use them. But some players like them, so I can give it to them
07:43<@planetmaker>It doesn't harm me
07:44<@Terkhen>ok :P
07:44<@planetmaker>and changing graphics and possibly capacity over time also makes sense :-)
07:44<@Terkhen>I was going to add that maybe they should have other differences, such as running costs (which I also don't like, but it makes sense for the feature)
07:45<@Terkhen>and maybe capacities, yes
07:45<@Terkhen>you could steal the 2cc wagons :P
07:45<@planetmaker> <-- like I have there 2 wagons which can only load 1 crate, 4 wagons which can load 4 and one which doesn't apply to crates
07:46<@planetmaker>so... the one-crate wagons could somehow be 'early' and the two-crate wagons could be generations 2 and three
07:48<@planetmaker>Though the early wagons might then indeed need some much more special graphics
07:48<@planetmaker>But that can be changed when I have it ;-)
07:48<Eddi|nichZuHause>planetmaker: german cargo wagons of ~1910-1924:
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07:49<@planetmaker>I'd end up with a German Trainsset, Eddi ;-)
07:50<@planetmaker>the bad(?) thing is: if someone drew it, I'd even code it :-P
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07:50<@planetmaker>otherwise we'd never get an up-to-date and extensible German trainset
07:52<Eddi|nichZuHause>i have a few ideas myself
07:52<@planetmaker>the long wagon thingy?
07:52<Eddi|nichZuHause>yes, for example
07:53<Eddi|nichZuHause>but i can't draw anything... i tried...
07:53<Eddi|nichZuHause>but... i have actual work to do now...
07:55<Eddi|nichZuHause><@Terkhen> my problem with wagon speed limits is that I don't see the point for them... engines have a speed limit already, and new engines appear over time <-- main effect of wagon speed limits is differentiating passenger and freight traffic
07:56<@Terkhen>oh, that makes sense :P
07:56<@Terkhen>I was thinking just on generations of the same wagon with different speeds
07:58<@Terkhen>meh... I have just started checking the spain set thread from the beginning
07:58<@Terkhen>I have no clue of who took part in the project, I only know that they were a lot of people
07:58<@Terkhen>might be better to get new sprites than to relicense the old set :/
08:00<@planetmaker>Terkhen: just ask each person who posted sprites whether you can (re)use them
08:00<@Yexo>if you find one or two people who contributed a lot of sprites, you could try to ask only them to relicense their sprites
08:00<@planetmaker>write a few forum mails ;-)
08:00<@Terkhen>they even mention some people that were not in the forums at all :P
08:00<JVassie>Eddi|nichZuHause: your translation comes out as Churchill's patch pack :D
08:00<@Terkhen>they talk about a tracking table, but it seems to have dissapeared
08:01<Noldo>is the patch still alive and kicking?
08:02<@planetmaker> <-- Terkhen ?
08:02<Eddi|nichZuHause>planetmaker: anyway, my most immediate plan was to pick a single train, my eye fell on the LBE double decker train, and make a test-grf for the long wagons project out of that
08:03<@planetmaker>how far did you get?
08:03<@Terkhen>planetmaker: nice!
08:03<Eddi|nichZuHause>i watched a few blender tutorials ;)
08:03<@Terkhen>it only contains a few trains but it is a good start :P
08:04<Eddi|nichZuHause>i tried pixel-drawing but did not get anywhere
08:05<Eddi|nichZuHause>on the code-side it needs finishing of the "return special sprite if drawing in GUI"
08:05<@planetmaker>That's relatively easy, Eddi|
08:05<@planetmaker>cargo 0xFF in the graphics block
08:05<@planetmaker>just link to the graphics you want to show
08:05<Eddi|nichZuHause>no, that is the build window
08:05<Eddi|nichZuHause>i meant GUI as in vehicle details
08:06<Eddi|nichZuHause>which is something different
08:06<@planetmaker>hm, ok. Why does that need a special one?
08:06<Eddi|nichZuHause>because the GUI shouldn't change sprites when the wagon makes fancy var-45 stuff
08:07<Eddi|nichZuHause>otherwise you get disconnected or otherwise weird drawings
08:07<@planetmaker>whatever var45 is :-)
08:07<Eddi|nichZuHause>var45 = curvature info
08:07<Eddi|nichZuHause>better to see: av8 planes on takeoff
08:08<Eddi|nichZuHause>JVassie: what's so special about that particular thread?
08:09<JVassie><JVassie> Eddi|nichZuHause: your translation comes out as Churchill's patch pack :D
08:09<JVassie>just found it amusing :p
08:10<Eddi|nichZuHause>planetmaker: you can see for yourself, pick my longwagons test grf, build a train, and let it run around curves in a circle, then watch the vehicle details window or the train list window
08:10<@planetmaker>Eddi|nichZuHause: are there somewhere sprites which could be considered a start for a German trainset?
08:10<@planetmaker>where's that test grf?
08:15<JVassie>planetmaker: not happy with DBSet?
08:15<Eddi|nichZuHause>planetmaker: in the newgrf technical forum
08:16<@planetmaker>JVassie: it's unusable in multiplayer
08:16<Eddi|nichZuHause>JVassie: the 5 year old outdated version or the 5 year unreleased version?
08:16<JVassie>not true sir
08:16<@planetmaker>due to author-issues
08:16<@planetmaker>JVassie: only bananas-grfs are usable in multiplayer
08:16<Eddi|nichZuHause>JVassie: ENotOnBananas
08:16<JVassie>well Eddi, dotn think anyoen is happy with the unreleased 0.9
08:17<JVassie>is that a rule or a physical restriction?
08:17<@planetmaker>it doesn't support parameter GUI. it has silly restrictions on engine pool and never-expire vehicles. And it's not open source
08:17<@planetmaker>JVassie: you cannot sensibly run a server with grfs not found on banans
08:18<Ammler>well, it is more open as pikka grfs :-)
08:18<JVassie>so more of a 'rule' then I guess
08:18<Ammler>at least it has a license ;-)
08:18<@planetmaker>thus not on bananas is to me like doesn't exist
08:18<@planetmaker>And not worth bothering with
08:18<JVassie>me and Ameecher quite happily manage multiplayer games with it :p
08:19<JVassie>and wve made our own extensions for it
08:19<JVassie>DB Double Deck (which is on bananas)
08:19<JVassie>and TRAXX (which isnt yet)
08:19<@planetmaker>if you only play with selected buddies: yes. But that hardly then counts as 'open server'
08:19<@planetmaker>as no one who doesn't know that forum thread will be able to join
08:19<JVassie><planetmaker> JVassie: it's unusable in open server multiplayer FYP :)
08:20<Ammler>not sure, what is better, unlicensed grfs on bananas or licensed grfs not on bananas
08:20<JVassie>the latter
08:20<JVassie>hmm dunno actually
08:20<@planetmaker>JVassie: it IMHO generally not usable then for MP. Especially as there's no reason for authors to NOT upload released grfs to bananas
08:21<@planetmaker>Ammler: each grf on bananas has a license :-)
08:21<JVassie>obviously i agree with you :)
08:21<Ammler>well, dbset not on bananas is due to bananas restrictions not an issue of MB
08:21<JVassie>is it?
08:21<Ammler>MB would allow it
08:21<Ammler>he just doesn't do it self
08:21<JVassie>ive never uploaded anything to bananas
08:22<JVassie>Ameecher does it for me :p
08:22<@planetmaker>well, so?
08:22<JVassie>I presume there are conditions of uploading
08:22<JVassie>like being the grf owner
08:22<JVassie>and it havign a license?
08:22<Ammler>yep, only author can
08:22<Ammler>license is not required
08:22<JVassie>reminds me though
08:22<JVassie>need to get Ameecher to upload our latest addon :p
08:23<JVassie>3 new locos
08:23<Noldo>so banana restrictions AND unwillingend of the author to do it
08:23<JVassie>kind of ironic were talkign about DBSet, Ive just finished writign a timeline guide to it :p
08:24<Ammler>planetmaker: maybe you can setup a team with the europe set guy :-)
08:25<@planetmaker>yes, I thought so
08:25<JVassie>your planning your own german trains set?
08:25<Ammler>not yet :-P
08:25<@planetmaker>Ammler says it ;-)
08:26<@planetmaker>obviously it might make sense to get Eddi onto the team then, too ;-)
08:26<JVassie>whats the plan?
08:26<JVassie>I wouldnt mind being involved :p
08:26<Ammler>alpine set :-P
08:27<@planetmaker>honestly, JVassie ?
08:27<JVassie>well, I started the Swiss Set
08:27<@planetmaker>the main thing which stops/ed me is a lack of sprites
08:28<Ammler>isn't there also a partially öb set?
08:28<JVassie>does the dbsetxl license stop you from editing it (even if you dont release it)
08:28<@planetmaker>and I'd quite fancy to not do that set alone indeed. But mostly it needs a person who then really draws sprites for this set specifically as e.g. Voyager does for 2ccTS
08:28<@planetmaker>JVassie: I don't write grf for myself
08:28<Ammler>JVassie: if you don't release, who should someone blame?
08:28<JVassie>lol :D
08:29<JVassie>I presume your allowed to post pictures of your creation
08:29<JVassie>so you can just tease people endlessly
08:29<Ammler>just be careful with credtis :-P
08:29<@planetmaker>yeah. But I don't want to exercise the habits of SAC and mb neither
08:29<JVassie>SAC did release the grfs though
08:29<@planetmaker>besides I'd be too much an attention-whore to not release it :-P
08:30<JVassie>ill talk to Ameecher
08:30<@Yexo>JVassie: and how much content was in there relative to the amount of content was showed in all teasers / screenshots?
08:30<JVassie>if we sort out sprites
08:30<JVassie>will you code?
08:30<JVassie>Yexo, dotn know tbh
08:30<JVassie>didnt download them
08:30<@planetmaker>I'd work on such set, yes
08:30<@Yexo>coding for a properly-licensed german trainset won't be a problem
08:31*Yexo volunteers to help with code too if that's needed
08:31<Ammler>planetmaker: seriously what about a alpine set with branches to germany?
08:31<JVassie>Now, should I bump a topic which hasnt been replied in since March 2005? :p
08:31<@planetmaker>JVassie: with a usable reply ;-)
08:31<JVassie>well it's a downloadable .doc with a new guide
08:31<JVassie>so somewhat usable i guess :p
08:31<@peter1138>.doc? how antiquated
08:31<@planetmaker>Ammler: So a central European TS?
08:32<JVassie>well nto everyoen has .docx compatibility
08:32<JVassie>hence my choice
08:32<@peter1138>most of the time you should present it as a pdf
08:32<JVassie>mmm true
08:32<@peter1138>not everyone has .doc compatibility
08:32<@planetmaker>Ammler: and then a switch "swiss/austrian/german/.."?
08:33<@peter1138>and even then, it doesn't always look the same
08:33<JVassie>i suppose most peoples browsers these days can handle pdfs
08:33<JVassie>peter1138: nothing fancy in it
08:33<JVassie>just tables and text
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08:34<JVassie>planetmaker: OTTD has no limit on vehicle IDs now right?
08:34<@planetmaker>no practical limit
08:34<@Yexo>there is a limit at around 64000 IDs
08:34<JVassie>good reply :D
08:35<@planetmaker>What I do not want to do is the mistake of the 2ccTS: it has WAY too many vehicles
08:35<JVassie>What d you think regarding the 'spread' in the dbsetxl?
08:35<@planetmaker>Thus if I start on such set, it'll need at least initially a good selection of engines over time, one pax, one fright or so
08:35<@Yexo>the problem of the 2ccTS was that is had no scope at all
08:36<@planetmaker>the db set is well balanced actually
08:36<@planetmaker>and also well drawn
08:36<@planetmaker>very well even
08:36<@peter1138>is it?
08:36<Eddi|nichZuHause>it definitely is
08:36<@peter1138>i find it looks a bit pants compared to pikka's efforts
08:37<@peter1138>some of the wagons are pretty crude
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08:37<JVassie>peter1138: have you seen mb's unreleased gfx/
08:37<Eddi|nichZuHause>well, pikka's gfx from 5 years ago ;)
08:37<@peter1138>that'll be unreleased...
08:37<JVassie>and? :p
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08:38<@peter1138>i've not seen it, so i can't comment
08:38<Eddi|nichZuHause>there are screenshots around ;)
08:38<JVassie>a lot of the pictures show huge improvements to the db sprites
08:38<JVassie>german tt forums particularly
08:39<@peter1138>feel free to provide links
08:39<@peter1138>i don't frequent the german tt forums
08:39<JVassie>i dont speak german :p
08:39<@peter1138>i'm not looking at the whole forum
08:39<JVassie>2 secs
08:39<@planetmaker>:-D quite a bit generic link, eh? :-)
08:39<Eddi|nichZuHause>almost all images are in the "MB" thread in tt-forums as well
08:39<@peter1138>i was commenting on the state of MB's *released* dbset
08:40<Eddi|nichZuHause>well, it's 5 years old
08:40<Eddi|nichZuHause>actually 6 by now
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08:41<JVassie>first pic i found in the thread
08:41<@peter1138>yes, that's good
08:41<@peter1138>but not released
08:42<@planetmaker>and it's in that state since about 2007
08:42<@peter1138>yeah, i see what you mean
08:43<JVassie><planetmaker> the db set is well balanced actually
08:43<JVassie>aye I agree
08:43<JVassie>couple of missing things
08:43<JVassie>which I believe he was planning on rectifying in 0.9
08:43<@planetmaker>it's technologically out-dated
08:43<JVassie>if it were ever to be released
08:43<JVassie>very true
08:43<@planetmaker>but I have no faith in him releasing anything and if so he won't make it available in a useful way to the community
08:43<JVassie>to my knowledge, the reason 0.9 is sooo delayed
08:43<@planetmaker>Thus it'll be lost when he looses interest
08:43<JVassie>is because hes working on newships
08:44<JVassie>and his own m4nfo language
08:44<@planetmaker>hahahaha :-)
08:44<@planetmaker>honestly: I don't care of the reasons.
08:44<@planetmaker>None is a good one
08:45<JVassie>oh yeah, remember the db passenger set?
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08:46<@planetmaker>no, I don't
08:46<JVassie>ah right
08:46<@planetmaker>ah, will be closed source, too
08:46<@planetmaker>thus also lost work
08:46<JVassie>it was 06
08:46<JVassie>Im on (well was) on the team
08:47<@planetmaker>he, see that ;-)
08:47<@planetmaker>You didn't get far, it seems
08:47<JVassie>no we didnt
08:48<JVassie>mainly due to Saskia leaving
08:48<JVassie>and *shudder* Purnos involvement
08:48<JVassie>there was a time when I looked up to Purno *grimface*
08:48<@planetmaker>that time was there, yes
08:48<@planetmaker>times change
08:48<@planetmaker>he's an excellent artist
08:49<@planetmaker>and was quite quick in that, too
08:49<JVassie>hes not that great, from what I recall of his work
08:49<JVassie>not looked too closely for a while though
08:49<@planetmaker>well. ok :-)
08:49<JVassie>another project i was on that didnt get off the ground
08:49<@planetmaker>One can do better. But it's definitely not bad
08:50<@planetmaker>you know a lot of dead projects, it seems ;-)
08:51<JVassie>ill see if i have ftp details for them both
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08:54<@planetmaker>gimme sprites and at best also a draft plan on vehicles ;-)
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08:56<JVassie>Gotta wait for Ameecher to get back from work, no way I can manage graphics by myself
08:56<JVassie>he is better at it anyway :p
08:57<JVassie>just realised i have had the british stations grf since oct 08
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09:02<JVassie>topic bump, 6 years and nearly 3 months
09:02<JVassie>a new record :D
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09:14<@planetmaker> <-- JVassie
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09:14<@planetmaker>please register ;-)
09:16<JVassie>does this login cover bananas too?
09:16*dihedral thought of timestamp
09:16<@Yexo>but it does cover all other projects on the openttdcoop devzone
09:16<JVassie>hairy nuff
09:16<dihedral>openttd / tt-forums wide sso
09:16<JVassie>will probably put MSS up there some day soon (tm)
09:17<@Yexo>JVassie: yes, I planned on doing that this weekend :)
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09:17<JVassie>wooo \o/
09:17<JVassie>hopefully ill be able to copy pasta some of the nfo
09:17<JVassie>and get new additions to work
09:19<JVassie>shopfronts :p
09:19<@Yexo>yes, that station is in one of mb's screenshots
09:19<JVassie>was mb's one based on alexanderplatz?
09:19<@planetmaker>he lives close by
09:19<@Yexo>don't know, but it looks exactly like it
09:20<JVassie>the majority of the 'central mainline' through Berlin is on 'stilts'
09:20<@planetmaker>thus it *might* be another such station there, too ;-)
09:20<JVassie>from westkreuz to ostkreuz
09:21<@Yexo>but how many of those are glass like alexanderplatz?
09:21<JVassie>fair few
09:22<JVassie>zoo' is
09:22<Eddi|nichZuHause><JVassie> was mb's one based on alexanderplatz? <-- no, friedrichstraße
09:22<JVassie>freidrichstrasse is
09:22<JVassie>cept i couldnt do the ß easily >.>
09:22<@planetmaker>also JVassie better remove your reply to the spam posting thread quickly before a global mod finds it ;-)
09:24<JVassie>whats wrong with it?
09:24<JVassie>oh fag
09:24<JVassie>didnt look at the guys sig >.<
09:24<JVassie>thx for the heads up
09:24<@Yexo>Hyronymus can be quite brutal :p
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09:24<JVassie>Hyronymous is putty in my hands :D
09:25<Eddi|nichZuHause> <JVassie> cept i couldnt do the ß easily >.> <- compose+ss, or altgr+s, if you have a useful keymap ;)
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09:26*Rubidium almost was at that station yesterday ;)
09:27<@planetmaker>JVassie: could you register at the DevZone?
09:27<JVassie>planetmaker: sorry
09:27<JVassie>was installing chrome
09:27<JVassie>opera is annoying me
09:27<JVassie>and hotmail fails on firefox
09:27<@planetmaker>use a real mail client ;-)
09:28<JVassie>ive had hotmail for too many years :p
09:28<dihedral>planetmaker, you consider 'hotmail' a mail client? :-P
09:28<Rubidium>the one just west of Hackescher Markt ;)
09:28<JVassie>been too many years since i was in berlin :(
09:28<JVassie>i remember some weird things though
09:28<JVassie>like kochstrasse for checkpoint charlie
09:28<@planetmaker>dihedral: surely not. But "hotmail fails on FF" indicates that no such thing is used, dihedral
09:28<JVassie>on the U6 iirc
09:29<@planetmaker>ho, salut Rubidium :-)
09:29<@planetmaker>Did you wave when you speeded past my place?
09:29<JVassie>planetmaker: registered
09:29<@planetmaker>I didn't see anything ;-)
09:29<@planetmaker>JVassie: yes, made you also project manager
09:30<@Yexo>JVassie: i you join #openttdcoop.devzone you'll also see all commits announced on irc
09:31<JVassie>ta :)
09:32<JVassie>shocked im not included :p
09:32<@planetmaker>:-D That's my standard dummy project
09:33<@planetmaker>Don't worry about contributions not being done. But the makefile framework which I copied... well... I'm the author there ;-)
09:33<JVassie>I jest :)
09:33<@planetmaker>I know ;-)
09:36<@planetmaker>I actually wouldn't mind if it started with the really early stuff
09:36<JVassie>So how is the project managed on a feature level?
09:36<JVassie>ie whats getting included etc?
09:36<JVassie>a tracking table?
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09:38<JVassie>we also need to decide on countries to include, be it just DE, CH and A? or CZ too? PL also?
09:39<Eddi|nichZuHause>depends on what your definition of "Germany" might be :p
09:39<@planetmaker>Personally I'd focus on Germany. But there's IMHO no clear black and white
09:39<@planetmaker>so that's why I also chose "central European" ;-)
09:39<@planetmaker>Eddi|nichZuHause: interested to join the project, too?
09:40<JVassie>Eddi has al ot of useful knowledge on german railways :p
09:40<JVassie>*a lot
09:40<Eddi|nichZuHause>ask me later
09:40<JVassie>maybe we could invite mb too?
09:40<@planetmaker>not a good idea, JVassie :-) He hates me
09:40<Eddi|nichZuHause>don't distract him
09:40<JVassie>he's working on newships am i right Eddi?
09:41<@orudge>He'll contribute a load of graphics, and then two years later decide that he doesn't like the way you've upgraded the project and insist they all be removed ;)
09:41<Eddi|nichZuHause>he already released that one, didn't he?
09:41<Eddi|nichZuHause>he's working on lots of things
09:41<JVassie>well theres a 0.48 prelease on the german forums
09:41<JVassie>which goes alongside marico
09:41<@planetmaker>hu, of what?
09:41<Eddi|nichZuHause>ships, trains, stations, houses, industries, alpine, ...
09:42<Eddi|nichZuHause>JVassie: iirc there was a real release as well
09:42<JVassie>well yeah but that was ancient :p
09:42<Eddi|nichZuHause>i meant of 0.48
09:42<JVassie>when? :o
09:42<JVassie>i only foudn the prelease
09:43<@planetmaker>JVassie: you immediately see the adv. of bananas there, right? ;-)
09:43<JVassie>true :p
09:43<JVassie>i dotn disagree with you planetmaker ;)
09:43<@Yexo>orudge: too bad for him all projects at the devzone have a clear license which doesn't allow that ;)
09:43<@planetmaker>hm... I wonder whether the devzone CF could interface banannas directly ;-)
09:44<@Yexo>planetmaker: even if it could, should it really do that?
09:44<@planetmaker>I'm not sure. Might be a bad idea
09:44<@planetmaker>but it would make releases even easier ;-)
09:45<@planetmaker>of course it would need enabling in a similar way enabling the CF itself is needed
09:45<JVassie>i just at the time thought you were implyign there was some physical impossibility of using dbset in multiplayer, i was getting ready to jump in and prove you wrong :D
09:46<@planetmaker>:-) I know it works there. Played it myself not only once
09:46<JVassie><Eddi|nichZuHause> i meant of 0.48
09:46<JVassie>can you remember where?
09:46<Rubidium>planetmaker: uhmm... there was too much water (in liquid or solid form) between me and the ground to even guess when I would be near you :(
09:47<@planetmaker>oh, you flew?
09:47<@planetmaker>Not railways as "usual"?
09:47<JVassie>planetmaker: where do you live?
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09:47<Rubidium>they wanted us to be there at 11:00, and that fails with the train
09:47<@planetmaker>between berlin and hanovre
09:47<@planetmaker>he, right
09:48<JVassie>fair enough
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09:49*orudge puts planetmaker on a plane between WRY and PPW
09:49<@planetmaker>orudge: our travel forms used to have a checkbox for the means of travel for [x] self-piloted plane ;-)
09:50<@orudge> :D
09:50<@planetmaker>haha :-)
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09:50<@orudge>it'll take longer to get from the gate to the runway at most large airports than it would to get from Westray to Papa Westray
09:51<@orudge>indeed, some runways are actually longer than that distance :P
09:51<@orudge>not as wet, though.
09:51<Rubidium>orudge: well... SXF -> AMS has something similar... :(
09:51<Rubidium>flight time was less than taxi time
09:51<@orudge>Rubidium: hmm, 371 miles though, that's not too bad
09:52<@orudge>I frequently flew MAN - LHR, which is 151 miles
09:52<@planetmaker>luckily taxing on our local airport at least for such small planes doesn't take that long either
09:52<@orudge>the pilot would announce that we were now at cruising altitude
09:52<JVassie>"The "licence" for these sets allows using, copying and distribution. It does not allow modifying of any part of the .grfs nor including it into other software, e.g. other .grfs. " --- from one of MBs first ever posts
09:52<@planetmaker>the large planes... migth. But they don't start on grass.
09:52<@orudge>then about 3 minutes later, he'd announce that they were beginning their descent
09:52<@planetmaker>hehe :-)
09:52<@orudge>hmm, and my first flight on Tuesday, Manchester to Dublin, is only 165 miles
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09:53<Rubidium>orudge: normally 65 min flight time, now 40 minutes (they said they arrived 25 minutes early), yet gate -> gate took ~100 minutes
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09:54<JVassie>however, a reply by ChrisCF seems to make the point that modification is allowed
09:54<JVassie>and denying it is unlawful
09:54<@orudge>ChrisCF? I presume this is a post from years ago
09:55<JVassie>Apr 2005
09:55<@orudge>that's 6 years ago now :(
09:55<@Yexo>JVassie: that doesn't actually matter. Nobody can stop you modifying it for own use
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09:56<@orudge>6 years since I started university, nearly
09:56<@Yexo>and distributing a modified version _can_ be restricted by mb
09:56<JVassie>idneed Yexo
09:57<JVassie>quite funny reading mb's posts
09:57<JVassie>he obviously used a translator back then
09:57<@orudge>JVassie: link to this topic?
09:59<@peter1138>doesn't look like it to me
09:59<@orudge>patchman needs to post 3 more posts
09:59<@orudge>then he'll have 5555 posts!
09:59<@peter1138>i dunno why he always uses that weird quote character though :S
10:00<JVassie>orudge: your search fu might be better than mine
10:00<JVassie>im tryign to fidn the original thread it got pslit from
10:00<JVassie>silly spelling
10:01<JVassie>planetmaker: tracking table \o/
10:01<@orudge>the forum search isn't always great, but there's always:
10:02<JVassie>google found it for me :p
10:02<JVassie>enough bots indexing the forum these days
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10:03<JVassie>"and....... jesus purno stop trying to make graphics for everything.
10:03<JVassie>This way there will never be a set that's going to be finished."
10:03<JVassie>nice quote there from gonewacko
10:04<Eddi|nichZuHause> <JVassie> "The "licence" for these sets allows using, copying and distribution. It does not allow modifying of any part of the .grfs nor including it into other software, e.g. other .grfs. " --- from one of MBs first ever posts <-- but history says that if you ask for a few particular sprites to reuse, he does allow this
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10:04<JVassie>Dont think he hates me
10:04<Eddi|nichZuHause>e.g. RichK once asked him for the snow/grass transition sprites from alpine, to use in his snow-in-temperate patch
10:04<JVassie>so could always ask :p
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10:05<Eddi|nichZuHause>MB doesn't "hate" people. he "disagrees" with them occasionally ;)
10:06<Eddi|nichZuHause>hm... must... do... actual... work... damnit...
10:06<JVassie><planetmaker> not a good idea, JVassie :-) He hates me
10:06<Eddi|nichZuHause>i'm totally not worth my hourly rate today :p
10:06<JVassie>hourly rate of?
10:07<Ammler>[15:16] <dihedral> openttd / tt-forums wide sso <-- nobody likes openid :-)
10:07<@planetmaker>ok... maybe wrong word. But chance are 9:1 that we would disagree ;-)
10:07<Eddi|nichZuHause>that's easy :p
10:07<Amis>So, the word generator managed to create a city without houses. Is there any way to... "save" this city?
10:07<Amis>It has one tile of road!
10:08<JVassie>orudge: is there a specific license regardign stuff uploaded on tt-forums?
10:08<Eddi|nichZuHause>Amis: town properties => fund new buildings
10:08<@orudge>JVassie: nope.
10:08<Eddi|nichZuHause>Amis: or simply service some nearby industries
10:08<JVassie>bah :(
10:08<Amis>Oh I see
10:08<@orudge>JVassie: I retain ownership of "the forums" as a whole, but individual contributions are the property of their creator, basically
10:08<JVassie>Will have to hope Saskia replies to a PM
10:08<Amis>I though no house means no "cargo area"
10:08<Eddi|nichZuHause>Amis: as long as it has that central road tile, it can grow
10:08<@orudge>Saskia hasn't visited since May 2005
10:09<@orudge>you might be lucky...
10:09<@Alberth>Amis service *industry* :)
10:09<Eddi|nichZuHause>Amis: it only counts that the station gets the town as part of its name
10:09<JVassie>orudge: that didnt help :D
10:09<JVassie>copyright claims can only be filed by the owner right?
10:10<@orudge>or, I imagine, somebody working on their behalf
10:10<@orudge>(IANAL etC)
10:11<JVassie>or hope that one of her posts reveals she says all her work is copyright free
10:11<Eddi|nichZuHause>hm... the windows tab-completition is annoying
10:12<JVassie>oh ho
10:12<JVassie>does that count? :p
10:12<@Terkhen>thank to the crazy nicknames of spain trains I'm being able to find the authors of many engines :P
10:12<@orudge>JVassie: you'd have to ask Saskia :p
10:13<@orudge>or just go ahead and be prepared to remove the graphics at a later date if challenged...
10:13<@orudge>but I wouldn't necessarily recommend that
10:13<Eddi|nichZuHause>it tab-completes ".file.xy.swp" before "file.xy"
10:13<JVassie>Ill quot you on that :D
10:13<JVassie>the first bit anyway
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10:14<Ammler>JVassie: at least we got Purno to define his work as gpl, pikka and george left :-)
10:14<@Yexo>JVassie: I think that would be enough for saskia's sprites, but not for those he based on mb's ones
10:15<JVassie>true Ammler :p
10:15<JVassie>AFAIK the BR111 and sbahn trailers I was looking at are Saskia's work
10:15<JVassie>they were drawn before MBs I believe
10:16<@Yexo>to be sure we're in a the clear someone redrawing would be better though
10:16<JVassie>obviously :)
10:16<JVassie>they are nice sprites though which is a shame
10:16<JVassie>ill shoot saskia a pm nonetheless
10:17<JVassie>maybe she still gets emails when she gets a PM
10:17<Ammler>she? there is no "she" in the tt-world :-)
10:18<JVassie>Saskia was I believe
10:18<@orudge>there have been at least half a dozen "shes" on the forum :p
10:18<Ammler>orudge: who knows ;-)
10:18<@orudge>that we know about#
10:18<@orudge>of course, that's compared with, I dunno, 30,000 "hes" and spambots :p
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10:19<JVassie>Yexo: he graphics were posted May 11 2004
10:20<JVassie>DBSetXL was 05.05.05
10:20<JVassie>nearly a year later
10:20<@Yexo>JVassie: that doesn't prove anything
10:20<Ammler>copyrights don't expire
10:20<@Terkhen>meh, some of the graphics of the spain set were taken from other sets... "with permission", but without license
10:20<@Yexo>there could have been teasers for DBSetXL already containing the sprites
10:24<@planetmaker>but that IMHO would need proving otherwise
10:26<Eddi|nichZuHause><Ammler> copyrights don't expire <--- 70 years after death of author
10:27<@orudge>of course, by the time $RANDOM popular song or album from 70 years previously is about to expire, they'll lobby the government and have it extended to 100 years, or something stupid D:
10:28<Eddi|nichZuHause>orudge: those are mainly the recording rights, which are different from "author"-copyrights
10:28<@orudge>well, similar things happened with Mickey Mouse in the USA
10:29<@orudge>but yes, perhaps
10:29<Eddi|nichZuHause>iirc that is currently 50 years, and the lobbying for 90+ years is already long happening
10:29<Eddi|nichZuHause>50 years after publishing
10:29<Eddi|nichZuHause>or 50 years after recording, if unpublished
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10:31<@planetmaker>both of which is stupidly long
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10:34<Eddi|nichZuHause>yes, but this is completely irrelevant here, because there are no "performing artists" in the grf-world
10:35<Eddi|nichZuHause>this applies to songs, movies, recordings of theater or other performances
10:35<@planetmaker>Eddi|nichZuHause: what about people supplying sound effects or music?
10:36<Eddi|nichZuHause>(and are independent from rights of the text/music authors)
10:36<Eddi|nichZuHause>§ 73 Ausübender Künstler
10:36<Eddi|nichZuHause>Ausübender Künstler im Sinne dieses Gesetzes ist, wer ein Werk oder eine Ausdrucksform der Volkskunst aufführt, singt, spielt oder auf eine andere Weise darbietet oder an einer solchen Darbietung künstlerisch mitwirkt.
10:38<Eddi|nichZuHause>i presume "künstlerisch mitwirken" includes producing sound effects. but not the electrician setting up the cables for the lights.
10:39<Eddi|nichZuHause>(but it does include the person operating the lights)
10:43<Eddi|nichZuHause>the relevant parts for the time frame are: §82 (performing artist), §85 (record producer), §87 (broadcaster)
10:43<Eddi|nichZuHause>(all UrhG)
10:50<Eddi|nichZuHause>basically everybody except the MAFIAA agree that the protection periods are too long
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10:53<JVassie>Yexo: I've sent Saskia a PM
10:54<JVassie>lets just hope we get a reply :p
10:54<JVassie>if not we can draw out own
10:54<@planetmaker>there should be not much waiting for that :-)
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11:01<JVassie>how do you mean planetmaker ?
11:02<@planetmaker>:-) I just meant it doesn't hurt to get drawing nevertheless ;-)
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11:02<@planetmaker>Even with those sprites, there's enough to draw
11:02<@planetmaker>or... first somewhat deciding on a list of engines we 'need'
11:03<JVassie>the latter is something I have desire to work on
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11:03<JVassie>how is is=t best to format such a list?
11:04<@planetmaker>tab separated list ;-)
11:04<JVassie>why? :p
11:05<@planetmaker>or better comma separated ;-)
11:05<@planetmaker>well... what do you use?
11:05<JVassie>I was thinking an excel spreadsheet
11:05<@planetmaker>why would it need something else than a plain text list?
11:05<@planetmaker>what would be the advantage?
11:06<Eddi|nichZuHause>there should be a "short list" and a "long list"
11:06<JVassie>well planetmaker i was thinkign we could use it to collect stats too
11:06<Eddi|nichZuHause>e.g. when playing with daylength, there might be more opportunity to use exotic/specialized engines
11:07<JVassie>anyone check out my timeline guide I posted today?
11:07<JVassie>its damn hard to do it all without build whilst paused
11:08<@planetmaker>Eddi|nichZuHause: definitely yes.
11:08<@planetmaker>but I'd not start with a long list, but rather a short list ;-)
11:08<@planetmaker>But that has nothing to do with the file format
11:08<JVassie>planetmaker: are you thinking just a list of 'items'?
11:09<JVassie>rather than any other information on each item?
11:09<@planetmaker>^ I'm thinking about something like that
11:09<@planetmaker>much easier to handle and edit than a bulky spread sheet programme
11:09<JVassie>on the other hand you lose out lots of useful abilities
11:09<JVassie>lookup tables
11:09<JVassie>calculatign formulae
11:09<@planetmaker>especially as we do not need *any* of its functionality.
11:09<@planetmaker>Where do you need that?
11:10<@planetmaker>and... sorting? that's something my editor can do, too
11:10<Eddi|nichZuHause>basic design rule for the "short list": you have 4 categories: "local passenger", "express passenger", "heavy cargo", "short range/light cargo"
11:10<@planetmaker>and if you use , instead of tab you can always import it in excel or whatever
11:10*planetmaker doesn't posess excel
11:10<Eddi|nichZuHause>every category should have a new engine about every 10 years
11:10<JVassie>well it could be made on googledocs
11:11<@planetmaker>That might be a good idea. That's accessible easily online, too
11:11<@planetmaker>then go for that
11:11<JVassie>Im going to PM you a file on the forums
11:11<JVassie>ah crap
11:11<JVassie>that'd be pointless >.<
11:11<JVassie>* planetmaker doesn't posess excel
11:11<Rubidium>accessible for those with a google account you mean...
11:12<@Yexo>but readable by everyone
11:12<@planetmaker>JVassie: use google docs
11:12<JVassie>Rubidium: you can set it so that anyone with the URL can look at it
11:12<JVassie>planetmaker: indeed
11:12<@planetmaker>and not private communications... link in an issue in the project
11:12<Rubidium>Yexo: I've often been redirected to some google something document and I never remember being able to just read it without having to login
11:12<JVassie>thats dependant on the document Rubidium
11:12<JVassie>not googledocs itself
11:13<@Yexo>some documents require authentication, a lot of them do not
11:13<JVassie>planetmaker: But I was planning on showing you the FRSet .xls spreadsheet
11:13<@planetmaker>depends on settings
11:13<JVassie>and why a spreadsheet is handy :p
11:13<@planetmaker>I know how they can be used ;-) And yes, I can read them.
11:14*Rubidium wonders whether he's allowed to show some spreadsheet "work" from work to show you how it ain't that handy ;)
11:14<@planetmaker>hehe :-)
11:14<JVassie>your an accountant at a guess?
11:14<@Alberth>more likely an engineer with too many numbers :p
11:14<@planetmaker>neither of us
11:14<Rubidium>no, I don't count beans
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11:15<JVassie>want me to start the spreadsheet?
11:15<@planetmaker>yes, sure
11:15<@planetmaker>a set only works, if people *just do it*
11:16<Eddi|nichZuHause>i've seen some evil spreadsheets ;)
11:16*Rubidium develops software for/related to measurement systems used to means pieces of metal; primarily those commonly found just around trains ;)
11:17<JVassie>You have a googlemail account planetmaker & Yexo ?
11:17<@planetmaker>I've a google account, but no mail
11:17<JVassie>./query me
11:18<Eddi|nichZuHause>google is evil
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11:35<__ln__>google isn't necessarily evil but it has a great potential for being evil, and that's scary
11:37<JVassie>planetmaker: what was your definition of 'last' in the tab seperated list you made?
11:37<@planetmaker>JVassie: I'd not centre to table on the names and IDs (that's not so important) but on the (important) stats like introduction year, expiry year, power, speed and usage.
11:37<@planetmaker>that's the year the last engine was de-comissioned
11:38<@planetmaker>we don't need the exact stats there, at least not now.
11:38<JVassie>we can hide columns :)
11:38<JVassie>i hope
11:38<@planetmaker>nor do we need for balance the names
11:38<@planetmaker>yes, we can. But I'd still re-arrange. Names are for planning not important
11:39<JVassie>its just atm the colums are grouped
11:39<@planetmaker>What Eddi|nichZuHause said, to get a list of years with stats, so that we get an overview of what is when... that's needed.
11:39<@planetmaker>Possibly of more engines than we actually use.. .because then we can choose
11:40<@planetmaker>oh, JVassie sorry: 'last' is the last year it was built
11:40<@planetmaker>de-comissioned is the out-of-service year
11:40<@planetmaker>the last year it was built
11:40<JVassie>are we not referencing the model life and engine life properties for ease?
11:40<@planetmaker>intro: first year engine built. Last: last year engine built. de-comissioned: last year in service
11:40<@planetmaker>not for now
11:41<@Terkhen>probably everything that you could do with an excel file can be done with templates anyways :P
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11:41<andythenorth>opening bridges would be quite cool
11:41*andythenorth was in suggestions
11:41<@planetmaker>Terkhen: yes... that'd be another advantage of a plain text csv tracking table. One could just script-parse that into stats ;-)
11:42<andythenorth>xml :P
11:42<@Terkhen>indeed, stuff could be automatically generated
11:42<JVassie>planetmaker: you can download it as a csv any tiem you want
11:42<@Terkhen>and you don't need the additional step of copying things from the sheet to the code
11:42<@planetmaker>my abandoned comic houses did that
11:42<JVassie>stop moaning :D
11:43<JVassie>file, download as, csv
11:43<Eddi|nichZuHause> <andythenorth> opening bridges would be quite cool <-- might be possible with "traffic objects"
11:43<andythenorth>would need to be signalled I guess
11:43<andythenorth>it's pointless because ships don't pay attention to such stuff
11:43<andythenorth>but the eye candy aspect would be good
11:44<JVassie>also planetmaker, your de-commisioned is same as early retirement property, righT?
11:44<Eddi|nichZuHause>well, as soon as the ship would enter the state machine of the traffic-object, it could be forced to stop
11:44<@planetmaker>JVassie: I'd not bet on that. And I'm actually perfectly willing to make some game play adjustments on the availability years
11:45<JVassie>DBSet does for balancing afaik
11:45<JVassie>and no worries
11:45<@planetmaker>better good game play and not 100% correct date than 100% correct date and... bad gameplay
11:45<@planetmaker>those years are just for seeing what is there. It then will need manual translation into stats
11:45<andythenorth>Eddi|nichZuHause: that would be quite awesome :)
11:45<@planetmaker>same with the length which did not properly copy
11:45<Eddi|nichZuHause>JVassie: that's an implementation detail, worry about that later
11:46<JVassie>yup Eddi :)
11:46<JVassie>is anonymous user you btw?
11:46<@planetmaker>I'd first decide on the engines based on the real stats. And then I'd translate that to ingame properties
11:47<@planetmaker>as a 2nd step when engines are decided upon
11:48<Eddi|nichZuHause>i'm not any anonymous user
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11:48<JVassie>Ah, thought you were looking at the googledoc too
11:49<JVassie>all importnat properties are visible without scrolling
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11:52<@planetmaker>I added the sections on long-distance and commuter trains as separate actually on purpose ;-)
11:53<@planetmaker>but maybe with a usage column it's better. dunno
11:53<JVassie>columns are better I think
11:53<JVassie>then we can sort by column etc
11:54<JVassie>keeps it in a tidier format IMO
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12:14<Eddi|nichZuHause>"Usage" should be fine: values: "P"[assagiere], "S"[chnellzug], "G"[üterzug], "R"[angieren]
12:14<Eddi|nichZuHause>(afair those are roughly the categorizations of the bavarian state railway)
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12:15<Eddi|nichZuHause>"P"[ersonenzug] actually
12:16<Eddi|nichZuHause>this or similar categorizations you find across all state railways
12:16<Eddi|nichZuHause>sometimes "T"[enderlok] instead of "R"
12:17<@planetmaker>Eddi|nichZuHause: do we need actually engines categorized as "Rangieren"?
12:17<JVassie>we dont need to germanise every word, surely? :D
12:17<Eddi|nichZuHause>planetmaker: name may vary.
12:17<@planetmaker>I don't mean the name... rather: what would it be used for ingame?
12:17<@planetmaker>there are no shunting yards
12:17<Eddi|nichZuHause>planetmaker: short distance feeder service
12:18<Eddi|nichZuHause>JVassie: something completely different :p
12:19<JVassie>What does it mean, i meant? :p
12:19<@planetmaker>kettle old style or something
12:19<@planetmaker>dunno the word
12:19<@planetmaker>whatever is used for steam
12:19<Eddi|nichZuHause>"Kessel" is where the water is heated, in the steam engine
12:20<JVassie>just wanderign why the BR01 has it and none of the others
12:20<Eddi|nichZuHause>"Alt" is "old", and "Bau" is "construction"
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12:21<Eddi|nichZuHause>JVassie: opposed to "Reko" (many series of the BR01 and BR03 had large reconstructions after the world war, especially in east germany)
12:21<Eddi|nichZuHause>BR 44 as well, i think
12:22<Eddi|nichZuHause>there's a BR 01 (original version), BR 01.10 (improved version before WWII), and BR 01.5 (reconstructed version after WWII)
12:22<Eddi|nichZuHause>BR 03 is the "little sister" of the BR 01, almost identical but lower axle weight
12:25<Eddi|nichZuHause>the BR 01.10 had streamlining and was more powerful than the BR 01
12:25<Eddi|nichZuHause>the BR 01.5 had no streamlining, but was fitted for oil firing instead of coal firing
12:26<Eddi|nichZuHause>planetmaker: "Rangieren" shouldn't be taken literally
12:27<@planetmaker>Eddi|nichZuHause: please amend / edit the table
12:27<Eddi|nichZuHause>planetmaker: in terms of DBSetXL, the BR 92 and BR 75 would be in the "R" category, the BR 38 in the "P" category
12:28<Eddi|nichZuHause>actually.. i need to get this work finished first...
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12:44<JVassie>right lads
12:45<JVassie>buh bai for now
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13:03<@Terkhen>it seems that the spain set used sprites from the dutch set, and I can't be sure which ones are from which train set :/
13:04<@planetmaker>oh joy
13:04<Rubidium>oh noes... they're invading again?
13:04<Rubidium>but which Dutch trains run in Spain as well?
13:05<@planetmaker>sure. what did you think?
13:05-!-Juo [] has quit [Quit: Juo]
13:05<@Terkhen> <--- this one for example
13:08<Rubidium>oh, so it is roughly the same train in Spain as well
13:08<Rubidium>but then, I don't really care ;)
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13:19<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
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13:58<frosch123> <- general notice: use the ttwiki template for links from newgrf-specs to tt-wiki
13:59<@Terkhen>ok :)
14:01<core>Anyone familiar with ap+ online? :)
14:02<core>or running a unix dedicated server in general
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14:07<@Terkhen>hi core
14:07<core>hello Terkhen
14:08<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
14:09<frosch123>Terkhen: planetmaker: how about renaming the page "Action0Stations" to "Action0/Stations", "VarAction2Vehicles" to "VariationalAction2/Vehicles", ... same for all features?
14:10<frosch123>that way they link back to the parent page which contains the actual syntax
14:10<frosch123>of the action
14:11<@planetmaker>how do they then automatically link back? That naming scheme makes that sure?
14:11<frosch123>"Action0Genera" -> "Action0/Vehicles", "Action0Trains" -> "Action0/Vehicles/Trains"
14:11<frosch123>there will be an link at the top of the page
14:11<@planetmaker>that's a general mediawiki feature then for names of that type?
14:11<frosch123>something like "Action0 < Vehicles <"
14:12<frosch123>planetmaker: at least i am used to that behaviour
14:12<@planetmaker>:-) well, sure, if it works, then that'll be nice
14:12<@orudge>just leave redirects in place for the old pages :)
14:12<@orudge>although that should happen automatically
14:12<@planetmaker>did for me. yes
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14:13<frosch123> <- example
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14:15<frosch123>$wgNamespacesWithSubpages <- hmm, maybe it needs activation by orudge
14:15*orudge can do so
14:15<frosch123>please :)
14:16<@orudge>try now
14:19<frosch123>works :)
14:32<@planetmaker>frosch123: do you have the pywikibot also running? It could probably help in the renaming...
14:33<@planetmaker>svn co
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14:38<frosch123>maybe i should give it a try, though it will likely take longer than doing it :)
14:42<@planetmaker>thus it basically needs a list of pages which need renaming
14:42<@planetmaker>and it's done then
14:42*orudge will want to do a lot of that on the main wiki eventually
14:43<@planetmaker>python -pairs:filename
14:43<@planetmaker>python -pt:0 -pairs:filename
14:43<@planetmaker>or it takes ages
14:43<frosch123>do i need a bot account?
14:44<@orudge>Ideally, yes
14:45<frosch123>that means, register "fbot" on tt-forums?
14:45<@orudge>and I can then give it the bot flag
14:46<@planetmaker>frosch123: it also works without. But you can't unthrottle it, thus will have some delays
14:46<@planetmaker>And bot edits are hidden by default from the recent changes page
14:47<@Terkhen>planetmaker: the explanation about TownZones is "done", right?
14:47<frosch123>orudge: frosch-bot
14:48<@planetmaker>Terkhen: I think so, yes. I guess I forgot to mark it as such
14:48<@Terkhen>I'll do it
14:48<@orudge>frosch123: please log into the wiki with it
14:48<@orudge>(or you log on with that username)
14:48<@orudge>as I can't update the rights until it exists on the wiki :)
14:49<@orudge>Thanks, it's now in the bot group
14:55<core>aircraft are operpowered right?
14:56<@Terkhen>default aircrafts are overpowered as moneymakers, not so much when you try to cover lines with a lot of traffic with them
14:57<core>what would you recommend as a good fix, such as a multiplier in basecosts?
14:58<@Yexo>you could try the av8 newgrf
15:04<frosch123>planetmaker: i assume you already have a working family file
15:04<@planetmaker>oh, yes, right
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15:06<@planetmaker>no problem :-)
15:06<@planetmaker>I should have linked you straight away, sorry
15:07<Heidistein>hello, is it known that rev r22594 had a bug in creating stations?
15:07<@planetmaker>in what way?
15:07<@planetmaker>and hello :-)
15:07<Heidistein>planetmaker, hey:) coredumps.
15:07<Heidistein>It draws the window and dumps
15:08<Heidistein>I have a gdb stacktrace et al
15:08<@planetmaker>Heidistein: then please open a bug report with all crash files at our bug tracker. And if you have the stack trace, the better :-)
15:09<Heidistein> /me salutes, yes sir, wil do. Wasn't sure if reporting against svn was valid
15:09<@Yexo>it sure is
15:09<@planetmaker>of course it's valid :-)
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15:09<@planetmaker>that's the place where things are changed and where they get fixed
15:09<Heidistein>yes, i got that ;-)
15:10<@planetmaker>that's why the bug tracker has a version field :-P
15:10<Heidistein>kk, i will file a bugreport now, and then revert couple 'o days.
15:10<Heidistein>hmmm, you could've guessed i havent even bin there yet...
15:10<@planetmaker>if you know which nightly (or revision) works and which not... that's also possibly interesting info?
15:11<@planetmaker>how do you manage to crash it? Anything special to do?
15:11<Heidistein>yes, i do. recently there was a change in station{something}.cpp, which broke it
15:11<@planetmaker>well... but it works for me [TM]
15:11<@Yexo>planetmaker: not with newgrf stations
15:11<Heidistein>no, its quite easy, opening the maglev stationbuild thingie
15:12<Heidistein>and, indied as Yexo sais, with some newgrf's
15:12<@planetmaker>right... as soon as I add station newgrfs
15:14<Heidistein>you.,... are able to reproduce?
15:15<@planetmaker>hm... can that be really broken for 4 days without anyone noticing?
15:15<Heidistein>sorry... I have bin building a scenario and not playing....
15:16<@Terkhen>no nightlies? :P
15:16<@Terkhen>which revision is the first one affected? compilation on windows is slow, but I suspect my changes
15:16<@Yexo>which is?
15:17<@planetmaker>Heidistein: no need for you to apologise... :-) But that *noone* ... is "interesting"
15:17<@Yexo>Terkhen: r22592 works fine, so it's one of my changes
15:17<Heidistein>Darn Terkhen, that is a good question, lemme find out
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15:17<Heidistein>planetmaker, i forgot the ';-)'
15:17<Eddi|nichZuHause>my crystal ball says it's the "don't show accepted" stuff
15:18<@Terkhen>hmmm... but r22593 looks harmless
15:18<@Yexo>but that one causes it
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15:18<@Terkhen>strange :)
15:18<Eddi|nichZuHause>@commit 22593
15:18<@DorpsGek>Eddi|nichZuHause: Commit by yexo :: r22593 trunk/src/station_gui.cpp (2011-06-16 09:46:24 UTC)
15:18<@DorpsGek>Eddi|nichZuHause: -Fix [FS#4647]: don't show cargo accepted/produced in the new station window when no tiles are selected (mouse hovering a window or toolbar)
15:19<Heidistein>i suspect that one
15:20<Heidistein>in: int DrawStationCoverageAreaText(
15:20<Heidistein>- if (tile < MapSize()) {
15:20<Heidistein>+ if (_thd.drawstyle == HT_RECT && tile < MapSize()) {
15:20<@Terkhen> <--- stacktrace from MSVC
15:22<Heidistein>ok, just tested, I reverted that diff i pasted and that wont crash
15:22<@planetmaker>^ gcc here
15:23<@orudge>planetmaker: any chance you could run your table-fixing script on ECSTVTCKarlstein and ECSTVTCNeuSchwansteinCastle on the main TT wiki, if you're not too busy? :)
15:26<Zuu>accepted/produced in the new station window <--- did the station window get an update recently?
15:26<Zuu>(last nightly fails on my mirror)
15:27<Zuu>(the cz mirror)
15:28<@Yexo>there are no new nightlies the last few days
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15:29<frosch123>planetmaker: thanks, worked well
15:31<@planetmaker>sweet :-)
15:31<@planetmaker>orudge: done
15:31<@orudge>Thanks :)
15:31<@planetmaker>ah... no nightlies... right
15:31<@planetmaker>there was *something* ;-)
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15:34<Heidistein>damnit! i dont get it, as far as i see '_thd.drawstyle == HT_RECT' should be true
15:34<@Yexo>Heidistein: that's unrelated to the error
15:34<@Yexo>not completely, but it doesn't crash there
15:35<Heidistein>uh, well, oh..
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15:36<Eddi|nichZuHause>i had it in my guts that this commit would cause trouble right when i read it
15:37<Heidistein>then i am realy missing it. My guess was that it crashes if it wont enter that if-block
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15:42*Eddi|nichZuHause ->home()
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16:06<core>Anyone familiar with ap+ online? :)
16:07<+michi_cc>frosch123: Wouldn't it make more sense to configure appropriate interwiki links for the various related wikis instead of using some template stuff?
16:10<frosch123>did not know that, might be useful
16:11<+michi_cc>orudge: With interwiki links can be configured without DB hacking.
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16:19<@planetmaker>core: you keep asking meta questions. Surely *someone* is familiar with it. But... so what? What then?
16:19<@planetmaker>@topic get -3
16:19<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
16:20<@planetmaker>unless you ask a meaningful question, I doubt you'll get an answer you'll find useful
16:21<andythenorth>am I missing the 'filter' in multiplayer join server window?
16:21<@planetmaker>what filter, andythenorth ?
16:21<@planetmaker>or generally one?
16:21<andythenorth>so there isn't one?
16:21<@planetmaker>for server name or <whatever>
16:21<andythenorth>like text string or such
16:21<@planetmaker>I guess there might be none.
16:21<andythenorth>I guess too
16:22<Zuu>Hmm, having multiple (but different) definitions of the same Enum is clearly not very useful :-)
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16:23<@SmatZ>such code is undefined, iirc
16:23<@SmatZ>I think even invalid
16:23<@planetmaker>like define + - ? ;-)
16:24<@SmatZ>just today I had a thought about #define 1 0
16:24<@SmatZ>placed somewhere in a system header
16:24<@SmatZ>how people would be confused :)
16:25<@planetmaker>that comes close to
16:25<Zuu>SmatZ: One of them had a NONE/INVALID item at the beginning while the other one didn't :-)
16:25<@planetmaker>(I know, oooold)
16:26<@SmatZ>hmm #define 1 0 is illegal :(
16:26<@SmatZ>planetmaker: :-D
16:27<@SmatZ>planetmaker: that's beautiful :)
16:27<@SmatZ>Zuu: hehe :)
16:27<@Terkhen>#define PI 3
16:27<@SmatZ>nooooo :)
16:28<@SmatZ>I used to #define PI (atan(1) * 4) ...
16:28<@SmatZ>but then I found out the compiler won't do the math in compile time...
16:30<@SmatZ>hmm now gcc does optimise that
16:30<@SmatZ>even with -O0
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16:30<Zuu>planetmaker: Lol what a huge amount of comments :-)
16:30<@planetmaker>I didn't even look at those :-P
16:30<@SmatZ>3.3.6 won't, 3.4.6 does the compile time path
16:32<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r22595 /trunk/src/station_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4560] (r22593): build railstation gui was broken with newgrf stations
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16:56<core>if i get the 2cc trainset do i need NuTracks?
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16:59<@Yexo>afaik know it's optional
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17:06<@Terkhen>yes, it's optional
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17:14<core>thank you
17:15<core>I added 2cc which should give engines from 1836 or something onwards but cannot biuld track that early
17:17<@Yexo>you should be able to build track as soon as the first engine is available
17:17<core>Le Belge Belgium 1835
17:17<core>ill try 1850
17:18<@Yexo>core: after stating a game, open the train list and click "available trains'
17:18<@Yexo>if there is a train there but you can't build track, it's a bug in openttd
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17:18<@Yexo>if there isn't a train in that list, it's not provided by any newgrf
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17:34<@Terkhen>good night
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17:40<Eddi|zuHause>what happened today while i was away...
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>so much talk, buffer isn't even long enough
17:41<@Alberth>give it a few KB extra :)
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17:43<Eddi|zuHause>it's measured in lines, i believe
17:46<Zuu>Maybe this is old, but I found out there was a long article/interview about ludde in a Swedish magazine (Filter). Unfortutately the article is in swedish.
17:47<__ln__>Everybody knows Swedish.
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17:52<Zuu>I usually don't read paper magazines but a coworker sent me this article. :-) It seems to be the june/july 2011 issue.
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17:58<Zuu>__ln__: Is that why (some) people in Finland think that Swedish language education shouldn't be mandatory anymore?
17:59<Zuu>... because everybody already knows it :-)
18:00<@Alberth>chefspeak is very readable :)
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18:07<Zuu>Never heard about chefspeak but found it explained on wikipedia :-)
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18:10<@planetmaker>good night
18:11<Zuu>night planetmaker
18:11<JVassie>nn planetmaker
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18:53<Zuu>Good night
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>breaking news: the federal trojan^W^W electronic identification application for linux was released. size: 350MB
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>(only for debian/ubuntu and firefox/iceweasel)
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21:31<core>when a server is set to autoclean companies what does that mean, any that are inactive?
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---Logclosed Sat Jun 18 00:00:58 2011