| --- | Log | opened Sat Jun 18 00:00:58 2011 |
| 00:56 | -!- | Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7461B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 00:56 | -!- | Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B757A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd |
| 00:59 | -!- | supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd |
| 01:07 | -!- | yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd |
| 01:08 | -!- | yorick is now known as Guest5062 |
| 01:09 | -!- | Guest2996 [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 01:48 | -!- | supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] |
| 02:07 | -!- | KouDy1 [~KouDy@ip-89-176-97-92.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd |
| 02:08 | -!- | KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-97-92.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 02:20 | -!- | Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd |
| 02:26 | -!- | andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd |
| 02:31 | -!- | Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd |
| 02:38 | -!- | perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] |
| 02:38 | <andythenorth> | bonjour |
| 02:47 | -!- | Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe64de00-55.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] |
| 02:48 | -!- | Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd |
| 02:48 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ |
| 02:54 | -!- | perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd |
| 03:02 | -!- | George|2 [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd |
| 03:02 | -!- | George [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 03:03 | -!- | KouDy1 [~KouDy@ip-89-176-97-92.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] |
| 03:13 | -!- | bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] |
| 03:16 | -!- | Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd |
| 03:17 | <@planetmaker> | moin |
| 03:17 | <Zuu> | Hello planetmaker |
| 03:18 | <@planetmaker> | hi Zuu :-) |
| 03:18 | <Zuu> | and hello everyone else :-) |
| 03:19 | <@planetmaker> | core: http://wiki.openttd.org/Autoclean_companies and http://wiki.openttd.org/Openttd.cfg |
| 03:25 | -!- | Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-012-052.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd |
| 03:34 | -!- | Progman [~progman@p57A1BD6B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd |
| 03:41 | -!- | Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd |
| 03:45 | -!- | fazol [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd |
| 03:45 | -!- | fazol [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [] |
| 03:48 | -!- | amkoroew [~matze@p5B1079F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd |
| 04:01 | <@Terkhen> | good morning |
| 04:04 | -!- | frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fc4f8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd |
| 04:05 | -!- | perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] |
| 04:06 | -!- | DDR [~DDR@66.183.113.68] has quit [Quit: In democracy it's your vote that counts; In feudalism it's your count that votes. - Mogens Jallberg] |
| 04:14 | -!- | DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd |
| 04:18 | -!- | pugi [~pugi@p4FCC33E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd |
| 04:20 | -!- | amkoroew [~matze@p5B1079F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 04:25 | -!- | Wolf01 [~wolf01@host109-162-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd |
| 04:30 | -!- | Pixa [~Pixa@85.210.67.111] has joined #openttd |
| 04:33 | <Wolf01> | morning |
| 04:34 | <@Alberth> | morning |
| 04:36 | -!- | sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd |
| 04:50 | -!- | goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-255-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd |
| 04:51 | * | andythenorth has some chips |
| 04:52 | * | andythenorth ventures into new newgrf wiki for help |
| 04:52 | <andythenorth> | woah |
| 04:52 | <andythenorth> | sea of blue links :) |
| 04:52 | <andythenorth> | in this page |
| 04:52 | <andythenorth> | sorting tables by the action type is not the most usable |
| 04:52 | <andythenorth> | http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Main_Page |
| 04:52 | <andythenorth> | sorting alphabetically would be better |
| 04:53 | <andythenorth> | left-right, row by row |
| 04:54 | * | Terkhen agrees |
| 04:54 | <@Terkhen> | but having a table is a big improvement over the old sorting |
| 04:54 | <@Terkhen> | looks nice :) |
| 04:58 | -!- | Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-012-052.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] |
| 04:59 | -!- | Amis [~Amis@5400C2F3.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #openttd |
| 05:03 | <andythenorth> | what happens if I remove some tiles from CHIPS? |
| 05:03 | <andythenorth> | they have been disabled in menus for at least one release |
| 05:04 | <andythenorth> | maybe two |
| 05:04 | <@planetmaker> | don't. Just make them unavailable |
| 05:04 | <@planetmaker> | and keep them there |
| 05:04 | <andythenorth> | how to do that? |
| 05:04 | <@planetmaker> | climate availability = 0 |
| 05:04 | <@planetmaker> | or similar |
| 05:05 | <@planetmaker> | callback for availability years = < 0 or so |
| 05:05 | <andythenorth> | I am not seeing that in spec |
| 05:06 | <andythenorth> | I have cb13 in use already |
| 05:06 | <andythenorth> | but it's unacceptable |
| 05:07 | <andythenorth> | Yexo: any suggestions? ^ |
| 05:09 | <@Yexo> | planetmaker: that's not possible |
| 05:09 | <@Yexo> | andythenorth: just overwrite them with new tiles |
| 05:09 | <@Yexo> | as long as the new tiles have the same (track / non-track) status there is no problem |
| 05:09 | <@planetmaker> | hm, not possible? :-( |
| 05:10 | <@Yexo> | planetmaker: the only way you can disable station tiles is by cb13, which shows them greyed out in the menu |
| 05:10 | <@planetmaker> | uh... |
| 05:10 | <@planetmaker> | good to know |
| 05:10 | <@planetmaker> | and interesting how transfering knowledge fails again and again in the newgrf domain ;-) |
| 05:11 | <@Yexo> | hmm? |
| 05:12 | <@planetmaker> | the climate availability trick to make something unavailable |
| 05:12 | <andythenorth> | ok so when I add some new tiles, reuse those IDs |
| 05:12 | <andythenorth> | until then, leave them |
| 05:16 | * | andythenorth bbl |
| 05:16 | -!- | andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] |
| 05:19 | <frosch123> | i wondered about sorting them alphabetically, but i also wanted to keep the grouping of vehicles |
| 05:19 | <frosch123> | so, no idea :) |
| 05:19 | <frosch123> | now they are ordered by id |
| 05:20 | <@planetmaker> | that's ok, albeit just ok. But we won't get many more IDs quickly, so... |
| 05:21 | <frosch123> | luckily terkhen assigned a number to towns, else i would not have known where to put them :p |
| 05:21 | <@Terkhen> | :) |
| 05:25 | <Zuu> | Hmm, regarding sorting of the table, if people want to find something specific, they can use search in their web browser? |
| 05:26 | <frosch123> | someone know how to draw a "color gradient" in gimp (specifically in a layer mask) |
| 05:26 | <Zuu> | It's like 7 years ago or so that Firefox/bird/.. introduced the search bar, and even before that, you could search in web sites.. :-) |
| 05:27 | <Zuu> | frosch123: Use the gradient tool? |
| 05:27 | <frosch123> | you mean "search the gradient tool"? |
| 05:28 | <Zuu> | IIRC there is a gradient tool in GIMP. |
| 05:29 | <frosch123> | oh, it is in the main tool palette, not in the menu :) |
| 05:29 | <Zuu> | works fine here (also in the layer mask) |
| 05:32 | -!- | Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe64de00-55.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd |
| 05:35 | -!- | k^^ [~k^^@users192.kollegienet.dk] has joined #openttd |
| 05:38 | -!- | KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-97-92.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd |
| 05:52 | <frosch123> | http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=952518#p952518 <- yay, me doing arts :p |
| 05:55 | <@planetmaker> | not bad :-) |
| 05:55 | <@planetmaker> | frosch123: could you fade the upper white bounding boxes a bit into gray? |
| 05:55 | <@planetmaker> | there where the text is |
| 05:55 | <@planetmaker> | it's otherwise a bit too contrasty background for text |
| 05:57 | -!- | andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd |
| 05:59 | -!- | Juo [~Juo@cpc11-acto2-2-0-cust244.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd |
| 05:59 | <frosch123> | might try later to tweak the layers masks more |
| 06:00 | -!- | MrSieb [~01Mr@113.140.37.155] has joined #openttd |
| 06:00 | -!- | Juo [~Juo@cpc11-acto2-2-0-cust244.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] |
| 06:07 | -!- | perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd |
| 06:13 | -!- | douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-31-236.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd |
| 06:19 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: added a white blur |
| 06:21 | <@planetmaker> | hm... IMHO that doesn't address the too contrasty background where the text is above the boundboxes |
| 06:21 | <@planetmaker> | and the text also looks IMHO nicer w/o white blur |
| 06:22 | <@planetmaker> | sorry, just my personal taste :-) |
| 06:22 | -!- | JVassie [569e818b@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd |
| 06:22 | <frosch123> | i prefer it with blue :) |
| 06:22 | <JVassie> | huzzah! |
| 06:22 | <JVassie> | hi planetmaker |
| 06:23 | <@planetmaker> | hi JVassie |
| 06:23 | <@planetmaker> | frosch123: with blue? |
| 06:23 | <Zuu> | frosch123: Nice idea and well carried out! |
| 06:23 | <JVassie> | i added a few more things to the table |
| 06:23 | <frosch123> | s/blue/blur/ |
| 06:26 | <@planetmaker> | ah :-) |
| 06:26 | <@planetmaker> | JVassie: yes, I saw that, nice :-) |
| 06:27 | <JVassie> | so will we be sticking thoroughly to 1 new loco per each of the 4 classes per 10 years? |
| 06:28 | -!- | ashledombos [~ashledomb@ris91-2-82-227-26-30.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 06:29 | -!- | ashledombos [~ashledomb@ris91-2-82-227-26-30.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd |
| 06:29 | <@planetmaker> | I'd not make it a fixed rule. And I'm not sure about 10 years eing the best guideline |
| 06:30 | <@planetmaker> | but as a working guide... feasible :-) |
| 06:30 | <@Alberth> | perhaps say something about #available engines instead? |
| 06:30 | <@planetmaker> | yes, that's more important |
| 06:31 | <@planetmaker> | not more than a dozen concurrent engines ;-) |
| 06:31 | <JVassie> | :p |
| 06:31 | <@planetmaker> | rather less |
| 06:31 | <JVassie> | for those who play without persistant engines.. |
| 06:31 | -!- | Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has joined #openttd |
| 06:31 | <@planetmaker> | also for those who do ;-) |
| 06:31 | <@Yexo> | that makes no sense |
| 06:32 | <@Yexo> | that would limit the set to 12 engines total |
| 06:32 | <@planetmaker> | refits? |
| 06:32 | <JVassie> | i play with persistant engines :p |
| 06:32 | <@planetmaker> | so do I |
| 06:32 | <JVassie> | brb |
| 06:32 | <@planetmaker> | but probably refits are a bad choice there, too |
| 06:32 | <@Yexo> | planetmaker: even the default set has more than 12 different engines, not? |
| 06:33 | <@planetmaker> | yes |
| 06:33 | <frosch123> | depends on climate |
| 06:33 | <frosch123> | i don't think toyland has 12 |
| 06:33 | <@planetmaker> | but my feeling is that any nice train set should not provide many more |
| 06:33 | <@planetmaker> | or at least have the option to not provide many more |
| 06:34 | <@Yexo> | as long as there are not too many concurrently available it doesn't matter imo |
| 06:34 | <@Yexo> | limiting the total amount of engines because some players play with persistent engines is not a good idea |
| 06:34 | <@planetmaker> | many do |
| 06:34 | <@Yexo> | if you play with that one you should expect a large number of engines |
| 06:34 | * | Alberth agrees with frosch123 |
| 06:36 | <@planetmaker> | I guess you might have a point there |
| 06:36 | <@Alberth> | Yexo: I find that a huge disadvantage of many vehicle sets |
| 06:37 | <@Yexo> | Alberth: a large number of different engines? |
| 06:37 | <@Alberth> | yes, too many not-so-interesting choices |
| 06:37 | <@Yexo> | but do you play with persistent engines on or off? |
| 06:37 | <andythenorth> | mostly there's one big winningest engine, and a smaller one |
| 06:37 | <@Alberth> | off |
| 06:37 | <frosch123> | Alberth: enable breakdowns |
| 06:37 | <@Alberth> | frosch123: I have |
| 06:37 | <@Yexo> | Alberth: that's exactly my point |
| 06:37 | <@planetmaker> | the problem for me is the way too fast time progression. Thus I'll never enjoy earlier engines, if I don't use persistent engines |
| 06:38 | <frosch123> | ok :) |
| 06:38 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: I agree |
| 06:38 | <andythenorth> | I want a shorter total game span in years |
| 06:38 | <andythenorth> | but the same play time |
| 06:38 | <JVassie> | is there increased daylength in trunk? |
| 06:38 | <@Yexo> | there shouldn't be too many concurrently available engines, the total number of engines doesn't matter as long as they're not all available at the same time |
| 06:38 | <andythenorth> | trying to backdate newgrfs to 1830 or so is tmwftlb |
| 06:38 | <andythenorth> | better start around 1880 |
| 06:38 | <andythenorth> | I've played a lot now with sets that start early |
| 06:38 | <@Yexo> | JVassie: no |
| 06:38 | <JVassie> | 1881 is our start date currently |
| 06:39 | <JVassie> | a shame |
| 06:39 | <JVassie> | i wrote a timeline guide to the dbsetxl |
| 06:39 | <@Alberth> | Yexo: oh, I misread you, I thought you were talking about non-persistent engines, sorry for the confusion |
| 06:39 | <@Yexo> | planetmaker: but if fast time progression is the problem, just putting less engines in a newgrf set doesn't solve it in any way |
| 06:39 | <JVassie> | there is just soooo much that happens |
| 06:39 | <JVassie> | its next to impossible without daylength and/or build with pause |
| 06:39 | <@Yexo> | as you'll miss out on the early houses too for example |
| 06:39 | <andythenorth> | with sets that start early, the game goes like this: wait about 50 years to make any money with slow engines, then loads of engines appear in 1930 :P |
| 06:39 | <@Yexo> | or early industries, in case of sets like firs |
| 06:39 | <@planetmaker> | Yexo: it solves in it in so-far as I can then use persistent engines and make my own time progression |
| 06:40 | <JVassie> | indeed |
| 06:40 | <andythenorth> | FIRS early-industry support is poor, and I'm not minded to improve it |
| 06:40 | <@Alberth> | JVassie: and you still don't have time to enjoy watching your stuff in action :) |
| 06:40 | <JVassie> | only to a point though planetmaker |
| 06:40 | <andythenorth> | gameplay with early-industry is not fun |
| 06:40 | <JVassie> | Alberth: yup :( |
| 06:40 | <JVassie> | did anyone read the timeline? :p |
| 06:40 | * | planetmaker watches stuff usually a lot. Thus... Progression even slows down the larger my network gets ;-) |
| 06:41 | <@Yexo> | planetmaker: I do the same (that is, when I play :P) |
| 06:41 | <@planetmaker> | :-D |
| 06:41 | <@Yexo> | however the proper fix for that would be to introduce a daylength patch of some sort |
| 06:41 | <@planetmaker> | of course :-) |
| 06:41 | <@planetmaker> | I won't argue there |
| 06:42 | <JVassie> | whats stopping daylength getting into trunk? |
| 06:42 | <@planetmaker> | Well, I guess this set could have a parameter like "Engines: minimal, normal, all" |
| 06:42 | <JVassie> | :p |
| 06:42 | <frosch123> | JVassie: the patches only want to slow down vehicle introduction, but they change everything thus messing everything up |
| 06:42 | <JVassie> | indeed |
| 06:42 | <JVassie> | hmm |
| 06:43 | <JVassie> | well something increasing the number of ticks per game day |
| 06:43 | <@planetmaker> | that's the problem |
| 06:43 | <@Yexo> | that already messes with industry production for example |
| 06:43 | <frosch123> | i.e. they try to show a single date in the statusbar and still introduce the same engine in 1950 and 1960 |
| 06:43 | <frosch123> | but that approach breaks everything |
| 06:43 | <JVassie> | ah |
| 06:43 | <JVassie> | lame |
| 06:43 | <JVassie> | :( |
| 06:43 | <JVassie> | easis |
| 06:43 | <frosch123> | instead there should be an economy-date, and a technology-date |
| 06:44 | <@planetmaker> | if it were that simple, it'd be done ;-) |
| 06:44 | <andythenorth> | what happened to 'the daylength patch that might actually work"? |
| 06:44 | <andythenorth> | there was one |
| 06:44 | <andythenorth> | just fake the displayed date :P |
| 06:44 | <JVassie> | easiest solution is to get a couple of mates to play with you, get stuff done 3 times as fast :p |
| 06:44 | <@Yexo> | but that means even more time spend looking at the map :) |
| 06:44 | <JVassie> | within 1 company i meant |
| 06:44 | <andythenorth> | 1 current month = 1 week |
| 06:44 | <@planetmaker> | :-D @ Yexo |
| 06:45 | <JVassie> | andythenorth: what time scales? |
| 06:45 | <andythenorth> | change some strings from 'production this month' to 'production this week' |
| 06:45 | <Zuu> | Hmm, what about extending the year with more months? |
| 06:45 | <JVassie> | .. |
| 06:45 | <andythenorth> | don't go mental abstracting it all, just enforce one alternative |
| 06:45 | <JVassie> | actual months? |
| 06:45 | <Zuu> | Eg month #13, #14, #15 ... |
| 06:45 | <andythenorth> | players who want to turn up and specify that 1 month should take like, 3 hours 22 seconds on their very specific PC |
| 06:45 | <andythenorth> | are not people I want to spend time with |
| 06:46 | <Zuu> | so each year have more days, rather than slowing down the days. |
| 06:46 | <JVassie> | :p |
| 06:46 | <JVassie> | thats not a bad idea Zuu |
| 06:46 | <@planetmaker> | not really |
| 06:46 | <andythenorth> | nearly all the newgrf code I've seen looks at date, not even sure there's much that can get at ticks |
| 06:46 | <frosch123> | Zuu: dates are available as years/month/day, and in days since whenever |
| 06:46 | <@Yexo> | Zuu: that still means all yearly statistics are wrong |
| 06:46 | <@planetmaker> | just add more months to the year is a solution |
| 06:46 | <@planetmaker> | in a way |
| 06:46 | <@planetmaker> | but... |
| 06:46 | <@planetmaker> | it has issues, too |
| 06:46 | <JVassie> | mmm |
| 06:46 | <@planetmaker> | thus every solution so far had issues |
| 06:46 | <JVassie> | :p |
| 06:47 | <JVassie> | another solution |
| 06:47 | <@planetmaker> | newgrfs mess up things |
| 06:47 | <JVassie> | rewrite openttd from the ground up.. |
| 06:47 | <JVassie> | but yeah |
| 06:47 | <andythenorth> | what are the issues with my idea? |
| 06:47 | <JVassie> | issues with that too :p |
| 06:47 | <andythenorth> | (which I think was also someone else's idea) |
| 06:47 | <andythenorth> | basically game date progression / 4 |
| 06:47 | <JVassie> | andythenorth: so change text of a month to a week? |
| 06:47 | <andythenorth> | and all interfaces to dates |
| 06:47 | <JVassie> | problem is it only give you option of x1 or x1/4 |
| 06:48 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: the problem is not the gui |
| 06:48 | <@Yexo> | andythenorth: same problems as all other ideas so far |
| 06:48 | <frosch123> | but what date to report to newgrfs where |
| 06:48 | <frosch123> | i.e. vehicle introduction date should be faked, vehicle date for visulisation as well, but vehicle aging not |
| 06:49 | <JVassie> | mmm |
| 06:49 | <JVassie> | what things actually use ticks already? |
| 06:49 | <frosch123> | industry availability and visual appearance should use a technology-date, but industry producton needs to use an ecnomy-date |
| 06:49 | <Zuu> | Hmm, so the ticks need to get slower. Which means vehicles will move longer between each tick => all sorts of funny problems with car follwing, collision detection etc :-) |
| 06:50 | <andythenorth> | why shouldn't vehicle aging be faked? |
| 06:50 | <@planetmaker> | as it affects breakdowns |
| 06:50 | <frosch123> | Zuu: don't change the relation between vehicle movement and production |
| 06:50 | <@planetmaker> | and depot visits etc |
| 06:50 | <frosch123> | that seems to break most |
| 06:50 | <JVassie> | breakdowns off is the best setting :p |
| 06:50 | <Zuu> | Okay, so simple just slow everything down? |
| 06:51 | <Zuu> | Have eg. 5 GUI-only "ticks" per each game-tick? |
| 06:51 | <frosch123> | JVassie: breakdowns off removes a main criterion for vehicle selection and makes all engines the same |
| 06:51 | <Zuu> | DoCommands get scheduled for next game-tick.. |
| 06:51 | <JVassie> | frosch123: only for those who arent too fussed about aiming for realism |
| 06:52 | <JVassie> | I realise the game is aimed at fun more than realism |
| 06:52 | <JVassie> | but |
| 06:52 | <@planetmaker> | Zuu: slowing down movement and animation is not the solution |
| 06:52 | <@planetmaker> | slowing vehicles to a crawl would feel very weired like a lag |
| 06:52 | <JVassie> | planetmaker: he didnt mean slowing it down |
| 06:52 | <JVassie> | i dint think |
| 06:52 | <JVassie> | *dont |
| 06:52 | <JVassie> | just allow 5 visual ticks for every game tick |
| 06:52 | <@planetmaker> | but vehicle movement is not visuals. |
| 06:53 | <JVassie> | so after 5 visual ticks, the game has an internal tick |
| 06:53 | <JVassie> | ah |
| 06:53 | <@planetmaker> | a vehicle moves. may arrrive. load, unload, whatever |
| 06:53 | <@planetmaker> | crash |
| 06:53 | <@planetmaker> | be sold, be bought,... :-) |
| 06:54 | <@planetmaker> | and if vehicles move much more during a year: yearly running costs: what hapens to them? Stay the same? Increase? |
| 06:54 | <JVassie> | hmm |
| 06:54 | <JVassie> | divide by 5 |
| 06:55 | <JVassie> | planetmaker: a thought |
| 06:55 | <JVassie> | our 1 vehicle per class every 10 years as a rough guide |
| 06:55 | <JVassie> | doesnt take into account steam/diesel and electric |
| 06:56 | * | andythenorth solves daylength |
| 06:56 | <andythenorth> | do it in newgrf |
| 06:56 | <JVassie> | mmm |
| 06:56 | <@Yexo> | planetmaker: running costs are not really yearly, only the display of them is |
| 06:57 | <JVassie> | could do andythenorth |
| 06:57 | <@Yexo> | actually they're updated every x ticks |
| 06:57 | <JVassie> | would need a fake date to go with it though |
| 06:57 | <JVassie> | just a visual fake date |
| 06:58 | <@planetmaker> | hm, Yexo but the newgrf specifies a runcost base and run cost property. If that's somehow smeared to a (normal) tick and then just kept for daylength - then it autoadjusts |
| 06:58 | <@Terkhen> | andythenorth: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=806328#p806328 <-- my first newgrf project :P |
| 06:58 | <@planetmaker> | JVassie: IMHO that doesn't matter |
| 06:58 | <@planetmaker> | not much ;-) |
| 06:58 | <andythenorth> | could even do daylength parameters in newgrf |
| 06:58 | <andythenorth> | easy |
| 06:58 | <@Yexo> | planetmaker: there is also a callback for running costs |
| 06:58 | <@Yexo> | not sure how often that is called, but quite often |
| 06:58 | <@Yexo> | so that means it must be smeared out already |
| 06:59 | <JVassie> | planetmaker: so a person might have to wait 20 years if they run an electrified network? :p |
| 06:59 | <@Yexo> | JVassie: you can run diesel trains on electric track, no problem |
| 06:59 | <andythenorth> | would be better if there was a cb for vehicle introduction dates |
| 06:59 | <andythenorth> | otherwise lots of ugly action 7 |
| 06:59 | <JVassie> | but not the other way around Yexo |
| 06:59 | <andythenorth> | or so |
| 06:59 | <@Yexo> | as for the other way around: it's only fitting you have to wait longer for new trains if you use obsolete technology |
| 06:59 | <JVassie> | if you dont have wires |
| 06:59 | <JVassie> | :p |
| 06:59 | <JVassie> | hahah |
| 07:00 | <JVassie> | im talking about the early years |
| 07:00 | <JVassie> | 1935 ish to be more specific |
| 07:00 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 07:00 | <andythenorth> | it will be a *bit* confusing for players |
| 07:00 | <andythenorth> | there'll be the intro date shown by openttd |
| 07:00 | <JVassie> | we have BR01 in 1926 |
| 07:00 | <andythenorth> | and the one actually in use by newgrf |
| 07:00 | <JVassie> | and BR41 in 1936 |
| 07:01 | <JVassie> | the E18 would fit nicelyin 1935 IMO :p |
| 07:01 | -!- | dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd |
| 07:02 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 07:02 | <andythenorth> | every newgrf will need parameters |
| 07:02 | <andythenorth> | - desired start date |
| 07:02 | <JVassie> | :p |
| 07:02 | <andythenorth> | - desired game length (years) |
| 07:02 | <@Yexo> | in other words: not going to happen, bad idea |
| 07:02 | <andythenorth> | and then lots of nfo maths |
| 07:03 | <andythenorth> | it's borderline a good idea :P |
| 07:03 | <@planetmaker> | JVassie: well... in any case we should not go by a fixed rule but consider everything as guide. |
| 07:03 | <JVassie> | the game might hit a virtual dead end if things like daylength arent 'conquered' :p |
| 07:03 | <@planetmaker> | Yes, early e-engines make sense. But should not out-perform the better steam ones |
| 07:04 | <@planetmaker> | or something... dunno :-) |
| 07:04 | <@Yexo> | planetmaker: but if we introduce early e-engines, we should not use the 10-year guideline for those |
| 07:04 | <JVassie> | :p |
| 07:04 | <@planetmaker> | probably not |
| 07:05 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 07:05 | <andythenorth> | assume HEQS currently starts in 1900 |
| 07:05 | <andythenorth> | if I make the same vehicles available in 1800 |
| 07:05 | <@planetmaker> | btw... what about 'silent' upgrades: Like early versions of the same model having slightly worse stats than a model bought years later? |
| 07:06 | <andythenorth> | and double the intervals between vehicles....I get a more interesting gameplay |
| 07:06 | <andythenorth> | I just have to ignore date show in game wrt reality |
| 07:06 | <@planetmaker> | also double model lifetime then |
| 07:06 | <Hirundo> | planetmaker: That doesn't work with autoreplace, it's quite annoying in e.g. early NARS |
| 07:06 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: good point |
| 07:06 | <andythenorth> | possible |
| 07:07 | <JVassie> | good idea |
| 07:07 | * | andythenorth thinks this might be worth doing |
| 07:07 | <andythenorth> | same for FIRS |
| 07:07 | <@planetmaker> | Hirundo: yes, I know... that's why I ask. I'd not make it a 'milestone' difference. But just the normal progression where applicable / desired |
| 07:07 | <JVassie> | andythenorth: parameter ofc |
| 07:07 | <@planetmaker> | like P=1390 -> P=1540 kW |
| 07:07 | <JVassie> | *controlled |
| 07:08 | <andythenorth> | FIRS would just need intro dates adjusted for industry |
| 07:08 | <andythenorth> | not hard |
| 07:08 | <JVassie> | mmhmm |
| 07:08 | <andythenorth> | there would need to be a meridian time |
| 07:08 | <andythenorth> | some date where normal date == fake date |
| 07:09 | <andythenorth> | maybe 1930 or 1950? |
| 07:09 | <JVassie> | well |
| 07:09 | <JVassie> | whats the span of your current version? |
| 07:09 | <JVassie> | 1900 to ? |
| 07:10 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth: 1950. It's the default start date. |
| 07:10 | <JVassie> | mmm |
| 07:10 | <@planetmaker> | But still... I'm not sure this newgrf-parameter-time-strecht is the way to go |
| 07:12 | -!- | perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] |
| 07:14 | -!- | HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.180.194] has joined #openttd |
| 07:14 | <andythenorth> | so a vehicle introduced in 2000 against current time base would be introduced in 2050 instead (2:1) |
| 07:14 | <@Terkhen> | I finally abandoned it because it was impractical |
| 07:14 | <JVassie> | indeed andythenorth |
| 07:15 | <@Terkhen> | if every newgrf needs to agree on the same parameters, it is not something that should be done by newgrfs imo |
| 07:16 | <@Terkhen> | http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=806329#p806329 <--- this was my table |
| 07:17 | <@planetmaker> | [13:15] Terkhen if every newgrf needs to agree on the same parameters, it is not something that should be done by newgrfs imo <-- quite |
| 07:17 | <@Terkhen> | I have lost my magical xls file that generated all of the action0, though |
| 07:19 | <andythenorth> | the appeal of my idea is that it's only one 'if' away from succeeding |
| 07:19 | <@Terkhen> | what if? |
| 07:19 | <andythenorth> | 'if' all newgrfs implemented same approach |
| 07:19 | <@Terkhen> | heh |
| 07:19 | <andythenorth> | there are no technical blockers |
| 07:19 | <andythenorth> | current spec permits it |
| 07:19 | <andythenorth> | and it would solve the problem |
| 07:19 | <andythenorth> | no other solution has been found |
| 07:19 | <@Terkhen> | no, they are missing a property |
| 07:19 | <@Terkhen> | http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3044 |
| 07:20 | -!- | HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.166.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 07:20 | <@Terkhen> | otherwise you can only increase vehicle life by a small amount |
| 07:22 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 07:22 | <andythenorth> | that's an optimisation :P |
| 07:22 | <@Terkhen> | why? |
| 07:24 | -!- | goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-255-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] |
| 07:24 | <andythenorth> | 254 is enough for most vehicles on a 2:1 ratio |
| 07:24 | <@Terkhen> | IMO it is required... otherwise with big "daylenghts" you will need to add additional vehicles to fill the holes |
| 07:24 | <@Terkhen> | 2:1 is still too low :P |
| 07:25 | <JVassie> | more vehicles the merrier IMO |
| 07:25 | <@planetmaker> | then you should play 2ccTS ;-) |
| 07:26 | <andythenorth> | 2:1 is 'enough' |
| 07:26 | <JVassie> | purno's monstrosity? :p |
| 07:26 | <JVassie> | nahthx |
| 07:26 | <Ammler> | the issue with big sets is rather that it will get harder to make good balancing |
| 07:26 | <@Terkhen> | ^ |
| 07:26 | <andythenorth> | balancing is out the window with a big set |
| 07:26 | <JVassie> | some sets are built for realism |
| 07:26 | <JVassie> | wait till you see how amazing the FRSet is ;) |
| 07:26 | <Ammler> | realism sucks |
| 07:26 | <JVassie> | :x |
| 07:27 | -!- | Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-012-052.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd |
| 07:27 | * | andythenorth eagerly awaits game balancing outcome of BROS :P |
| 07:27 | <@Terkhen> | and if you need to add additional vehicles just to fill holes because of daylenght... forget about balance |
| 07:27 | <Ammler> | well, depends what you mean with realism |
| 07:27 | <Ammler> | good balancing is nice |
| 07:27 | <@Yexo> | BROS is doing anything? |
| 07:27 | <andythenorth> | eagerly anticipating a release AFAIK |
| 07:27 | <andythenorth> | apparently it will be done soon |
| 07:27 | <@Terkhen> | for the spain set (if I finally get around licensing and stuff) I would like to add a setting that limits the number of trains a bit |
| 07:27 | <andythenorth> | despite no-one appears to be working on it |
| 07:28 | <@Yexo> | that's the project that had their own forums and lost it 10 times, right? |
| 07:28 | <@Terkhen> | the full set could be used by realistic lovers :P |
| 07:28 | * | andythenorth is extra mean about BROS because it's everything the British (English?) are worst at |
| 07:28 | <Ammler> | Terkhen: wouldn't it be better to add a kind of filter to the buy gui? |
| 07:29 | <@Terkhen> | what kind of filter can do "group trains by similarity and display only the most representative"? :P |
| 07:29 | <@Terkhen> | a filter to the buy gui would be nice, but it does not solve the "too much trains" issue |
| 07:29 | <Ammler> | Terkhen: same filter as you would use with parameter |
| 07:29 | <@Terkhen> | as I still need to know about them |
| 07:29 | <Ammler> | too much trains is only a issue in the buy gui, isn't? |
| 07:30 | <@Terkhen> | no, it is an issue because I need to check all of them and decide on which one is the best |
| 07:30 | <@Terkhen> | checking 30~ mostly identical trains as in 2cc is a pain |
| 07:31 | <Ammler> | 2cctrainset should maybe group some trains with liveries |
| 07:31 | <@Terkhen> | bbl |
| 07:32 | <@planetmaker> | Terkhen: well... in a way Ammler is right: if newgrfs had an option to group engines and assign a default engine to the group, the purchase GUI could just show the defaults for the groups - but allow selections of others when the group is somehow opened |
| 07:32 | <@planetmaker> | but it'd need both, a new NewGRF property and a GUI addition |
| 07:33 | <@Terkhen> | that's liveries IMO |
| 07:33 | <@planetmaker> | not really :-) |
| 07:33 | <@Terkhen> | the point is: I don't need that many trains, and the people that want that many trains want to be able to find them easily, on a list |
| 07:33 | <@planetmaker> | it could be something between that |
| 07:34 | <@planetmaker> | the gui could have a button "show all" vs. "show groups". |
| 07:34 | <@Terkhen> | if they were grouped and with a default engine for each group, I would never bother with checking the rest |
| 07:34 | <@planetmaker> | thus a filter where the groups are newgrf-defined |
| 07:34 | <@planetmaker> | yup, that's what you want |
| 07:34 | <@planetmaker> | but not the realism-freaks |
| 07:34 | <@Terkhen> | in which way is that different from a parameter? |
| 07:35 | <@planetmaker> | it's different as in "can be used in the same game" |
| 07:35 | <@planetmaker> | and "can be used for a single engine, when needed, but keeps gui clean in normal cases" |
| 07:35 | <@Terkhen> | liveries too :P |
| 07:35 | <@planetmaker> | yes. But liveries should not be a different vehicle |
| 07:35 | <@planetmaker> | I'm talking about grouping vehicleIDs |
| 07:36 | <@planetmaker> | about hiding vehicleIDs behing a "group leader vehicle ID" |
| 07:36 | <@planetmaker> | but only hiding in the purchase GUI |
| 07:36 | <@Terkhen> | that sounds like a lot of work just for avoiding a newgrf parameter |
| 07:36 | <Ammler> | Terkhen: the difference is think MP :-P |
| 07:36 | <@planetmaker> | ^ |
| 07:36 | <@planetmaker> | it matters for MP servers |
| 07:37 | <@Terkhen> | I don't think that changes the issue much |
| 07:37 | <@planetmaker> | not? |
| 07:38 | <@planetmaker> | of course it will also need the newgrf to define the property... but? |
| 07:38 | <@Terkhen> | there are a lot of things chosen by parameter already in a MP game, I don't see why this one is special |
| 07:38 | <@planetmaker> | the difference is: that a single player then can make the choice. Not the map creator |
| 07:39 | <@planetmaker> | thus moving it from a game setting to a GUI setting |
| 07:39 | <@planetmaker> | which it ideally can be |
| 07:39 | <JVassie> | you lot still here? :D |
| 07:40 | <@planetmaker> | no, we all left. It's just bots chatting |
| 07:40 | <@Terkhen> | sounds like a lot of work just for that :) |
| 07:40 | <@planetmaker> | Not sure whether it's lots of work. But possibly. It'll need a new property. And a bit of GUI |
| 07:40 | <@Yexo> | <planetmaker> the difference is: that a single player then can make the choice. Not the map creator <_ that's not only an advantage for MP games, but also for scenarios |
| 07:41 | <@planetmaker> | indeed |
| 07:41 | -!- | Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd |
| 07:41 | <@planetmaker> | adding the property is easy, I think |
| 07:41 | <@planetmaker> | the GUI change is more difficult |
| 07:42 | <@planetmaker> | properties rather. One will want it for all 4 vehicles |
| 07:42 | <JVassie> | can someone summarise for me pls? <3 |
| 07:42 | <@planetmaker> | no |
| 07:42 | <@Terkhen> | it's long :P |
| 07:42 | <@planetmaker> | :-P |
| 07:42 | <@Terkhen> | planetmaker: it should also handle other GUI related stuff |
| 07:42 | <@planetmaker> | like? |
| 07:42 | <@Terkhen> | for example, if I disable all trains of a given railtype, I don't need it appearing in the rail menu |
| 07:43 | <@planetmaker> | I don't understand. That doesn't happen even now, does it? |
| 07:43 | -!- | lugo [lugo@89.238.177.145] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] |
| 07:44 | <JVassie> | yeah |
| 07:44 | <JVassie> | it does before vehciles are introduced |
| 07:44 | <JVassie> | not sure if after theyre all gone though |
| 07:44 | <@Terkhen> | it appears as disabled |
| 07:44 | <@planetmaker> | uhm... it should not show anymore |
| 07:44 | <JVassie> | i never play without persistant engines :p |
| 07:44 | <@planetmaker> | a not-present railtype should not be grayed out, but vanish |
| 07:44 | <JVassie> | really? |
| 07:45 | <@planetmaker> | I think it's a somewhat recent change, though, Terkhen |
| 07:45 | <@planetmaker> | like this year |
| 07:45 | <@Terkhen> | my point is: if you are going to allow customizing vehicle selection, the patch would also need to tweak other parts of the GUI |
| 07:45 | <@Terkhen> | I don't know, I tested on 1.1.1 |
| 07:45 | <@planetmaker> | that should have it. But... ok, I still don't understand: what other parts need tweaking than the purchase GUI? Maybe the vehicle overview GUI. Yes |
| 07:45 | <@planetmaker> | other things? |
| 07:46 | <@Terkhen> | nothing else I think, besides railtypes and maybe road/tram |
| 07:47 | <@planetmaker> | railtypes... there are only 16. They don't really need groups |
| 07:47 | <@planetmaker> | though it could work there possibly |
| 07:47 | <@planetmaker> | road / tram... doesn't make sense to me. |
| 07:48 | <JVassie> | planetmaker but not the realism-freaks <--- OY! :D |
| 07:48 | <@planetmaker> | defautl would of course be: if property not set: vehicle is its own group and group leader |
| 07:48 | <@Terkhen> | planetmaker: I did not mean groups for railtypes |
| 07:48 | <@Terkhen> | what I meant is: if I disable all groups with metro trains, I don't want metro tracks to appear |
| 07:48 | <JVassie> | while were at it on metro tracks |
| 07:49 | <JVassie> | can we make the 3rd rail appear on a specific side dependent on adjacent track? :p |
| 07:49 | <@planetmaker> | Terkhen: It's not about disabling the groups. But about collapsing all vehicles in a group to one vehicle. |
| 07:49 | <JVassie> | planetmaker: thats a good idea |
| 07:49 | <JVassie> | as long as the group can be expanded |
| 07:49 | <@Terkhen> | oh |
| 07:49 | <JVassie> | just a simple case of the newgrf defining groups |
| 07:49 | <@Terkhen> | that's even more complicated regarding the GUI |
| 07:49 | <JVassie> | and assigning vehicles to the groups |
| 07:49 | <JVassie> | and choosing a default, no? |
| 07:49 | <@planetmaker> | why? |
| 07:50 | <@planetmaker> | Terkhen: what I envision is a simple button like 'show all', 'show only goups' |
| 07:50 | <@Alberth> | JVassie: no, imho. A newgrf cannot predict how a user may want to group his vehicles |
| 07:50 | <andythenorth> | groups is akin to station tile classes |
| 07:50 | <@Terkhen> | no fancy tree gui? |
| 07:50 | <andythenorth> | but with a different gui |
| 07:50 | <@planetmaker> | where 'show only groups' means that the newest vehicle of the group is shown |
| 07:50 | <JVassie> | Alberth: wrong sort of groups |
| 07:51 | <@planetmaker> | fancy tree gui... I didn't think that far. But might be nice(r) |
| 07:51 | <JVassie> | as planetmaker make said its like station tile class |
| 07:51 | <JVassie> | not like the current 'engine groups' |
| 07:51 | <@planetmaker> | yeah, like station classes in a way |
| 07:51 | <JVassie> | :) |
| 07:51 | <JVassie> | thats a damn good idea tbh |
| 07:51 | <JVassie> | take TRAXX |
| 07:51 | <JVassie> | it could be a 'class' |
| 07:52 | <JVassie> | and within |
| 07:52 | <JVassie> | you have 1445, 146, 246, 185 etc etc |
| 07:52 | <JVassie> | but one of them is the default |
| 07:52 | <JVassie> | *145 |
| 07:52 | <@planetmaker> | Terkhen: a tree view indeed sounds very scary to implement :-) |
| 07:52 | <JVassie> | is it possible to set the 'default' of each class to either a) the most recently bought, or b) the most often bought? |
| 07:54 | * | andythenorth has another idea |
| 07:54 | <andythenorth> | don't use vehicle sets with too many vehicles :P |
| 07:54 | <andythenorth> | problem solved, no work needed |
| 07:54 | <JVassie> | >.> |
| 07:54 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth: please read again the start ;-) |
| 07:55 | <andythenorth> | I did ;) |
| 07:55 | <@planetmaker> | so... heqs -> heqs / 10 ? |
| 07:55 | <JVassie> | :D |
| 07:55 | <andythenorth> | what are the groups? |
| 07:56 | <andythenorth> | "big trucks" |
| 07:56 | <JVassie> | well for example in CETS |
| 07:56 | <@planetmaker> | what you want |
| 07:56 | <andythenorth> | "trucks that can carry coal" |
| 07:56 | -!- | TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd |
| 07:56 | <andythenorth> | "trucks with between 30t and 50t" |
| 07:56 | <andythenorth> | ? |
| 07:56 | <JVassie> | light cargo, heavy cargo, commuter, long-distance |
| 07:56 | <andythenorth> | there's no right answer, nor any reason to choose |
| 07:56 | <@planetmaker> | like station classes. Cargo restriction makes no sense, though |
| 07:56 | <andythenorth> | but for a train set you'll get |
| 07:56 | <@planetmaker> | as that filter is readily there |
| 07:56 | <andythenorth> | "pacifics" |
| 07:56 | <andythenorth> | "atlantics" |
| 07:56 | <andythenorth> | or "passenger" " freight" |
| 07:56 | <@planetmaker> | which makes sense there |
| 07:56 | <andythenorth> | neither is wrong |
| 07:56 | <JVassie> | and its up to the newgrf authors |
| 07:57 | <JVassie> | with BROS it could work well |
| 07:57 | <andythenorth> | "6 axle road switchers" / "4 axle road switchers" |
| 07:57 | <andythenorth> | "GMD" "GE" |
| 07:57 | <JVassie> | Networkers, Sprinters, Turbostars, Electrostars, etc |
| 07:57 | -!- | sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd |
| 07:57 | <andythenorth> | I have trouble seeing it working well |
| 07:58 | <andythenorth> | especially with two newgrfs supplying say...trains |
| 07:58 | <andythenorth> | newgrf authors need to then agree a common interface, and they won't do that |
| 07:58 | <@planetmaker> | so? They both have their own groups |
| 07:58 | <JVassie> | exactly |
| 07:58 | <@planetmaker> | groups are per-grf |
| 07:58 | <JVassie> | just like station classes |
| 07:58 | <andythenorth> | sooner just a boolean |
| 07:58 | <andythenorth> | "core" "extended" |
| 07:58 | <andythenorth> | apologies for highlight :P |
| 07:59 | <andythenorth> | newgrf author has to decide |
| 07:59 | <andythenorth> | almost same, without crazy label based system |
| 07:59 | <JVassie> | well |
| 07:59 | <JVassie> | 3 is better in that case |
| 07:59 | <JVassie> | minimal, normal, extended |
| 08:00 | <andythenorth> | that would be sufficient |
| 08:00 | <JVassie> | hmm |
| 08:00 | <JVassie> | planetmaker: you suggested that earlier i think |
| 08:00 | <JVassie> | for something else though |
| 08:00 | <andythenorth> | if he did, he was right :D |
| 08:00 | <JVassie> | was it parameter for CETS? |
| 08:00 | * | andythenorth is being dogmatic :P |
| 08:00 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth: it's not about core and extended. That'd not solve it really, if you have a rather rapid evolution of models |
| 08:00 | <@Yexo> | <JVassie> just like station classes <- station classes can be shared by newgrfs |
| 08:01 | <@planetmaker> | defining a vehicle by class might work just as well... |
| 08:01 | <JVassie> | Yexo, they can? |
| 08:01 | <@Yexo> | yep, they just have to use the same label |
| 08:02 | <JVassie> | oh derr |
| 08:02 | <JVassie> | i knew that :D |
| 08:04 | <andythenorth> | so what is the issue then? |
| 08:04 | <andythenorth> | I've misunderstood it |
| 08:04 | <andythenorth> | rapid model evolution is a problem because...? |
| 08:05 | <JVassie> | too many close bunched models of similar stats |
| 08:05 | <JVassie> | for those non-realism-freaks |
| 08:05 | <JVassie> | :D |
| 08:06 | <andythenorth> | and hiding some fails to solve that because? |
| 08:07 | <JVassie> | thats what the classes suggestion is for :p |
| 08:07 | -!- | Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 08:09 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 08:09 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth: exactly that shall here be the reason for classes: like "show only newest" "show all" vehicles within the single classes |
| 08:09 | <@Alberth> | why not an action 14 ? |
| 08:09 | <andythenorth> | I fail to understand correctly |
| 08:09 | <andythenorth> | I shall draw snow instead :D |
| 08:09 | <andythenorth> | in fact, inverse-snow |
| 08:09 | <andythenorth> | to correct a mistake |
| 08:10 | <@Alberth> | there is a good bulldozer in the shed that you can use :) |
| 08:11 | <@Alberth> | despite that mistake, I really like your snowy tiles, it makes me want to play arctic with snowline at height 1 :) |
| 08:11 | <andythenorth> | he |
| 08:11 | <andythenorth> | I have many more to do ;) |
| 08:12 | <andythenorth> | but they are mostly quite soothing |
| 08:12 | <andythenorth> | it might go a bit faster with advanced sprite layouts |
| 08:12 | <andythenorth> | but that's not available :( |
| 08:23 | -!- | alluke [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd |
| 08:30 | -!- | a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] |
| 08:30 | -!- | Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd |
| 08:34 | -!- | a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd |
| 08:35 | -!- | k^^ [~k^^@users192.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] |
| 08:35 | * | andythenorth ponders |
| 08:35 | <andythenorth> | whether to keep doing snow overlay by hacky-but-entirely-valid route |
| 08:35 | <andythenorth> | or wait for nforenum to get fixed |
| 08:35 | <andythenorth> | hacky-but-valid I guess :) |
| 08:36 | <@Yexo> | andythenorth: I'm trying to fix nforenum right now |
| 08:36 | -!- | glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:788e:23f2:d2b6:174c] has joined #openttd |
| 08:36 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ |
| 08:36 | <andythenorth> | it won't do any harm either way |
| 08:36 | <andythenorth> | if it gets fixed soon, I have test cases |
| 08:37 | <andythenorth> | if not...I have more test cases soon :P |
| 08:37 | <andythenorth> | just incurs a tiny bit of sprite duplication in FIRS |
| 08:37 | -!- | pugi [~pugi@p4FCC33E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] |
| 08:44 | <alluke> | watching trucks carrying containers out from brick works |
| 08:44 | <@Alberth> | much more efficient than those pallets :p |
| 08:46 | <alluke> | yeah |
| 08:51 | <@Yexo> | andythenorth: do you have a testcase? |
| 08:51 | <andythenorth> | I can create one |
| 08:51 | <andythenorth> | I think I have one commented out maybe |
| 08:51 | <andythenorth> | I'll look |
| 08:52 | <andythenorth> | sheepfarm.pnfo has partial support |
| 08:52 | <andythenorth> | it needs the advanced layout adding in sheepfarm_tiles_layouts.pnfo |
| 08:53 | <andythenorth> | and it will need the snow cutting out of the graphic |
| 08:54 | <andythenorth> | for ground tile |
| 08:54 | <andythenorth> | Yexo: you want I should do it and provide a patch? |
| 08:54 | <@Yexo> | if it's not too much work, please :) |
| 08:54 | <andythenorth> | np |
| 08:54 | * | andythenorth has to find docs for tile format though |
| 08:54 | <@Yexo> | http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Extended_Sprite_Layout |
| 08:56 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: note that the format changed a lot since your first testcase |
| 08:56 | <andythenorth> | np |
| 08:57 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: advanced action 2 tiles have one less byte? |
| 08:57 | <andythenorth> | after the ID? |
| 08:58 | <frosch123> | hmm? no |
| 08:58 | <andythenorth> | in your example there is a byte missing compared to normal/extended action 2 tile layouts |
| 08:58 | <frosch123> | what makes you think so? |
| 08:58 | <andythenorth> | or I miss-read |
| 08:58 | <andythenorth> | I misread |
| 08:59 | <andythenorth> | sorry |
| 08:59 | <frosch123> | np :) |
| 09:01 | <andythenorth> | Yexo: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/1632/advanced_action2_test_sheepfarm.patch |
| 09:02 | <andythenorth> | Yexo: not sure if I got that right, but...let me know if there are problems |
| 09:03 | <@Yexo> | it doesn't work, but that can also be because my nforenum fixes are incorrect |
| 09:03 | <@Yexo> | ..... or because I ran it with an old nforenum version |
| 09:03 | <@Yexo> | no warnings at all |
| 09:04 | <@Yexo> | but your action2 is invalid |
| 09:04 | <@Yexo> | if you use the advanced format you have to specify flags for every sprite, also all building sprites |
| 09:09 | <andythenorth> | ok |
| 09:15 | -!- | goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-255-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd |
| 09:16 | <alluke> | sucks that ships cant dodge each other |
| 09:16 | <alluke> | i have 3-wide canal but still they go trough each outher |
| 09:20 | <Ammler> | alluke: maybe you can control that with buoys |
| 09:21 | <alluke> | cba putting shitload of buoys |
| 09:21 | <alluke> | looks crap |
| 09:21 | -!- | roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd |
| 09:22 | <alluke> | docks should also be able to handle one ship at time |
| 09:22 | <alluke> | so you could build gigantic terminals with many docks |
| 09:22 | <andythenorth> | someone was doing multi-stop docks |
| 09:22 | <alluke> | whats that |
| 09:24 | <alluke> | btw |
| 09:24 | <alluke> | how do they empty ships from bulk materials like coal? |
| 09:24 | <alluke> | irl |
| 09:25 | <andythenorth> | cranes, vacuum, excavator |
| 09:25 | <andythenorth> | conveyor |
| 09:25 | <alluke> | k |
| 09:25 | <alluke> | isr has cranes but theyre only available before 1950 :( |
| 09:25 | <alluke> | shame |
| 09:26 | <andythenorth> | alluke: http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=bulk+ship+unloader&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1070&bih=668 |
| 09:28 | <alluke> | hah |
| 09:28 | <alluke> | cool |
| 09:30 | -!- | lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8da5d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd |
| 09:33 | * | andythenorth wonders what a recycling depot should look like |
| 09:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: in case you're interested, i have here proposal for a prussian railway set (ca. 1880-1925): www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/schema_pr.txt |
| 09:34 | <@planetmaker> | yes, I'm interested. Would you actually mind to somehow put that in that tracking table? |
| 09:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | have a link? |
| 09:34 | <@Yexo> | https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkXAVZqXTFQxdHM3UlpWM1hPZWpfeTlkdnZsMldjSkE |
| 09:35 | <@planetmaker> | https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkXAVZqXTFQxdHM3UlpWM1hPZWpfeTlkdnZsMldjSkE&hl=en_US&authkey=CO2PmdYG#gid=0 |
| 09:35 | <@planetmaker> | I'll happily add you to the people authorized to edit it |
| 09:35 | <@planetmaker> | hm.. authkey? |
| 09:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i don't have a google account yet |
| 09:36 | <SpComb> | yet? |
| 09:36 | -!- | sliddy [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd |
| 09:36 | <Eddi|zuHause> | not sure if i want one |
| 09:36 | <@planetmaker> | would allow you to edit that :-P |
| 09:36 | -!- | sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 09:36 | <@planetmaker> | (I have it for not much else either) |
| 09:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "Send all my private data to google" -> accept. |
| 09:43 | -!- | Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd |
| 09:44 | <Ammler> | are you sure, you need a google account? |
| 09:44 | <@planetmaker> | unless we allow editing for everyone, yes, Am |
| 09:44 | <@planetmaker> | Ammler: ^ |
| 09:45 | <Ammler> | ok, thought, there is also something with keys |
| 09:45 | <Eddi|zuHause> | hm... no mail yet |
| 09:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | hm... still no mail yet |
| 09:55 | <@Yexo> | Eddi|zuHause: waiting on a mail to confirm your google account or for access to the spreadsheet? |
| 09:58 | -!- | Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe64de00-55.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] |
| 10:01 | <Ammler> | btw. is the newgrf spec really just newgrf, no grf specs there? |
| 10:01 | <Ammler> | (about basesets) |
| 10:03 | <@Yexo> | Ammler: action5 is mostly used by basesets |
| 10:03 | <@Yexo> | however only in the "extra" grf, which is technically already a "newgrf" |
| 10:04 | <@Yexo> | the "grf" format itself doesn't contain any data, just realsprites / recolour sprites |
| 10:05 | <Ammler> | just wondering, because the ttdp wiki didn't call it newgrf, just grf, afaik |
| 10:06 | -!- | _goblin_ [~goblin@dslb-088-067-255-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd |
| 10:13 | -!- | alluke [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 10:14 | -!- | goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-255-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 10:21 | -!- | lugo- [lugo@89.238.177.145] has joined #openttd |
| 10:27 | -!- | lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8da5d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] |
| 10:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so, apparently mails from google take half an hour |
| 10:27 | -!- | lugo- is now known as lugo |
| 10:28 | <frosch123> | wolfi had to read them first |
| 10:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | rolli wolfi? |
| 10:29 | <frosch123> | yeah |
| 10:29 | <@planetmaker> | :-D |
| 10:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | o |
| 10:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | L |
| 10:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | OL |
| 10:30 | <@planetmaker> | I mean... we all know we cannot trust you ;-) |
| 10:30 | <@planetmaker> | also you are a potential terrorist ;-) |
| 10:30 | <@planetmaker> | like all of us actually |
| 10:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | what's with the 99.x engines in the table? we want to include narrow gauge? |
| 10:36 | <@planetmaker> | no, not really |
| 10:36 | <@planetmaker> | that's indeed a narrow gauge |
| 10:37 | <frosch123> | Eddi|zuHause: test for presence of a railtype label, resp. add parameters |
| 10:37 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and "usage" might want to differentiate between "commuter" (short distance, high capacity) and "local" (short distance, low capacity) |
| 10:37 | <frosch123> | some want to play with different railtypes, others fear the hassle of conversions |
| 10:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: so what about those edit rights? |
| 10:38 | <@planetmaker> | I need your google login |
| 10:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that's my e-mail if you have that one |
| 10:39 | <@planetmaker> | that'd be it, yes. But I don't know it |
| 10:40 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i'm fairly sure i sent you emails before ;) |
| 10:40 | <@Alberth> | so sent another one ;) |
| 10:40 | <@Alberth> | *send |
| 10:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you can also shuffle around the informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause urls to get my email adress ;) |
| 10:41 | <@planetmaker> | or you could just tell me now via private msg here ;-) |
| 10:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | nah, that's like saying "i'm the computer" in the turing test :p |
| 10:43 | * | Alberth is convinced pm is a person already |
| 10:45 | <@Terkhen> | http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Houses#Extra_Flags_.2819.29 <--- OpenTTD AIs care about "protected buildings"? |
| 10:45 | <@planetmaker> | Eddi|zuHause: well, I guess we won't get anywhere this way |
| 10:47 | <frosch123> | Terkhen: yes |
| 10:47 | <@Yexo> | Terkhen: afaik they're forced to care about that |
| 10:47 | <@Yexo> | but I don't think they can actually query that flag |
| 10:47 | -!- | Lakie [~Lakie@82.152.164.38] has joined #openttd |
| 10:47 | <@Terkhen> | ok, I was wondering if that description applied to OpenTTD too :) |
| 10:48 | <@planetmaker> | news message: "computer AI destroyed the historical parliament building in XXX-town." |
| 10:49 | <@planetmaker> | or the Eiffel-tower ;-) |
| 10:49 | <@Terkhen> | :P |
| 10:49 | <@planetmaker> | hm... what about a monuments add-on houses set? :-) |
| 10:49 | <@Terkhen> | players would complain that they can't build specific houses :P |
| 10:50 | <@planetmaker> | :-) |
| 10:50 | <Ammler> | the ecs tourists set is already a kind of |
| 10:51 | <@planetmaker> | Eddi|zuHause: so if you care, delete the narrow gauge stuff from it |
| 10:51 | <@Terkhen> | yes, maybe special buildings like those make more sense as objects or industries |
| 10:51 | <@planetmaker> | I might not have paid close enough attention to the gauge |
| 10:51 | * | planetmaker assigns selection of engines to eddi ;-) |
| 10:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | we can keep narrow gauge stuff and decide whether to include that later |
| 10:52 | <@planetmaker> | Terkhen: both is not ideal either: industries interfere with other industry sets. And NewObjects are not automatically built |
| 10:53 | <@planetmaker> | also... I'd make them as houses "upon map creation only" and then maybe provide them additonally as NewObjects for the player who cares |
| 10:54 | <@Terkhen> | true |
| 10:54 | <@Terkhen> | automatically build newobjects? :P |
| 10:58 | -!- | George|2 is now known as George |
| 10:59 | <@planetmaker> | I'd like that, yes |
| 10:59 | <@planetmaker> | but not prior to river creation ;-) |
| 11:01 | <@Terkhen> | automatic newobject build would probably be easier :P |
| 11:02 | <@planetmaker> | possibly... though it has to make sense, too |
| 11:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | not sure why we need two versions of the E10 which would hardly be graphically differentiable |
| 11:03 | -!- | roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 11:05 | <fjb> | Could be implemented as an upgrade like Pikka does in his plane set with the 747. |
| 11:07 | -!- | Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw3-ffa0c300-106.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd |
| 11:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "upgrades" are evil because autoreplace can't handle them |
| 11:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | possibly needs a grf-spec extension |
| 11:11 | <@planetmaker> | Eddi|zuHause: I'm sure we don't need both. I added them so that we could see and choose |
| 11:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | your engine list looks fairly random :p |
| 11:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | quick request: need two abbreviations that differenciate DB (west) and DB (unified) |
| 11:13 | <@Yexo> | DBW / DBU ? |
| 11:13 | <@Yexo> | or was that too simple |
| 11:13 | <fjb> | DB / DBAG |
| 11:13 | <@planetmaker> | Eddi|zuHause: my engine list IS fairly random |
| 11:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | fjb: that's good |
| 11:14 | <@Yexo> | out of curiosity, what does the AG stand for? |
| 11:14 | <@planetmaker> | Aktiengesellschaft |
| 11:14 | <fjb> | Aktiengesellschaft |
| 11:14 | <@planetmaker> | i.e. a company with share holders |
| 11:15 | * | fjb misses BR64 |
| 11:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | with one shareholder, currently ;) |
| 11:16 | <@planetmaker> | fjb: you also want edit rights? |
| 11:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | misses lots of things |
| 11:16 | <@planetmaker> | I don't claim to have much knowledge about what should go and what not |
| 11:17 | <@Yexo> | Eddi|zuHause: "express" = "express cargo" ? |
| 11:17 | <fjb> | Hm, don't think I need edit rights yet. |
| 11:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no, express passenger |
| 11:17 | <@Yexo> | ok |
| 11:17 | <@planetmaker> | ah... that's what I'd have called long-distance ;-) |
| 11:18 | <@Yexo> | so if express means express passengers, and I assume "local" is "local passengers", what is "passenger"? |
| 11:18 | * | fjb has a book about all engines of the DR. |
| 11:19 | <@planetmaker> | fjb: so you could make a good list? :-D |
| 11:19 | <fjb> | Hm, or would I need edit rights? Don'tz know yet. |
| 11:19 | <fjb> | planetmaker: May be I could expand your list a bit. |
| 11:20 | <@planetmaker> | fjb: preferrably I leave the list to people who actually know engines. |
| 11:20 | * | planetmaker never was a railway historian |
| 11:20 | <fjb> | There are a lot of pictures in the book. |
| 11:20 | <@planetmaker> | I'll happily discuss game balance, but the historic correctness or choice is beyond me |
| 11:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Yexo: should probably make a legend ;) |
| 11:21 | <@Yexo> | yes please :) |
| 11:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | where can i change "alignment"? |
| 11:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | found it |
| 11:24 | -!- | fjb|mobile [~fjb@82.113.99.50] has joined #openttd |
| 11:27 | -!- | supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd |
| 11:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Yexo: now better? |
| 11:31 | <@planetmaker> | Eddi|zuHause: could you add the time for the companies? |
| 11:31 | <@planetmaker> | it's clear that the Preussische Staatsbahn doesn't operate anymore, but... :-) |
| 11:33 | <@planetmaker> | I guess DR = DDR and DRG = pre- WW2? |
| 11:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yep |
| 11:34 | <supermop> | hey eddi |
| 11:35 | <supermop> | am just catching up on a few months of forum reading, |
| 11:36 | -!- | Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [] |
| 11:36 | <supermop> | you seem to be on to a concern I have had for a while re: max speeds and 2cc set |
| 11:38 | * | fjb|mobile has a book about DRG, not DR. |
| 11:40 | <@planetmaker> | fjb|mobile: you should share your knowledge then ;-) |
| 11:40 | -!- | APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 11:40 | -!- | APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #openttd |
| 11:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: do the entries in the list need to follow a particular order or are they suppsed to be reordered at will? |
| 11:42 | <fjb|mobile> | planetmaker: I guess I should... |
| 11:42 | <@planetmaker> | I've no order yet, Eddi|zuHause |
| 11:42 | <@planetmaker> | they should follow a order which make it easy to see which engines we need :-) |
| 11:42 | <@planetmaker> | I started with a time line roughly |
| 11:43 | <@planetmaker> | but that might not be best |
| 11:43 | -!- | _goblin_ [~goblin@dslb-088-067-255-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] |
| 11:45 | -!- | ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 11:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no, that's why i ask ;) |
| 11:46 | <@planetmaker> | :-) |
| 11:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | we probably need a column deciding "core" and "extended" |
| 11:48 | -!- | ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has joined #openttd |
| 11:50 | <@planetmaker> | yes. eventually at least. I'd only start with core, though |
| 11:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | hm... no, i'd make it the other way round, include all engines that sound interesting, and then successively remove them until you get a tidy "core" set |
| 11:52 | <fjb|mobile> | We should have both tables to move vehicles between them. |
| 11:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | look at my schema above, there are 40 engines on there, a "core" set for that period should probably not exceed 20 |
| 11:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | means half of them need to be carefully weighed to be removed |
| 11:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | http://www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/schema_pr.txt <-- |
| 11:57 | <@planetmaker> | [17:52] Eddi|zuHause hm... no, i'd make it the other way round, include all engines that sound interesting, and then successively remove them until you get a tidy "core" set <-- sounds like the way I'd to it, too |
| 11:59 | -!- | pugi [~pugi@p4FCC33E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd |
| 12:03 | -!- | macee [~macee@2E6B6A37.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #openttd |
| 12:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | early electrics have very short lifetime |
| 12:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (might be a disadvantage to balance them against steam) |
| 12:06 | -!- | douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-31-236.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 12:08 | -!- | valhallasw [~valhallas@80.187.210.47] has joined #openttd |
| 12:08 | <fjb|mobile> | They should have lower running costs. |
| 12:21 | -!- | macee [~macee@2E6B6A37.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has left #openttd [] |
| 12:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | http://www.micro-metakit.com/wbc.php?tpl=produktlistearchiv.html&rid=271 <-- i can't find stats (power, etc.) for this engine |
| 12:29 | -!- | douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-187-184.w109-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd |
| 12:32 | -!- | ar3k [~ident@ebv28.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd |
| 12:34 | <fjb|mobile> | I should have the stats. |
| 12:36 | -!- | andythenorth is now known as Guest5108 |
| 12:36 | -!- | Guest5108 [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 12:36 | -!- | andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd |
| 12:38 | -!- | ar3kaw [~ident@ecp147.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 12:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: which source said that the P8 was built until 1938? |
| 12:43 | <@planetmaker> | Eddi|zuHause: the "Lexikon der Lokomotiven", by Klaus Eckert and Torsten Berndt, published by Komet Verlag |
| 12:43 | -!- | DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 12:45 | <@planetmaker> | it also mentioned that the engine was also built in Poland and Romania, but without giving the years there |
| 12:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | hm, maybe they included some sub-series that i did not include when making my list |
| 12:52 | -!- | goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-255-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd |
| 12:55 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: wikipedia says until 1923, but also mentions production in romania without giving a year |
| 12:55 | <@planetmaker> | well... I've no means to judge the goodness of their investigation nor do I know their data basis |
| 13:01 | -!- | Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d086fde.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd |
| 13:02 | -!- | Mazur [~mazur@5ED2BEAE.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 13:08 | -!- | fjb|mobile [~fjb@82.113.99.50] has quit [Quit: Bye] |
| 13:11 | -!- | doug713705 [~doug@gam93-1-87-88-121-214.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #openttd |
| 13:11 | <doug713705> | Hello people. |
| 13:11 | <@Alberth> | hi |
| 13:11 | <@planetmaker> | salut |
| 13:13 | -!- | DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd |
| 13:14 | <doug713705> | I have setted up a server which is started with the -g parameter to load a scenario file. But when the game is over, the server restart with a random map and that is not what i'd like. How to tell openttd to reload the same scenario file at restart ? I found no parameter in the config file. |
| 13:15 | <doug713705> | this server is running the latest satble version |
| 13:15 | <doug713705> | stable* |
| 13:15 | <@Yexo> | as far as I know that's not possible |
| 13:15 | <doug713705> | that's an answer ! Not the one i'd like to hear, but that is one answer :-D |
| 13:15 | <@planetmaker> | yup, afaik not |
| 13:16 | <@planetmaker> | you could script it though to load the scenario again. But that needs some external tools like ap+ |
| 13:17 | <@planetmaker> | or you need to write something to connect to the admin port and give the command via those means |
| 13:17 | <doug713705> | I can manage this with a cronjob or something but I was looking for a native solution. |
| 13:17 | <@planetmaker> | yeah, sorry, that doesn't work :-) |
| 13:17 | -!- | rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-205-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd |
| 13:19 | <doug713705> | No problem with that, at least I can stop looking for something that is not possible :-) |
| 13:19 | <doug713705> | Thanks for you answers guys. |
| 13:22 | -!- | rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-188-100-208-158.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 13:25 | -!- | Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d086fde.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] |
| 13:26 | -!- | doug713705 [~doug@gam93-1-87-88-121-214.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has left #openttd [] |
| 13:29 | -!- | Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d086fde.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd |
| 13:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | http://dampflok-bilder-elektroloks.chapso.de/auswahl-s198686.html <- that might be a fairly comprehensive list for stats |
| 13:36 | <andythenorth> | @seen DanMacK |
| 13:36 | <@DorpsGek> | andythenorth: DanMacK was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 2 days, 23 hours, 51 minutes, and 27 seconds ago: * DanMacK waves |
| 13:36 | * | andythenorth is worried that DanMacK is bored of sprites :o |
| 13:37 | <andythenorth> | this would be sad |
| 13:37 | -!- | goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-255-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] |
| 13:45 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: translators * r22596 /trunk/src/lang/ (esperanto.txt portuguese.txt): |
| 13:45 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: |
| 13:45 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: esperanto - 21 changes by Christopher |
| 13:45 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 changes by JayCity |
| 13:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: what to do if i don't have TE, only the "Reibungslast"? |
| 13:50 | <@Terkhen> | it is possible to have houses producing cargos different than passengers and mail? |
| 13:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Terkhen: same as industries, i presume |
| 13:51 | <@planetmaker> | Eddi|zuHause: good question :-). Note down that? |
| 13:52 | <@Terkhen> | hmm... it is possible, but it needs a callback |
| 13:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "in theory" it would simply be µ*m*g |
| 13:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | what's µ typically? 0.035? |
| 13:53 | <@planetmaker> | something of that order |
| 13:54 | <@planetmaker> | just use the value with that approximation, I think |
| 13:54 | -!- | APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 13:54 | <@planetmaker> | and maybe add a footnote that it was obtained by these means |
| 13:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | hm... my table says steel on steel (dry): 0.15 |
| 13:54 | <@Terkhen> | are you doing a csv -> code conversion? |
| 13:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and 0.002 for rolling resistance |
| 13:55 | -!- | APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #openttd |
| 13:55 | <@planetmaker> | Terkhen: currently we only have a google docs version |
| 13:55 | <@Terkhen> | s/doing/planning/ |
| 13:55 | <@planetmaker> | For the actual rolling stock we might consider such thing indeed |
| 13:56 | <@Yexo> | Terkhen: there are no plans for that, but if that saves work it's quite likely |
| 13:56 | <Eddi|zuHause> | @calc 34700*0.15*9.81 |
| 13:56 | <@DorpsGek> | Eddi|zuHause: 51061.05 |
| 13:56 | <@Terkhen> | ok :) |
| 13:56 | <@planetmaker> | it might make some balancing easier. But... yes :-) |
| 13:56 | <Eddi|zuHause> | 51kN? is that low for a steam engine? |
| 13:56 | <frosch123> | compared to the other engines, it is pretty low |
| 13:57 | <JVassie> | hi guys |
| 13:58 | <JVassie> | good work on the spreadsheet someone |
| 13:58 | <Eddi|zuHause> | @calc 60000*0.15*9.81 |
| 13:58 | <@DorpsGek> | Eddi|zuHause: 88290 |
| 13:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there must be something wrong with my physics |
| 13:59 | <frosch123> | what is the total weight of the engine? |
| 14:00 | <Eddi|zuHause> | around 60t total, around 34t "active" |
| 14:00 | <JVassie> | planetmaker: shouldnt the short names be like BR150 rather than just 150? |
| 14:01 | <@planetmaker> | ask Eddi|zuHause , he's the professional ;-) |
| 14:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | JVassie: since all engines would have "BR", there's no sense in repeating it. makes it shorter. |
| 14:02 | <frosch123> | @calc 157/84000/9.81 |
| 14:02 | <@DorpsGek> | frosch123: 0.000190524731809 |
| 14:02 | <JVassie> | what are we going to use as a display name then Eddi|zuHause? |
| 14:02 | <frosch123> | @calc 157000/84000/9.81 |
| 14:02 | <@DorpsGek> | frosch123: 0.190524731809 |
| 14:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | JVassie: some variant of the long name |
| 14:02 | <JVassie> | ill add a column xD |
| 14:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | JVassie: no |
| 14:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's fine like it is |
| 14:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | also, there already is another hidden column, should we indeed need one ;) |
| 14:03 | <JVassie> | well thats for variant name |
| 14:03 | <JVassie> | so take the E10 |
| 14:03 | <JVassie> | there would be E10.0 |
| 14:03 | <JVassie> | E10.1 |
| 14:03 | <JVassie> | etc |
| 14:03 | <JVassie> | as the variant names |
| 14:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | JVassie: i don't think we'll need those |
| 14:04 | <JVassie> | I presume we decided on a minimal/normal/extended? |
| 14:04 | <JVassie> | or just core / extended? |
| 14:04 | <frosch123> | @calc 157000/51000/9.81 |
| 14:04 | <@DorpsGek> | frosch123: 0.313805440627 |
| 14:05 | <JVassie> | I like the new 'useage's too |
| 14:05 | <JVassie> | better to split pax into 4 |
| 14:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i don't see the need for "minimal" |
| 14:06 | <frosch123> | Eddi|zuHause: the e01 seems to have double µ than normal |
| 14:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but could easily add that later |
| 14:06 | <JVassie> | mmm true |
| 14:06 | <JVassie> | if were going to have an extended option, may as well make use of it :D |
| 14:07 | <JVassie> | that way we can cater for both realists and 'funists' |
| 14:07 | <JVassie> | which is a good thing IMO |
| 14:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | frosch123: took the value from here: http://dampflok-bilder-elektroloks.chapso.de/e01-s199278.html |
| 14:08 | <frosch123> | i did as well |
| 14:09 | <frosch123> | that page lists both starting-TE, total weight and useful weight |
| 14:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, and starting-TE is missing from the steam engines |
| 14:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | maybe they calculated with sand? |
| 14:11 | <fjb> | Eddi|zuHause: E06: 110km/h, 2780kW, 111,6t |
| 14:11 | <fjb> | Build 1923/24 |
| 14:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | hm... i entered 2330kW here |
| 14:12 | <frosch123> | Eddi|zuHause: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anfahrzugkraft <- last sentence on that page |
| 14:12 | <fjb> | Leistungskennziffer (whatever that is) 25kW/t |
| 14:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | fjb: i took the "dauerleistung" rather than the "stundenleistung" |
| 14:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | maybe we should decide on one or the other beforehand |
| 14:14 | <fjb> | I also have "Geschwindigkeit bei St.lstg." 67km/h |
| 14:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | fjb: i found this page after i asked: http://dampflok-bilder-elektroloks.chapso.de/e06-s199282.html |
| 14:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | @calc 34700*0.35*9.81 |
| 14:15 | <@DorpsGek> | Eddi|zuHause: 119142.45 |
| 14:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so... 119kN, better value for a steam engine? |
| 14:16 | <frosch123> | yes, but 0.35 is quite maximum µ |
| 14:16 | -!- | valhallasw [~valhallas@80.187.210.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 14:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | @calc 31.9*0.35*9.81 |
| 14:18 | <@DorpsGek> | Eddi|zuHause: 109.52865 |
| 14:18 | <JVassie> | that legend is quite bulky :x |
| 14:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | JVassie: if you know a trick to hide it in something like a dropdown? |
| 14:19 | <JVassie> | would be easier to put at bottom of sheet IMO |
| 14:19 | <JVassie> | im on a laptop atm |
| 14:19 | <JVassie> | and can only see 7 rows of actual table at a time :p |
| 14:20 | * | planetmaker doesn't see more rows either for the same reason |
| 14:21 | <JVassie> | how about |
| 14:21 | <JVassie> | we put it in rows 2 |
| 14:21 | <JVassie> | and unfreeze it |
| 14:21 | <JVassie> | then it can be shown/hidden when needed? |
| 14:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i put it to bottom now |
| 14:21 | <JVassie> | lovely thanks |
| 14:22 | <JVassie> | row 21? |
| 14:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but that may be of trouble later when one wants to sort columns |
| 14:22 | <JVassie> | brb |
| 14:22 | <JVassie> | hmm |
| 14:22 | <JVassie> | we'll see |
| 14:22 | <JVassie> | :X |
| 14:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | JVassie: unfinished |
| 14:30 | -!- | goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-255-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd |
| 14:33 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r22597 /branches/1.1/ (6 files in 3 dirs): |
| 14:33 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk: |
| 14:33 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: - Fix: Callback result for airport layout name was incorrectly used (r22496) |
| 14:33 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: - Fix: Airport preview sprite can depend on the layout, so update the cached SpriteID when the layout changes (r22494) |
| 14:33 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: - Fix: Engine IDs for coal and mail wagons were swapped in the TTO savegame conversion [FS#4622] (r22487) |
| 14:33 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: - Fix: The caption of centered windows could be moved out of the main window and thus become inaccessible when resizing the main window (r22485, r22484) |
| 14:34 | -!- | Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d086fde.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] |
| 14:37 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r22598 /branches/1.1/ (11 files in 6 dirs): |
| 14:37 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk: |
| 14:37 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] Doing rescan_ai in a game with running AIs caused a crash [FS#4631] (r22534) |
| 14:37 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not create an implicit order if the current order is the first order in the order list and we visit the station of the last entry of the order list (r22532) |
| 14:37 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: - Fix: MinGW 64 related compilation issues [FS#4623] (r22522, r22491, r22490, r22489) |
| 14:37 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: - Fix: The layout selectors of the airport build GUI did not latch properly (r22497, r22495) |
| 14:40 | -!- | juh [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd |
| 14:40 | <frosch123> | the narrow gauge engines in that table are listed 10x longer than they are |
| 14:41 | -!- | goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-255-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] |
| 14:42 | -!- | Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d086fde.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd |
| 14:42 | -!- | Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd |
| 14:45 | -!- | juh [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [] |
| 14:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker was responsible for those... |
| 14:48 | * | planetmaker pleads guilty |
| 14:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the engines with low number, like T2 are no real homogenous series |
| 14:56 | <Eddi|zuHause> | more like "we put all older engines with low power in there" |
| 14:58 | <@Yexo> | there are only 0x80 IDs available for actionF, and afaik they can't be reused. Each actionF can contain 255 parts |
| 14:59 | <@Yexo> | does this mean the total number of townnames per newgrf is limited to 0x80*255? |
| 14:59 | <@Yexo> | @calc 128*255 |
| 14:59 | <@DorpsGek> | Yexo: 32640 |
| 14:59 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: auto-fencing FTW ;) |
| 14:59 | <@planetmaker> | yep :-) |
| 14:59 | <@planetmaker> | OpenTTD > r22518 required though ;-) |
| 15:00 | -!- | m [~m@ppp-93-104-30-141.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #openttd |
| 15:01 | <frosch123> | Yexo: if you do not combine parts, then yes |
| 15:01 | <@Yexo> | frosch123: combine parts? |
| 15:02 | <frosch123> | only names of a single part, no concatenations |
| 15:02 | <@Yexo> | ah, ok |
| 15:04 | <@Yexo> | thanks |
| 15:20 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r22599 /branches/1.1/ (11 files in 6 dirs): |
| 15:20 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk: |
| 15:20 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: - Fix: Clear airport persistent storage on construction/removal of airports (r22552) |
| 15:20 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: - Fix: Possible crash when opening the airport build window for the first time [FS#4619] (r22538) |
| 15:20 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: - Fix: Replace the half small airport structure on the intercontinental airport with some grass [FS#3494] (r22537) |
| 15:20 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: - Fix: Documentation omission regarding admin protocol [FS#4632] (r22536) |
| 15:20 | -!- | Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 15:27 | -!- | stenli [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd |
| 15:28 | -!- | stenli [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [] |
| 15:40 | -!- | bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd |
| 15:40 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r22600 /branches/1.1/ (9 files in 3 dirs): |
| 15:40 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk: |
| 15:40 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: - Fix: PBS order forecasting modified the current order index in case of a goto-nearest-depot order and no depot could be found [FS#4641] (r22589) |
| 15:40 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: - Fix: Remove BaseStorageArrays from _changed_storage_arrays on destruction (r22583, r22551) |
| 15:40 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not increment STL iterators after they've been invalidated (r22582) |
| 15:41 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not lower the arrow buttons in the NewGRF/AI parameter windows if they are clicked when disabled (r22553, r22499) |
| 15:43 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r22601 /branches/1.1/ (6 files in 3 dirs): |
| 15:43 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk: |
| 15:43 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: - Add: Makefile support for bundling pdb and running regressions with the MSVC makefile (r22581, r22580, r22576) |
| 15:43 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not show cargo accepted/produced in the new station window when no tiles are selected (mouse hovering a window or toolbar) [FS#4647] (r22595, r22593) |
| 15:43 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: - Fix: Add active NewGRFs to the list of available ones when selecting the empty preset [FS#4644] (r22594) |
| 15:43 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: - Fix: Reading of heightmaps with uncommon BMP formats failed due to uninitialised variables [FS#4645] (r22592) |
| 15:57 | -!- | zodttd [~me@user-0c90n0l.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #openttd |
| 16:05 | <m> | hey all |
| 16:05 | <@Yexo> | hello m |
| 16:05 | <m> | someone here who knows how to reverse-engineer with IDA Pro? I'm trying to decompile Earth Siege 2 and have some questions with Borland C++ vtables |
| 16:06 | <@Yexo> | I've used it before, but not so much that I can answer any questions about it |
| 16:06 | -!- | ashledombos [~ashledomb@ris91-2-82-227-26-30.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 16:06 | <m> | kk^^ |
| 16:16 | -!- | k^^ [~k^^@users192.kollegienet.dk] has joined #openttd |
| 16:22 | <@Yexo> | one k too little :p |
| 16:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that was quite a coincidence :p |
| 16:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (if you believe in such things) |
| 16:23 | <@Terkhen> | :D |
| 16:28 | <frosch123> | Eddi|zuHause: do you believe in the coincidence that the index of the newtrains-switch (0x37) incremented by the id of the action4-original-strings-feature (0x48) results in 0x7f, which turns out to be the a patch switch, which is always set? |
| 16:32 | -!- | DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 16:38 | -!- | HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.180.194] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 16:42 | -!- | Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-012-052.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] |
| 17:02 | -!- | sliddy [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 17:03 | -!- | Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw3-ffa0c300-106.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] |
| 17:04 | -!- | DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-96-126.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd |
| 17:08 | -!- | douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-187-184.w109-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 17:15 | -!- | Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] |
| 17:25 | <JVassie> | hi guys |
| 17:28 | <supermop> | hi |
| 17:32 | -!- | Amis [~Amis@5400C2F3.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 17:45 | -!- | douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-73-105.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd |
| 17:50 | -!- | KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-97-92.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] |
| 17:50 | -!- | tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-33-127.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd |
| 17:51 | <@Terkhen> | good night |
| 17:51 | -!- | andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] |
| 17:51 | -!- | DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-96-126.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 17:55 | -!- | sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd |
| 17:57 | -!- | tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-100-246.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 17:57 | -!- | JVassie [569e818b@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] |
| 18:00 | -!- | douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-73-105.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 18:07 | -!- | jewoodall [~4cbc671b@webuser.thegrebs.com] has joined #openttd |
| 18:07 | <jewoodall> | Hi folks! Can I ask about something I'm running into? |
| 18:09 | <jewoodall> | Wow. Okay. Should have read the topic. I have a mine and forest, with a train station inbetween. I send a train with 1 ore and one wood car into the station, and NOTHING gets loaded onto my train. |
| 18:10 | <@Yexo> | are you using any newgrfs? |
| 18:11 | <jewoodall> | Did the default Windows download last night. |
| 18:11 | <@Yexo> | which version is that? |
| 18:11 | <jewoodall> | Showing OpenTTD 1.1.1 |
| 18:11 | <@Yexo> | ok |
| 18:11 | <@Yexo> | if you click the mine, you'll see which cargos in can produce |
| 18:11 | <jewoodall> | No customs, all defaults accepted. I just switched to using only one car, that being the wood car. |
| 18:11 | <jewoodall> | 88 tons iron ore. 28% transported. |
| 18:12 | <@Yexo> | do you realize that a forest doesn't accept iron ore? you need to transport iron ore to a steel mill |
| 18:12 | <jewoodall> | Forest reads 168 tonnes wood, 26% transported. |
| 18:12 | <jewoodall> | Oh, yeah, I was being literal. In the east, I have a station. That station is smack between a forest and a mine. |
| 18:13 | <@Yexo> | wood from the forest needs to be transported to a paper mill or sawmill, depending on the climate |
| 18:13 | <jewoodall> | In the southwest, I have another station. It is located close to a sawmill and a steel mill. |
| 18:13 | <jewoodall> | SW station says accepts "Passenger, Wood, Iron Ore". Waiting: Nothing. |
| 18:14 | <@Yexo> | if you open the train details, how much cargo is already in the train? |
| 18:14 | <jewoodall> | East Station says Waiting 305 wood and 304 ore. |
| 18:14 | <@Yexo> | train details can be found by clicking on the train, than the lowest button at the right |
| 18:14 | <jewoodall> | Empty. |
| 18:14 | <@Yexo> | what are the orders for your train? |
| 18:14 | <jewoodall> | I've watched, and it never seems to load either cargo. |
| 18:15 | <jewoodall> | full load far end) |
| 18:15 | <jewoodall> | Ooops. Typo. 1: Danington Mines, Full Load. |
| 18:16 | <@Yexo> | hmm, seems all fine |
| 18:16 | <jewoodall> | Second line: Go to Brundinghead Woods, [far end] |
| 18:16 | <@Yexo> | can you upload your savegame somewhere? |
| 18:17 | -!- | k^^ [~k^^@users192.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 18:18 | <jewoodall> | Okay, sent that. Thanks for the help. |
| 18:19 | <jewoodall> | Now I'm going to try sending a single ore car, just for kicks. It wouldn't load my wood car. |
| 18:19 | <@Yexo> | jewoodall: you're missing a single piece of track hidden behind the steel mill |
| 18:19 | <jewoodall> | Wow I'm dumb. |
| 18:19 | <jewoodall> | THANKS! |
| 18:19 | <@Yexo> | press x to toggle transparency |
| 18:19 | <@Yexo> | or ctrl+x to open the menu for that |
| 18:20 | <jewoodall> | Heh. 184 pounds to fix. |
| 18:20 | <@Yexo> | after that it seems to work fine |
| 18:20 | <jewoodall> | My guy probably lost $6,000 waiting for that. |
| 18:21 | <jewoodall> | Okay. Fixed. LOL. |
| 18:21 | <@Yexo> | if you want to make more money, build longer routes |
| 18:21 | <@Yexo> | your routes are all very short |
| 18:21 | -!- | core [5169d783@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] |
| 18:21 | <@Yexo> | brundinghead forest to weningville sawmill would be a nice length for example |
| 18:23 | <@Yexo> | setting train 1 to full load at the first station will also double the profitability of that train |
| 18:24 | <jewoodall> | Done. Looks like train 1 is actually the bulk of my company's profit. |
| 18:25 | <jewoodall> | I had some dumb problems in my previous games, probably solvable by means of the transparency trick you showed me. |
| 18:25 | <jewoodall> | This was the reason for all my short runs. |
| 18:26 | <jewoodall> | I was also amusing myself seeing if you could make "Municipal Mass Transit" into a viable business model. Frankly, I'm making it work better than most real-life cities, but it's still a waste of capital and managerial effort. |
| 18:28 | <@Yexo> | it's possible, but only profitable with bigger cities |
| 18:28 | <@Yexo> | and unmanageable even then |
| 18:29 | -!- | Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] |
| 18:31 | <jewoodall> | I tried running freight trucking lines. Profitable like mad, but still barely manageable. I'm noticing that my train 2 is not getting adequate Wood to transport. Is it possible for a forest to disappear, as in real life? |
| 18:32 | -!- | frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fc4f8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 18:33 | <@Yexo> | yes, industries can close |
| 18:33 | -!- | Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 18:33 | <@Yexo> | see http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_Mechanics for how industry production works |
| 18:33 | <@Yexo> | and also distribution of cargo to stations |
| 18:34 | <@Yexo> | you'll see that it depends on station rating, which is influenced big time by always having a vehicle loading at the station |
| 18:34 | <@Yexo> | which means that for optimal production you need more than 1 vehicle per line |
| 18:38 | <jewoodall> | Thank you. I'm trying to determine if multiple vehicles per line means more than one track. I know with Railroad Tycoon I was able to use signaling to do that, as long as there was a double section somewhere. |
| 18:38 | -!- | HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.180.194] has joined #openttd |
| 18:39 | <jewoodall> | I want to stop bothering you though and read the manual. It's not like I'm paying for a tutor. |
| 18:39 | <@Yexo> | http://wiki.openttd.org/Tutorial/Two_Tracks there you go |
| 18:40 | <@Yexo> | and that is a very good mentality. If you do read the manual you're always welcome to ask any questions the manual didn't answer or you didn't found |
| 18:40 | <@Yexo> | for now you'll have to get answers from someone else though, I'm going to sleep |
| 18:41 | <@Yexo> | good night |
| 18:41 | <jewoodall> | Night Yexo, night all! |
| 18:41 | -!- | jewoodall [~4cbc671b@webuser.thegrebs.com] has quit [Quit: TheGrebs.com CGI:IRC] |
| 18:43 | -!- | Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 18:51 | -!- | DDR [~DDR@66.183.113.68] has joined #openttd |
| 18:52 | -!- | sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Quit: The Third Tiberium War - http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-third-tiberium-war] |
| 18:54 | -!- | douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-52-53.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd |
| 18:55 | -!- | Pixa [~Pixa@85.210.67.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 18:57 | -!- | supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has left #openttd [] |
| 19:06 | -!- | Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd |
| 19:06 | -!- | TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] |
| 19:09 | <m> | any option available which scales the control buttons? |
| 19:09 | <m> | they're damn small on a 17'' 1920x1080 screen |
| 19:10 | <Ammler> | m: there is biggui newgrf |
| 19:10 | <@Yexo> | you can try http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=50095 |
| 19:11 | <m> | perfect, thanks! |
| 19:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | best combined with increasing font size in openttd.cfg |
| 19:12 | <m> | and can I activate tool-tips? |
| 19:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | in advanced settings: either hovering x seconds or right click |
| 19:15 | -!- | Progman [~progman@p57A1BD6B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 19:15 | <m> | thx |
| 19:20 | <Wolf01> | 'night |
| 19:20 | -!- | Wolf01 [~wolf01@host109-162-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] |
| 19:21 | <@planetmaker> | hm... maybe we should introduce a new action14 label: STAT. And such NewGRF could be offered in a separate NewGRF GUI for static NewGRFs |
| 19:21 | -!- | Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d086fde.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] |
| 19:26 | <Ammler> | planetmaker: openttd should be able to detect static capable without action14 |
| 19:27 | <Ammler> | I guess, it does already |
| 19:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: no, only a button "make static", which throws an error if it's not possible |
| 19:28 | <Ammler> | it should also make a newgrf "editable", if it is loaded on MP but static |
| 19:30 | <@Yexo> | <Ammler> it should also make a newgrf "editable", if it is loaded on MP but static <- that is not feasible |
| 19:30 | <@Yexo> | since "editing" grfs (I assume you mean adding/removing static grfs or modifying their parameters) means all grfs have to be reloaded |
| 19:30 | <Ammler> | I fear so, because the data is in the save, right? |
| 19:30 | <@Yexo> | which is something we avoid at all cost in MP |
| 19:30 | <@Yexo> | if you want to edit them exit MP, edit static grfs, enter same game |
| 19:31 | <@Yexo> | Eddi|zuHause: for the same reason you can't make a grf static during a game |
| 19:31 | <Ammler> | Yexo: that is something else |
| 19:31 | <@Yexo> | and before a game is started we don't know if a grf can be made static |
| 19:31 | <Ammler> | I meant more that you could e.g. disable a static grf |
| 19:31 | <@Yexo> | as that depends also on all non-static grfs |
| 19:31 | <@planetmaker> | well... having such flag would make it easier to detect instead of testing each grf for static-ness |
| 19:31 | <@Yexo> | Ammler: that is exactly the same |
| 19:31 | <Ammler> | Yexo: a static grf, which is loaded on MP |
| 19:31 | <@Yexo> | planetmaker: you can't test a grf for staticness without having a list of grfs that will be active |
| 19:32 | <Ammler> | on the server |
| 19:32 | <@Yexo> | Ammler: a server has no static grfs |
| 19:32 | <@planetmaker> | Yexo: but a14 is read before |
| 19:32 | <@Yexo> | that would be rather pointless |
| 19:32 | <@planetmaker> | that's why I suggest(ed) the a14 additon |
| 19:32 | <@planetmaker> | +i |
| 19:32 | <@Yexo> | planetmaker: yes, but you can't take the value from a14 as authority, jsut as hint |
| 19:32 | <Ammler> | Yexo: you can load every static grf as normal grf |
| 19:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: what yexo means is a grf cannot be made static if another grf references it |
| 19:32 | <@Yexo> | planetmaker: I'm not saying that's a bad suggestion |
| 19:32 | <@Yexo> | Ammler: if you do it's no longer a static grf |
| 19:32 | <@planetmaker> | Yexo: yes, I know that authors can mess up. |
| 19:32 | <Ammler> | that's the point |
| 19:33 | <@Yexo> | a static grf is only static as long as it's statically loaded, ie not by the server |
| 19:33 | <@planetmaker> | But it could give a list of newgrfs which one could filter for |
| 19:33 | <@Yexo> | nothing is going to change that |
| 19:33 | <@Yexo> | planetmaker: <Yexo> planetmaker: I'm not saying that's a bad suggestion |
| 19:33 | <@Yexo> | in fact I rather like it |
| 19:33 | <Ammler> | yep, sadly :-) |
| 19:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Ammler: you can make a counter-grf |
| 19:34 | <@planetmaker> | I'm not trying to contradict you, Yexo :-) |
| 19:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that reverses the effect of certain known static-able grfs |
| 19:34 | <@planetmaker> | I mainly wonder how a 'bigGUI' could be provided |
| 19:34 | <@Yexo> | Eddi|zuHause: impossible, static grfs are always loaded after the normal grfs |
| 19:34 | <@planetmaker> | And actually everything would be solved, if both, a) fonts are GUI-configurable and static GUI-grfs. |
| 19:35 | <Ammler> | planetmaker: they don't need action14 to be so |
| 19:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Yexo: i understand it like Ammler wants to disable a grf that is loaded on the server, that has only static-like effects |
| 19:35 | <@Yexo> | Ammler: but that would make it easier for the user to filter which grfs might be safe for static use |
| 19:35 | <@Yexo> | Eddi|zuHause: that will never be supported |
| 19:35 | <@planetmaker> | doesn't make sense either, I think |
| 19:36 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Yexo: yes, hence my suggestion |
| 19:36 | <Ammler> | Yexo: yes, but openttd could "flag" the grfs on loading |
| 19:36 | <Ammler> | so you can be sure, it is really static |
| 19:36 | <@Yexo> | Eddi|zuHause: ah, a local static grf that reverses the effects |
| 19:36 | <@planetmaker> | Ammler: not really. Another grf could depend on it |
| 19:36 | <@Yexo> | Ammler: as I said before, that's impossible |
| 19:36 | <Ammler> | Yexo: openttd does that already |
| 19:36 | <Ammler> | just add all newgrfs to static |
| 19:36 | <@Yexo> | you can't know whether a grf is safe for loading as static grf before you have a list of active newgrfs |
| 19:37 | <Ammler> | then all non-static will automatically be dropped |
| 19:37 | <@Yexo> | Ammler: no, it flags certain grfs as "unsafe" for static |
| 19:37 | <@Yexo> | that is something else than flagging the rest as "safe for static" |
| 19:37 | <Eddi|zuHause> | anyway, the main problem is there is no GUI for making a grf static |
| 19:37 | -!- | sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 19:37 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that's what i intended to solve |
| 19:37 | <@planetmaker> | *sigh* yes, exactly, Eddi|zuHause |
| 19:37 | <@planetmaker> | you're working on it? |
| 19:38 | <Ammler> | well, at least it worked that way back '.5/0.6 as I we made grfpack static list |
| 19:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no |
| 19:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i'm never working on GUI :p |
| 19:38 | <@planetmaker> | :-) |
| 19:38 | <@planetmaker> | [01:37] Eddi|zuHause that's what i intended to solve |
| 19:38 | <@planetmaker> | sounds like, though ;-) |
| 19:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: with my suggestion of a button |
| 19:38 | <@planetmaker> | where should that be? |
| 19:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | in the newgrf gui |
| 19:39 | <@planetmaker> | I wonder whether static NewGRF should be configurable from e.g. the options menu |
| 19:39 | <Ammler> | Yexo: what is the difference of "1. all grfs are static, 2. drop the unsafe" and "scan for static grfs"? |
| 19:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | maybe next to the "add" button |
| 19:40 | <@planetmaker> | Eddi|zuHause: what I can envision there as an easy change is a mode switch static vs. standard |
| 19:40 | <@Yexo> | Ammler: "scan for static grfs" implies that you can be sure whether a grf is safe to be loaded as static. The first approach means you start with all grfs and drop the known unsafe ones, resulting in a list with grfs which _might_ be safe for static |
| 19:40 | <@planetmaker> | thus that two independent list of grfs are handled |
| 19:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Yexo: i disagree, a preliminary check for static-ability need not be exact |
| 19:41 | <@planetmaker> | Yexo: 'scan for static' implies to actually read each grf entirely, right? |
| 19:41 | <Ammler> | Yexo: how can action14 make that better? |
| 19:41 | <@planetmaker> | something which is not done by default |
| 19:41 | <@planetmaker> | Eddi|zuHause: that's why I suggested the a14 property |
| 19:41 | <Ammler> | how should a author better know, which grf is safe, which not |
| 19:41 | <@Yexo> | Ammler: by having non-static grfs that might not be automatically detected as unsafe mark themself as unsafe |
| 19:42 | <@planetmaker> | it need not be exact. But should be a pretty good hint |
| 19:42 | <@Yexo> | let's drop this discussions, the important part is the gui |
| 19:43 | <@Yexo> | I think we more or less agree on the rest, apart from maybe some semantics |
| 19:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: problem of an a14 entry is that grf authors will misunderstand what it does, and set it in wrong cases |
| 19:43 | <@planetmaker> | possibly |
| 19:43 | <@Yexo> | Eddi|zuHause: action14 is only hints anyway, it can never be used as final grf info |
| 19:43 | <@Yexo> | hmm, or maybe it can |
| 19:44 | <Ammler> | you do already e.g. with version |
| 19:44 | <@planetmaker> | thus "as a default filter" so that I don't have to browse through 400 static unsafe newgrfs |
| 19:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Yexo: yes, but the info gets worthless then, might as well not have it at all |
| 19:44 | <@Yexo> | planetmaker: question is how large that list is after removing all grfs with action3 / etc. |
| 19:44 | <@Yexo> | which are known to be unsafe |
| 19:45 | <@planetmaker> | is that known upon normal scan? |
| 19:45 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: but an a14 entry also does not help with older grfs |
| 19:45 | <@planetmaker> | I'm not sure I want to extend the grf scan even more... |
| 19:45 | <Ammler> | planetmaker: add all newgrfs to static then start openttd |
| 19:45 | <@planetmaker> | lol |
| 19:46 | <Ammler> | it does automatically drop the unstatic |
| 19:46 | <Ammler> | that is how I made the static list for the grfpack until we dropped static support |
| 19:48 | <Ammler> | http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/GRF_Table_5 |
| 19:49 | <@planetmaker> | hm |
| 19:51 | <Ammler> | the grfpack has scripts to make a list for cfg :-) |
| 19:51 | <Ammler> | (with bananas grfs) |
| 19:52 | <@Yexo> | Ammler: if A.grf checks whether B.grf is active, than B.grf is static-unsafe if A.grf is loaded non-static |
| 19:53 | <@Yexo> | if A.grf is loaded static or not at all then B.grf can still be static-safe |
| 19:53 | -!- | Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 19:54 | <@planetmaker> | newgrf.cpp:5420 |
| 19:54 | <Ammler> | good example is dutch catenary and canadian statins |
| 19:54 | <Ammler> | but I thought, frosch fixed that |
| 19:55 | <@Yexo> | planetmaker: that code is only reached during actual processing of the grfs, not during the pre-scan stage |
| 19:55 | <@Yexo> | Ammler: that's impossible to fix |
| 19:55 | <@Yexo> | unless you want to break the existing spec and create a new one |
| 19:55 | <@planetmaker> | yes, I'm searching that still |
| 19:55 | <Ammler> | Yexo: well, disabling the grf |
| 19:55 | <@Yexo> | see around liens 7962 |
| 19:56 | <Ammler> | but not sure anymore, very long ago |
| 19:56 | <@Yexo> | anyway, now it's really time to sleep |
| 19:56 | <@Yexo> | good night all |
| 19:56 | <Eddi|zuHause> | afair the fix was to disable dutch catenary instead of canadian stations |
| 19:57 | <Ammler> | Eddi|zuHause: yes, the static grf |
| 19:57 | <Ammler> | iirc |
| 19:59 | <Ammler> | Eddi|zuHause: or do you mean, the grf author fixed it? |
| 20:00 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no |
| 20:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well, the other fix would be changing the grf-id of dutch catenary :p |
| 20:03 | <@planetmaker> | hm... I should sleep while pondering this problem. Good night :-) |
| 20:04 | <Ammler> | better static grf support would rock in any case |
| 20:05 | <Ammler> | static grfs are forgotten since the newgrf gui |
| 20:06 | <Ammler> | it would also be coold for grfs which depend on basesets, like swedish rails |
| 20:07 | <Ammler> | well, you would need to split the grf but might be worth |
| 20:08 | <Ammler> | good night |
| 20:10 | -!- | Lakie [~Lakie@82.152.164.38] has quit [Quit: Sleep.] |
| 20:14 | -!- | pugi [~pugi@p4FCC33E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] |
| 20:28 | -!- | Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 20:34 | -!- | fjb [~frank@p5DDFC5C7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 20:37 | -!- | Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd |
| 20:56 | -!- | m [~m@ppp-93-104-30-141.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 20:59 | -!- | fjb [~frank@p5DDFD09A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd |
| 21:00 | -!- | Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] |
| 21:05 | -!- | glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:788e:23f2:d2b6:174c] has quit [Quit: bye] |
| 21:18 | -!- | Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [] |
| 21:23 | -!- | roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd |
| 21:26 | -!- | Mks [~mks@c83-176-234-98.cust.tele2.se] has quit [] |
| 21:41 | -!- | dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 21:41 | -!- | Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 22:09 | -!- | roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 22:44 | -!- | bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] |
| 22:53 | -!- | douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-52-53.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| --- | Log | closed Sun Jun 19 00:00:00 2011 |