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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-06-19

---Logopened Sun Jun 19 00:00:00 2011
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02:00<JVassie>mornin
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02:06<andythenorth>bonjorno
02:26<@planetmaker>moin
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03:22<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:27<@planetmaker>hallo Terkhen
03:38<andythenorth>hi Terkhen
03:46<George>Hi. ECS users ask me about FS#4366 - what are possibilities for it to be solved?
03:48<andythenorth>something like that was discussed before
03:48<andythenorth>but no patch
03:48<@planetmaker>it would need a gui similar to NewObjects
03:48<@planetmaker>or at least that's an option
03:49<@planetmaker>but... IMHO then we need preview sprites for all default industries as well
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03:56<@planetmaker>but maybe there are other options. I don't know
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04:02*Alberth would like preview sprites for industries, it'd make the 'fund industry' so much better
04:02<George>I do not mean that solution should be done like I wrote. I mean we need some solution for a handy build of objects, whou have landscape restrictins. Flat land is a restriction too. Currently we have some bad industry placement on mountains maps
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04:34<andythenorth>George: frosch or eddi proposed a cb for terraforming
04:34<andythenorth>it would need to return relative heights and slopes for each tile for each layout
04:35<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember doing anything like this
04:35<andythenorth>must have been someone else then :)
04:35<George>Relative? Absolute would be much easier
04:36<andythenorth>??
04:36<andythenorth>I think we must confuse terms :)
04:36<George>or relative means not relative to current landscape, but relative to flat land?
04:36<andythenorth>you don't intend to specify 'only build this tile at height 1'
04:36<andythenorth>relative to N tile of industry would be most obvious I guess
04:36<George>no, I mean do I need a huge callback to analise current landscape or not
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04:37<andythenorth>no
04:37<andythenorth>you just tell the heights / slopes you need for each tile
04:37<andythenorth>game tries to provide those
04:37<George>then relative is fine (relative to flat land)
04:37<andythenorth>if it can't create layout, then building fails
04:38<George>ok
04:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i have a suggestion for "simplified" firs economy: remove aluminium, textiles, milk, scrap metal and building materials [replace with goods], make each farm only produce one cargo [grain, sugar, livestock]
04:38<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: put it in the thread or ticket?
04:38<George>It should allow both + and - according to flat land
04:38<andythenorth>sounds fine - I'm about to go out though
04:39<George>andythenorth: And when he plans to provide such CB?
04:39<andythenorth>I don't know that he does :P
04:39<andythenorth>it was a suggestion only
04:39<George>any topic on the forums?
04:39<andythenorth>no you could start one
04:39<andythenorth>it's needed especially for things like quarries
04:40<George>Yes
04:40<George>- for mines and + for tourist centres :)
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04:41<andythenorth>wrt industry previews - I think they're unrelated to this issue
04:41<andythenorth>they don't add anything imo
04:41<andythenorth>but that's not what you're ticket was about anyway George ?
04:42<George>my FS was about the possibility for map generator to place tourists industry. Nothing else :)
04:43<andythenorth>could probably get the result into a byte
04:44<andythenorth>one nibble with 0-F for relative height to N tile
04:44<andythenorth>8 is 'same as N tile'
04:44<andythenorth>one nibble is stuffed with slope data - not sure if it fits though
04:44<andythenorth>slopes might not fit
04:45<andythenorth>meh
04:45<andythenorth>I am no good at that kind of stuff
04:45*andythenorth -> takes the baby out to the museum
04:45<andythenorth>bbl
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04:55<@Alberth>George: if you work relative to the highest or lowest point, you only need +
04:57<George>Alberth: I know, but how would a mine look like? It would be some rised land on a plato with a pit in the middle
04:57<George>does not look well
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04:57<George>mine should look like a pit on the plato
04:59<George>anyway, I doub any industry would use value above +8 or below -8, so a signed int result should be fine
04:59<Rubidium>but till what extent must the land be exactly like the heightmap?
05:00<Rubidium>e.g. you say it must be completely flat, like an airport, so it must be completely leveled... however, an airport can be built on slightly not-so-leveled terrain
05:00<Eddi|zuHause>"min" and "max" values?
05:00<Rubidium>it'll just use foundations
05:01<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: then you'd have say 0, -1 for each of the airport tiles for this to work
05:02<Rubidium>but... what if 90% is at -1, then the few remaining are "above" the place where the heightmap would be
05:03<Rubidium>unless you say it must be at X when foundations are laid, but that may wreak havoc when the industry draws without foundations
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05:05<Eddi|zuHause>hm, there must be separate ways to decide "raw" map shape or "with foundation" map shape
05:05<Eddi|zuHause>neuschwanstein would check the "raw" shape, and an airport would check the "with foundation" map shape
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05:07<Rubidium>and then there's the question from which point to calculate the heights
05:07<Rubidium>one would say 0,0 of the industry, but if I'm not mistaken that might be empty
05:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes, north corner should be the right origin. each position could get also a "don't care" value
05:09<Rubidium>but what if 0,0 is such a don't care value?
05:09<Rubidium>should a nearby hill, where you don't build on, influence the height to build the industry?
05:10<Eddi|zuHause>that's a problem for the newgrf author to solve?
05:10<Rubidium>e.g. the shape could be right, but due to that nearby hill it's 1 tile too low, and so you can't build it
05:26<Eddi|zuHause>err... something's not right with the spreadsheet
05:27<Eddi|zuHause>i'd call it a "desync"
05:30<@planetmaker>hm?
05:30<@planetmaker>in what way, Eddi|zuHause ?
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>my sheet says "saved 12 hours ago/saving", and when i open it in another browser, it looks totally different (someone re-sorted it in the mean time)
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>and the additions i made are now at the wrong places
05:32<@planetmaker>that sounds nasty
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05:35<@planetmaker>are you sure we need both epochs, 3 and 4?
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>that's more of a "common standard"
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05:41<Eddi|zuHause>if you tell anyone involved with railways you're talking about epoche 4, he'll know exactly what you're talking about
05:42<@planetmaker>interesting. Never heart that before ;-)
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>"epoche 0" is a bit of a stretch, though ;)
05:42*Rubidium doesn't have a clue either
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoche_(Modelleisenbahn)
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05:58<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: that is as official as it gets: http://www.morop.org/de/normes/nem800_d.pdf http://www.morop.org/de/normes/nem806d_d.pdf
05:58<@planetmaker>:-)
06:00<Eddi|zuHause>most notable difference between epoche 3 and epoche 4 is the engine numbers (BR 110 instead of BR E10, etc.)
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06:04<JVassie>hi guys
06:04<JVassie>new sheet?
06:05<JVassie>planetmaker: Eddi|zuHause
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: why?
06:06<JVassie>there is a new sheet
06:06<JVassie>someones working on
06:06<JVassie>wondering what its for?
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea what you're talking about
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>ah, there
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>timeline is especially useful for the "core" set
06:20<@planetmaker>that's what I'd like to add there only
06:21<JVassie>planetmaker: whats the plan for it matE?
06:21<JVassie>oh
06:21<JVassie>is that to charter what weve got in the set so far?
06:22<JVassie>oh i see
06:22<JVassie>picking the core set to cover the spans
06:28<JVassie>planetmaker: V200 is express pax too, no?
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: different V200
06:28<JVassie>full name of this V200 so i can check up on it pls?
06:28<JVassie>BR220?
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>V200 (west) == express passengers, V200 (east) = cargo
06:29<JVassie>do they look the same?
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>no
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>completely different
06:29<JVassie>kk ill look
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>V200 (east) is a russian model
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>M62(?)
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>one of those
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06:30<JVassie>http://www.flickr.com/photos/sunhiller/5616428890/
06:30<JVassie>see what you mean
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR-Baureihe_V_200
06:30<JVassie>Baureihe just means class right?
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>yes
06:31<JVassie>:)
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>V means Verbrennungsmotor (combustion engine)
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>and 200 means 2000PS
06:32<JVassie>ah ok
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>(2000hp)
06:32<JVassie>an express loco for the 50s would be good planetmaker; E10 perhaps?
06:32<JVassie>its quite a famous loco
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>yes, quite definitely
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>list of engines is by no means complete yet
06:33<@planetmaker>I didn't make any choice, but relied on eddi's markings ;-)
06:33<@planetmaker>and that was clear to me, yes :-)
06:33<JVassie>ah ok
06:33<JVassie>picking the ones marked core already
06:33<JVassie>no drama :)
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>but i gtg now
06:34<JVassie>no worries
06:34<@planetmaker>well, as said: I've not much clue about the different engines
06:34<@planetmaker>I might when I see an image recognize some. I just did copy&paste...
06:34<JVassie>some Swiss/Austrian stuff would look good too
06:34<JVassie>no worries planetmaker ;)
06:34<@planetmaker>feel free to make a choice on some additional core engines
06:35<@planetmaker>(IMHO). Dunno what Eddi|zuHause thinks ;-)
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>feel also free to add swiss/austrian engines ;)
06:35<JVassie>especially like the ETR470
06:35<JVassie>that goes to stuttgart i know for sure
06:35<JVassie>(or used to when i was on it last)
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>also we should include czech and polish engines
06:36<JVassie>should we limit it to cross border stuff or?
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>no
06:36<JVassie>perhaps cross border for limited core stuff
06:36<JVassie>but include much more in the extended set
06:36<JVassie>we need a definition for core I think
06:36<JVassie>unless we have one already
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>i'd imagine a choice list like: "Epoche 1: none/prussia/saxony/bavaria/austria/all"
06:37<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: has one ;-)
06:37<JVassie>Eddi needs adding to the team on devzone
06:37<@planetmaker>indeed
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: don't worry about "core" for now, just add engines ;)
06:37<JVassie>:D
06:37<JVassie>yessir!
06:38<JVassie>need to fidn out about these new SBB double deck IC/IR sets
06:38<JVassie>*find
06:39<@planetmaker>added you on the devzone, too, Eddi|zuHause
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>a choice like this for each of the epochs
06:39<JVassie>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stock_used_by_Swiss_Federal_Railways
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>like "Epoche 3: none/west germany/east germany/austria/poland/all"
06:40<JVassie>is that the core definition?
06:40<JVassie>sounds good
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06:40<Eddi|zuHause>for each of these settings, there should be enough engines in the "core" set to be useful
06:41<JVassie>aye reckon so
06:41<JVassie>ooh
06:41<JVassie>http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/bombardier-wins-sbb-double-deck-train-order.html
06:41<JVassie>very jazzy :D
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>so if you concentrate on "austria", ignore all engines that have "company" set to "DB" or "DR"
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>only take those set to "ÖBB"
06:42<JVassie>uh huh
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>or "BBÖ" before it was restructured
06:42<JVassie>http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/db-orders-double-deck-trains-for-long-distance-services.html
06:42<JVassie>DB getting them too
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>so things like the E94, which are used in both regions, set to "DRG,BBÖ"
06:43<JVassie>gotcha
06:43<JVassie>need to investigate the Taurus's
06:43<JVassie>how are we gonna handle regional differences etc
06:43<JVassie>theres been multiple versions
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>minor differences => ignore
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08:04*andythenorth ponders reworking FIRS cargos
08:04<andythenorth>how about Rice?
08:05<execat>How do you enable selling and buying shares?
08:05<execat>In my multiplayer game, that option is grayed out.
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08:08<@Alberth>iirc that is a setting in the advanced options
08:08<@Alberth>server-side :)
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08:09<execat>Alberth: Is it? Lemme check.
08:10<execat>Alberth: Indeed. Thanks :)
08:12<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22602 /branches/1.1/src/settings.cpp: [1.1] -Fix: MSVC compile warning
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08:20<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause, planetmaker: Did you consider different track types akin to http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/attachment.php?aid=2344 yet?
08:22<@planetmaker>michi_cc: not directly
08:23<@planetmaker>The set must be usable IMHO with many track newgrfs
08:23<@planetmaker>trains can be adjusted to make use of them appropriately though, if present
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08:31<+michi_cc>There isn't really anything besides NuTracks though right now that introduces a lot of different track types. And those mostly aren't really different, just another work-around for speed limits. (Not counting MetroTracks and Pikka's tracks here, as they are quite specialized)
08:32<@planetmaker>agreed.
08:32<@planetmaker>Throwing together such track set would be moderately easy
08:32<@planetmaker>Graphics around are abundant, from default tracks, NuTracks and SwedishRails.
08:33<@planetmaker>50% would be c&p from swedishrails
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08:34<andythenorth>there's little mileage in drawing new rail sprites now
08:34<andythenorth>mostly done
08:37<@planetmaker>such set would make sense when this CETS kinda picks up somewhat ;-)
08:38<@planetmaker>with different axle weights
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08:38<+michi_cc>Organizing a track set along axle weight (as mb seems to be planning) makes more sense than a plain speed categorization IMHO, as it gives better opportunity to include similar, yet equally interesting locos in a set.
08:39<Wolf01>miau
08:40<andythenorth>can tracks be used to create priority?
08:40<@Alberth>I know about a wolf in sheeps-cloths, but a cat?
08:40<andythenorth>e.g. low axle load to keep freight trains off two tracks of a four-track route?
08:40<@planetmaker>michi_cc: but then the question is: why not always buy / build the better tracks and run everything there?
08:41*andythenorth hasn't found that much use yet for extra-clever track stuff :|
08:41<andythenorth>electric overhead / 3rd rail makes sense
08:41<andythenorth>and narrow gauge / standard gauge / mixed is an under-developed idea
08:42<+michi_cc>Make them expensive enough so that players who do care have a reason. And players who like to haul coal with maglevs won't care anyway, so those can be ignored.
08:43<@planetmaker>price factor difference of 4 between track types or so... hm
08:44<@planetmaker>still, as money is little reason to do or not do something in most games after 10 years (except with yacd ;-) )
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08:49<andythenorth>there could be eye candy reasons for track sets, but they would be too much trouble to use
08:50<andythenorth>like fenced, unfenced, concrete track, snow sheds etc
08:50<@planetmaker>that's the reason for SER... but of course you can only have one type of fence there. But every you want ;_)
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08:54<George>can someone help with strings with cases? Have a look here please http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=30188&start=1560
08:55<@Yexo>George: the thorn should be before the start of the string, so before the first 9A
08:55<@Yexo>and there should only be one of them per string
08:56<George>could you fix that string to show how should it look like?
08:56<@Yexo>1 * 1 04 0A A4 01 5F DC "Þ" 9A 14 9A 10 01 "bútorgyárat" 9A 11 "Bútorgyár" 9A 12 00 <- something like that
08:57<@Yexo>only 9A is not valid in a unicode string, so you'd have to escape that too
08:58<@Yexo>1 * 1 04 0A A4 01 5F DC "Þ" \UE09A 14 \UE09A 10 01 "bútorgyárat" \UE09A 11 "Bútorgyár" \UE09A 12 00 <- I think like this
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08:59<@Yexo>not sure if you do support ttdpatch, but if you do you'll want to include this string only for openttd, for ttdpach only include the default case
08:59<@Yexo>ie the "Bútorgyár" part
09:01<George>//!!Invalid escape sequence.
09:01<George>// 0 * 0 04 0A A4 01 5F DC "Þ" \UE09A 14 \UE09A 10 01 "bútorgyárat" \UE09A 11 "Bútorgyár" \UE09A 12 00
09:02<George>(NFO renum report)
09:03<andythenorth>http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/GregMcClanahan/20091202/3709/Achievement_Design_101.php
09:03<@planetmaker>yes, the number of " is too large
09:03<@planetmaker>the special chars need to be inside the string
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09:04<Rubidium>George: might it be that \U.... should be within a string?
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09:04<@planetmaker>"Þ\UE09A "14 "\UE09A "10 01 "bútorgyárat \UE09A "11 "Bútorgyár \UE09A "12
09:04<@planetmaker>not sure about the other bytes
09:04<@Yexo>10 * 50 04 0A A4 01 5F DC "Þ\UE09A" 14 "\UE09A" 10 01 "bútorgyárat" "\UE09A" 11 "Bútorgyár" "\UE09A" 12 00 <- that works
09:04<@Yexo>at least for nforenum
09:05<George>1 * 50 04 0A A4 01 5F DC "Þ\UE09A\14\UE09A\10\01bútorgyárat\UE09A\11Bútorgyár\UE09A\12" 00
09:05<@Yexo>that is the same :)
09:05<@Yexo>just written differently
09:10<George>Thank you for help :)
09:10<George>Looks like it works
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09:58<Eddi|zuHause><michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause, planetmaker: Did you consider different track types akin to http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/attachment.php?aid=2344 yet? <-- i wanted to add that column yesterday, but forgot.
09:58<@planetmaker>:-)
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10:06<Eddi|zuHause>you know what's weird? yesterday the spreadsheet thing was in german, today it's in english...
10:06<@planetmaker>different locale of your browser / os?
10:07<valhalla1w>based on my IP google has been bothering to switch to google.{nl,de,fr} the last week -_-
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>nope, nothing changes
10:07<@planetmaker>btw, Eddi|zuHause re E10: there are two optically different versions, the "Kasten" and the "Bügelfalte"
10:08<@planetmaker>but technically they seem to be the same... one engine with longer build period (and possibly varying look), or two?
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: same model, just different graphics
10:08<@planetmaker>good, then we agree
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>i'm unsure about BR 01, BR 01.10 and BR 01.5 though
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10:12<@planetmaker>rather not. Though we might not want to include all - and then it could be a visual change only
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10:27<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: Radsatzfahrmasse: 17,0 t <-- that's the weight important for track type?
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>yes
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streckenklasse <-- potential track types A/B/C/D
10:29<@planetmaker>hm, yes
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>there could separately be versions for low and high speed
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>but not overdo it
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10:34<Eddi|zuHause>A (early, ca. 60km/h), B (normal, electric, ca. 100km/h), C (normal, electric, ca. 140km/h), C' (normal, electric, ca. 200km/h), D (normal, electric, ca. 140 km/h), D' (electric, 350km/h) <-- about 10 track types
10:34<@planetmaker>speed limits on tracks are... a bit boring
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10:34<@planetmaker>engines already limit that
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>could do C' and D' without limit
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>but very expensive
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>limiting freight wagons to certain axle weights may be troublesome
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>but that's the actually interesting part differing between C and D
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>possibly add B and C with 3rd rail
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>while at it: what happened to the two-railtypes-on-one-tile patch?
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10:40<@planetmaker>did it exist?
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>i've seen a screenshot ;)
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>was that from michi_cc?
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11:06<Eddi|zuHause>hm, price factor for railtypes: A: x1, B: x3, Be: x5, C: x9, Ce: x16, C': x32, C'e: x60, D: x32, De: x48, D'e: x196?
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>electrification gets progressively more expensive
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11:10<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: that's IMHO too many track types
11:11<@planetmaker>4 are enough
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>yes. we had this discussion already
11:11<@planetmaker>as one will also need electrification
11:11<@planetmaker>though... not for all. Some will always have it
11:11<@planetmaker>like D
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>could be also a "core" and "extended" set
11:11<@planetmaker>:-D
11:12<@planetmaker>or was your Be as B electified?
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>Be is electrified, yes
11:12<@planetmaker>and what's C' ?
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>C with higher (or no) speed limit
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>the track types in MB's expected track set would be: A, Be, C, C'e and D'e (5 plus transrapid)
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>D and De would only be useful if you also divide cargo wagons by axle weight
11:16<@planetmaker>that to me sounds like a useful choice.
11:16<@planetmaker>Then one can still add narrow gauge, some 3rd rail and maglev
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>3rd rail combined with long distance isn't all that common, so a B3 and C3 would likely suffice
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>some sections of berlin outer ring had 3rd rail on the long distance track
11:18<@planetmaker>yes, not 3rd rail for all. Possibly one 3rd rail suffices even
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>until the outer ring got electrified, then they separated them, like in all other parts of berlin
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think "high speed" 3rd rail is used anywhere in central europe
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=1284&pid=62355#pid62355 <-- the old railtype discussion
11:31<JVassie>hi guys
11:32<@planetmaker>thanks for finding that again, Eddi|zuHause :-)
11:32<@planetmaker>hi JVassie
11:33<JVassie>hows it going?
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11:36<JVassie>also planetmaker / Eddi|zuHause
11:36<JVassie>do we plan tt-forums thread?
11:36<JVassie>*plan a
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: not yet
11:36<@planetmaker>not yet. It doesn't need hot air threads ;-)
11:36<JVassie>:)
11:36<JVassie>indeed not
11:36<@planetmaker>it has plenty
11:37<@planetmaker>of those
11:37<JVassie>yuppers
11:37<JVassie>i was thinking just now about rolling stock
11:37<JVassie>a seperate sheet on the googledoc?
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11:40<JVassie>hey Hyronymus
11:40<Hyronymus>hi Jaime
11:40<JVassie>not seen you on here in a while
11:40<JVassie>Jaime? :p
11:40<Hyronymus>doing fine?
11:41<JVassie>aye not bad thx
11:41<JVassie>yourself?
11:42<Hyronymus>k
11:46<Hyronymus>yexo, planetmaker
11:47<@planetmaker>hi Hyronymus
11:47<Hyronymus>hello
11:47*Hyronymus hopes Yexo is here too
11:47<JVassie>im sure he'll read it later if he aint :)
11:48<Hyronymus>k
11:48<Hyronymus>planetmaker: I've been thinking about providing an NML template library
11:49<Hyronymus>I'm hesitant about it though because my own NML skills are far from adequate
11:49<Hyronymus>but the idea is that literally every n00b can browse through a NML template and choose whatever he/she needs to i.e. code an articulated tram
11:49<@Yexo>hello Hyronymus
11:49<@Yexo>yes, I'm here
11:50<Hyronymus>hi Yexo
11:50<@planetmaker>what do you want to generally template, Hyronymus ?
11:50<Hyronymus>to start with all basic stuff
11:50<@planetmaker>What I can think of are sprite templates
11:50<@planetmaker>like one flat ground tile
11:50<@planetmaker>a normal train
11:50<@planetmaker>a set of ground tiles with all slopes
11:50<@planetmaker>etc
11:50<Hyronymus>yes
11:51<@Yexo>I don't think that will work, since combining different templates will require at least some knowledge about nml
11:51<@planetmaker>along with the corresponding graphics files
11:51<@Yexo>I think the correct way to go would be to create extensive tutorials
11:51<@Yexo>oh, sprite templates do make sense :)
11:51<@planetmaker>but going beyond sprite templates... is, as yexo says, difficult
11:51<@Yexo>sorry, thought you wanted to template the code
11:51<@planetmaker>it's then taylored to the individual grf
11:51<@Alberth>perhaps make documented examples instead?
11:52<@Yexo>if that were possible it'd be a higher level of abstractions and we'd have tried to implement that in nml already
11:52<Hyronymus>hang on
11:52<@planetmaker>:-) yeah
11:52<@planetmaker>well, if it weren't possible, there'd be no need for templates like we use now in our sets, Yexo ;-)
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11:53<@planetmaker>but... those are all relatively specific
11:53<Hyronymus>I'm mixing things up
11:53<@Yexo>those are specific for each grf, not general for all grfs
11:53<@planetmaker>yes... though the autofence template could be re-used
11:54<@planetmaker>as part of other tile layouts
11:54<Hyronymus>isn't it possible to create a code teamplate for lets say steam engines?
11:54<@planetmaker>(and leave the authors puzzled why the grf crashes in OpenTTD 1.1.x :-P)
11:54<@Yexo>Hyronymus: a basic template? sure
11:54<Hyronymus>yes, a basic template
11:54<@Yexo>but as soon as you want anything customized you'll have to implement that as extra
11:55<@Alberth>and you have to explain the template anyways somewhere
11:55<Hyronymus>well, customization as in a tender seems fairly standard to me, right
11:55<@planetmaker>Hyronymus: a basic 'template' is just a simple code example
11:55<@planetmaker>but creating that as a form of tutorial would be great
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>Hyronymus: i'd not say you need a "template" (in the nml sense), but a "code generator" (in the IDE sense)
11:55<Hyronymus>that would be even greater, Eddi|zuHause
11:55<@planetmaker>:-D
11:55<Hyronymus>but way above my head
11:56<Hyronymus>*over my head
11:56<Hyronymus>or whatever the expression is in English
11:56<Hyronymus>:D
11:56<@Yexo>Hyronymus: something like this but with additional explanations? https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/entry/regression/006_vehicle.nml
11:57<Hyronymus>yes, I was looking for that example
11:58<@planetmaker>Yexo: do we want those examples in a) NML documentation b) the tt-wiki c) as regression test?
11:58<@Yexo>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/entry/regression/013_train_callback.nml Bigger example with a callback for the capacity and different grahpics per cargo type
11:58<@planetmaker>d) something else?
11:58<@Yexo>a) only minimal examples in the nml documentation, it's meant to be reference documentation
11:58<@planetmaker>:-D I must have some nearly verbatim copy from ogfx+trains there ;-)
11:58<@Yexo>c) regression test should test small portions of code, something like 013 is not really appropriate
11:59<@Yexo>so tt-wiki seems to be a good place
11:59<Hyronymus>tt-wiki would do indeed
12:00<Hyronymus>also since the grf stuff is there too
12:01<@planetmaker>alternatively it could of course also go to the development section of the openttd wiki
12:01<@Yexo>tt-wiki is more fitting
12:01<@planetmaker>^ I tend to agree, though
12:01<@Yexo>nfo tutorials would also fit there, it keeps everything in one place
12:02<Hyronymus>how much will it be to set it up?
12:02<@planetmaker>setup what?
12:02<@planetmaker>a wiki page is easy to create ;-)
12:03<Hyronymus>the wiki frame on tt-wiki
12:03<@planetmaker>what frame?
12:03<Hyronymus>uhm
12:03<Hyronymus>boy
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12:03<Hyronymus>never had so much problem explaining myelf :P
12:04*Hyronymus blames the beer
12:04<@planetmaker>:-D
12:04<@planetmaker>I'd say: Just start with it
12:04<Hyronymus>how much time will it take to put such more detailed examples on the tt-wiki
12:04<@planetmaker>a table of contents of NML tutorials will follow naturally what is there
12:04<Hyronymus>hah, I managed :P
12:05<@planetmaker>Dunno? How long does it take you? ;-)
12:05<Hyronymus>looking at the Dutch Trainset development: long
12:05<@planetmaker>:-)
12:07<Hyronymus>looking at how to work with a Wiki
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>you mean typing your new page name in the link and clicking on "yes, create new page here"?
12:09<Hyronymus>sst
12:09<Hyronymus>:p
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12:15<@Yexo>planetmaker: the sidebar on http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/ has a link to "Tutorial" which still links to wiki.ttdpatch.net, while those pages are already copied to http://tt-wiki.net/
12:21<@planetmaker>fixed
12:22<Hyronymus>http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Nml
12:24<@planetmaker>Hyronymus: == indicates headings
12:24<@planetmaker>== heading name ==
12:24<Hyronymus>right
12:26<Hyronymus>hmm
12:26<Hyronymus>double heading now :o
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12:30<@planetmaker>The page name is always the first an upper most heading
12:31<Hyronymus>I see
12:31<Hyronymus>I now moved it to NMLTutorial
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12:31<Hyronymus>I saw lakie did that for GRFTutorial once
12:31<frosch123>Hyronymus: add a category right from the start
12:33<Hyronymus>uhm, will try frosch123
12:34<Hyronymus>done
12:34<frosch123>planetmaker: the tutorial page which is linked now, seems to be something copletely different than the old tutorials
12:35<JVassie><Yexo> I think the correct way to go would be to create extensive tutorials
12:35<@Yexo>yes, correct link would be http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/GRFTutorial
12:35<@planetmaker>[[Category:NML]] @ Hyronymus
12:35<JVassie>I do plan to help on that front
12:35<JVassie>:p
12:35<@Yexo>however that page misses a table of contents
12:35<@planetmaker>Yexo: frosch123 I looked at both pages. The current one seems the better link to me
12:35<@Yexo>JVassie: great, you have a starting point now: http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial
12:35<JVassie>woo \o/
12:35<frosch123>planetmaker: ah, sorry, the page just lacks links to the subpages
12:36<Hyronymus>it misses real content, not just the table
12:36<@Yexo>planetmaker: right, didn't look to closely, Tutorials links back to GRFTutorial, so it's fine :)
12:36<Hyronymus>:P
12:36<JVassie>Yexo: I might put up a 'my first train in NML' tutorial tonight
12:36<frosch123>planetmaker: http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/GRFTutorial vs. http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Tutorials
12:37<@planetmaker>yes... I noticed the "sprite drawing" and the "grf tutorial" - which both IMHO is important.
12:38<frosch123>but presignals, not exactly :p
12:38<@planetmaker>:-)
12:38<@planetmaker>that's the measurement error
12:38<frosch123>how about moving drawingsprites to GRFTutorials?
12:38<frosch123>and only link GrfTutorials froms the specs?
12:38<@planetmaker>that's a solution, too
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12:39<frosch123>(besided GRFTutorials lacks links to all tutorials)
12:40<JVassie>can newgrfs access the current game's difficulty settings?
12:41<@planetmaker>yes
12:41<JVassie>so setting runnign costs based on those is possible?
12:41<JVassie>*running
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12:42<@Yexo>possible, yes, good idea, not sure
12:42<JVassie>hmm
12:42<JVassie>something to think about perhaps
12:42<JVassie>also btw
12:42<@Yexo>when you want to play without AIs for example you difficulty level must be custom
12:42<JVassie>with our idea of core/extended
12:42<Hyronymus>how do I setup a category page
12:42<JVassie>those will be controlled by parameters right?
12:42<@Yexo>Hyronymus: click the link and than click edit at the top
12:43<@Yexo>JVassie: yes
12:43<JVassie>I presume we will actually provide the option of None too?
12:43<JVassie>so None/Core/Extended
12:43<@Yexo>what would be the point of that?
12:43<JVassie>so if people dotn want trains from Czech
12:43<JVassie>*republic
12:43<JVassie>they dont have to include them
12:43<nostradamus>guys i just have chosen an invalid resoluton and cant see the game now. How do i change it in my registry?
12:44<@Yexo>nostradamus: read readme.txt section 4.2, find openttd.cfg and fix it in there
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>type alt+enter in the game to switch to windowed mode
12:45<@Yexo>most likely place: My Documents\OpenTTD\openttd.cfg
12:45<nostradamus>danke eddi ;) thx to yexo as well
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12:50<@planetmaker>[18:35] planetmaker [[Category:NML]] @ Hyronymus
12:51<@planetmaker>JVassie: I don't really like to depend things on the difficulty settings
12:51<@planetmaker>it complicates things a lot and makes testing a BIG PAIN
12:51<@planetmaker>and I'm not sure it adds anything
12:51<@planetmaker>rather direct parameters IMHO
12:56<Ammler>maybe you can have different "defaults" for the parameters depending on difficulty settings...
13:00<@planetmaker>I'm not sure that's possible
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13:00<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: the thought was like this, eg. if you want to play a silesia scenario, you choose "Set: core", "Epoche 1: prussian railway", "Epoche 2: DRG", "Epoche 3: PKP"
13:01<Hyronymus>nice idea
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>if you play a DDR scenario, you choose e.g "Set: core", "Epoche 1: none", "Epoche 2: none", "Epoche 3: DR"
13:02<frosch123>planetmaker: was there any result in the callback template? http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Template:Callback vs. http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Template:CB
13:02<Hyronymus>can different epoches have different cost multipliers
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>Hyronymus: why would that be necessary?
13:03<frosch123>i don't like the abbreviation of CB as it does not really make stuff shorter with so many parameters, but i have no opinion on the format
13:03<@planetmaker>frosch123: yours seems slightly more elaborate, mine a sub-set of yours. Thus Template:Callback would seem like the choice.
13:03<Hyronymus>not necessairy
13:03<Hyronymus>but it might make gameplay after 50 years harder
13:03<frosch123>should we install the parser extention to make use of #if for conditional display of rows?
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>Hyronymus: there is inflation for that
13:04<@planetmaker>oh, that's not default?
13:04<@planetmaker>that'd be nice then
13:04<frosch123>apparently now :)
13:04<frosch123>orudge: we need the parser extention, please :)
13:04<Hyronymus>inflation doesn't matter much to large companies though
13:04<@planetmaker>:-)
13:04<frosch123>damns, s/now/not/
13:04<Hyronymus>but I think that requires a different approach
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>Hyronymus: if you want to be really evil, you can use the running cost callback to increase for older engines
13:05<@planetmaker>:-)
13:05<@planetmaker>double every 10 years
13:05<Hyronymus>some people on the forums believe I invented evil
13:05<Hyronymus>so bring it on :P
13:05<@planetmaker>didn't you?
13:05*planetmaker hides
13:05*Hyronymus points to his parents
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>Hyronymus: i think it's a little early to decide this stuff, though
13:06<Hyronymus>possaibly
13:06<Hyronymus>*possibly
13:09<@planetmaker>quite so. IMHO the further path would now be: get list of engines for the core set, get the sprites, get the engines (and wagons?) into the game in a somewhat 'basic' way.
13:10<@planetmaker>Then start adding the advanced things.
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>there are only a handful of different wagons, most can probably be done with recolouring
13:10<@planetmaker>yes. Recolouring will hopefully soon be no issue
13:11<@planetmaker>Currently I have a bit trouble to use all 256 recolour sprites :-)
13:11<@planetmaker>at least in random varaction2
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>i think the company colours are probably not right for recolouring, need custom masks
13:15<@planetmaker>well. Feasible as well. Will be interesting, though, I've never done that before
13:16<@Yexo>planetmaker: I don't think Eddi|zuHause means recolouring in the grf, I think he means manual recolouring of the sprites in an image editing program
13:16<@planetmaker>maybe :-)
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: well, could be one or the other...
13:18<andythenorth>moar wagons!
13:18<@planetmaker>indeed I'd like to test custom re-colouring at one date...
13:18<andythenorth>moar = better :D
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>scale: i propose 24m = 16lu (1 tile)
13:19<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: all look alike to what? :P
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: all ships :p
13:20*andythenorth lulz :|
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: like "all chinese people look alike" :p
13:20*andythenorth subscribes to newsletter called "why bother" :D
13:21<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: that means articulated engines for the steamers
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>yes, most things need articulation, and longwagon-ish handling
13:21<andythenorth>fwiw, FISH appears to have accidentally been draw to scale of 1px = 2 feet in length ( - view)
13:22<andythenorth>this was not a conscious choice
13:22<andythenorth>a certain amount of post-rationalisation may have happened :P
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 2*64*12*2.54
13:22<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 3901.44
13:22<frosch123>http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/ThingsToDo <- impressive page.... does that mean tt-wiki is actually older than the ttdpatch wiki?
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so 1 tile = 39m?
13:23<frosch123>hmm, nvm, seems that page is importet from ttdpatch wiki
13:24<frosch123>makes it interesting nevertheless though
13:25<frosch123>setting up the ttdpatch wiki in 2004 resulted in the same todo items than setting up the new wiki today :)
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>not that there would be any use in scaling railways to ships, though ;)
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: everything repeats itself
13:25-!-Hyronymus is now known as Hyr|away
13:26<@planetmaker>lol
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the steam engines in dbset are already 1 tile long
13:27<@planetmaker>ah... back to start for Hyr|away it seems: "- Write tutorials for pre-signals, for the new graphics features and perhaps other things"
13:27<JVassie>back
13:28<@planetmaker>also in NARS / UKRS
13:28<andythenorth>@calc 30 / 50
13:28<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 0.6
13:28<andythenorth>@calc 50/30
13:28<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 1.66666666667
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>main problem in those sets is that the (passenger) wagons are not to scale
13:28<andythenorth>NARS 2 is 1 px per 1.6 feet
13:28<andythenorth>approx
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 1.6*64*12*2.54
13:28<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 3121.152
13:28<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: they're too short?
13:29<frosch123>[19:27] <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the steam engines in dbset are already 1 tile long <- excluding the tender
13:29<frosch123>and iirc some extent towards the front
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i was under the impression LüP would be including tender
13:31<andythenorth>sometimes a bit of selective compression is good
13:32<andythenorth>the game looks better when it's got a toylike aspect
13:32<andythenorth>one of the better things about 32bpp (there aren't many) is the compressed trains
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the toy-like aspect won't go away
13:37<JVassie>@calc 440+470+470+395+470
13:37<@DorpsGek>JVassie: 2245
13:37<JVassie>@calc 350+340+420
13:37<@DorpsGek>JVassie: 1110
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>a BR01 is around 24m, and a UIC-Y wagon is also around 24m (UIC-X around 26m). yet the BR01 is twice as long as any wagon
13:38<JVassie>lul
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13:39<JVassie>@calc 187+27+865
13:39<@DorpsGek>JVassie: 1079
13:42<JVassie>planetmaker, Eddi|zuHause
13:42<JVassie>were gonna need to charter which locos had which liveries and when
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: that should be easy, livery is mostly defined by company and date
13:43<@planetmaker>currently they will all have exactly one livery ;-)
13:43<JVassie>pfft
13:44<@planetmaker>but yes, they're very easy to add
13:44<JVassie>and we need a schema for passenger wagons :p
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22603 /trunk/src/lang/korean.txt:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: korean - 5 changes by telk5093
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>get the engines first
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13:46<Eddi|zuHause>Parameter: "livery defined by: build date/servicing date/current date"?
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13:47<JVassie>nice idea Eddi|zuHause
13:48<JVassie>is it possible I presume?
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>it should be...
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>servicing date might need a "long format" version
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise it won't work before 1920
13:49<JVassie>My preference would be build date
13:49<JVassie>speaking of which
13:49<JVassie>its possible to force a wagon to keep the same livery no matter the current year?
13:49<JVassie>even if it enters a depot?
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13:50<andythenorth>liveries are over-rated :P
13:50<andythenorth>2CC
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13:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: liveries are half the fun...
13:51<JVassie>exactly
13:51<JVassie>beign able to mix and match liveries on traisn in later years is awesome
13:51<andythenorth>I pity the fool
13:51<andythenorth>who has to draw them :P
13:51<andythenorth>drawing sucks
13:52<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: the "last service" won't work before 1920 indeed
13:52<@planetmaker>and after 2090 or so
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13:53<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: if you set parameter to "build date", then it won't change livery on entering depot
13:53<JVassie>woo
13:53<JVassie>and thats for wagons too, correct?
13:53<@planetmaker>wagons and engines are no difference really
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i'm quite certain we won't introduce new liveries after 2090 :p
13:54<@planetmaker>:-)
13:54<JVassie>:D
13:54<JVassie>awesome
13:56<JVassie>Eddi, another thought
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13:57<JVassie>how do livery overrides (by locomotive) and livery refits, come into your scheme?
13:57<@planetmaker>obviously for the MUs
13:58<@planetmaker>Livery refit... as drawn and sensible
13:58<@planetmaker>but IMHO that's details TBD later
13:58<JVassie>gotcha
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13:59<@planetmaker>thus the MUs will need special PAX wagons
13:59<@planetmaker>but well... maybe :-)
14:00<@planetmaker>it's just adding a few more lines
14:00<JVassie>hehe
14:01<@planetmaker>I'm looking forward to the long wagon thingy ;-)
14:01<JVassie>whats hte plan re: that?
14:01<JVassie><Eddi|zuHause> a BR01 is around 24m, and a UIC-Y wagon is also around 24m (UIC-X around 26m). yet the BR01 is twice as long as any wagon
14:01<@planetmaker>1-tile wagons
14:02<@planetmaker>eddi has some code for that
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=53511
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14:07<JVassie>interesting
14:08<JVassie>this would obviously have to apply to MU engines too
14:09<JVassie>which are more often than not the same (+/- a tiny amount) size as the wagons
14:12<JVassie>2x size pax cars look weird! :p
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14:45<Hyronymus>w00t
14:45<Hyronymus>added a TOC to the NML wiki
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15:07*__ln__ saw a flying dutchman
15:13<Hyronymus>lies
15:14<__ln__>honest
15:15*Hyronymus denies everything
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15:22<__ln__>he was on an F-16
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15:45<Eddi|zuHause>so you didn't actually "see" him while flying.
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16:10<Wolf01>'night
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17:30<dihedral>must have some wrong code somewhere: * null (~grapes@dslb-188-099-242-126.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #channel
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>BR 119 - rumänische Grossdiesellok (23. August) [mit erhöhter Schadenshäufigkeit :cool:] <- lmao :p
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17:44<@Terkhen>good night
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17:52<dihedral>night
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18:54<JVassie>hai guys
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---Logclosed Mon Jun 20 00:00:01 2011