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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-07-04

---Logopened Mon Jul 04 00:00:46 2011
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03:05<dihedral>good morning
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04:42<@Terkhen>good morning
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08:02<MNIM>anythinng interesting lately?
08:05<_bl0kem>idling up 23% in the latest polls
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08:24<MNIM>idling what?
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09:11<_bl0kem>time spent idling in channels has increased 23%
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10:02<_bl0kem>this just in... new facebook viral spam has dynamic content creation
10:02<_bl0kem>thats wild yo..
10:08<@Belugas>god enough a reason not to get on facebook :)
10:08<@Belugas>good enough
10:13<_bl0kem>Yea i just have a blank profile to survey my surroundings
10:15<@Belugas>i'm more into the "don't touch it" mentality
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10:53<dihedral>Belugas, i am more in the "damage done"
10:54<_bl0kem>and i in the 'social pariah'
10:54*_bl0kem chuckles uneasily
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11:06*Belugas slurps coffee
11:06*andythenorth works on firs nfo->nml conversion
11:07<andythenorth>pasting 54k lines into a textarea crashes Safari :P
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11:09*DanMacK is out of coffee :(
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11:48<MNIM>no, SHEEET
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12:26*andythenorth has learnt a new word
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12:27<andythenorth>which is much shorter than saying "relying on referencing something by its position in an array is fricking stupid"
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12:42<alluke>lakie im disappoint
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12:43<andythenorth>Why? You lost all your apostrophes? Why blame lakie for that? :)
12:43<Lakie>How so?
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12:46<DanMacK>Hey Lakie
12:47<alluke>my birthday persent :(
12:48<Lakie>Hi DanMacK,
12:49<Lakie>Heh, well the set isn't particularly finished, I did the last of the steamers last week. Currently working on a bit a week.
12:49<Lakie>(By last, I mean adding 3-4 steamers in one go)
12:49<alluke>at least something is happening
12:50<Lakie>Just needs putting on devzone at somepoint
12:50<alluke>how are they named?
12:50<alluke>just the littera?
12:50<Lakie>hopefully by lang files
12:51<alluke>i mean the locos
12:51<Lakie>Currently for simplicity just 'tr1' ('type').
12:51<alluke>i dont think they need anything else
12:51<Lakie>But that will be changable (hopefully fairly simply)
12:51<DanMacK>Not going with Nicknames?
12:52<Lakie>I'm leaving the setting of the engine names to you DanMacK
12:52<Lakie>As I add them I'll just put engine names for simplicity
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12:53<alluke>how about early wagons?
12:53*andythenorth reworks FIRS sugar refinery, which is crappy currently
12:53<andythenorth>does anyone actually use the sugar refinery? I never deliver to it
12:53*DanMacK was thinking Class "Nickname" 0-0-0 (ie Tk3 "Pikku-Jumbo" 2-8-0)
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12:54*DanMacK thinks it has a place in a tropical setting
12:54<andythenorth>sugar beets are big where I grew up
12:54<andythenorth>and in central europe
12:54<DanMacK>What about the early wagons?
12:54<DanMacK>Where did you grow up?
12:54<andythenorth>middle uk
12:54<alluke>make the sugar beet change to cane in tropical
12:54<andythenorth>it does
12:55<alluke>you can play as brazil sugar baron :P
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12:55<Lakie>I put in the FO, Po and E, I think from memory
12:55<Lakie>I was going to deal with the proper cargo ones next as they need cargo tables and planning
12:57<alluke>whats E
12:58<alluke>early passenger wagon
12:58<alluke>is it drawn?
12:58<alluke>cant see pic on the site
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13:03<Lakie>Ok, its the Ei, Po and FO's in game
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13:10<alluke>how do i get tiny desert village grow
13:11<alluke>im already carrying passengers, mail, and water
13:16<frosch123>you need both water and food
13:17<alluke>doesnt accept food yet
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13:36<frosch123>iirc funding buildings circumvents the cargo requirements
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13:38<alluke>been doing that
13:40<andythenorth>doesn't funding go via the 'is town allowed to grow' method?
13:42<andythenorth>I dunno, I'm guessing
13:42<andythenorth>I could go read /src
13:43<alluke>its growing now a little
13:43<andythenorth>the wiki page on town growth has something about it
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22632 /trunk/src/lang/brazilian_portuguese.txt:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 2 changes by Luis_Mizuchiro
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14:12*andythenorth wonders
14:12*planetmaker doesn't :-P
14:13*Belugas would not
14:13*andythenorth is
14:14<Hirundo>frosch123: yesterday's short discussion about station random action2 made me wonder about industries
14:14<frosch123>for industries random stuff is implemented
14:14<Hirundo>Currently OpenTTD only reseeds the tile-specific bits
14:14<alluke>the rail bug isnt only isr issue
14:15<Hirundo>The specs state "The triggers are the same for both: " which sortof implies that industry random bits can also be reseeded, but it's not really clear
14:16<frosch123>triggering the industry means triggering all tiles at once
14:17<frosch123>well, i guess there are only triggers for the tiles
14:17<frosch123>oh, i think i get what you mean
14:18<Hirundo>That implies that Industry::random_triggers is bogus
14:18*andythenorth draws rough river shores
14:18<andythenorth>not 100% successful
14:18<andythenorth>really the issue is that rivers need to curve more
14:18<andythenorth>but that's not game style
14:19<Hirundo>TriggerIndustry is just a wrapper for a tileloop, indeed
14:20<frosch123>well, yes, but DoTriggerIndustryTile() only modifies tile bits
14:20<frosch123>let's see what ttdp does
14:27<frosch123>i don't see ttdp doing something different
14:29<frosch123>oh, wait, i see it
14:29<alluke>what if u code rivers to go like rails
14:29<frosch123>ttdp does first a loop over all tiles, triggering each tile, and then also updates the industry bits (which is missing from ottd)
14:29<alluke>you can ge more curves
14:29<frosch123>but ttdp does not call the industry action3 either
14:30<frosch123>i guess it ORs all rerandomisation bits of the tiles
14:30<Hirundo>and then, reseed that part of the industry random bits?
14:32<frosch123>yes, it reseeds those bits of the industry, which at least one tile action123-chain requested reseeding for
14:32<frosch123>so, the triggers only apply to tiles, but also affect the random bits of industries
14:33<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause planetmaker: Rubidium better river shores? (the N side only)
14:35<Hirundo>I'll add a note to the wiki
14:35<frosch123>i'll implement it :p
14:37<Rubidium>andythenorth: looks great to me
14:37<Hirundo>division of labour :)
14:37<frosch123>Hirundo: actually this only seems to apply to triggers 1 and 2 (which are called for all tiles)
14:37<frosch123>trigger 0 does not seem to update the random bits of the industry
14:37<andythenorth>I await comment from Eddi|zuHause
14:37<andythenorth>as it was his request
14:38<Hirundo>So only if (waiting_triggers | new_trigger) & 0x06 != 0 ?
14:39<frosch123>i wonder whether this is a bug in ttdp as well
14:39<frosch123>no, only when they actually trigger
14:39<frosch123>so, new_trigger & 0x06
14:40<frosch123>so, if 0 is waiting, it would actually change the industry bits :o
14:40<MNIM>hmmmmh, question.
14:40<frosch123>which makes it even more look like a bug
14:41<MNIM>when you order a vehicle to transfer, does the destination still use its resources if it accepts it?
14:41<MNIM>(like it would with just 'unload all'
14:42<Hirundo>no, transfer is intended to move the cargo to the station, even if it is accepted
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14:51<andythenorth>bit ragged
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14:55<andythenorth>with a town:
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14:57<frosch123>oh, this reseeding of the related object's bit is actually unique to industries
14:57<frosch123>vehicles do it different
14:57<Hirundo>Then how does it work for vehicles?
15:00<MNIM>It would be nice if vehicle titles would display a load percentage
15:00<frosch123>looks like vehicles can only change their own bits
15:01<frosch123>the related / self thingie only applies to waiting triggers
15:02<frosch123>luckily airports and objects have no triggers yet :p
15:02<Hirundo>So a vehicle can change its own bits, based on the triggers of another vehicle?
15:03<frosch123>i wonder whether type 84 makes any sense with reseeding
15:05<frosch123>yeah 84 also only affects reading of random bits, and reading and setting of triggers
15:05<frosch123>not reseeding
15:05<frosch123>at least in ottd, let's compare with ttdp
15:05<andythenorth>did the S shore:
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15:06<Hirundo>tbh, I always wondered, if random action2 made any sense.... (at least the CB 1 mechanism)
15:07<frosch123>hehe, yeah. at least i very much opposed the addition of type 84 back then
15:09<Hirundo>A 60+x var that gets the random bits of other vehicles in the chain might make more sense, exp. now we have var 7B
15:09<MNIM>hmmmmmh. andythenorth, If it is not too late to do so, Id suggest making the beaches for rivers visibly smaller than sea shores, but still winding and irregular
15:09<andythenorth>it is not too late to do so
15:09<andythenorth>and they are
15:10<andythenorth>I tried using rocks instead of sandy shore, but it doesn't look right
15:10<MNIM>hmmmh, oh yeah. got a bit skewed when comparing to original river.
15:11<MNIM>to be honest, I don't mind the original rivers apart from the fact that they're straighter than a ruler
15:11*Alberth likes the comment by FooBar: :D
15:11<MNIM>(note, Im using opengfx
15:12<alluke>me too
15:13<alluke>those rivers look nice but they wont fit elsewhere than original ttd terrain
15:13<MNIM>I think what thexfile means is that he wants a suspended monorail as railtype, not as roadtype
15:13<andythenorth>alluke: what would you suggest instead?
15:14<alluke>drawing them in ogfx style too?
15:14<andythenorth>but then they won't fit original ttd terrain
15:15<alluke>separate files?
15:15<andythenorth>ah I see
15:15<andythenorth>so draw two sets of rivers?
15:15<Ammler>yes, please :-)
15:15<alluke>only solution afaik
15:16<Ammler>andythenorth: psd with different layers
15:17<andythenorth>I reduced the shores a little:
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15:17<andythenorth>does a psd with different layers help?
15:17<alluke>what about rapids
15:17<MNIM>excellent, andy!
15:18<andythenorth>rapids are fast moving sections of water found on rivers
15:18<Ammler>gimp can make pngs from it
15:18<alluke>harhar :P
15:18<alluke>i mean the sloped river tiles
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15:18<MNIM>the only thing is that you need to shift both shores a little, since the upper shore looks really steep while the lower shore looks really too gentle in comparison
15:19<Ammler>maybe you could also make different river shores and use random?
15:19<Ammler>also try to make a lake
15:20<andythenorth>MNIM: I'll try that
15:20<andythenorth>Ammler: make your own lake :)
15:20<andythenorth>check out the grf
15:20<Ammler>I meant to see how your graphics fit :-P
15:21<andythenorth>that's what I mean
15:21<Ammler>IMO, your shores are to small
15:21<Ammler>such a big ship does not need to fit one one tile rifer, necessary, does it?
15:21<andythenorth>you want more sand?
15:22<alluke>you can always build larger rivers
15:22<alluke>so one tile should be narrow enough for smaller boat
15:23<Ammler>andythenorth: around 3 pixels on both sides :-)
15:23<andythenorth>Ammler: so same as coasts?
15:23<MNIM>it would be nice to be able to build rivers in-game
15:23<Ammler>andythenorth: not just sand, could also be grass
15:23<alluke>but you can do it in scenario editor
15:23<Ammler>or stones
15:24<alluke>just rename the save file to .scn, mod it, and rename back to .sav
15:24<Ammler>I am not aware of rivers with sand shores
15:24<andythenorth>Ammler: they can't be physically larger
15:24<MNIM>yeah, but I don't like having to switch all the time
15:24<andythenorth>they'll clip
15:24<alluke>could the shores be different in different climates
15:24<alluke>like desert and snow
15:24<frosch123>hmm, you can say about ottd not complying to newgrf specs what you want, but ttdp is just as broken :p
15:25<Ammler>of course
15:25<Ammler>alluke: check opengfx
15:25<alluke>i already have it
15:25<Ammler>opengfx has already rivers, not that nice ones, but it has
15:26<Ammler>so then why do you ask?
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15:26<alluke>i meant those new ones
15:26<alluke>like sandy shores on desert and grassy in the rainforest
15:27<Ammler>no idea, how much different they can be in the same climate
15:27<alluke>or stone on arctic and ice on snow
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15:30<alluke>cool cement wagon
15:34<Hirundo>doesn't ttdp consider itself the reference implementation of the specs?
15:41*andythenorth -> pub
15:41<andythenorth>fascinating discussion on rivers can wait until another day
15:42<devilsadvocate_>Hirundo: doesnt everyone, everywhere, consider themselves the refernece implementation?
15:43<andythenorth>when it comes to river sprites, apparently yes
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15:47<@Alberth>devilsadvocate_: nah, I am not the reference implementation of me :)
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16:09<@Alberth>Ammler: EOL ?
16:11<Ammler>that was default in pre 1.0 and changed
16:12<@Alberth>sorry, no idea what you are saying :)
16:12<Ammler>I accidentially sliped in that thread, I usually do nothing there
16:12<Ammler>pf.yapf.rail_firstred_twoway_eol = on$
16:13<@Alberth>oh, a yapf setting :o
16:14<Ammler>yes, that is off now per default
16:14<@Alberth>amazing what those players know :D
16:14<@Alberth>thanks for explaining
16:14<Ammler>I am not sure, if that situation in his image would work with it
16:15<Ammler>but I made such depot buffers already
16:15<@Alberth>hmm, is that a compability setting with the original program perhaps?
16:16<@Alberth>I seem to remember that ttdx used to treat 2way signals differently (unfortunately I found out after I was finished playing with it :( )
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16:25<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22633 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf_railtype.cpp rail.h table/railtypes.h): -Fix: Implement variables 25 and 7F for railtypes.
16:28<Ammler>Alberth: that is not just compatibility, it is mandatory for our gameplay
16:28<Ammler>we need quite a lot to "force" trains taking a redirect :-)
16:32<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22634 /trunk/src/ (13 files): -Codechange: Deduplicate some code. Note that zeroing 'count' is intentionally removed, it is only used together with 'scope'.
16:37<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22635 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Fix: Correctly reseed random bits of industries and industry tiles.
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16:42<frosch123>I wonder whether any industry grf will notice that
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16:52<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause planetmaker: Rubidium better river shores? (the N side only) <-- looks good
16:53<@Alberth>sufficient highlights I'd say :p
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16:55<Eddi|zuHause>could easily add half a dozen more :p
16:56<frosch123>what do you mean, Eddi|zuHause?
16:56<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: do you mean highlights?
16:56<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: or something else?
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>i meant highlights, yes ;)
16:56<frosch123>thought so, Eddi|zuHause :)
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>but andy is gone
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17:40<opa>changing acceleration model doesn't seem to affect train speeds
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>not the max speed, but the speed in curves and on hills
17:50<opa>that too
17:50<opa>even one slope slows my trains to 1/4 top speed
17:51<Hirundo>frosch123: Nice, quick fix :)
17:52<Ammler>that is old accel model?
17:52<Hirundo>wrt stations, I guess we are currently missing map bits to store the platform-specific triggers
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>opa: the original acceleration model has really harsh limit on slopes
17:52<frosch123>Hirundo: just extended the specs with the information i gather from ottd and ttdp code
17:53<frosch123>i also wrote a note about remembering triggers of stations :p
17:53<opa>Eddi|zuHause: changing to realistic model still slows down my trains considerably even in one slope
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17:54<Ammler>then you use a very weak engine
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>opa: that depends on train power, steepness setting and freight multiplicator
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17:55<frosch123>Hirundo: basically, remembering triggers for stations makes no sense. there will never be enough bits for all cargo types
17:56<opa>steepness setting and freight multiplicator are defaults
17:56<opa>train has 2200hp and it has 4 cars
17:58<Hirundo>hmm.. what if the north tile of an airport isn't an airport tile? or are non-square airports not yet supported?
17:58<frosch123>yeah, wondered that as well
17:58<frosch123>maybe those 4 bits are unintentional
17:58<frosch123>Yexo-: ^^
17:59<Yexo->an airport where the north tile is no airport tile leads to all sorts of problems
17:59<Yexo->it's one of the reasons the statemachine callback is not done
17:59<Yexo->there is no obvious "base" tile in that case, so no tile to base the z-heigth on
17:59<frosch123>well, but should airports access the 4 random bits of the north tile?
18:00<frosch123>or should that feature be removed?
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>opa: you sure you changed the setting within the savegame?
18:00<Yexo->do they?
18:00<Yexo->if they do, that's unwanted
18:01<Yexo->opa: the "default" value of those settings has changed over time
18:01<Yexo->so please state the exact value of those settings
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18:01<Eddi|zuHause>how do industries behave in those cases?
18:01<Hirundo>They only access the industry-specific bits
18:02<Yexo->I only read a few lines before where frosch123 highlighted me
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18:03<Eddi|zuHause>there's no sane reason why airports should behave differently to industries wrt random bits
18:03<Yexo>if there is more I should know, please fill me in
18:03<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: there is: airports tiles currently have no parent scope, so no way at all to access airport random bits
18:04<Yexo>that's why they behave like stations
18:04<Yexo>+ the fact that airport tiles are station tiles in the code, which made it easier to share that
18:04<Yexo>conceptually they're a bit of both, which makes it difficult
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>how about non-square airports must specify a "reference" tile, that must be within their area
18:04<frosch123> <- Yexo
18:05<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: that was also the idea I had, just never implemented it
18:05<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: read the new page on randomaction2
18:06<frosch123>there is no reason why anything should behave the same
18:06<Yexo>frosch123: ah, that's "airport" code, not "airport tiles" code. :) looks good
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>a byte or word-sized property, format XXYY, which is an offset to the north corner, defaults to 0 (meaning the north corner itself). if it is not within the airport area, then the airport is invalid and cannot be built
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>"north corner" is a bad word, since it would be rotated
18:07<Yexo>for rotated airports the reference tile should be rotated too
18:07<Yexo>so in case of 180* rotated it should be the "south corner"
18:07<Yexo>that idea sounds good
18:08<opa>arf, user error. i could sworn that there read "vehicle", not "road" where i tried to change the model...
18:08<opa>btw why the realistic one is not default?
18:08<Yexo>I don't have the time to implement it (or anything else) anytime soon though
18:08<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22636 /trunk/src/newgrf_airport.cpp: -Fix: Airports should not expose the tile specific random bits of the north tile. Only airport tiles should access those.
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18:12<Yexo>night frosch123
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18:38<Jerik>Is anyone here avilable to give some gameplay advice
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18:45<Hirundo>Just ask your question
18:45<Jerik>I downloaded the ame yesterday and have been flipping through the manual/tutorials
18:46<Jerik>However, I have no idea how to play. What's a good starting strategy? I run out of money pretty quickly, and it seems my initial investment don't have a very good return
18:47<Jerik>Looking at the books, my biggest expense seems to be property maintenance
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18:58<MNIM>Jerik: whatever you do, start with transporting coal from mines to power plants first
18:59<Jerik>The method is less important? Should I start with trucks and move to trains?
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19:12<Eddi|zuHause>the easiest money is airplanes over long distances
19:12<Jerik>So I should use my starting money on planes?
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>many people focus on trains
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>make sure the train is set to "full load" on the mine
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>start with coal, ore, or passengers
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>passengers are very good if you have two large cities (>2000 inhabitants) nearby
19:15*__ln__ starts with a few coal (rail) routes usually
19:15<Jerik>Ah. I've been doing a lot of busses/trucks. Starting to think that's not the right move?
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19:16<Eddi|zuHause>there have been people doing "truck only" games ;)
19:16<Jerik>I start out and only a few years in I'm dead broke and only bringing in 5-8k/yr
19:18<Jerik>Truck only must be intense
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19:18<caracal>a technique that's worked for me, in some scenarios at least, is (1) build bus routes in the two largest cities ... maybe 2 to 4 busses each (2) let that run for a while, until the passenger load increases (3) build an airport in each city and start flying planes between them
19:19<caracal>one trick is to build a bus stop near the airport, link it with the airport, and add it as "Transfer and leave empty"
19:19<caracal>that crowds your airports pretty quickly
19:20<caracal>you may have to increase your loan a time or two during the early years, but it turns into a cash cow pretty quickly
19:20<Jerik>Alright, I'll have to give that a shot.
19:20<Jerik>Thanks Eddi/Cara
19:21<caracal>then as your balance gets fat, start doing the same thing in increasingly smaller cities
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19:21<caracal>i mopped the floor with the AIs a couple days ago, despite their building passenger train routes everywhere
19:22<caracal>but i'm a n00b, so you can't take my advice as being worth much ;)
19:22<caracal>air routes certainly lack the poetic righteousness of a large well-laid-out rail system
19:24<Jerik>Haha, well I don't know jack, so any advice is good advice
19:24<Jerik>And yeah, it seems from the wiki that trains are a far-and-away favorite
19:30<caracal>the game descended from Railroad Tycoon, so that's understandable
19:31<caracal>trains are cheap to buy, cheap to run, haul huge amounts, and are quite fast compared to most other vehicles
19:36<opa>this game would be pretty boring without trains
19:39<opa>i think that trains are easier to get working
19:40<opa>i allways seem to have trouble with trucks/buses
19:40<caracal>i'm the reverse ... laying track is always a problem for me
19:40<Eddi|zuHause>tracks are easy. signals are where the fun starts :)
19:41<caracal>tracks are easy if the ground is perfectly flat
19:42<caracal>and yes, signals are still mostly a mystery to me ... i seem to recall building pretty complex rail layouts in RT2, but i think ottd's signals are more complex
19:42<Jerik>I had to make a big, flat, empty scenario just to get a grip on junctions
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19:51<Jerik>PLeas print money
19:51<Jerik>Wow. That was quite the mistype
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19:52<caracal>heh ... yes, please print me some money ;)
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---Logclosed Tue Jul 05 00:00:47 2011