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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-06-26

---Logopened Sun Jun 26 00:00:14 2011
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02:05<@Terkhen>good morning
02:11<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth and planetmaker
02:16<andythenorth>are pipelines done yet?
02:23<andythenorth>maybe I should remove oil from FIRS :\
02:23<@Terkhen>why? oil is fun
02:23*andythenorth would like pipelines
02:24<andythenorth>maybe I/we should write a spec
02:25<@Terkhen>I'm not sure if pipelines would be fun, you only have to set them up and you are done
02:26<andythenorth>they would be fun
02:26<andythenorth>I think
02:26<andythenorth>there would be two issues
02:26<andythenorth>1. pipelines occupy the tile, so they make routing more challenging
02:26<andythenorth>2. pipelines have a rated capacity
02:27<andythenorth>they would be constructed like road / canal - no diagonals
02:27<andythenorth>and if player wants to bury them they have to use a tunnel
02:28<andythenorth>to change direction, they have to surface the pipeline
02:28<andythenorth>not sure if junctions are allowed
02:30<@Terkhen>still sounds like "fire and forget" :P
02:32*andythenorth thinks other route types have that too
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02:39*planetmaker would build pipelines refittable to coal - and then directly deliver it to the powerplant ;-)
02:39<@planetmaker>maybe also vehicles to town ;-)
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02:46<@Terkhen>andythenorth: even with ships you at least have to decide which ship to use
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02:50<@planetmaker>ships = pipeline style / diameter?
02:50<Prof_Frink>I built a pipeline back in the old TTDPatch days.
02:50<@Terkhen>kinda, yes
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03:08<andythenorth>pipelines can only carry one cargo
03:09<andythenorth>and might only be routable from A->B
03:09<andythenorth>so compared to trucks / ships, they might not be the most efficient way to transport cargo (per tile used)
03:09<andythenorth>which makes them a more interesting tradeoff
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03:22<@planetmaker>hm... only 3600 downloads of OpenGFX+Industries
03:22<@planetmaker>we don't yet use there 1.2. stuff only..
03:23<@planetmaker>which will explain the whopping 60 downloads of OpenGFX+Airports 0.2.1. ;-)
03:26<@Terkhen>we do :P
03:26<@Terkhen>oh wait, it was 1.1.1 only right?
03:27<@planetmaker>hm... I don't quite recall... :-D
03:28<@Terkhen>yes, it was 1.1.1 only, if it was 1.2.x I would have mentioned it in the release post
03:28<@Terkhen>we had no new posts after 0.3.4 either :P
03:28<@planetmaker>we have no version check in the source - or do I just miss it?
03:28<@Terkhen>it must be done already
03:28<@Terkhen>planetmaker: it will work with older versions
03:28<@planetmaker>only that is important really for downloads :-)
03:29<@Terkhen>hmm... but I don't remember if the industries using the town filter will not be built at all or can be built freely
03:29<@Terkhen>but I'm sure that I put the min version of OpenTTD in bananas
03:29<@Terkhen>not much people playing with 1.1.1 then? :P
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03:32<@planetmaker>hm, dunno. There's probably many who only update very occasionally, like once a year for major versions
03:34<andythenorth>industry sets don't get a lot of downloads quickly
03:35<andythenorth>instead you should have made "Super Awesome Train, 1m ton capacity, 10,000 mph, running cost: 0"
03:35<andythenorth>then you would get about 100k downloads in a month
03:36<@Terkhen>we should try that theory :P
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03:37<@planetmaker>andythenorth: we have that already ;-) - the logic engine ;-)
03:37<@planetmaker>it's capacity might be 0, though, too ;-)
03:37<andythenorth>"Gigantic ships" was high in the list for a long time :P
03:38<@Terkhen>Super Awesome Train should also have awesome sprites :P
03:38*planetmaker needs a sprite artists for engines, though ;-)
03:38<@planetmaker>for super old but awesome :-P
03:39<andythenorth>it's invisible
03:39<@Terkhen>if they don't run at 16000 km/h and carry 65000 tons they might be awesome, but not super awesome
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03:45*__ln__ wants the Saturn V rocket as newgrf
03:47<__ln__>119 tons of goods to low-earth-orbit
03:47<Prof_Frink>Running costs might be a bit steep.
03:48<@Terkhen>zero :)
03:48<@Terkhen>you just need to stop earth's rotation
03:49<andythenorth>Terkhen: if you want high downloads, make "hover bus 2"
03:49<andythenorth>or "bigger depots 2"
03:50<@Terkhen>I have been thinking on hover bus 2 actually :)
03:50<andythenorth>zephyris must be far and away the most downloaded grf author
03:50<andythenorth>he has the top two sets
03:50<andythenorth>+ he drew >large amount of opengfx
03:50<@planetmaker>__ln__: *that*s something I'd like, too. In the form of a general thing like 'overseas port' or alike
03:51<@planetmaker>which trades (by theory) with non-map stuff
03:51<andythenorth>planetmaker: you don't think that violates game world rules?
03:51<@planetmaker>though I'm not sure whether it would fit the game
03:51<andythenorth>I'll add it to FIRS some time and we can test
03:51<andythenorth>I think it has interesting scenario applications
03:51<@planetmaker>it might. But it'd need to accept or deliver more than just three cargos. But yes, we could test. Acceptance could be larger
03:52<@planetmaker>and supply... via CB could vary
03:52<@planetmaker>and yes, for scenarios it'd make sense
03:53<@Terkhen>given that it would need a lot of configuration and would be used mostly in scenarios, it might make sense to make it a FIRS addon
03:53<@Terkhen>hmm... and maybe for opengfx+ industries too :P
03:53<__ln__>off-the-map international destinations would be nice
03:54<@planetmaker>acceptance via tiles is no issue. Delivery might be
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03:54<@planetmaker>hm... might make sense as add-on indeed
03:54<andythenorth>easier configuration that way
03:54<@Alberth>hi planetmaker, andythenorth
03:54<andythenorth>it would need to know about which cargos will be available though
03:55<andythenorth>hi Alberth
03:55<@planetmaker>hello Alberth
03:55<@planetmaker>andythenorth: testing for available cargos is feasible
03:55*andythenorth would prefer pipelnes to ports still, if that was a choice :P
03:55<andythenorth>space port
03:55<andythenorth>railroad tycoon had warehouses for land
03:56<andythenorth>worked for gameplay, but was a bit odd
03:56<andythenorth>teleport :P
03:56<@planetmaker>:-) also
03:56<@planetmaker>via town persistant storage :-P
03:57<@Terkhen>hi Alberth :)
03:57<andythenorth>town persistent storage is becoming like some pseudo map array :P
03:57<@Alberth>hi Terkhen
03:57<@planetmaker>cargotype_available(cargotype) <-- one could even make a somewhat cargo independent industry newgrf ;-)
03:57<andythenorth>if towns could also access each others' storage...
03:58<andythenorth>planetmaker: I was thinking ports would be FIRS + opengfx industries compatible
03:58<@Alberth>andythenorth: yep, we are building a statefull second system running in parallel with the program. Have fun debugging
03:58<@planetmaker>andythenorth: yes, that'd be relatively easy
03:58<@Terkhen>yes, IMO it could be compatible with both FIRs and OpenGFX+ Industries
03:58<andythenorth>if it's seaports....we should fix the coast industry location bug / spec failure
04:05<@Terkhen>hmm... the industry limit is shared between different NewGRFs?
04:05<@planetmaker>there's 64 industries limit for the game afaik
04:06<@Terkhen>how many slots are free in FIRS?
04:06<andythenorth>@calc 64-48
04:06<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 16
04:06<@Terkhen>yes :)
04:06<@planetmaker>OpenGFX+Industries has that problem neither :-P
04:06<@Terkhen>I was thinking on completely configurable ports
04:06<@planetmaker>only extra is the shop iirc
04:07<@Terkhen>for example: add a port that accepts X, Y and produces Z
04:08<@planetmaker>accept could be (nearly) everything
04:08<@planetmaker>just make it big enough
04:08<@planetmaker>each tile can accept 3 products
04:10<@Terkhen>production based on amount accepted?
04:11<andythenorth>try it
04:12<@Terkhen>I should be working :P
04:12<@Terkhen>planning stuff is more fun, though
04:12<@planetmaker>shall I prepare you a new project, Terkhen ?
04:13<@Terkhen>no :P
04:13<@Terkhen>even when I finish this, I'll have my hands full of OpenTTD projects already for all the summer, if not even for longer
04:13<@planetmaker>meh :-P
04:13<@planetmaker>same here
04:23<andythenorth>there is plenty to finish FIRst
04:25<@Terkhen>and I still want to code the necessary stuff for starting a mars newgrf :)
04:28<@planetmaker>he :-P
04:28<@planetmaker>I shall be very interested in a future theme like that, too :-)
04:28<@Alberth>but making new planets is the job of planetmaker ;)
04:28<@planetmaker>with vac trains... we have some fitting grf already
04:28<@planetmaker>though it would be considered vice versa there :-P
04:29<@Terkhen>that's a list of stuff that needs to be done before even starting on the NewGRF :P
04:29<@Terkhen>a few things are not strictly needed though
04:29<@planetmaker>Terkhen: I'd keep water wells or maybe rename them to water plants
04:30<@planetmaker>on the surface... yes... sand
04:30<@Terkhen>permafrost mining(ice) -> water treatment plant(water) -> town
04:30<@planetmaker>yes... not that abundant
04:30<@Terkhen>I have not thought much about chains though :)
04:35<@Terkhen>another big decision would be the "goal" of mars games
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04:35<@Terkhen>it could be the same one than with normal games, or it could aim to town growth
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04:36<@Alberth>survival of all towns by being getting supplies regularly
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04:36<@Alberth>s/being //
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04:36<@Terkhen>it would give "found a town" a meaning ingame :)
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04:37<@Terkhen>but it is probably not worth to add all of those mechanisms just for a newgrf
04:38<@Alberth>you'd end up with a goal gui, like in that wiki page
04:41<@Terkhen>goal stuff is probably secondary to the mars newgrf, but it would be nice to have
04:42<@Terkhen>I had an idea for goal scripts a few days ago; I had no time to write it down and think about it so I'm not sure if it would be good :P
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05:09<@planetmaker>hm... goal scripts... sooo many things to add to this game. So many time
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---Logclosed Sun Jun 26 06:06:49 2011
---Logopened Sun Jun 26 06:14:48 2011
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06:17<Lyzio>testng to install this openttd server config webinterface, but it requested a data directory, wich on my install is under /content_download instead of /data
06:17<Lyzio>wtich the program want
06:19<@planetmaker>there's a server config web interface?
06:20<@planetmaker>I'm afraid that version from 2007 won't work anymore
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06:20<@planetmaker>the config file format changed
06:21<Lyzio>is there any site to use to generate a functional config for a dedicated server?
06:22<@planetmaker>there currently is no web interface I know... of course you can always copy a cfg to the server and reload the cfg
06:23<@planetmaker>But especially NewGRF config is... not practical. I do that by means of uploading savegames
06:26<@planetmaker>But if you care about creating a web interface for that, Lyzio : <-- there's one or two such projects which people started but never finished
06:41<Ammler>Lyzio: easiest is to configure game locally, upload and start
06:42<Ammler>then use rcon (or autopilot)
06:42<Lyzio>autopilot i havnt tried, maby i should do that
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06:50<@planetmaker>personally I'd like to see an implementation based on the admin port, though ;-)
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07:23<scn>are there any documentation on scripting/generating openttd maps?
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11:12*andythenorth hopes everyone is enjoying sunshine
11:14*Terkhen is hidden from it
11:16<andythenorth>you probably get a bigger allocation anyway
11:16<andythenorth>28' is not to be wasted here
11:17<@Terkhen>want to share part of my 38°C? :P
11:18<Lyzio>were to change what NewGRF my server uses? I use them on my on game from were i copied the config file
11:19<Lyzio>is there another file wich states the newgrf
11:21<@planetmaker>he, lol. The shadow of a flying aircraft is also visible in the hangar below it ;-)
11:22<@planetmaker>of course the server needs to have available all newgrfs which a config defines
11:22<andythenorth>check out what the shadow does at oil rigs :P
11:22<@planetmaker>hehe @ andythenorth :)
11:22<andythenorth>Terkhen: I normally celebrate sunny days by staying in and coding :P
11:22<andythenorth>"It's always sunny in ottd"
11:23<@planetmaker>Lyzio: if the newgrfs are not available, none will be used
11:23<Lyzio>i have the newgrfs on the server
11:23<Rubidium>Terkhen: I guess my GPU'd like to switch
11:24<@planetmaker>Lyzio: and you copied the cfg there while the server was NOT running?
11:24<@planetmaker>(or you copied it there, used the 'reload config' rcon command and then started a new game?)
11:24<Ammler>do not "share" the cfg
11:24<Ammler>use the save directly
11:25<Lyzio>the cfg have the newgrf in the buttom, the one from the server
11:25<Lyzio>but when i start up the game i dont get any changes
11:26<@Alberth>you start a NEW game, right? (ie no loading of a save game)
11:26<Lyzio>i use openttd -D -f to start it
11:26<Ammler>use -g <save> :-)
11:27<Lyzio>but i want it to generate a new map
11:27<Lyzio>not a savedgam,e
11:27<Ammler>ok, that is very advanced stuff, though
11:28<@planetmaker>Lyzio: also the path to the newgrfs must be correct
11:29<Ammler>you could use cfg template from our pack
11:30<Lyzio>Ammler the cfg works for everything but the newgrf, wich works on my computer and i have copied the whole directory direclty from that one
11:31<@planetmaker>can you paste the newgrf section somewhere (not here, use a paste service)?
11:32<@planetmaker>and what's the output you openttd gives when starting the server?=
11:32<Lyzio>dont get anyoutput from the server, it just says its started
11:33<@planetmaker>try ./openttd -D -d grf=3
11:33<@planetmaker>a server always gives some output upon start
11:33<@planetmaker>and if its only map creation process
11:33<Lyzio>/.openttd$ openttd -D -f
11:33<Lyzio>Loading dedicated server...
11:33<Lyzio>- Forked to background with pid 2319
11:33<Lyzio>thats all i get
11:34<@planetmaker>try ./openttd -D -d grf=3 | tee -a logfile
11:34<@planetmaker>and paste the contents of logfile
11:35<@Terkhen>heh, I'm scared to check my computer's temperature :P
11:36<Rubidium>Terkhen: can't be much worse than mine ;)
11:37<@planetmaker>Lyzio: or... just leave out the fork command
11:37<@planetmaker>that's removing all useful output from your eyes
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11:40<Ammler>Lyzio: I just meant, it is much easier to create a game locally then upload to server as trying to get a game running on a server
11:40<Ammler>(with newgrfs)
11:40<Lyzio>Ammler that i have done, it works localy
11:40<Lyzio>but not on the server
11:40<Ammler>yep, but you synced the cfg, instead the save
11:41<@planetmaker>Lyzio: why doesn't uploading to a server work? That's easier than editing the cfg
11:41<Lyzio>dont know
11:41<Lyzio>well, other time for that, now i have som other things to take care of
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11:42<@planetmaker>you're basically saying tha copying a cfg to the server works while copying a sav doesn't
11:42<Ammler>also maybe you should download online content on the server
11:42<@planetmaker>if loading a sav doesn't work, I'm not optimistic you'll manage to create a newgrf game via cfg changes
11:43<@planetmaker>basically: loading a save is easier than getting it from the cfg as it needs no configuration work
11:43<Ammler>and be aware, that changes you make for a game don't go the cfg without save_config
11:43<@planetmaker>but the same newgrf base
11:43<@planetmaker>make sure you have the server obtain the bananas download, either via rcon commands or just scp it from your local machine
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11:45<@Terkhen>he's gone :P
11:46*fjb waves.
11:46<@Terkhen>hi fjb
11:46<fjb>Moin Terkhen
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12:16<CIA-2>OpenTTD: alberth * r22608 /trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp: -Fix[FS#4663]: Use rotated heightmap sizes for reporting scaling problems.
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12:23*andythenorth wonders
12:23<andythenorth>could NewBreakdowns be combined with NewVehicleEffects
12:25<@planetmaker>though one is game-driven the other vehicle-driven
12:27<@Terkhen>hmm... I don't know what makes more sense for those: NewGRF implementation or ingame implementation
12:27<andythenorth>both could require an effect vehicle re-implementation
12:27<andythenorth>personally I think full newgrf effect vehicles is overkill
12:27<andythenorth>and drawing them would be a PITA
12:27<andythenorth>the quality is likely to be low
12:28<@planetmaker>drawing them would be required anyway...
12:28<andythenorth>but vehicle movement effects and breakdown effects should be able to better use current effect vehicles
12:28<andythenorth>wrt placement etc
12:28<@Terkhen>what is lacking from the current vehicle effect implementation in newgrf?
12:29<andythenorth>control over position
12:29<andythenorth>ability to have n effect vehicles
12:29<andythenorth>ability to control stop/start of placement individually for positions 0:n
12:29<andythenorth>imagine a ship with 3 funnels
12:29<@planetmaker>position is (somewhat) implemented
12:29<andythenorth>or a diesel engine with 2 exhausts
12:30<andythenorth>needs z
12:30<@planetmaker>:-) yup
12:30<andythenorth>and possibility of n
12:31<@planetmaker>that actually might rather ask for "type of effect vehicles" and the possibility to define a custom one for specific vehicles
12:31<@planetmaker>e.g. via a separate action0 property which gives the ID of the effect vehicle
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22609 /trunk/src/lang/ (hungarian.txt ukrainian.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: hungarian - 3 changes by IPG
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: ukrainian - 11 changes by Fixer
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13:47<Eddi|zuHause>we should pobably revise our calculated TE values. some don't seem to make sense
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13:48<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. why would the BR 52 and BR 42 have the same TE, when one is quite a bit lighter
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14:06<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Total weight isn't the important value though, it's the friction weight (which is often different with steamers). Wikipedia has a different friction weight for both of them, but steam is special case anyway, as you'd also have to consider the max piston pressure, so the TE could theoretically still be the same.
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, some of the values are probably off
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>i put the 232 (DR 132) into the DBAG-schema for heavy freight, if that's alright
14:09<+michi_cc>mb did that as well, so I guess we can get away with it as well :)
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>well, only after 1990
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>which is the same thing as the 143 (DR 243)
14:11<+michi_cc>The 143 was actually built after 1990 though.
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14:11<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but the 232 is still in heavy use
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>it would be a bad idea to not include it
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14:14<+michi_cc>There's also the DR 250 (155) which has still has relevance as it has six axles and thus a higher TE than the usual Bo'Bo'-type engines.
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>phase out the 151 in 1990, put the 155 in?
14:17<+michi_cc>And 1980-1990 looks very empty compared to before and after. There isn't even a non S-Bahn eletric MU..
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>not really my area of expertise
14:19<+michi_cc>After 1990 we have some more new engines, so we don't necessarily need the 155 for pure DB timeline.
14:21<+michi_cc>The problem with that era is simply that the DB didn't buy new engines and instead continued running a lot of the older junk.
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>the 155 fits neatly in the "every 10 years" plan
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14:31<Eddi|zuHause>we have now 4 engines in 1990, 4 in 1996/97 and 4 in 1999-2001
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>but there's definitely something missing in the 1980's
14:51<+michi_cc>DBSetXL hasn't got anything more either (except the 181, but the stats aren't different and multi-voltage isn't an issue here) besides that mb cheated and introduced the 155 and 232 before 1990, which isn't really an option with a proper DR timeline.
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15:09*Zuu wonders why the English string for STR_ERROR_TRAIN_START_NO_POWER does not use "the train". It says "Train has no power". Shouldn't it say "The train has no power" when speaking about a specific train?
15:09<andythenorth>Doesn't need to
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>sounds weird
15:09<andythenorth>English can easily drop 'The' in that context
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say "this train"
15:10<Zuu>It causes weired translations when people assume that it works fine without the "the" counterpart in Swedish where it really looks very funny.
15:11<Zuu>But if it is okay in English, it can't really be blamed on English :-)
15:11<andythenorth>translation is not 1:1 :)
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15:13<Zuu>Yes, that's why I wondered if it was okay in English to drop the "the" even if a specific train was adressed or if I had missunderstood the usage of the string.
15:13<@Alberth>a specific train would be "that train" imho
15:13<@Alberth>(or "this train")
15:13<andythenorth>could effect vehicles work similar to articulated building instructions?
15:13<andythenorth>loop over n ranges
15:13<@planetmaker>Zuu: that's a translation issue then ;-)
15:13<andythenorth>return FF or invalid to terminate loop
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: effect vehicles probably have a movement counter like normal vehicles
15:14<andythenorth>I mean for a vehicle to specify n effect vehicles
15:14<andythenorth>with positions
15:14<andythenorth>not sure how to control start / stop
15:15<andythenorth>maybe it's not needed
15:15<andythenorth>ideally putting values in a register as part of cb would be easiest for x/y/z
15:15<@Alberth>I would expect creation == start, and destroy == stop
15:16<andythenorth>maybe start/stop is misleading
15:16<andythenorth>I was thinking of offsetting front / rear funnels for example
15:16<andythenorth>but it's not needed
15:16<andythenorth>what is needed is control over smoke threshhold
15:16<andythenorth>e.g. what speeds trigger it
15:16<andythenorth>ships don't show smoke nearly enough
15:16<andythenorth>that's a simple varact 2 check
15:17<andythenorth>so one new cb...
15:18<andythenorth>is a register an acceptable way to specify x/yz/
15:18<andythenorth>the return value of the cb would be an ID of an effect vehicle to use
15:18<andythenorth>effect vehicles are not envisaged as newgrf provided, openttd provisioned only
15:18<andythenorth>but a cb like this would leave the way clear for that in future if madness prevails :)
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>bad idea. if you extend the spec like this, you should allow for newgrf-effect-vehicles as well
15:19<andythenorth>bad why?
15:19<andythenorth>in principle, or because newgrf-effect-vehicles are desirable?
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>a hardcoded ID will bite in your ass once more than one newgrf provides effect vehicles
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>so you'll need a translation-table-like structure
15:21<andythenorth>can't we set a bit for 'original' or translation table?
15:21<@Alberth>spec should allow it imho, openttd may then just implement it partly, and extend later
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>the grf might be able to check whether it has a translation table
15:21<andythenorth>I think newgrf effects are just a step too far
15:21<andythenorth>and impose work
15:22<andythenorth>but ymmv etc
15:22<Zuu>Alberth: Hmm, true. I was more refering to specific/unspecific wording. In Swedish you bend the train-word rather than putting "the" infront.
15:22<Zuu>"that train" would be both "that" + bending the train. Eg. "that the train" :-p
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: we certainly can't tell you how to do a translation into your native language
15:24<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: I know
15:24<@Alberth>Zuu: concepts of different languages are problably never exactly the same, hence you need to slightly adapt the sentence as you translate
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>translating a sentence like this without knowing the context is probably a really bad idea
15:25<Zuu>I was just explaining why I suggested "the" rather than thinking that "that" might be better.
15:26<@Alberth>thanks for the explanation :)
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15:26<Zuu>I think it started a whole avalanche though :-)
15:27<@Alberth>luckily not in the winter :)
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17:55<@Terkhen>good night
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20:08<Verbatim>How's it going?
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---Logclosed Mon Jun 27 00:00:15 2011