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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-07-15

---Logopened Fri Jul 15 00:00:58 2011
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04:36<LordAro>hi Alberth
04:36<LordAro>i think i may have fixed the latest weird errors
04:36<LordAro>compliation has got past ai_instance.cpp anyway...
04:36<@Alberth>oh, you are not going to make more weird errors? :p
04:37<LordAro>of course! it'd be no fun without them :)
04:37<@Alberth>I do that too every now and then
04:38<@Alberth>it looks pretty scary, but it is usually easy to fix
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04:51<LordAro>yeah, i think i just had an #include in the wrong place (which is odd, considering the error messages...)
04:53<LordAro>excellent! seems to be compiling (that is, it's got past all the files i've modified) :)
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05:12<LordAro>lol, tags for the logic train(on bananas) : "openttd, logic, fast, ammler, openttdcoop, sex, fun, whatever"
05:16<LordAro>hmm, when i exit the newgrf settings window, i get many lines like:
05:16<LordAro>dbg: [grf] [firs_industry_replacement_set-0.6.4\firs.grf:2853] DecodeSpecialSprite: Skipping action 0x02 in stage 3
05:16<LordAro>dbg: [grf] [firs_industry_replacement_set-0.6.4\firs.grf:2854] DecodeSpecialSprite: Skipping action 0x02 in stage 3
05:16<LordAro>dbg: [grf] [firs_industry_replacement_set-0.6.4\firs.grf:2855] DecodeSpecialSprite: Skipping action 0x02 in stage 3
05:16<LordAro>is that just because of my debug level, or is it something else?
05:17<@peter1138>its your debug level
05:18<LordAro>good, just checking, because it freezes for about a minute or 2
05:19<@Alberth>wth lots of disk activity? it may just be scanning your directories looking for data files
05:20<LordAro>i don't think so, i think the majority is printing all of the above
05:20<LordAro>there were many thousands of lines like that
05:21<@peter1138>if you're using a slow terminal (especially with antialiased fonts) it can take a while to output it
05:21<LordAro>is mingw slow? idk
05:22<Eddi|zuHause>very probably
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05:25<LordAro>what would be a recommended debug level?
05:26<@peter1138>what are you debugging?
05:28<LordAro>not much i guess, i just like the console output, makes me feel important
05:29<LordAro>i'll go for 1 then :)
05:29<@peter1138>go for 0, really
05:35<LordAro>Alberth: i seem to have broken your GrfHasReadme function (when i was fiddling around with chars) it seems to always return true, can you check it for me?
05:36<@Alberth>can you not compare against the previous version?
05:40<@Alberth> <-- this is the version I have
05:40<@Alberth>(I am busy doing other things now)
05:43<LordAro>ok, i'll try not too bother you then
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06:09<LordAro>ah, i was missing a '!' :rolleyes:
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>happens to the best of us ;)
06:11<LordAro>and the worst :L
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>is there like an "include if exists" directive, or do i have to create lots of empty files?
06:15<@Alberth>depends on your language processor :) in CPP, no such thing
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>ah well...
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06:35<Atary>how are you?
06:35<@Alberth>in need of some coffee
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06:43<LordAro>that was interesting...
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06:44<@Alberth>not really, I still don't have coffee :P
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07:16<thewanderer>hi, who's the release manager? any chance that there be digital signatures for the packages?
07:17<Ammler>what is the advantage to the md5/sha sums?
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07:18<thewanderer>that the signature can not be faked
07:20<@peter1138>do people actually check them? heh
07:22<thewanderer>seeing how vsftpd got backdoored lately, I bet they will :P
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07:33<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: suggestion: extension ".gnml" for autogenerated files?
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07:53<LordAro>thewanderer: why do you want digital signatures?
07:57<thewanderer>LordAro: to install binary packages without reading all the source and compiling it first
07:58<LordAro>which (i presume) is quicker?
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>thewanderer: which part of a signature is unfakeable?
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>i mean in a way that someone is able to post modified builds in accordance to his GPL rights
08:00<thewanderer>sure, but then he has to sign that with his own key
08:00<Ammler>how do you modifiy packages without changing the md5sum?
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>how does that help then, if someone can replace both the binary with his own binary and the signature with this own signature?
08:02<thewanderer>Eddi|zuHause: it is expected that people who validate signatures routinely will have the original keys and will be able to tell that the signature comes from someone else
08:02<thewanderer>Ammler: you don't. if you're a cracker, you modify the packages and the md5sums displayed on the website.
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>thewanderer: so if it involves work, one may as well compare the md5sum with the one posted a month ago?
08:04<thewanderer>yes, but a wise attacker will post a fake release announcement and link to a newer version so that the md5sum is not supposed to match :P
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>i still don't see what advantage a signature has there...
08:05<thewanderer>the advantage is that if a file is faked, and its signature is replaced, there is a way to tell that it does not come from the original author
08:05<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: you have the key already locally
08:06<Ammler>it is like the packages from distros are signed
08:06<thewanderer>yes, the chain of trust has to be established, as Ammler said
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: but i can as well store the md5sum locally?
08:06<Ammler>yep, but that changes with every releases
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>hm... why is "kW" not a valid unit in nml?
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08:53<Eddi|zuHause>quickly a hg guru: how do i remove an erratic commit from my local hg repo?
08:59<@Alberth>hg rollback
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09:20<Ammler>or strip
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09:20<MNIM2>eddi's not a stripper.
09:21<MNIM2>or as they call it, a 'professional clothes remover'
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>hm... need a new trick for the availability checks...
09:30<pikka>a sartorial deconstructionalist?
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>does nml have the concept of functions?
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09:56<Ammler>is oberhümer a German too?
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>at least he has proven to speak german :p
09:59<Ammler>he applied to help with cets :-)
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker tried to recruit him as artist, as far as i understand
10:03<confound><3 "sartorial deconstructionist"
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10:07<V453000>is CETS really expected to have like 270 engines? .o
10:08<MNIM2>how many does 2CC have right now?
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10:09<Ammler>hmm, 270 only
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: you wouldn't normally have all of them available
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10:10<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: and i expect even more to enter the tracking table
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10:11<MNIM2>I like 2CC's proposal to have engines available depending on region
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10:11<MNIM2>uh-oh, netsplat
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10:12<MNIM2>though there's one but
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10:12<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM2: more like the coop-bouncer going offline
10:12<MNIM2>I like the American freight engines.
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10:12<MNIM2>while I like everything else euro
10:13<MNIM2>so there's only a select few engines from other regions I want to see, but such does not seem to be possible.
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10:13<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM2: can't satisfy everybody
10:13<MNIM2>instead, it would be much nicer to be able to divide the engine list into tabs per region
10:14<MNIM2>true, true. :P
10:14<MNIM2>but I don't think that that would be easy to do, coding-wise
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10:14<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: currently, there's around 100 "core" engines
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10:14<V453000>that is still an insane amount
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: over 100 years?
10:15<V453000>wont most of them remain useless?
10:15<MNIM2>as eddi said, over more than 100 years
10:15<MNIM2>also, just look at the options most real-life rail companies have
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: some of them are exclusively DB, and others exclusively DR, so you have even less
10:16<MNIM2>the dutch railways, for example, have the choice between dutch, belgian, german, french and scandinavian vehicles
10:16<V453000>MNIM2: making a newgrf by just copying real life is in my opinion dumb
10:17<MNIM2>not so much choice in pure belgians or dutch engines nowadays, but still. :P
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: the timeline looks fairly balanced. the only currently planned real "redundancy" is by railtype (heavy mainline, light branchline)
10:17<MNIM2>V453000: the purpose of ottd, as far as Ive gathered, is to provide a versatile and mostly realistic transport sim.
10:18<confound>mostly realistic? ha ha ha
10:18<MNIM2>having only twenty engines available over a period of at least hundred years is hardly realistic, and certainly not versatile
10:18<MNIM2>read /mostly/ realistic. :P
10:19<MNIM2>I should say, realistically complicated.
10:19<MNIM2>ottd, in my classifications, is a high IQ game.
10:20<@Alberth>but not aimed at realism, no matter how much players think it is
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10:20<MNIM2>lol, maybe it's the other way round, alberth ;)
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10:20<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: the plan was to have a new engine around every ten years for each category (local, commuter, express, light cargo, heavy cargo), each with a normal and electric variant
10:21<@Alberth>neither, it contains things that are fun for the game, whether it happens in RL or not, is not relevant
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10:21<@Alberth>you can use RL for inspiration, of course
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>so that amounts to roughly 100 engines
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>bah, he's gone again
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: quit playing with the server :p
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10:28<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: not me :-P
10:28<Ammler>(this time)
10:30<V453000>+hmf :d
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11:37<Eddi|zuHause>[15.07.2011 16:20] <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: the plan was to have a new engine around every ten years for each category (local, commuter, express, light cargo, heavy cargo), each with a normal and electric variant
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>[15.07.2011 16:21] <Eddi|zuHause> so that amounts to roughly 100 engines
11:38<V453000>well, yeah, that is quite good, I am doing something very similar myself, but the key thing is - do the engines improve from one version to the next one?
11:38<V453000>like ... 1930s light cargo train being "worse" than 1940s
11:39<V453000>if not then the 1940s one is likely to be useless
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: occasionally not, especially after the "war gap" in the DR-side
11:40<V453000>lol :)
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11:41<Eddi|zuHause>the BR 01.10 and the BR E18 do 150km/h as an "express" engine, but after the war the BR 01.05 and BR E11 only do 130/120 km/h
11:41<Rubidium>regarding the whole signature thing: a good cracker will actually modify the compile farm, so it won't even be noticable to the one signing the binaries that a backdoor has been inserted
11:42<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: that is based on "real" stats I assume eh? :(
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: and the first engine doing more than 140km/h afterwards will be 40 years later the ICE1
11:43<V453000>so BR E18 is likely to be used for more than 50 years
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: well there's only so much you can do to tweak stats...
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: the E18 will only be available for a short time
11:44<V453000>expecting vehicles never expire to be off?
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>yes. of course you can "cheat" that way ;)
11:45<V453000>well, guess I cant help you there :D good luck
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>or you can just select the "extended" set, which may include some prototype E18 that went 180km/h
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>and the BR 18 201 as a steam engine also in that speed range
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11:50<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: my table of speeds
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11:51<V453000>note: the set is called "unrealistic" so war isnt a problem :P
11:51<Eddi|zuHause> <- this is the 18 201. said to be the fastest currently operational steam engine
11:53<V453000>but not a single train of mine will have a "real" counterpart :P
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>well, we already left out the fastest pre-war engines, like the E19 or the BR 05 and BR 61, which already went ~180km/h
11:54<V453000>he :d
11:55<V453000>im glad I am not a slave of "real" values :PPP
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>some speed records from pre-war era were only broken after 50 years by ICE trains. and some others are still in place
11:56<V453000>yep reality sucks for a game :)
11:56<@Alberth>a monopolist has no desire impressing the general public :)
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. the record for the line Berlin-Dresden, operated pre-war by the BR 61 is still not broken, since the ICE has an intermediate stop in Berlin-Südkreuz
11:57<supermop>ottd should have no wars, thus no post-war engines
11:57<Rubidium>pff, those number look pretty ℝeal to me ;)
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: he said unrealistic, not unreal :p
11:58<Rubidium>he talked about '"real" values'
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>oh, missed that line ;)
12:01<V453000>Rubidium: well, might seem real but they are based on a game instead of saying "hitler was bad so our engines are going to be slow"
12:04<__ln__>number one news headline in finland currently: arrogant germans
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: in how far is that news?
12:13<__ln__>when a newspaper (a tabloid, but still) writes literally about "arrogant germans", somehow that reminds me of some war-time propaganda.
12:14<__ln__>"watch the video of the arrogant germans here!
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: and in how far do you remember war-time propaganda? ;)
12:15<__ln__>admittedly i was quite young
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12:33<Ammler>[17:41] <Rubidium> regarding the whole signature thing: a good cracker will actually modify the compile farm, so it won't even be noticable to the one signing the binaries that a backdoor has been inserted <-- quite harder as cracking a random mirror
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13:13<Eddi|zuHause>hm. will this work? "climates_available: (avail_DR_4_core||avail_DBAG_5_core) ? ALL_CLIMATES : NO_CLIMATE;"
13:14<Rubidium>Ammler: but a cracked mirror is somewhat pointless as the next rsync will overwrite the changes
13:16<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i see no reason why it should not
13:19<Ammler>Rubidium: well, IMO it is useless anyway
13:19<Ammler>you can't trust upstream anyway :-)
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>there are very few arguments for the signature thing
13:20<Ammler>we had such discussions on the distro side too
13:27<Rubidium>any form of signatures, be it checksums or something more eleborate, need a guaranteed safe place for storing the related data. Without that all is lost. Given there is no guaranteed safe place, it's already lost
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13:34<Ammler>well, signing with e.g. gpg could be done via 3rd party so someone would need to hack 2 services
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13:36*Rubidium will just assume the compiler is compromised
13:37<Rubidium>i.e. the compiler inserts a backdoor of sorts
13:38<Rubidium>which might actually already be happening, just assume that it's smart enough to put the backdoor in binaries during linking
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22666 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt luxembourgish.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: czech - 7 changes by micropro_cz
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 9 changes by Phreeze
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13:58<Eddi|zuHause>yaaay... i got a compiled GRF ;)
13:58<V453000>long way to go until that point for me :D
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>it currently has ca. 40000 lines :p
14:00<MNIM2>...isn't that rather long for a grf?
14:00<Ammler>depends if it is nfo or nml :-)
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>it's mostly autogenerated NML from the properties of the tracking table
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>so if you assume 200 engines, it's about 200 lines per engine
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>half of which is properties, the other half sprites and callbacks
14:02<V453000>200 lines per engine? :D
14:02<Ammler>hmm, firs nfo and nml is almost same length
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14:04<Eddi|zuHause>so far seems to work as well
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>lots of features missing
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>like engine name :p
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14:07<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: you know the makefile: can you move into scripts and call it from the makefile?
14:08<@planetmaker>yes, I'll do that
14:09<@planetmaker>I wanted to ask you about that anyway, whether it had a reason to put it into the main dir :-)
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14:09<@planetmaker>good evening also :-)
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: no reason, just quick and dirty
14:10<V453000>hello good sir :)
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: what's the working directory if it's called from the makefile?
14:10<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: gnml won't be recognized by dep checks...
14:10<@planetmaker>what's the reason for that extension?
14:11<@planetmaker>(yes, it can be added there, too, just curious)
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: something different than pnml so i can do things like "find | xargs rm"
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>also "make clean" should do that
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>the .gnml files shouldn't be manually modified
14:12<@planetmaker>So... they're generated by the makefile?
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>they are generated by
14:12<@planetmaker>(or should be)
14:12<@planetmaker>ok... so by Makefile ;-)
14:13-!-mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>we might want to add a check whether the file was modified during generation process, to avoid unnecessary dep triggers
14:13<@planetmaker>how do you mean?
14:13<@planetmaker>Makefile does that automatically
14:14<@planetmaker>that's one of the points of using make ;-)
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but overwrites the file, invalidating the timestamp
14:14<@planetmaker>well, that depends on how is called ;-)
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>it does that regardless of whether the file changed
14:14<@planetmaker>it has an input file.
14:14<@planetmaker>yes, of course
14:15<@planetmaker>but it won't be called when not needed ;-)
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but changes in the input file don't necessarily change all output files ;)
14:15<@planetmaker>well... it's one grf anyway only
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>well, it probably doesn't matter
14:15<@planetmaker>so... re-compilation has to be done entirely anyway
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>nmlc took quite long ;)
14:17<@planetmaker>hm... can we rename the tracking table to NOT use spaces?
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>stumbled upon that myself :p
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>hg's tabcompletition fails to escape them
14:18<@planetmaker>and shell scripts usually don't like that either ;-)
14:19<@planetmaker>for i in $filenames; do ... will completely fail on that
14:19<@planetmaker>is there a reason for the name as is?
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>that was the name google chose on exporting the file
14:20<@planetmaker>Renaming the tab will help, I guess
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>but rename it if you want ;)
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>it's not the tab name
14:21<@planetmaker>ah. Yes, I want to kill the spaces ;-)
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, renaming the whole table did it.
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>is now _
14:22<@planetmaker>both spaces?
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>rename it in the repo and in
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes, both spaces are now _
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>enough for one day... next task: handle vehicle names
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>we might need to autogenerate the lang file as well
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>makes it difficult to have translated names for the vehicles
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14:40<Eddi|zuHause>hg rebase works nicely, it seems ;)
14:43<@planetmaker>for one commit there's hg rollback
14:44<@planetmaker>same effect but maybe slightly faster
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>rebase is for when i forget to pull before commit/push
14:44<@planetmaker>hg rollback; hg up; (up up enter)
14:44<@planetmaker>hm.. one up missing or so ;-)
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>ci, ci, ci, push/fail, pull, rebase, push/succeed
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>but i didn't get an email for your push
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>seems email notifications don't cover the repository, only the tickets
14:48<@planetmaker>hm... I got a dep check infinite loop :-P
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>sounds fun :p
14:54<@planetmaker>takes a bit to compile indeed :-)
14:54<@planetmaker>I guess you added meanwhile 2^n engines to the set ;-)
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14:54<Eddi|zuHause>one engine per tracking table entry
14:54<@planetmaker>which is not little ;-)
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>it already works better than i expected to get today ;)
14:57<@planetmaker>hm, seems that Makefile change works :-)
14:58<LordAro>it's annoying how doxygen shows no trace of functions that have no documentation... is there perhaps a config flag that can be changed?
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure there is
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>but maybe you should just document each function :p
15:02<LordAro>me? pfft. i barely undersdtand the short function that Al berth gave me earlier :L
15:04<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: check it out whether that suits you
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: later
15:05<@planetmaker>My tests work... but there sometimes happen to be cases which I fail to see in makefile deps :-)
15:05<@planetmaker>no rush :-)
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15:16<LordAro>with FioFOpenFileTar(), where does the "size_t *filesize" come from, and how do i get it?
15:19<frosch123>if it is not documented, then grep for usages of that function in the source, figure it out, write the documentation, and submit the documentation patch to
15:20<LordAro>guessed that may be my answer :)
15:22<LordAro>also, who wants to use grep? i use crtl+shift+f in notepad++ :P
15:23<V453000>what does that do? something like grep?
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15:30<LordAro>"Find in files"
15:30<LordAro>(i.e. /src dir)
15:31<frosch123>"grep" is a verb
15:34<LordAro>"grepping" :)
15:38*Alberth acks nowadays
15:40<@Alberth>LordAro: it is an output argument
15:41<@Alberth>if (filesize != NULL) *filesize = entry->size; <-- that writes data in a supplied variable
15:43<LordAro>so it's optional?
15:43<@Alberth>yep, just set it to NULL
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>can pass NULL and ignore it
15:45<@Alberth>but you may want to know how many bytes you need to malloc for the file :p
15:45<LordAro>so "FioFOpenFileTar(<some tar thingy>, NULL)" ?
15:46<@Alberth>size_t size ; FILE *fp = FioOpenFileTar(<tar-entry>, &size);
15:49<LordAro>&size being NULL..
15:49<@Alberth>char *text = MallocT<char>(size); if (fread(text, 1, size, fp) != size) { /* error */ ; return ... }; fclose(fp);
15:50<@Alberth>no, &size give the address in memory where the 'size' value is stored
15:50<@Alberth>NULL is a constant, denoting 'invalid address'
15:51<@Alberth>hmm, should be "MallocT<char>(size+1);
15:52<@Alberth>and at the end, do text[size] = '\0';
15:52<Ammler>[20:46] <Eddi|zuHause> but i didn't get an email for your push <-- you could watch #openttdcoop.devzone
15:53<Ammler>or the activity feed
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: i want an e-mail notification. nothing more, nothing less
15:53*LordAro saves another log of this channel :)
15:54<@Alberth>I thought you'd first do rendering of text to the window :)
15:54<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: gimme the hook I should install :-P
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: i did get emails for the ticket changes, but not for the push
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15:55<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: that's normal
15:56<@planetmaker>e-mail upon push is not (yet) implemented at the devzone
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15:56<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i want an email for every entery on the activity tab, except my own
15:57<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: getting notifications is overrated :)
15:57<Ammler>like "any event" in the notification settings should imply
15:57<@Alberth>good night
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16:00<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: exactly.
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16:05<Ammler>should be doable
16:05<Ammler>I guess redmine itself is not able yet
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16:08<Ammler>I would add the config file to .devzone
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16:57<LordAro>night all
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17:33<dragonhorseboy>any of you think it couldn't be too hard to write a compactibility layer for working tcp/ip in ottd-dos? considering that arachne web browser proves that it can be done
17:34<__ln__>would there be a reason for doing that besides proving it can be done?
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17:34<dragonhorseboy>more multiplayer users? :)
17:35<__ln__>two more?
17:35<dragonhorseboy>lot more than that?
17:36<__ln__>what kind of people use dos today for games?
17:36<dragonhorseboy>many especially the ones that aren't running windows by default as well
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>dragonhorseboy: we will eagerly await your patch.
17:36<dragonhorseboy>I've kinda almost quitted bothering with ottd because .. mm well yeah no mutliplayer ^-^
17:37<__ln__>dragonhorseboy: i checked my calendar and it says the year is 2011. probably something like 199x over there?
17:37<dragonhorseboy>eddilzu....heh well problem would be if I was to code it might mess up things so :)
17:37<dragonhorseboy>ln..nope..its 2011
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: when reading this article i constantly have this thought in mind: "we will give you 'protection' if you voluntarily give us some money"
17:39<dragonhorseboy>eddilzu for that reason it might be better to let someone do it unless we want to cause a new port
17:39<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: only communists would offer protection without payment.
17:39<dragonhorseboy>protection for money? heh thats probably not much new
17:41<__ln__>i can believe people are playing old dos games in dosbox. i can even believe they are running dos on real hardware to do that. but i cannot believe it's the only OS available to them.
17:42<dragonhorseboy>ln..theres more than dosbox and for the record..yes sometimes its the only one without a major complete rewrite of the game
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>who the hell is this eddilzu guy you keep talking to?
17:42<dragonhorseboy>i used to try freeciv for some time till they dropped a few platforms and I was on one of them so...had to quit :/
17:44<__ln__>which platform was that?
17:47<dragonhorseboy>lazy recompile of riscos/netbsd blend which rather worked well for months
17:47<__ln__>i see
17:47<dragonhorseboy>now like with everything else theres only basically windows/linux left..nothing else.. where's bsd at all anyway
17:48<dragonhorseboy>at least macsoft is still around for most retail shelf games
17:49<confound>so wait, you're saying there are people running openttd under dosbox rather than running it directly under some unix?
17:49*confound boggles
17:49<dragonhorseboy>confound its not unix btw
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>we used to have native *bsd support at one time
17:52<dragonhorseboy>if theres one thing I sometimes hate {I guess its not always the author's fault tho} is when the port is a crude one without taking the different os gui into consideration
17:53<dragonhorseboy>at least if I recall right someone did try build a decent gui port of ottd to mobile touchscreens didn't they?
17:53<dragonhorseboy>or has it been a long time I forgot details
17:53<@planetmaker>[23:36] dragonhorseboy many especially the ones that aren't running windows by default as well <-- why would they? Why wouldn't they run their native version of OpenTTD?
17:54<confound>I thought that's what I asked
17:54<@planetmaker>reading the whole log, I think so, too
17:54<confound>I assume the answer is that there isn't one because they're running bsd.
17:55<dragonhorseboy>planetmaker well it would be native if multiplayer was working too?
17:56<confound>I can't make sense of that question.
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17:57<@planetmaker>dragonhorseboy: there are about 3 major OS types. All three support OpenTTD natively, we even provide binaries. And then there are many more where one can compile it
17:57<@planetmaker>And yes, I don't understand your question.
17:58<@planetmaker>OpenTTD supports multiplayer natively.
17:58<@planetmaker>It's DOS which doesn't support TCP/IP and / or UDP. Dunno which
17:58<@planetmaker>or whereever it's missing its proper network protocol
17:59*orudge got OpenTTD networking working on DOS :D
17:59<@orudge>many years ago
17:59<dragonhorseboy>planetmaker dos actually does support it.. its just not included in the default disks
17:59<@orudge>this was before the current "official" DOS support
17:59<@orudge>it'd be relatively straightforward to do so now, except for the fact I can't be bothered and roboboy would probably be the only person to use it
18:00<@orudge>[22:33:19] <dragonhorseboy> any of you think it couldn't be too hard to write a compactibility layer for working tcp/ip in ottd-dos? considering that arachne web browser proves that it can be done
18:00<@orudge>dragonhorseboy: That'd be WATTCP
18:00<dragonhorseboy>one of the thing I find a bit weird tho is freedos being used for a lot of commerical purposes to today
18:00<dragonhorseboy>I'll never understand why they don't just switch to RTOS or something
18:00<@orudge>which, as I say, I did get OpenTTD to use about 4 years ago
18:00<@orudge>it was extremely slow
18:00<@orudge>almost unplayable
18:00<@orudge>but, it worked
18:01<dragonhorseboy>if theres one thing.. I don't think I would want a mpeg2 or even mpeg4 player in dos .. that would just be too comical in a stupid sense
18:01<@orudge>anyway, bed time for me
18:01<dragonhorseboy>after all I don't know if dos could deal with 720i size
18:01<dragonhorseboy>bye orudge
18:02<@planetmaker>g'night orudge
18:02<@orudge>[23:01:52] <dragonhorseboy> after all I don't know if dos could deal with 720i size <-- sure it can
18:02<@planetmaker>bed is very tempting. Good night then here, too :-)
18:02<@orudge>back in the day, I had DOS apps using 2048xsomething or other
18:02<@orudge>or some ridiculous high resolution
18:02<@orudge>my 15" CRT didn't like it at all, mind you
18:02<@orudge>but, it was certainly possible
18:03<dragonhorseboy>mm I see
18:03<@orudge>DOS, after all, doesn't do graphics
18:03<@orudge>you interface with the graphics hardware directly
18:03<@orudge>and Allegro supported quite a variety of late 90s-era hardware
18:03<@orudge>as long as you have an appropriate VBE or VESA driver (or natively supported hardware), you should be OK
18:04<@orudge>but with modern hardware, you may have more trouble
18:04<@orudge>now then, really bed time
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18:39<Wolf01>'night all
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21:19<Markk>Hallo, where do I report a spelling mistake?
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---Logclosed Sat Jul 16 00:00:59 2011