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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-06-24

---Logopened Fri Jun 24 00:00:10 2011
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02:54<dihedral>good morning
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03:15<@Terkhen>good morning
03:16<dihedral>oi Terkhen
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03:26<JVassie>mornin all
03:26<JVassie>all mornin
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04:36<@Terkhen>nice :P
04:37*andythenorth explores exciting world of selenium
04:37<andythenorth>which will be exciting for day openttd is browser-based :P
04:37<@Terkhen> <--- this one looks like a transformer
04:38<@peter1138>the real thing looks pretty much like a regular truck...
04:39<@Terkhen>yes :P
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05:25<JVassie>frickin power surges..
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05:39<JVassie>planetmaker: Yexo got that spreadsheet link handy pls?
05:58<Ammler>JVassie: tracker
05:59<Ammler>ticket #2750
06:00<Ammler>oh, you made it yourself :-P
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06:18<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: err, we have the 146 already
06:19<+michi_cc>Oh, production start was 1997 though and not 2002 (for the 146.0), that's why I missed it
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06:36<JVassie>think weve got 145, 146 and 246
06:37<JVassie>not sure if we have the 185?
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06:37<Eddi|zuHause>i'd probably put the 146 in passenger, not local
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06:38<JVassie>it pulls a lot of RB/RE services
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and "RE" doesn't fit in my interpretation of "local" ;)
06:40<JVassie>hmm I guess in this stage RE and IRE both fit into passenger
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>we could also think about Talent (643/644) and the 425 for passenger
06:50<@peter1138>i was wondering why you'd put telnet on ports 643/644 for a moment...
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06:55<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Feel free to move it
06:57<+michi_cc>The 101 in comparison would be more express then though.
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>101 is kind of a borderline case
06:59<+michi_cc>Yeah, express compared to 146, but not that much express compared to ICE3 :)
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>hm... 423 or 425?
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07:07<JVassie>for local?
07:08<JVassie>423 more widely used
07:08<JVassie>425 faster
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>alright, faster it is
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07:12<Eddi|zuHause>so... only thing still missing is the V60/V100-gap
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>there's no real replacement for the E60
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07:17<Eddi|zuHause>Velaro-D as ICE3-replacement after 2011?
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>(it's not really meant as such)
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07:23<+michi_cc>Either that or just let the ICE3 continue.
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07:36<Mks>anyone know what the newgrf rail with diffrent top speeds on are called?
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08:15<JVassie>Eddi|zuHause: i think ICE3 shouldnt retire tbh
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08:36<+michi_cc>If somebody draws a Velaro D we could do it as just a graphics change
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>i'm thinking we should reintroduce the 290 for DR-only games after 1990 to solve the light cargo gap. otherwise i would consider this scheme finished for now
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08:43<+michi_cc>Well, I don't have the V90 in the DB part either right now, simply because there would be some overlap with the V60, but I could add it do DB-land as well.
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08:43<Eddi|zuHause>we could take the V60 as well
08:45<+michi_cc>Well, the V90 is more powerful than the V60, so adding it to DB makes sense (and it's not like the DB had dozens of suitable diesel engines :)
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>the V90 is basically a slightly toned down version of the V100, adapted for shunting purposes
08:49<+michi_cc>Right now I have both the V100 and the V90 for DB, but I'm not that sure there yet. There's quite some stuff missing from 1970 on.
08:50<+michi_cc>Oh, BTW, what was the reason the stop all express engines at 1950 for the DR? For the DB it would make sense to continue some of them.
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: yeah, i thought the same
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>express service of DR was hit really hard after the war, so i think that should somehow be represented in the timeline ;)
08:51<andythenorth>do you have an artist yet?
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08:57<Eddi|zuHause>not really
08:58<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: The 03 should end 2-3 years earlier IMHO, so we don't have that big abrupt switchover at 1956.
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>there was also the BR 10, but even the DB realized quickly that this didn't make a lot of sense ;)
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>DB practically requires you to switch to the heavy rail types
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09:01<+michi_cc>With the exception of MU.
09:01<@Yexo><andythenorth> do you have an artist yet? <- are you volunteering?
09:01<+michi_cc>Ideas for some passenger stuff after 1970?
09:01<andythenorth>there is someone who likes european trains - Emperor Jake maybe?
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>no, but before the 420 there was the ET31 (DRG), but i didn't really want to introduce it also in the DR-timeline
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>but with ET31->420->425 it fits quite nicely in the DB timeline
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>i think engine-driven passenger is quite well covered with the 111 and V160
09:14<+michi_cc>Something for cargo?
09:16<+michi_cc>Talent 2 from 2009 instead of Talent 1? Gets boring after 2000 otherwise.
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>Talent1=diesel, Talent2=electric
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>(at least in DB-realm)
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>the talent2 offers almost nothing over the 425
09:17<+michi_cc>Right, Talent 1 can also be electric, but it seems the diesel variant was dropped for the 2
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>well, if you can come up with some borderline sci-fi stuff until 2030 ;)
09:19<+michi_cc>Well, the idea was that after 10 game years or so there should be a new engine (simply so it doesn't get boring), even if the stats aren't that better
09:19<JVassie>well the 440 got intro'd in 2010 was it?
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>well, you can introduce the Talent2, but better not earlier than 2011
09:20<JVassie>should last at least 10-15 years
09:20<JVassie>VT551 in 2009
09:21<JVassie>have we got ER20 eurorunner?
09:21<JVassie>2005 diesel
09:21<+michi_cc>How about LINT 54/81, DBAG from 2012 or so.
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09:22<+michi_cc>ER20 is ÖBB for example, but not DBAG
09:23<JVassie>ER20 is also NWB
09:23<JVassie>so it would be in the german subset
09:23<JVassie>(as well)
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>it definitely gets more globally mixed after 2000 ;)
09:23<JVassie>so it would be one of those cases where minimal would 'merge' the german and austrian variants
09:25<JVassie>in 2008 youve got the 'Desiro ML'
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10:01<JVassie>FYI for you :)
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10:10<@peter1138>for your information for you?
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10:28<MNIM>theoretical question.
10:29<MNIM>how hard would it be to switch out the mechanism for placing bridges with the mechanism for tunnels?
10:29<@Yexo>where the game determines where the other end is?
10:30<@Yexo>quite easy, but that restricts you in where you place bridges, so it's not desirable
10:30<MNIM>uh, lemme rephrase that
10:30<MNIM>switch out the tunnel placing mechanism with the bridge placing mechanism
10:31<@Yexo>don't see how that would work at all
10:31<MNIM>well, basically, you draw a bridge by click and drag
10:31<MNIM>Id want to do the same with tunnels
10:32<@Yexo>why? a tunnel is restricted by the landscape
10:32<Hirundo>If you place a tunnel end somewhere, there's only one place where it can end, so drag and drop is useless
10:32<JVassie>i presume this is related to your idea before
10:32<MNIM>which would add the advantage of being able to build tunnels on slopes other than perpendicular to your intended direction
10:32<JVassie>of having a tunnel entrance on a flat tile
10:32<MNIM>yes, jvassie
10:32<MNIM>yexo: so are bridges
10:32<MNIM>you cant draw a bridge over a bump higher than one tile below bridge deck
10:32<@Yexo>but for bridges for every start tile you have multiple end tiles
10:32<Hirundo>Bridge ends can be built on flat tiles, remember
10:32<@Yexo>for tunnels that doesn't hold
10:32<MNIM>yes, hirundo
10:33<MNIM>part of my idea is that the same should be possible for tunnels
10:33<JVassie>Yexo, if a tunnel entrance on flat ground was implemented though
10:33<JVassie>a tunnel would also have multiple end tiles
10:33<Rubidium>interchanging the waterbridge placement for the tunnel placement is trivial ;)
10:33<@Terkhen>IMO there are two different issues
10:33<MNIM>lemme grab my example pic
10:33*JVassie whistles patiently
10:33<@Terkhen>changing the mechanism of tunnel placement is relatively trivial, making tunnels appear in tiles that are not "the next slope" not so much
10:34*MNIM pokes fileden
10:34<MNIM>terkhen: same mechanism as bridges, too
10:34<@Yexo><JVassie> Yexo, if a tunnel entrance on flat ground was implemented though <- that, however, is a totally different suggestion
10:34<MNIM>drag 'n draw
10:34<MNIM>then check if it's possible
10:34<JVassie>Yexo, it was MNIM's original suggestion :)
10:34<MNIM>instead of check if if it's possible, then draw
10:34<MNIM>why is fileden suddenly so slow when you need it
10:34<@Terkhen>with the current mechanism there is only one possible end for a tunnel
10:34<MNIM>or is it my internet
10:35<MNIM>oh, my internet >.<
10:35<Rubidium>tunnel entrances on non-simple slopes can't be drawn correctly, unless you check all four neighbouring tiles for their tunnel (direction) just to see whether a foundation must be placed or not (quite expensive)
10:35<JVassie>i presume expensive in this case refers to processing power
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>explicit foundations (1-tile cliffs) may help there
10:35<MNIM>for some reason requests for pages get lost sometimes
10:36<JVassie>the / direction example is better
10:36<JVassie>the \ direction isnt exactly what your describing
10:36<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: you really think that that is ever going to happen? I somewhat lost hope for that
10:37<@Terkhen>I think that with the current placement of tunnels, those placements are impossible
10:37<MNIM>don't mind the random tunnel exit in the middle of those ground tiles, I should have photoshopped over it
10:37<MNIM>terkhen: that's exactly why I am asking if it is possible to draw 'em like bridges
10:37<MNIM>bridge heads can be both flat and go up
10:38<Hirundo>Placement is really the least of your worries in this case, I think
10:38<MNIM>tunnel entrances right now can only be drawn flat, it would be nice to have them go down like bridges go up too
10:38<MNIM>with the advantage that tunnels can then have one height level difference like bridges, too
10:39<MNIM>in short, it would basically make them inverted bridges
10:39<JVassie>i fixed the image
10:39*Hirundo senses a host of drawing/clipping issues
10:39<MNIM>with the advantage that the land on top of a tunnel can be built on
10:39<MNIM>thanks, vassie
10:40<MNIM>hirundo: well, you will need new sprites
10:40<JVassie>its a very good idea MNIM
10:40<Rubidium>that can't be drawn correctly; you need at least half a tile overlap for the trains to properly enter the tunnel, i.e. not disappear mid somewhere. However, after half a tile they are not low enough to be drawn below the entrance of the tunnel, which we can't draw (it's already cheating by drawing it too high) much higher when there's e.g. a bridge over it
10:40<MNIM>the tunnel entrance can go up a bit
10:40<MNIM>like -"\-
10:41<MNIM>lemme draw that
10:41<MNIM>I need more dekstops
10:41<JVassie>hang on
10:41<Rubidium>bounding box (for drawing) wise that's quite unlikely to work properly
10:42<Rubidium>unless, ofcourse, you replace everything by proper 3D models. Then it would be possible
10:42<Rubidium>but that'd require lower trains
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10:42<Rubidium>one heightlevel is 8 pixels
10:43<JVassie>how about something liek that
10:43<JVassie>that would sove the issue rubidium pointed out i think
10:43<MNIM>not quite, but you're getting it
10:43<JVassie>basically build 'up' around the edges of the tunnel portal to camouflage it
10:43<Hirundo>so the train's roof is torn off by the station?
10:44<JVassie>not like ottd has clippign issues already or anything
10:44<Hirundo>let that be a reason to introduce more! ... not..
10:44<Rubidium>JVassie: not much, and adding more because there are some is a bad idea
10:44<Rubidium>in any case...
10:44<JVassie>how about visually altering the 'steepness' of the slope?
10:45<JVassie>is that possible?
10:45<Rubidium>needs new rail graphics
10:45<JVassie>8 sprites
10:45<Rubidium>needs vast rewrite of the vehicle movement code
10:45<JVassie>i just meant visually
10:46<JVassie>which is the issue were tryign to address isnt it?
10:46<Rubidium>nope... it's totally bounding boxes I'm talking about
10:47<JVassie>quite hard to understand that tbh MNIM
10:47<MNIM>don't mind the lousy drawing quality, you try drawing something in a couple of minutes when you haven't done a proper piece of art in ages :P
10:48<JVassie>MS paint + line tool
10:48<JVassie>= sorted
10:48<MNIM>ms paint, no can do
10:48<MNIM>this is linux, gimp and my tablet
10:48<JVassie>Rubidium: any other ideas on gettign roudn the issue?
10:48<Rubidium>e.g. a train would be visually entering the tunnel when it's at 1/4 of the way in, which means it's 2 pixels down. Add catenary, train, tunnel bounding box and you're at 8+ pixels up which conflicts with the bounding box of the bridge
10:49<MNIM>rubidium: nevermind the bridge
10:49<MNIM>bridges frequently break the bounding box already
10:49<MNIM>just draw a bridge over a diagonal track and you'll see what I mean
10:50<TWerkhoven>pillars in the middle of the track?
10:50<MNIM>for example
10:50<MNIM>clipping issues with trains, too
10:50<JVassie>is the feature codable?
10:50<Rubidium>that smells more like trains that are being drawn too large; I at least don't remember clipping problems there
10:50<JVassie>forgettign about visual issues?
10:51<Rubidium>it can be coded
10:51<JVassie>fairly easily?
10:51<JVassie>call it a brunnel, or a tudge? :p
10:51<MNIM>rubidium: coded by somebody whose biggest project in coding ever was building calculator for IT classes?
10:52<MNIM>(granted, that calculator had by far the biggest feature package of the whole class, but still)
10:52<Hirundo>Take a look at and notice how the tunnel entrance is 'cheating' already, as it's much higher than 8px
10:52<MNIM>pretty much
10:53<MNIM>and tunnels aren't the only one
10:53<MNIM>also PRETTY :D
10:54<MNIM>I should still get around to getting 32 bits on this installation
10:55<Rubidium>I'd say that implementing rail/road on tunnel entrances would be easier, and likely with less nasty side effects
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10:56<JVassie>go for it Rubidium :D
10:57<MNIM>well, that would be pretty nice too
10:57<Rubidium>there are more urgent things
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11:16<MNIM>how would that work?
11:18<MNIM>it would need to work on blending in the rear end of the tunnel in the landscape, but yeah
11:18<MNIM>other solution is to have the brick end work up gradually to the upper arch
11:19<MNIM>and have the top of the tunnel entrance drop back as sharp as possible without making the tunnel roof seem impossibly thin back into the ground level
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11:25<MNIM>hmmmh, no reaction?
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12:17<fjb>It looks strange.
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12:30<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: the back side must be completely flat
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13:19<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>DB-side looks pretty empty because of the missing diesels
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13:22<@Alberth>hi andy
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13:24<ashmir>hi andy too.
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13:43<@Alberth>evenink Wolf01
13:43<Wolf01>evenink Alberth
13:44<Wolf01>hello all
13:52<@Alberth>all seems a bit quiet this evening
13:52<andythenorth>I could fix that :P
13:57<@Terkhen>really, how?
13:58<JVassie>how easy would it be to be able to create foundations next to tunnel entrances?
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: not easy at all
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14:08<JVassie>*sigh* :(
14:08<JVassie>would be cool for staggering tunnels
14:12<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: I'm not happy at all about DB between1975 and 1990, but where to take engines from? :) The 181 is still missing, but very similar to the 111. Diesel-wise everything that was not just some (failed) experiment is in. The MU 628 could go in as it was actually built till 1995, but otherwise...
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14:22<Zuu>hehe, now people can stop complaining that there are no in-game tutorial :-D
14:25<@Alberth>michi_cc: it's a challenge of theDB set ;)
14:25<@Alberth>providing new engines constantly gets so boring :)
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14:27<@Alberth>Zuu: you may want to add it at one of these pages:
14:27<@Alberth>or make a new page?
14:28<Zuu>Good suggestion
14:30<+michi_cc>Alberth: DBSetXL even cheats a bit by introducing DR engines that were later used by the DB(AG) as well before reunification.
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>the 120 might look better on the express side
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>so you have 120 express, 111 passenger, 151 freight, and V160 diesel. plus a handful of DMU/EMU type things
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>then make the V100 or V90 available longer
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>afair there was an experimental V320
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>might be useful for heavy freight, instead of the DBSet-cheat with the 132/232
14:42<andythenorth>should be a new cb
14:43<andythenorth>currently action 0 only
14:43<andythenorth>then a new var
14:43<andythenorth>get region of depot on map
14:43<andythenorth>or town depot belongs to
14:44<andythenorth>then use town control to set towns to different political entities
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: a regional thing needs support by the game, afair there was a partial patch for regional house sets already
14:44<@Yexo>there was indeed :)
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>same may be done with vehicles
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't need any grf-support
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>just have the player make 1 to n presets, and the game selects the regions
14:45<@Yexo>hmm, last update was already 10 months ago
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>then only houses/vehicles/industries of those grfs will appear in the region
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>needs support for having more than one grf-set active at all times. may help with main menu validity checking as well ;)
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>and when we have separate grf settings for main menu and title game, we can offer alternate title games for download on bananas. ones with GRFs in them (unlike the default title game)
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>also, add an m8 on the map array, store the region-ID there, and then you can easily have multi-climate worlds
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14:58<+michi_cc>Okay, cheat V320 added :)
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>extend the 44 until the V320?
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15:01<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes the copy-paste seems to be broken ;)
15:04<andythenorth>you must be using google docs to say that?
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15:05<andythenorth>oh frick :(
15:05<andythenorth>how do I revert to a specific svn repo?
15:06<@Yexo>svn up -r xyz
15:06<@peter1138>revision or repo?
15:06<andythenorth>my bad
15:06<andythenorth>been coding too long today
15:06<@peter1138>what yexo said :)
15:13<andythenorth>enough web apps for one day :P
15:13<andythenorth>how about some .... game?
15:15*Zuu ponders to check if squirrel can provide the byte-length of characters or if an API call is required to check how many bytes town names etc. use.
15:18<@Alberth>andythenorth: 'up' just changes the checked out revision, it does not revert a commit
15:18<andythenorth>that's ok
15:18<andythenorth>it's what I wanted
15:18<+michi_cc>628 in to bridge the last diesel MU gap. It's starting to look proper.
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15:21<Eddi|zuHause>aye, but the light-cargo-gap is still unsolved ;)
15:22<+michi_cc>Get a time machine :)
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15:29<Rubidium>Zuu: can you compare the characters to an integer?
15:30<Rubidium>if so, take a look at Utf8CharLen in string_func.h
15:30<Zuu>Rubidium: Ok
15:30<Eddi|zuHause> <-- we need that in the game :p
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>(transition between tram and railway)
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15:32<Rubidium>but the extremely narrow gauge of TTD trams does not match the railway's gauge
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>there is a standard-gauge-tram-grf :)
15:34<Eddi|zuHause> <-- also this is done with narrow gauge railway as well
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15:37<__ln__>standard gauge trams is the german way of doing things, but is narrow or standard actually more common in europe?
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say it's about 50/50 in germany
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15:40<__ln__>100/0 (for narrow) over here
15:41<__ln__>narrow in all three towns that used to have trams. today there's only one tram town left
15:41<andythenorth>what's the really powerful german electric locomotive that has a window sticking out of one side?
15:41<andythenorth>used for coal trains only
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>france has almost completely standard gauge trams
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>and russia almost completely broad gauge, except in Kaliningrad (Königsberg/Ostpreußen)
15:47*andythenorth googles in vain for mystery locomotive
15:47<__ln__>and Wyborg, which was one of the finnish towns i was referring to
15:49<dihedral> <- nice
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you know whether it was an east-german or west-german engine?
15:50<__ln__>funny, are the russians using 1524mm with trams although the railway gauge was changed to 1520mm during soviet era.
15:50<andythenorth>it might come in two single-cabbed units
15:50<andythenorth>it is too wide to travel outside a restricted zone
15:50<andythenorth>it has a special cab for moving through coal loader
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>yes, there are some coal-only rails that don't belong to DB
15:52<Zuu>from what I've heard all trams in Sweden run on standard gauge.
15:53<Eddi|zuHause> <- i don't suppose it looks anything like this
15:55<andythenorth>that's HEQS
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16:10<andythenorth>MB would now what I'm looking for :(
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16:13<TWerkhoven>Gleisrückmaschine ?
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16:26<Eddi|zuHause>it moves the tracks
16:26<TWerkhoven>yeah, realised that
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>those are tracks at the bottom of an open coal mine
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>they have to be moved occasionally, when the digger got on
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16:27<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: possibly I am thinking of
16:27<andythenorth>RWE EL1
16:27<andythenorth>but I thought there was something similar, with more power
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>"Peter Falk (Columbo) died at the age of 83"
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16:31<+michi_cc>andythenorth: ?
16:32<+michi_cc>Those engine aren't that powerful though.
16:32<andythenorth>I thought somewhere there was a similar thing, but with about 10,000 hp
16:32<andythenorth>maybe I misremember
16:32<andythenorth>MB would know
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>the engines need rather high TE, not high power...
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16:55<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: you sure you want the LINT 54/81 as replacement for the 650? because it's quite a lot longer, so rather a replacement for the Talent 1?
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16:57<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Can do that as well, even if the LINT will probably only do RB in the near future
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16:58<+michi_cc>The length is a good argument though.
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17:00<+michi_cc>If we ignore strict DBAG, we could also include the Class 66 and/or Voith Maxima for a heavy modern diesel
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>possibly, but i found the "Blue Tiger" in the DBSet always annoying and out of place
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17:02<Eddi|zuHause>maybe we can offer "DBAG only" and "DBAG+privat" options
17:08<andythenorth>add on
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17:30<@Terkhen>good night
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18:29<dihedral>grrr - trying to avoid bot-generated server-messages, which are then printed on the console to get sent back to the bot ...
18:30<dihedral>or rather - actually finding out what the heck that thing is doing ^^
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>prefix all bot messages with an invisible character. then filter console for this character
18:35<dihedral>i prefer something in openttd so that other bots do not have to pay attention to that :-P
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18:36<dihedral>i added a flag which in turn removes the need for a parameter to a function
18:36<dihedral>and would additionally bring that chat / messages generated from one bot could traverse to another
18:37<dihedral>i am just not entirely sure that would be a good idea :-P
18:42<dihedral>possibly if i use the same flag to communicate to other bots that the message (potentially) originated from a bot
18:43<dihedral>messages from threaded activity (i.e. compressing and saving the map) could get confused, i assume so at least
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18:54<dihedral>anyway - good night
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20:08<MNIM>okaying in the golden age right now, 1935
20:09<MNIM>beautiful vintage trains and planes, fast intercities, giant station halls, beautiful coastal and mountain tracks, the works
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20:11<MNIM>combined with TTRS, 2CCTS and AV8\
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23:11<pikka>hello world
23:13-!-glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:c9d:ae4f:de55:937f] has quit [Quit: bye]
23:16<@orudge>zomg Pikka
23:16<pikka>oh look an orudge
23:16<@orudge>Oh noes
---Logclosed Sat Jun 25 00:00:13 2011