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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-07-07

---Logopened Thu Jul 07 00:00:50 2011
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02:36<@Terkhen>good morning
02:36<Markk>Goedemorgen. :)
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03:25<dihedral>good morning
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08:27*andythenorth ponders rivers
08:27*andythenorth got fed up with rivers previously
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08:58<andythenorth>my big towboat in FISH overlaps canal edges horribly :(
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09:12<MNIM>andy: is that new content you're building?
09:13<MNIM>I have to wonder, though, why has nobody of making something like the log tugboat with barges instead of logs
09:13<MNIM>good to hear somebody is working on it though
09:18<MNIM>hmmmh, neat
09:18<andythenorth>1-5 barges
09:18<MNIM>though I'd put the tugboat in the center of direction of travel
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09:19<MNIM>but that's just my ocdness on vehicles, I suppose. :P
09:20<MNIM>a vehicle is supposed to LOOK good otherwise it'll never drive/float/fly good. :)
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10:16<CIA-2>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22639 /trunk/src/ (engine_type.h newgrf.cpp ship_cmd.cpp): -Feature: [NewGRF] Support for ship props 14/15 (ocean/canal speed fraction).
10:16<CIA-2>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22638 /trunk/src/ (water_cmd.cpp water_map.h): -Fix: Keep the previous owner of the upper and lower lock parts if they are built on existing water.
10:17<+michi_cc>andythenorth: ^^ might be interesting for you
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10:18<@peter1138>what about river speed? :)
10:19<MNIM>do they already have something like roadtypes?
10:19<MNIM>it would be nice to have something like nutracks with speedlimits on roads
10:20<+michi_cc>Rivers and canals, at least what the NewGRF specs are concerned.
10:20<MNIM>sandpath - 16kmh, cobblestones 50, concrete 80, asphalt 140 or something like that.
10:21<dihedral>and who defines that?
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10:28<@planetmaker>dihedral, the newgrf, like for railtypes
10:29<@planetmaker>but then... I know that cobblestone's limit is definitely significantly higher than 50km/h :-P
10:29<dihedral>yes, that would make sense :-) but you would want to define it for each vehicle
10:29<dihedral>rather than define it for each road type
10:30<@planetmaker>it would just work analoguously to railtypes: vehicles have already a road type (tram vs. road)
10:31<@planetmaker>no new concepts needed there at all
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10:31<@planetmaker>"just" fixing and defining all the loose ends on where roads interface with other stuff.
10:31<@planetmaker>Which are lots.
10:31<@planetmaker>even towns... which care not at all about rails
10:32<@peter1138>concrete 80km/h?
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10:32<@planetmaker>:-) I guess German highways are concrete...
10:33<@peter1138>hmm, how would you express "it's cheap but noisy" as a newgrf property? hehe
10:35<@planetmaker>well... it could have an effect on town growth if roads had a noise property
10:35<@planetmaker>or on LA rating
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10:40<dihedral>yay - noise limit :-P
10:40<dihedral>build this road type or an airport :-D
10:41<dihedral>and a small town starts off with bad roads? and the quality of the roads have an affect on the vehicles reliability?
10:42<dihedral>and on the goods the vehicle transports
10:42<dihedral>and thus on the pay
10:42<dihedral>unless it transports milkshake
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11:16<andythenorth>michi_cc: :) @22639
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11:29<andythenorth>michi_cc: is there any buy menu window feedback on canal / sea speed?
11:29<andythenorth>or I should just read the source? :P
11:30<supermop>sea speed?
11:30<+michi_cc>andythenorth: There isn't for now, but TTDP hasn't either. I did considered it, but displaying a different speed depending on whether the depot is on sea or canal might be too confusing.
11:31<andythenorth>I can add it manually, but it will be a bit odd
11:31<andythenorth>default will say "speed: 16mph"
11:31<andythenorth>then I'll add "canal speed: 14mph"
11:33<supermop>shouldn't small boats go faster on the smooth water of a canal than on a rough speed?
11:33<supermop>like an old-timey british canal boat
11:33<andythenorth>that will be my next question :P
11:33<andythenorth>which boats should go at what speeds where?
11:33<+michi_cc>supermop: Why do you think there are two props? :)
11:33<andythenorth>but I have to go out now
11:34<supermop>rivers will be same as canal?
11:35<+michi_cc>Yeah, the NewGRF specs don't differentiate there.
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11:41<supermop>i assume asking for littoral speeds is too hard?
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11:50<Eddi|zuHause>a "lit-toral" is a torus shaped bed?
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11:53<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> but then... I know that cobblestone's limit is definitely significantly higher than 50km/h :-P <-- that heavily depends on the quality of the road :p
11:53<+glx><Eddi|zuHause> a "lit-toral" is a torus shaped bed? <-- nice one :)
11:56<andythenorth>so how should ship speeds vary?
11:56<andythenorth>FISH has three classes of boat
11:56<andythenorth>river boats
11:56<andythenorth>coastal vessels
11:57<andythenorth>and boats where it really doesn't matter
11:57<andythenorth>so are canals in game ship canals? or boat canals?
11:57<andythenorth>and is the sea deep, or shallow?
11:59<@planetmaker>I'd give the coastal vessels the same speed, but a higher speed for river vessels on rivers (if that's feasible)
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>i'd make it like this: river ships: fast on rivers, very slow on ocean. ocean ships: fast on ocean, very slow on rivers. "in-between" ships: medium speed on either
11:59<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that's about what I thought too
11:59<andythenorth>currently it will suck, because there are no rivers
11:59<andythenorth>but the plan is good
11:59<@planetmaker>there are canals
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>on rivers it's like: the larger the boat gets, the slower it must be
12:00<@planetmaker>and they're treated like rivers wrt speed
12:02<supermop>littoral meaning area near coasts and estuaries
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12:09<Chris_Booth>andythenorth: the issue I see with slow / fast boats is the actual dock, since it can't be both in the sea and in a river one class of ship will have to be slow
12:09<Chris_Booth>or you will need to use 3 ship types
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12:10<supermop>it shouldnt be a problem, docks in rivers would serve river boats primarily, and large ships docking there could reasonable expect to be slowed
12:10<supermop>and vis-versa
12:11<Chris_Booth>but will these ships not hold up other ships? or will it be the case as it is at the moment and they can just drive over each other?
12:11<Lapland>I'm having trouble installing openttd on my ubuntu laptop. I thought I'd just figured everything out, but now when I try to run it it says that there aren't any valid language packs, even though there's a whole directory full of them in the same place the folder I downloaded put them.
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>all ships should be slow while approaching a dock
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>Lapland: you mixed language packs from differrent game versions, this is not possible
12:13<supermop>and yes, currently there seems to be no way preventing ships driving over each other. as long as stations can only have one dock
12:13<Lapland>All right, then. I'll see what I can do about that...
12:13<supermop>it would even be desirable to keep it that way
12:18<Lapland>Eddi|zuHause: I tried clearing and refilling the language files; it didn't help.
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12:20<@Terkhen>why did you change the languages at all? the ones included with the version you downloaded are the ones you want
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12:20<Lapland>I just feel like I'm making a huge mess, now- and I /didn't/.
12:20<@Terkhen>where did you download openttd?
12:21<Lapland>Um... I guess it was a nightly binary. Maybe I'm forgetting to compile or some such.
12:21<@Terkhen>nightlies should have everything you need
12:22<@Terkhen>no clue then, for me it's just untar -> run :)
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12:27<Ammler>Lapland: unpack the download in fresh location, do not overwrite existing install
12:38<Lapland>Now I just need to figure out how to uninstall things...
12:42<Ammler>delete the pack, done
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12:47<Eddi|zuHause>"Holland builds most expensive section of highway in the world"
12:47<Lapland>Article link?
12:48<Lapland>I want to know how many kilometers they're putting on pontoons until they finish building windmills to pump out all the water.
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>,1518,772748,00.html <-- but it's in german
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13:32<andythenorth>if I draw sandy shores for rivers, will the sky fall in?
13:32<andythenorth>I think they look better
13:32<andythenorth>if someone hates it, flood fill them to muddy green :P
13:35<supermop>sounds good
13:36<supermop>so long as all sea shores have sand, rivers might as well be sandy/muddy/gravelly
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13:40<Ammler>no grassy shores are indeed nicer
13:42<andythenorth>Ammler: is that a yes or a no to sand?
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13:43<Ammler>more yes
13:43<Ammler>sand is better as gras
13:44<Ammler>sand is not best :-)
13:44<@Alberth>andythenorth: are you aware of smoke clipping problems with a dairy?
13:44<Ammler>andythenorth: but I wont see you rivers anyway
13:44<Ammler>or will you make a ogfx version too?
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22640 /trunk/src/lang/brazilian_portuguese.txt:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 2 changes by Tucalipe
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13:50<@Alberth>andy got washed away by the river while placing sand :)
13:54<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: as if that stretch of highway ever gets finished ;)
13:55*andythenorth will probably lose connectivity in a minute
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: call it the "Duke Nukem Highway" :p
13:55<Rubidium>yeah, when it gets built it'll be terrible
13:55<andythenorth>Alberth: the smoke clipping is a limitation of ottd
13:56<andythenorth>the only fix is to move the chimney
13:56<andythenorth>it glitches on a few industries
13:56<andythenorth>it's annoying :)
13:56<@Alberth>so you are aware of it, and it is not your fault :) ok
13:56<andythenorth>I don't fancy moving the graphics around to fix it :|
13:57<andythenorth>I could probably cheat by putting the smoke on another tile, and shifting the z a lot
13:57<andythenorth>instead of shifting x and y of the smoke over the chimney tile
13:57<@Alberth>nah, that just hides the problem
13:57<andythenorth>I suppose I could add it to the other 80 FIRS tickets :P
13:58<Lapland>Nuke Nukem? Or Episode 3 Memorial Highway?
13:58<@Alberth>better add it to the few 1000 openttd bugs :)
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13:58<andythenorth>Ammler: I won't do opengfx rivers
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14:00<Ammler>then I should not care :-)
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14:52<andythenorth>muddy green shores might look best for rivers
14:52<andythenorth>I continued with sandy, but when more angles have it, it gets a bit....sandy
14:53<Lapland>Which could be okay for deserts, but...
14:53<andythenorth>any -1 for dark green mud?
14:57<Lapland>Great, I think I broke Ubuntu by uninstalling OpenTTD the wrong way.
14:59<supermop>greay rocks?
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>Lapland: for how many days have you been using linux?
14:59<Lapland>Isn't that what canals are already?
15:00<Lapland>Eddi|zuHause: Several days, but I've mostly been doing things that aren't too complicated.
15:01<andythenorth>using grey will leave minimum variation from canals
15:01<supermop>more bumpy grey rocks?
15:01<andythenorth>don't think it will work
15:01<supermop>switch to rusty sheet-pile for canals?
15:01<andythenorth>might have found a better route
15:01<supermop>brown mud?
15:01<andythenorth>sometimes forgetting reality helps
15:02<andythenorth>imaging it's an early 90s pixel art game is helpful :P
15:02<supermop>how do the ogfx waves work?
15:02*andythenorth -> to the pixels
15:02<@planetmaker>supermop: palette animation
15:04<opa>newest technology :P
15:05<@Alberth>opa: unheard of at current colour depths ;)
15:06*Alberth waves hi to planetmaker
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15:13*planetmaker waves also 'hi' @ Alberth :-)
15:14*andythenorth prefers this version
15:15<andythenorth>not sandy, not rocky, not muddy
15:15<andythenorth>just ...shores
15:15<andythenorth>river banks aren't something that should be noticed
15:16*andythenorth will finish those
15:17<@Alberth>it takes a bit getting used to, but grassy would be logical given all the other green tiles
15:17<@Alberth>s/would be/is/
15:17<andythenorth>there isn't enough pixel space to draw details well
15:18<andythenorth>just a couple of pixels to do a blend between terrain and water
15:18<@Alberth>that makes sense
15:18<supermop>looks better than default already andy
15:18<supermop>i think it is a logical way to show it
15:19*andythenorth hopes it works with other terrains
15:20<andythenorth>it's basically same as FIRS clay pit
15:20<andythenorth>turns out I solved this once already :P
15:26<supermop>maybe i should model some 32bpp sprites
15:26<Lapland>Whenever you realize that you've solved a problem before in a case like this, you're always thrilled, because you're problem's not a problem any more- but then you have to hate yourself, too, for not thinking of it sooner
15:26<supermop>i have a desire to draw some murdered out trucks
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16:01<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Now that is a nice shore :)
16:02<andythenorth>I think it's better :)
16:04<maglev>so what 32bpp sprites do you guys suggest?
16:05<supermop>some murdered out trucks that i havent yet drawn
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16:26<andythenorth>there seem to be numerous river sprites in this sprite sheet that aren't used
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16:32<Rubidium>I guess the associated nfo might be more interesting; seems like some are for level 0 or something like that
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16:34<Rubidium>oh, it's just one blob of sprites ?!?
16:36<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22641 /trunk/src/table/engines.h: -Fix (r22639): Warning about uninitialised fields.
16:36<andythenorth>Rubidium: yeah, I'm guessing it's sourced from a decompiled grf
16:36<andythenorth>I have split it into climates to be a bit more sane
16:37<andythenorth>there are a lot of sprites that seem to be duplicate
16:37<andythenorth>some are for river + coasts, but not all
16:38<Rubidium>the duplication seems to be only really useful for the last 4 sprites (sloped ones)
16:39<andythenorth>I couldn't find any spec on what's actually required for rivers
16:39<Rubidium>neither can I
16:39<andythenorth>what fun :)
16:40<Rubidium>besides what openttd's code says
16:40<andythenorth>there's always that :)
16:40<andythenorth>is it canonical? :P
16:41<Rubidium>anyhow, offsets (per slope) are flat: 0, se: 12, ne: 24, sw: 36, nw: 48
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16:41<frosch123>there are 12 per slope
16:41<frosch123>4 borders
16:41<Rubidium>and I reckon the sprites *after* the first 12 are just to make it look nice on all the other slopes you can build rivers on
16:41<frosch123>4 inner corners, 4 outer corners
16:45<andythenorth>ok cool
16:45<andythenorth>my test scenario misses some cases
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16:54<@Terkhen>good night
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17:52<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22642 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Change: Disable the 'set parameters' button in the NewGRF GUI, if the GRF specifies to have no parameters and one would not be able to set any parameters anyway.
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21:34<Eddi|zuHause>that was weird...
21:34<Eddi|zuHause>connection disappeared without any apparent reason
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22:03<supermop>not sure what, if anything, i should draw for ottd
22:35<Eddi|zuHause>i could give you a list of engines ;)
22:39<supermop>never drawn a vehicle thusfar
22:40<supermop>i have some rhino models of buildings/stations/bridges, and then pixel art of sheds, but i am having trouble motivating myself to work on either
22:41<supermop>i need to recruit a coder
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---Logclosed Fri Jul 08 00:00:52 2011