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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-06-22

---Logopened Wed Jun 22 00:00:05 2011
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02:47<dihedral>good morning
02:48*dihedral wonders if someone's on the ignore list or someone else is monologuing :P
02:50<dihedral>oi pm
02:50<dihedral>btw. the irc connection is coming along
02:50<@planetmaker>sweet sweet :-)
02:52<dihedral>missing a back route (irc -> openttd) and have a char which i do not expect to see in the message - i guess though that this char is the LTR or RTL char ^^
02:53<dihedral>then i can move on to the stuff like is user in channel etc.
02:54<dihedral>i moved to a different irc library, as this one provides channel and user objects, with easy access to lists about the channels a certain user is in ^^
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03:00<dihedral>planetmaker, ? to what? :-P
03:00<@planetmaker>you're saying the previously used irc lib didn't allow to find out which channel the bot or a user of the bot is in?
03:01<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:02<dihedral>good morning Terkhen
03:03<dihedral>planetmaker, basically yes, you could get hold of the channel(s) the bot was on, but not see the channels or the status of a user once you received the message
03:03<@planetmaker>hello Terkhen
03:04<dihedral>you were only given a string (user) instead of a User Object
03:04<@planetmaker>i see
03:05<dihedral>the lib i am working with now, is an extension of the previous lib, reworked to an Event driven lib, and provides different objects for channel and user actions
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04:08<JVassie>mornin' all
04:08<JVassie>all mornin'
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04:13<@Terkhen>hi JVassie
04:13<JVassie>how ya doing?
04:19<@Terkhen>I'm testing stuff so I'll know that soon :P
04:20<JVassie>testing anything interesting? :)
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04:21<JVassie>CETS currently has 8 locos intro'd in the 20s, and 3 locos intro'd in the 30s
04:21<@Terkhen>interesting mostly to me, it is for university :P
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04:23<JVassie>ah hah
04:23*JVassie starts on old SBB electrics..
04:23<JVassie>I guess we can do BLS as well
04:31<JVassie>hmm planetmaker Eddi|zuHause there?
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04:37<@planetmaker>JVassie, it's about 1000% more productive, if you just share your thoughts instead of sharing that you *might* want to share thoughts...
04:38<JVassie>just a note regarding some of the SBB stuff im putting in
04:38<JVassie>for the Ae 3/6 I and the Re 4/4 I
04:39<JVassie>there are two versions with identical names, which came in seperate batches, with different stats
04:39<JVassie>and in the case of the Re 4/4 I, different looks
04:40<@planetmaker>then add a note about that and... done ;-)
04:41<JVassie>yadda yadda
04:42<JVassie>theres not much point being hugely extensive with the shunters i guess
04:44<JVassie>a lot of them are very similar in looks and stats
04:48<peter1138>i don't think people actually use them, do they?
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04:52<JVassie>well its things like the V100 of germany
04:52<JVassie>which are quite common
04:52<JVassie>and have a use aside from sitting in a yard shunting
04:54<@planetmaker>eddi considers shunting engines suitable for short-distance feeder services
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04:56<@planetmaker>I'm not entirely sure whether the normal engines won't do for this purpose. But it'd mean to leave out this category entirely
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05:16<JVassie>planetmaker: thats why i think it best just to use those which best represent shunters
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05:18<JVassie>Ae 8/14
05:18<JVassie>490 kN TE
05:19<JVassie>100kph and 4650kW
05:19<JVassie>in 1931 :p
05:19<JVassie>quite a beast of a loco
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05:28<caracal>is there a way to center the already-open minimap on the current viewport view? i know that closing and re-opening it will do that, but was wondering if there was another way ... couldn't find it in the hotkeys or on the UI
05:29<JVassie>hi michi_cc :)
05:29<@planetmaker>JVassie, really... please add something meaningful to your highlights
05:29<JVassie>says you! :p
05:30<@planetmaker>no. IRC works similar to e-mail. If you just send an e-mail like "hello" it's pointless
05:30<+michi_cc>Hello JVassie
05:30<JVassie>he just joined the spreadsheet so i was saying hi
05:30<@planetmaker>irc has the advantage, if the first line sets the topic, it's clear when one returns later what is to be discussed
05:31<@planetmaker>I redact the implicit conclusion I jumped to ;-)
05:31<JVassie>no worries
05:31<JVassie>so many motors cars on the swiss railways..
05:31<@planetmaker> §3 ;-)
05:33<JVassie>were not publishing nout :p
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05:34<@Yexo>caracal: the button right of the + button
05:35<@Yexo>I don't think there is a hotkey for that
05:35<@Yexo>I meant the button in the window itself
05:35<caracal>oh duh, that's exactly what it does, and i'm sure i saw that tooltip a hundred times ... thanks!!
05:36<JVassie>least BLS doesnt have as much stock as the SBB
05:36<JVassie>are there any other swiss private companies we want to represent in CETS?
05:37<JVassie>perhaps BOB, MOB, RhB, SOB
05:38<JVassie>and potentially AB, THURBO and ZB
05:38<JVassie>thoughts welcome all
05:38<caracal>so in early-year scenarios, at least (and maybe later ones as well) there's no way for a ship to load oil from an oil rig out in the open ocean, right?
05:39<@Yexo>caracal: if you have a ship, just order it to load at the oil rig
05:39<@Yexo>or is the problem that you have no ships available?
05:39<caracal>oh? it'll accept the rig as a route destination?
05:39<caracal>oh cool, thanks
05:40<@Yexo>oil rigs have a special in-build station that can be used by all companies
05:40<caracal>i'm too stupid for trains, so i tend to focus on ships and planes <g>
05:41<JVassie>helicopters can also land at oil rigs
05:41<caracal>ah ... i tried that but couldn't get it to work ... must have done it wrong
05:42<caracal>didn't click on the right position or something
05:43<caracal>i figured it should work, since the oil rig's art has a big prominent helipad right on it <g>
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: RhB and stuff only if we allow narrow gauge
05:44<Eddi|zuHause>but for swiss stuff, that would probably be necessary
05:44<JVassie>Ill have to check how much NG track there is without OHLE
05:44<JVassie>dont think there will be much
05:45<JVassie>we could probably have 3 railtypes to cover NG if we can spare them
05:45<JVassie>low axle weight and speed non elec
05:45<JVassie>low axle weigth and speed elec
05:45<JVassie>higher axle weight and speed elec
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>is axle weight really that relevant for narrow gauge?
05:49<JVassie>not sure tbh
05:49<JVassie>i dont know a huge amount
05:49<JVassie>Snail would know more
05:50<@peter1138>too many railtypes :S
05:50<JVassie>hes offline on MSN atm though
05:50<JVassie>Eddi, how would you get around it for NG then?
05:51<JVassie>I mean were not gonna even look at the different NG sizes
05:51<JVassie>750mm, 1000mm for example
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05:57<JVassie>mmm RhB is all electrified
05:57<JVassie>11kV or 1kV
05:58<JVassie>NG version of the FLIRT EMU :p
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: i'd probably say expect only 2 NG railtypes, normal and electrified
06:00<JVassie>thats fine
06:00<JVassie>the speed limits will determine themselves for the most part with locomotive speeds
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06:00<JVassie>unless its possible to change max speed by current year?
06:00<JVassie>(of a railtype)
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06:00<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think so
06:01<@peter1138>you can do that on the vehicle side
06:01<JVassie>wrong useage peter
06:01<JVassie>anyway the max speed RhB is 100kph
06:01<@peter1138>wrong usage?
06:02<@Yexo><JVassie> unless its possible to change max speed by current year? <- only if you save/load the game, so not in mp
06:02<JVassie>well as in i was thinkign to simulate older and newer versions of Ng track
06:02<JVassie>without wasting more railtype slots
06:02<JVassie>ah ok Yexo
06:02<JVassie>well we could set NG speed limit to 120kph
06:03<JVassie>which is reasonable enough IMO
06:03<@peter1138>yes, you can simulate that on the vehicle side
06:03<@peter1138>bit nasty, admittedly
06:03<JVassie>ah i see what you mean
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06:04<@Yexo>JVassie: what problem are you trying to solve? what would be the difference between old and new NG tracks?
06:04<JVassie>maximum speed
06:04<@Yexo>if it's only the speed: are there any faster ng engines available for the old track?
06:04<JVassie>but 120kph seems to be the fastest any NG loco/MU goes
06:05<@Yexo>you can also leave out the speed limit completely for the track type
06:05<JVassie>Not even sure there 'are' old tracks
06:05<JVassie>i assume there is
06:05<@Yexo>just limiting the speed of each engine will do as well
06:06<JVassie>I guess as the range of speeds isnt that great
06:06<JVassie>30-120 give or take
06:06<JVassie>not much need for railtype speed limits
06:07<JVassie>now what would be a really cool feature are 'points/switches' on slopes! :p
06:08<@peter1138>freeform landscape!
06:08<JVassie>you could simulate rack railways with points on slopes
06:09<JVassie>and stations
06:09<@peter1138>stations on curves!
06:09<@peter1138>(i had a patch for that, once)
06:09<JVassie>and that
06:09<JVassie>what happened to it?
06:09<@peter1138>lost long ago
06:09<JVassie>seems to eb your favourite by-line :D
06:09<@peter1138>it was before newstations support
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>it used to be "i have a patch for that" :p
06:12<@peter1138>newgrf bridges were cool too
06:12<Sacro>heh, the glory days of /o/
06:12<@peter1138>hmm, still exists
06:13<Sacro>so it does
06:13<Sacro>i wonder if we merged a load of them patches
06:14<@peter1138>some, but not many
06:15<@peter1138>a lot of enginepools from 2008, heh
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>give them to MB ;)
06:22<JVassie>some 172 entries in the tracking table so far
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06:27<@Terkhen>do you have more engines than 2cc already? :P
06:27<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, re #2784: in order to allow higher wagons I left space above the sprites, so that's allowed for :-)
06:27<@planetmaker>I'd also prepare an alignment template right away for normal and extended height wagons.
06:27<@planetmaker>Like I have for the pikka-style alignment templates
06:27<@Yexo>planetmaker: you should be able to use a single template
06:28<@Yexo>just prepare it for the extended height
06:28<@Yexo>the autocrop feature of nml/grfcodec should do the rest
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: some of the sprites have darker dots in the middle, those were the original anchor points from my test run
06:28<@planetmaker>I see :-) That's what they're for, I wondered about them
06:28<JVassie>Terkhen: i imagien so
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: some have two, depending on direction they needed different ones
06:29<@planetmaker>Yexo, yes, should work. I guess that works when there are no sprites yet. For the 'normal' vehicles I need both as I have vehicles following one or the other.
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06:31<@planetmaker>hm... somehow I managed to detach this channel's view in a separate window... without a way to merge it back into my xchat one :S
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i haven't researched too much, but i expect 4 different wagon sizes throughout the game: ca. 9-10m, ca. 12-14m, ca. 18-20m and ca. 24-26m, i'd say make them 6lu, 8lu, 12lu and 16lu
06:32<@Terkhen>planetmaker: right click->xchat->attach
06:32<@planetmaker>Yes... though 8 and 6 lu don't need anything special, they can follow the pikka templates
06:32<JVassie>lu = how many px?
06:32<@planetmaker>Terkhen, thanks. I'll try to recall next time :-)
06:32<JVassie>in the ___ direction obviously
06:32<@planetmaker>JVassie, 8/8 is 32px
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: 4px in - directio
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>but this is the second-least interesting direction ;)
06:33<@planetmaker>anyhow, that means we need two over-length templates
06:33<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, do we need the additional views also for the 8/8 and 6/8 wagons?
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>not sure
06:34<@planetmaker>he, ok :-P
06:34<@planetmaker>we might give it a try without and see
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06:36<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i guess the DRG didn't take the 18t/20t limits too strictly...
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>BR 03.10 -> 18.4t
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>BR 01 -> 20.2t
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>changed the limits for the colours to 18.5 and 20.8
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>i made the axle weight column with automatic colour
06:41<Ammler>are you aware that those 1tile waggons glitch or is there a patch to apply?
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>yep, they glitch
06:41<@planetmaker>we're aware of it
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>a solution is in the works, but not quite there yet
06:42<@planetmaker>and... I haven't given eddi's patch a try
06:42<Ammler>what about smaller waggons?
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>the var 60+ patch is not supported in the grf yet ;)
06:42<Ammler>like 80% or so
06:43<@planetmaker>smaller in what way?
06:43<Ammler>soemthing between
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: actual scale would be another 50% bigger ;)
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>so they are already smaller ;)
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06:44<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: you do compare in relation with original set?
06:48<Ammler>(keeping the special scale in mind)
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: no, i don't care about the original set
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: take the DBSet as example, a passenger wagon is almost the same length as a BR 01, but the BR 01 is twice as long in the game
06:52<Ammler>I had some 4LV feelings as I watched the train going around on my circle :-)
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06:56<Eddi|zuHause>yes, indeed, they do have some relation. but imho the 4LV vehicles are too high
06:56<@peter1138>so are the screenshots yet?
06:56<Ammler>on the curves, they are nice
06:56<@planetmaker>there's a test grf, peter1138
06:57<Ammler>but climbing tiles and tunnels could use some love :-)
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: yep, read and
06:58<@planetmaker>which is basically eddi's original implementation as an engine becoming available in 1877
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07:04<@peter1138>hmm, not too bad
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>currently known glitches are: tunnel, bridge, foundation, slope. also sometimes wagons are not drawn in the right order
07:06<JVassie>sounds to me ike we should also provide support for 'normal' scale ;p
07:06<+michi_cc>planetmaker: Shorter wagons might still need the same tricks as the longer wagons. Otherwise mixing short and long wagons will look very weired in curves.
07:07<+michi_cc>Or try to patch OpenTTD to eliminate those issues wherever possible :)
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>i fear shorter wagons might suffer from fs#3569-related glitches (point 5 in the above post)
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>because you can't extend the last wagon part to 8lu
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>or shorter wagons consist of one part, and use var45 related to the actual wagon before/after it
07:09<@planetmaker>the latter is what I thought of
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>only doesn't work with the last wagon ;)
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>(or the first)
07:10<@planetmaker>well... that could get an extra case.
07:10<@planetmaker>first and last vehicle of a chain is relatively easily queried for
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>well, it'll be have like the first wagon is always directly straight related to the non-existing wagon
07:11<@planetmaker>michi_cc, and patching OpenTTD is indeed an option ;-)
07:12<@planetmaker>but this all then needs careful testing.
07:13<Ammler>the ugly thing on the original set are the gaps between waggons, not sure, if I missed the long waggons
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>there are plenty of sets with not-long-wagons ;)
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07:15<@planetmaker>s/plenty/only/ ;-)
07:16<Ammler>yes, just mean if wagons are adjacent, do you miss this feature?
07:16<@planetmaker>the gaps?
07:16<@planetmaker>why should I miss that?
07:16<Ammler>(the one 1tile wagons)
07:17<Ammler>you don't see single wagons on a new generation train from the newer sets
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07:30<Sacro>:\ everyone has gone
07:34<@peter1138>why has nobody replaced engines with real-time 3d models yet?
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: intro date of the BR 44 maybe increase to 1937 (that's when series production started), before that, the BR 43 was preferred
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08:08<@planetmaker>ok :-) I haven't yet looked thoroughly at balancing and intro dates in the post ~1920 era
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>the idea sounded so good to me that i just did it ;)
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08:18<@planetmaker>:-) excellent
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>something doesn't sound right: engine with additional tender: 57t, almost identical engine with builtin tender: 74t
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>maybe they forgot the additional tender in the weight
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08:22<@planetmaker>in the first case? Probably
08:23<@planetmaker>because a separate vehicle doesn't add to the vehicles mass itself and its axle weight
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>but the total weight that must be moved
08:23<@planetmaker>as do all other wagons
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>(and braked)
08:23<@planetmaker>but different tenders may be used, so it might not make too much sense to include an arbitrary one
08:24<@planetmaker>while a built-in is clearly part of the vehicle and has well-defined properties
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>tender carries 16m³ water, 6t coal, and weighs something itself
08:24<@planetmaker>thus like 25 ... 30t
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08:26<Eddi|zuHause>i'll just add 30 to the number then... should be good enough ;)
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>(or keep it like it is, and check if that was done to the other engines as well, where it isn't that apparent?)
08:28<@planetmaker>I'd add the weight and check others
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think the other engines did it like this, they have empty and full mass given
08:30<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: What about for a light cargo engine, that category is a bit thin right now. Problem is though that this would give a slight engine bunching around 1928 (and the electrics add to that as well). OTOH, the engines fall into three different axle weights, so it might be okay here.
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: i wasn't that far yet
08:32<+michi_cc>NP, I was just looking for something for the light cargo category. I'm going to add it to the engine list anyway, core/ext/whatever can come later.
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08:40<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not quite content with choosing the T18
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08:46<@planetmaker>what's wrong about it?
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09:52<JVassie>whats the greyish background colour on the timeline Eddi|zuHause?
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>that's a blue-ish colour
09:53<JVassie>oh :p
09:53<JVassie>and the different shades indicate?
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09:56<+michi_cc>JVassie: look at the top row :)
09:56<JVassie>those are the different colours
09:57<JVassie>im just wondering why some of the greens are lighter than others
09:57<JVassie>for example
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09:59<+michi_cc>Because a different colour is easier to differentiate.
09:59<JVassie>gotcha :)
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10:11<@planetmaker>nice progress on the timeline chart :-)
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>yep, looking good :)
10:14<JVassie>also Eddi|zuHause; why the vertical line dividign Express into tow?
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>what line?
10:15<JVassie>i see 3 columns in the timeline for express
10:15<JVassie>there is a vertical lien between the 2nd and 3rd columns
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10:24<+michi_cc>Now there isn't :)
10:26<JVassie>yeah i fixed it :p
10:26<JVassie>couldnt see a need for it
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure i removed that line when i added the column, and it didn't show up here
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10:36<ZirconiumX>meh - haven't been here for a while
10:36<ZirconiumX>hello all
10:37<ZirconiumX>I come with a programming question - and to haunt
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10:37<ZirconiumX>what is the ideal amount of assertions
10:37<ZirconiumX>and how do you use an assertion
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10:42*ZirconiumX appears to be talking to a brick wall
10:42*ZirconiumX talks to the one to his right
10:44<@Terkhen>ideal amount of assertions = one for each place that requires an assertion
10:45<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Another railtype? ;)
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>yep ;)
10:45<@planetmaker>assert(patient > sufficient)
10:45<@Terkhen> <--- and for their uses
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>i'm thinking two, actually
10:45<ZirconiumX>what the heck is an assertion other than an annoying error
10:45<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, what for?
10:45<@Terkhen>openttd assertions probably does not follow those rules though
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>3rd rail
10:45<@Terkhen>ZirconiumX: errors that should never be triggered
10:45<@Terkhen>if they are triggered, then either the assertion is wrong or your code is wrong
10:45<@planetmaker>hm... :-S
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>one "light" (either A or B) and one "heavy" (C)
10:47<+michi_cc>I'd use only one axle weight and instead include a 3rd + catenary. Two axle weights only make sense if there are several engines at the same time.
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think combined 3rd-rail+catenary is too realistic
10:48<ZirconiumX>@calc 8*16
10:48<@DorpsGek>ZirconiumX: 128
10:48<ZirconiumX>thank DorpsGEk
10:48<ZirconiumX>thanks DorpsGek / village idiot in dutch
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: for example the "Wannseebahn" had 3rd rail on the commuter track, and on the long-distance track, to allow the express-trains (ET125) with 120km/h to overtake the other trains with 80km/h
10:49<@planetmaker>well. We IMHO we should not need a separate track type for 3rd rail. That label is already there
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>the commuter track would then use the A3 railtype, since they are not heavy at all, and the long-distance would use C3, because it is shared with heavy trains
10:49<@planetmaker>thus we can resort to existing track types there
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>that's probably true, but is irrelevant to the discussion ;)
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10:52<+michi_cc>Okay, that makes sense, so the question is more if that is really needed from a gameplay POV.
10:54<JVassie>There arent many german 3rd rail sets are there?
10:54<JVassie>aside from sbahn
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>only S-Bahn Hamburg and S-Bahn Berlin
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10:55<JVassie>mmm, they
10:55<JVassie>operate as seperate metro systems entirely
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10:58<@Yexo>peter1138: what would be the best way to make an engine run on railtype A if it's available but on railtype B if A is not available?
10:58<@Yexo>currently I'm thinking of writing a different value to the railtypetable depending on the availability of A and always using the same index
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that was the original thought
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11:00<ZirconiumX>hello Belugas
11:01<@Belugas>i was not gone, i just changed the water of the pool :)
11:01<@Yexo>ok, thanks eddi
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11:08<Eddi|zuHause>there's water and electricity coming from the sky
11:08<@Belugas>pick up your camera and shoot!
11:11<@Yexo>I'll be using action6, as the action7 approach outlined there doesn't work if you want to test multiple railtypes apart from eachother
11:11<@Yexo>you'd end up with 2**num_railtypes actions
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like a good idea
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>bah... there's like two dozen different diesel railcars in the 1930's
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>but all only in small quantities, so none really stick out as "core"
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>and they don't have proper numbers, either
11:18<@planetmaker>the action6 approach sounds indeed much more flexible
11:18<+michi_cc>Pick something that fits into the holes :) Local/commuter could still use a bit more whereas express is quite full already.
11:19<@planetmaker>which actually... I should do such a thing for OpenGFX+ Trains ;-)
11:20<@Yexo>planetmaker: not possible yet, needs implementation in nml :)
11:20<@planetmaker>though I wonder which railtypes I want to test against
11:21<dihedral>lol - potential customer is planing a new website ... "we expect to have about 350 requests per second"
11:21<@planetmaker>@calc 350 * 86400
11:21<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 30240000
11:22<@planetmaker>wow. 3 million per day
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>30 million
11:22<@peter1138>yeah, the fallback approach works when you don't have 5 million types
11:25<@planetmaker>good we have action6 ;-)
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11:32*ZirconiumX has done epic fallthrough
11:33<JVassie>dihedral: whats the website for?
11:33<JVassie>some sort of ecommerce outfit i guess?
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11:36<JVassie>Eddi|zuHause: whats your thoughts on sets from sbahn berlin and sbahn hamburg, should we set the company to SBahn Berlin and SBahn Hamburg respectively? Or as theyre both subsiduaries of DB jsut use that?
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: keep them as DRG, and disable if no 3rd rail type is available
11:37<JVassie>ill start adding them as entries
11:37<JVassie>will give the set some nice early commuter options
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>"company"/"region" is meant as a selector for the different epoch sets
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>so don't do too many of them
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>combine them if applicable
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. "swiss" instead of "SBB"
11:38<JVassie>so merge SBB and BLS?
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>or use "swiss,SBB" and "swiss,BLS"
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>so you can choose either, or "all swiss" in the epoch selector
11:38<JVassie>right gotcha
11:39<JVassie>ill just set company of these sbahn sets to DRG then
11:39<JVassie>if that keeps it simpler
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11:41<Sacro>I need a new mail cilent that supports exchange and isn't Outlook
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11:42<JVassie>Outlook works fine with exchange
11:46<Sacro>I want a threaded view
11:46<Sacro>Outlook doesn't provide one
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11:49<JVassie>berlin + hamburg sbahn sets added
11:49<JVassie>3 a piece
11:50<JVassie>oh derp
11:50<JVassie>ignore that
11:52<Sacro>herp derp
11:52<dihedral>my boss did not believe me when i said what kind of traffic i would expect from those calculations
11:52<dihedral>he said he'd give them 200GB/Month :-D
11:52<dihedral>i had a laugh and did have to shake my head :-P
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11:58<@Yexo>planetmaker: not possible yet, needs implementation in nml :)
12:00<@planetmaker>the railtype action6? Yes, I know
12:00<@Yexo>sorry, up+enter in the wrong window
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12:28<caracal>i keep seeing "tourists" on some cost graphs, which i assume are a type of "passenger", but ... where do they come from? where do they (want to) go?
12:29<caracal>in simutrans, there were specific "tourist attractions" that were pretty much like normal industries, but i haven't found the equivalent in ottd yet
12:29<@planetmaker>you need to play with the ecs newgrfs.
12:30<@planetmaker>One of them (towns vector? base vector?) provides them
12:31<caracal>ah, more newgrf stuff ... which you told me must be selected in advance, before a scenario is even designed
12:33<caracal>i just checked ... this scenario (sw usa) calls for town vector, but that one doesn't seem to be available for download
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12:38<caracal>so the scenario is just messed up, outdated, whatever
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12:40<@planetmaker>and you tried to find the missing files from the file load dialogue, did you?
12:40<caracal>it lists a half dozen, all red-tagged, and says "these aren't available"
12:41<caracal>clearly scenario design, or at least maintenance, isn't a priority in the ottd community <g>
12:41<@planetmaker>then you're probably screwed unless you find that version elsewhere.... or again enable the scenario_developer and allow a (more or less) compatible version of the same newgrf to fill in
12:41<@planetmaker>oh. Then it's... a pain.
12:41<@planetmaker>it's missing good tools And that scenario pre-dates probably the online content
12:42<caracal>apparently yes
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13:45<Eddi|zuHause>please excuse this unscheduled downtime
13:46<supermop>i will not. it is unexcusable
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>we used this downtime to do some necessary maintenance work, to ensure further excellent service
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>so, whatcha screwed up in the mean time?
13:49<@planetmaker>I'm afraid, time stood still without your presence ;-)
13:51<SpComb>excuse me
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13:52<Eddi|zuHause>one can really not leave you people alone... damn
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13:58<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: I moved the E44 to universal because WP says that it was designed as such (and has a pic with passenger wagons)
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>we could maybe join the different SVT into one, with refit options to 2,3 or 4 wagons?
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>the express diesel ones
14:02<@planetmaker>probably, yes
14:03<@planetmaker>probably also a good idea :-)
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>they don't fit in the table
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14:49<Eddi|zuHause>i think DRG/Epoch 2 is now complete
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14:55<@planetmaker>hello Hyronymus
14:55<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, good news :-)
14:56<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Not sure what to pick, but there should be something non-electric for passengers after 1942
14:56<@planetmaker>seems though that VOne ignores us
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>for epoch 3/4: do we make separate timelines for DR/DB? or focus on one first?
14:56<@planetmaker>IMHO we should consider them separately
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: i was thinking making the BR22 appear earlier, since it was a DRG design, just not completed
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>and P10 longer, obviously
14:57<@planetmaker>personally I'd opt to priorize DR as that does not yet exist
14:59<+michi_cc>Regardless of of DR/DB, we should do one complete timeline first (i.e. continue the existing prussian, DRG one).
15:00<+michi_cc>And related to the P10, every engine that was just built 3-4 years needs to get some extension, otherwise gone faster than you can buy any.
15:01<Eddi|zuHause> <- this, probably a good idea
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15:01<Eddi|zuHause>one of those "would be more, if there wasn't war"
15:02<andythenorth>+ wheerrrrrp
15:02<Eddi|zuHause> <-- probably join with this one
15:02<andythenorth>+ hello
15:03<@planetmaker>hello andythenorth
15:05<andythenorth>Yexo: someone has asked me about 'bare tile' stations for CHIPS
15:05<andythenorth>iirc, we discussed that, and it's either not possible, or TMWFTLB?
15:06<andythenorth>or maybe that was something else
15:06<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Indeed, that one looks quite good as a "war gap" filler.
15:06<@planetmaker>andythenorth, what is a 'bare tile' station?
15:07<@planetmaker>to me it sounds like the cargo tiles with tracks which are already there
15:07<andythenorth>looks like a track tile
15:07<andythenorth>"a void platform, a piece of track without anything but the underlying grass/desert/etc. as a station tile"
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15:08<@planetmaker>definitely possible. But... relatively boring, eh?
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>NewStations has such an empty tile, but it has no railtype-support
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>well, it has, but is unreleased :p
15:09<andythenorth>that is why I am being asked about it
15:10<andythenorth>I may be mistaken, but I think there was a problem doing it with full terrain support + new tracks
15:10<andythenorth>don't see why, but I'm not very familiar with station spec
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: looks better now?
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15:12<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Yes, looks quite okay. Passenger engines ar still a bit thin, but that should be okay by stretching the buy period a bit.
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>some realism oddity: the 01.10 (1939) goes 150, but the 01.5 (1962) only 130
15:16<Chris_Booth>Eddi|zuHause: better loading times? acceleration? so its better at short runs?
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>Chris_Booth: the DR just didn't have the capability to run fast trains post-war
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>except on one test track, where they needed 180km/h locomotives, the top speed was generally 120km/h
15:18<@planetmaker>GDR railways
15:18<Hyronymus>planetmaker: are NML files already allowed on the forum?
15:18<Hyronymus>ok :)
15:19<Hyronymus>guess you'll have to wait for Owen to be bored from Australia though
15:19<@planetmaker>at least I think I asked for that already ;-)
15:19<@planetmaker>yes, probably. It's nothing urgent, but there it won't be forgotten
15:20<+michi_cc>It took a loooooong time to get back to the pre-WWII travel time on Berlin-Hamburg.
15:20<@planetmaker>like mid 1990s, right?
15:21<+michi_cc>1997 or so
15:22*andythenorth has turned into a bad person
15:24<@planetmaker>what happened, andythenorth ? ;-)
15:24<andythenorth>I am tempted to troll lego forums
15:24<andythenorth>I didn't :P
15:25<andythenorth>I tried hanging out in those communities for last year or so
15:25<andythenorth>I don't really get on with them
15:25<andythenorth>I like lego, I don't like lego communities
15:26<@planetmaker>This community is pretty good indeed
15:27<andythenorth>lego community is full of people whining
15:27<@planetmaker>that sucks
15:27<Hyronymus>must be the age
15:27<andythenorth>men in their thirties :P
15:27<@Terkhen>what are they whining about?
15:28*andythenorth ponders
15:28<andythenorth>I think the meta issue is that lego is an odd system
15:28<Hyronymus>hey! nothing wrong with being a man in your 30's
15:28<Hyronymus>lol, meta issue
15:28<andythenorth>as a system for creating things, lego is hugely flexible
15:28<andythenorth>but you can't hack it :P
15:28<andythenorth>bit weird now I think about it
15:28<@planetmaker>it needs a flexible mind
15:29<@planetmaker>and it depends on the definition of "hack"
15:29<andythenorth>modding parts
15:29<andythenorth>using third party parts
15:29<@planetmaker>become more flexible :-P
15:29<andythenorth>well that's my approach
15:30<andythenorth>but many people rely on Lego group to 'give them what they want'
15:30<@planetmaker>but modding lego might be interpreted as 'that's not lego anymore'
15:30<andythenorth>and they have two standard whines
15:30<andythenorth>1. "all lego is driven by marketing research"
15:30<andythenorth>2. "lego never ask their fans nor meet their needs"
15:30*andythenorth doesn't like hanging out with retards
15:30<andythenorth>1 != 2?
15:31<@planetmaker>it's two different things
15:31<@planetmaker>It's the same like we never listen to our users. Nor do we meet our players demands ;-)
15:31<@planetmaker>We just do *stuff*
15:31<@planetmaker>Just like you ;-)
15:32*Terkhen finds those complains kind of familiar
15:32<@planetmaker>^^ :-)
15:32<@Terkhen>s/marketing research/never doing what whoever asked things that should be done/
15:33<@Terkhen>people don't seem to mind modding (patches) though
15:33<andythenorth>it (lego) will become interesting when 3D printers are more common
15:33<andythenorth>already people are printing lego parts
15:33<andythenorth>it will make lego system open source
15:34<andythenorth>dunno what lego group will do about that
15:34<@planetmaker>3D printers are quite nice
15:34<andythenorth>copyright is hard to enforce, unless 3D printers have DRM in
15:34<andythenorth>one of my friends is getting a 3D printed wedding
15:34<@planetmaker>you can't enforce a printer to not print an arbitrary piece of lego...
15:35<andythenorth>with enough computing power you could...
15:35<andythenorth>pattern matching...
15:35<@planetmaker>those people using them for rapid prototyping will LOVE it
15:36<andythenorth>they are quite cool
15:36<andythenorth>already in this city, Airbus are printing airplane parts with them
15:36<andythenorth>*large* airplane parts
15:36<@Terkhen>oooh, that sounds interesting :)
15:37<@planetmaker>I wonder... those 3D printer output is a kind of dust with glue...
15:38<andythenorth>titanium in airbus case
15:38<@planetmaker>he, that *is* interesting technique
15:38<andythenorth>maybe I buy one:
15:39<andythenorth>maybe I print pixel art
15:39*andythenorth ponders printing ottd :P
15:39<@planetmaker>I wonder what the 100g of 'ink' cost
15:40<@Terkhen>(cost of normal printer ink) ** 3
15:40<@planetmaker>I mean... I 'play' with dust which costs in the range of 100g = 1000 ... 5000€
15:41<@planetmaker>but that's no use for printing and is just plain sand chemically speaking ;-)
15:41<andythenorth>my friend was a phd student
15:41<andythenorth>she was making gears by depositing individual crystals
15:41<andythenorth>nudged into place with lasers
15:42*andythenorth doesn't do that :P
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15:48*andythenorth ponders doing some game
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15:57<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: so.. whom should we recruit as sprite artist? Or is in this channel anyone person daring to take on the trains of central Europe?
15:59<+michi_cc>Not me :) At least definitely not for anything more than pushing two or three pixels around
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15:59<@planetmaker>Though we could well start without sprites
16:00<@planetmaker>like... green and blue boxes driving around
16:00<@planetmaker>with a puff of smoke or an electric spark emitted from the first one...
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>good test for the templates ;)
16:02<+michi_cc>Maybe we should patch OpenTTD first :) I was wondering how hard it would be to implement non-bending articulated vehicles natively. If we could then use three sprites for each wagon, most glitches should be gone.
16:03<@Terkhen>use coloured boxes, the first person that gets annoyed by the boxes is promoted to sprite artist
16:03<@Terkhen>and IIRC there was an extensive post about the issues at the long road vehicles thread
16:04<@planetmaker>oh, eddi has an extensive post on the issues with this very thing about trains ;-)
16:05<@Terkhen>ok :)
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: and
16:06<andythenorth>planetmaker: you could try and recruit DanMacK
16:06<andythenorth>I am worried he has lost his mojo :(
16:06<andythenorth>but probably he is over-committed, and a new project is the last thing he needs :(
16:06<andythenorth>recruit Pikka!
16:07<andythenorth>recruit MB!
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>currently unsolved is the part of Extra-Callback-Info being set when called from a GUI (vehicle details, vehicle list)
16:07<andythenorth>neko can actually draw it turns out
16:07<@Terkhen>there is someone who can draw missing from your volunteer list, andythenorth :P
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure i'd be able to survive that many intensive conversations with neko...
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>why does "Personenwagen der Güterwagenbauart" sound so evil...
16:08<andythenorth>now I have to remember to switch FIRS branch :P
16:09<andythenorth>how do I ensure I'm at the head of the branch?
16:09<@planetmaker>he... sometimes ignorance could be a blessing, I guess
16:10<@planetmaker>hg up, andythenorth
16:10<@planetmaker>it doesn't update accross branches
16:10<andythenorth>I did hg up 'branch(default)'
16:10<andythenorth>hg branch tells me 'default'
16:10<andythenorth>but hg tip tells me 0.6
16:10<andythenorth>which is ok?
16:11<@planetmaker>that's ok. As the last commit was there
16:11<@planetmaker>tip = last commit
16:11<andythenorth>that's as should be then
16:11<@planetmaker>hg parent
16:11<andythenorth>yep that's all fine then
16:11<andythenorth>no drama
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>"hg heads" may be interesting
16:14<andythenorth>I need a new photostrop
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16:20<@Terkhen>oh :(
16:26<@Terkhen>good night
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i'm fairly sure now that weight is usually given without the extra tender
16:27<@planetmaker>good night Terkhen
16:28<andythenorth>change the tender weight according to distance travelled :P
16:28<andythenorth>cb36 probably can't do that :P
16:29<@planetmaker>interesting, Eddi|zuHause
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and make speed = 1/3 when it's empty? :p
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>i think trains need a "turn around" time
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>so engines which can go same speed backwards have lower time
16:31<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: speed = 1/6 when it's empty :P
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>and push/pull service is fastest
16:32<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: in the time chart: are that still real times or already some game-play adjusted?
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: those are still real
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: gameplay would probably best if an engine is at least available until the next of the same category
16:34<@planetmaker>of course
16:34<@planetmaker>I just wondered :-)
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16:35<+michi_cc>I'd say some gaps are quite okay, to provide a bit of a challenge that you don't always have the perfect engine. Obviously, the gaps can't be too big.
16:37<@planetmaker>some yes, we have 6 or 7 categories. But sometimes the gaps are at the same time
16:39<+michi_cc>Sure, just like an engine that can only be bought 2-3 years is useless.
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17:11<@Yexo>andythenorth: the problem for a bare station tile is indeed climate support
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17:11<andythenorth>it can't be done? Or it's tmwftlb?
17:12<@Yexo>the "ground tile" for stations has to be some default tile, otherwise it doesn't work with railtypes
17:12<@Yexo>that means that if you want snow/desert etc. you have to create an overlay with just snow/desert
17:12<@Yexo>but having the overlay in the newgrf means you can't properly support both the TTD baseset and OpenGFX
17:12<@Yexo>you'll have to chose either one
17:12<andythenorth>we can't switch the ground tile depending on terrain? (like industries)
17:13<@Yexo>the ground tile can't be switched, there is a static value that has to be used or railtypes don't work
17:13<andythenorth>no branching to alternative layout?
17:13<andythenorth>that's how FIRS does it for forests etc
17:13<@Yexo>sure, but that alternative layout has to have the same groundtile
17:13<andythenorth>I see the issue in that case
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17:14<andythenorth>I assume there are 'hysterical raisins' for stations being so different to industries :P
17:14<andythenorth>wrt layouts
17:14<@Yexo>yes, there are indeed: different coders for ttdpatch who designed the specs individually
17:14<andythenorth>what larks
17:15<andythenorth>advanced sprite layouts are available for stations?
17:15<@Yexo>but nforenum doesn't support advanced sprite layouts in action0, ie for stations
17:15<@Yexo>frosch123 has an incomplete patch for that
17:16<andythenorth>I'll tell him it can't be done ;)
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17:19*andythenorth -> bed
17:19<andythenorth>good night
17:19<@Yexo>gn andythenorth
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18:10<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: do you have gimp installed and in the path?
18:10<@planetmaker>I wonder whether I could make it a build dependency ;-)
18:11<@planetmaker>so in principle yes ;-)
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18:15<@planetmaker>that'd allow us to operate directly on xcf or psd files, no need for png then
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18:23<Night>Hi there, this.. is going to seem newbie-ish
18:24<Night>but i was wondering, is it possible to develop an AI in C/C++?
18:24<@planetmaker>that'll not be supported
18:24<@Yexo>depending on your definition of "possible". However it's not supported
18:25<@Yexo>of course if you hack at the code enough it's possible, but you will be on your own
18:25<Night>ah okay, i see.
18:26<Night>so squirrel it is
18:26<Night>any tips on getting started?
18:27<@Yexo>the wiki:
18:27<@planetmaker>And have a look at existing AIs
18:27<@planetmaker>many are GPL v2-licensed
18:27<@Yexo>and the forum for info and code form existing AIs:
18:28<@Yexo>and I would recommend this IRC channel if you have any questions, but you obviously already found it :)
18:28<JVassie>hi all
18:28<@Yexo>hey JVassie
18:29<Night>sorry if i appear clueless, i was challanged to write an AI by a friend, figured id ask around here before i got started
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18:30<@Yexo>do you have any prior programming experience?
18:30<Night>professionally im a C++ developer
18:31<@Yexo>great. Writing a good AI is very hard, so that helps a lot
18:31<@Yexo>I'd advise to start with (very boring) aircraft, just to get a feel for the API / how things work
18:31<@Yexo>after that try road vehicles, and if you feel really adventures try a train AI
18:32<Night>whats squirrel like? at a glance it looked like C...
18:33<@Yexo>it looks a lot like C++
18:33<@Yexo>or C for that matter
18:33<Night>(sorry i use C for the C derived languages, its a bad habit im trying to get rid of)
18:34<Night>C with classes C++ java etc.. habit i picked up from my professor.
18:34<@Yexo>official documentation can be found here:
18:34<@Yexo>it might be easier to pick up the syntax by reading other AIs though
18:35<Night>alright ill look at the tutorial AI
18:35<Night>thanks for the pointers
18:35<Night>.... pun not intended.
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18:44<JVassie>is there any way to change the default size of the station gui?
18:44<JVassie>so that it doesnt display the list of tiles in the class in a single column?
18:45<@Yexo>you should be able to change that in the code
18:45<JVassie>how hard is it to add it as an advanced option in the menu?
18:45<@planetmaker>that'd be wrong IMHO. But it could remember the size
18:46<@Yexo>not sure, but not trivial since the default size is a hardcoded constant
18:46<@Yexo>and I agree with planetmaker
18:46<JVassie>meh :p
18:46<JVassie>tis a pet peeve of mine
18:47<@Yexo>if it would remember the size it'd be a problem only once per time you start openttd
18:48<JVassie>that'd be fine tbh :p
18:48<JVassie>openttd rarely gets closed anyway
18:49<JVassie>but even still, would greatly reduce the problem :)
18:49<JVassie>cause often i need to demolish a tile, landscape here or there
18:49<JVassie>go back to build (more) station tiles, and the window is shrunk again :p
18:50<@planetmaker>Yexo: this remembering could even perpetuate through the cfg to a restart. But it (just) has no place in the GUI of the adv. settings
18:50<@Yexo>hmm, true
18:53<@planetmaker>but I have a place in my bed now ;-)
18:53<@planetmaker>Good night
18:53<@Yexo>gn planetmaker
18:54<Sacro>I want to blast out Holst
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19:22<Eddi|zuHause>hm... BR 130 for 140km/h (only few prototypes) and BR 132 for 120 km/h? or only one of them?
19:23<fjb>I wouldn't include prototypes in the base set.
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>but it's basically the only way to introduce anything faster than 120km/h
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19:26<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: we alread included the BR 23, of which only 2 were built due to the war
19:28<fjb>That BR 23 was totally different from the post war BR 23
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>there was a post-war DB 23 and post-war DR 23
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19:34<fjb>The prototypes were different from both.
19:36<JVassie>Eddi|zuHause: the timeline your working on is german stuff only right?
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: yes, currently we want to finish one series, but you can make your own timeline
19:37<JVassie>no worries
19:37<JVassie>just checking
19:37<JVassie>maybe rename the sheet to clarify?
19:38<JVassie>its not just epoch 1-2 these days
19:38<JVassie>perhaps German Series Timeline ?
19:38<JVassie>Core German Series Timeline*
19:38<JVassie>kk :p
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: there were prototypes of 130 without heating, and then there were the first of the 132 with heating, which got renumbered to 130
19:41<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: and then there were some that were rebuilt to 140km/h after reunification
19:42<JVassie>well we need express more than universal for 1970
19:43<JVassie>also Eddi|zuHause, the letters you are appending mean what please?
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>the axle scheme?
19:44<JVassie>i see O, R and N
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>oh, those
19:45<Eddi|zuHause>mean "Ost" (east), "Reko" (reconstruction) and "Neubau" (new)
19:45<JVassie>ah kk
19:46<Eddi|zuHause>to avoid possible conflicts with western engines of same number
19:47<JVassie>wonder if there will be m/any SBB/BLS stuff not in core :p
19:51<JVassie>I think the ET30 should definitely be in the core
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20:00*fjb wonders where his BLS engine stats book is.
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>which one is the ET30?
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>don't see anything by that name
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20:30<JVassie>Eddi|zuHause: intro 1956
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20:31<Eddi|zuHause>ah... DB stuff...
20:31<JVassie>1927 in my current game and 66 trains :D
20:31<Eddi|zuHause>no, i'm not looking at that currently
20:32<JVassie>oh which 14 are freight
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20:35<JVassie>nn guys
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---Logclosed Thu Jun 23 00:00:07 2011