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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-07-13

---Logopened Wed Jul 13 00:00:32 2011
00:24-!-Darkdjinn [~Darkdjinn@h49n3-vn-a11.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #openttd
00:24<Darkdjinn>hello there
00:24<Darkdjinn>i would like to ask how i can setup a server on the public list to show up if i am behind a router? what i shall unlock and so on to make it work
00:32<@peter1138>!ports
00:33<@peter1138>hmm
00:33<@peter1138>well, 3979
00:35-!-Sunmannus [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
00:39<Darkdjinn>ok
00:39<Darkdjinn>when i open that port i still not see my hosted game in the public server list somehow
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01:01<Rubidium>in 99% of the cases you won't be able to connect to a forwarded port on your external IP
01:02<Rubidium>if it shows up on the list on servers.openttd.org it's most likely working
01:04<hibby>i was wondering - is there room for more detailed data output from servers? I might take a look at tcl/ap+
01:04<hibby>I'd love some rrdtool action on company data
01:04<hibby>and be able to log scores / values to databases for a overall results table from Hibserv
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02:20<Terkhen>good morning
02:20<Terkhen>hibby: http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/docs/admin_network.txt
02:24<hibby>Terkhen: nice one, thanks
02:28-!-andythenorth [~Andy@87.113.139.15] has joined #openttd
02:28<andythenorth>chuggington grf for openttd?
02:28<andythenorth>we'd get sued to ^^^^ that high
02:28<andythenorth>:P
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03:14<dihedral>good morning
03:14<dihedral>i still hate postgres :-D
03:14<dihedral>anybody familiar with the company strawberries in nl ?
03:41-!-LordAro [~kvirc@88-110-149-126.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd
03:45<LordAro>mornings
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04:01<Eddi|zuHause>the Siebenschläfer (~ 'ground hog') totally lied this year...
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06:45<LordAro>Loud Noises!
06:50<Eddi|zuHause># 'Cause there's a side to you, That I never knew, never knew
06:50<Eddi|zuHause># All the things you'd say, They were never true, never true
06:50<Eddi|zuHause># And the games you'd play, You would always win, always win
06:50<Eddi|zuHause># But I set fire to the rain, Watched it pour as I touched your face
06:50<Eddi|zuHause># Let it burn while I cried, 'Cause I heard it screaming out your name, your name
07:01<@peter1138>sure?
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>at least that was the loudest noise around here ;)
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07:17<pikka>scuddles you nong
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07:21<@peter1138>nong!
07:23-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.168.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:30<pikka>ning nang bong
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>i think you have been in southeast asia for too long
07:31<pikka>about 24 hours, eddi
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>that's exactly what i mean ;)
07:32<pikka>well I hope not because I've 8 days to go... :P
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>hm, the bad weather has one advantage: there's not so many monitor-destroying insects
07:36<@peter1138>insects have been destroying your monitors?
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>yes, they're small enough to fit inbetween the layers, so they crawl on your visible screen area, but you can't remove them
07:38<@peter1138>only if it's not been built properly
07:39<@peter1138>alas... :S
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>nothing gets built "properly" nowadays.
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>everything is built so it breaks exactly 3 days after warranty expires
07:53<Scuddles>hello pikka
07:53<pikka>hello scuddles
07:53<pikka>I sure saw a lot of singaporekids today
07:53<Scuddles>D:
07:54<Scuddles>Did you ask locals for directions like a proper gaijin?
07:54<pikka>they were on some kind of school excursion to the civilian war memorial
07:55<Scuddles>You walked between the pillars didn't you
07:55<Scuddles>And laughed at the sign which said "jepun"
07:55<pikka>also we saw some kind of.military drill with many rifle firings
07:55<pikka>no I did not laugh at jepun
07:55<Scuddles>I am getting excited
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>what's a "jepun" and what's to laugh about it?
07:55<Scuddles>It is malay for Japan, and they spell things strangely all the time
07:56<Scuddles>Especially telefon and motosikal
07:56<pikka>I noticed that there sure are a lot of white people in advertisements here
07:56<pikka>even more so than in japan
07:57<Scuddles>raple were they old rifles or the silly new bullpup one
07:57<pikka>I dunno we were on top of the esplanade, they were too far away.
07:58<Scuddles>pruplething what are tou doing on the esplanade get off from there
07:59<Scuddles>Anywoy, national day is 9th of August and they are most likely practicing, if you looked in the sky there were vapor trails or something from plens
07:59<pikka>we were looking at the marina sands and the merlion
07:59<pikka>and I see, how rare.
07:59<Scuddles>public spitting is rude
07:59<pikka>you're rude
07:59<Scuddles>there rude
08:00<pikka>your banana's
08:00<Scuddles>but
08:00<Scuddles>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99y1DCNwv8E
08:00<Scuddles>SORRY THIS IS A BIT OLD
08:01<pikka>nice airshoots
08:01<pikka>you should play more 2fort
08:02<pikka>anyway
08:02<pikka>we haven't been to simlim square yet
08:02<pikka>slimjim square
08:03<Scuddles>There's also that sungei road near that area
08:03<Scuddles>You should buy a huge telescope for 3 dollars like me
08:03<Scuddles>Or stolen items from the military like a load bearing vest D:
08:03<pikka>you're huge telescope
08:03<Scuddles>Or an axe
08:04<pikka>I think I might have trouble on the plane with an axe
08:06<pikka>it is a dinnertime I should think
08:09<Scuddles>pruplething I am sad, I seem to have not recorded two nice hairshots
08:09<pikka>such is life
08:09<Scuddles>on the 2forts
08:09<Scuddles>also like I said I am off from the schoolz early tomorrow
08:10<pikka>ew
08:10<pikka>well tomorrow we have plans already
08:10<Scuddles>your ewe
08:10<Scuddles>IS IT
08:10<pikka>you should show us around sim lim next week perhaps
08:11<Scuddles>I'll show you around
08:11<pikka>it is not my ewe
08:11<Scuddles>a roundabout or something
08:11<pikka>o
08:11<pikka>how round
08:11<Scuddles>Did you get confused by the locals speaking their singlishes?
08:11<pikka>not dramatically
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>someone explain me please why i suddenly have a craving for Skittles :p
08:12<pikka>tasty rainbows
08:12<pikka>there's still time for confusion though
08:14-!-Scuddles is now known as Tabitha_Catherine
08:14<Tabitha_Catherine>now you have a craving for tables, deal with them
08:15<pikka>hmm I guess I shall wear no hat as it is dark
08:15<pikka>goodbye for now gentlemen
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08:25<__ln__>https://plus.google.com/107276867598285658079/posts/KcJXYamu12X
08:26-!-sla_ro|master is now known as sla_ro|afk
08:26<@peter1138>google+ sure uses snappy urls
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>and i thought using perfectly rendered mathematical equations as captcha was already a bad idea...
08:28<@planetmaker>hello
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>i love how google says konqueror is not a "modern browser"
08:28<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: xcf is the gimp native format
08:28<@planetmaker>(or did I mangle letters?)
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08:45<@planetmaker>hm... nice. Seems you wrote a vehicle generation script, Eddi|zuHause ? :-)
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, something like that ;)
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>is there an e-mail notification on commit somewhere?
08:45<@planetmaker>join the #openttdcoop.devzone ;-)
08:46<@planetmaker>there's in-channel notification
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>that's not what i asked ;)
08:46<@planetmaker>and... once you subscribe to a topic ("watch") you get e-mail notification, too
08:46<@planetmaker>topic = issue
08:46<@planetmaker>you might need to activate that in your DevZone settings.
08:47<@planetmaker>my account -> email notifications -> only things I watch or am involved in
08:47-!-Tabitha_Catherine [~notme@cm40.epsilon82.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:48<@planetmaker>you could, of course also choose "for any event in all my projects"
08:48<@planetmaker>but... at least that's not for me or I get a notification about 50% of devzone activity :-P
08:51<@planetmaker>Eddi: maybe it is nicer to use , or ; separated tables and ignore leading / trailing white space?. It might align better in a text editor.
08:51<@Belugas>hello
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: no, because that forbids us from using these characters in the fields
08:53<@planetmaker>:-) it would, yes.
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>i used "export as text" in the google menu, which gave a tab-separated file. since we're really unlikely to use tabs anywhere, that seemed like a good idea
08:54<@planetmaker>ok, so it's a simple action there... I wonder how transparent changes will look like when we re-export an updated version
08:55<@planetmaker>oh, btw, I hope you didn't mind that I prod oberhümer to get on drawing once he talked about DBSet-compatible sets needed ;-)
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>hehe :)
08:56<@planetmaker>you should have that (2nd mail) also in your inbox to explain the scales of this set to him - though michi_cc answered already, too
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i read that message, but didn't know what you expect me to say
08:58-!-glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:ede0:805e:56db:81d2] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:58<@planetmaker>a brief explanation how you got to the 1-tile wagon length... I was not quite sure about the scale-thoughts which you initially had and thought you could better communicate that ;-)
09:00<@planetmaker>but with 2px / m which he suggests I actually come quite close to a 1-tile per wagon length... anyway :-)
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>the - view is a bad one to define scale
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>the / and \ views are the important ones
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>the - view is stretched
09:04<@planetmaker>:-) yep
09:04<@planetmaker>though ideally it wouldn't matter.
09:05<@planetmaker>but... well, it does.
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>we could also do euclidically-correct - view, with the disadvantage of having space in diagonally travelling vehicles or the depot view
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>might be easier with rendered shapes this way
09:09<@planetmaker>I'm undecided. Might be an option. Rendering with post-processing / touching might be a good option given the amount of sprites which we need.
09:15<Darkdjinn> i got a small question
09:16<Darkdjinn>is it any possibility to up or low lands near a city without ruin the Reputation of the local authority
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>yes. don't destroy trees in the process ;)
09:16<Darkdjinn>well
09:17-!-supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd
09:17<Darkdjinn>its nearly impossible if you make space or area clean for train/plane field
09:17<@planetmaker>build stations first. Then tracks
09:17<Darkdjinn>i had outstanding and it went to terrible poor in just 1 sec on a very small bombing
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>build a bus service in the city first. each bus arrival will increase your rating
09:17<Darkdjinn>bus i know but i ment plane air field
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>with enough busses, you quickly get the rating up again
09:18<Darkdjinn>and which trains can carry more then 7.0 meter long trains
09:18<Darkdjinn>monorail has none
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>and then there's the tree-cheat.
09:18<Darkdjinn>what is the tree cheat ?
09:18<Darkdjinn>and how to make mammoth long trains
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>the maximum train length is in the advanced settings
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>default is 7 tiles, may be set up to 64 tiles
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>max station size is default 12, may also be set up to 64
09:19<Darkdjinn>aha where in advanced swettings do you see the train limitations
09:20<Darkdjinn>i found it
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>in vehicles, i suppose
09:21<Darkdjinn>but as for the reputation cheat trees
09:21<Darkdjinn>you mentioned
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>vehicles->trains->maximum train length
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes. there is a flaw in the game mechanics regarding trees
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>when your rating is already appalling, you still can remove trees, without further reducing your rating
09:22<Darkdjinn>yeah ok how to make reputation to be top again
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>then you can build enough trees to get your rating up to medium again
09:22<Darkdjinn>aha ok
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>each tree placed on an empty tile (that does not have a tree already) will increase your rating
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>up to some limit
09:23-!-keky___ [~stefan@p5098b65a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>so if you can remove 100 trees before your rating is appalling, you can remove another 500 trees, and then plant 600 trees, which will give you more than you lost for the 100 trees
09:45<__ln__>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14135523
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>that news is sooo yesterday.
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.vol.at/nudelsieb-als-religioese-kopfbedeckung-in-fuehrerschein-genehmigt/news-20110712-03443869 <- proof that this news is from yesterday.
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>(imagine a photo of me holding up yesterday's newspaper)
09:56*__ln__ imagining *
09:59<Darkdjinn>eddi how long time does it take about before the rating is back when you have planted the trees ?
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_Mechanics#Local_authority_rating
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10:25<pikka>oh
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>pe
10:30<pikka>te
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11:03<LordAro>umm, help? http://pastebin.com/4zet2DJ9 (mingw)
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>missing some library?
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>have you installed useful.zip?
11:04<V453000>might be useful :D
11:05<glx>useful.zip is for MSVC
11:05<__ln__>i would assume strcmp comes with mingw or windows
11:06<glx>weird, strcmp and error are available
11:06<__ln__>glx: so will OpenTTD be ported to HTML5 when Windows 8 comes out? :)
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>then there's something hopelessly wrong with your mingw setup
11:06<LordAro>so a reinstallation of mingw is required? again...
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: same way as it will be ported to C#, flash, python, ...
11:06<glx>try make clean first
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>does ./configure say anything odd?
11:07<glx>configure doesn't check that IIRC
11:07-!-Westie [~westie@raptor.typefish.co.uk] has joined #openttd
11:08<dihedral>i hate selinux
11:08<LordAro>ah! make clean fixed it :) dunno what was wrong though...
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>"checking whether build environment is sane - Build environment is grinning and holding a spatula. Guess not."
11:09<LordAro>dihedral: you seem to hate most forms of linux right now...
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: aren't you running out of linuxes these days? :p
11:10<glx>LordAro: on some circonstances a file is not recompiled when it should have been
11:10<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: i think that message should be used..everywhere! even when the build environment is fine :)
11:11<glx>always try make clean first in this case :)
11:11<LordAro>i'll try to remember that next time
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>http://xkcd.com/371/
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11:17<Purno>Heya guys, quick question, does OpenTTD have some feature to place specific objects anywhere you want, kinda like landscaping or simcity building style, if you get what I mean :P
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>NewObjects, yes
11:19<Purno>Awesome, how do I access it?
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>there's supposed to be a transmitter icon in the landscaping toolbar, probably only if you loaded an object grf
11:21<Purno>Ah, I seem to have the NewObjects UI but no GRFs loaded.
11:21<Purno>I'm totally new to NewObjects, are there certain popular GRFs for it?
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>i'd almost suggest MariCo, but it's kinda difficult to find...
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise you can check the ingame download for "object"
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>http://ttdpatch.de/download.html <-- MariCo is found here
11:23<Purno>aye, seems I've got two other NewObjects sets
11:24<Purno>thanks, gotta go now for dinner, but will be back. Gotta figure out where OpenTTD stores its NewGRFs xD ttyl
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>in "my documents\openttd" or in "~/.openttd", depending on your OS flavour
11:27<LordAro>if i have a function in NewGRFReadmeWindow struct, how do i call it from NewGRFWindow struct?
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>by casting the pointer
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>or what do you mean?
11:31<LordAro>i have a bool function, GrfHasReadme, in the struct of NewGRFReadmeWindow, but i want to use/call it in the struct of NewGRFWindow. how?
11:31<LordAro>that better?
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>why must that function be in the struct at all?
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11:32<Eddi|zuHause>is that not better near the code that tracks the newgrfs?
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. where it scans for grfs, and records their md5sum etc.
11:33<LordAro>maybe... where is that? :)
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>how should i know...
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>i have by far not seen all sections of code yet
11:33<LordAro>you've spent more time around the code than me
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>grep is your friend
11:34<LordAro>you more likely to have than me
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>ScanNewGRFFiles() may be a start
11:35<@planetmaker>it sounds a flag which could be set upon scanning the NewGRF list indeed
11:35<@planetmaker>+like
11:36<@planetmaker>each tar file is read at that stage anyway.
11:38<LordAro>that was my idea too, but Alberth had other ideas :)
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>details?
11:43<LordAro>well, he gave me the function, and said to put it in the struct (previously mentioned) but then i guess it probably was intended to be moved at some point
11:43<LordAro>i'm still a bit lost as to where to look btw
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>the standard approach is "grep FunctionName src/*"
11:45<LordAro>i don't know what function name to look for, really (ScanNewGRFFiles() didn't really help, but that's probably because i'm useless :)
11:45<LordAro>)
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>on first glance, i'd say FillGRFDetails in src/newgrf_config.cpp
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11:59<Purno>If my OpenTTD doesn't have the data folder for NewGRF files, is that bad sign or can I just create it? :P
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12:02<Purno>nvm, created it and seems to work, silly me should try before asking :P
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12:20<Zuu>planetmaker: I got an account at DevZone. Can I just create projects there for my AI-projects or shall I ask you to do so? I guess the checkmark for respority imposes Mercurial?
12:20<Zuu>Especially SuperLib, I think would benefit from having a public respority to browse the source files.
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>@calc sqrt(5)
12:21<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 2.2360679775
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>@calc sqrt(5)*16
12:25<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 35.77708764
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13:25<@planetmaker>Zuu: do you already have a project at the devzone?
13:25<@planetmaker>if so: feel free to just create other projects as you need
13:25-!-andythenorth [~Andy@87.113.139.15] has joined #openttd
13:25<@planetmaker>if not, it'll need an admin (yexo, ammler me) to create the first project for you.
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13:27<@planetmaker>Having superlib there is definitely something I'd be happy about :-)
13:28<andythenorth>hellos
13:28<@planetmaker>holla, And
13:28<@planetmaker>andythenorth ;-)
13:29<@planetmaker>tab completion failure
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13:32<@planetmaker>Zuu: yes, the checkmark 'repository' (by default) means mercurial. But that can be changed, git and svn both are available, but I'll have to look how exactly that works (probably by just creating it on the server directly)
13:36<@planetmaker>Zuu: if you can't create a project already, just open a ticket and we'll create the project asap: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/home/issues/new?tracker_id=6&issue[subject]=Applying for project:
13:37*andythenorth ponders
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>i understand that some sets like AV8 use sprites based on rendered images, anybody know whether there are matching scripts to render a model and convert it to ttd palette around?
13:38<@planetmaker>did you ask Pikka ?
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>not yet
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13:39<Ammler>isn't it zeph
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13:44<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: pikka has a render setup that produces quite clean output
13:45<andythenorth>automating beyond that is 99% unlikely to work
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22664 /trunk/src/lang/serbian.txt:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: serbian - 5 changes by etran
13:46-!-goblin [~goblin@dslb-092-075-244-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
13:47<__ln__>but who is tabco?
13:49<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyser_Söze
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what i need is something where i click one button and get the sprites in a format usable by grfcodec
13:58<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I'd like a magic button too :D
13:58<andythenorth>preferably I could just imagine a sprite and it would exist
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13:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: both the rendering as well as the palette conversion should be automate-able
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>but i want me to save the trouble of figuring that out myself
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14:01<Eddi|zuHause>touching the pixels so it actually looks good is a different issue
14:01<andythenorth>I am getting slaughtered by yacd + tai
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14:02<andythenorth>it's insanely hard
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14:05<andythenorth>since when was property maintenance so expensive? :o
14:05<andythenorth>maybe pikka has done evil
14:06<V453000>dont you use japanese set? those raise it I think
14:06<andythenorth>I use ukrs 2
14:06<andythenorth>and tai
14:06<andythenorth>and pbi
14:06<V453000>hm
14:06<V453000>no clue :) but pikka tends to do that kind of things
14:06<V453000>so I wouldnt be too surprised :d
14:07<V453000>btw andythenorth: I have a question ... when you draw pixelthingies, do you do something special to prevent your eyes from being burnt? my eyes hurt after a while of looking into the zoomed pixels
14:08<andythenorth>not really
14:08<V453000>hmm :)
14:08<andythenorth>I just get square eyes :P
14:08<V453000>:D ok
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14:10<hibby>is it just me, or is the standard newGRF set lacking in a maglev/monorail food carriage?
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14:19<@Belugas>standard newgrf?
14:20<andythenorth>Belugas: my lego is currently a bit on hold due to boredom with plastic...but: http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=57627
14:21<LordAro>hibby: i would assume not: http://wiki.openttd.org/Food_Van
14:23<@Belugas>HOOOOOO....
14:23<@Belugas>les belles locos!
14:24<@Belugas>andythenorth, an advice: keep them locked out
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14:26<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> since when was property maintenance so expensive? :o <-- i had this experience as well, but i wasn't sure if it was maybe caused by daylength patch. but since yacd doesn't include daylength, it's more likely that a GRF messed with base costs. or it really always was this expensive, but nobody noticed, since you make way too much money anyway
14:26<andythenorth>hmm
14:26<andythenorth>right now I lose money :P
14:27<andythenorth>27 stations: property maintenance is $17,000 / year
14:29<supermop>is it based on per tile, or per station?
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14:33<hibby>LordAro: shall look into it
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14:33<andythenorth>wiki says it's per station
14:33<andythenorth>I just lost another game :P
14:33<supermop>impressive!
14:34<supermop>Grfs?
14:34<MNIM>lol, I never lose a game, how does that even go?
14:34<andythenorth>easy
14:35<MNIM>(though I don't use any hard game grfs and I have never been able to go above 10 mil profit)
14:38<andythenorth>yacd 2.3, vehicle costs high, construction costs medium
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>bad thing about rainy days: furry things are wet.
14:38<andythenorth>TAI, PBI, FISH, UKRS 2, UKRS 2 addons, UK tracks, OpenGFX+ rvs, CHIPS
14:39<andythenorth>start in 1890
14:39<andythenorth>focus on pax, insanely hard
14:39<andythenorth>DanMacK's idea ;P
14:39<andythenorth>no rvs :(
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>slap the opengfx+ people to include some ;)
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>make an eGRVTS fork that only includes the horsies
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>actually, that should be a very good idea
14:41<andythenorth>the horsies are broken
14:41<andythenorth>they have 0hp :P
14:41<andythenorth>so they go at 1mph
14:41<supermop>war elephants then
14:41<V453000>original acceleration is better anyway with RVs
14:41<Chris_Booth>lol 0hp
14:41<andythenorth>seems like cheating :P
14:41<Chris_Booth>they should have 2 4 or 6 hp
14:42<Chris_Booth>V453000: I am not sure
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yeah, fix that while at it :)
14:42<Chris_Booth>you would have to test them on the same network
14:42<Chris_Booth>but in general RVs suck
14:42<andythenorth>I can haz am not fixing egrvts
14:42<supermop>was there a plan to allow RV consists?
14:42<andythenorth>I can haz enough stuffs to do
14:42<V453000>well, I dont care which is better in terms of throughput, but original is just way better to play with
14:43<andythenorth>when Terkhen has finished his university stuff, he might code rv-consists :P
14:43<andythenorth>or he might not
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>a horse carriage with 1 horse should probably have ~0.7hp, and high max TE
14:43<Chris_Booth>Eddi|zuHause: no
14:43<Chris_Booth>1 horse == 1hp
14:43<supermop>so you could 'multi-head' a wagon by spamming it with teams of clydesdales
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>Chris_Booth: 1 horse != 1 horse
14:43<andythenorth>Chris_Booth: which is heavier, a ton of feathers, or a ton of coals?
14:44<Chris_Booth>andythenorth: both are the same
14:44<andythenorth>supermop: probably rvs would be limited to one powered vehicle per consist
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>Chris_Booth: 1hp was measured by one working horse going in circles. a horse used for carriages is usually weaker, but faster
14:44<Chris_Booth>Eddi|zuHause: 1 horse dose == 1 horse power
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14:44<Chris_Booth>for the sake of openttd 1 horse should be 1hp
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>modern racing horses have _significantly_ less than 1hp
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14:46<supermop>it would be nice to be able to add draught animals in 2s
14:46<supermop>rather than have separate wagons for 'one horse wagon' 'two horse wagon' 'six horse wagon'
14:47<andythenorth>it's limited by the acceleration model iirc
14:47<andythenorth>I want to do a truck set, but not without consists
14:47<supermop>and then pick between donkeys, oxen, clydesdales, ponies, thourobreds, for different speeds/TE/HP etc
14:47<andythenorth>or is it just more boring clicks to make rv consists?
14:47<andythenorth>is the current way actually better for user?
14:48<Chris_Booth>what do you want to do with them andythenorth ?
14:48<supermop>too many wagon in purchase list with egrvts
14:48<Chris_Booth>if it add in more RVs and more usable configs most usres will be happy
14:48<andythenorth>I would have maybe 6 or 8 truck models
14:48<supermop>i would rather have one horse/truck cab to buy per generation,
14:48<andythenorth>and various types of trailer
14:48<Chris_Booth>but if its like WAS then its pointless
14:48<supermop>then pick the appropriate trailer
14:49<Chris_Booth>andythenorth: that to me is a good idea
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: it's a tradeoff between longer purchase list or longer refit list
14:49<supermop>if vehicles expire, then you have maybe 4 cabs at a time,
14:50<supermop>plus an assortment of trailers, much like train wagons
14:50<andythenorth>yup
14:50<andythenorth>it's a nice theory :)
14:50<andythenorth>there is no code for it :P
14:50<supermop>yeah,
14:50<Chris_Booth>RVs would be nice if they where more like trains
14:50<supermop>and other 'nice' ideas are more important to me
14:51<supermop>so if i were to expend goodwill asking for things, it woud not be that
14:51<andythenorth>what would you rather have?
14:51<supermop>roadtypes
14:52<supermop>newports
14:52<supermop>watertypes
14:52<supermop>newstatues
14:52<andythenorth>roadtypes might be over-rated
14:52<andythenorth>not sure
14:52<supermop>more slots for bridgetypes
14:52<andythenorth>I am in two minds about use of railtypes
14:53<Chris_Booth>I think road types are silly
14:53<andythenorth>railtypes cleans up a few things and removes a few blockers, but I don't think it has added to gameplay at all
14:53<Chris_Booth>all roads need are real diagonals
14:54<supermop>i like railtypes alot, lets me have different depots
14:54<supermop>its good aesthetically
14:55<supermop>and would be more useful if people were more ambition about more non-standard gauge stuff
14:55<andythenorth>maybe
14:55<supermop>like having both transrapid and JR maglevs,
14:55<supermop>or light rail
14:56<supermop>anyway
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14:56<supermop>railtypes exist and I would go so far as to say that there is already a healthy selection of railtype grfs available
14:56<andythenorth>dunno if they add much though?
14:57<supermop>they look pretty
14:57<andythenorth>I'm not against them :)
14:57<supermop>and that is important to many users
14:57<andythenorth>I want roadtypes for some gameplay reasons
14:57<andythenorth>but it might be tmwftlb
14:58<V453000>isnt there just one railtype newgrf? swedish rails? nutracks look like shit atm
14:59<andythenorth>uk tracks
14:59<supermop>i think many people will create content even if it has little gameplay benefit
14:59<supermop>and that will be a huge boon to the 'realism' and 'model railroad' contingent
15:00<andythenorth>it's enough to have standard / overhead electric / 3rd rail / narrow gauge
15:00<andythenorth>more than that is just faff
15:00<andythenorth>ymmv :)
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15:01<Wolf01>hello
15:01<supermop>sure, but the speedlimits are nice, so long as we have no other way to artificially limit speeds
15:02<supermop>and, i agree that the four you mention are all thats needed for steel rail
15:02<supermop>but not every rail grf need to use all 16 slots
15:03<supermop>its nice to be able to have more than 4, even if you only use 5
15:03<supermop>i would say the same with roads
15:03<andythenorth>basically it's a good case of 'the spec is no longer limiting the gameplay'
15:03<andythenorth>wrt railtypes
15:03<supermop>even if we can only think of 4 types of useful roads,
15:04<supermop>lets let people have 16 or 32 or whatever, and see what they come up with
15:05<supermop>for example, i never use the 'track planning' in nutracks
15:05<supermop>buts its the sort of novel idea that never would have been considered without a railtypes
15:05<Darkdjinn>if i have a map there says cannot make trains on that map is there a way to change that so it can be buildt trains ?
15:08<supermop>what year is it?
15:10<Darkdjinn>1940
15:10<Darkdjinn>it start year
15:11<andythenorth>roads need trail, road, tramway, electrified tramway
15:11<supermop>and super positions
15:11<andythenorth>two types per tile are possible. not more
15:12<Darkdjinn>its a home maded map tho
15:12<Rubidium>andythenorth: and rail road! ;)
15:12<Darkdjinn>you can build rail all other things but not any trains
15:12<Darkdjinn>why is that ?
15:12<supermop>there might not be a train set loaded
15:12<andythenorth>hmm
15:12<andythenorth>rail road
15:12<supermop>are you using new grfs?
15:12<andythenorth>is that where we recode all train grfs to behave as rvs?
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15:13<andythenorth>I did consider using railtypes for rvs
15:13<andythenorth>and just coding a whole new rv set using that
15:13<Rubidium>Darkdjinn: a) you started to early for trains, b) you try to build diesel trains when there are only electric trains, but haven't got a electrified depot, c) you try to build the (old) TTD way from the vehicle list, d) the advanced setting for the amount of trains is set to 0
15:14<Darkdjinn>yes but the question was like this
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15:14<Rubidium>and I'm fairly sure I'm forgetting some corner cases
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15:14<Darkdjinn>i cannot build any trains locomotive at all only train tracks i can make
15:15<Rubidium>oh yes, e) you added and then removed NewGRFs
15:15<Darkdjinn>i can make as well train stations
15:16<Rubidium>to expedite the whole process of figuring out what is wrong, a savegame would be the perfect way to show us the *exact* same state you are looking at. It removes a lot of the guessing game we're trying now.
15:17<supermop>I would use the following: paved town road, unpaved town road, paved road, unpaved road, pedestrian town road, bus guideway, industrial looking roads,
15:17<andythenorth>I see :)
15:17<supermop>plus overlays of OHE and tram track
15:17<andythenorth>creativity to the fore :o
15:18<andythenorth>I am too lazy to click that many times on the menu
15:18<andythenorth>you would have severe routing + crossing headaches :D
15:18<supermop>then dont use my (hypothetical) road grf
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>i had a proposal for a road set somewhere
15:19<supermop>tram track and trolley wire should be distinct too, to allow for trolley-busses, and steam or diesel trams
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15:20<andythenorth>supermop: because there can only be two types per tile, either all your types are compatible (and so just graphics), or your towns are gridlocked :P
15:20<andythenorth>(hypothetically)
15:20<andythenorth>it's all a non-issue anyway :P
15:21<andythenorth>peter1138 has threatened to work on it, but plays minecrack instead :P
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138 hasn't worked on anything for over a year now
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>practically since the inclusion of railtypes, nothing further has been done
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>and i'm still of the opinion that we need up to 3 roadtypes per tile (or 2 roadtypes and 1 railtype on a crossing)
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>and it's worth adding an m8 for that
15:22<supermop>if we have a bunch of road types we could simply use a new type for situations were 3 types are needed
15:22<andythenorth>what's an m8?
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>one more than m7
15:23<andythenorth>supermop: yes, you can do that. the menu gets hideous :P
15:23<Darkdjinn>supermop i sent you a message
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>map array stuff
15:23<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: what's the cost of an m8?
15:23<Darkdjinn>would be avesome if you know answer what the error can be
15:23<supermop>yes, its akward, but some people will use it
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>1 byte per tile
15:23<andythenorth>so the total memory required increases? but the map can support that?
15:24<andythenorth>I thought the map was absolutely fixed
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>it's fairly trivial to do. the "new map array" myth is only there to scare away people who make useless requests :p
15:24<andythenorth>@calc (2048*2048)/8
15:24<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 524288
15:24<andythenorth>I can afford that much RAM :P
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>it'll be about 4MB on a huge map
15:25<andythenorth>the 2 roadtypes + 1 railtype case seems valid
15:25<andythenorth>but there is that appallingly unsolvable issue with catenary
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>a rail crossing might have enough bits, though
15:25<andythenorth>which I figured out how to solve at some point
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>but a normal road with 3 roadtypes does not.
15:26<andythenorth>that has the same issue
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>a rail crossing needs less bits for the layout
15:26<andythenorth>the catenary issue was 'how to draw it'
15:26<andythenorth>I think the conclusion was 'only use one type of catenary'
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>yep
15:27<andythenorth>or 'let one type win'
15:27<andythenorth>drawing 2 or 3 layers of catenary will just break
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>agreed
15:27<supermop>also 600 volt trolley wire running right under 15000 v ac soundls like trouble
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>sort by internal roadtype-id, and only draw the lowest or highest one
15:28<andythenorth>the keen eyed might file bug reports
15:28<andythenorth>close those as invalid :P
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: there are rail crossings that do that
15:28<andythenorth>you just bridge the trolley wire with a frog iirc?
15:29<andythenorth>you need to use poles on the trolley, not pantograph
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>you shut off power temporarily
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>and go over it rolling
15:29<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: if the map stuff was coded, I would be happy to try and write drawing code for roadtypes
15:29<andythenorth>I have managed to hack drawing code before
15:29<andythenorth>everything else in trunk runs up against my limited patience
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i have map code for diagonal rail crossings, you could do drawing code for that ;)
15:30<andythenorth>you'd need sprites as well?
15:30<andythenorth>didn't I test a patch for that?
15:30<andythenorth>recently?
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15:30<andythenorth>it has some...issues
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>i think most necessary sprites were already there
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>i think i solved one of the issues
15:30<andythenorth>I'm sure it was a crossing patch I tested - rvs can get trapped in crossing
15:31<andythenorth>boom
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>oh, yes, that part i did not solve (yet)
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think the roadvehicle-trap issue is just a handful LOC, the question is which lines
15:37<andythenorth>hmm
15:37<andythenorth>do you know which file?
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>roadveh_cmd.cpp would be my guess
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>there was some code which read like "define this as 'red signal'"
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>where a check would be necessary whether the current tile is a barred crossing already
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15:42<andythenorth>l738 or so?
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15:44<andythenorth>no
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15:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there's a function "TrackStatusToRedSignals" somewhere
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15:55<Eddi|zuHause>in src/track_func.h
15:57<supermop>on a mac here,
15:57<supermop>there seems to be no equivalent of ms paint
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: why would you want any of that?
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: use gimp
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it uses the result of GetTileTrackStatus
15:58<supermop>i need to sketch something reall quick but i am at work
15:59<supermop>and dont want to walk to the scanner
16:00<supermop>i'll just make a spread sheet
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so GetTileTrackStatus_Road in src/road_cmd.cpp, the TRANSPORT_ROAD case
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16:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the "if (IsCrossingBarred(tile))" needs another check of whether the adjacent crossing is also barred
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16:07<Eddi|zuHause>something like "if (IsCrossingBarred(tile) && (!IsLevelCrossingTile(TileAddByDiagDir(tile, ReverseDiagDir(side))) || !IsCrossingBarred(TileAddByDiagDir(tile, ReverseDiagDir(side))))) red_signals = trackdirbits;"
16:07<andythenorth>that's a pretty piece of code :P
16:08<Darkdjinn>is there a limit of maps to 2048x2048 or 4096x4096 ?
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>2048 is the current limit
16:10<Darkdjinn>oh
16:10<Darkdjinn>any chance it will be more ?
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16:13<Eddi|zuHause>unlikely
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>unless you show us a full map with everything connected, that is still playable in a modern machine
16:15<supermop>are one way roads an overlay of regular roads, or a different type?
16:15<andythenorth>they're just a bit set on the tile iirc
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16:16<andythenorth>although everything is 'just' a bit set on a tile :P
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: they are regular roads, with an arrow drawn on top of them
16:16<supermop>making a spread sheet
16:16<andythenorth>they're not a different type in the sense that the game currently uses types, or roadtypes
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>and trams do not have one-way-ness
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>which may or may not be a good idea
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16:20<Eddi|zuHause>oh... cool... crash on RV crash
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>openttd: /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTD/level/src/map_func.h:347: TileIndexDiff TileOffsByDiagDir(DiagDirection): Assertion `IsValidDiagDirection(dir)' failed.
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>hm, doesn't seem to be the RV crash
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>something causes INVALID_DIAGDIR to pass that line that i modified above
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>and i'm not sure what that means
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>ah. in the pathfinder
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>ok, that should be caught properly
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>what's the code style wrt multi-line if-conditions?
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>hm, now it doesn't work at all...
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>ok, need to rethink this. the diagdir never seems to be passed. so either i need to add that, or need to play around with the axis and mask some trackbits
16:43<andythenorth>:)
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>yay... it seems to work now
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>it's a wonder i got this bitmask the right way around the first time :p
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>so... how was this with the patch queues again?
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: try www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/diagonal_and_adjacent_crossings_r22664.diff
16:56<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: **** Only garbage was found in the patch input.
16:56<andythenorth>I'm using curl
16:56<andythenorth>and patch -p1
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: use wget
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>we had this problem previously
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>curl fails on some redirect
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>or try users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/diagonal_and_adjacent_crossings_r22664.diff
16:58<andythenorth>hmm
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>be aware that openttd.grf fails building due to nforenum barfing on the action 5 type
16:58<andythenorth>I need dylib whatever that is
16:58<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: this might have to wait until tomorrow sorry :|
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>just download the file ;)
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but the second url i gave should work
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17:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: man curl suggests "curl -L"
17:02<andythenorth>second url worked
17:02<andythenorth>compiling
17:03<andythenorth>bed calls though :P
17:05<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: boom!
17:06<andythenorth>crashed an rv
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of boom?
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>you need to put the path signals further away, obviously ;)
17:06<__ln__>http://thcorg.blogspot.com/2011/07/vodafone-hacked-root-password-published.html
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>vodafone doesn't happen to be a subsidiary of sony? :p
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17:08<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/boom.png
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: ah, something seems to be fishy with reversing trains and making reservations
17:12<andythenorth>the rv detects the reservation, but stops on the wrong tile (I think)
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>here, in some corner cases it doesn't detect that a path signal is near, so it doesn't reserve the crossing
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>or maybe i messed up the road axis?
17:13<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: this rv is stopped
17:13<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/pre-boom.png
17:13<andythenorth>it detects the reservation
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>aha. interesting, need to check that
17:14<Ammler>curl -L
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>yep. something fishy with the axis
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17:15<Eddi|zuHause>if the road is in / axis it works, if the road is in \ axis it doesn't
17:16<andythenorth>I have uncanny ability to hit edge cases :P
17:16<andythenorth>but now, bed
17:16<andythenorth>good night ;)
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17:17<Eddi|zuHause>well that was kinda a 50/50 "edge case" :p
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17:28<Wolf01>'night
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17:39<frosch123>night
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