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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-06-23

---Logopened Thu Jun 23 00:00:07 2011
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02:01<@Terkhen>good morning
02:05<@planetmaker>moin
02:05<@Terkhen>hi planetmaker
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03:34<JVassie>morning all
03:35<@Terkhen>hi JVassie
03:35<JVassie>:)
03:46<@planetmaker>moin JVassie
03:47<JVassie>hows it going?
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04:25<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22606 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r22518): 20 is not the successor of 19 in NewGRF context.
04:26<Noldo_>1A is?
04:27<@planetmaker>^
04:27<JVassie>lawl
04:28<frosch123>:)
04:28<@peter1138>heh
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04:35<andythenorth>morn
04:35<JVassie>moan
04:37<andythenorth>hmm
04:37<andythenorth>FIRS grain mill sucks
04:37<andythenorth>needs redrawing
04:41<JVassie>hmm Eddi|zuHause; what was your plan for the DB stuff in terms of the timeline? Will it not be in the core set at all or?
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04:44<JVassie>i guess there will be a West Germany/DRG/DB/DBAG timeline or?
04:44<@planetmaker>JVassie, a user will have the choice for each epoch
04:45<JVassie>aye i knew that
04:45<@planetmaker>in epoch 3/4 there'll be the choice betwen DR and DB or both
04:45<JVassie>hmm
04:45<JVassie>aye
04:45<JVassie>just wondering how Eddi was planning on representing that in the timeline :)
04:45<@planetmaker>(and others, like SBB, of course as option, too)
04:45<@planetmaker>I'd do that in a separate time line
04:46<JVassie>:)
04:46<@planetmaker>copied from the existing DR one
04:46<JVassie>do you think we need the 'timeline overview' sheet still?
04:47<@planetmaker>I tend to answer 'no'
04:48<andythenorth>stupid grain mill sprites :|
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05:32<Wolf01>hello
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05:39<JVassie>planetmaker: your an ace at regex, would you know how to split out postcodes into two bits? egs AB1, AB13, W1, W1B would aplit into AB and 1, AB and 13, W and 1, W and 1B respectively
05:39<JVassie>:p
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05:51<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: try s/\([A-Z]*\)\([0-9]*[A-Z]*\)/\1 \2/
05:52<JVassie>hmm
05:53<JVassie>php is actign weird
05:53<JVassie>*acting
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>(not really sure what your postcodes are supposed to mean, though)
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>(or how they are structured)
05:54<JVassie>a full postcode is something liek AB1 1AA
05:54<JVassie>a postcode like that will in the majority of cases cover a street
05:54<JVassie>for example every house on my road has the postcode HP15 7PD
05:55<JVassie>to pinpoint a specific address you just need house number and postcode
05:55<JVassie>the first two letter refer to the 'district' sorting office
05:55<JVassie>in thise case HP is Hemel Hempstead
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05:55<JVassie>15 is one of the HP areas
05:56<@Yexo>if that's alwasy exactly the first two letters you shouldn't use a regex but substr
05:56<JVassie>it might not be two letters
05:56<JVassie>take for example W1 or W1B
05:56<JVassie>which are in central london
05:57<TWerkhoven>or G for glasgow
05:57<TWerkhoven>numbers can be 1 or 2 digits too
05:57<JVassie>in my very crude regex: [A-Z]{1 or 2} [0-9]{1 or 2} [A-Z] {0 or 1}
05:57<TWerkhoven>G1 or G44 for instance
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: what my regexp above tries to do is find the first number, and insert a space
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05:58<JVassie>so 1 or 2 letters, followed by 1 or 2 digits, and 0 or 1 further letter
05:58<JVassie>my task essentially is i H vae a mysql table with postcodes in (just the front half)
05:58<JVassie>i need to sort them
05:58<JVassie>*i have
05:58<JVassie>i cant just sort because it would end up like this:
05:59<JVassie>A1, A10, A11, A2, A3 etc
05:59<JVassie>when it should be A1, A2 ... A10, A11
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>aye, a "natural" sort... you need a token-separation for that
06:00<JVassie>token-seperation?
06:00<Eddi|zuHause>a "tokenizer" is the very first step of a compiler
06:00<@Yexo>a token is a logical part of the string
06:00<@Yexo>in your case the first token would be the letters of the district
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>it is usually regexp-based, but can have states
06:01<@Yexo>second token would be a number
06:01<JVassie>right
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06:01<Eddi|zuHause>try lex/yacc or flex/bison
06:07<JVassie>ah got my regex working finally >.>
06:07<JVassie>helps if i escape characters >.<
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06:09<JVassie>now i need to work out how im gonna do the sort :/
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06:17<Eddi|zuHause>you now have (token: LETTER, value 'AB') (token: NUMBER, value: 13), and then do a lexicographic sort
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06:30<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: I see you've included several engines in the timeline that are only available for 2 or 3 years
06:30<@Yexo>from a gameplay pov that seems very short
06:30<JVassie>those dates arent availability dates Yexo
06:30<JVassie>actually
06:30<JVassie>hmm
06:30<JVassie>see what you mean
06:30<@Yexo>if not, then what are they?
06:31<JVassie>:p
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: yes, gameplay should be a little tweaked, for new we just included the real buy dates
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>*for now
06:31<JVassie>Eddi, is it worth chalking up NML feat_trains for each of these as we go?
06:32<Sacro>Whoops
06:32<Sacro>that's not an index table
06:33<@Yexo>my suggestion is to make each engine available for a minimum of 8 years
06:33<@Yexo>it that means there would be too much overlap just leave out a few more
06:34<@planetmaker>That's about the conclusion I'd go for, too
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>yes, something of that sort.
06:34<@planetmaker>if two of them are very similar the engine could get a(n optical) facelift without stat changes in its ingame lifetime
06:35<JVassie>Yexo: http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.natsort.php
06:35<JVassie>thank christ for that :p
06:36<JVassie>needn't have bothered with the regex..
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>on the commuter line, there is the "blue wonder" of the berlin S-Bahn, that is basically a failed prototype, but there would be a gap for like 20 years if not including it
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06:38<Eddi|zuHause>and i'm thinking making the Hamburg S-Bahn DB-only, not DRG (even though that was introduced before DB), and instead taking the "Olympia" Berlin wagons
06:38<JVassie>i guess a parameter with options Real or Game-Optimised for 'Vehicle Availability' wouldnt go amiss?
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: not particularly useful
06:38<@Yexo>indeed
06:39<JVassie>why not Eddi?
06:39<@Yexo>we should only use game-optimised values, if a users wants to play with real dates let him enable "don't expire engines" and only buy them in the proper period
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06:40<@planetmaker>quite
06:41<JVassie>I guess thats the easier option
06:41<@Yexo>I'd suggest to leave out the ET831 and make the EP202 available until 1924 or so
06:42<@Yexo>make the E16 available until the E18 comes out, leave out VT04 completely
06:42<JVassie>just confirming when we say leave out, were referencing the 'core' set
06:42<@Yexo>yes
06:42<JVassie>:)
06:42<JVassie>just checkiN!
06:42<@Yexo>the timeline is for the core set, right?
06:42<JVassie>indeed
06:42<@planetmaker>it is
06:43<@planetmaker>extended can supply all kind of... unnecessary vehicles :-P
06:43<@Yexo>mind that all my suggestions are done without any actual knowledge about the engines, just from looking at the stats and timeline
06:43<JVassie>lol planetmaker
06:43<JVassie>not exactly unnecessary
06:43<@Yexo>so I'd like some input on them before changing the timeline
06:43<@planetmaker>JVassie, I only look at gameplay and the related stats. I do my judgement also without knowledge about the history
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: ET831 is a railcar/EMU, EP202 is an electric engine
06:44<JVassie>:)
06:44<JVassie>dont worry i can appreciate that
06:44<JVassie>I think deep down Eddi prefers realism to fun :p
06:44<@planetmaker>I'd not bet on that
06:44<@Yexo>eddi: so you want them both? in that case make ET831 available from 1914 to at least 1920
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06:44<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: yes, very likely
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>could move ET831 to "local" to make the difference more obvious
06:46<@planetmaker>Maybe we should abolish the 'general passenger' category
06:46<@planetmaker>to me the distinction between the 4 categories is not that clear, especially the unspecific one
06:46<JVassie>its medium distance
06:46<JVassie>not general passengers
06:46<@Yexo>and "commuter" is?
06:46<@planetmaker>express... yes. local ... yes and sbahn
06:47<@Yexo>commuter=sbahn?
06:47<JVassie>commuter = sbahn
06:47<@planetmaker>I'd say so
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: "local" is "short distance, low capacity", "commuter" is "short distance, high capacity"
06:47<JVassie>local = current equivalent of regioexpress / regiobahn
06:47<@Yexo>is sbahn a different railtype?
06:47<JVassie>not necessarily
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: some are 3rd rail, others are normal track types
06:47<@planetmaker>but medium distance imho needs no spearate really....
06:47<JVassie>some sbahns are 3rd rail, some are OHLE Yexo
06:47<JVassie>lol
06:47<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Any particular reason for the current sorting order, or can I resort according to company/date?
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: "passenger" is more like "universal"
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i'd keep it
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: no, that sort order is not from me.
06:48<@Yexo>in 1925 there are no express engines availble, in 1935 there are 4
06:48<@Yexo>is the VT04 different enough from the others to keep?
06:49<@planetmaker>yes, that's how I understand it. But it currently adds engines which add to _each_ category
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>we could put the VT04 to extended, like the Henschel-Wegmann-Zug (BR 61)
06:50<@Yexo>any problem with extending the E16 to 1934 (just before E18 is available)?
06:50<JVassie>the distinction between express and passenger is more defined in terms of service ti was used for
06:50<JVassie>*it
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>but better is to combine the VT 04/06/07
06:50<JVassie>rather than physical properties
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: no problem
06:50<JVassie>liek size and speed
06:50<JVassie>*like#
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>the VT04 and derived series were quite vital to long-distance travel in the pre-war era
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06:52<@Yexo>one engine with a different livery depending on the year the it was build?
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06:53<Eddi|zuHause>more like refit options. the VT04 is a 2-car-DMU, VT06 is 3-car-DMU and VT07 is 4-car-DMU
06:53<@Yexo>does the VT62 have some advantage over the 64?
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06:53<@Yexo>eddi: ok, years available 1935 until?
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: VT62 is a single railcar, 64 is a steam engine
06:55<@Yexo>and for gameplay?
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>i say it's very different...
06:57<@Yexo>around 1935 we're looking at 7 different engines for passengers right now
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06:58<@planetmaker>wow...
06:58<@Yexo>perhaps make the 01 unavailable earlier and the 03 a bit later to they succeed eachother?
06:58<+michi_cc>Yexo: Don't forget to take the different axle weights into account, which is why both the 01 and the 03 are there.
06:58<@planetmaker>they're different track classes
06:59<@Yexo>hmm, ok
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: rather extend the S10¹ until the 03 becomes available
06:59<+michi_cc>1935 has quite a lot engines, but there basically all different service class and axle weight
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07:02<@Yexo>01.10 is a different livery of the 01? same for 03.10 and 03?
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>they are streamlined and faster/stronger
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>and if there wasn't war, they'd be built longer
07:03<@Yexo>again, 1 and 3 years available is too short. So we either merge them as different livery of the 01/03 or extend there lifetime
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>there's quite a gap between the G10 and the 50...
07:04<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: extending their lifetime is a pretty straightforward thing
07:06<@Yexo><Eddi|zuHause> there's quite a gap between the G10 and the 50... <- yes, but "heavy cargo" and "low axle weight" doesn't seem like a very good combination anyway
07:12<@Yexo>extend the G10 until the 86 comes out? the 86 seems not much weaker than the G10
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07:22<@Yexo>how different are the E18 and the E04?
07:25<@Yexo>and we're missing a universal or light cargo engine between 1911 and 1925
07:25<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Heavy cargo in 1910 is probably more similar to lighter cargo in 1930 (e.g. BR86) than to heavy cargo in 1940
07:25<JVassie>hmmm a thought guys
07:25<@Yexo>hmm, unless the G10 would be classified as "light cargo"
07:25<JVassie>are the introduction dates your talking about being changed on the main sheet too?
07:25<@Yexo>JVassie: don't think so
07:25<JVassie>good :p
07:26<JVassie>i presume were keeping 'realistic' values for the extended set
07:26<@Yexo>main sheet should keep factual information
07:26<JVassie>:)
07:26<@Yexo>imo we shouldn't keep realistic values for the availability years at all
07:26<@Yexo>at least not too script
07:26<@Yexo>*strict
07:27<+michi_cc>Yexo: I don't think there is a good fitting prussian engine for that gap (or I've missed it so far).
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: G10 as light cargo doesn'T sound right
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>probably extend the T9¹ or something
07:27<@Yexo>eddi: probably not in RL, but given the timeline as we have now it will be used for it
07:27<JVassie>Yexo: how would we provide an option for 'pure realism'?
07:28<@Yexo>JVassie: too many options
07:28<@Yexo>don't see the point
07:28<JVassie>:p
07:28<@Yexo>but let's focus on the core set first
07:28<JVassie>what it might be an idea to do when the time is appropriate
07:28<JVassie>is do a similar timeline of both core + extended without modified values, and see how it looks, which areas are lacking etc
07:29<JVassie>so at least basic gameplay is covered
07:29<+michi_cc>Those players that do care a bit about realism could also move the main freight routes to G10 while cascading the older, less powerful engines from there onto lighter freight routes.
07:29<JVassie>woo
07:31<@Yexo>successor of the T11 is the T18?
07:31<@Yexo>or should it be extended ntil the 64 comes out?
07:32<JVassie>t11 is local, t18 is commuter
07:33<+michi_cc>The G12 could also be extended a bit to cater for freight <18t axle weight
07:33<@Yexo>I know, but the A2 is not a replacement for the T11
07:33<@Yexo>the ET831 possible is, but that one is electric
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>T11 extended until the 64 sound like the better idea
07:36<@Yexo>keep ET831 or not?
07:37<@Yexo>michi_cc: sounds like a good idea
07:39<JVassie>hmm
07:39<@Yexo><Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: G10 as light cargo doesn't sound right <- and as universal?
07:40<+michi_cc>Universal would mean passenger service as well, no idea if it was used like than in reality.
07:40<JVassie>oh the 831 is the ET87?
07:40<@Yexo>ah, that was not what I menat
07:40<@Yexo>I thought "universal" was "light and heavy cargo"
07:40<JVassie>universal is cargo + pax
07:40<@Yexo>ok, so ignore that suggestion
07:41<JVassie>cargo is light and heavy cargo
07:41<@planetmaker>universal is really universal :-)
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: i'm fairly sure to keep the ET831
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>but there aren't really any replacements for it on the DR side, only DB followed up on EMUs
07:41<JVassie>its possible to change a trains name based on date?
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: no
07:41<JVassie>:(
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>unless you write a patch for it ;)
07:41<JVassie>that would be good
07:41<JVassie>lol
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07:42<JVassie>you lot are the patchmakers :p
07:42<+michi_cc>ET831 could be kept, some "eye-candy" stuff should be in the core set (just like the DBSetXL has the BR 05 even if just three engines were ever built)
07:42<JVassie>ET831 (ET87s) were quite popular, no?
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07:44<JVassie>hmm
07:44<JVassie>the stats for it look wildy different to those in DBXL
07:45<@Yexo>extend P2 by a few years and S1 until the P8 comes out?
07:45<JVassie>good idea yexo
07:46<@Yexo>hmm, until P8 comes out or until the S10?
07:46<@peter1138>stats in DBXL are rather messed up
07:46<JVassie>S1 down to S10
07:46<@peter1138>since the behaviour of some things changed
07:46<JVassie>i think
07:46<JVassie>and P2 down to T11?
07:47<@Yexo>not sure, how different is the T3?
07:47<JVassie>quite different
07:47<JVassie>S1 has 90kph, T3 just 40kph
07:48<+michi_cc>IMHO there's no need to extend everything, it makes for more interesting and challenging gameplay if you don't have the perfect engine for everything all the time.
07:49<@Yexo>true, but now at first you have the S1 (with 90kph) available alongside the T3 (only 40kph), a few years later only the T3
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>we could always add the S6 inbetween
07:49<@Yexo>which means a setback for passenger transport
07:50<JVassie>between 1899 and 1902 only pax loco is 40kph
07:50<JVassie>currently
07:50<@Yexo>adding S6 seems like a good idea
07:51<JVassie>or the P4(2)?
07:51<+michi_cc>e.g. 1939 right now has 15 different engines, and even if they do serve different service classes and axle weights, that is still a very high number.
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07:51<JVassie>hmm true
07:52<JVassie>1938 has 13, 1940 also 15#
07:52<@Yexo>michi_cc: completely agree, we should drop a few there
07:52<JVassie>between '37 and '41 a lot of locos 'change over'
07:53<@Yexo>drop VT137 ?
07:54<@Yexo>or VT62 instead?
07:54<JVassie>id almost say both
07:54<JVassie>62 for sure
07:54<JVassie>VT137 almost mirrors ET171
07:54<JVassie>but one is 3rd rail, the other diesel
07:55<JVassie>also a general spreadsheet thought guys
07:55<+michi_cc>That is one of the periods where I'd say that a gap or two between engines wouldn't hurt and would make such change-over periods less cluttered
07:55<JVassie>wouldnt useage be better to the right of the names, so we can freeze the name column?
07:56<+michi_cc>Regardless of that, both the S1 and the P2 can be extended a few years (just not necessarily right up to S10 and P8)
07:57<@Yexo>given both 2 extra years now
07:57<JVassie>betetr :)
07:57<JVassie>*better
07:57<JVassie>any objections to my idea?
07:57<@Yexo>about 1939: for "express" we have the 03, VT04 and E18 all for axle weight < 18t
07:57<JVassie>would make working on columns not immediatly visible a lot easier
07:57<@Yexo>JVassie: freeze the names in general specs? fine
07:58<+michi_cc>VT04 I don't know, but electric/non-eletric is nmo duplication
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08:00<@Yexo>another option is to extend the 86 a few years, leave out the 50 and make the 50N available a few years earlier
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08:04<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't make a lot of sense...
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>could replace the 50 with the 52, though
08:05<@Yexo>the 52 has a higher axle weight
08:05<@Yexo>hmm, sorry
08:05<@Yexo>wrong row
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>52 is the "war engine"
08:06<@Yexo>that sounds good
08:06<@Yexo>eddi: and about the VT137 / VT62 ?
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: the VT137 might go
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>but it is very natural that around 1940 was the "widest" spread of vehicles, at the height of the development
08:08<MNIM>I assume we're talking steampower wheels?
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: what begins with "V" is diesel powered
08:09<MNIM>0-o
08:09<MNIM>didn't know 1940 was diesel peak
08:09<MNIM>if you asked me, Id have said 1960 or so
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: well, after the war, everything had to slowly restart
08:12<@peter1138>germany went massively with electrics
08:12<@peter1138>iirc
08:12<@peter1138>well, i wouldn't remember, as such
08:12<@peter1138>i'm not _that_ old
08:12<MNIM>granted, germany had to do pretty much everything from scratch so they went electric
08:13<MNIM>but as far as Im aware, giant portions of the americas are still dieseled on even today
08:13<MNIM>where, on the other hand, have never seen a diesel in this country (in my life, which isn't that long yet)
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: the electric network wasn't that big at that time, everything touching berlin must be steam or diesel. so they had pretty advanced stuff on that.
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08:29<Eddi|zuHause><JVassie> ET831 (ET87s) were quite popular, no? <-- they were used on touristic lines in silesia ("Riesengebirge"), which usually had very low usage, and then very high peaks. but that usage mode is unlikely to appear in openttd
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08:29<JVassie>ah ok fair enough
08:30<MNIM>hmmmmh
08:30<MNIM>no such thing as tourists season in ottd
08:31<MNIM>could be similated though
08:31<MNIM>*simulated
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08:31<MNIM>I mean, if its possible for secondary industries (like an oil refinery for example)
08:32<MNIM>to produce only when a certain condition is met (oil is being delivered)
08:32<@Yexo>of course it can be created
08:32<@Yexo>that doesn't mean that it's a good idea to do so
08:32<MNIM>then it should also be possible to make it so that towns/tourist centers tourist 'production' vary by season
08:32<MNIM>why wouldn't it be a good idea?
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>because openttd offers no options to manage vehicles seasonally
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. "attach 5 more wagons between june and september", or "wait in depot from october to may"
08:34<JVassie>:p
08:34<JVassie>shunting would be le win
08:34<JVassie>not being able to split and join trains is the limiting factor
08:35<MNIM>hmmmh, I forgot that, of course.
08:35<MNIM>then again, the orders are lacking already in some ways
08:35<MNIM>shunting, for example, indeed
08:35<MNIM>uh
08:35<MNIM>wait a second
08:35<JVassie>well yeah
08:35<JVassie>but i think its easier to create new orders
08:35<JVassie>than it is to split/join trains
08:36<MNIM>Im not sure, but isn't it possible to state in the orders timetable to say "Go to X, wait given time before leaving for Y"?
08:36<MNIM>or are those times relative?
08:37<JVassie>it would be with the timetable patch
08:37<JVassie>or rather, it is possible with the timetable patch already
08:37<MNIM>it shouldn't be /too/ hard to add absolute times to that
08:37<JVassie>the base timetable patch works in ticks
08:37<JVassie>iirc
08:37<JVassie>so work out the number of ticks for october-june
08:38<JVassie>:)
08:38<JVassie>then go to depot order, and set the time to that number of ticks
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: it is possible to make timetables, but it is not possible to synchonize them to the year, which has varying number of ticks
08:39<MNIM>hmmmmhhh
08:39<MNIM>eh
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>and it's not possible to say "stay in depot and shut down (0 cost), then go again"
08:39<MNIM>I just checked my timetable
08:39<MNIM>and it clearly says "wait X days"
08:39<JVassie>i wonder how many of the src files splitting/joining trains would affect
08:39<MNIM>so unless the text is wrong -\o/-
08:40<MNIM>and with the 2cc sets, trains standing still don't cost a lot (compared to running)
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: but waiting at station causes costs
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>stopping in depot does not
08:41<MNIM>well, you wouldn't want to wait too long in the station anyway
08:42<MNIM>considering your're throwing away a useful bay that way
08:42<@Yexo>MNIM: not every year has the same number of days
08:42<MNIM>yexo: that's why there should be an option to add absolute times in terms of dd-mm
08:43<@Yexo>or just don't try to emulate seasonal transports at all and avoid the whole issue
08:43<MNIM>true, but if we all followed that mindset, would there be a game called OTTD in the first place?
08:44<MNIM>because, why make a new game from scratch when we already have the old original TTD?
08:44<@Belugas>hi hi
08:44<JVassie>hmm
08:45<JVassie>where is the code related to train creation in the src?
08:45<MNIM>it's not the question of "why would we" that matters, but "Can we" and "Do we have the manhours for that" that matters
08:45<@Yexo>train_cmd.cpp ?
08:45<@Yexo>possible vehicle.cpp too
08:45<@Yexo>MNIM: I disagree with that
08:45<JVassie>cant find it in vehicle.cpp
08:45<@Yexo>not everything which is possible or even coded does belong in OpenTTD
08:46<MNIM>but sadly, to the question "can we" I have to answer "No, I can't" in my case
08:46<JVassie>train_cmd looks more likely
08:46<MNIM>Yexo: well, of course, there's the question "Do people want that, or will they want it" that goes before all
08:47<@Yexo>that is a subquestion of "why would we"
08:47<JVassie>CommandCost CmdBuildRailVehicle(TileIndex tile, DoCommandFlag flags, const Engine *e, uint16 data, Vehicle **ret)
08:47<MNIM>and if it improves realism, there's always people who would want it
08:49<MNIM>hmmmmh
08:49<MNIM>there's one thing that should really be included in savegames
08:50<MNIM>open windows, their positions and statuses.
08:50<MNIM>I keep having to pull up stuff like lists and transparency options
08:50<@Yexo>eddi: 3 different vehicles or a single one that changes over time?
08:50<@Yexo>or has different refits?
08:50<@Terkhen>MNIM: how would that work with multiplayer?
08:51<MNIM>Hmmmmmh. how does multiplayer work exactly with this program?
08:51<JVassie>painfully :p
08:52<JVassie>Yexo, which 3 vehicles?
08:52<@Yexo>ET165 / ET166 / ET167
08:52<MNIM>players broadcast actions to central server, server runs calculations and broadcasts what happens?
08:53<@Yexo>no, players send actions to server, server sends actions to all clients, all clients +server execute action at the same time
08:53<MNIM>...ouch
08:53<MNIM>I get why jvassie said 'painfully'
08:54<@Yexo>why? lots of the map can change every tick. Sending all changes from the server to all clients would eat a massive amount of bandwidth
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08:54<MNIM>hmmmmh, true
08:55<@Yexo>MNIM: keep in mind that the above is only for real actions, ie things that change something. Changing your transparancy options or moving a window around doesn't send anything to the server at all
08:55<MNIM>I got that
08:55<MNIM>so in the multiplayer case, you wouldn't have any benefit from that feature
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08:56<MNIM>anyway, yexo, wouldnt that cause problems in case of packet loss?
08:56<@Yexo>ever heard of tcp?
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: they have almost identical stats, i think it should be only livery change
08:57<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: ok, great :)
08:57<MNIM>IE command "remove road" gets lost, the server doesn't get that command, so nobody else either does too
08:57<MNIM>or rather
08:57<+glx>can't happen
08:57<@Yexo>MNIM: tcp makes sure there is no packet loss.
08:57<MNIM>hmmmh.
08:57<@Yexo>if a packet is lost it'll be resend
08:58<@Yexo>next packets are not accepted until the lost one has arrived
08:58<@Yexo>if it doesn't, then that means connection loss and you're dropped out of the game
08:58<MNIM>ahah
08:59<MNIM>so that basically means that a MP game runs continuously no matter how many people are on/offline?
08:59<@Yexo>it can be paused
08:59<@Yexo>but otherwise, yes
09:00<MNIM>well, aside from deliberately pausing, yeah
09:00<MNIM>so basically, the only real need to save is to prevent "oopsie server crashed, game is lost" situations
09:00<@Yexo>when you join the game the server sends you a savegame
09:01<MNIM>ahah
09:01<MNIM>the latest savegame that has been created the instant you join, I suppose?
09:01<@Yexo>no, it creates a new one at that exact moment
09:01<MNIM>that's what I mean
09:02<@Yexo>ok
09:02<MNIM>well, you could have a MP clientside save option
09:02<@Yexo>you already have
09:02<MNIM>which doesn't actually saves the game
09:02<MNIM>but the server details/ports/etc
09:03<@Yexo>the last server you joined is already stored in the config file
09:03<MNIM>where your own window positions could be added after 'etc', no?
09:03<@Yexo>sure, would be possible
09:03<MNIM>that's what I mean, yexo
09:04*Yexo is still not interested in coding something like that though
09:04<JVassie>xD
09:04<MNIM>separate .mps (mp save) files so you don't need to look up the details of the server you joined the before the last server
09:05<MNIM>*...everytime
09:05<MNIM>eh, pressed enter too early
09:05<@Yexo>a separate section in the config file with favorite servers seems a better idea
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09:05<SpComb>are open window states game-specific?
09:05<@Yexo>some are, some are not
09:05<SpComb>if you're talking about windows like transparency options
09:05<@Yexo>no
09:05<SpComb>you could just save all generic stickied windows when you close a game
09:06<@Yexo>transparancy options are stored in your config file
09:06<@Yexo>yes, you could do that
09:06<MNIM>hmmmh
09:06<MNIM>of course you could store windows in .cfg too
09:06<@Yexo>MNIM / SpComb: of course it's possible to some extend
09:06<@Yexo>that was never the question
09:06<@Yexo>you need someone interested enough to code it, then convince some dev it's a good idea to include it
09:07<@Yexo>don't waste your time convincing me :)
09:07<MNIM>though that might prove problematic in the case of some windows
09:07<SpComb>I don't particularly mind opening up my windows
09:07<SpComb>unless I was in the middle of tweaking vehicle orders and need to reload due a crash or something
09:07<@Yexo>but the crash case will not be solved
09:07<@Terkhen>window state would probably not be saved in that case anyways
09:08<MNIM>well, In case you want that specific vehicle orders window saved, you would need to include it in .sav, ot .cfg
09:08<SpComb>vehicle crashes count as well :)
09:09<MNIM>because that vehicle id might not exist in another game, and Im not sure what happens when the game tries to open the orders window of a vehicle that does not exist, but Im guessing it'll be painful
09:11<@Yexo>so far we already need sprites for 61 engines, according to the current timeline
09:11*MNIM whistles
09:13<@Yexo>JVassie / Eddi|zuHause: has a decision already been made about company colours?
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: imho, no company colours, or only few pixels on wagons
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>but nothing decided yet
09:14<@Yexo>I agree on that / ok
09:15<MNIM>no company colours? :/
09:25<TWerkhoven>could do something like a company-colored flag on engine/wagon (as appliccable)
09:28<JVassie>No CC
09:28<JVassie>no way
09:28<JVassie>*shudder*
09:29<JVassie>got 2cc set for that
09:29<JVassie>and ToE
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>exactly
09:29<MNIM>gotta love 2CC, eh
09:30<JVassie>MNIM, got 2cc and ToE sets with 2cc already
09:31<JVassie>the original idea behind CETS was to 'replace' (i use that word lightly though) the DBXL set
09:31<MNIM>2cc, I have, toe, I don't
09:31<MNIM>dbxl cets?
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09:31<JVassie>DBXL, written by MB back in 2005
09:32<MNIM>which is?
09:32<JVassie>CETS is the set myself, eddi, planetmaker, yexo and michi are working on
09:32<JVassie>*blink*
09:32<MNIM>ah
09:32<JVassie>DBXL, based on the trains of germany
09:32<JVassie>:p
09:32<JVassie>Central European Train Set
09:32<MNIM>ah, deutshe bahn extra large?
09:32<JVassie>mmm
09:32<JVassie>there was an original DBSet
09:32<JVassie>then he upgraded it to DBXL with a few new engines
09:33<JVassie>etc
09:33<@peter1138>newgrf's moved on a bit (but only a bit) since 2005
09:33<MNIM>no kidding
09:33<MNIM>hmmmmh
09:33<@peter1138>i still think you ought to go 32bpp :S
09:33*MNIM pokes dorpsgek
09:33<MNIM>entertain me!
09:33<MNIM>@roulette
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: that's a non-discussion as long as we have no artist ;)
09:33<MNIM>hmmmmh. no reaction. sad
09:34<@peter1138>oh
09:34<@Terkhen>32bpp boxes still look better than 8bpp boxes
09:34<@peter1138>thought someone was already drawing. hmm.
09:34<@Yexo>I don't think we even have a template yet
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker was starting with templates
09:34<@Yexo>yes, but the one uploaded to the issue tracker had some problems, right?
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>yes
09:35<JVassie>An idea i'd had was creating literally a set of boxes for each engine/wagon etc
09:35<JVassie>which anyoen can do
09:35<JVassie>make the boxes the right size
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>hm... http://www.elektrische-bahnen.de/history/mdland/e71_rothensee.htm <-- would that be an easy enough shape to get started in blender?
09:35<JVassie>the boxes can then be replaced with graphics as theyre drawn
09:36<@Yexo>to get started? it should be
09:36<JVassie>And i still think we should have the option of 'normal' length wagons :D
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>(that's EG525 of the EG511-537 series)
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>(i.e. the earliest electric currently in the set)
09:36<MNIM>huh, with those men besides it that loc looks rather monstrous
09:36<@Yexo>eddi: but not in the core set, right?
09:36<MNIM>though short, it's pretty big
09:37<@peter1138>you could always render them *duck*
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: that's in the core set
09:37<@Yexo>the EG525? I can't find it
09:37<MNIM>rendering would be nice if there were models to start with
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>EG511
09:37<@Yexo>ah, ok
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09:39<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: if you assume the men are around 1,70m, then the engine is around 4m high, which is not much different from modern engines
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09:39<MNIM>hmmmh, true, but in general you see 3m at most of those things on stations
09:39<MNIM>so they don't look that big
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>that is a different problem ;)
09:40<MNIM>but when the men besides it fit twice in its hight...
09:40<JVassie>not much of a problem
09:40<JVassie>its true to RL
09:40<MNIM>didn't say it was a problem
09:40<MNIM>I was just illustrating the mindfuck that is perception
09:42<JVassie>;p
09:43<@Terkhen>:)
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09:54<JVassie>nice name o.0
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>another realism/gameplay decision: the prototype of the BR 212 (DB: BR112) was built in 1982, but series production was only started in 1990
09:56<JVassie>wasnt the other version of the BR112 built in the meanwhile?
09:56<@Yexo>let's first see what other engines we have in that time period
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>the 243 was based on the 212 prototype, but with reduced speed/increased TE
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>built from 1984-1991
09:57<JVassie>and the 243s became 143s
09:57<JVassie>and still in use in abundance
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>yes, those
09:57<JVassie>gotcha
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>some of them also rebuilt to increased speed
09:58<@Yexo>why do we have two tabs "Timeline Prussia/DRG/DR/DBAG"?
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>one DR and one DB
09:59<@Yexo>ah
09:59<JVassie>:)
09:59<JVassie>duplicates except for 1949-1990
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: from gameplay view, i'd rather have the 212 for 140km/h available in the 1980's than the 160km/h one in 1990, when DBAG stock with much higher speed becomes available
10:01<JVassie>indeed
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>same reason why i think having the 130 is a good idea
10:01<JVassie>in the dbxl set
10:01<JVassie>you get the BR120, BR112 and BR101 within a ew short years
10:02<JVassie>*few
10:02<@peter1138>make all possible engines available and let the player decide ;)
10:02<JVassie>all of which are really only useable for ICs
10:02<JVassie>peter, thats called the extended set :p
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: we have that option planned as well :p
10:11<@Belugas>sounds like a set very usefull for historians ^_^
10:12-!-sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd
10:12<JVassie>haha
10:12<JVassie>indeed Belugas
10:12<JVassie>at last count we have some 256 entries in the tracking table
10:12-!-sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:27<@Belugas>impressive
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i'd not put the 101 as "universal"
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10:50<JVassie>it is though Eddi? :s
10:50<JVassie>pulls cargo and freight
10:50<JVassie>derp
10:50<JVassie>cargo and pax
10:54<JVassie>Eddi, why passenger?
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>i've never ever seen the 101 pull cargo
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>101 is a high speed passenger engine, just lower than the ICE
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11:03<cicciobello>help
11:04<cicciobello>df
11:04<cicciobello>ls
11:04<cicciobello>whois
11:04<@Terkhen>hi cicciobello
11:04<@Terkhen>what are you doing?
11:05<cicciobello>just surfing
11:05-!-cicciobello [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit []
11:05<@Terkhen>just failing I guess
11:05<@Belugas>so he's not surfing anymore, he's drowning :)
11:06<@Terkhen>:D
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11:17<JVassie>Eddi|zuHause: had any more thoughts on the longer wagons?
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of thoughts do you mean?
11:18<JVassie>ive just been taking another look at the mockup i made
11:18<JVassie>do we need to make 24 equal to a whole tile?
11:18<JVassie>*24m
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11:20<Eddi|zuHause>the plan is (roughly): ~9m: 6lu, ~12m: 8lu, 18m: ~12lu, ~24m: 16lu
11:20<JVassie>there isn't a real need for our 'longest item' (about 26m) to take up a whole tile, as opposed to say 3/4 or 4/5 or something
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>err... one ~ misplaced
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: i'm fairly strong on the opinion of a full-tile wagon.
11:23<JVassie>hmm
11:24<JVassie>just cant help thinking that if we cant increase the height
11:24<JVassie>the wagons are going to look *too* long
11:24<JVassie>and well have gone from one extreme to the other
11:24<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: the dummy engine in the repo is 16lu, right?
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>yes
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>passenger wagon length is ~18m pre-war and ~24m post-war
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>freight wagons are usually shorter
11:27<JVassie>could we make an lu 3px instead of 4px (in the __ view)
11:28<@Yexo>no, you can't change the relative length between the views
11:28<JVassie>i meant the equivalent of 3pc in all views
11:28<JVassie>not just __ :)
11:28<JVassie>*3px
11:28<JVassie>so make it 1.5 the size of current
11:28<JVassie>not 2x the size
11:29<@Yexo>I don't care either way, but you're asking the same question eddi just said "no" to
11:29<JVassie>really?
11:29<JVassie>I think im askign a different question :p
11:30<JVassie>let me rephrase
11:30<JVassie>currently a wagon takes up half a tile
11:30<JVassie>eddi wants it to take up a whole tile
11:30<@Yexo>JVassie: 16lu = 1 tile
11:30<JVassie>im suggesting 3/4 of a tile
11:30<@Yexo>you can't change that
11:30<@Yexo><Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: i'm fairly strong on the opinion of a full-tile wagon.
11:31<JVassie>i thought eddi invented the term lu for discussion in the set
11:31<@Yexo>by default each wagon has a length of half a tile or 8/8
11:31<JVassie>exactly
11:31<JVassie>Eddi wants to make wagons 16/8
11:32<@Yexo>which is one tile
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>"lu" is a game unit, i just invented a word for it ;)
11:32<JVassie>yep
11:32<JVassie>why cant we make it 12/8 for 24m?
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>we could, but i don't want to
11:32<JVassie>the scale of width vs height looks really quite bad at 16/8
11:33<JVassie>Eddi, why dont you want to?
11:35<JVassie>also Eddi|zuHause: http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/7/1/5/1715.1149616800.jpg
11:36<JVassie>guess freight is quite rare though
11:38<@Yexo>ET831 is listed with length 28.4 / 8
11:38<@Yexo>that seems overly long
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: it's 3 parts
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: that's only marginally longer than the DBSet-version
11:39<@Yexo>3 parts, ok
11:40<JVassie>:/
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: http://www.hfkern.de/Maerklin/Dt_Et_87.html
11:43<@Yexo>so 11/6/11 or something like that?
11:43<JVassie>sounds about right
11:44<JVassie>Eddi|zuHause: didnt answer my question ;)
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: don't take the heigh above track, take the heigh above the wheels, if that gives you better scale
11:47<JVassie>the wheels are only 1 px
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that is a lot if you only have 8px
11:47<JVassie>and so it would be 7px, not 8px, which is worse as a scale surely
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>no, i meant take your 9px mockup, and remove the line with the wheels
11:49<@Yexo>I finally noticed what is wrong with the steam: all 3 articulated parts emit steam
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11:51<JVassie>hmm Eddi|zuHause
11:51<JVassie>ill do some more mockups
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: best would be at least the 4 default directions
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>to put them in a game and see how they interact with the rest of the game
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: keep in mind that the - view is awfully streched
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>in relation to the / and \ views, the - is 33% too long
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>and the / and \ views are the most relevant to gameplay
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>but this is a deep game limitation i'm not eager to solve
11:55<JVassie>mmm
11:58<JVassie>64*8 (not including wheels) looks a bit better
11:58<JVassie>with redrawn windows
11:58<JVassie>doors etc
11:59<@Yexo>care to share that preview?
12:01<JVassie>http://jvassie.net/img/dblsprites2.png
12:01<JVassie>only done ___ view so far though
12:02<JVassie>each of those views have had wheels chopped off
12:02<JVassie>and the body extended as a result
12:07<JVassie>thoughts Yexo / Eddi|zuHause ?
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: have an original picture? and really, i do think the / and \ views are the important ones
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>the - view may always look odd
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12:08<JVassie>picture of real life?
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>for comparison, you know.
12:10<JVassie>http://www.activitysimulatorworld.net/Les%20wagons%20passager/SNCF_CORAIL_RESKIN.jpg
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12:10<JVassie>like those roughly
12:10<JVassie>just a 30 second mickup though
12:10<JVassie>*mockup
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>they look more like 20m, not 24-26m
12:12<JVassie>mmm
12:12<JVassie>its just a fairly generic coach
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.lsmodels.com/Pages/General_F/Home_F.htm
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>you notice they have a window more
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12:17<foobar2>hi
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12:31<JVassie>indeed they do Eddi|zuHause
12:31<JVassie>the SBB ones are 24m?
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure those are 26m
12:32<JVassie>gotcha
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12:32<JVassie>could really do with some longer loco sprites too to compare
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>locos are usually shorter
12:33<JVassie>mmm, but in the new scale, a lot would be longer than the half tile they are currently
12:33<JVassie>which in our new scale is 12m
12:34-!-ashledombos [~ashledomb@ris91-2-82-227-26-30.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>probably around 18m, so 12lu
12:36-!-Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
12:36<Hyronymus>hello
12:36<JVassie>hey
12:37<Hyronymus>hi
12:37<JVassie>whole thing makes my head hurt Eddi|zuHause
12:37<JVassie>:p
12:37<@Yexo>hello Hyronymus
12:37<Hyronymus>hi Yexo
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12:39<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 2490/87
12:39<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 28.6206896552
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>they cheated with this model as well
12:40<JVassie>how so?
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>i have a model wagon in H0 (1:87) scale that says 24,90m at the side, but it is 24,90cm (1:100) long
12:42<JVassie>heh
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 2125/87
12:42<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 24.4252873563
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>this one is correct scale
12:42-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>something different, i think the "short name" should not be longer than 5 characters
12:46<Hyronymus>enemy at the gate
12:46<Hyronymus>there can only be one jeroen in here
12:46<JVassie>enemy at the gate is an amazing film
12:46<JVassie>good idea Eddi|zuHause
12:47<JVassie>we at some point need to decide on a display name
12:47<JVassie>will we include (Steam), (Diesel), (Electric) etc after each name, or?
12:47<Hyronymus>is it possible to display an image rather than a name
12:48<JVassie>well you have the depto sprite
12:48<Hyronymus>a steam cloud, spark or diesel smoke i.e.
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: my suggestion was "original name (company/region, alternate name(s))"
12:48<JVassie>*depot
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>Hyronymus: yes, that is possible, 2ccSet does that
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>imho we should try to do that, too
12:48<JVassie>Eddi, Baureihe or BR?
12:49<Hyronymus>Eddi|zuHause: and when you hover on it, can it display a name?
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: currently i prefer Baureihe for the original name, and BR for alternate names
12:49<Hyronymus>*a word
12:49<Hyronymus>like steam
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>Hyronymus: no
12:49<Hyronymus>oh, I was pushing my luch right
12:49<Hyronymus>:P
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>Hyronymus: but it can say that in the description text
12:49<JVassie>cant use tooltips Eddi?
12:49-!-ptb2 [~admin@64.231.19.224] has joined #openttd
12:49*Hyronymus wonders if a new depot column is needed
12:50<Hyronymus>one that makes sorting possible too
12:50<ptb2>herro
12:50<ptb2>i am on gentoo
12:50<Hyronymus>so you have steam engines first, then diesel or something
12:50<ptb2>i emerged opentd ver 1.0.5
12:50*Hyronymus is on crack
12:50<ptb2>i try to start, commandnot found
12:50<ptb2>also i am using enlightenment window manager
12:51<@Yexo>ptb2: you either didn't install it correct or use the wrong name for starting it
12:51<ptb2>and emerge DID download/install the opengfx sfx msx
12:51<ptb2>whats default name for starting?
12:51<@Yexo>openttd
12:51-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
12:51<ptb2>;o
12:51<@Yexo>what else?
12:51<ptb2>guess it was installed wrong
12:51<@Yexo>1.0.5 is old, if possible try updating to 1.1.1
12:51<JVassie>Hyronymus: you can already sort column
12:52<ptb2>maybe i just install manually then i guess
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12:56<Hyronymus>I know JVassie
12:57<JVassie>wish my headache would go away :(
12:57<Hyronymus>your brain can only monitor one severe pain at a time
12:57<Hyronymus>try kicking your foot against a concrete wall ;)
12:58<@Alberth>or concentrate very hard at something else :)
12:58<Hyronymus>that was the other trick
12:58<JVassie>Alberth: trying to concentrate on doing work, not happening
12:58<JVassie>:x
12:58<Hyronymus>but not as funny
12:58<@Alberth>Hyronymus: yeah, and your trick also works better ;)
12:59<ptb2>anyone on gentoo
12:59<@Alberth>ptb2: what happens if you start the program from the console?
12:59<ptb2>same thing
12:59<ptb2>bash: openttd: command not fonud
13:00<@Alberth>where did you install it?
13:00<ptb2>maybe USE flag related?
13:00<ptb2>its in..
13:00<@Alberth>find /usr -name openttd -print
13:00<Hyronymus>dinner time
13:00<Hyronymus>pancakes!
13:00<@Alberth>Hyronymus: enjoy!
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13:01<ptb2>just waiting for that command to return somethingg
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13:01<Eddi|zuHause>-print is superfluous
13:01<@Alberth>yeah, it may take a while :)
13:01<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: for linuces yes, for BSDs no
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>he said gentoo
13:02<@Alberth>and I like to stay BSD-compatible :p
13:02<ptb2>/usr/portage/games-simulation/openttd
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know any BSDs
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>ptb2: that is likely just not in your path
13:02<ptb2>/usr/games/bin/openttd
13:03<ptb2>ping 173.160.242.50
13:03<ptb2>oops
13:03<ptb2>ignore that
13:03<ptb2>:)
13:03<@Alberth>so type /usr/games/bin/openttd
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>man that IP is almost at the opposite of the world :p
13:04<@Alberth>ie first figuring out whether it works would be more interesting than adding it to your path, I think :)
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13:07<ptb2>well ill be
13:07<ptb2>Alberth
13:07<ptb2>that did it
13:07<ptb2>:D
13:07<ptb2>althogh i need to get my hands on the original music
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13:09<Nice>Hi!
13:09<@Alberth>the simplest way to add openttd to your path is perhaps to make a softlink to it from $HOME/bin
13:09<@Alberth>hi, nice
13:09<Nice>ottd 111 runs smooth as never before ...
13:10<@Terkhen>hi Nice
13:10<@Alberth>hi Terkhen
13:10<@Terkhen>hi :P
13:11<Nice>but cries about the autoorders view - do autoorders stay in orderslist permanently, so you have to delete them by hand, or do they dissapear by themselfs after some time??
13:11<Nice>(i misstyped my noickname
13:11<Nice>n i ck n a m a
13:12-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
13:12<Nice>n i c k n a m e
13:12<Nice>phew last night was long ;-)
13:13<@Alberth>if vehicles don't visit the stations of the implicit orders any more (auto orders got renamed :) ), they will disappear in time
13:13<Nice>kk ... thx ... phew
13:13<@Alberth>Nice: long night playing openttd, right? :D
13:13<Nice>after what time?
13:13<@Terkhen>Nice: you can always use "go non-stop" orders
13:14<Nice>no - long night having outdoor party
13:14<@Terkhen>probably after they visit all the stations in their orders without stopping at any other station
13:14<Nice>(i know "outdoorparty" is not an english word)
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13:15<@Alberth>or you can add all station it visits explicitly, so it won't create implicit orders
13:16<Nice>i have them explixitly but do nOt want non stop orders - the autoorders happen when i buy trains in some depot so there are stations between the first order in list
13:17<@Alberth>ah, they should disappear the second time the vehicle goes to the first station then
13:17<Nice>i want trains to stop at any station they pass, i just dont want auttooreders to fill up /mess up the list ... still(!)
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13:18<Nice>i remember saying similar things ...
13:18<Nice>autoorder view needs an on/off switch really!
13:19<@Terkhen>get to it :P
13:19<@Alberth>some further fixes have been done in that area, I don't know how far they have trickled through to the stables though
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13:20<Nice>besides that ottd is now that tuned that i cannot think of any small necessary changes at all, its really ready for the "next big thing" i think
13:20<Nice>*ty
13:20*Terkhen still has a full todo list
13:21<@Terkhen>probably depends on what is the "next big thing"
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13:21<Nice>not sure about that
13:21<@Alberth>or how big 'big' is :p
13:21<Nice>might be "cargodistdestdostdast"
13:22<Nice>"dust" i forgot
13:22<SpComb>cargodust
13:22<Nice>:)
13:22<Nice>dustribution
13:23<SpComb>destribution
13:23<Nice>btw for me autoorders are only "fixed" when i can switch them off .
13:24<Nice>oh suit!
13:24<Nice>autoorders just showed me a wrong depot order :X
13:24-!-Lakie [~Lakie@82.153.139.65] has quit []
13:25<Nice>(explicit instead of nearest depot)
13:25<@Alberth>so yeah, they are completely useless :p
13:25<Nice>so ok its a nice feature, but not always ...
13:26<@Alberth>:)
13:26<@Terkhen>that's why they are there: to allow people that don't use "non-stop" orders to know where do trains actually stop
13:27-!-Nice is now known as Nite
13:28<Nite>non-stop order do not clear the issue
13:28<@Terkhen>I did not say that :P
13:29<Nite>because often you do NOT want nonstop but still dont want autoorders to be shown because they fill up your list.
13:29<Nite>i pointed at it enough now ;)
13:29<@Terkhen>but without implicit orders, people that use normal orders have no way to know where the trains are actually going unless they follow a train for a while
13:29<@Terkhen>why do they fill your list? that was fixed IIRC
13:30<Nite>true that - an autoorders is a nice feature to check how your orders work - but nOt aaaaaaalways
13:31<Nite>a television also is a nice thing to watch the news but still it has an on off switch.
13:32<@Terkhen>whatever
13:32<Nite>yeah anyway
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13:40<Nite>... hav to agree now that autoorders are much better now - disappear rather quick after everything fixed ...
13:41<Nite>i also was not able to create duplicate autoorders ...
13:41<Nite>which is nice
13:42<Nite>... what are intresting servers you play atm?
13:42-!-Pixa [~Pixa@85.210.76.219] has joined #openttd
13:43<@Alberth>none
13:43*Terkhen only knows spanish servers and openttdcoop
13:44<@Terkhen>but I won't be playing much for weeks
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22607 /trunk/src/lang/esperanto.txt:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: esperanto - 3 changes by Christopher
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14:03<ptb2>is ttdx freeware yet?
14:04<SpComb>still under copyright
14:04<ptb2>till when
14:04<ptb2>:x
14:04<SpComb>(for the next 50 years or whatever)
14:04<ptb2>i want that original music
14:04<ptb2>omg
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>till the death of the author and then another 70 years
14:05<SpComb>right
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>and as far as we know, nobody involved died yet
14:05<ptb2>so what youre saying is...kill Chris Sawyer
14:05<ptb2>u cood go to jail for saying these things
14:05<SpComb>not supposed to work that way :)
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>Chris Sawyer is not author of the music
14:05<ptb2>oh true
14:05<ptb2>i wonder who is
14:05<@peter1138>if you just want the original music, you could... get the original game
14:06<ptb2>where
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>on the known or implied locations
14:06<@peter1138>i got mine from ebay
14:06<@peter1138>well, from some guy, via ebay
14:07<ptb2>heh
14:07<ptb2>wow did he have original cd and stuff
14:07<ptb2>er disk?
14:07<@Terkhen>ptb2: IIRC it is also on amazon
14:07<ptb2>cool
14:07<ptb2> i will chekc this out
14:07<ptb2>after smoke
14:07<ptb2>;)
14:08<__ln__>are you smoking to indicate you've broken down?
14:08<@peter1138>yeah
14:08<@peter1138>came with RCT too
14:08<ptb2>__ln__ : yes
14:08<ptb2>peter1138 : cool
14:08<SpComb>ultimate tycoon collection
14:08-!-amkoroew [~matze@p5B106E55.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
14:08<ptb2>pizza tycoon
14:09<ptb2>i rember that one
14:09<SpComb>hmm no, wasn't that one
14:09<SpComb>it was a green box with TTD, RR, and I think RCT and some fourth one
14:10<@peter1138>yeah
14:10<@peter1138>TTD, RCT and RRT2
14:12<@peter1138>the fourth disc is a manual
14:12<SpComb>http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hasbro-Tycoon-Collection-3-pack/dp/B00004UBQ0
14:14<@peter1138>yeh
14:14<@peter1138>although i got it for less than that
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14:15<@peter1138>i can't imagine a 3 year old doing very well
14:15<SpComb>as long as they can't swallow the CD
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14:21<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: The 101 is already doing some cargo is is supposed to do a lot more in the future, see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DBAG-Baureihe_101#Einsatz
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: yes, but that is true for almost any other engine in the set, but the "usage" should be more the original intent
14:23<+michi_cc>Wikipedia (which admittedly can be wrong) states designed as an universal engine.
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: well, we could throw it out completely, and use the 145 (passenger) and 152 (cargo) instead
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>or rather 146
14:31<+michi_cc>Well, I'm not sure if the 101 is needed from a stats POV, but it is *the* IC engine right now, so I figured players might want to build it
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>that is my thought as well
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>but basically any modern engine can be put as "universal", so i'd see it not that strictly
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>what DBAG is really short of is diesel engines
14:54<Rubidium>and trains that work in the winter
14:54<Rubidium>;)
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>or in the summer, for that matter ;)
14:57<Rubidium>what? Those ICEs work perfectly well as advertised: http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmh6bikThd1qca1h5o1_500.jpg
14:58-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc18-aztw25-2-0-cust185.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
14:58<andythenorth>evenings
14:59<andythenorth>Yexo: FIRS 0.6.5 - how soon would you like to release it ?
14:59<@Yexo>soon as possible
14:59<andythenorth>ok
14:59<andythenorth>I haven't played any more test game yet
14:59<@Yexo>the cf has build beta3
14:59<andythenorth>I won't really have time until next week possibly
14:59<andythenorth>what results do others have?
14:59<andythenorth>Terkhen: planetmaker et al?
15:00<@Yexo>no more testing done after that game I think
15:00<Rubidium>those Baureihe 425's Dutch "children" are really well suited for snowy situations. They have extraordinarily well cooling when there's snow, after all... they cool the electrical systems with the snow that's on the track
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15:10<@Yexo>heh, callback for breakdown chance anyone? massively increase the chance when driving above the snowline :p
15:11*Hirundo ponders NewGRF breakdowns ...
15:11<andythenorth>reduce the chance if train contains snowplough
15:11<andythenorth>hmm
15:12<andythenorth>railroad tycoon reduced train robberies if you added a caboose
15:12<andythenorth>NewBreakdowns
15:12<andythenorth>NewNewgrfBreakdowns
15:14<Hirundo>You'd get pretty far if newgrf could disable breakdown smoke (or change its graphics) and change properties (call CB 36) upon entering/leaving the broken state
15:14<andythenorth>'stuck in snow'
15:14<andythenorth>'out of fuel'
15:14<andythenorth>'train robbed'
15:14<andythenorth>new cb: amount of cargo to remove from each vehicle
15:16<Hirundo>As a start, I suggest a flag in the vehicle bitmask to disable smoke for breakdowns, it looks really ugly for eGRVTS horse-drawn vehicles
15:16<andythenorth>yarp
15:16<Hirundo>same for sailing ships
15:16*andythenorth wonders at a new class of grfs
15:16<andythenorth>'economy'
15:16<andythenorth>maybe town control is really an economy thing
15:16<andythenorth>as are breakdowns
15:16<andythenorth>independent from vehicles etc
15:16<andythenorth>perhaps not
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>how do you want to describe a breakdown (condition, effect) in a grf?
15:19<Hirundo>should a newgrf flag 'disable breakdown smoke' also disable the associated sound, or is that best left to the sound CB
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>horses need a new breakdown sound :p
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15:22<MNIM>yeah, they should be whinnying or something
15:23<@Alberth>because a wheel of the cart they pull broke? nah
15:23<MNIM>hmmmh, that's probably better
15:24<MNIM>yeah, in that case, I don't think the sound of a broken cylinder should be used
15:24<MNIM>more like a good juicy *CRACK*
15:25<andythenorth>Hirundo: it should return a sound to play?
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15:26<andythenorth>Hirundo: could a sound ID be stuck into register 100h or such?
15:26<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I won't have much time until the 15th of july
15:27<Hirundo>where? mind, there is a sound CB already that's called on a breakdown
15:27<@Terkhen>we can continue testing a bit now if you want to, I won't be coding much else today
15:27<andythenorth>I have no time sadly :|
15:28<@Terkhen>ok :P
15:30<Hirundo>hmm.. currently it seems not possible to play no sound, except by including an empty sound file *files bug*
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16:00<JVassie>soooo quiet
16:03<@Terkhen>yup
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16:16<@Terkhen>good night
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>there's also the issue that when cost animation is disabled (e.g. title screen) then there is still income sound played
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16:37<lugo>10
16:39<__ln__>if i submitted a patch that did "#define lol ;", and replaced every semicolon in the codebase with 'lol', would it be accepted?
16:42<Wolf01>'night
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16:59<__ln__>i take the silence as 'yes'
17:02<Eddi|zuHause># words like violence
17:02<Eddi|zuHause># break the silence
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17:08<Eddi|zuHause>6. Aug 2008 yapp_r13840_v9.patch ... oh those were the times...
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18:20<Eddi|zuHause>hm... only thing missing now is a "light cargo" engine after the V60 and V100 run out
18:30<JVassie>date?
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18:31<JVassie>BR145?
18:31<JVassie>or is that too heavy?
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>that is not really "light"
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>something that moves 3 wagons in a feeder service
18:38<JVassie>need a DBAG shunter then
18:38<JVassie>BR294?
18:38<JVassie>or one is derivatives?
18:38<JVassie>*of its
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>currently, the West-V60 still does this job
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18:43<JVassie>so it needs to be something more recent or?
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>that would be preferable, but i don't think you find such a thing
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18:46<+michi_cc>So something like the http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voith_Gravita just not that recent :)
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18:57<JVassie>BR214 in 2009
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19:00<Eddi|zuHause>not really "less recent" :p
19:01<JVassie>xD
19:01<JVassie>around 2005? 2000?
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>better would be something mid-1990s
19:02<+michi_cc>1990 or so, but there really just isn't anything tha actually ran for DB/DR (baring a few single-loco experiments)
19:02<JVassie>294 is 1995
19:02<JVassie>or is it 291
19:03<JVassie>295 in 1995, 84 left 10/2009
19:03<JVassie>*BR295
19:03<+michi_cc>That's just modification of existing V90s
19:04<JVassie>why not BR362 perhaps? 2000
19:04<JVassie>quite small though
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>well, reconstruction of existing locos is very DR-like :p
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19:06<+michi_cc>362 is only a re-motorisation of old V60s
19:06<JVassie>lawl
19:06<JVassie>fine
19:06<JVassie>i quit
19:06<JVassie>:D
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23:12<pikka>wiop
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---Logclosed Fri Jun 24 00:00:10 2011