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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-07-17

---Logopened Sun Jul 17 00:00:01 2011
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04:06<@Terkhen>good morning
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04:18<LordAro>mornings
04:22-!-Polygon [~Poly@p54B454BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
04:22<@Terkhen>hi LordAro
04:23<LordAro>hai Terkhen :)
04:23-!-Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
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04:23<@Terkhen>hi Alberth
04:23<@Alberth>hi
04:24*Alberth considers doing a bit of tarfile creating today
04:25<LordAro>ji ALberth
04:25<LordAro>*hi
04:25<LordAro>lol
04:34<@planetmaker>moin
04:37<@Alberth>moin
04:38*planetmaker gives albert a tar file ;-)
04:38<@Alberth>stupid linux system, no tar(5) :(
04:38<@Alberth>good, an example :)
04:39<@planetmaker>you really need some? ;-)
04:40<@Alberth>I'd also be happy with some OpenTTD code for creating them :p
04:40<@planetmaker>he :-) I thought we have that already?
04:40<@planetmaker>Or do we just read them yet?
04:40<@Alberth>creating?
04:41<@Alberth>afaik it is read-only currently
04:41<@planetmaker>dowload content only writes binary without such knowledge?
04:41<@planetmaker>(just asking, I didn't look at that code)
04:42<@Alberth>don't know exactly, but wouldn't it just download data from the remote?
04:43<@planetmaker>probably
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05:00<J4n>hello
05:01<@planetmaker>hi j4n
05:01<J4n>how can i run more trains on 1 line
05:01<J4n>i dont get it with the light signs
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05:01-!-planetmaker is "Ingo von Borstel" on #openttd #openttd.ovh @+#wwottdgd #openttdcoop.devzone @+#openttdcoop.stable @+#openttdcoop +#openDune @+#openttdcoop.dev
05:01-!-mode/#openttd [+o planetmaker] by ChanServ
05:01<@planetmaker>I suggest you read up on the signal guides
05:02<J4n>i already did
05:02<J4n>tbh its more confusing than helping :D
05:02<J4n>or im too stupid
05:02<@planetmaker>and join MP servers and look and learn :-)
05:02<J4n>mp server
05:03<@planetmaker>multiplayer
05:04<J4n>ahh ok
05:04<J4n>can i just watch too?
05:04<@planetmaker>of course
05:04<J4n>how can i join :)
05:04<@planetmaker>but better is trying to build what you see :-)
05:05<@planetmaker>http://uwe.s2000.at/ttdx/signal/index.php?lang=en&filter=ottd http://wiki.openttd.org/Signal and http://kokolokus.de/?s=blog&v=6 what I usually recommend as reading
05:06<J4n>ty
05:06<@planetmaker>if you use path signals: put a signal there where a train shall be allowed to stop
05:06<@planetmaker>that's all you gotta know
05:08<J4n>do i have to build waiting slots for trains?
05:08<J4n>that the other train can pass through
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05:10<@planetmaker>on a single piece of track of course only one train can be at a time.
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05:10<J4n>ok good to know
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05:27<LordAro>planetmaker: safely, at least :)
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06:41<Wolf01>hello
06:42<@planetmaker>hi Wolf01
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06:55<V453000>hello beautiful
06:56<@planetmaker>hi V453000
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06:58<V453000>hu pm :)
07:01<V453000>pm: question, if I draw something in "fire" pixels, what will happen? will it glow in game like fire does, or? http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/images/grfwiki/b/be/Dospal.png seen here
07:02<frosch123>use ttdviewer :)
07:02<frosch123>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ttdviewer
07:02<V453000>sounds bloody awesome, thanks
07:08<V453000>right, question number 2: how far of a terribly stupid idea is abusing the glowing water/fire/etc stuff on trains? :D
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>very.
07:09<frosch123>water effects are quite nice on firs
07:09<frosch123>well, and if you want a rocket train ....
07:09<V453000>I have rocket trains :P
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>if you see fire coming out of the steam engine, you might be in back to the future 3 :p
07:10<V453000>:D
07:11<frosch123>the lighthouse blinking might also work on firs vehicles and other heavy stuff
07:11<@planetmaker>use those pixels which look best ;-)
07:11<V453000>right :D
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>some vehicles of GermanRV use red or yellow blinking pixels while at stations
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>the yellow blinking looks weird though, as it is not 50/50
07:12<@planetmaker>typical broken blinking device ;-)
07:12<@planetmaker>service required more often :-P
07:12<V453000>ok lets get psycho
07:15<@planetmaker>what're you up to, V453000?
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07:15<Eddi|zuHause>"unrealistic train set" he said yesterday ;)
07:16<@planetmaker>ah :-)
07:16*planetmaker loves un-realism :-)
07:16<@planetmaker>reality already has too much 'realism'
07:17<V453000>something nuts
07:17<@planetmaker>apropos realism, Eddi|zuHause: what do you think of overhuemer's tries to convince you of using 22.5° angle steps instead of 15°?
07:17<V453000>and when I say nuts I think you can believe me
07:17<@planetmaker>I'm not sure what I shall make of that, honestly
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07:18<Eddi|zuHause>haven't looked at it yet
07:18-!-HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.170.220] has joined #openttd
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>and i'm definitely not doing this before lunch ;)
07:18<@planetmaker>hehe
07:18*planetmaker is having brunch ;-)
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>don't you have brunch at like 10 o'clock? ;)
07:19<@planetmaker>I definitely don't have brunch before getting up from bed :-P
07:20<@planetmaker>or only on the _very_ rare occasion befor that ;-)
07:20<frosch123>brunch is the meal between breakfast and lunch
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07:20<@planetmaker>between? In combination of, I thought
07:20<frosch123>:p
07:20<frosch123>shall i say between the second breakfast and the first lunch?
07:21<frosch123>not to confuse with the snack at noon
07:21<V453000>planetmaker: I am basically up to making a train set which has only one purpose: playability. With which is hand-in hand the fact that I am going to use my own values based on gameplay, not a single "real life counterpart" crap. ... So some futuristic or even not so futuristic, but still just "stuff what imagination brought" tends to be quite ... odd :)
07:22<@planetmaker>what defines "playability" for you?
07:22<V453000>well for example that I get a new engine every 2 years
07:22<V453000>that the vehicle stats make sense
07:22<@planetmaker>lool @ frosch123 :-)
07:22<V453000>which is mainly it basically
07:22<@planetmaker>I didn't have the impression you were *such* a hungry person ;-)
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07:24<@planetmaker>hm... /me ponders whether "show linked images inline" is a good option for an IRC client
07:25<frosch123>planetmaker: did you never read discworld?
07:26<@planetmaker>like 6 books. Then it became somewhat repetitive in the humor - pattern
07:27<@planetmaker>so I read some, but certainly only a small minority of the discwold novels ;-)
07:27<frosch123>the wizards (including the wizzard) have a quite dense schedule of meals :)
07:27<@planetmaker>hm :-) I did not recall that - so probably a topic in one of the books I did not read ;-)
07:28<frosch123>i hope you did not read the early ones, the first few are indeed not that good
07:28<@planetmaker>the thing I most remember is the uber-sharp scythe of the Grim Reaper ;-)
07:29<@planetmaker>as sharp that it ionizes the air around the edge :-P
07:29<frosch123>the one sharpened with light?
07:29<@planetmaker>hm, possibly, yes
07:29<@planetmaker>and... might be that it were about the first ones. It's certainly like 10 ... 15 years ago that I read them
07:30<@planetmaker>though it was already then that there were more than just a hand full of disc world novels around
07:31<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> not to confuse with the snack at noon <-- have you converted to hobbit-ism? ;)
07:32<frosch123>true, they also have similiar rites
07:35<@planetmaker>:-)
07:35<@planetmaker>with all respect: both of you would not pass as hobits ;-)
07:35<@planetmaker>(nor myself actually)
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>i could pass as gandalf ;)
07:36<@planetmaker>Boromir ;-)
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>nah, i'd have to fight then...
07:36<@planetmaker>The worst fights were for Gandalf...
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>but he did not have to rely on strength alone
07:41<@planetmaker>"thou shall not pass!" ;-)
07:41<@planetmaker>the best battle is the battle not fought
07:43<frosch123>http://pics.nase-bohren.de/obiwan-vs-gandalf.jpg
07:43<@planetmaker>hehe :-)
07:43<frosch123>does your inline function work?
07:45<@planetmaker>not with that one...
07:46<@planetmaker>but it worked with the newgrf wiki image earlier. Why ever
07:46<frosch123>ah, i guess it would only work with http://pics.nase-bohren.de/obiwan-vs-gandalf.jpg/1310902753
07:46<frosch123>the other one has html stuff around
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07:48<@planetmaker>neither :-) But... not really important...
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08:08<LordAro>V453000: how about adding the train from back to the future (3) to your trainset? with flames coming out of it when it reaches 88mph :)
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08:13<frosch123>ottd has only red fire effects
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>well, could one make a custom recolour-sprite-animation?
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>i mean: return a different recolour sprite in each animation frame
08:15<@planetmaker>you could just use a recolour sprite for the animation colours
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>recolour the steam puffs randomly ;)
08:25<lugo->Nyan Train
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know what exactly oberhümer did, but these offsets are _not_ right
08:25<@planetmaker>hm... recolour sprites are probably used much too little ;-)
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08:31<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: you mean wagons should turn earlier?
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>no, everything is aligned wrong...
08:31<@planetmaker>hm? In what way?
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>the sprites don't even start at the beginning of the vehicle in normal views
08:32<@planetmaker>wrt bounding boxes? hm... yes
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not very convinced...
08:35<@planetmaker>ui... why does the A2 have 1HP power?
08:36<@planetmaker>makes for _very_ bad acceleration ;-)
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>because somebody didn't fill out the value in the tracking table
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08:38<@planetmaker>:-)
08:39<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: suggestion for generate.py: detect those vehicles with incomplete stats and don't write files for them - but generate a warning ouput line instead
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>warning, probably, but rather fill out some random default values
08:40<frosch123>hmm, someone in here who builds while paused regulary?
08:41<frosch123>s/regulary/sometimes/
08:41<MNIM>yes.
08:42<frosch123>nice :) the explosions when removing something block my view... however it is not possible to animate them during pause due to the way they are implemented.
08:42<frosch123>so i wonder what is better: do not spawn them when paused, or hide all effects when paused
08:43*Alberth votes for the former
08:43<frosch123>in the latter case they will pop up when pause is continued
08:43<frosch123>though it also hides stuff started before the pausing started
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>yes, the latter. or modify the effects to start with a transparent sprite
08:44<MNIM>I like eddi's last suggestion
08:44<@Alberth>although it may be nice to expose a newly build structure with a big explosion :p
08:44<frosch123>yeah, that might work as well
08:45<MNIM>a less hack-like solution like implementing explosions more like the buy/sell ka-chings would be even better, but a hack like that makes live considerably easier too without so much effort
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09:21<narf0>Hi, Where to put and what files/dirs for openttd for symbian?
09:23<@planetmaker>you'd have to ask the person who compiles it for symbian. It's not an official port
09:25<narf0>okay but maybe, do you know if a need the transport tycoon deluxe files or can i use the freeware ones?
09:26<@planetmaker>I'm quite sure you can use OpenGFX and friends
09:26<@planetmaker>except if the symbian port is like from the stone age
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09:27<narf0>planetmaker okay, what would this error mean: "no available language packs" ?
09:28<narf0>does it mean some files from lang or from data?
09:28<LordAro>probably lang
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09:29<@planetmaker>narf0: it means that you're missing the language files. I.e. the person who supplied the the binary didn't supply a proper openttd bundle as s/he should have done
09:29<narf0>funny, the person who made this wrote about this on a forum and he didnt gave any explanations. He said:
09:29<narf0>"You will need to put original ttd data files in e:\openttd\data\ directory. Memory card is required."
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09:30<narf0>planetmaker this binary works for people on the net (youtube videos including) :/
09:32<Levent>any1 have a contact with Mega that real name is arjan, founder of clanmega and hosted clanmega CDIS server? which one from dutchland? im erally searching him theese days.
09:32<@planetmaker>narf0: probably they copied it from some other installation. A procedure which is strongly discouraged
09:37<@planetmaker>Levent: they seem to have gone into somewhat a hiding. I haven't (conciously) heard / read from clanmega anthing in quite a while
09:39<@planetmaker>have you tried the obvious like the e-mail etc found on their websites?
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09:52<Levent>clanmega.2kool4u.net (our website) is no longer exists. and i dont have additional contact at the moment. but thanks. damn we was playing coolest openttd with coolest community :/ any CDIS running server you know?
09:53<@planetmaker>sorry, no
09:53<@planetmaker>I doubt even there's any around
09:54<@planetmaker>but the forum seems still to be online
09:54<@planetmaker>though interestingly I get a warning from my FF extension 'web of trust' that that page has a bad fame ;-)
09:55-!-Pixa [~Pixa@79-68-109-222.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd
09:56<@planetmaker>http://www.mywot.com/en/scorecard/clanmega.2kool4u.net
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10:12<@peter1138>heh
10:12<@peter1138>CDIS?
10:13<@planetmaker>peter1138: cargodist + infra sharing
10:15<narf0>planetmaker I would like to speak to the person which made the symbian port, he's nick is Wolf. Do you know him maybe?
10:22<@planetmaker>there's sometimes a wolf here. But I've no clue whether he's the author or not
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10:30<narf0>How can this be so complicated for me yet nearly everyone interested on this forum has runned this game without no problems
10:32<@planetmaker>did you try to just copy the files to the required paths yourself?
10:33<Ammler> "... without no problems"
10:34<@planetmaker>:-D
10:47<narf0>*without problems
10:48<narf0>planetmaker as I said before the author didn't say about where to place stuff
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>if the binary creator did not screw up things too much, the directory structure from the readme should apply
10:55<narf0>it's not like the one in readme because openttd.cfg supose to be in the same dir as data and gm
10:55<narf0>okay so i understand why is this not supported
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11:03<Ammler>narf0: there are different possible locations for the cfg
11:03<narf0>Ammler yeah i know, okay i have no idea how shuld this be setup
11:04<narf0>as i said, wolf wasn't so kind to explain installation procedure i more than a few words.
11:04<Ammler>what error do you get, when you start openttd
11:05<narf0>either that there are no lang files or no sound files, and all's in place
11:05<Ammler>where is opengfx?
11:06<narf0>im using the files from the dos game
11:06<narf0>i thought it will wokr then
11:06<Ammler>try with opengfx first
11:06<narf0>okay i'll start by reinstaling the app in the phone.
11:11<narf0>Ammler so as i have the game installed on linux, just copy whole /usr/share/openttd/data ?
11:11<Ammler>no
11:12<narf0>(i have openttd installed + opengfx + opensfx + open midi music)
11:12<Ammler>use the zip
11:12<narf0>what zip?
11:12<Ammler>I assume, it is linked on the symbian thread?
11:12<narf0>theres no zip there
11:12<narf0>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=35942&hilit=symbian+language
11:13<@planetmaker>@ports
11:13<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
11:13<narf0>there's only symbian instalation package file (sis)
11:13<Ammler>openttd.sisx
11:14<narf0>are the snd files optional
11:14<narf0>ok by the way, the installer created 'data' for me with some stuff
11:14<narf0>only left gm empty
11:14<narf0>gm is optional?
11:15<Ammler>"You will need to put original ttd data files in e:\openttd\data\ directory. Memory card is required."
11:15<@planetmaker>the only thing additionally needed is a graphics base set
11:16<Ammler>but I assume, you could also use ogfx
11:16<Ammler>(but unpacked)
11:17<Ammler>hmm, is symbian dos based?
11:17<Ammler>or how come that strange path?
11:18<Ammler>and btw., it is not the same wolf which is on irc
11:18<narf0>i have data dir with files: openttdd.grf, openttdw.grf, opntitle.dat, orig_dos_de.obg, orig_dos.obg, orig_dos.obs, oig_win.obg, orig_win.obs
11:18<narf0>enough?
11:18<@planetmaker>no
11:18<narf0>symbian is based on a os called epoch
11:18<@planetmaker>you're missing a graphics base set
11:18<narf0>which is what?
11:19<@planetmaker>OpenGFX or TTD-original
11:19<MNIM>why have they not included opengfx standard?
11:20<Ammler>that would double the package size
11:20<narf0>opengfx.obg opensfx.cat opensfx.obs ogfxt_toyland.grf ogfxi_logos.grf no_sound.obs ogfx1_base.grf ogfxc_arctic.grf ogfxe_extra.grf ogfxh_tropical.grf
11:20<narf0>these?
11:20<MNIM>well yeah, but 50% package with 0% functionality is a 100% waste
11:21<Ammler>and then others ask why isn't OpenSFX packed in, that would trible the size
11:21<@Alberth>more like triple or quadruple
11:21<+glx>opengfx won't work for this version I think
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11:21<MNIM>you don't need the sfx, but you will need gfx
11:21<+glx>clue being openttdd and openttdw
11:21<@Alberth>MNIM: but most people update from the previous version, and they don't need the graphics
11:22<Ammler>glx: that is quite far apart :-)
11:22<narf0>okay what should i copy then?
11:22<MNIM>oh wait, I think Im getting too used to linux
11:22<MNIM>I was gonna say "yeah duh, just add it to the dependencies"
11:23<Ammler>where it is
11:23<narf0>maybe this: Sample.cat trg1r.grf trgcr.grf trghr.grf trgir.grf trgtr.grf ?
11:23<Ammler>else you should report that to your distro package maintainer
11:23<MNIM>it's optional in my buntu, I think
11:23<Ammler>it should be at least recommend
11:24<+glx>narf0: sample.cat and trg* yes
11:24<@Alberth>narf0: those are copyrighted
11:24<MNIM>well, so is opengfx. ;)
11:24<+glx>or opengfx but not the latest version
11:24<Ammler>glx: support for opengfx is in since 0.7? openttd.grf is in 1.2 only?
11:25<narf0>Alberth well cool dude, so I'll copy the opengfx ones right?
11:25<MNIM>Hmmmmh.
11:25<+glx>Ammler: openttdd and openttdw (before it was replaced by extra)
11:25<MNIM>what do you thinK?
11:25<@Alberth>you make me happy
11:25<MNIM>should I watch james bond or LOTR?
11:27<narf0>what are music files?
11:27<narf0>midis?
11:27<Ammler>glx: replaced by extra?
11:27<narf0>ok i know
11:28<Ammler>openttdd.grf and w is replaced by openttd.grf (always use dos)
11:28<+glx>there was a dos and windows version for extra (openttdd.grf and openttdw.grf)
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11:29<narf0>Do .gm files go to data directory or gm directory?
11:29<+glx>in gm
11:29<narf0>thanks
11:31<@planetmaker>glx: and now it's called just openttd.grf ;-)
11:31<+glx>right, but maybe some stuff was added/changed after the dos/windows merge
11:32<@planetmaker>quite certainly
11:32<narf0>okay thanks for help everyone, guess I'll have to play on my netbook.
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11:32<+glx>so a recent ogfx could fail for an older openttd version
11:33<@planetmaker>no, not really
11:33<@planetmaker>why should it?
11:33<+glx>I say could
11:33<@planetmaker>well, why?
11:33-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
11:33<@planetmaker>the base set definitions didn't change and OpenTTD ignores unknown action5 sprites
11:34<@planetmaker>that has nothing to do with the openttdw / openttdd change
11:34<@planetmaker>which only affects users of the TTD base set
11:34<V453000> \o/
11:35<narf0>lol the game loaded Oo
11:35<+glx>so it works
11:35<+glx>if you see intro it's ok
11:36<@planetmaker>the important change between 0.7.x and 1.0.x is the introduction of base sound sets (and music sets), thus sample.cat is not needed for 1.0.0 and later
11:36<narf0>once again i'm learning the architecture of something just to run it :D
11:37<narf0>Not to mention i learned how is midi working on linux to have music :)
11:38<Rubidium>any proper linux distribution installs everything needed when you install openttd via their package manager
11:39<narf0>nope
11:39<narf0>archlinux
11:39<Rubidium>so it's not one that's done properly
11:39<narf0>the whole midi thing (150+ MB) is not a dependency i guess
11:40<narf0>It's actually one of the best distributions.
11:41<narf0>It's just universal so nothing is built in. On ubuntu you also need to install the midi soft syntetiser
11:42<Rubidium>narf0: Gentoo is the one where nothing is built in
11:43<Rubidium>e.g. for archlinux openttd you still need to get e.g. libicu (which is like 20+ MiB)
11:43<narf0>Rubidium Arch too, from the start it has the kernel, modules, startup scripts, some development tools, basic stuff like networking tools
11:43<narf0>bare bones
11:44<narf0>Rubidium i didnt need libicu
11:44<Rubidium>but to install openttd on archlinux you still need to install icu
11:44<narf0>I didnt notice
11:44<Rubidium>or at least if you take archlinux's OpenTTD binary
11:45<narf0>Depends On : libpng sdl icu fontconfig lzo2 hicolor-icon-theme desktop-file-utils
11:45<narf0>oh, yep, there we have it
11:46<narf0>of cource i have the binary distribution, thats way quicker than compiling :)
11:46<Rubidium>in Debian/Ubuntu it would recommend opengfx and opensfx so they are (generally) installed as well, but you can choose to not install them
11:46<narf0>so is on arch
11:46<narf0>Depends On : libpng sdl icu fontconfig lzo2 hicolor-icon-theme desktop-file-utils
11:46<Rubidium>so why doesn't it make use of it?
11:47<narf0>Optional Deps : openttd-opengfx: free graphics openttd-opensfx: free soundset
11:47<narf0>it does it does, im using it
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11:48<Rubidium>then why all the discussion about when to install those things?
11:48<narf0>what discusion?
11:49<Rubidium>e.g. the listing of a number of files and asking whether it's enough
11:50<narf0>i was talking about symbian port
11:50<narf0>i have bi problems with the linux version'
11:50<narf0>*no
11:50<Rubidium>isn't that ancient?
11:51<narf0>What?
11:51<Rubidium>the symbian port
11:51<narf0>It is.
11:51<narf0>I was looking for some fun things to do with my nokia
11:54-!-Chrill [~chrischri@h-5-149.a212.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
11:56<narf0>The game's fairly playable, it's a little hard with this low resolution though (320x240)
11:59<@planetmaker>with new(er) versions that'd be a problem with the newgrf config dialogue
11:59<@planetmaker>and the multiplayer join dialogue
11:59<narf0>it doesnt support multiplayer
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12:01<narf0>nope it's unplayable, waste of time and battery :
12:01<narf0>:)
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12:09<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22670 /trunk/src/landscape.cpp: -Change: Do not spawn explosion effects when bulldozing in paused mode. They block the view.
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12:18<andythenorth>so 'normal' players can't change grf parameters during gameplay?
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>yep
12:19<andythenorth>hmm
12:19<andythenorth>that means (e.g.) if you find HEQS running costs are too high, you just lose your game :P
12:19<andythenorth>or can't use HEQS in it
12:20<andythenorth>maybe these cost parameters are a flawed idea
12:20-!-perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd
12:21<andythenorth>costs seem to be an area beset with difficulties
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12:33<@planetmaker>they aren't a bad idea. But they should be balanaced against default vehicles
12:33<andythenorth> I did think of working out some kind of baselines
12:33<@planetmaker>then a one-time setting of base costs solves any issue instead of having the player configure it for every newgrf specifically
12:33<andythenorth>in cost-per-ton-per-speedunit
12:33<@planetmaker>base line = default vehicles.
12:34<@planetmaker>anything else is not a base line really, but yet another "my idea on costs rulez" thing
12:34<andythenorth>hmm
12:34<andythenorth>it's quite unsatisfactory at the moment.
12:34<andythenorth>but at least better than when every grf could mess with every other grf :)
12:34<@planetmaker>note: I don't say that default cost balance is better than any other. But it's there and it's a kind of common standard
12:35<@planetmaker>And I only argue for default settings to match them
12:35<@planetmaker>players being able to choose differently... probably a good idea
12:36<@planetmaker>But I'd like indeed one global switch to adjust price levels
12:37<@planetmaker>actually... within one grf the cost-to-performance balance you just stated might still make sense
12:37<@planetmaker>as it surely can be adjusted to default vehicle levels
12:38<andythenorth>I would have thought so
12:38<andythenorth>costs are already just a ratio, not actual cost
12:38<andythenorth>maybe we should peg it to the same measures used for the cargo payment graphs
12:39<andythenorth>it would need to be factored for flat vs. terrain
12:39<andythenorth>that is tricksy
12:40<@planetmaker>Why would vehicle costs need to consider the terrain?
12:40<@planetmaker>That sounds like at least one level of over-engineering
12:40<andythenorth>they don't
12:40<@planetmaker>ok :-)
12:40<andythenorth>I was thinking about cost-per-ton-per-speedunit
12:40<andythenorth>but speedunit varies by slope
12:40<@planetmaker>sounds awefully complicated
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12:41<@planetmaker>especially as it fails as soon as people change the slope ingame ;-)
12:41<@planetmaker>or maybe already when changed away from default prior to start - not sure whether that variable can be newgrf-read
12:41<andythenorth>your basic RL transport cost is usually expressed in terms of cost-per-tonmile
12:42<andythenorth>but you also need to consider the ruling grade on the route
12:42<andythenorth>which defines the hp-per-ton required
12:42-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
12:42<andythenorth>and then you'll get a transit time for the route, which matters for time-sensitive cargo
12:42<andythenorth>I am thinking about charts, not setting costs now :)
12:43<andythenorth>trying to think how to compare vehicles *across* different sets
12:43<@planetmaker>ok... and the issue you try to solve or visualize?
12:43<@planetmaker>ah, ok
12:43<andythenorth>so is HEQS dump truck better or worse than eGRVTs highway truck etc
12:43<andythenorth>probably way too detailed for gameplay
12:44<@planetmaker>well, there's two things: purchase price / vehicle lifetime; cargo price * capacity / running costs * speed
12:44<@planetmaker>or something like that
12:44<andythenorth>yup
12:45<@planetmaker>one might factor in also refittability. Track type (--> infrastructure costs)
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>infrastructure costs heavily depend on the amount of vehicles
12:46<supermop>well if heqs lets you drive on cheaper roads, they should cost more. but at present that's not possible
12:47<@planetmaker>why should they cost more?
12:47<@planetmaker>they're slow
12:47<supermop>those big bumpy tires
12:47<@planetmaker>the difficulty in balancing things is that it's not a simple two-point scaling issue
12:48<andythenorth>it's n dimensional
12:48<andythenorth>:P
12:48<@planetmaker>quite so, yes
12:48<andythenorth>and varies by every combination of grfs a player might want
12:48<andythenorth>plus their taste for difficulty
12:48<@planetmaker>also. Though the taste for difficulty can IMHO be adjusted by other grfs and means than the vehicle grfs themselves
12:49<@planetmaker>and should actually
12:49<andythenorth>maybe Oz Trans has it right with can world
12:49<andythenorth>:P
12:50<@planetmaker>well, who cares?
12:51*andythenorth does
12:51<andythenorth>somewhat
12:52<@planetmaker>IMHO the last statement made clear again that it's better to not care ;-)
12:52<@planetmaker>(of his)
12:53<@planetmaker>and that all the work put into that set will be mostly wasted work
12:53<andythenorth>hmm
12:53<narf0>Can I rotate in ttd?
12:53<andythenorth>are we going to take over eGRVTS?
12:53<narf0>i mean in 90 deg steps
12:53<andythenorth>the license allows
12:53<andythenorth>and it's been broken too long
12:54<@planetmaker>andythenorth: I don't think that'll be an issue. Zephyris certainly would not mind. Just ask him
12:54<@planetmaker>He'll be helpful and glad, I guess
12:54<andythenorth>I already did :)
12:54<@planetmaker>ok :-)
12:54<andythenorth>it would need converting to nml
12:54<@planetmaker>he :-P
12:55<andythenorth>I am not maintaining raw, uncommented nfo :P
12:55<@planetmaker>doesn't he have commented sources?
12:55<andythenorth>nope
12:55<@planetmaker>:-(
12:55<andythenorth>he prefers raw
12:55<andythenorth>use yexo's conversion script :P
12:56<@planetmaker>that'd be a way, surely. Though it might be easier to re-code it from scratch
12:57<@planetmaker>and just using the real sprites
12:57<@planetmaker>does he have at least the single sprites in single graphics files?
12:57<@planetmaker>*real sprites
12:58<andythenorth>not sure about that :)
12:58<andythenorth>grf2html can make them
12:58<@planetmaker>right :-)
12:58<@planetmaker>but that makes one file for each sprite
12:58<@planetmaker>which might be a lot. Or do I mis-remember here?
12:58<andythenorth>it would be a lot :)
12:59<@planetmaker>actually... if you dig in OpenGFX sources - you'll find the whole sprites in there :-P
12:59<@planetmaker>I got permission to fill in the remaining (toyland) vehicles from egrvts ;-)
12:59<@planetmaker>and made liberal use of that
13:00<@planetmaker>hm, still there: sprites/png/egrvts.png ;-)
13:01<@planetmaker>adding the whole png was easier than cutting everything
13:03<@planetmaker>let's say: I'd be all for an update of egrvts. But personally I can't commit to that project now
13:03<andythenorth>me neither :P
13:04<@planetmaker>:-)
13:05<@planetmaker>andythenorth: you keep your psds in your project in a separate dir, right? Which is not a sub-dir of src or sprites?
13:06<andythenorth>usually /graphics or such
13:06<andythenorth>or /graphics_sources
13:06<@planetmaker>hm, ok. I guess that can be made configurable
13:10<Ammler>[18:58] <andythenorth> grf2html can make them <-- not that easy, if grf is build with -c
---Logclosed Sun Jul 17 13:19:44 2011
---Logopened Sun Jul 17 13:19:53 2011
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13:19-!-Irssi: #openttd: Total of 115 nicks [7 ops, 0 halfops, 2 voices, 106 normal]
13:19<@planetmaker>use an aircraft grf which changes that
13:20-!-Netsplit resistance.oftc.net <-> weber.oftc.net quits: mikegrb, jonty-comp, tparker, devilsadvocate
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13:20<@planetmaker>like av8
13:21<@planetmaker>cets: update from r39 to r45 done (374 warnings) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cets/nightlies/r45 <-- @ Eddi|zuHause ;-)
13:21<@planetmaker>seems we have work to do in that respect
13:21-!-Irssi: Join to #openttd was synced in 126 secs
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>aye, it's kinda spammy with the incomplete swiss and austrian engines
13:21<@planetmaker>or JVassie especially wrt SBB
13:22<@planetmaker>:-D
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22671 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt korean.txt polish.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: czech - 4 changes by Harlequin
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: korean - 5 changes by telk5093
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: polish - 7 changes by wojteks86
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14:13*andythenorth had 48 hrs away from internets, and is thinking of repeating it :P
14:14<frosch123>it looked rather like 67 minutes to me
14:16<andythenorth>well maybe prior to that :P
14:17*andythenorth needs to draw those annoying river shores :|
14:20<@planetmaker>weren't they like 'done'?
14:22<Ammler>andythenorth: is never "done" :-)
14:22<andythenorth>I didn't do the ones for rivers appearing / disappearing into slopes
14:22<andythenorth>it's another 16 sprites
14:22<andythenorth>all need drawing with rocks and such
14:22*andythenorth plays dicewars instead
14:27<@planetmaker>andythenorth: are you sure those sprites are needed at all?
14:27<andythenorth>last time discussed, the answer was "yes"
14:27<andythenorth>apparently it's valid to have rivers on slopes :P
14:28<Ammler>I would rather like diagonal rivers :-P
14:29<andythenorth>Ammler: I am prepared to draw those
14:29<andythenorth>without them, rivers suck
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14:41*andythenorth considers playing the game
14:43<opa>whou, someone actually *plays* the game there, not just developes something for it ;)
14:43<andythenorth>I keep losing
14:43<andythenorth>last three games, bankrupt :(
14:43<andythenorth>not sure how to win
14:44*andythenorth considers setting costs to 'low'
14:44<andythenorth>seems like cheating
14:45<narf0>bye
14:45-!-narf0 [~narf@178-36-91-49.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving]
14:45*andythenorth plays YACD, TAI, UKRS 2
14:45<andythenorth>the rules are 'PAX only'
14:46<andythenorth>but I can only survive with coal
14:48<@planetmaker>calls for a change in the rules ;-)
14:49<@planetmaker>though TAI might be the crucial issue
14:49<@planetmaker>and... RVs might help ;-)
14:50<andythenorth>no good RVs in 1890 :(
14:50<@planetmaker>:-)
14:51*frosch123 plays "make the inhabitants of rüsselsbrücken burst due to too many sweets and drinks"
14:51<@planetmaker>*that* might be the main issue then
14:51<@planetmaker>hehe
14:54<andythenorth>ooh
14:54<andythenorth>FIRS nightly is broken :)
14:54<andythenorth>brewery is producing ENSP
14:54<andythenorth>from stone, fruit and grain
14:54<andythenorth>how excitink
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14:57*V453000 gives frosch123 respect for playing the almighty and awesome TOYLAND :)
14:59<frosch123>since ogfx i have to catch up with all the years not being able to play it :)
14:59*andythenorth gives up trying to play the game :P
15:11*LordAro always liked the toylands 'Maddogs toyshop' (or whatever it's called)
15:11*V453000 takes all the respect back when seeing replacing the amazing artwork of original toyland with opengfx
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15:19<supermop>the brewery makes beer, which makes miners work harder?
15:19<frosch123>V453000: why? the fizzy drink factory and toy factory are a lot nicer in ogfx
15:19<V453000>100% disagree
15:20<V453000>zero detail, just like in majority of opengfx
15:20<supermop>ttd gfx are too noisey
15:20<V453000>but very detailed
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15:25<V453000>anyway, I have a question: is it possible to make an articulated wagon that would be 1 tile long and bend in the middle into 2 parts?
15:25<frosch123>yes
15:26<V453000>* I meant half tile long ... just like "standard" wagons
15:26<frosch123>yes
15:26<V453000>:) tthanks
15:27<frosch123>it's interesting that you unrealistic approach results in short bendy wagons, while the realism guys want long non-bendy wagons :p
15:27<V453000>I dont care about any real, just considering what would be useful
15:28<V453000>I want to have all wagons long 0.5 tiles because other lengths tend to have various errors with depot counters etc
15:28<V453000>resulting in quite unpredictable and sad issues with curve lengths and so on
15:28<V453000>but at the same time I think it would be cute to have the wagons shorter
15:28<V453000>so something like the "double" wagon would fit
15:29-!-sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:29<V453000>plus shorter wagons = nicer look when trains are turning :)
15:29<frosch123>that's not necessarily true as long as that specific fs task is open
15:30<V453000>I had a feeling like it is rather hardly fixable
15:30<frosch123>currently 4/8 wagons turn around the spot at the back, not their center
15:31<frosch123>sure it is fixable, savegame conversion is the hard part
15:31<V453000>mhm :)
15:31<V453000>but still
15:31<V453000>having all wagons 0.5 tile long makes it just nice and simple
15:32<V453000>when I play with a train set that has shorter wagons, I literally _never_ know how many wagons to place there so I just click until I overflow the desired train length and then remove one wagon
15:32<V453000>until it just hits for example 3.0 which does not happen always x.x
15:35<Ammler>I also prefer adjacent wagons instead 1tile wagon
15:35<Ammler>it looks like a nice feature, but not sure, if it improves game style
15:38<V453000>it wouldnt change anything really
15:38<V453000>I would just feel like it is more comfortable to play with simplier values
15:46*andythenorth loses dicewars
15:55*andythenorth loses dicewars
15:58*andythenorth loses dicewars
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15:59<V453000>lol :)
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16:01*andythenorth loses dicewars
16:01*andythenorth is fed up of dicewars
16:01<MNIM>you loose at life!
16:09<andythenorth>hmm
16:10<andythenorth>planetmaker: do you have time to confirm the FIRS cargos bug?
16:10<andythenorth>from reading the code, I can't see any cause of it
16:16<@planetmaker>what's the "firs cargo bug"?
16:17<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2864
16:19<@planetmaker>maybe a result of wrong replacement rules
16:19<@planetmaker>in either industries or industry tiles
16:19<andythenorth>I read the code for some affected industries
16:19<andythenorth>it looks correct
16:19<andythenorth>I must miss something
16:20<@planetmaker>also for the tiles?
16:21<andythenorth>hmm
16:22<andythenorth>the tiles look correct too
16:22<andythenorth>maybe it's a YACD bug
16:23*andythenorth tests trunk
16:23<andythenorth>present also present in trunk
16:24<@planetmaker>hm... I have uncommited but faulty changes locally ;-)
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16:31<@planetmaker>andythenorth: confirmed. Looks all bogus
16:31<andythenorth>I can't see why
16:32<andythenorth>looking at the brewery - all cargos look correct
16:32<andythenorth>looking at the cargos, definitions look ok
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16:36<@planetmaker>hm... recycling depot doesn't accept or produce *anything*
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16:47<@planetmaker>andythenorth: recycling depot (only) produced recyclables?
16:47<andythenorth>yes
16:47<@planetmaker>(or rather: should)
16:47<@planetmaker>ok. hm
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16:56<andythenorth>planetmaker: I can't see it :)
16:56<andythenorth>the bug
16:56<andythenorth>in the code :P
16:58*andythenorth -> bed time
16:58<andythenorth>good night
16:58<@planetmaker>g'night. I don't see it either
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17:01<Eddi|zuHause>hm, there are two approaches now: a) patch the articulated callback to allow higher engine IDs, or making the articulated parts independent from the front vehicle, and using a 60+ variable (that i already implemented) to check the front vehicle id from the articulated part
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>the second variant means we have one or more special articulated vehicles that have huge varaction2 chains to select the graphics
17:04<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/grfv8/40_32bit_parameter_esp_var60.diff <- maybe i should just commit that :p
17:05<frosch123>oh crap, confused the patches
17:05<frosch123>the articulated one actually depends on the version bump
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>you mean the one that comes after the dbset release? :p
17:06<frosch123>it's 30
17:06<frosch123>but it needs the bump
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>you could make a misc grf flag and allow 14 bits vehicle id in the articulated callback, moving the "reverse" bit to bit 15
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>then it doesn't need a bump
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>not sure how useful that will actually be, since there's still 2 bits of the 16 bit vehicle id that can't be returned
17:10<frosch123>pff, you cannot switch directly to animation frames 0xfd to 0xff either
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17:11<frosch123>the grf specs are full of special values which restrict the total range of something more general
17:11-!-tparker [~tparker@beacon.nj.ithybia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:12<frosch123>though they are no real restrictions
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>[Di Jan 30 2007] [23:02:22] <Eddi|zuHause2> newgrfs sound like some dirty hack that then gets abused as much as possible
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>this is probably more true than ever :p
17:14<frosch123>well, the roots are a dirty hack that abused ttd memory locations as much as possible
17:15<frosch123>store this value at that memory location, and the vehicle will be faster
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but with the increased flexibility of openttd, the abuses just got bigger :p
17:16<frosch123>well yes, it has always been the goal to add abstract generic stuff, which can be used for whatever the author comes up with
17:16<frosch123>instead of a few presets and then coding everything in ottd
17:20-!-tparker [~tparker@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe93:9541] has joined #openttd
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>apparently something happened right now...
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17:22*frosch123 concludes the world has not ended then
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>looks like japan defeated the USA... so something close ;)
17:26<frosch123>night
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17:27<@Terkhen>good night
17:37<@planetmaker>g'night Terkhen & all others
17:40<@peter1138>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3Ve-_4Xz5M
17:40<@peter1138>i think that needs some kind of explanation
17:43*Rubidium wonders whether that's one of those Japanese text-to-speech "singers"
17:44<@peter1138>vocaloid, so i guess so
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18:47<Eddi|zuHause>"Microsoft developer K. Y. Srinivasan leads the list of contributors to the linux kernel 3.0"
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>so the world DID end?
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19:00<__ln__>besides that, even Microsoft is ahead of Canonical on that list.
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19:25<Eddi|zuHause>wtf? traffic light suggestion: "please allow placing no traffic lights"?!?
19:27<supermop>not allowed!
19:27<supermop>you must place traffic lights
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>no, the suggestion was like "when placing traffic light, place only stop signs in 'rural' areas"
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>which kinda defeats the point
19:29<supermop>hmm
19:30<supermop>i guess you could use signs to force vehicles to yield?
19:30<supermop>not sure it it would make a difference in the game
19:30<supermop>i guess it would look cute
19:31<supermop>i think that would be better handled with roadtypes: vehicle entering faster road from slower road yields to vehicles already on faster road
19:32<supermop>or
19:32<supermop>no gameplay effect, but draw yield or stop signs at junctions of different road types
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>there is absolutely no concept of "yielding" in the game
19:33<supermop>yeah
19:33<supermop>im not sure if it would even help if there were
19:34<supermop>i guess if you had realistic acceleration and roadtypes, you might not want a vehicle to pull out at 10 mph onto a 60mph highway, causing the vehicle behind to brake heavily
19:34<supermop>but thats so far off from what we have now
19:35<supermop>better to have road grfs draw fake stop signs that do nothing
19:37<supermop>or draw traffic lights that look like stop signs but behave like lights?
19:37<supermop>i dont really care too much about the issue
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---Logclosed Mon Jul 18 00:00:02 2011