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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-06-20

---Logopened Mon Jun 20 00:00:01 2011
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00:54<Scaevolus>Is there some way to specify different sprites for different zoom levels? I'd like to make water stop flashing at the farthest zoom level
00:55<Rubidium>not yet'
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02:37<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:04<dihedral>good morning
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05:14<@peter1138>yes, you are
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05:27<JVassie>hi Eddi|zuHause
05:27<JVassie>are we planning to be as extensive with OBB as we are with DR/DB/DBAG?
05:36<dihedral>thank you peter1138, i'll take that as a compliment ^^
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06:30<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: if you take out all DRG/DB engines, ÖBB needs to be a complete playable set
06:32<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, JVassie would we want a parameter for each epoch and 'region'?
06:32<@planetmaker>Or just epoch1: none/core/all
06:32<@planetmaker>rather epoch 1+2
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: each epoch would get a parameter for the region: none/prussia/saxony/bavaria/austria/all
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>or similar
06:33<@planetmaker>and then epoch 3-5 West, East, Austrian separate in none, core and extended?
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>or, each company in an individual grf
06:33<@planetmaker>that's quite a huge parameter matrix
06:34<@planetmaker>each company a separate NewGRF... not sure
06:34<@planetmaker>at least not for the old one where there's not too many (afaik). Maybe I'm wrong
06:35<@Terkhen>lots of trains? :P
06:35<@planetmaker>Terkhen: none / core / all ;-)
06:35<@planetmaker>with core = default IMHO
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>individual grfs would be the most flexible
06:35<@planetmaker>yes. But a NewGRF with like 5 engines... that's a PITA, too
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>each GRF covers an area of ~40 years, with about 10 (core) to 20 (extended) engines
06:37<@planetmaker>yes... But for each of those companies?
06:37<@planetmaker>I think that's too many NewGRFs. And too many engines then as 'core'
06:38<@planetmaker>It's like... 6 NewGRFs * 2 to 3 epochs
06:38<@planetmaker>or more
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>each company needs its own "core" set
06:39<@planetmaker>I don't think so.
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>i do.
06:39<@planetmaker>For the early ones it IMHO would be better to merge a few companies
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't make a lot of sense to mix companies
06:41<@planetmaker>like Saxonian and Wurtembergian each an extra set? Nah...
06:41<@planetmaker>It makes sense for DRG, DR (East), DB (West) and maybe DBAG
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>they have not really anything in common
06:41<@Yexo>what about having 1 parameter per epoch with values: none / core / all / only prussia / only saxony / only bavaria / only austria ?
06:42<@Yexo>that would make 5 parameters in total (assuming 5 epochs)
06:42<@planetmaker>that's something which I though
06:42<@planetmaker>But probably it's better then to use two parameters:
06:43<@planetmaker>epchoX: none, all / only XY / only YZ / ...
06:43<@planetmaker>and 'use core / extended' as separate one
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>core/extended would be a global option applying to all epochs
06:44<@Yexo>say you only want prussia engines in epoch 1
06:44<@Yexo>would there be a difference between core and all?
06:44<@planetmaker>epoch1: only prussia
06:44<@planetmaker>epoch != 1: none
06:44<@planetmaker>engines: all
06:44<@planetmaker>maybe, yes
06:45<@Yexo>I'd rather say we make the grf have enough engines per company to make it usable but not more.
06:45<@planetmaker>I guess it depends on what engines people dig out from the past and which get drawn ;-)
06:45<@Yexo>than if you enable multiple companies there would be very similar engines, so "core" would mean only one of the similar ones
06:45<@planetmaker>initially I'm all for not going for the extended thing
06:46<@planetmaker>it's (at least initially) enough drawing work to get all base engines for each region and epoch done
06:46<@planetmaker>not to speak of the wagons
06:47<@Yexo>planetmaker: but if epoch 1 is useful with only prussia engines, but also useful with only saxony engines, there is bound to be very similar engines in the prussia en saxony sets
06:47<@planetmaker>yes, that's probably true
06:47<@Yexo>which means enabling both prussia and saxony leads to duplicate engines
06:47<@planetmaker>but it means you can play a nice scenario :-)
06:47<@Yexo>so I think "core" should only select one of the two engines in case that happens
06:47<@Yexo>"all" could then select both
06:48<@Yexo>so "all" would just be a combination of all engines that can also be found using other options, just not at the same time
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>another category: "mix", "core", "ext": each company has an individually playable "core", and one of the similar ones through all companies will get "mix" flag
06:48<@planetmaker>probably a good choice
06:49<@planetmaker>on a tangent: Eddi|zuHause, you should sweet talk mb into your new track scheme. I like it and it makes sense and is not that difficult to support
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>so when choosing "core" and "all" as parameter, only the "mix" engines appear
06:49<@planetmaker>though NML will need either parameters to accept LABELS or it needs a num2tring function ;-)
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>when choosing "core" and "only X", then the "core" engines will appear
06:50<@planetmaker>yes, makes sense
06:51<@Yexo>planetmaker: yes, railtypetable support in nml needs more work
06:51<@planetmaker>not really. AFAIK it only needs num2string.
06:51<@planetmaker>Hold on for the code ;-)
06:52<@planetmaker> <-- so that we remember
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>NFO doesn't care whether the label is an integer or 4 characters
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06:53<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: but nfo doesn't store the label and assign the index in the table as value for later reference
06:54<@planetmaker> <-- railtype checks for this set
06:55<@planetmaker>and engines would get their natural track assigned one of the classes you, Eddi|zuHause, defined
06:55<@planetmaker>that file as is compiles
06:55<@planetmaker>but assigning the tracktype_classA (or other) to a train in the action0 block will still fail
06:56<@planetmaker>and I failed (long ago, though) to implement a reasonable num2string routine in NML
06:57<@Yexo>planetmaker: I was thinking of letting nml support something like this:
06:57<@Yexo>only the first id of each line would be useful in the code
06:58<@Yexo>so if you use EMED and EMED was not available i'd be rewritten to DBbe and if that wasn't available either to ELRL
06:58<@planetmaker>interesting idea. Would be nice
06:58<@planetmaker>I'd switch the DBXY and NuTracks labels though ;-)
06:59<@planetmaker>probably like [DBan, RLOW, RAIL] is easier to implement than the given syntax?
06:59<@Yexo>was just a quick example
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07:21<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: how about if railtype translation table works like this: "INTERNAL_LABEL: LABEL1 => LABEL2 => LABEL3 ..."
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07:21<Eddi|zuHause>then "INTERNAL_LABEL" would be completely separate
07:22<@Yexo>that looks good
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07:22<@Yexo>INTERNAL_LABEL: [LABEL1, LABEL2, LABEL3], would be more consistent with the rest of the syntax though
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>that's fine ;)
07:25<@planetmaker>yes, that's probably a very good solution
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: at that point, the labels should probably be "ABCD", and not ABCD
07:37<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: they can already be both
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08:23<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: naming scheme: i propose "initial name (company/region, new name(s))"
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. "Baureihe S3 (preuß., BR 13.0)"
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>or "Baureihe E10 (DB, BR 110)"
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>or "Baureihe E94 (DRG, BR 194 (DB), BR 254 (DR))"
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08:26<Eddi|zuHause>(they also had an ÖBB-number, which i would need to look up)
08:27<@peter1138>who what where why when?
08:28<Alpaca>I seem unable to alter the GRF sets in any of my scenarios, anyone else had this problem? (1.1.1)
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>Alpaca: that is intended.
08:29<@planetmaker>I'm fine with that naming scheme, Eddi|zuHause
08:29<@Yexo>Alpaca: see
08:29<Alpaca>is there a way around it? I made a world map with about 250 towns on a heightmap that need placing and naming, but the GRFs need tweaking
08:29<@peter1138>you replacing dbset or something?
08:29<@planetmaker>Alpaca, no newgrf change will name your towns
08:29<Eddi|zuHause>or something ;)
08:30<@planetmaker>or something, indeed ;-)
08:30<@peter1138>what something
08:31<@planetmaker>peter1138, if it were a baby we would still be having sex ;-)
08:31<@planetmaker>sorry for the bad metaphor :-P
08:31<@peter1138>SOUNDS GOOD TO ME
08:31<@planetmaker>but thus we don't yet quite know what. But... let's call it 'Central European Train Set'
08:32<@peter1138>LET'S TALK ABOUT SETS, BABY
08:33<@peter1138>(god that was a terrible song)
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>haha :p
08:33<Noldo>unions and intersections?
08:34<@peter1138>oh damn, CETS, o/c
08:38<Alpaca>found the solution (eventually), thanks! Now I don't have to remake maps to tweak sets
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08:46<Eddi|zuHause>hm... sorting for "T##" values is rubbish...
08:48<@planetmaker>what "T##" values?
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>"short name" column
08:53<@planetmaker>the 'normal' BR would need that: a 'BR'. But probably even then it won't get much more usable
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09:14<JVassie>this buisness of epochs and parameters is confusing
09:14<JVassie>can we use a parameter as a bit mask?
09:17<JVassie>also planetmaker whats this about needing to sweet talk MB?
09:20<@planetmaker>JVassie, parameters as a bitmask yes or no is so 1990. We have a parameter GUI for that
09:21<@planetmaker>Having a user fiddle with a bitmask is nasty - even if internally it's elegant.
09:21<@planetmaker>And railtypes... yes.
09:21<JVassie>what about railtypes?
09:22<@planetmaker>the ones used by this set. We discussed it... axle weight makes most sense.
09:22<@planetmaker>not used by, but preferred by
09:22<JVassie>Cant remember being here when you discussed it
09:22<JVassie>are there details down anywherE?
09:24<@planetmaker>yes... in the German forums ;-)
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09:25<@planetmaker>let me look
09:28<@planetmaker>that's along the lines of mb's idea, but uses 'official' rail class names rather than half made-up ones
09:28<@planetmaker>hi Belugas
09:28<@Belugas>hi sir :)
09:37<@Terkhen>the posts from uzziah are a bit strange :)
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09:39<@planetmaker>I think it's a spammer
09:40<@Terkhen>me too, but I have no proof :P
09:41<keky___>header ?
09:45<@Yexo>agree tgat uzziah is most likely a spammer
09:45<@planetmaker>JVassie, I added an issue to cets where the track class issue is raised
09:46<@planetmaker>thus it's not available for general reference ;-)
09:49<JVassie>woah thats a jumbled :walloftext:
09:49<@planetmaker>not anymore ;-)
09:50<@planetmaker>I like the idea of those 5 track types. They probably would make for a good game
09:51<@planetmaker>For now I'd just design the train set with that in mind and care about the tracks completely separate
09:51<JVassie>thanks for the readability :D
09:52<JVassie>Streckenklasse === railtype?
09:52<@planetmaker>rail class, but yes
09:53<@planetmaker>that's the official word in German for track classification
09:53<keky___>check the header, then you see often it's a spammer or not
09:53<@planetmaker>in OpenTTD terms it would boil down to a tracktype
09:54<@planetmaker>keky___, in forum postings? There's no header... just a signature.
09:55<keky___>ah ok
09:55<keky___>ip from china or or then often a spammer too :P
09:55<JVassie>gotcha planetmaker
09:56<keky___>only geoip make it good
09:57<@planetmaker>well, we also have people from China and Russia, so that's no criterion. But there are IP lists...
09:57<JVassie>so planetmaker, it builds on the use of just max speed as a factor for choosing a type
09:57<@planetmaker>JVassie, nope. Exactly that not ;-)
09:57<@planetmaker>On the axle weight
09:58<JVassie>my english wasnt that good :p
09:58<JVassie>let me rephrase
09:58<@peter1138>yours was fine
09:58<@peter1138>otoh, "exactly that not" isn't
09:58<JVassie>planet is german, im english
09:58<JVassie>i dotn have an excuse xD
09:58<@peter1138>yes i know
09:58<JVassie>rephrased -> so, in addition to just max speed, the axle weight comes into play when choosing which rail type to build
09:59<JVassie>better planetmaker? :D
09:59<JVassie>i wasnt sure if we were sayign axle wieght out loud or not, but you did, so.. :D
09:59<@peter1138>plenty of english people get english wrong...
09:59<JVassie>i no
09:59<JVassie>mysql joins + multidimensional arrays, plus duplicates
10:00<JVassie>!= a fun problem to solve
10:00<@planetmaker>JVassie, the plan would be to allow the heavy trains to run only on tracks which support their axle weight.
10:00<@peter1138>mysql has joins these days? hah
10:01<@planetmaker>Additionally tracks also have a speed limit, but that's no (direct) criterion to allow or disallow an engine or waggon on a certain track type
10:01<JVassie>peter1138: since like forever
10:01<@planetmaker>peter1138, how would an Englishman phrase "exactly that not"?
10:01<JVassie>exactly the opposite
10:01<JVassie>precisely not that
10:01<@planetmaker>well... it's not the opposite. There's no opposite ;-)
10:02<@planetmaker>hm, interesting :-) thanks
10:02<JVassie>you rarely see 'that not' in that order in english
10:02<JVassie>afaik its always 'not that'
10:03*JVassie likes PHPs unique_array( function
10:03<JVassie>confused sir?
10:04<@peter1138>no, i'm just supplying empathy
10:04<@peter1138>you're using php
10:04<@peter1138>you're using mysql
10:04<@peter1138>you need a double does
10:05<@Yexo>only that function is called array_unique
10:06<@peter1138>(oh, and it sounds like you're selecting data from the db, then filtering it outside the db, which is not good
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10:08*JVassie thanks Yexo
10:08<JVassie>I knew that
10:08<JVassie>just cant type for toffee
10:08<JVassie>php + mysql go well together
10:10<@peter1138>yeah, they're both crap
10:10<JVassie>tis php 4 though :(
10:10<JVassie>i dont get to chose the program language
10:13<@peter1138>are you doing MVC?
10:24<JVassie>straight procedural
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10:34<@peter1138>ah, dihedral's finished brewing
10:34*peter1138 pours a cup
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10:37<@planetmaker>brewed dih might be 100% ecological, but I'm not sure it's tasty ;-)
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10:43<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i think the prussian section is now "feature complete", except maybe add the G12
10:51<JVassie>gah cant get my head around this
11:01<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, sounds good. Where do we get the sprites from?
11:02<JVassie>$q = "SELECT tblCompanies.companyID, tblCompanies.companyName, tblCompanies.townCity, tblCompanies.emailAddress
11:02<JVassie> FROM tblCompanies INNER JOIN tblLinkAgentsPostcodes ON tblCompanies.companyID = tblLinkAgentsPostcodes.CompanyID
11:02<JVassie> WHERE tblLinkAgentsPostcodes.PostCodeID = '$postcodeid'
11:02<JVassie> GROUP BY tblCompanies.companyID
11:02<JVassie> ORDER BY tblCompanies.companyName";
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: that's a good question :p
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11:04<JVassie>problem is, that query is being run in a foreach loop on $postcodeid
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>why the hell would you do a foreach loop when you can do a database query?
11:06<JVassie>thats what im strugglign to do
11:06<JVassie>get rid of the foreach loop
11:06<JVassie>and integrate it in
11:06<JVassie>i have an array of postcodeids to work with
11:07<JVassie>thoughts Eddi|zuHause ?
11:07<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, ask VoyagerOne?
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>my thoughts are elsewhere right now... maybe ask me when i return later
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11:08<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: he-who-spams-the-2cc-thread?
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11:09<JVassie>Ameecher said he might draw something if it takes his fancy
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>if we go with long vehicles, we need 12 (24) views of every vehicle, in 15° steps. i thought maybe we should use blender to render the shape, and then do pixel-touchups based on that
11:09<JVassie>but wont be contributign a whole bunch
11:09<@planetmaker>I haven't done an in-depth analysis of his sprites, but from what I saw they look quite ok - and he's dedicated to drawing realistic vehicles
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>instead of the usual 4 (8)
11:11<@planetmaker>what's the step-size of your test grf?
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>the test grf has 15°
11:11<@planetmaker>(and I'm still interested in the code - however untidy it may be ;-) )
11:11<@planetmaker>ok, then 15° is a good choice
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11:12<@planetmaker>should I write him a message?
11:12<@planetmaker>or you want to persue other options first, Eddi|zuHause ?
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>can't harm to ask ;)
11:14<JVassie>are we 100% set on long vehicles?
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: would be a unique thing this set offers over all the other stuff out there
11:14<JVassie>true point
11:14<JVassie>in _ view
11:14<JVassie>24m = 64px right?
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11:15<JVassie>a BR Mk. 4 carriage is 23m
11:15<JVassie>23.4m includign couplings
11:16<JVassie>height is 3.79 (call it 3.8) metres
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>west german post-war wagons (UIC-X) are ~ 26.5m and east german (UIC-Y) are ~ 24.5m
11:16<JVassie>so the height would be 10.133333 px
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>pre-war around 18-20m
11:16<JVassie>at the same scale
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: no, height/width need different scales
11:17<JVassie>atm the coach side is 8px
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>really should not exceed 8px each
11:17<JVassie>from bottom to bottom of roof
11:17<JVassie>thing is
11:17<JVassie>an 8*64px coach looks super out of scale
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>in - view it's like 8px of height, 4px of roof
11:18<JVassie>cause youve doubled the length, but not increased the heigh at all
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: that's because you're too used to TTD's screwed up scale
11:18<JVassie>also true
11:19<JVassie>however 64*8 px is neither TTD nor real life
11:19<JVassie>were 'inventing' another scale
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>yes. it's impossible to get the scale "right"
11:19<JVassie>can we not afford 2 extra pixels of 'coach side' height?
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>well, make a few case studies to convince me ;)
11:20<JVassie>doign so
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>take the grf from here, decode it, and replace the sprites with your own (there are a few doubled, so just copy-paste those):
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>12 different sprites in total
11:22<JVassie>im just gonna do __ view quickly
11:22<JVassie>have some sprites already half done
11:22<JVassie>id extended a 32px coach to 64px
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: if you think there are too many, we can discuss taking a few out
11:30<JVassie>top to bottom
11:30<JVassie>the y value is from bottom of raisl to bottom of roof
11:30<JVassie>add 4 for overall y value
11:32<JVassie>planetmaker: your thoughts?
11:32<@peter1138>long sprites, eh?
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>might reduce the roof to 3 pixels, or remove the lowest line with the wheels. but need to see how it behaves ingame
11:32<JVassie>would look bad if we reduced roof (which is essentially vehicle width)
11:33<JVassie>is 12 overall the absolute maximum?
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>i mean we get enough glitches with bridges and tunnels as it is, extending sprite height is just asking for trouble
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>be aware that catenary is only 11 pixels high
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>and we need double decker wagons with increased height
11:34<JVassie>oh feck
11:35<JVassie>nice :p
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: we can say 26m=64px, if that makes it easier for you
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 26/4
11:36<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 6.5
11:36<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, do you have (again) the issue with your test grf, please?
11:37<JVassie>another nice looking livery we could investigate xD
11:37<JVassie>also the OBB railjet looks super slick
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>let's get the shape right, worry about liveries later ;)
11:39<@planetmaker>nvm, found it
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: sizes:
11:40<@peter1138>so are you doing 8 or 32bpp?
11:40<JVassie>long ass mothers
11:40<@planetmaker>well, if someone does also the 32bpp sprites, I'd not mind doing that, too
11:40<JVassie>i guess we could keep the renders for a 32bpp later on
11:40<@planetmaker>But it'll need 8bpp in any case
11:41<@peter1138>image -> mode -> 8bpp :p
11:41<@planetmaker>*If* someone renders the sprites - then we could do 32bpp from the start. But personally I'd not consider it a requirement
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>i played with that thought
11:41<@peter1138>why do people think 32bpp == rendering?
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: other way around: rendering = easier way of getting 12/24 views
11:42<@planetmaker>peter1138, whatever
11:42<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, sure. but people automatically think making 32bpp requires rendering.
11:42<@planetmaker>it's IMHO up to the artist. But yes... with 24 views that might be easier.
11:42<Ammler>some render for 8bpp too
11:43<@peter1138>yeah. rendering is a completely separate issue.
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11:44<Ammler>hmm, you skipped the sbb?
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: nobody volunteered yet ;)
11:45<JVassie>DR/DB/DBAG is pretty much done
11:45<Ammler>ok, just thought beceause JVassie already had a partial sbb set
11:45<JVassie>I have some sbb/swiss graphics indeed
11:49<MNIM>i've got a question.
11:49<MNIM>I've found some custom content that i mean to include in my OTTD game, to be exact, this:
11:50<MNIM>the issue however is that it is in .diff format, and i have no idea what i would need to do to use that
11:50<MNIM>i'm only used to the simple .grf system
11:51<@planetmaker>that's not an add-on, it's a source-code patch
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11:51<SpComb>you need to patch and compile
11:51<@planetmaker>thus you need to get the source code, get the development tools, and then compile
11:51<@planetmaker>and... you'll most likely need to update the patch as it's about 3 years old
11:51<Ammler>well, maybe you also need to update the patch, very advanced stuff :-)
11:52<@planetmaker>thus it won't apply to the current source code without some coding work
11:52<@planetmaker>Ammler, the GUI code changed...
11:52<MNIM>nobody knows of any more recent content that would do the same?
11:52<@planetmaker>maybe nobody knows
11:52<@planetmaker>@seen nobody
11:52<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: I have not seen nobody.
11:52<Ammler>MNIM: you could ask chili to add it to his patchpack
11:53<@planetmaker>I know a 3 month more recent version :-P
11:53<Ammler>I guess, It might not be hard to write that feature from scratch
11:53<MNIM>well, i assume that won't save me.
11:53<Ammler>basically just needs to remove a if
11:54<@planetmaker>but the game is now at r22500. Thus you can judge: when that patch was written, OpenTTD was about 3/5 of its current age
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>try to put on trousers from when you were 3/5 of your current age :p
11:55<@planetmaker>no problem :-P
11:55<MNIM>not for me
11:55<MNIM>since that would make me... 11?
11:55<MNIM>nah. that won't fit.
11:55<@planetmaker>@calc 11*5/3
11:55<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 18.3333333333
11:56<MNIM>bit more, rounded down from 11.4
11:56<MNIM>but nevermind that.
11:57<MNIM>@calc 19/5*3
11:57<@DorpsGek>MNIM: 11.4
11:57<@planetmaker>MNIM, you can place rivers in the SE
11:57<@planetmaker>scenario editor
11:58<MNIM>I know, but i like to place 'em during my sandbox games
11:58<@planetmaker>build canals ;-)
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>rename file to scn, load in SE, rename back, play on
11:58<MNIM>i'm more of the 'model trains' kind of ottd-ers
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>could use a cheat "place rivers ingame"
11:59<@planetmaker>you're not alone with that, MNIM ;-)
11:59<@planetmaker>Not sure it's a 'cheat', Eddi|zuHause
11:59<MNIM>pretty much, for something thought up so long ago i'm surprised nobody thought to include that into the game yet
11:59<@planetmaker>But yes... I don't quite recall the reason why it was NOT included.
11:59<Ammler>yeah, it is very bad implemented, the dev who added rivers didn't just "forget" about that, he also added a evil rule, so you can't build rivers with patched client on a server ;-)
12:00<@planetmaker>IIRC it was along the lines of 'players cannot build rivers'
12:00<@planetmaker>which in a way is... a realism argument
12:00<JVassie>should be a cheat option tbh
12:00<JVassie>allow creating rivers during game
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: you want to team up with luukland? :p
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12:01<@planetmaker>der eine geht, der andere kommt ;-)
12:01<MNIM>this is more my kind oif ottd'ing. :P
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12:01<MNIM>hmmmh, oh, btw, can anybody hand me the standard connection adress for this network?
12:02<MNIM>then i'll just include it in the serverlist of the proper client
12:03<@planetmaker>probably missing a # somewhere or so.
12:04<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: luukland?
12:05<@Yexo>yes, he was also wining about servers disallowing commands that unmodified clients couldn't do
12:06<Ammler>nah, please note the smile at the end
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12:09<Moustachio>I love it when something works properly.
12:10<Moustachio>oh, username cut off.
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12:14*MNIM snickers at the topic
12:14<MNIM>"'latest' is not a valid version"
12:14<MNIM>yeah. all too familiar
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12:17<MNIM>since when do wolves moo?
12:18<__ln__>MNIM: they do in italy
12:19<__ln__>it's the mediterranean climate
12:20<@Belugas>wow... nice shot...
12:20<@Belugas>MNIM's one, i meant..
12:22<MNIM>what shot?
12:23<MNIM>I posted no screens 0-o
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12:26<MNIM>any of you ever used the ECS vectors?
12:26<MNIM>I don't get the tourist centers. "(...) requires sloped land"
12:26<MNIM>no matter how sloped I make it, no tourist center
12:28<JVassie>that shot >.>
12:28<MNIM>oh that
12:28<MNIM>not mine, just random google img
12:28<JVassie>still, you pasted it
12:28<JVassie>your credit :D
12:30<@Belugas>[12:01] <MNIM>
12:30<@Belugas>ho.. random...
12:30<@Belugas>cool anyway
12:31<@Belugas>let me finish my freaking basement and we'll start buildnig our own train network, my son and i!
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12:31<MNIM>I know a dude who's doing that as well
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12:31<MNIM>the only issue is that he doesn't have a lot of time due to work
12:31*JVassie wants a basement the size of the M25
12:32<MNIM>...he works at the dutch railways :P
12:32<@Belugas>that's quite...ironical
12:32<@planetmaker>IMHO the shot lacks interesting perspective ;-)
12:32<MNIM>apparently they don't let him play with trains enough already
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12:32<TWerkhoven>tell him to play openttd instead then
12:32<TWerkhoven>takes a lot less time to build there
12:33<Rubidium>MNIM: how can that be... he must have at least like 25 free days
12:34<JVassie>@ calc 300/2.5
12:34<@DorpsGek>JVassie: 120
12:34<JVassie>@calc 250/1.5
12:34<@DorpsGek>JVassie: 166.666666667
12:37<MNIM>true, Im going to suggest it to him next time I see him. heh
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12:37<MNIM>ottd runs on macs, right?
12:37<JVassie>believe so
12:38<@planetmaker>In principle
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12:40<MNIM>that sounds suspiciously much like 'Yeah, but you're probably gonna need a degree in IT sciences'
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12:41<@planetmaker>not really
12:41<Rubidium>yeah, a physics degree seems to be enough as well, right?
12:43<MNIM>oh well
12:43<MNIM>if he won't be entertained by it, I expect his three kids will at least
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12:59<joho>wrong window!
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13:07<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22604 /trunk/readme.txt: -Document: that there are invalid warnings under some circumstances
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14:25<Zuu>Hmm, googling for "setting up a compile farm" gets OpenTTD on fourth place :-)
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14:36<@planetmaker>hallo andythenorth
14:37<DGMurdockIII>is there a way to play openttd without having the Transport Tycoon game?
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14:59<TrueBrain>Zuu: try googling for OSX cross platform :P
15:01<DGMurdockIII>how do i use it with openttd
15:01<Zuu>DGMurdockIII: Windows or Linux or OSX?
15:02<Zuu>If you run the setup installer, it will ask if you want it to download + install OpenGFX
15:02<DGMurdockIII>the setup for openttd
15:02<Zuu>It might also contain on option to download OpenSFX from the installer though it is not necessary to get OpenTTD running.
15:03<Zuu>Once you have got OpenTTD running, you can get most addons/extra content via the in-game online content system.
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15:05<DGMurdockIII>no as im am a huge simcity player is there any rule of thump of how the to place the buildiong and stuff simcity if if you did not place road and stuff right you wouldnt gwt very manypeople in city
15:05<Zuu>(OpenSFX is a sound set. OpenTTD ships with the soundset "NoSound" which is completely silent. If you want actual sound effects, you need OpenSFX (or original TTD sound files))
15:05-!-supermop [] has joined #openttd
15:06<FrankyJones>Goodday all! Anybody from holland arround to help me setting up a server... im out of sollutions... :)
15:06<Zuu>Why do you need anyone from holland in an English only IRC channel?
15:06<DGMurdockIII>i tryed playing this once before but i could not get my city to do aNYTHING
15:07-!-bryjen [~bryjen@] has joined #openttd
15:07<Zuu>DGMurdockIII: OpenTTD is not a city simulation game.
15:07<Zuu>It's a transport game.
15:07<FrankyJones>Ok your right... then some server help in English...?
15:07<DGMurdockIII>so maby im missing the point on what im supported to do
15:07<Zuu>@get -3
15:07<@DorpsGek>Zuu: Don't ask to ask, just ask
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15:08<Zuu>DGMurdockIII: Maybe this will help you get started:
15:08-!-Twerkhoven[L] [] has joined #openttd
15:09<FrankyJones>Willing to setup a Openttd server non dedicated... I choose for setup server, internet (advert) and start the game... the server is not being added to the internet list and stays local (lan)... why?
15:10<@planetmaker>select 'internet' and not 'lan' in the server setup menu
15:10<Zuu>Have you opened ports / port forwarding in your router + OS?
15:10<Zuu>For both UDP and TCP.
15:11<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
15:11<Zuu>Your server will only show up on the server list if it can be reached from the outside by the master server.
15:11<@planetmaker>the server list can be checked on
15:11<DGMurdockIII>(Zuu): would you be able to show me the basic using co-op
15:11<FrankyJones>Ok thanks guys! Im gonna try this right now! Thanks!
15:12<Zuu>DGMurdockIII: You could as well download + run an AI if you want to see someone building.
15:13<Zuu>The GUI can't be teached via co-op.
15:13<Zuu>Unless writing what is already documented in the wiki.
15:13<DGMurdockIII>i want to know how to do the game right
15:14<DGMurdockIII>i can figer out the gui myself
15:14<Zuu>Download CluelessPlus and "I" will show you how to play :-p
15:15<Zuu>(I'm the author of that AI)
15:15<Zuu>Download PAXLink and "I" will show you how to get bankrupt :-D
15:16<DGMurdockIII>im downloading them
15:16<Zuu>Go to AI Settings
15:16<Zuu>In main menu
15:17<DGMurdockIII>then what
15:17<Zuu>And select 2 (or more AIs) and also put the AIs into the AI slots instead of Random.
15:17<Zuu>If you want to be sure to not get two of the same AI.
15:17<Zuu>After you are done with AI config, you can start a new game.
15:17<Zuu>However, you might want to enable the Slow setting in CluelessPlus.
15:17<DGMurdockIII>i dont see the ai i downloaded
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15:19<Zuu>interesting problem. I guess the standard solution is to restart OpenTTD. ;-) Though I have no idea why it happens.
15:19<Zuu>(Assuming you did click on one of those lines saying "Random AI" and then on the "Select AI" button.
15:21<DGMurdockIII>when starting anew game shold i leave everthing defult
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15:24-!-Mucht is "Martin Nussbaumer" on @#coopetition @#JJ @+#openttdcoop.association #wwottdgd #openttd @#openttdcoop
15:24<doug713705>Hi all. I have setted up a dedicated server (version 1.1.1/linux debian) and I'd like to change some settings on the fly via rcon commands within a python script. Is it possible to connect to the server for this ? Which port do I have to use (3979/TCP, 3977/TCP, 3979/UDP) ?
15:25<Zuu>leaving everything else on default should be okay. Mind that IIRC first AI start a year after you with the default settings.
15:25<Zuu>That said, you can either fast-forward quickly past that year, or pull down the console and type "startai" and have it started directly even if you forgot to reduce that time.
15:26<JVassie>planetmaker: that zebra striping
15:26<JVassie>what sort order was it applied during?
15:27<@planetmaker>I highlighted the core of epoch1
15:29<JVassie>and some E2 :p
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15:31<@Terkhen>doug713705: you might be interested on
15:31<doug713705>thanks Terkhen.
15:33<doug713705>Nice, this document points to the porotocol definition. Thanks a lot
15:33-!-perk11 [] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.]
15:34<@Terkhen>you are welcome :)
15:35<JVassie>G12 intro 1017 planetmaker ?
15:35<@planetmaker>a bit early, eh? ;-)
15:36<JVassie>1877 perhaps?
15:36<@planetmaker>what does wiki tell?
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15:37<JVassie>le fixed
15:39<JVassie>only 4 locos in the 80s introduced?
15:39<JVassie>weird :p
15:57<@planetmaker> <-- suggestions for parameters Eddi|zuHause JVassie Yexo
15:58<JVassie>missing string dec
15:59<JVassie>looks good otherwise planetmaker :D
15:59<JVassie>dunno if you'd noticed
15:59<JVassie>but im making slow headway with SBB
16:00<@planetmaker>I didn't look at the table really since noon
16:01<JVassie>no worries
16:04<@Terkhen>JVassie: <--- did you see this? :)
16:06<@planetmaker>Terkhen: CC-BY-SA is that compatible with GPL? I don't think so
16:06<@Terkhen>neither do I
16:06<@Terkhen>do I say that in my post?
16:06<@planetmaker>just makes copy&paste of code more difficult ;-)
16:07<@Terkhen>in my post "would make sense for us" means "less work trying to get all the people that did a sprite" :P
16:07<@Terkhen>I prefer GPL, and many contributions from other sets or some authors are in GPL already
16:07<@planetmaker>I think DanMacK's stance is 'my work is public domain'
16:08<@Terkhen>that's on my ToDo... checking if the authors on the list did any public comment regarding all of their work
16:08<@Terkhen>I'll make a note of that, although DanMack is still around :)
16:09*andythenorth has a beer
16:09<supermop>good idea!
16:09<@planetmaker>look at his signature, Terkhen ;-)
16:09<supermop>re: beer
16:09*andythenorth suggests encouraging DanMacK to not get bored of spriting
16:09<@planetmaker>CC-BY actually
16:09<@planetmaker>Feel free to use any of my sprites, all I ask in return is credit for the original artwork
16:09<andythenorth>Dan is GPL compatible ;)
16:09<@Terkhen>nice :)
16:09<@planetmaker>very much so
16:10*andythenorth can't be bothered to do actual work
16:10<andythenorth>Terkhen: FIRS game?
16:10<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I have been coding all day and I'm tired of it, so... yes :)
16:10<@Terkhen>my internet sucks today though
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16:24<JVassie>thx Terkhen
16:26<JVassie>you have my permission for any of my spain set contributions to be distributed under a GPl v2 license
16:26<@Terkhen>thank you JVassie :)
16:27<MNIM>I just sucessfully reassembled an intuos tablet pen
16:27<JVassie>I once reassembled a hoover
16:27<MNIM>..wait. where did that spring come from?
16:28<@planetmaker>mind the difference between resemble and reassemble ;-)
16:28*MNIM whips the A key as punishment
16:28<@planetmaker>you shouldn't ;-)
16:28<@planetmaker>it was correct :-P
16:28<MNIM>wait. I didn't typo
16:28<MNIM>then why did you say that?
16:29<@planetmaker>why not? ;-)
16:29<MNIM>because you confuse me like that?
16:30<@planetmaker>have a cookie :-)
16:31*Terkhen wants cookies too
16:31*planetmaker should go to bed - or more such reading errors occur ;-)
16:31<MNIM>that's not a tracking cookie, is it?
16:31*MNIM runs a virusscan over it
16:31*planetmaker also gives a cookie to Terkhen. Even two
16:33<JVassie>planetmaker: work on the spreadsheet!
16:33<@planetmaker>I wrote already the parameters today ;-)
16:34<@planetmaker>and ... your day still has an hour more than mine :-P
16:34*frosch123 considers the conversion of newgrf wiki done
16:34<@planetmaker>quak! quak
16:35<JVassie>SBB has more modern stuff than DB
16:35<frosch123>i ran all pages (in rendered state) of old and new wiki through a whitespace ignoring diff
16:35-!-devilsadvocate [~quassel@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:35<frosch123>then fixed the issues :p
16:36<@planetmaker>have three cookies ;-)
16:36*planetmaker checks changelog
16:36<frosch123>took me some days to check all the diffs :)
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16:39<+michi_cc>planetmaker: I put the highlighted engines from CETS into a timeline spreadsheet. From that there seems to be a slight bunching of heavy cargo at one point, while light cargo is a bit lacking then.
16:39<+michi_cc>planetmaker: If you give me edit rights, I can put that sheet into the google doc.
16:40<@planetmaker>nice work, frosch123 :-)
16:40<frosch123>btw. was there any result on configuring inter-wiki links? or should we continue using the templates?
16:40<@Yexo>planetmaker: that pastebin you posted, did you actually test that?
16:40<@planetmaker>Yexo: no.
16:40<@Yexo>as all parameters are named "param_provide", which should be invalid
16:40<@planetmaker>classical c&p error :-)
16:41<JVassie>found a steamer for 1847
16:41<JVassie>D 1/3
16:41<@planetmaker>michi_cc: what's your google account / login?
16:41<JVassie>125kW and 40 km/h
16:41<@Yexo>Game 1: epoch34 I chose DR, and for amount I chose CORE
16:42<@Yexo>Game 2: epoch 34 I chose DB, amount CORE
16:42<@Yexo>Game 3: epoch 34 ALL, amount CORE
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16:42<@Yexo>will game 3 have all engines that appear in either game 1 or game 2?
16:42<@planetmaker>michi_cc: deed done
16:42<JVassie>Yexo, guess so
16:43<@Yexo>if so, wouldn't that be too many engines for CORE?
16:43<@Yexo>if not, that's very confusing
16:43<JVassie>is 1847 too early?
16:43<@planetmaker>Yexo: core means to select the core engines of _each_ (sub) set
16:43<@planetmaker>'mixed' means to chose a really minimal set
16:43<JVassie>Yexo, they dont have to select core of multiple sub sets
16:44<@Yexo>planetmaker: so default is "mixed"?
16:44<@planetmaker>possibly that needs better naming. I'd make 'mixed' the default, yes
16:44<@Yexo>and default for all epochs would be "all"?
16:44<@Yexo>in that case it looks fine :)
16:44<@planetmaker>possibly... though what I pasted doesn't follow that.
16:44<@planetmaker>current default is all off, except prussian trains :-P
16:45<@Yexo>that sounds like a strange default :p
16:45<@planetmaker>rather from the desire to start with that
16:45<JVassie>my defaults would be all, all, all, everything, extended, all, all, etc
16:45<@planetmaker>thus... everything else... the core or extended set of 0 trains is still 0 ;-)
16:45<+michi_cc>planetmaker: There should be a new sheet now. Red text is eletric engine, black everything else. Background color is only for visual distinction.
16:46<+michi_cc>You can see the 1920s have several heavy cargo, but not much else.
16:46<JVassie>remember the time spans are build dates not useage dates :)
16:47<JVassie>but i see your point michi
16:47<@planetmaker>interesting, thanks, michi_cc :-)
16:47<JVassie><JVassie> is 1847 too early?
16:47<@planetmaker>they have the p8
16:47<JVassie>p8 is 1906
16:48<JVassie>current earliest is G3 and P2 both 1877
16:48<@planetmaker>important is 'what's available'
16:48<@planetmaker>not 'when introduced'
16:48<+michi_cc>JVassie: Yes, but the time span a player can buy an engine is the important one. Of course, the in-game time span must not necessarily be identical to the historical dates.
16:49<JVassie>indeed michi
16:49<JVassie>just making sure you knew the origin of the dates in the 2nd sheet
16:50<Wolf01>'nighty night
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16:51<@Yexo>wow, 120 engines already
16:51<@Yexo>the table is growing fast :)
16:51<JVassie>im working on it Yexo :D
16:52<JVassie>SBB has a real nice spread of stuff
16:52<@planetmaker>Yep, the table is already quite impressive
16:53<JVassie>intro dates span 1847-2012
16:54<JVassie>right all modern SBB/SBB Cargo stuff is in
16:54<JVassie>steamers are done
16:54<JVassie>will do the old diesel and leccies later on
16:54<JVassie>ta ra for now chaps
16:54<@planetmaker>michi_cc: when I look at the stats: then G12 and T20 are not much different...
16:55<@planetmaker>probably I'd leave out the T20
16:55<@planetmaker>but I'm blissfully ignorant of railway history
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17:01<Eddi|zuHause>we need some way to distinguish travel distance
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>G12 for long distances, T20 for short distances
17:02<+michi_cc>planetmaker: I've changed the colors on that time line a bit, now all blue-ish stuff is axle weight <= 16t (i.e. track class A) and the red-ish (and the electrics) are higher axle weight
17:02<+michi_cc>From that there's a definite need for something with low axle weight starting from 1915 or so
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>the buy-periods should probably get longer than the historic ones
17:03<@planetmaker>good point to add
17:03<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: not sure this is a good idea, but: trains that normally travel short distance: very high running cost, no running cost while at station
17:03<@Yexo>for trains that normally travel long distances: lower running cost, but same running cost at the station
17:03<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: I think we kick T20 from core
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: something really evil would be "distance travelled since last service"
17:04<@Yexo>that way the "long distances" trains are penalized when they load too much (=too short routes) and the "short distance" trains are penalized when they travel too much (=high running cost not offset by time at station)
17:04<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: but that just makes you have to service trains a lot, which is imo a bad idea
17:04<@planetmaker>interesting idea, Yexo :-)
17:05<andythenorth>these problems would be solvable with a cargo-aging cb per vehicle type
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: i'd have something like "limit air distance between furthest stations in timetable"
17:05<andythenorth>it would be both (a) good and (b) realistic :P
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>but i don't think that'll be possible
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17:05<@Yexo>andythenorth: that would be useful for different wagons, not for different engines
17:06<@Yexo>and that's indeed not possible eddi
17:06<@Yexo>even the current limit for ships can be easily circumvented
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17:06<andythenorth>for engines, are such measures needed?
17:07<andythenorth>it's probably solvable within spec
17:07<andythenorth>just make engines for local service slower + cheaper
17:07<@Yexo>the discussion was about engines, not wagons
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>there could be "refill" times like loading times
17:07<@Yexo>andy: but that means that "long distance" engines are also better for short routes
17:08<andythenorth>not if they're insanely expensive?
17:08*planetmaker considers T18 and G8 for core to keep engines for low axle weight tracks
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: how about: exchange T20 with T18?
17:08<andythenorth>this issue is about PAX services?
17:09<andythenorth>or all cargo?
17:09<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: definitely a win
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>problem is: T18 is a passenger engine, T20 a cargo engine
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>so they're not really comparable
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>so T18 overlaps with T12 somewhat
17:10<@planetmaker>T20 isn't needed, there's two other similar cargo engines
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17:11<@planetmaker>the G12 is not that much different
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>Txx engines are shorter than Gxx and Pxx
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>because they don't have additional tender
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17:12<@Terkhen>good night
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17:14<@planetmaker>good night Terkhen
17:16<@planetmaker>hm, there don't seem to be many engines with axle weigh < 16t in > 1915
17:16<@planetmaker>so not much to do there
17:16<@planetmaker>thus we simply need to extend the availability years for some light engines
17:16<Eddi|zuHause><16t will only be very local branch railways after 1920
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>then most engines are doubled between <18t (e.g. BR 03) and >18t (e.g. BR 01)
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>with very similar stats
17:18<@planetmaker>so that's the important barrier later on
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>if designing for MB's track set, the >18t ones would be "core"
17:19<@planetmaker>I guess I'll follow Terkhen 's example for now, though...
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>electric engines are almost always >18t
17:19<@planetmaker>so: core = heavy engines
17:19<@planetmaker>and extended: also branch?
17:20<@planetmaker>with that knowledge now I'll wave 'good night' :-)
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>a few handpicked engines for <16t
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>to keep branch railways alive
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>there's no "reply to all" for PMs
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>and i can't select recipients at all?!?
17:24<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: you can
17:25<+michi_cc>How about the G10 as a proper cargo engine for <16t?
17:25<@Yexo>top left, there is a box with "Usernames" as header
17:25<@Yexo>enter one username per line, than click "Add [To]"
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>now that's a weird page layout
17:25<@Yexo>it certainly is
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>i would expect that in the "To:" line
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>above the subject
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17:44<Eddi|zuHause>hm... can i run vmware in a vm?
17:45*MNIM refers to the obligatory inception demotivational
17:46<MNIM>is it possible to use TTRS with TBRS the TTRS road surfaces on the bridges, but the bridges from TBRS?
17:47<MNIM>I can get it to use either TTRS roads and different roads on the bridges, or TTRS roads AND bridges
17:47<MNIM>but the TTRS bridges are fairly broken (not to mention ugly)
17:48<MNIM>no offense intended, if the actual dev of that set is here, but I don't like those bridges
17:48<MNIM>besides the fact that they're broken, that is
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>there were a handful extra TBRS sets around with support for various road sets
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if TTRS roads were among them
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>or where to find them
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>i'd recommend just using the default roads
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>least amount of trouble
17:55<MNIM>but if we used that philosophy, would there even be TTRS or TBRS-es?
17:55<MNIM>oh well, Ill google a bit more
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>i'd dig through either grfcrawler or the TBRS thread in the forum
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>might be a "TBRS 1.11 for TTRS"
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19:28<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: i don't think it makes sense to distinguish between "SBB" and "SBB Cargo"
19:28<JVassie>kk np
19:29<JVassie>find and replace :D
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19:55<MNIM>well that was obvious.
19:55<MNIM>frequently need to edit a savegame in scenario editor?
19:55<MNIM>symlink the the lot!
19:57<MNIM>sometimes shit can be so simple
19:58<Eddi|zuHause>but that means overwriting the old savegame, which makes it difficult to go back if you made a mistake
19:59<Eddi|zuHause>that is made worse by the distinctive lack of autosave in the scenario editor
20:00<MNIM>hmmmh, true
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---Logclosed Tue Jun 21 00:00:03 2011