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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-07-01

---Logopened Fri Jul 01 00:00:37 2011
00:24<caracal>"autorenew failed (money limit)" ... wha?! i have more than enough money
00:24<caracal>maybe not enough to renew all vehicles of that type at the same time, but that's not what i'm trying (well, wanting) to do
00:26<caracal>what i've seen in the past is that it replaces a vehicle whenever it hits a depot ... and i certainly have more than enough for *that*
00:26<caracal>but i'm getting this endless stream of the above messages
00:26<caracal>that seems a bit cross-eyed to me
00:29<caracal>and another thing ... ;) i have a truck station in a growing city, and every other month or so i get a message saying "now accepts goods", followed by "no longer accepts goods" ... back and forth, over and over
00:29<caracal>any way i can affect that process aside from just growing the city faster?
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01:34<@planetmaker>caracal: yes, trams are not roads, thus have their own depot
01:34<caracal>i eventually discovered that
01:35<@planetmaker>and no, there's no way to change these messages except turning this type of messages
01:35<caracal>actually, you can just stop replacing vehicles until you have more money
01:35<@planetmaker>and I discovered that 3h of sleep are not enough, good morning nevertheless ;-)
01:35<caracal>oh, you mean the accepting goods messages
01:35<@planetmaker>I meant both ;-)
01:36<@planetmaker>two separate statements with no connection
01:36<caracal>well, the money limit messages (1) are indeed due to not having enough to replace the entire fleet at once, even though that's not what it actually does, and (2) can be stopped by stopping the replacement, or getting more money
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02:04<@Terkhen>good morning
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07:08<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes i really have no clue what xkcd is saying...
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07:17<lugo>Eddi|zuHause, bet you know it, but:
07:18<lugo>he ceased updating :/
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07:27<Sacro>make isntall
07:27<Sacro>this isn't a terminal
07:30<Prof_Frink>Yes it is.
07:32<@peter1138>that's a _woody_ word
07:32<@peter1138>what's gorn dear?
07:33<__ln__>a word with woody quality
07:35<@peter1138>we're mangling this :S
07:37<__ln__>well i wasn't expecting the kind of spanish inquisition
07:37<MNIM>nobody expects the spanish inquisition!
07:38*MNIM disappears again
07:45<andythenorth>I was expecting that
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>i guess the only english word that i _really_ hate is the word "I" (being capitalised"
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>it's so silly, it a) goes against all sane spelling rules, and b) you can't emphasise it by capitalising it
07:57*Terkhen hates it too
07:59<MNIM>not to mention that it kindof symbolizes a bad kind of egotism
08:01<@Terkhen>I, you
08:01<@Terkhen>We Should Capitalize All Words To Avoid That
08:02*Prof_Frink hits Terkhen with a germanhammer
08:02<@Terkhen>what does that do?
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>when making forum posts i often have to correct capitalisation afterwards...
08:04<MNIM>Terkhen: exactly that. German is a silly language, requiring all Nouns to be capitalized
08:04<@Terkhen>oh, really? I did not know that
08:04<@Terkhen>sounds annoying :)
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>it's totally great
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>improves reading flow significantly
08:05<@Terkhen>hmmm... annoying for writing :P
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>its widespread use goes back to Martin Luther, who used it it his bible translation
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08:06<Eddi|zuHause>(which was basically the first really widespread book)
08:09<MNIM>now you know why all writers hate lutherans :P
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08:10<MNIM>fucking capitalization
08:11<Ammler>hmm, it is good, you can't captialize I
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>Capitalising all Nouns is a great Way to introduce Structure into a Sentence.
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>Especially with the way that Germans like to construct very long Sentences.
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>bäh, missed one ;)
08:13<@Terkhen>I guess it requires getting used to it, those sentences just confuse me :P
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08:45<Eddi|zuHause>of course, every change of style needs getting used to
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08:50<@peter1138>yeah, it's illogical :p
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11:17<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: "Aber wenn dir der "Diese HTML-Seiten als .zip runterladen" Link auf der Hauptseite nicht ausreicht" <- did i miss something?
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: second paragraph on this page:
11:19<frosch123>oh, you mean on the old wiki
11:19<frosch123>but, wasn't the point of the question that there is no such thing on the new one?
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>no, he said he liked the old one better.
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>but a similar link on the new wiki would probably be a good idea
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure there's a way to export a wiki like this.
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>i mean other than "wget -m"
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11:50<frosch123>or was he on vacation or something?
11:56<Sacro>orudge is in australia
11:57<frosch123>ah, i read a book these days, which is not about australia
11:58<frosch123>("the last continent")
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12:50<andythenorth>FIRS supplies mechanic :P
12:51<andythenorth>'on average, over enough months it will be ok' just doesn't work for humans
12:52<andythenorth>situations akin to law of large numbers are just not intuitive
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12:52<andythenorth>people would rather have a more complicated system, with much more complex rules and the need to do actual maths
12:52<supermop_plus>sounds ok
12:52<andythenorth>thereby doing micro-management to avoid micro-management
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think it should be progressive (supply demand per month will increase with every production increase), and storage for up to 12 months
12:53*Terkhen does not understand
12:53*andythenorth considers reintroducing stockpiling
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>stockpiling only for supplies, not any other cargos
12:53<supermop_plus>but then i dont get to have tiny little trucks
12:53<andythenorth>it's basically a choice of which kind of player request I want more of:
12:54<andythenorth>(1) please disable stockpiling, stockpiling SUCKS, it breaks my networks, I would use your set if it didn't have stockpiling
12:54<andythenorth>(2) please introduce stockpiling, this absence of stockpiling SUCKS, it makes no sense to me, I would use your set if it had stockpiling
12:55*Terkhen belongs to (1), although I wouldn't mind stockpiling for supplies
12:55<andythenorth>suggests that supplies are just a flawed concept
12:55<andythenorth>good things are easy
12:55*andythenorth considers removing supplies
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>supplies are a great concept
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>it makes the essence of the set
12:56<supermop_plus>yeah, so far the best way to model an idea
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>without supplies, one may as well just play with the default set
12:56<andythenorth>but you get the prettier graphics :P
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>you have the default graphics for all the essential industries anyway...
12:57<supermop_plus>ok, i was on the phone: but here is why i like supplies:
12:58<supermop_plus>the type of industries called 'primary' in the game have a sort of weird way of operation,
12:59<supermop_plus>where production ramps up continuously to very large amounts based solely on how often/well some company shows up at their door to pick stuff up
13:00<supermop_plus>not really in response to any demand in the regional economy, or due to any factors about ease or difficulty of operating the farm/mine etc
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13:02<supermop_plus>it would be more interesting if different industries could fluctuate based on how economical it is to operate them, or based on their location in the region
13:03<supermop_plus>but these are too complicated to model in a fun way in the game (thusfar)
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>you're missing a part here: good raw material sources are very often in very inaccessible places (e.g. mountains)
13:04<supermop_plus>supplies stand in for the various ssituations needed to support a high level of productivity,
13:05<supermop_plus>indeed, eddi, so those good supplies are left un-tapped in early industrial societies, but become more lucrative as the industrial infrastructure to support their use grows, and convenient supplies fall off.
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13:06<andythenorth>the game isn't very good at modelling that kind of detail in gameplay though :)
13:06<andythenorth>it kind of gets lost
13:06<supermop_plus>a system that can deliver supplies regularly stand in for all of the other industrial concerns we don't model
13:07<supermop_plus>ie, how is this factory/mine/whatever powered, how do its workers get there, etc
13:07<andythenorth>"I know that most people hate the stockpiling feature, maybe it can even done without it, but it would ensure that the industry have to be served with supplies on a regular base, not just used as dump."
13:07<andythenorth>^ how is this different to current ?
13:08<andythenorth>same for this "to reach the highest value you might have to deliver the right amount just on time (kind of a quest once you got the complete chain running)"
13:08<supermop_plus>hmm, same as now but no payment beyond the first crate per month? sounds worse than stockpiling
13:08<@Terkhen>stockpile up to X supplies and consume Y every month, Y and X are based on current production
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13:10<andythenorth>stockpiling was tried :(
13:10<andythenorth>and widely disliked :|
13:10<@Terkhen>for supplies?
13:10*andythenorth will do something else
13:12<@Terkhen>oh, that should have been before I tried FIRS
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13:18<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly convinced that stockpiles for supplies are the right solution
13:19<andythenorth>why go against empiricism?
13:19<andythenorth>they may be theoretically correct, but they're tested and proven wrong
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what i found annoying is that i can't get any statistics of how well i supplied an industry with supplies over the past ~12 months
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13:22<Eddi|zuHause>and while there: secondary industrie shouldn't tell you how much primary cargo they currently store (that's 0 most of the time), but how much was delivered this/last month accumulated
13:27<supermop_plus>yeah, I would like that information available
13:27<andythenorth>patchy patchy
13:30<supermop_plus>in british english, is a colliery just another word for coal mine? or is it a specific type of coal mine?
13:31<andythenorth>about the same I'd say
13:31<andythenorth>a coal mine can be a drift or open pit though
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>never heard that word
13:31<andythenorth>a colliery is a deep mine with usually two vertical shafts
13:31*andythenorth -> bbl
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13:33<supermop_plus>ive only ever heard it used in england
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>in german the word "Zeche" might be used to describe a (coal) mine
13:36<frosch123>though the plural of it can also be used as verb
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>"Zeche" may also mean a bill (e.g. in a restaurant)
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>"Zeche prellen" means leaving without paying
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22613 /trunk/src/lang/simplified_chinese.txt:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 1 changes by Gavin
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13:47<lukaszpl>hello. is that any chance to play ottd on applce mac?
13:48-!-lukaszpl [] has quit []
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>apparently not
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>especially not for impatient people
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13:56*DanMacK leaves the shadows and enters the light
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13:58<Eddi|zuHause>waah, it's so bright
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14:00<andythenorth>ah ha
14:00<andythenorth>DanMacK is revealed
14:00*andythenorth wonders what projects DanMacK has been doing?
14:00<andythenorth>websites about inter-urbans?
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14:04<DanMacK>Yeah... still digging for that
14:04<DanMacK>Distracted by records online
14:04<andythenorth>how is your spriting mojo? I feared for it
14:06<DanMacK>trying to find it...
14:07<DanMacK>I';ve got some Canset stuff to finish, other stuff to finish... Finnish stuff to finish...
14:08<andythenorth>do you have any kind of todo list or tickets?
14:08<andythenorth>or do you keep it in your head?
14:10<DanMacK>bit of both
14:10<DanMacK>I've got a todo list for the Canset
14:12<andythenorth>I find it really unhelpful keeping stuff in my head
14:12<andythenorth>it's like mental freight
14:12<andythenorth>stops me getting anything done
14:17<DanMacK>I've gone through lulls before, it's nothing new
14:17<DanMacK>When you've been doing this for 8 and a half years, you need a break :P
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14:30<@planetmaker>andythenorth: that's probably why V suggested the increased monthly need for supplies for industries. Which might mean a stockpile... might work for supplies if it doesn't change acceptance
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14:31<@planetmaker>hm... scrolling down helps to not answer totally out of context :-P
14:32<andythenorth>the correct answer is to remove them
14:32<andythenorth>but that won't be popular
14:33<supermop>what if
14:33<supermop>instead of a traditional stockpile
14:33<supermop>suplies went bad
14:33<supermop>as a way to deter dropping off 10 years worth at once
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14:37<supermop>so you can drop off as many as you want, but they will have a shelf life, and the industry only benefits from those supplies that it can process before they spoil
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14:43<andythenorth>could be done by reducing the stockpile, but not using them for increased production
14:43<andythenorth>but it would be very hard to explain + possibly hard to code (might be easy)
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14:55<andythenorth>maybe I remove them for 0.7.0 and play test
14:57<andythenorth>canset style
14:57<andythenorth>unlimited stockpile
14:57<@planetmaker>if stockpile: unlimited
14:57<andythenorth>industry consumes at n per month - related to production
14:58<andythenorth>random monthly chance that all stockpiled supplies were 'lost' :P
14:58<andythenorth>still breaks with YACD though
14:58<Rubidium>unlimited stockpiles don't exist
14:58<andythenorth>65k or so
14:58<andythenorth>so what happens if it overflows?
14:59<@Terkhen>the bugged power plant in opengfx+ industries had 65k, yes
14:59<Rubidium>andythenorth: it doesn't
14:59<andythenorth>sign overflow? or just limited
14:59<@Terkhen>it stops accepting
14:59<Rubidium>the industry just doesn't accept it
14:59<andythenorth>so I wouldn't need to write acceptance code myself
14:59<andythenorth>does tile acceptance remain?
14:59<andythenorth>you get paid?
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14:59<Rubidium>although if you're devious, you use the 64 bytes of the industry to store the stockpile
14:59<Rubidium>@calc 2**64
14:59<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 18446744073709551616
15:00<Rubidium>@calc 2**(64*8)
15:00<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 13407807929942597099574024998205846127479365820592393377723561443721764030073546976801874298166903427690031858186486050853753882811946569946433649006084096
15:00<andythenorth>I'd probably use persistent storage for it - it's not 'cargo waiting to be processed'
15:00<andythenorth>I'd like to be able to turn that string off :P
15:00<Rubidium>that looks like a reasonable approximation for unlimited in the scope of OpenTTD cargo
15:01<andythenorth>no, it's not enough
15:01<andythenorth>I demand a patch :P
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15:01<andythenorth>industry then uses the cargo at what rate?
15:01<andythenorth>depends on output?
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15:03*andythenorth has no good suggestions
15:03<andythenorth>makes it harder to code :P
15:03<andythenorth>someone write a spec?
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15:04<@Alberth>a spec
15:04<andythenorth>I'll code that
15:05<@Alberth>what's wrong with stockpiling upto eg 64K, and throwing away everything more than that?
15:05<andythenorth>but what to do with the stockpile?
15:05<andythenorth>consumption should be related to production
15:05<@Alberth>use it at the current rate
15:05<andythenorth>1t per month?
15:07<andythenorth>if starting output is (for argument) 1
15:07<andythenorth>and industry output is currently 4
15:07<@Alberth>in my view, the problem is that people need to do precise timing of small amounts, right? a stockpile fixes that problem
15:07*Alberth has no experience with supplies at all
15:08*andythenorth has brain-boggle
15:08<andythenorth>consumption of supplies needs to be related to current output
15:08<andythenorth>and production increase chance needs to be related to amount delivered
15:08<andythenorth>so I deliver 500t, to an industry at level 1 production, I get instant upgrade to maximum production?
15:09<andythenorth>or just to next level
15:09<andythenorth>it makes no sense to me so far
15:09<@Alberth>you have several production levels?
15:09<andythenorth>yes, driven by the production multiplier
15:09<andythenorth>maybe when FIRS is nml someone else will fix it
15:10<andythenorth>I regret the whole idea :P
15:11<andythenorth>not FIRS
15:11<andythenorth>just supplies
15:12<andythenorth>they were invented for the wrong reason
15:13<andythenorth>to give a purpose to a small HEQS vehicle which hasn't actually been included in HEQS :P
15:13<@Alberth>that sounds a bit useless indeed :)
15:13<@Terkhen>even if they were created for the wrong reason, they are still fun :)
15:13<@Alberth>but we need rivers for that vehicle :p
15:14<@Alberth>what is wrong with assuming they got delivered when you have a stockpile of it?
15:15<@Alberth>hmm, you can make the 64K or the time it lasts, configurable.
15:15<andythenorth>you have to choose a rate to consume it
15:15<andythenorth>I don't know how to make that decision :)
15:15<andythenorth>you have to choose the affect it has on production
15:16<andythenorth>I don't know how to make that decision either
15:16<@Alberth>1t for each tonne produced?
15:16<andythenorth>but those are the two key problems
15:17<andythenorth>and for each 1t consumed, what is the chance of production increase?
15:18<@Alberth>hmm, this is getting complicated indeed
15:18<andythenorth>or to put it another way
15:18<andythenorth>the industry is producing 128t coal
15:18<@Alberth>Terkhen: so why is it fun?
15:18<andythenorth>I have 500t stockpiled
15:18<andythenorth>should I (a) use 128t supplies for a fixed chance of increase
15:18<andythenorth>or (b) use 500t for an enhanced chance of increase
15:18<andythenorth>or (c) go north
15:18*Alberth votes (a)
15:19<@Terkhen>creating a network that gives a small amount of supplies to each primary is fun, I'm not sure if the same would hold with increased supply requirements
15:19<blup>idk what you all are talking about but I'd go for [c] :P
15:19<@Terkhen>and those are huge amounts of supplies
15:19<@Alberth>blup: the concept of supplies in FIRS, and what to do with them
15:19<andythenorth>(a) contravenes the player request for 'more supplies delivered => more chance of increase'
15:20*Terkhen has an overcomplicated scheme in mind
15:20<andythenorth>(b) contravenes player request for 'please provide a stockpile so I can deliver less often'
15:20<andythenorth>(c) is easiest
15:20<andythenorth>at least with (c) I get the same class of feature requests pikka gets
15:21<@Terkhen>I have no clue of what (c) is
15:21<andythenorth>do nothing
15:21<@Alberth>and stock-piling kills the fun described by Terkhen
15:21<blup>that's somewhat the same thing as ECS vectors ?
15:22<@Alberth>blup: FIRS is another industry set, yes
15:22<@Alberth>however, it does not stockpile, nor are there acceptance limits
15:22<@Alberth>which makes it a whole lot more fun to play imho
15:22<@Terkhen>I'd say (c) for now :P
15:24<andythenorth>it's looking that way
15:24<@Alberth>the only alternative would be to make it configurable
15:24<andythenorth>that would suck
15:24<andythenorth>it means duplicating the production code at least once
15:24<@Alberth>quite likely
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15:24<andythenorth>increases testing workload by power of 2 for each parameter option
15:24<andythenorth>makes game balance almost impossibly complex
15:25<andythenorth>but ecs does it :)
15:25<@Alberth>people cannot complain about stockpiling anymore <-- would be the major benefit, I think
15:26<@Alberth>but I don't know whether it is worth the mess
15:26<@Alberth>looking for an alternative might be time spent better
15:27<andythenorth>removing it is second least amount of work
15:27<andythenorth>and feature requests can be handled with "it was tried and didn't work"
15:27<@Alberth>ecs is not moving so rapidly, which eases the load
15:28<@Alberth>how would it change compared to not caring about supplies, like I do ?
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15:29<@Alberth>ie leave them in, but consider them deprecaeted
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15:34<andythenorth>removing them would have lots of benefits
15:35*DanMacK never really used them TBH
15:35<DanMacK>I tried
15:35<andythenorth>would free up two cargo slots
15:37<andythenorth>and remove four industries
15:37<andythenorth>so would make for easier gameplay
15:40<andythenorth>I can also remove lots of strings
15:40<andythenorth>and remove the need for instructions
15:40<andythenorth>primary cargo production would be same as default game
15:40<andythenorth>translation would be simplified
15:42<andythenorth>could the supplies be moved to a separate vector grf?
15:43<@Terkhen>that extra grf would need to redefine industry tiles though
15:43<andythenorth>that's possible I think
15:44<@Terkhen>yes, just tiresome :P
15:44<andythenorth>that way players could code their own supplies behaviour
15:44<andythenorth>to suit their taste
15:46<@Terkhen>makes sense, but I feel that then FIRS loses part of what makes it unique
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15:48<andythenorth>reminds me of a duck-shoot game (where ducks go off one side of screen and reappear on other)
15:48<JVassie>reminds me of binary
15:55<andythenorth>maybe beer will help the supplies question
15:55<Chris_Booth>mmm beer!
15:55<Chris_Booth>not replyed to a beer highlight in ages lol
15:56<Chris_Booth>sorry that was a very bad off topic
15:57<supermop>replace supplies cargoes with beer cargo?
15:57<JVassie>51 windows updates to install
15:57<supermop>deliver beer each month to reduce production?
15:58<andythenorth>that is one of the funnier suggestions :)
15:58<andythenorth>I can't figure it out
15:59<Chris_Booth>to late I wont the Beer war here
15:59<andythenorth>so it needs storage stockpile + refusal of acceptance + variable consumption according to production
15:59<andythenorth>+ failure to deliver on time = production drops
15:59<andythenorth>I can't see how all that fits together
16:00*JVassie is having a love affair with Calvin Harriw
16:00<JVassie>true story
16:00<andythenorth>storage => no need to deliver on time
16:00<andythenorth>acceptance refusal => punishment for over-delivering
16:01<andythenorth>production drop => punishment for not delivering on time
16:01<andythenorth>+ variable consumption by production => varying demand
16:01<andythenorth>these don't seem to fit together somehow
16:01<andythenorth>so to put it into plain english for instructions
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16:04<andythenorth>"to increase production at FIRS primaries, deliver the required amount of cargo every month. If you miss a month, but you over-delivered in previous months, the industry will use supplies from the stockpile. But if you over-deliver too much the supplies won't be accepted. If you fail to provide supplies, production will fall. The amount of supplies required depends on current production. Current production depe
16:04<andythenorth>the amount of supplies delivered."
16:04<andythenorth>so what do supplies do
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16:06*andythenorth will do something more useful
16:06<andythenorth>good night
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16:38<Eddi|zuHause>andy is ever so impatient...
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17:24<@Terkhen>good night
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---Logclosed Sat Jul 02 00:00:40 2011