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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-07-03

---Logopened Sun Jul 03 00:00:42 2011
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02:08<andythenorth>Rubidium: today is a good day for drawing rivers
02:09<andythenorth>what's needed?
02:34<@planetmaker>andythenorth: basically a version fitting the TTD style. OpenGFX has rivers with shores in its extra grf... see sprites/png/waterfeatures.png sprites/nfo/extra/extra-plus-waterfeatures.pnfo
02:34<@planetmaker>moin also :-)
02:36<@planetmaker>basically it needs all those shore sprites
02:36<@planetmaker>river shores that is
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02:56<@Terkhen>good morning
02:57<@planetmaker>hi Terkhen
03:06<Rubidium>andythenorth: and the river slopes, i.e. the rocky rapids
03:07<andythenorth>so all shores? looks like sprites 245-1002 in the opengfx sheet
03:08<andythenorth>this is not a 5 min. job :)
03:08<andythenorth>and all rapids looks like sprites 147-240
03:10<andythenorth>how many are actually used?
03:10<andythenorth>there looks to be more sprites than would be sane for building rivers with
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03:16<andythenorth>some of those sprites are shores
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03:23<andythenorth>Rubidium: is it known which sprites are actually needed? (using the numbers in the opengfx sprite sheet)
03:23<andythenorth>(for temperate - the rest I *can* figure out )
03:25<andythenorth>or can I patch to use the opengfx versions with ttd base set? That would help me understand what's used where
03:30<blup>cross compiling to win32 from linux amd64, im getting heightmap.o:heightmap.cpp:(.text+0x691): undefined reference to `_png_set_longjmp_fn'
03:30<blup>any idea ?
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03:35<Rubidium>andythenorth: you can "patch" it. Just replace the 5 base graphics files from opengfx.obg with the graphic files from orig_win.obg (or dos or dos_de)
03:37<Rubidium>I think opengfx has more sprites than needed as it randomises them, but I don't know how much
03:38<Rubidium>the specs says 4 for the slopes and 12*5 for the edges
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03:39<@Terkhen>blup: missing libpng?
03:40<blup>I little to easy
03:41<blup>nah .. I had 1.5.2 ... got a freaking bunch of errors .. realized that ... compiled 1.2.44 .. got only errors about that function
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03:57<@planetmaker>just curious, are you the guy with the window-below-cursor patch, blup ?
04:00<@planetmaker>andythenorth: there's an easy way to test your sprites:
04:01<@planetmaker>there exists the (obsolete) OpenGFX NewWaterFeatures grf
04:02<@planetmaker>which is now part of OpenGFX itself. But for testing those sprites in TTD style it might be easy to just work on that... replacing sprites therein
04:03<andythenorth>is there a source project for that? nvm if not
04:03<@planetmaker>I have a gimp file where I already replaced all the water
04:03<andythenorth>I can decompile + recompile
04:03<@planetmaker>there's no other source
04:03<@planetmaker>just the gimp file where I started working on this very thing
04:03<@planetmaker>even some terrain is already replaced...
04:03<@planetmaker>do you want to have that - if so, which file format?
04:06<@planetmaker>^ anyhow. Current state of affairs
04:06<@planetmaker>could possibly save some (double) work
04:06<andythenorth>so mostly just shores needed :)
04:06<andythenorth>that's much better
04:06<@planetmaker>yes. Which also is easy, if you don't want a colour change of the normal terrain near the water
04:07<@planetmaker>Which would be very desirable, though
04:07<@planetmaker>And which is the artistically most challanging part of this endeavour
04:07<blup>planetmaker, yep
04:08<@planetmaker> <-- andythenorth no double work needed there either :-P
04:09<@planetmaker>blup: I noticed that some functions miss a @param or @return doxygen and there are two or three cases still where there's "else \n {" instead of "else {\n"
04:10<@planetmaker>+int WindowPopup::WpuGetModifierX() const <-- that and the following 3 in the diff
04:10<@planetmaker>miss the @return or @param respectively
04:11<@planetmaker>+ }
04:11<@planetmaker>+ else this->type = WPUT_ORIGIN;
04:11<@planetmaker>^^ I'd write it as } else {\n ... \n }
04:11<@planetmaker>and + else if (this->type == WPUT_CENTERED)
04:12<blup>adjusting it
04:12<@planetmaker>and really... don't worry about patches for 1.1.x. ;-)
04:13<@planetmaker>a modified release is not the release and it won't be compatible anyway... at least not straight forward
04:13<@planetmaker>people who like patches sh/could just as well use trunk
04:15<@planetmaker>though with these gui-only mods it might work without much difficulty indeed
04:18<blup>playing with them .. that's why I provide them .. but yeah .. I don't think anybody will use the 1.1 patches
04:19<@planetmaker>people will use them ;-)
04:20<@planetmaker>I was just "worried" that you do unnecessary extra work. If you play yourself with it... :-) that's something else
04:21<andythenorth>planetmaker: colour change of normal terrain?
04:22<@planetmaker>andythenorth: if you look at how rivers work in OpenGFX, it's not just water layed on the normal terrain tiles, but the rivers have a shore where the colours of the ground are slightly different.
04:22<@planetmaker>Similar to the sea shores where there are also sandy pixels
04:22<andythenorth>yes that makes sense
04:22<@planetmaker>thus the pixels adjacent to the water for rivers are "muddy"
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04:23<@planetmaker>just copy-pasting the terrain tiles there... that's as easy that even I can do that :-P
04:24<@planetmaker>but I hadn't found a good way to make the river shore muddy...
04:24<@planetmaker>at least not in a time-efficient way which means to not redraw everything ;-)
04:26<@planetmaker>you may have some routines which auto-add some shading... dunno
04:26<andythenorth>the grf is OpenGFX - New Water Features v0.1
04:26<@planetmaker>something like that, yes
04:26<@planetmaker>it's from a time when there was no OpenGFX yet
04:26<andythenorth>the current shores look 90% correct with ttd graphics
04:27<@planetmaker>he :-D
04:27<@planetmaker>I might have changed in the png I linked some terrain graphics already, probably for temperate
04:27<@planetmaker>dunno exactly anymore
04:27<blup>actually .. I play with sloppily coded versions .. I put extra work so they comply with your standards. but creating a patch for trunk, turning it to 1.1 doesn't require much work ... for the features I'm implementing
04:28<andythenorth>to get a perfect fit with ttd graphics, there is work needed
04:28<andythenorth>but it's not too bad already
04:28<andythenorth>as quality problems go, we've had bigger issues I'm sure
04:28<andythenorth>the coast tiles are screwed though :)
04:29<@planetmaker>andythenorth: yes... they're the old opengfx coasts
04:29<@planetmaker>even opengfx will need an probably still needs :-O
04:29<andythenorth>I know how to draw ttd-style coasts
04:29<andythenorth>I'm going out shortly for a few hours, but might be able to work on this later today
04:29<@planetmaker>I'd just copy&paste the TTD coasts there with the proper mask
04:29<@planetmaker>and then add river coasts
04:29<andythenorth>if the grf is fixed, what happens next?
04:30<@planetmaker>that's be a step to be motivation to work on river generation as far as I understood ;-)
04:31<andythenorth>if that's the only blocker...current grf is pretty good :P
04:31<@planetmaker>i.e. without sprites there's no point
04:31<andythenorth>I'll see what I can do later ;)
04:31<@planetmaker>it could then be canibalized to include them in an action5 block in openttd.grf
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04:41<blup>I wasn't thinking the @param and @return where required after the obviousness of the functions' name :P
04:45<@Alberth>if it is simple, then adding them is also not much work
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05:05<blup>well .. it's posted .. I hope it is fully compliant. Good night/day guys
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06:31<@planetmaker>hm... so basically rivers and canals at height 0 in conjunction with sea water result in funny coasts:
06:32<@planetmaker>or can do so
06:40<__ln__>there's a local gravitational anomaly in that world
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06:59<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22626 /trunk/src/ (openttd.cpp settings_internal.h settings_type.h): -Fix [FS#4622]: Also initialise _old_vds with newgame settings; TTD savegames do not contain these settings.
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07:17<andythenorth>Alberth: would it help to reduce scope of a script framework?
07:18<andythenorth>to maybe industries, houses, towns?
07:18<andythenorth>getting a 100% generic framework for everything is probably torture
07:20<@Alberth>i don't know, I cannot really imagine contents of a script
07:21<andythenorth>I can imagine certain things, like handling cbs from game loop (build industry etc)
07:21<andythenorth>I can't imagine how to write something that provides ongoing gameplay
07:22<andythenorth>e.g. open specific industry at town xyz
07:22<@Alberth>but if you remove X from newgrf, you either drop support, move it to game code, or to the script
07:22<andythenorth>allow town pdq to grow
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07:22<andythenorth>I can imagine a scripted scenario
07:22<@Alberth>I can too :)
07:23<@Alberth>but you cannot even make a customizable one atm :p
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07:34<andythenorth>a scripted scenario is one thing - you can refer to named towns + other things
07:34<andythenorth>but a script that tries to control game style without reference to specifics is hard to envisage
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07:36<@Alberth>why, you now also have code that handles production speed and closedown without referring to specifics, or not?
07:37<andythenorth>by reference to things like town types it is possible to be more generic
07:37<andythenorth>if a script can make use of private storage
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07:38<andythenorth>it could declare that n towns are industrial, p towns are suburban, q towns are agricultural etc
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07:53<andythenorth>planetmaker: I think you have fixed temperate coasts in the water features png
07:53<@planetmaker>yes, so do I
07:54<@planetmaker>but without proper river shore
07:54<@planetmaker>just copy&pasted temperate tiles onto it
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07:56<andythenorth>any idea why there is blue snow and white snow in that png?
07:57<andythenorth>maybe my mistake
07:57<andythenorth>why not revert the change I made?
07:57<andythenorth>oops wrong channel :P
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08:00*andythenorth has to remember how to use grfcodec and such
08:00<andythenorth>that's old
08:00<@Alberth>grfcodec -h
08:02<andythenorth>how do I build sea in scenario editor?
08:05<andythenorth>planetmaker: you fixed the coast graphics in temperate, but they're not in the grf :P
08:09<@planetmaker>of course not
08:09<@planetmaker>the grf is - as I wrote - an antique newgrf
08:10<@planetmaker>the png I linked is a png only existing on my hard disk waiting for further work
08:10<andythenorth>I'm thinking of setting up a repo + build environment for it
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08:10<andythenorth>I know it sounds overkill
08:10<@planetmaker>quite ;-)
08:10<andythenorth>but there's 6 hours of typing 'grfcodec foo' and then 'cp foo'
08:10<@planetmaker>well... locally... maybe :-)
08:10<andythenorth>plus I don't like working without vcs
08:11<@planetmaker>that's what I'd do, too
08:11<andythenorth>plus the layout of that png makes my head hurt
08:11<andythenorth>another case for splitting a big png :P
08:11<andythenorth>I really don't want to look at it
08:11<@planetmaker>well... same as with industry_misc.png for me :-P
08:11<andythenorth>each climate should have a separate png
08:12<andythenorth>trying to figure out which exact slope is which meh
08:12<andythenorth>they all look the same :)
08:15<caracal>setting up git locally, and then using it, is about as easy as a vc system gets ... i do it all the time for the most trivial things, and have been glad of it several times already
08:17<Ammler>just replace the example grf
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08:39<@Alberth>git just has some insane defaults :p
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09:01<caracal>insane? i've never noticed any
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09:01<caracal>it's seemed very sane and reasonable to me
09:14<@Alberth>need of the -a with commit?
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09:14<caracal>eh, i usually just name the files, or else add them explicitly ... i never use -a
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09:18<@Alberth>you never add a file, edit it, commit it, and are surprised you don't get the current contents in the repo?
09:19<+michi_cc>I never use -a either :) Simply because I always stage what I want to commit and review the staged changes before committing.
09:19<caracal>Alberth: never once, no
09:20<+michi_cc>Something which is very comfortable using git citool.
09:20<caracal>not even sure what you mean or how you'd do that ... i add a file, edit it, then "git commit -m 'whatever' somefile" and always get what i expect
09:21<@Alberth>after that, make a clone, checkout that clone, and look at the contents of the file :p
09:22<caracal>i have ... it's always what i think it should be
09:23<+michi_cc>git commit <filename> ignores staged changes, so you don't even need to add it unless it is newly created.
09:24<+michi_cc>But if you ever want to construct a commit series out of a complex change, explicitly using the staging area together with git add -i (interactively add diff chunks) respectively git citool is total win.
09:26<caracal>sure, although my projects (and changes to them) are seldom so complex ... especially in the simple case we were discussing initially
09:27<caracal>which was "i want to track this file's changes, but vc systems are too heavy" ... git is about as lightweight as they come
09:27<@Alberth>just a 4M package :p
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>i never really got comfortable with git
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>hg is much more svn-like
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, did some more reshuffling:
09:30<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: I never got comfortable with hg especially as it is much more svn-like ;)
09:30<caracal>Alberth: i meant usage overhead
09:31<caracal>but meh, you either like git or you don't, and both are fine with me ... was just reporting my own experiences, which have been uniformly positive
09:31<__ln__>is there a good short book about git from user's perspective?
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09:32<Eddi|zuHause>every time i asked that question i got an answer like "you first have to understand the internal structure of a git repo"
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>no. i do not.
09:32<+michi_cc>I like that layout more than the others so far, not too cluttered but still intricate enough. Do you already have tracks? Otherwise especially the red tracks could really benefit from using flex tracks instead of fixed curves.
09:33<@Alberth>caracal: I have considered a vcs too heavy. I have been using CVS, RCS, SVN, and HG for my files :)
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>i don't have tracks yet
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>well, i do have old ancient tracks, but i don't intend to use any of them
09:34<caracal>i've used rcs, cvs, svn, and tried hg but didn't like it ... ditto for bzr, another popular option ... used clearcase and dsee at work, both are fine for what they do
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09:35<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that is more organic and interesting
09:35<@planetmaker>hello oma^W opa
09:35<caracal>that's been my progression over the years: rcs -> cvs -> svn -> git
09:36<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: looks like a nice track layout :-)
09:36<@planetmaker>I might consider a straight line in the very upper part
09:36<opa>i'm learning to build bigger networks and i have one question about mainlines; is the space between tracks left only for possible hubs?
09:36<@planetmaker>depens probably who built the network ;-)
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: what do you mean with a straigh line?
09:42<andythenorth>a bit where you can go really fast :P
09:42<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: a track connection which goes --- and connects the two loops in the left and right
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>ah. not sure if i can fit a switch in there within the space constraints
09:44<@planetmaker>btw... what's the colour codes?
09:44<@planetmaker>track sections?
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>yes, track sections, but they are currently purely decorative.
09:45<@planetmaker>and the track density in the greed / white area: are they on different levels?
09:46<@planetmaker>I see :-)
09:47<@planetmaker>and what's the total size? The dimensions written there are confusing for me
09:48<@planetmaker>4m x 3.5m?
09:48<@planetmaker>where will you be in that room? :-P
09:48<@planetmaker>it's about the size of my sleeping room...
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>on the lower right ;)
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>where the door is
09:49<@planetmaker>just the space to open the door and run trains ;-)
09:49<opa>are talking about miniature railway?
09:49<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22627 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Codechange: Rename PrepareTextRefStackUsage() to StartTextRefStackUsage() to make it more obvious that you must call StopTextRefStackUsage() at some point. Also extent the documentation.
09:53<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22628 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp newgrf_text.h): -Codechange: Allow passing the textref stack values to use to StartTextRefStackUsage() instead of always using the temporary NewGRF registers.
10:00<__ln__>if only they made miniature railways that can be mounted vertically on the wall...
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10:14<opa>is this a good example for a 4 way sideline hub?
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10:21<frosch123>at least it seems to do split-before-merge
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>am i the only person failing to see the "good" part?
10:28<@Alberth>I fail to distinguish between good and bad, but that does not count, does it?
10:31<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: you fail to see the whole fun on such networks at all :-P
10:32<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22629 /trunk/src/ (6 files):
10:32<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#4599]: Remove all usages of the ErrorRefStack. It was continuously
10:32<CIA-2>OpenTTD: overwritten by e.g. industry prospection without closing the old error window;
10:32<CIA-2>OpenTTD: also StopTextRefStackUsage() was not called for errors returned by commands
10:32<CIA-2>OpenTTD: (which caused FS#4599). Now return in the CommandCost result whether the textref
10:32<CIA-2>OpenTTD: stack needs to be used, and store a copy of the stack values in the error window
10:32<CIA-2>OpenTTD: just like for the normal string parameters.
10:32<Ammler>the hub is very old so there are a lot "better" examples in the meantime
10:33<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22630 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp newgrf_text.h): -Cleanup: Remove SwitchToNormalRefStack() and SwitchToErrorRefStack().
10:37<opa>Ammler: can you give a link to a better one?
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10:38<opa>that one is from there
10:39<Ammler>there are more examples there...
10:40<opa>i could only find one other
10:40<opa>most are 3 way hubs
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10:43<@Alberth>2 x 3 way hubs == 1 x 4 way hub
10:44<Ammler>#openttdcoop does build a better one almost on every game :-)
10:45<opa>so the answer to my first question is: its not a good junction
10:47<@planetmaker>it's not bad. But it's not the best
10:47<opa>ok, thanks
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10:49<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22631 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Fix: Additional text in fund industry window is NewGRF supplied and thus should have a default colour.
10:52<@planetmaker>opa: the "best" junctions usually are found in the public server game archive
10:52<Ammler>"the best" is not built yet
10:53<@planetmaker>depends on defintion of "best" ;-)
10:56<opa>i'll give them a look
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11:16<@Alberth>building junction that make use of the local landscape is much more fun :p
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11:17<@planetmaker>[17:16] Alberth building junction that make use of the local landscape is much more fun :p <-- of course... But that is no strong constraint
11:17<@planetmaker>unless you combine that with a hard size constraint ;-)
11:18<@Alberth>set terraform limit to 0 :p
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11:21<andythenorth>is there a map array reason why they can't be diagonal (i.e. | – )
11:23<andythenorth>they would look considerably better in the landscape
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11:24<Eddi|zuHause>if the "trackbits" are available to the newgrf, and then you can draw diagonal rivers based on them
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>just you won't be able to build rail on the other half of the tile
11:25<andythenorth>that's bad for building an accurate model of the rhine :P
11:25<andythenorth>but otherwise fine
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>meh... flextracks are evil ;)
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>also, you still can't put rivers on half-slope tiles
11:26<andythenorth>you shouldn't be able to :P
11:26<andythenorth>it's a bad idea
11:26<andythenorth>canals maybe, not rivers
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>it's the key part which blocked my river patch...
11:26<andythenorth>orthogonal doesn't mean what I think it means :o
11:27<andythenorth>I only knew about the perpendicular aspect of it
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>it has lots of meanings in maths ;)
11:27<andythenorth>so it seems
11:27<andythenorth>the . product of vectors being 0 is just one of them :P
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>statistical correlation is also a form of (non-)orthogonality
11:28<andythenorth>rivers would be better if they could go | –
11:28<andythenorth>if I draw them, will someone patch for it?
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>rivers would be better if the could go down/along halftile slopes
11:28<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: why? rivers don't do that irl
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>yes, they do
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>they go in whatever direction is "down"
11:29<@planetmaker>a _|_ b: <a|b> = 0 ;-)
11:29<andythenorth>but given enough time they'd terraform the half tile away, unless the rock is exceptionally tough
11:29<andythenorth>and time is what rivers have
11:30<@planetmaker>I disagree. Halftile just means the direction of the slope is different
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: bäh, that's some evil physics notation that i never really understood ;)
11:30<andythenorth>I don't see how to meaningfully draw a river on a half tile slope
11:31<@planetmaker>hehe :-)
11:31<andythenorth>although with | and – rivers I can see how...
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11:31<andythenorth>to display the river on the half-tile slope demands use of 4 tiles
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>have i mentioned that flextracks are evil yet?
11:32<andythenorth>you should see what lego fans make of it
11:32<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: <a|b> is basically another way of writing a*b when a and b are entities which allow to form a scalar product
11:32<andythenorth>"omg the sky is falling - lego is so OVER"
11:32<andythenorth>(lego fans are mostly idiots)
11:32<@planetmaker>usually that notation is used in quantum mechanics
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yes, but what's an <a| then?
11:33<@planetmaker>a vector
11:33<@planetmaker>and |a> the transposed form
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that's because they are ADULTS and LEGO FANS simultaneously. they logically must be crazy ;)
11:33<@planetmaker>and <a|H|b> implies that H is a matrix operator
11:34<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: unlike fans of small trains :P
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11:34<Eddi|zuHause>i never said that :p
11:39<andythenorth>so should I draw | – rivers?
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12:32<Hirundo>hmm... are NewGRF station triggers / random bit reseeding actually implemented in OpenTTD?
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12:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes, please
12:58<andythenorth>will they be patched for?
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>we'll see about that ;)
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13:04<__ln__>meanwhile in copenhagen:
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13:10<frosch123>Hirundo: does not look like
13:11<frosch123>StationSpec::cargo_triggers is nowhere used
13:13<frosch123>and that property does not look as if it would be translated
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13:18<frosch123>hmm, maybe it is
13:19<frosch123>yeah, it is translated
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13:19<blup>good day
13:26<opa>does changing the acceleration model need you to restart the game to take effect?
13:28<@Terkhen>hi blup
13:28<@Terkhen>opa: no
13:28<@Terkhen>but existing games have their own settings
13:28<@Terkhen>if you change the setting in the main menu and then load a game, it will use its own settings
13:35<supermop>hey andy
13:35<Hirundo>frosch123: Is there a reason why it isn't implemented? Simply because no-one has bothered yet, or something else?
13:35<frosch123>likely the former
13:35<frosch123>peter just did not do it :p
13:37<frosch123>though i remember the question on which tiles the triggers actually apply
13:37<frosch123>only the tiles the train stands on
13:38<frosch123>the whole platform the train is in
13:38<frosch123>or the whole station
13:38<frosch123>hmm, though that is actually written in the specs :p
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14:42<andythenorth>the 'clever' canals-on-sea cheat for making docks
14:42<andythenorth>can also be used for rivers, and is less effective there :P
14:43<andythenorth>and caused me to chase a false bug with graphics
14:45*andythenorth builds a nice sea level causeway :P
14:48<andythenorth>any Dutch readers care to comment on realism of that?
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>other than the river shores are really boring?
14:51<andythenorth>what do you want? dancing bears? :P
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>anything that is not a straight green line
14:51<andythenorth>that I can manage
14:51<andythenorth>how about not building rivers at sea level?
14:51<andythenorth>can that be achieved whilst leaving the canal 'cheat' in place?
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>what's the problem?
14:52<andythenorth>might be a non-issue
14:52<andythenorth>maybe even an easter egg
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>it very certainly is a non-issue
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>because i don't see any issue.
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14:55<andythenorth>it causes (valid) graphical glitch at coasts for starters
14:55<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: in the top-most island here:
14:55<andythenorth>look at the river mouth
14:55<andythenorth>it's drawing extra shores over the sea,
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>that's a problem but not unique to rivers
14:56<andythenorth>you're making the assumption a river generator won't build rivers over sea?
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14:57<Eddi|zuHause>i'm saying place a canal at the same place and see what happens
14:57<andythenorth>I know
14:58<andythenorth>but there's no generator for canals
14:58<andythenorth>player does this themselves - less of an issue
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>there is no generator for rivers either.
14:58<andythenorth>he :)
14:58<andythenorth>I can't be bothered to argue case - I'll draw some more shores ;)
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15:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the graphical issue you talk about could probably be solved by providing more river/shore-hybrid tiles
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>and the shore-ness of the waterfall must be properly reset
15:06<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you mean tile code or tile graphics?
15:06<andythenorth>the graphics would just be an empty tile
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>i mean tile graphics
15:06<andythenorth>the issue is the code
15:06<andythenorth>the only sane thing to show there is a plain sea tile
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>it should not be empty graphics. but it should be graphics that better blend in with the shores
15:07<andythenorth>it seems like *way* TMWFTLB
15:07<andythenorth>it's supporting an edge case that arguably shouldn't exist
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>it's a perfectly valid tile configuration
15:08<andythenorth>well it shouldn't be :P
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>there is absolutely no reason to forbid river placement at sea level
15:08<andythenorth>can you actually describe what you would draw on that tile?
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the green (river-shore) bits on the side facing the river, and yellow (sea-shore) bits on the sides facing the sea
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the waterfall should not have the yellow shore bits displayed. that is probably an invalid edge case in the code
15:10<@planetmaker>I rather think it could be changed / fixed in the code... e.g. by distinguishing the type of shore river vs. sea
15:10<andythenorth>so two very small bits of land sticking into sea?
15:11<andythenorth>and all the other shore tiles also need duplicating
15:11<andythenorth>and a variant creating for 'this is a river at sea level so draw shore'
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>not "at sea level", only "next to a sea tile"
15:12<H-land>Ugh. I can't understand these trains at /all/.
15:13<andythenorth>is there such a thing as a sea tile?
15:13<H-land>I don't know what I'm doing wrong with my signaling, but they seem to find it fun to lose me money by, instead of accessing an unloading bay (as is quite readily available), they turn around and loop back and make another round. While they're fully loaded.
15:13<H-land>They've just got a thing for doing U-turns.
15:14<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that means drawing approximately 50 additional river tiles per climate
15:14<andythenorth>is it really worth it?
15:14<andythenorth>(assume a scale of 'is anything in the game worth it?') :P
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: a system of composing shores would be helpful
15:16<andythenorth>is it likely?
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>so you have 4 "corner-bits" and 4 "edge-bits" per climate
15:16<opa>is there a specific reason why shared orders are not copied when cloning a train?
15:16<andythenorth>a system of being able to detect reliably what's actually on a tile would be a starting point
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>and then each for river-adjacent or sea-adjacent
15:16<opa>i mean the orders are copied but not the 'link'
15:16<andythenorth>you can tell whether it's river or sea?
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>opa: use ctrl key when cloing
15:17<andythenorth>newgrf can't :P
15:17<andythenorth>newgrf also can't find coasts
15:17<opa>Eddi|zuHause: ah, thanks!
15:17<andythenorth>although maybe with enough conditional action 2 for slopes it might be able to 99% of the time :P
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that's just a matter of exposing the variables to newgrf
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>~ 3 LOC per variable ;)
15:19<andythenorth>newgrf river generator :P
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>this is about display, not generation ;)
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15:20<andythenorth>I know - got distracted ;)
15:21<andythenorth>newgrf generator would be painful
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15:31<andythenorth>why don't my ships use rivers?
15:31<andythenorth>rapids :P
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>ships tend to not want to go uphill by themselves :p
15:33<andythenorth>heading upstream on a river they go uphill all the way :P
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>that's a weird colour outside... it's both red from the sunset and grey from the rain
15:33<andythenorth>planetmaker: I think you finished the temperate rivers
15:33<andythenorth>they look ok in game to me
15:33<@planetmaker>yes, might be :-)
15:34<andythenorth>so should I make rougher shores for rivers?
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>openttd.grf should include river shores as well
15:36<@planetmaker>that's the point of the exercise ;-)
15:36<andythenorth>that is my purpose :)
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>just make them not-straight
15:38<andythenorth>should they be sandy?
15:38<andythenorth>might look better
15:40<@planetmaker>possibly, yes
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15:55<JamieT>Could somebody please point me in the direction of information on how to install a patch for an absolute noob? :)
15:56<Hirundo>Have you ever compiled openttd yourself?
15:57<@planetmaker>then do that first
15:57<@planetmaker>without any patch
15:58<@planetmaker>information is found in the wiki
15:58<JamieT>I don't know what you mean by compiled?
15:59<@planetmaker>"build from source code"
16:01<JamieT>This seem like a lot of work to install a patch.
16:01<Rubidium>it is
16:01<@planetmaker>it's nothing you 'just copy' and be done
16:01<andythenorth>that's what a patch involves :P
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16:03<JamieT>So, I don't just download a file, unzip it and put it in the right folder, like most addons?
16:03<@planetmaker>indeed not
16:03<@planetmaker>A patch is not an add-on to a finished game.
16:04<Rubidium>see an OpenTTD binary as a cake and openttd's sources as a recipe plus ingredients. Then a patch would be a change to the recipe and/or ingredients. Baking a cake would be like compiling OpenTTD. The best way to get information about whether the "modified" (i.e. patched) cake recipe can be baked properly is by first attempting to bake the unmodified cake, i.e. make sure the mixer works right and the over functions. After that you experiment with the different
16:04<@planetmaker>It's a piece of source code which subsequently requires you to build the whole game from all it's human-written pieces. By means of a compiler
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16:04<@planetmaker>I love that parabole, Rubidium :-)
16:05<opa>Rubidium: nice analogy :)
16:05<Ammler>JamieT: if you don't want to compile yourself, maybe the patch thread has prebuilt binaries
16:05<@planetmaker>sad only that I now want cake :-P
16:06<Ammler>I have cake :-P
16:06<@planetmaker>but don't have any...
16:06<Rubidium>make cake ;)
16:06<Rubidium>I doubt -jN (N > 1) really helps with baking a cake though
16:07<frosch123>it helps a lot with cookies though
16:07*andythenorth has giant chocolate buttons
16:07<JamieT>Well I'd like to use "Yet Another CargoDestinations" and" Improved Timetable Management." But to do so, I'm going to have to change source code and download various bits of software?
16:07<frosch123>imagine baking a single cookie :p
16:07<Rubidium>frosch123: true, you can link multiple cookies at the same time
16:07<andythenorth>there are binaries for YACD
16:08<Ammler>JamieT: and you might also consider using linux for that (or osx)
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16:09<JamieT>This is all a bit over my head. I think i'll just stick to the bog standard game.
16:09<Ammler>yacd binaries are available
16:09<andythenorth>someone will know where the click-and-go YACD is
16:09<Rubidium>JamieT: ITiM is so old that there is no single version of OpenTTD's sources where YACD and ITiM would even apply unmodified
16:09<@planetmaker>newgrfs can modify the default game already A LOT ;-)
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16:11<Rubidium>JamieT: and that means that you (basically) need to be a (somewhat) skilled software developer to pull it off
16:16<opa>why there are two-way exit signals in some examples of presignaling?
16:16<opa>two-way signals in front of a station
16:16<opa>ro-ro station
16:16<opa>instead of one-way
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16:19<@Alberth>opa: original game treated two-way different from one-way
16:19<JamieT>It doesn't really help me im afraid. I'll just leave it. Are there any 'NewGRF' things that I could use instead of ITiM or YACD?
16:20<andythenorth>JamieT: how doesn't it help you? :o
16:20<andythenorth>you want to play YACD?
16:21<@Terkhen>JamieT: ITiM is not a NewGRF; it is a patch
16:21<JamieT>Not now i know the amount of effort i'd have to put in
16:21<@Terkhen>patches require compiling the code
16:21<opa>Alberth: so it doesn't matter anymore?
16:22<@Alberth>it does with the original game :p openttd is smarter
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16:22<andythenorth>JamieT: why doesn't the link to binaries help you?
16:23<andythenorth>what do you want? We email you the actual file? Or is that too much work?
16:23<opa>Alberth: ok, thanks
16:24<JamieT>Because i don't have the first clue what to do with it. Emailing me the actually file would be nice :)
16:24<@Alberth>that IS the actual file :)
16:25<andythenorth>link to zip (assumes you have a sensible OS)
16:25<andythenorth>there are zips for windows and linux too
16:27<JamieT>Thank you.
16:28<andythenorth>warning: yacd is addictive
16:28<andythenorth>and very hard
16:29<opa>it looks very nice
16:31<caracal>it's, what, a fork of openttd with cargo destinations?
16:31<caracal>like simutrans has?
16:32<@Alberth>it's not a fork, just a patched version
16:32<caracal>okay, so basically ottd at heart
16:32<@Alberth>the patch is under development, and these are test bundles
16:32<@Alberth>in the openttd development forum, you can find the thread with all infor
16:33<@Alberth>thanks :)
16:33<opa>i just googled it
16:35<opa>is implicit order just for information what route is used?
16:36<@Alberth>although in the cargo d*st cases, the information is also used for cargo routing
16:36<@Alberth>and it gives you information which trains visit the station more precisely than just the explicit orders
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16:38<opa>its very nice too see that this game/project is still constantly being improved
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>damn, i probably need glasses or something... i seriously just read "cargo d'est"
16:44<__ln__>maybe you're becoming a frenchman
16:44<opa>after looking all these new and useful features which has been included since i last played opentt, the original transport tycoon looks a very crappy game :)
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>openttd from last year was a very crappy game compared to now
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>that's the nature of development
16:50<opa>what are the most essential new features developed during the last couple of years?
16:50<@planetmaker>good night
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16:53<Eddi|zuHause>opa: it says in the changelog
16:56<@planetmaker>nah... readmes and changelogs are written only for the trash bin :-P
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17:07<@Terkhen>good night
17:09<andythenorth>bye Terkhen
17:16<opa>is there any way i could make the loading train to leave when another trains arrives to the station?
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>only by timetabling all arrivals
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17:46<andythenorth>good night
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17:51<Zuu>Hmm, in theory it is a nice idea to collect all AI settings in the same place. But the # of oopcodes setting is a really advanced one that would scare most players if placed in a visible location.
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>then the only solution is to put all other AI settings into the advanced settings window
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18:03<Zuu>Either that or the AI settings window need to gain an advanced area.
18:05<Zuu>I think the advanced settings system need some work in order to handle the AI settings in a usable way, so it will need work either to get AI settings there or to get an advanced section in the AI Settings window.
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18:11<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but i think that work would be a good investment, if it results in _all_ settings being controlled from one single window
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18:28<caracal>hmm ... the max noise limit of a town seems to go up as the population increases, but the *allowed* limit hasn't moved ... anything i can do to influence that?
18:29<caracal>i need to build a larger airport!
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>allowed limit = max limit minus all currently existing airports
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>plus some distance bonus
18:35<caracal>hmm ... the max limit shows as 14, but i have only one "small" airport (noise 3) in town
18:35<caracal>so something else is up
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>the town may additionaly totally dislike you
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. if you destroyed lots of trees while preparing the area for your airport
18:36<caracal>heh ... my rep shows as Outstanding
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of airport do you want to build
18:36<caracal>this airport has been there for almost 20 years, with no other construction
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>and what is the error you get?
18:37<caracal>i want to build a City, as that's the only other option (until 1980) ... the error is "city authority won't allow this because of noise concerns" or some such
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>you try to build on the territory of another nearby town?
18:38<caracal>oooh, maybe that's the problem, there's a small town south of where i want to build
18:38<caracal>one sec, lemme check ...
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>the north corner of the airport counts
18:39<caracal>nope, it names the larger town, the one whose noise limits are 1/14 ... other towns have much higher than 1, and i've built City airports in those
18:40<caracal>this site is like 8 or 9 squares from the city center ... i've built that close elsewhere
18:40<caracal>they're just being dicks about it <g>
18:41<caracal>i assume that once the limit rises to 2/14 i can demolish the Small and build my City, as the Small will give me back 3 noise "points"
18:41<caracal>but it's been stuck at 1/14 for years now, sigh
18:41<caracal>well, no, it's been stuck at 1/N, where N keeps rising as the pop does
18:42<caracal>up to 14 by now
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>the 1 is the actual noise created by the small airport (3 originally, minus 2 bonus for distance)
18:43<caracal>ahhh, so it's not a limit, it's a measurement
18:43<caracal>so why can't i build a City on the same site?
18:44<caracal>if the limit is 14
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>no idea
18:44<caracal>well okay then <g>
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18:46<caracal>the actual message is "Perth local authority refuses permission for airport due to noise concerns"
18:47<caracal>huh ... after i demolish the Small, the city window keeps saying noise limit is 1/14
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19:02<caracal>hmm ... if my station's catchment area overlaps a competitor's station, it doesn't seem to pull passengers from his station ... pity
19:02<caracal>or maybe i'm just doing it wrong
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19:11<Chris_Booth>caracal: no it doesn't
19:11<Chris_Booth>you are not doing it wrong
19:12<Chris_Booth>unless you have the same catchmean area as there station
19:12<caracal>hmm, too bad
19:12<Chris_Booth>then you get a 50% split
19:12<caracal>nah, was trying to drain passengers from his train station with busses
19:13<caracal>and transfer them to my airport <g>
19:14<Chris_Booth>I hope this is in a single player game and not on a server
19:14<caracal>i could probably do it with several strategically-placed bus stations, but meh, he's not that big a threat
19:14<Chris_Booth>since that is not in the sprit of the game
19:14<caracal>oh? winning isn't? ;)
19:14<Chris_Booth>no having the best network with best flow is
19:15-!-bryjen [~bryjen@] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:15<Chris_Booth>or you and I play for different reasons
19:15<caracal>ah ... well given the scant reporting that the game gives for air routes, it's sorta hard to optimize
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19:15<caracal>i know, i know, its origins were trains, and it still favors them
19:16<caracal>i used to play RT2 by the hour
19:16<caracal>but in ottd, i like planes <g>
19:17<Chris_Booth>you like planes as they are easy to set up and make you lots of money
19:18<caracal>makes it easy to grab passenger subsidies
19:20<caracal>at least when the city allows you to build an airport, grumble
19:20<caracal>Perth are being real bitches about me upgrading my Small to a City airport
19:20<caracal>every other large city has a large airport, but Perth, noooo
19:23<caracal>built a Small airport there in 1955, and it's now hideously overcrowded ... it's now 1969, their noise limit is up to 16, yet they still won't let me upgrade
19:24<caracal>if they keep dicking me around, i'll just pull out and build somewhere else ... did that a few days ago to Miami in a USA game, for not letting me demolish five squares of road, and they withered on the vine after i left ... serves them right!
19:25<caracal>but it's a pain reassigning destinations to all the planes ... no mass replace that i've found
19:26<+glx>shared orders
19:26<caracal>shared routes help, but with planes there's only so much sharing you can do
19:26<caracal>five planes from one city to another are usually not as useful as to five different cities
19:27<caracal>same deal when i upgrade an airport to a larger one and the city won't let me build in the same spot
19:27<caracal>i usually try to buy land around smaller ones in anticipation of that, but in this case it's not helping
19:28<caracal>grumble city fathers and their grumble noise regulations! ;)
19:32<caracal>well, i found a site nearby that they let me build on, and with careful linking, was able to avoid major disruption ... i normally have an airport bus station that i can use as a station connection, so it becomes the "same" station
19:33<Eddi|zuHause>you can make sure the new airport gets the same name even though it is not the same location by using the ctrl key while building
19:33<caracal>in my fight with that train guy, i did discover something i hadn't realized before, at least i think i did: he built bus stations all over town, and linked them to his train station ... but he built no busses! and yet, that seemed to expand his train station's catchment area ... is that right?
19:34<caracal>Eddi|zuHause: yes, that's what i do ... if there's no bus station attached, the game does it automatically, otherwise i use ctrl
19:35<caracal>hmm, that station catchment thing is a revelation ... have to try that with my next airport
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>it's way more fun to have actual busses/trams go through the city, though ;)
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19:38<caracal>true ... that's my usual method, build a bus route first to fatten up the city, then build an airport and add it as a transfer stop on the bus route
19:39<caracal>plus, happy busses improve your rating with the local authority <g>
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>i have never had planes capable of handling all the passengers, though
19:41<caracal>i usually wind up with a fleet of 747's (excuse me, Darwin 300's) and a few Concorde's (er, Yate Haugans)
19:42<caracal>but yeah, once the cities get big enough, the airports can't handle enough planes to carry all the passengers
19:42<caracal>but by then i'm rich enough to build any sort of rail route i need, not that i usually do, not being very good with rail yet
19:43<caracal>this train AI is doing pretty well in stealing my business, but i have him stumped in Tasmania <g>
19:43<caracal>guess he can't afford a bridge that long
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19:45<Eddi|zuHause>there's a maximum bridge length somewhere
19:47<caracal>i just read this week that the chinese have built the world's longest bridge
19:47<caracal>longer than the previous record holder at Lake Ponchartrain
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19:48<caracal>alluke: yeah, big shock ... i figured they'd be happy just *owning* Lake P., like they do everything else in the usa
19:49<alluke>they want to be the next superpower
19:49<caracal>and they're well on their way
19:49<Eddi|zuHause>i have not kept up with who got the longest.
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>(double entendre intended)
19:50<caracal>well, despite racial stereotypes, the chinese do now ;)
19:52<alluke>i guess america has covered in their fat sausages
19:56<alluke>but my city has grown like kid's hair
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20:10<caracal>what's the secret to ships, btw? i've never been able to make any money with them, just too danged slow
20:11<caracal>with roads, it's busses and build huge fleets of anything else ... with planes, it's go long distances ... with rail, it's anything goes as long as the trains run on time ... but ships? always lose money with them
20:12<alluke>get big ships
20:12<alluke>not too long routes
20:13<Eddi|zuHause>don't use the default ships, use a newgrf like FISH
20:13<alluke>default ships are rubbish
20:13<caracal>hmm ... that may be my problem
20:14<caracal>in most scenarios i've seen, "big" is the only kind of ship there is, until sometime later some smaller varieties become available
20:14<caracal>i tried ships in Hawaii, but the distances are just too great
20:15<alluke>1080 ton coaster in fish is great for long distances
20:15<caracal>and ships are hideously expensive, too
20:15<alluke>but cheap to run
20:15<caracal>i think the game's goal is to prove that trains are better than anything else ;)
20:15<Eddi|zuHause>use ships for things that don't really decay in price rates. coal, ore and stuff
20:16<Eddi|zuHause>best if you transfer from multiple sources, so you have large capacity on the ships
20:16<caracal>yeah, that would make sense, and yet i can't seem to make them work ... just need to try smarter, i guess
20:17<caracal>tried shipping oil in Svalbard, but lost money every time
20:17<alluke>how the hell
20:17<+glx>use trains for oil :)
20:17<alluke>from rigs?
20:17<caracal>and yet you keep reading about "shipping magnates" being fabulously rich
20:17<+glx>raise land
20:18<caracal>well, in this case it was from coastal oilfields
20:18<alluke>ships make more sense
20:18<caracal>and there's a big mountain in the middle of the island that makes trains ... harder
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20:19<caracal>and it wasn't a very long route, either, just the ships were so danged *slow*
20:19<caracal>plus they get lost in the open ocean, and can't find their way around some land, so i had to build several buoys
20:20<caracal>i'll try them again sometime, but am having too much fun with planes right now <g>
20:20<alluke>use buoys
20:21<alluke>enabled oil rigs in my current game
20:21<alluke>may ships some oil later ;)
20:22<caracal>yeah, i was playing the netherlands a few days ago, all those tantalizing oil rigs off the coast ... but flying passengers to them with helos is a losing proposition, i've found
20:22<caracal>for one thing, without ships to pick up their oil, they keep closing
20:23<caracal>but even when they stay open, there's no money to be made flying passengers to/from them
20:24<alluke>i wish ogfx+ trees would support tropic better :/
20:24<alluke>now all trees are just palms
20:25<alluke>but i aint using it in this game anyway
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---Logclosed Mon Jul 04 00:00:46 2011