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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-06-29

---Logopened Wed Jun 29 00:00:36 2011
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02:45<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:35<andythenorth>morninl
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03:43<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
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04:14<@planetmaker>moin
04:14<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: I rather expected that reaction... as much as I don't understand it.
04:17<@planetmaker>sad to hear
04:17<@planetmaker>but it follows the "line" of not caring about inter-operability
04:19<@planetmaker>are we member of the AEIF? ;-)
04:20<Eddi|zuHause>the what?
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04:32<andythenorth>wtf google?
04:40<@Terkhen>European Association for Railway Interoperability?
04:40<andythenorth>yes, but what's happened to google more importantly?
04:43<@Terkhen>works fine for me
04:43<andythenorth>appearance has changed
04:44<andythenorth>looks like something I'd design :P
04:44<@Terkhen>oh, that
04:44*Terkhen does not like that
04:44<andythenorth>I don't mind it :)
04:44<andythenorth>but it's not the classic google
04:44<@Terkhen>I'm too used to the plain old google page, yes
04:44<@Terkhen>that instant search thing is already annoying enough
04:48<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see anything different about google
04:48<andythenorth>maybe it's region specific
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05:43<andythenorth>hmm
05:43<andythenorth>original TTD depots don't have snow support
05:43<andythenorth>lame
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05:48<andythenorth>hmm
05:48<andythenorth>so I shouldn't draw snow on hot things?
05:49<andythenorth>so no snow on roof of aluminium plant, steel mill, forge, lime kiln, biorefinery, cement plant
05:50<Ammler>andythenorth: realism sucks
05:50<andythenorth>not according to the users
05:50<Ammler>users sucks
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: depends on how good the heat isolation of the roof is
05:52<andythenorth>sounds like realism :P
05:52<andythenorth>how good is the heat isolation of 1 pixel?
05:52<andythenorth>does it depend on the manufacturer of your screen?
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>high :p
05:52<andythenorth>and if you have crt of lcd / tft?
05:52<andythenorth>of / or
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>the best one has a CRT TV. it has lots of snow
05:53<andythenorth>so we need to extend nfo
05:53<andythenorth>cb 17D: check type of users display
05:54<andythenorth>I will need to draw 8 levels of snow, from none-lots
05:54<andythenorth>and display accordingly
05:54<andythenorth>all possible I'm sure
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05:55<andythenorth>Ammler: could you post your helpful 'realism sucks' principle in the FIRS thread? :P
05:56<Ammler>:-)
05:58<Ammler>andythenorth: people just lack of creativity, like with direction of light or wind
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06:43<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: any suggestion then about the track types or do we then just go for your suggested set of tracks - after all DB* sets take longer than DNF to releases ;-)
06:45<Ammler>can't you use nutracks?
06:46<Ammler>ah no, nml
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06:49<+michi_cc>planetmaker: Deciding on track types makes only sense after the whole core engine list is finished (including SBB/ÖBB and whatever else initially should be there) so we know which axle weights make sense.
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06:51<@planetmaker>michi_cc: somewhat. Though I even think it need not be necessarily one track set
06:51<@planetmaker>After all we're going to test for availability of track types anyway ... so it'll be quite compatible
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>the intention of my schema was that one can more easily pick out which of the railtypes to take and which to leave out
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06:54<@planetmaker>yes, exactly
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>we don't need MB's approval at all
06:54<+michi_cc>Looking at the current DB timeline, a usable scheme would be A, B, Be, D, De, De-highspeed. Track type C instead of D would mean introducing highspeed already in 1957, because that's the first engine with >20t axle weight.
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06:55<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: no, of course not. But it would have been nice to at least agree on a tracks
06:55<@planetmaker>because having zillions of nearly identical track type labels is eventually going to defy the purpose of the whole idea
06:55<+michi_cc>If it's only about the labels, Eddi's scheme is totally okay. We can always have a fallback to mb's labels.
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>yep
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>then the only problem is a future dbset wouldn't work with our track set
06:56<@planetmaker>yes, we can. As said, I'm in this context mostly concerned about needless introduction of nearly identical labels. Which makes in needlessly complicated in the future
06:57<@planetmaker>Like stupid trpical wood vs. wood cargo labels
06:57<+michi_cc>The current labels of DBrails only say low axle weight, high axle weight, which is not very specific.
06:57<Ammler>does DB/Germany have narrow gauge?
06:57<@planetmaker>yes
06:57<@planetmaker>OHE for example and the Harzer Schmalspurbahn
06:57<@planetmaker>though they might not exactly be DB
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: in east germany a bit more than in west germany
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>saxony has an extensive 750mm network
06:57<+michi_cc>We could have our track set detect DBSet and then provide the matching labels for compatibility.
06:57<Ammler>we have lots of them and some are connected to city tram lines
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>the Harzquerbahn/Selketalbahn is 1000mm
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>and on Rügen there's also a network, but i'm not sure if it's 1000mm
07:00<Ammler>do you plan to support narrow gauge?
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>no plan yet, but an option
07:02<@planetmaker>IMHO if that's supported, only as an option, not as default.
07:02<@planetmaker>Similar to the epochs / regions
07:03<+michi_cc>Narrow gauge could even be a separate NewGRF, there's no need to put all into a single file.
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>narrow gauge has a problem of justifying its existence in the game. what is the advantage over standard gauge?
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>could do it as tram
07:04<@planetmaker>quite right. It could be completely separate
07:04<@planetmaker>probably even should. Those engines cannot mix anyway
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>CENS - Central European Narrowgauge Set
07:05<+michi_cc>Right now: nothing. But I'm thinking about a) extending the NewGRF curve speed limit control so that narrow gauge can have a higher curve speed limit than default and standard gauge a lower curve speed limit (and highspeed maybe an even lower limit), and b) infrastructure maintenance
07:05<@planetmaker>CNES :-P
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: that only works if curve limits are really low. as narrow gauge doesn't usually have high speed anyway
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>2x45° with 1 diagonal rail: 15km/h, 2x45° with 3 diagonal: 30km/h, and so on
07:10<Ammler>I would wait for roadtypes ;-)
07:13<+michi_cc>Curve limits could be lower IMHO, even a curve with just 1 diagonal rail is already 88 km/h (or even higher per NewGRF control), which e.g. for CETS means that the only prussian engines where curve speeds matter at all are the S engines, everything else is below 88 km/h anyway.
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07:15<+michi_cc>Does anyone know if any of the existing railtype GRFs is using prop 11 (curve speed advantage)?
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>narrow gauge could benefit from being a road/rail hybrid, i.e. being tram in cities (able to run along roads) and being rails outside cities (diagonal rails, etc.)
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>one thing that's especially silly with curve speeds is that they depend on train length
07:17<+michi_cc>Bah, Nutracks does, which doesn't make it easier.
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07:19<Eddi|zuHause>that's always a problem with changing a "grown" spec :)
07:19<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: but you can change that by at least the vehicle properties ("Tilt")
07:20<@planetmaker>and possibly by means of the railtype, too. I haven't looked at that for a bit
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07:21<+michi_cc>Prop 11 right now is quite useless because it is very coarse and doesn't allow decreasing at all. Decreasing is easy, just interpret it as a signed byte, but can still only change it in increments of 50% of the base curve speed.
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07:45<Eddi|zuHause>proposal: set an explicit speed for one of the short curves, and then a linear factor how the longer curves behave in relation to that
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>(linear factor may be fixed-point, e.g. 0x08 => *1.5, 0x10 => *2, 0x18 => *2.5, 0x20 => *3)
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>something's not quite right there yet
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08:01<Moustachio>Huh.
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08:01<MNIM>better.
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08:10<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: That could work. I have to check out the curve speed calculation in OTTD first though, not sure how the speed is done currently.
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>i think i've looked at that code once. was pure magic
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09:30<MNIM>Eddi|zuHause: pure magic as "WOAH WTF AWESOME" or "WTF is happening here?"
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09:32<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: http://www.retrologic.com/jargon/M/magic.html <- meaning 2.
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09:44<andythenorth>meh
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09:49<@planetmaker>muh!
09:49<andythenorth>mah
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>wau
09:49<@planetmaker>miau
09:50<andythenorth>about settings
09:50<andythenorth>I don't like them
09:50<andythenorth>perhaps they could be better
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>combo breaker!
09:51<@planetmaker>andythenorth: just as you wrote: I think we agree on the 'could be better' part ;-)
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09:53<andythenorth>we should do something about it
09:53<andythenorth>I would suggest a 'big change'
09:53<andythenorth>then everyone will all be pissed off at once
09:53<andythenorth>incremental stuff will lead to months of whining
09:53<andythenorth>and the possibility of reverting
09:53<andythenorth>whereas a big change is so big that revert is out of the question
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>i think everybody agrees that "something" needs to be done
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>this is totally not the point. the question is *WHAT* should be done?
10:00<__ln__>what's with the settings?
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>they are unweildy, too many, not very well explained, ...
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10:05<__ln__>oh, that
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10:10<andythenorth>we need to stop talking about settings and stop patching :P
10:11<andythenorth>unrelated - I am working on other apps at the moment. I'd say spec is worth 20% at best, prototyping is worth 80% :P
10:11<andythenorth>planetmaker: do you want to pick up the gui project again?
10:11<andythenorth>most of my newgrfs are stalled due to boredom, or waiting on other stuff....
10:12<andythenorth>FISH is stuck because I'm sick of drawing boats, and DanMacK has lost his love of spriting
10:12<andythenorth>FIRS awaits nml conversion
10:12<andythenorth>HEQS is done
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10:22<MNIM>a bit of both, then, I suppose
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10:31<@planetmaker>andythenorth: in principle yes. But I fear I won't have the time in the next weeks to really get such thing off the ground
10:31<@planetmaker>so not before end of the year from my part, I fear
10:31<andythenorth>:(
10:31<andythenorth>:)
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10:34<lugo>that would have been a nice tread for the bipolar smilie :):
10:34<@planetmaker>before that I guess I should (yet again) rework my gridlines-as-gui-option patch queue ;-)
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10:47<Scuddles>When did DanMacK
10:47*andythenorth assumes there is more question coming
10:47<Scuddles>Sorry, there wasn't D:
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13:43<Wolf01>hello
13:48<andythenorth>hello
13:49<Wolf01>uh, do I ping 5 minutes now?
13:49*andythenorth went to the shop
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13:55<@planetmaker>pong @ Wolf01 ;-)
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13:58<Rubidium>pang! ;)
14:01<supermop__>num pang
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14:54*andythenorth considers replacing FIRS glass works with TTD original printing works
14:56<andythenorth>hmm
14:56<andythenorth>I could repaint the opengfx version
14:56<andythenorth>two birds, one stone
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15:11<supermop>wait, why?
15:14<andythenorth>why?
15:15<andythenorth>why not?
15:16<andythenorth>FIRS glass works does suck a lot
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15:58<andythenorth>planetmaker: interested in a printing works replacement? :)
15:58<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/new_glass_works.png
16:02<Prof_Frink>Smashing.
16:02<andythenorth>ain't done yet ;)
16:02<andythenorth>that one would compress into about 16 colours currently :P
16:04<Ammler>you don't like the ogfx version?
16:04<andythenorth>you want me to answer that honestly, or diplomatically?
16:05<Ammler>not at all, I guess :-P
16:05<andythenorth>it's not nice to criticise other people's art :)
16:06<andythenorth>when my work is criticised, it makes me more sad than it should, if I was being rational
16:06<Ammler>I don't think, you would hurt zyph
16:06<andythenorth>although criticism does make me work harder sometimes
16:06<Ammler>you critism yourself the most :-P
16:07<andythenorth>arp
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16:44<frosch123>night
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16:59<V453000>andythenorth: just dont make FIRS look like opengfx please :)
16:59<andythenorth>ok
16:59<andythenorth>a user request I can happily meet
16:59<andythenorth>;)
16:59<V453000>:P
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17:04<andythenorth>compare & contrast: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/new_glass_works_2.png
17:05<Ammler>andythenorth: V453000 has no clu
17:05<Ammler>don't listen to beer
17:06<XeryusTC2>instead listen to the voice of reason: Ammler!
17:06<V453000>andythenorth: I guess we can agree which one is better :P
17:07<andythenorth>which one? :P
17:07<Ammler>ah, say hi to most used highlight :-P
17:07<V453000>the not-opengfx one of course :P
17:07<andythenorth>are you sure that's not beer talking?
17:07<V453000>quite
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17:08<Ammler>he can't talk without
17:10*andythenorth is not going to repaint whole of opengfx :P
17:12<Ammler>your sprites are too good for ogfx
17:13<Ammler>then we couldn't have those nice talks anymore, which base graphics are nicer :-)
17:15<andythenorth>hmm
17:15<andythenorth>I could probably redraw some part of opengfx
17:20<andythenorth>how do I get latest opengfx?
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17:27<andythenorth>opengfx isn't on bananas?
17:27<Ammler>andythenorth: as the master of the devzone, you do not really ask that?
17:27<andythenorth>I can compile the checkout I have
17:27<andythenorth>I just wondered how other people would get it
17:27<Ammler>it is also on bananas
17:28<Ammler>or as distro package on linux or via windows installer
17:28<Ammler>just osx user have troubles
17:28<andythenorth>ok I find it
17:28<andythenorth>I was looking in wrong bananas
17:28<Ammler>yeah, it isn't a newgrf :-P
17:37<andythenorth>oops :m
17:39<andythenorth>night
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17:58<@Terkhen>good night
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18:10<lord-carlos>Hi
18:10<lord-carlos>how can i connect two towns by bus?
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18:11<lord-carlos>It wont let me do it the way it works with two busstations in the same town
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18:17<lord-carlos>mhh, i think it's just too much apart?
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18:19<Ammler>lord-carlos: you play yacd?
18:19<lord-carlos>what is yacd?
18:20<lord-carlos>just installed openTTD today
18:22<lord-carlos>man i suck at this game
18:25<lord-carlos>i build another station, busfrom town to town works now
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20:11<lord-carlos>uff, those light signals are hard to understand
20:20<Eddi|zuHause>red = stop, green = go
20:20<Eddi|zuHause>not difficult at all :p
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22:25<H-land>Some signals confuse me, but others really don't... What I really ought to ask, though.
22:26<H-land>Using FIRS, I can't seem to get oil rigs or fisheries to grow like I can most land based wossnames. Is there something I should be doing?
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22:58<HelloNickname>hi, I've read on a forum that trains are not getting full but I am getting very bad load in some of my trains, is there a way to improve this
23:04-!-PLPLPLPL [~PL@modemcable124.233-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd
23:04<PLPLPLPL>sorry, I had a bad irc client, repeating myself: hi, I've read on a forum that trains are not getting full but I am getting very bad load in some of my trains, is there a way to improve this
23:08<H-land>I don't understand what you're trying to say.
23:08<H-land>Do you mean that you're concerned that your trains aren't making (enough) money because they're leaving before they're full?
23:19<PLPLPLPL>yes
23:19<PLPLPLPL>they don't get filled by the nearby industry
23:19<PLPLPLPL>let say when I built it I had four cars for coal
23:20<PLPLPLPL>they were getting full now they are about half-full
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23:25<PLPLPLPLPL>H-land u there ?
23:26<H-land>Yes, but I wasn't looking here. Sorry.
23:26<H-land>Do you have it ordered to wait for a full load?
23:29<PLPLPLPLPL>no
23:29<PLPLPLPLPL>should I
23:30<H-land>Yes. Otherwise, they'll just take whatever's lying around when they're at the station and leave.
23:30<H-land>It's not what I'd advise using for passenger trains, but for freight like coal, yes.
23:31<PLPLPLPLPL>another thing
23:31<PLPLPLPLPL>I had one station forking into two different path
23:31<PLPLPLPLPL>on the same exit of that station
23:31<PLPLPLPLPL>because of mutually exclusivity of two trains going in two different direction, it was working fine
23:32<H-land>I might need to see a screenshot here; I'm not understanding the spacial relationship here.
23:32<PLPLPLPLPL>sure
23:32<PLPLPLPLPL>well
23:32<PLPLPLPLPL>that's fine
23:32<PLPLPLPLPL>I'll keep on practicing with the lights before
23:32<PLPLPLPLPL>thanks for your support
23:33<H-land>Mmhmm.
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---Logclosed Thu Jun 30 00:00:36 2011