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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-07-10

---Logopened Sun Jul 10 00:00:55 2011
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02:40<@planetmaker>moin
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03:38<@Terkhen>good morning
03:58<@peter1138>hi
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05:56<Eddi|zuHause>interesting, the game crashes with a segmentation fault if i set an engine to both dualheaded and articulated
05:58<@Terkhen>does it do the same thing in 1.0.x?
05:59<@planetmaker>nice templating in cets, Eddi|zuHause :-)
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: no, but it doesn't seem to be articulated after it's built (only in the build menu there appear two)
06:02<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yeah, but i'm not sure if it's flexible enough in the long term
06:03<@Terkhen>hmm... then the crash is probably caused by my unification code, but the original code was broken to begin with
06:04<@Terkhen>I don't have time to look at it now anyways :)
06:05<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, if it's not possible to do vehicles that are both dualheaded and have articulated vehicles in each head, there is quite a problem with modeling things like the ICE1...
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06:07<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: we can always refactor when it's needed.
06:08<@planetmaker>or add another template for other usages
06:08<@planetmaker>after all there's no template to cover all vehicles which is not as complex as a writing everything everytime ;-)
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>obviously ;)
06:10<Rubidium>the spec says you can't build dualheaded articulated vehicles
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: yes, but a) it shouldn't crash if you try, and b) one can change the specs ;)
06:12<Rubidium>then file a bug report about the crash
06:12<Rubidium>after all, there are various other cases where invalid NewGRFs cause crashes
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>hm, in 1.0 the vehicle seems to be dualheaded, but not articulated
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07:28<Lo>hi
07:28<@Alberth>hi
07:28<Lo>I am a programmer and wanted to ask whether I could contribute to the project
07:29<Lo>who could I ask best?
07:29<@Alberth>here would be fine :)
07:29<Lo>okay, who exactly? :)
07:29<@Alberth>there are several you can ask here :)
07:30<@Alberth>anything in particular you like
07:30<@Alberth>?
07:30<Lo>Yeah, I heard that there was a patch to allow trains on *foreign* tracks in multiplayer
07:30<Lo>But I was said it was to buggy to get into the main branch
07:30<@Alberth>the IS patch (infra structure sharing) patch
07:30<Lo>So I wanted to ask whether I could help
07:31<@Alberth>many patches 'live' at the OpenTTD development forum
07:31<Lo>oh, okay
07:31<SpComb>live and die
07:31<@Alberth>also there is a bugtracker with open issues (bugs.openttd.org)
07:32<@Alberth>and there is lots of software around the NewGRF files
07:32<Lo>oh, I see the post. Is the reason they didn't really *release* it that it is still too buggy?
07:32<@Alberth>Lo: imho not so much buggy as it is conceptually wrong
07:33<@Alberth>most patches there are not made by devs but by users like you
07:33<@Alberth>s/devs/openttd devs/
07:34<Lo>:( But if this is true, than there will never be IS enabled in the "main openttd"?
07:34<@Alberth>patches that are good enough in all ways, are adopted normally
07:34<@Alberth>I very much doubt IS will get there ever, though
07:35<@Alberth>the fundamental problem imho is that I can block your game by just driving an engine on your track, and push 'stop'
07:35<Lo>Is it possible to bring IS ever to openttd (not necessarily the IS of this forum post)
07:35<Lo>?
07:36<Lo>I would really be interested to discuss this detailed, maybe, there can still be found a solution
07:36<@Alberth>a patched openttd version sure, and that can be done today (and probably already exists)
07:36<@Alberth>official openttd: first fix the above problem at least
07:37<@Alberth>eg the Chillcore patchpack is a version of openttd with many patches from the development forum
07:39<@Alberth>Lo: I don't see a good way to fix blocker problems like the above, inherently to the IS patch is that you must trust the other players, which proves not to be true at all times
07:39<Lo>Ah, I see, I guess I'll need to check the forum post more detailed to understand the issues
07:40<Lo>Oh, you mean like if a train gets caught in the foreign net (can not escape anymore) than this is bad for your train?
07:40<@Alberth>yeah, you probably want to read the whole thread, and afaik there was another version before this one, you may want to look into that too
07:40<Lo>So the other players might play unfair...?
07:41<@Alberth>players that want to win will do anything
07:42<@Alberth>and that includes blocking your tracks, and diverting their own while you use it, and no doubt many other messy things you can do
07:42<Lo>Okay, but just for local games... what about if every player could tell #openttd who he/she trusts? We play it mainly in lan games where everyone knows each other...
07:43<@planetmaker>Well, there it's easy, of course
07:44<@Alberth>perhaps that is a way, I don't know
07:44<@planetmaker>The problem is to find a good solution for cases where things are not easy
07:44<@planetmaker>But then... a default along the lines of "don't allow sharing" with options to pull off your own vehicles from other people tracks...
07:45<@planetmaker>but that's already a crucial question on how to solve that in a way that it won't give unfair advantages or penatlties
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07:45<Lo>@planetmaker, sorry, I did not get exactly what you meant by "But then..."
07:47<Lo>Did you mean that it should give a possibility to get your trains back home (on your track net) when it is "caught"?
07:47<Lo>(So that "friendships" would not be necessary anymore)
07:48<@Alberth>you definitely need that, or an evil player can continue to block you
07:50<Lo>Yeah, I see this
07:51<Lo>But I ask myself whether "friend groups" would be a possibility that was not considered. But I am not through all the forum posts...
07:52<SpComb>if playing IS with people you trust is fun, then why rule it out entirely just because some nutcases can grief with it?
07:53<@Alberth>I don't even understand why you don't play coop instead
07:53<SpComb>yeah, I do
07:54<@Alberth>one of the problems is that as soon as you add it, server admins will enable the setting, and we'll get swamped with requests to 'fix' it.
07:55<Lo>Alberth, in coop, you have the same company, right?
07:55<SpComb>that's a valid issue
07:55<@Alberth>Lo: yes
07:55<SpComb>coop requires a lot more control, because you need a unified building/playing style
07:56<SpComb>IS provides more separation for a somewhat more informal game
07:56<SpComb>what's nice about it is that the very basic track-sharing mechanic was, I recall, very simple in terms of code
07:57<@Alberth>how is it different? if you are to share tracks, you need unified style too
07:57<Lo>Style? what can be meant whith that? Electric vs Steam, maybe? :)
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: no, you can more cleanly define separation points, in terms of "from here you can do what you want"
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07:58<@Alberth>Lo: another fun one, I dump your tracks full of my trains so you cannot use the capacity that you need/want
07:58<SpComb>it's easier to define espareate roles for people, and then just cooperate in some places
07:58<@Alberth>Style as in length of blocks, I think
07:59<Lo>@Alberth: Yeah, okay, but if this is a friend of mine, he/she will never do this
07:59<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: but you can do that with the same colour of tracks too, just add a sign or so
07:59<SpComb>but I mean, griefing is an implicit part of multiplayer, and even vanilla trunk still has plenty of problems with grefing, but that's not a reason to disable multiplayer
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>in my solo-multiplayer game i had one company per "country", and connection points where trains can go through
07:59<SpComb>and some of those issues are just ones that arent
07:59<SpComb>and some of those issues are just ones that aren't worth solving using technical solutions
08:00<SpComb>instead, you can just have that admin around to kick the guy
08:00<@Alberth>s/can just/must/ :)
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>that's already true for "normal" servers as well
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08:01<SpComb>Lo: re style, e.g: http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Ruleset
08:02<SpComb>and I do recall building left-to-right track direction switchers in my IS games :)
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08:03<Eddi|zuHause>that is perfectly realistic ;)
08:03<Lo>Okay, if you IS differs, well, still, what's the issue? If my train is maybe to long for some stations, the person which will have blocked stations all the time might ask me to use other trains, and then we'll find an agreement...
08:04<Lo>I still do not see what theoretically makes it difficult to play IS with friends
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>that is absolutely not the issue
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08:37<@planetmaker>Lo: the issue is if you have such trains stopped in your stations and the other not responding. What options should be available?
08:37<@planetmaker>or another person having your trains forced in an ever-lasting circle on his tracks: what to do about that?
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08:39<@Terkhen>it does not even have to be something malicious, someone could place wrong signals near your mainline, blocking it completely
08:39<@Alberth>even your friend may have left the computer to get some coffee
08:39<SpComb>go over to his room and slap him? :)
08:40<@Terkhen>we have to worry about the cases in which that is not possible
08:40<@Terkhen>if someone makes a patch that works only under some circumstances or for certain people, they can always use a patched version
08:41<SpComb>and I posit that the feature would be very useful in some situations in its current form, and trying to solve the rest of the social issues with code wouldn't be worth it
08:41<SpComb>but myes, server admins complaining about "bugs" would be annoying
08:42<SpComb>you'd need a big disclaimer, but nobody cares about those :)
08:44<@Terkhen>as I mentioned, in those cases they can use a patched version... but I'm against adding stuff that will need to be fixed later
08:45<@Terkhen>and yes, the bigger the disclaimer, the more it is ignored :)
08:47<Lo>@planetmaker I see all these issues, but... Would it be difficult for you to just allow this as a (free to enable) feature in LAN-games only?
08:48<Lo>In LAN, you can always complain to your friends about such issues
08:48<Lo>And it might help the IS code to get better if it would be played more frequently, as in LAN games
08:48<SpComb>that would be a kind of pointless restriction
08:49<Lo>Okay, but why?
08:49<@Alberth>LAN can be big too
08:50<Lo>Agreed. But usually, it is small, I think. Plus that admins can dis or en-able IS as an option.
08:50<Lo>I think that would be accepted
08:51<@Alberth>they don't do that, just like they currently don't do game management
08:51<Lo>I mean, actually, LAN is locally restricted. Usually, only in the same building, or maybe in the same university, or suff like that
08:52<@Alberth>but even your friend can mess up accidentally, and you need a way to fix it without going over to his house/room/whatever, imho
08:53<Lo>send him a message via the internet? :)
08:53<Lo>or her
08:53<@Alberth>ie I play with my brother every now and then and he messes up signals. No problem, I can fix that
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09:00<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22645 /trunk/src/newgrf_canal.cpp: -Fix [FS#4678]: GetSection() does not return a LockPart.
09:01-!-Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
09:01<Hyronymus>afternoon
09:02*Hyronymus has a licensing question
09:03<Hyronymus>if you are trying to re-release a set under a license, how much effort do you need to take to get permission from co-authors
09:04<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22646 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Simplify MP_WATER map accessors, esp. for locks and depots. (based on patched by adf88 and michi_cc)
09:04<Hyronymus>and, more specific, can you set a date before a reaction must be in
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09:07<@Alberth>the only answer I can think of is 'enough to convince a court'
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09:08<Hyronymus>hmm
09:08<Rubidium>which would generally be 70? years after the co-authors died?
09:08<@Alberth>setting a date may be possible, but you'd have make sure the person receives the message, at least
09:08*Hyronymus thinks he'll be dead too then
09:09<@Alberth>but no message would not mean he gives permission, I think
09:10<Hyronymus>I was thinking the same
09:10<Hyronymus>but then again, you were clearly specifying a time frame
09:11<@Terkhen>I think that the safest path is getting permission from everyone, and if not possible removing the contributions from authors that cannot be located or don't give permission
09:12<Rubidium>Hyronymus: but you have no guarantee that they received, read and understood the request
09:13<Hyronymus>true, Rubidium
09:13<Hyronymus>but if you do, then it'll be "failsafe"
09:14<Hyronymus>you see, for the Dutch Trainset I can trace down the grpahics artists
09:14<Rubidium>possibly, but... I'm definitely not a lawyer so I can't say it is failsafe
09:14<Hyronymus>every spritesheet included the artists name too
09:14<Hyronymus>but for the code part
09:15<Hyronymus>also, we used GRFmaker: do you have to ask permission from people who provided tools to create something?
09:15<Rubidium>don't know; depends on the case
09:16<Rubidium>e.g. gcc has a clause for some of the optimised code it compiles into binaries
09:16<Rubidium>likewise Microsoft has a clause for statically linking libc
09:17<Rubidium>on the other hand, I doubt a pencil or paper factory has any rights to claim partial copyright on drawings
09:18<Rubidium>though I have no idea about the internals of GRFmaker, i.e. whether they actually add something copyrightable into the GRF
09:20<Hyronymus>k
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09:21<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22647 /trunk/src/water_map.h: -Codechange: Enhance MP_WATER map accessors with assertions. (adf88)
09:23<@planetmaker>Hyronymus: what's the current license of the set?
09:24<Hyronymus>none, tbh
09:24<@planetmaker>urgs. That's bad
09:25<@Terkhen>yes, the spain set is in the same situation
09:25<@planetmaker>then you have no other option trying to get hold of every contributor and getting a 'use whatever license you want' from them ;-)
09:25<@planetmaker>(which is what one often gets, if there's a response at all :S )
09:25<Hyronymus>at the risk of getting kicked...
09:25<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22648 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_industries.cpp newgrf_industrytiles.cpp): -Fix (r22629): Missing 'break'. (thanks michi_cc)
09:25<Hyronymus>IMPORTANT: Please reply to this mail to inform us that you received it properly.
09:25<Hyronymus>Hi <name>,
09:26<Hyronymus>During the development of the Dutch Trainset v1 you have submitted code and/or graphics for usage in the Dutch Trainset. At that time a license under which code and/or art was accepted wasn't specified. Purno and I like to put the Dutch Trainset on the Bananas server for free downloadable OTTD content. If you are unfamilair with what Bananas excatly is, we kindly ask you to read about...
09:26<Hyronymus>...Bananas here first.
09:26<Hyronymus>All content on Bananas must be licensed under a GPL or CC license. Purno and I kindly ask you to tell us under which of the following licenses we may release the Dutch Trainset v1 containing your code and/or art on Bananas:
09:26<Hyronymus>- CC BY-NC-ND v2.0 license, see here for a detailed description of this license
09:26<Hyronymus>- CC-BY-NC-SA v3.0 license, see here for a detailed description of this license
09:26<Hyronymus>- no license whatsoever
09:26<Hyronymus>Purno and I appreciate it if you can inform us on your decision before August 1st 2011. If you have any questions prior to making a decision please contact us.
09:26<@planetmaker>uhm... there's paste services :-)
09:26<Hyronymus>lol
09:26<Hyronymus>where
09:26<Hyronymus>:p
09:26<Hyronymus>oh, pastebin
09:26<@Terkhen>paste.openttdcoop.org or pastebin
09:26<@planetmaker>in your browser ;-)
09:27<@planetmaker>like those, yes
09:27<Hyronymus>makes me wonder where my pastebin plugin went
09:27<@planetmaker>Hyronymus: we cannot host the DutchTrainSet, if you use a ND clause
09:27<@planetmaker>on the DevZone
09:27<@planetmaker>mind that ;-)
09:27<Hyronymus>it never was on the Devzone
09:27<@planetmaker>yes, I know
09:28<Hyronymus>and if we make v2 we start from scratch
09:28<@planetmaker>but... why do you want to put that to a vote?
09:28<@planetmaker>if you get a ND agreement it means you may not touch or modify it anyway. So it's lost
09:28<Hyronymus>lost?
09:28<@planetmaker>you cannot modify it
09:28<@planetmaker>lost for the community to build upon
09:28<Hyronymus>true, but it is a license
09:29<@planetmaker>except "you may distribute the compiled grf" it gives no advantage
09:30<Hyronymus>no, but right now we cannot put the set on bananas
09:30<@planetmaker>ok
09:30<@planetmaker>Honestly I'd not make it an explicit option, though
09:30<@planetmaker>most people simply don't care ;-)
09:30<Hyronymus>lol
09:30<@planetmaker>so don't give them the choice. If they care, they'll know
09:30<frosch123>[15:26] <Hyronymus> All content on Bananas must be licensed under a GPL or CC license. <- since when?
09:31<Hyronymus>since 15:25
09:31<+michi_cc>I'd try to drop the NC clause as well, that non-commercial thing quite a gray area, e.g. is putting it on a compilation CD which is not free already commercial or not?
09:31<@planetmaker>indeed... for bananas you don't need it. If you're author you can distribute it under whatever conditions you want.
09:31<@planetmaker>you only have to accept the TOS
09:32<Ammler> [15:27] <Hyronymus> it never was on the Devzone <-- http://dev.openttdcoop.org/p/dutchtrainset :-P
09:32<Hyronymus>but Purno and I arent the olny authors
09:32<@planetmaker>yes, but it's sufficient that you ARE a author
09:33<Hyronymus>Ammler: we're doing something illegal then :P
09:33<+michi_cc>So strictly speaking NC might even forbid a game magazine to include it on an included CD, which is not very nice if you want the set to get played.
09:33<Ammler>djn put it there
09:33<Hyronymus>hmm, that puts stuff into a different perspective
09:33<@planetmaker>and you can chose for distribution under CC-BY-NC-ND. As people obviously were happy to have the community use it
09:34<@planetmaker>and use something usable for future releases
09:34<Hyronymus>uhuh
09:34<Ammler>it is ok to put a existing project on devzone and "fix" the license after it, just not start a "illegal" project there, IMO
09:38<JVassie>hi Hyronymus
09:39<@Alberth>start the project, and only add graphics that are free
09:39<Hyronymus>hi JVassie
09:39<@Alberth>that way you can start while you wait for answers
09:41<Hyronymus>true
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09:58<JVassie>a new project Hyronymus?
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10:04<andythenorth>I broke rule #1
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10:06<JVassie>queerdom?
10:06<@Terkhen>posting on bros thread?
10:07<andythenorth>that's rule #3
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10:08<andythenorth>rule #1 stay out of suggestions forum
10:08<@planetmaker>:-)
10:09<@planetmaker>sometimes it's fun reading. But task sizes and difficulty are usually underestimated at least two orders of magnitudes there ;-)
10:10<@planetmaker>not to speak of "rewrite game" suggestions ;-)
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10:21<@Terkhen>:)
10:29-!-Purno [~Purno@5ED23A69.cm-7-3a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd
10:30<Purno>Hi all :)
10:32<Purno>Is this thing broken or are you all just very silent?
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
10:33<Purno>Ah thanks :)
10:33<Purno>It's been a while since I"ve been on IRC... lets see how stuff worked again :P
10:33<Purno>Is there any way to poke Hyro? He requested me to be on IRC :P
10:34<frosch123>he filled this channel with content from 15:01 to 15:41
10:34<@planetmaker>:-D
10:35<frosch123>http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd/last?count=200 <- you can find the logs here
10:35<frosch123>then you can just highlight Hyronym*s by typing his nick :)
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>easiest way is to highlight him spelling out his complete name. like typing hyr[tab].
10:36<frosch123>but don't summon daemons, if you cannot deal with them
10:36<Purno>Hyronymus
10:37<Purno>I guess he's AFK, thanks for the help though :P
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>anyway. there are some bits in copyright about how coauthors cannot reject publishing, unless they have very good reasons
10:42<Hyronymus>Purno:
10:42<Hyronymus>forgot to put my sound on
10:43<Hyronymus>(so I didn't hear my highlight warning)
10:44<Purno>Silly you
10:44<Purno>So, ehm... you summoned me
10:44<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22649 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Fix [FS#4670]: Switching from a red to a white highlight (by switching to another tool) without switching the highlight mode (HT_RECT etc.) did not mark the selection dirty.
10:45<Hyronymus>lol
10:45<Hyronymus>summoned me
10:45<Hyronymus>but yeah
10:45<Hyronymus>did you read the PM on the forum
10:46<Purno>yep, you read the reply?
10:46<Hyronymus>no
10:46<Hyronymus>:p
10:46<Purno>slacker :P
10:46<Hyronymus>doesn't matter as it seems
10:46<Purno>nah, I basically said "ok"
10:46<Hyronymus>I think we've been misunderstanding the Bananas requirement
10:47<Hyronymus>it was mentioned earlier that if sufficient that you and me as authors decide to put the set on Bananas
10:47<Hyronymus>albeit under the strict license
10:48<Purno>So basically the first license I suggested should do without asking further permission?
10:48<Hyronymus>and replace if with it is
10:48<Hyronymus>:p
10:48<Hyronymus>yes, that seems to be the case
10:50<Ammler>Hyronymus: in doubt, you can make a custom license
10:50<Purno>So, we've done all this trouble for nothing and the set could've already been uploaded? :P
10:50<frosch123>http://bananas.openttd.org/en/manager/tos/ <- bananas does not care about licenses, it justs asks for certain rights for itself, and somewhat ensures that you have the rights to grant those rights
10:50<Ammler>bananas does basically not care about a valid license
10:50<Hyronymus>custom?
10:50<Ammler>just a valid owner
10:50-!-Markavian [~Markavian@220-245-91-25.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
10:50<Ammler>like the pikka sets
10:50<Hyronymus>The Dutch Trainset team
10:52<@planetmaker>Purno: having a good, community-friendly license never is 'for nothing'.
10:52<@planetmaker>Without a set will die
10:53<Hyronymus>let's see what Pikka's license is like
10:54<Ammler>none
10:54<Ammler>Hyronymus: that is bad example for license
10:54<Hyronymus>oh, it says Custom :P
10:54<Ammler>it is a example how to upload sets without license
10:54<Hyronymus>right
10:54<Hyronymus>what say you, Purno
10:55<Purno>What would be the benefit of a custom license?
10:55<Hyronymus>go "Custom" or CC BY-NC-ND v2.0
10:56<Purno>I see no benefit for Custom yet, so I'd go for the CC license
10:56<Ammler>there is only one useable license, GPL :-)
10:56<Hyronymus>I think it also covers our back, Purno
10:56<Hyronymus>in case co-authors disagree
10:57<JVassie>someone write a spelling check bot, ro a dictionary bot
10:57<JVassie>*or
10:57<JVassie>:o
10:57<JVassie>Purno?
10:57<JVassie>in my irc?
10:57<JVassie>nevah
10:57<Purno>:o
10:57*JVassie is glad bukkit aint here
11:00<JVassie>sigh
11:00<JVassie>find myself working on sunday again
11:00<Hyronymus>Purno: all we need is to add the licence to the grf's
11:01<Ammler>no need, if you don't use custom license
11:02<Hyronymus>then not, but I believe Purno and I prefer the ND
11:02<Ammler>you should just upload to bnanas and use the most restirctive license
11:02<Purno>that'd be the ND right?
11:03<Ammler>and then do as another job licnese the set for future releases
11:03<JVassie>negligent discharge?
11:03<Ammler>which should be preferable gpl
11:03*Hyronymus waits for Ammler to say "or custom"
11:04<Ammler>Hyronymus: just upload the current set and don't care the future license is compatible
11:06<Hyronymus>Ammler: so just upload, specify a licence upon uploading but not adding a licence to the zip
11:06*Hyronymus is getting confused
11:06<Ammler>yep, and decide rather a proper license for future releases
11:06<Ammler>as making a license compatible with both
11:06<@planetmaker>Hyronymus: of course you can chose only a license which your contributors allow you to chose
11:07<@planetmaker>but something like cc-by-nc-nd for an existing released set should cover that
11:07<@planetmaker>for any future release: choose a different, a well-suitable license
11:07<@planetmaker>every release can entirely be different. In principle
11:07<JVassie>gimme a G
11:07<JVassie>gimme a P
11:07<JVassie>gimme an L
11:07<@planetmaker>2
11:07<@planetmaker>:-P
11:07<Purno>Oh stop the GPL fanboying :P
11:07*Hyronymus trouts JVassie
11:07*JVassie removes Punro forcibly
11:08<Ammler>you don't need to ask Purno for GPL, he already agreed ;-)
11:08<Hyronymus>it's about being comfortable with something, Ammler
11:08<Purno>And it's not answering the question we have now :P
11:08<JVassie>"All my graphics are licensed under GPL."
11:08<@planetmaker>JVassie: yes... that'd be best... but people... are not all that easy-going
11:08<JVassie>whos the fanboi now?
11:08<JVassie>:/
11:08<Purno>you both are :P
11:09<@planetmaker>Purno: on the contrary. This issue is only an issue as people do NOT care
11:09*Hyronymus points Purno to the private channel
11:09<@planetmaker>and chose NO license
11:09<@planetmaker>like CC-BY or GPL
11:09<@planetmaker>when that decision would have been made years ago - we'd not have any of those discussions or uncertainties
11:09<JVassie>oh the benefits of hindsight..
11:09<JVassie>or foresight
11:09<@planetmaker>:-)
11:09<@planetmaker>quite
11:09<Ammler>Hyronymus: your issue is that you should split upload current set to bananas and license for future work/releases
11:10<@planetmaker>but the licenses were around and people knew already then
11:10<JVassie>back to PHP
11:10<@planetmaker>but people still don't care
11:10*JVassie sighs
11:10<@planetmaker>like modern station set.
11:10<@planetmaker>disgusting attitude :S
11:11<Ammler>well, the main issue is that bananas doesn't care
11:11<Ammler>so you need always again to do the work and convince people to make license
11:15<@planetmaker>hm...
11:17<Hyronymus>files have to be tar I assume?
11:18<Ammler>"You will only upload content of which you are (one of) the original author(s)." -> "You will only upload content with valid license." and you are done :-)
11:19<Ammler>Hyronymus: or zip
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: who defines what an "invalid" license is?
11:19<Ammler>it does repack anyway
11:19<Hyronymus>it doesn't accept zip :s
11:19<Hyronymus>This type is not yet supported.
11:19<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: that cuold be listed
11:21<Hyronymus>why....
11:21<Hyronymus>Unhandled Exception
11:21<Hyronymus>An unhandled exception was thrown by the application.
11:22*Hyronymus fetches coffee
11:22<@Terkhen>IIRC it only accepts tar
11:23<Ammler>Terkhen: it allows uploading the zps from DevZone
11:23<Ammler>DevZone does not make tar
11:23<@Terkhen>ok
11:23<@planetmaker>bananas accepts zips just fine
11:23*planetmaker reads slowly
11:23-!-Lycrauss [~Lycrauss@dslb-178-005-186-152.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
11:23<@planetmaker>today
11:23<Lycrauss>hello guys! i have a question
11:24<@planetmaker>hi
11:24<@planetmaker>@get topic -3
11:24<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Error: 'topic' is not a valid topic number.
11:24-!-Purno [~Purno@5ED23A69.cm-7-3a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!]
11:24<@planetmaker>;-)
11:24<@planetmaker>@topic get -3
11:24<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
11:24<@planetmaker>there ;-)
11:24<JVassie>lol
11:25<Lycrauss>in version 0.3.6 there is this fix:Only a server can rename a town in a MP game
11:25<JVassie>@get 41656
11:25<@DorpsGek>JVassie: Error: '41655' is not a valid topic number.
11:25<JVassie>LIES
11:25<JVassie>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=41656
11:25<JVassie>see
11:25<Lycrauss>is there a way to change that?
11:25<JVassie>oh wait
11:25<JVassie>wha
11:25<@Terkhen>are you really playing with version 0.3.6?
11:26<JVassie><JVassie> @get 41656
11:26<JVassie><DorpsGek> JVassie: Error: '41655' is not a valid topic number.
11:26<Lycrauss>no
11:26<JVassie>errr
11:26<Lycrauss>1.1.1 but the fix is obiously still in there^^
11:26<Lycrauss>im always playing wit hmy buddy and we would like to rename the citis, both of us
11:27<@Terkhen>only the server can rename towns, because otherwise, since renaming is free, griefers would connect to online games and rename every town to whatever
11:27<@Terkhen>to my knowledge there is no way to enable renaming of towns for all players
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>but there is no reason to rigorously forbid it either...
11:28<@planetmaker>yup, that's the reason afaik
11:28<Lycrauss>no way to make a client "op" or "admin" or something?
11:28<Hyronymus>I keep getting the error
11:28<Hyronymus>and zips fail
11:28<Hyronymus>am using 7zip to create a tar
11:29<@planetmaker>try without tar...
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>Hyronymus: made sure the tar is _uncompressed_?
11:29<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: yes, it could be changed
11:29<Hyronymus>checking Eddi|zuHause
11:30<@Terkhen>hmmm... I suppose that it is not possible to rename stuff using rcon, but I'm not sure
11:30*JVassie rars
11:30<@Terkhen>sounds quite unlikely
11:31*SpComb unzips
11:31<Hyronymus>it's uncompressed, Eddi|zuHause
11:31<Hyronymus>can't even choose a compression method
11:31<__ln__>http://asset.soup.io/asset/0453/8747_0991_800.png
11:32<SpComb>__ln__: oldhat
11:33<Lycrauss>so, no chance for clientside-town-renaming at the moment?
11:33<@Terkhen>Lycrauss: no, sorry
11:33<Lycrauss>well, ok, thanks for the help!
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: you realize this is 2 years old?
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11:34<__ln__>nope
11:35<@Alberth>lol, that's r1377 :D
11:35<__ln__>a lot of people like things that are even older than 2 years of age.
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>how dare they!
11:36<@Alberth>date: Tue Jan 04 19:49:44 2005 +0000 <-- you can say that again :)
11:37<Hyronymus>ok, what ZIP settings do I need for a ZIP to be accepted?
11:38-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
11:38<@planetmaker>sometimes bananas has issues... but the error description so far was not concise enough to know ;-)
11:40<Hyronymus>I can't help that
11:40<Hyronymus>all I get is "This type is not yet supported."
11:40<Hyronymus>yet gives me some hope that 1 day it'll be supported fortunately
11:41<@planetmaker>Did you try another thing than 7zip?
11:42<Hyronymus>no
11:42<Hyronymus>but I started with the ZIP from the Dutch sets page
11:42<Hyronymus>that was made some years ago
11:43<Hyronymus>wtf
11:43<Hyronymus>sorry but really
11:43<Zuu>I always use7zip to make my tar files.
11:43<Zuu>use 7zip*
11:43<Hyronymus>can someone please write at the upload page that a grf file is supposed to be uploaded?
11:44<@planetmaker>Zuu: but maybe you have different settings... 7zip is not known for having no config possibilities ;-)
11:48<Ammler>DevZone uses 7zip too
11:53<@planetmaker>then it should be no issue. usually
11:53<@planetmaker>well... the set seems to be uploaded?
11:53<@planetmaker>so... the issue seems solved
11:57<Hyronymus>yes, because a ZIP wasn't required
11:58<Hyronymus>it only accepts grf's it seems
11:58<Hyronymus>quite curious how other sets get their licence included then though
12:02<@planetmaker>Hyronymus: it surely accepts zips which include all allowed files (but no additional ones)
12:03<frosch123>if you only need to upload a grf (without custom license or readme), you can iirc directly upload the grf
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12:08<@planetmaker>yes, one can
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13:12<andythenorth>bah
13:12<andythenorth>maybe it's time for a break from the game
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>which of the games?
13:12<andythenorth>the game of making things for ottd
13:14<andythenorth>I am increasingly just wanting to flame people - even one's I like
13:14<andythenorth>-'
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13:16<@planetmaker>which posting is causing your distress this time, andythenorth ?
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13:17<andythenorth>towboats
13:17<andythenorth>but mostly I think the issue is that I'm working on things out of obligation
13:17<andythenorth>not for fun
13:18<@planetmaker>hm :S
13:18<@planetmaker>not fun
13:18<andythenorth>I've committed to quite a lot :P
13:19<@planetmaker>hehe, yeah
13:19<@planetmaker>possibly the p1kka attitude helps there: just work on it... but there's no timeline ;-)
13:20<andythenorth>I have no timeline :)
13:20<andythenorth>the p1kka attitude I need to cultivate is a teflon attitude to player feedback :P
13:20<@planetmaker>:-)
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13:21<@planetmaker>Player feedback is good. But you should realise the stuff _you_ find interesting
13:21<frosch123>Hyr|dinner: the web link for the dutch trainset points to a download location. that is not exactly useful, as bananas already supplies a download. maybe you should link to some homepage or the forum thread instead?
13:22<andythenorth>I should get my sense of humour back. It's lacking :P
13:24<andythenorth>if I start flaming people, I'll look like an idiot :|
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13:26<@Alberth>you are free to send me a PM if you like
13:27<@Alberth>planetmaker: feedback is good, in a positive way imho, ie 'he, you can improve it in this and this way' rather 'that's wrong'
13:27<@Alberth>+than
13:27<frosch123>like "he, you can improve it by removing it" ?
13:28<@planetmaker>Alberth: sure, you're right
13:28*andythenorth favoured the dalestan effect
13:28<@planetmaker>Constructive feedback
13:29<andythenorth>when dalestan was around, the forums had there was a higher standard of....well everything really
13:29<@planetmaker>which works along the lines of the intention of a project :-)
13:29<@planetmaker>andythenorth: the standard wasn't different really
13:29<andythenorth>objectively probably not :)
13:30<@planetmaker>still his knife-edge postings and replies are in a way nice to read
13:30-!-Hyr|dinner is now known as Hyronymus
13:30<andythenorth>it makes it appear better :)
13:31<andythenorth>when tested, people report boy babies cry louder than girl babies
13:31<andythenorth>despite decibels being same
13:31<@planetmaker>really? :-)
13:32<frosch123>my 4 year old nice definitely cries louder than my 0.5 year old nephew
13:32<@planetmaker>:-)
13:32<Rubidium>dB or dB(A) ?
13:32<frosch123>*niece
13:34<andythenorth>this is according to 'science by bbc news website'
13:34<JVassie>LOUDER
13:34<andythenorth>it's hardly Nature magazine :P
13:34<andythenorth>anyway, with dalestan around, forums were probably objective same, but seemed better :)
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13:39<JVassie>what happened to dalestan?
13:39<JVassie>andythenorth?
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13:39<Rubidium>AFAIK: lack of time + loss of interest
13:39<JVassie>oh
13:40<@planetmaker>he at least managed to hand over the important projects of his :-)
13:40<frosch123>he did about 3 posts in the last year
13:41<andythenorth>speaking of constructive feedback....
13:41<andythenorth>...rivers
13:41<Hyronymus>he's missed
13:41<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/better_shores_12.png
13:41<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/better_shores_11.png
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13:42<__ln__>maybe you need a shore leave
13:42<andythenorth>in the _11.png - the ones with dots I think shouldn't exist
13:42<andythenorth>I could draw them, but I'll complain :P
13:43<andythenorth>it's only 6 more sprites
13:43<andythenorth>but they're dumb :P
13:44<andythenorth>Rubidium: probably you get final say?
13:44<Rubidium>oh I do?
13:44<andythenorth>I reckon
13:45<andythenorth>seeing as it was your request
13:46*andythenorth is reading about free monoids, and wishes he was better at maths
13:46<Rubidium>okay... from the center tile 2 to the south east. The border at the NE side probably needs to be slightly darker; now it seems brighter as if it's banking up towards the river instead of down
13:46<@planetmaker>monoids?
13:47<frosch123>andythenorth: draw some kind of tunnel entrance at the top edges for some kind of source
13:47<frosch123>rivers starting on a hill is fine, isn't it?
13:48<andythenorth>so what should a river source look like anyway?
13:48<frosch123>and sewer/drain at the bottom
13:48<andythenorth>and should rivers narrow for a few tiles?
13:48<andythenorth>at the end
13:48<andythenorth>unnavigable
13:49<frosch123>andythenorth: some stones, with the joining between them
13:50<andythenorth>Rubidium: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/this_one.png ??
13:50<andythenorth>^ the one that looks like it's banking up?
13:50<Rubidium>no, one more to the SE
13:51<andythenorth>ok understood
13:51<Rubidium>the edge seems lighter than the grass tile next to it, whereas on the one you circled the grass tile next to it is brighter
13:51<andythenorth>yeah it's shaded wrong
13:51<andythenorth>I'll fix
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13:53<andythenorth>I'll draw the silly slope peices as springs / sinkholes
13:53<andythenorth>I haven't redrawn most of the small corner pieces, they looked ok
13:55*andythenorth hopes other climates get done with flood-fill :P
13:55<andythenorth>can someone point out in the FISH thread why the towboat can't be drawn as they all want it?
13:55<andythenorth>the answer should be obvious
13:56<andythenorth>here's the version they all hate: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=146348
13:58<andythenorth>ach nvm
13:58<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=146437
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14:00<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=146439
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14:04<Ammler>looks nice, the glitch is quite obvious and not really that bad
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14:05<andythenorth>Ammler: looks ok yes?
14:05<andythenorth>and if it was another barge longer?
14:05<andythenorth>or even 9 barges, as suggested?
14:05<Ammler>how does that matter
14:06<Ammler>just don't make a screenshot in that case
14:06<andythenorth>already it clips buildings
14:06<andythenorth>maybe it's actually just a bad idea and should be removed
14:06<Ammler>as long as there are not articulated ships, you can't avoid it
14:07<@Alberth>you just need to have a wider canal
14:07<andythenorth>so I should just do it as they want? 1 barge central, 2 barges, 2 barges, 1 tugboat central
14:07<andythenorth>as it's clipping anyway
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14:08<@Alberth>is there one that makes you happy?
14:09<andythenorth>this is mockup of length if I do it as requested: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/extra_barge.png
14:10<Ammler>do you like it?
14:10<@Alberth>although it may be better to let it rest for a few months, it is quite impossible to make up your mind objectively now, I think
14:10<andythenorth>doing it that long - it will flicker a lot as it fights the sprite sorter
14:10<andythenorth>but apparently that's desired
14:10<Wolf01>evening
14:11<andythenorth>hello Wolf01
14:11<@Alberth>I like the 2, 2, 1+boat version better (that you originally wanted)
14:12<andythenorth>the desired 9 barge version would look like this: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/9_barge.png
14:12<andythenorth>and would clip out of canals, locks, rivers and ship depots
14:13<andythenorth>it would however be realistic
14:14<@Alberth>all too big imho
14:14<@Alberth>you are aware I don't care about realism, right? :)
14:15<@Alberth>if you want a balanced one, 2,2,boat would be it, I think
14:15<@Alberth>or do you want larger ones?
14:23<andythenorth>for gameplay reason, I want a large one
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14:23<andythenorth>it's a question of capacity + range of refits
14:24<andythenorth>1,2,3,4,5 barges with ~200t ea
14:24<andythenorth>makes a nice ship
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14:29<@Alberth>but bigger than 5 barges?
14:30<@Alberth>if not, then you first design looks fine to me
14:30<@Alberth>*your
14:31<@Alberth>you can make one with 4 barges for people that worry about steering abilities of the captain ;)
14:31<andythenorth>not bigger than 5
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14:32<@Alberth>I like that, bigger just gets too bulky imho
14:33<andythenorth>Rubidium: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/better_shores_12a.png
14:33<andythenorth>fix of tile slope
14:33<andythenorth>fixed sufficiently?
14:44<andythenorth>what is gained by these being different sprites? http://tt-foundry.com/misc/duplicate_shores.png
14:44<andythenorth>whoever designed river spec was basically setting them up to never get drawn :P
14:44<andythenorth>it's way too anal
14:45<andythenorth>way / slightly /s
14:47<frosch123>andythenorth: using different sprites near shore is something opengfx wanted
14:47<frosch123>river specs do not need different graphics
14:47<andythenorth>there are at least 4 more sprites I can't identify a use for
14:47<frosch123>however, ogfx uses a varaction2 to check the height and use different sprites
14:47<frosch123>so, i guess those sprites should just be the same
14:47<andythenorth>ah hah
14:48<frosch123>no need to draw them twice, the nfo can reference the same :)
14:48<andythenorth>hmm
14:48<andythenorth>I should recode this grf :P
14:48<andythenorth>but that wasn't part of the plan
14:48<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/water-features
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15:48<Wolf01>'night
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16:04<Eddi|zuHause>http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/178/googlewennich.jpg
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16:18<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22650 /branches/1.1/ (11 files in 3 dirs):
16:18<CIA-2>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
16:18<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: When changing difficulty settings over the network, do not just reopen the difficulty window if any game options window is opened; instead invalidate them properly [FS#4653] (r22618, r22617)
16:18<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] If callback 33 returns a value out of range, no sound effect shall be played [FS#4656] (r22614)
16:18<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: Use rotated heightmap sizes for reporting scaling problems [FS#4663] (r22608)
16:18<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: No client error packet was sent to the admin bots [FS#4585] (r22384)
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16:22<frosch123>night
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16:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22651 /branches/1.1/ (8 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
16:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
16:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: When closing an AI company the local player cheated to, we need to cheat him to another company [FS#4654] (r22624, r22623)
16:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: When closing down companies their shares in other companies must be sold even if share trading is disabled at that point of time (r22622)
16:23-!-Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: When asking the user to confirm an unsafe unpausing, there is no need to execute a command if 'no' is choosed. This also prevents crashing when clicking unpause while the confirm window is shown (r22621)
16:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: Enforce refit orders to be 'always go to depot' orders; service-only and stop-in-depot orders make no sense with refitting [FS#4651] (r22620)
16:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: Consider the size of the vehicle sprite for the lineheight in the company
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16:26<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22652 /branches/1.1/ (10 files in 4 dirs):
16:26<CIA-2>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
16:26<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Implement variables 25 and 7F for railtypes (r22633)
16:26<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Additional text in fund industry window is NewGRF supplied and thus should have a default colour (r22631)
16:26<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: Also initialise _old_vds with newgame settings; TTD savegames do not contain these settings [FS#4622] (r22626)
16:26<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not zero the orders of disaster vehicles when converting savegames [FS#4642] (r22625)
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16:29<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22653 /branches/1.1/ (18 files in 2 dirs):
16:29<CIA-2>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
16:29<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Disable the 'set parameters' button in the NewGRF GUI, if the GRF specifies to have no parameters and one would not be able to set any parameters anyway (r22642)
16:29<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: Keep the previous owner of the upper and lower lock parts if they are built on existing water (r22638)
16:29<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Airports should not expose the tile specific random bits of the north tile. Only airport tiles should access those (r22636)
16:29<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Correctly reseed random bits of industries and industry tiles (r22635, r22634)
16:35<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22654 /branches/1.1/ (39 files in 3 dirs):
16:35<CIA-2>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
16:35<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: Switching from a red to a white highlight (by switching to another tool) without switching the highlight mode (HT_RECT etc.) did not mark the selection dirty [FS#4670] (r22649)
16:35<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Parameters from NewGRFs were not properly parsed in all cases [FS#4599] (r22648, r22630, r22629, r22628, r22627)
16:35<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: GetSection() does not return a LockPart [FS#4678] (r22645)
16:35<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Disallow building NewObjects on water tiles owned by another company (r22643)
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16:58<@planetmaker>good night
17:05<@Terkhen>good night
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21:32<Eddi|zuHause>hm... forum is fairly unresponsive
21:45<fjb>It is sleeping.
22:00<Eddi|zuHause>sleep is overrated
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22:07<hibby>Sleep is for the week
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22:35*fjb needs a week of sleep.
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---Logclosed Mon Jul 11 00:00:57 2011