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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-07-18

---Logopened Mon Jul 18 00:00:02 2011
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02:39<@Terkhen>good morning
02:39<andythenorth>hola
02:40<@planetmaker>salut
02:42<__ln__>доброе утро
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05:29<Eddi|zuHause>wow. HE actually announced a release date...
05:29<@peter1138>?
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>"DBXL 0.9 [...] (möglichst) am 11.11.2011."
05:32<@peter1138>but that's minecraft day!
05:33<@Alberth>and it is not version 0.11
05:33<@peter1138>nor 2011
05:34<@Alberth>the year 1111 has somewhat past already :p
05:34<Eddi|zuHause>waiting for the 22.2.2222 is kinda... long ;)
05:35<@Alberth>and too many things will happen at that date :)
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>11.11. is typically the start of carneval season
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05:47<pugi>KÖLLE ALAAF!
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>go. away.
05:50<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you're speaking to me? :P Seems a bit harsh
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08:46<@Belugas>hello
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09:51<__ln__>http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/full-screen.html
09:51<@planetmaker>:-)
09:51<@planetmaker>I always wonder(ed) what's so new about that
09:52<@planetmaker>But I guess some API changes will need taking care of
09:52<andythenorth>lion isn't out yet?
09:52<@planetmaker>nope
09:52<@planetmaker>at least not here
09:53<andythenorth>I would have to get snow leopard first
09:53<@planetmaker>:-)
09:53<andythenorth>I don't know if I can be arsed :P
09:53<andythenorth>if any ottd things stop working, I'm too lazy to fix...
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i could use the engine template graphics for the different lengths right about now
09:54<@planetmaker>they're in some issue for cets, aren't they?
09:54<@planetmaker>at least 16/8 and 12/8
09:58<@Terkhen>heh :P
09:59<@planetmaker>which reminds me... I should get a new HDD to test lion when it comes out :-)
09:59<@peter1138>apt-get upgrade
09:59<@planetmaker>I never do system upgrades ;-)
10:00<@planetmaker>I swap HDDs and use the old one as backup
10:00<@planetmaker>too much time too easily killed with failed upgrades
10:01<supermop>what is the height limit for sprites?
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10:02<@planetmaker>256
10:02<@planetmaker>or similar
10:03<supermop>is that from lowest point on the tile to highest point of the sprite? or along the side of the bounding box?
10:04<supermop>yesss
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>i think from the highest point of the tile to the highest point of the sprite
10:04<supermop>first day ive heard cicadas outside
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>and a hard limit of 512 or so
10:04<supermop>but that will have trouble rendering?
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>but actually that is just a guess
10:05<andythenorth>planetmaker: that will cost me 2 hds
10:05<andythenorth>one for snow leopard upgrade, one for lion :P
10:07<@planetmaker>well ;-)
10:07<supermop>want to draw this guy for practice drawing glazing:
10:07<supermop>http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2009/03/20/realestate/22posting2.ready.html
10:07<@planetmaker>in that case probably hardly, if you're still at leopard
10:08<supermop>but i'll need to caricature its proportions a bit
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10:09<MNIM>you always need to juggle proportions in ttd
10:09<supermop>not sure if i should just make it shorter, or shrink it so that each box is only 1-2 floors
10:09<supermop>instead of 5
10:10<supermop>hmm its a nice day, maybe i will go sit in madison square and sketch it in person
10:10<supermop>anyway
10:10<supermop>not sure how to handle two different colors of reflected glazing
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10:12<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i meant for all prospected lengths
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: and afair the 12lu template was really poorly done
10:15<@planetmaker>yes, it's not great
10:16<@planetmaker>but it's a template, "the vehicle" need not look good
10:16<@planetmaker>and as template it's just as good as the 16/8
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i think the second sprite from the right was missed in the shortening
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10:27<Eddi|zuHause>i think i broke it: Error: (AssertionError) "No unique number available".
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>(although i'm pretty certain triggering an assertion there is not right)
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10:40<Eddi|zuHause>here's my current version that i tried to compile: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/cets.nml (1.3MB)
10:44<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, where do you get that assertion?
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>during "nmlc cets.nml" step
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>with the above file
10:44<@planetmaker>that's not in the repo?
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>no, i didn't check it in yet
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10:50<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i pushed it now, but it's broken...
10:51<@planetmaker>well... that smells like action2 or action1 entries are exhausted...
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes. question is can we do something to solve that
10:53<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know enough about the nml internals to get an overview about how it fails
10:55<Hirundo>Judging by the stack trace (-s option), it fails in the actionD
10:57<Hirundo>You seem to have too many named parameters
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>hm... where do those come from?
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i may have an idea to restructure things
10:59<Hirundo>http://pastebin.com/mKjM0inq <- it errors at the 65th
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>it's likely a failure of NML to optimize out constant expressions
11:07<Hirundo>NML doesn't detect that named params are a constant
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>exactly
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11:09<Hirundo>Parameter handling is on my todo-list, other stuff currently has a higher priority though
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>i think i worked around it now.
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>great. i'm at the point of crashing openttd now :p
11:25<supermop>would you guys say that all large buildings should have cc accents for vareity, or only a few?
11:27<andythenorth>a majority
11:27<andythenorth>but not all
11:27<supermop>this one is all glasses, short of cc glass, cant think of any areas to color
11:28<supermop>flag?
11:28<supermop>also, if i draw 4 rotateions, can the game randomly pick one to use?
11:28<supermop>gah cannot type
11:28<supermop>rotations
11:29<supermop>or can one face always face the street?
11:32<@Belugas>if i remember correctly, for a certain building, the game only applies random colour
11:33<@Belugas>as much as building itself, it might trhough some callbacks (but do't mark my words on it)
11:38<supermop>can a building choose multiple random sprites from a list?
11:39<@planetmaker>yes
11:39<supermop>so if i want to simulate say, two townhouses sharing a tile,
11:40<@planetmaker>you basically can do anything you want. You can read neighboring tiles and their animation state
11:40<supermop>it can randomly a 1x0.5 tile sprite for the left half, the randomly pick another for the right half
11:41<@planetmaker>yes.
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i can't get this right today. must continue later.
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11:44<Eddi|zuHause>if anyone is interested: crash log and grf: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/crash.log www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/cets.grf happened when buying a vehicle (BR 01)
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12:41<Hirundo>Eddi|zuHause: Cannot reproduce here
12:45<Hirundo>What modifications did you make to ottd?
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13:13<andythenorth>hmm
13:13<andythenorth>there are now quite long specs for 'how we should remake all the settings'
13:13<andythenorth>but they're all words
13:13<andythenorth>:P
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13:21<@Alberth>yep, some people like to discuss ad infinitum
13:21<andythenorth>I suggest pictures :P
13:22<andythenorth>writing GUI specs in words seems....perverse
13:22<@planetmaker>didn't we have that? pictures?
13:22<andythenorth>yarp
13:22<andythenorth>lets do it as a project for christmas
13:23<@planetmaker>andythenorth: you mean... GUI in words like there: http://wiki.openttd.org/Planetmaker/v2#GUI: :P ?
13:23<andythenorth>that's valid words
13:23<andythenorth>it shows structure and such
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13:41<Wolf01>hello
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22672 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt german.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: czech - 4 changes by Harlequin
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: german - 5 changes by planetmaker
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14:17<supermop>hey andy
14:17<supermop>how would you draw black mirror glass?
14:17<andythenorth>by looking at how simon foster did it :P
14:18<andythenorth>mirror is instantly a problem :P
14:20<supermop>this building has dark purpley brown glass, and light green mirror glass, so i need to differentiate
14:20<supermop>the green glass is more normal in color, which would make it purple in tt
14:21<supermop>but then the dark glass needs to be even more purple
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14:21<@planetmaker>two different glass effects is quite difficult
14:21<@planetmaker>the glass effect on stations for example is done by means of the proper recolour thingy
14:22<supermop>yeah,
14:22<supermop>but neither of these can be transparent
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14:23<supermop>and in real life, the purple-brown glass changes color throughout the day with the sky, but due to the isometric angle in TT, vertical glass cannot reflect any 'sky' color
14:24<supermop>but iit cannot reflect the ground, as i have no idea what it will be next to
14:25<@Belugas>just... fantasize
14:25<@Belugas>and don't base yourself on... real life
14:25<Chris_Booth>or shine lights on it from the base
14:25<Chris_Booth>so there would be no reflection
14:26<Chris_Booth>that would be quite a cool effect
14:26<andythenorth> supermop there are plenty of examples in ttd graphics
14:27<supermop>modifying this building's base to look like a Gwathmey building, even though i hate Gwathmeys
14:27<andythenorth>in tropic there's a blue tower, and a concrete tower which should give clues
14:27<supermop>because it looks better in pixels
14:28<andythenorth>the blue tower has satellites on it
14:28<andythenorth>you just need to use highlight for the mirrored windows, and dark for the rest
14:28<andythenorth>use the normal purple shades
14:30<supermop>i need a purple like nissan is using on the new GT-Rs
14:30<supermop>that would be perfect
14:33<Chris_Booth>no you need some of those TVR colours that change at different agnles you look at them
14:34<supermop>the gtr paint does that, just very subtlety
14:34<supermop>from dark purple to warm purple
14:35<supermop>drawing this:
14:35<supermop>http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ml9vub3JGHU/SDeJx456OdI/AAAAAAAAAsM/TPNWjYytrHg/s1600-h/2008_5_onemadisondancezz.jpg
14:35<supermop>i think i will use cc construction fences instead of orange
14:36<Hirundo>drawing the foreground or background ;) ?
14:36<V453000>:DDD
14:37<supermop>its hard to find a picture of the west facade of the building.. thats one of the best ones out there
14:37<supermop>put i was able to go look at the south facade over lunch
14:39<supermop>should the glazing get lighter higher up the building, or stay uniform?
14:39<V453000>there was some building in the picture?
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14:49*frosch123 is once again shocked by remove tab completion
14:49<frosch123>*remote
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14:52<V453000>q: how do I indicate the maximum "safe" size of a sprite? In this case for a 0.5 tile wagon, but overall?
14:56<Eddi|zuHause><Hirundo> What modifications did you make to ottd? <- hm, i don't think i made any change that could cause this. from what i can gather my changes are: the var 60+ patch, the adjacent level crossing patch and the stuck counter patch. also some tgp debug code, some random setting default values, and something about trying to get "rcon command params" to work without additional quotes. the var 60+ patch is found here: http://www.tt-forums.
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=51697
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>argh
14:56<frosch123>what is the "safe" size of a sprite?
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=51697
14:57<V453000>frosch123: I think I read from george somewhere that openttd accepts even "larger" sprites but these could glitch ... I am trying to get my head over a maximum size which does not glitch
14:58<frosch123>oh, you mean the "Z height" of a vehicle?
14:58<V453000>all X Y Z
14:58<V453000>or ... sprite X Y in this case :D
14:58<frosch123>just use the usual vehicle templates
14:58<V453000>where can I get those?
14:59<frosch123>somewhere on the devzone, on pikka's wiki, in the old newgrf specs
14:59<frosch123>(different versions of different guys)
15:00<V453000>oh right :) I will check that out, thanks!
15:00<andythenorth>use the pikka templates from pikka wiki
15:00<@planetmaker>V453000: I suggest to dig OpenGFX+ Trains and OpenGFX+ RVs respectively ;-)
15:01<@planetmaker>there you get also the templates readily defined ;-)
15:01<V453000>*dig*dig*
15:01<V453000>thanks :P
15:01<V453000>andythenorth: I of course started there :P
15:02<Hirundo>Eddi|zuHause: I'd suggest to try with clean trunk
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, doing that right now
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15:29<supermop>could i use two layers of station roof transparency to make something extra dark?
15:29<andythenorth>iirc transparency is controllable that way yes
15:29<@planetmaker>my first monitor only knew two: black and white ;-)
15:29<andythenorth>the recolor sprites spec might tell you
15:30<@planetmaker>hm, wrong channel :-P
15:30<V453000>how does transparency work in openttd?
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15:31<V453000>or ... how do I gain it?
15:32<@planetmaker>you apply recolour sprite 0x322 ;-)
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15:33<@planetmaker>basically you have to define a colour translation table which translates every colour to what it appears through your transparent material
15:33<V453000>ohh I see
15:33<V453000>right that will be a pain :D
15:34<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> my first monitor only knew two: black and white ;-) <-- you mean black and green?
15:34<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: nope
15:34<V453000>but at least I had no idea it is possible before :P thanks pm
15:34<@planetmaker>V453000: you certainly have seen tubular bridges or glass stations?
15:34<andythenorth>some of them cheat
15:34<andythenorth>some just leave 1px gaps iirc
15:35<V453000>planetmaker: probably :) I had a feeling like it is done by making "every other pixel" missing
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15:35<V453000>as andy said :)
15:35<V453000>but yeah glass stations :)
15:36<Chris_Booth>beer time
15:36-!-XeryusTC2 is now known as XeryusTC
15:36<XeryusTC>yarr all
15:36<Chris_Booth>hi XeryusTC
15:36<V453000>hi
15:36<XeryusTC>watsup watsup?
15:37<Chris_Booth>the sky the sky!
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15:42<supermop>so does the translation table have to set the new color for each original color? or does it make every color one shade darker?
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>it's a table with 256 entries
15:53<supermop>ugh
15:53<supermop>sounds like a pain
15:55<frosch123>i would rather do that than drawing a vehicle in 8 orientations and 5 loading stages, a moving and a stopped stage
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15:55<frosch123>(80 sprites)
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>times three ;)
16:00<V453000>like for example the DB set livestock box cars? stopped = open doors if empty?
16:00<V453000>wait how is a stopped stage different from a moving one
16:01<frosch123>door opened/closed etc.
16:01<frosch123>though in some cases you do not see the loading stage in one of them
16:02<frosch123>well, stopped/moving is actually incorrect
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16:02<frosch123>it is loading/moving
16:02<V453000>:)
16:03<V453000>well it really depends on shape of the vehicle
16:03<V453000>box-like trains are quick, but some weird shapes are just such an endless pain
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16:24<narf0>Hi. It's not explained clearly in wiki, so i have a question about the block signal: what controlls if it is red or green
16:25<narf0>what's the algoritm?
16:26<Rubidium>something in block -> red, otherwise -> green
16:26<narf0>What is a block?
16:27<valhallasw>the free track from one signal to the next
16:27<Rubidium>do you know anything about electricity?
16:27<valhallasw>connected track*
16:28<narf0>is block defined as follows: "two track tiles are in same block if a train can ride from one point to another without going trough a signal"?
16:28<SpComb>any connected track
16:28<SpComb>even impossible track configurations (for trains driving through)
16:29<narf0>like two tracks forming a # ?
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>narf0: no, also switches which the train cannot take are considered connected
16:30<narf0>okay but it's a form of a floodfill between two signal tiles right?
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>yes
16:31<narf0>ok. if two tracks go in paralel not crossing each other, those don;t form a block?
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>right. only when they meet at one end, or cross some other way
16:31<narf0>*don't
16:32<narf0>stations and depots are also block terminators?
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>no. stations count as normal rail
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>depots have a signal built inside, so they do end a block
16:35<narf0>okay, so if i have a layout: [1]==x===x==[2], x - double side signal, both x's are opened, but ==x==[train]==x== bot closed ?
16:35<narf0>*both
16:35<narf0>forget [1], [2] :)
16:35<SpComb>having double signals like that is fail
16:35<narf0>SpComb I'm learning
16:37<+glx>learn path signal :)
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>i think you learn more by watching the AI and trying to recreate their styles
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>and yes, path signals are probably easier and more widely useful
16:38<narf0>I don't want to learn pre-definied layouts, i want to understand the algoritm and make my own.
16:42<@planetmaker>you'll do that once you look at how others build
16:43<narf0>I was looking for some designs on the wiki and I'm totally confused. I like to know how things work :)
16:43<frosch123>night
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16:44<narf0>I hope it's not a crime to ask (:
16:45<SpComb>narf0: make your own algorithm, in terms of code?
16:45<SpComb>or your own signal layots
16:45<narf0>SpComb i dont want to code anything, i just want to understand signals
16:45<SpComb>http://uwe.s2000.ws/ttdx/
16:45<narf0>I don't want to just copy images in the net.
16:46<SpComb>you can ignore the ye olde TTDPatch stuff
16:46<@planetmaker>then only trying yourself and toying with the options helps
16:47<@planetmaker>place a path signal where a train may be allowed to stop and only there.
16:47<@planetmaker>test layouts
16:47<@planetmaker>you won't learn by talking about to learn ;-)
16:47<narf0>SpComb thanks, i'll try it out
16:48<narf0>Also one thing: it;s hard to play with those tiny signal images
16:49<narf0>It's hard to identify them and tell their state, so it's hard to learn by playing
16:49<@planetmaker>the state is totally unimportant really
16:49<narf0>Though I was trying.
16:49<@planetmaker>as you can't change the state yourself anyway
16:50<narf0>planetmaker to learn by testing myself i need to see something
16:50<narf0>or I can watch if a train is stopping... well
16:50<@planetmaker>as said: care only about path signals
16:50<@planetmaker>and watch the flow
16:51<@planetmaker>don't even start to care about a signal state
16:51<@planetmaker>it's something totally out of your control anyway
16:52<@planetmaker>don't theorize on how they work. Play with them. Test how it works. Modify your layouts
16:53<@planetmaker>and - again - look at how other people on MP servers build. Build that. modify it in your company
16:54<@planetmaker>there's no single path to correct signaling
16:55<narf0>I just want my trains not to crash :)
16:55<@planetmaker>you trains will never crash
16:55<@planetmaker>unless your remove or turn signals
16:56<@planetmaker>or I should say modify signals
16:57<@planetmaker>if you only work on track sections where currently no train is running, they'll never crash
17:01<narf0>the trains can either work perfectly, or end up either crashing or blocking each other
17:01<narf0>i want them to work perfectly
17:03<@planetmaker>you didn't quite read what I wrote, eh?
17:04<narf0>I did and what about it?
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17:05<narf0>It wan't helpful, sorry.
17:06<@planetmaker>I understand. Sorry. I won't talk to you again.
17:13<narf0>planetmaker You can talk to me. I'm sorry if you felt offended. Anyway, thank you for your help.
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17:19<supermop>eh
17:20<supermop>i used the darkest purple, but its still too purple
17:22<@planetmaker>supermop: maybe use one of the more brownish colours
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17:32<Wolf01>'night
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17:50<supermop>ok
17:50<supermop>ive sort of made something
17:52<supermop>anyone care to take a look
17:52<supermop>?
17:54<Hirundo>if you post a link, there's always someone who clicks on it
17:56*SmatZ just got an n-th google+ invitation... wtf is that :x
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>it's not facebook
17:56<SmatZ>so it sucks?
17:57<SmatZ>or... "so it doesn't suck"
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>how should i know
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>i have used neither...
17:57<SmatZ>:)
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18:07<Eddi|zuHause>i suggest you read this further lecture: http://xkcd.com/918/
18:14<SmatZ>hahaha :-)
18:20<SmatZ>silly facebook
18:20<SmatZ>I was waiting for a reply to my message, expecting I will get an email notification about that
18:20<SmatZ>of course I didn't get any notification...
18:20<SmatZ>blah
18:20<SmatZ>email ftw
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>you don't get email notification for getting an email either :p
18:24<SmatZ>actually, most webmails allow you to configure such a rule, "send a message to some other email when an email is received"
18:24<SmatZ>I had even enabled SMS notifications
18:25<SmatZ>but I got bored of those "en1arg3 y0ur p3n1s" SMSs...
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19:16<supermop>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=54010&p=958071#p958071
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>very... purple...
19:18<supermop>yeah
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>and i think it's too high
19:18<supermop>why must windows be purple anyway?
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>should leave out one section
19:18<supermop>its exactly 256
19:19<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i meant it doesn't really fit optically...
19:21<supermop>i could make it shorter and thinner - right now its too fat
19:22<supermop>i want it to take the place of the cylinder building that hangs from two yellow poles
19:23<supermop>other than size,
19:24<supermop>what color glass do you prefer?
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>try making the pink more dark-ish brown
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>and in the lowest section the grey roof has some weird pixels sticking out
19:26<Eddi|zuHause>it's probably correct, but it looks odd
19:28<supermop>its supposed to be the railing of the roof terrace, but yeah it does look wierd
19:28<supermop>anything you would make cc?
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>no idea
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19:32<a_p3rson>is there a way to have a train wait for a full load of a certain cargo before departing a station?
19:33<Eddi|zuHause>no, you cannot choose a specific cargo. it's either all cargos, or the first cargo that is full
19:34<a_p3rson>would full load any cargo load get close to that?
19:34<Eddi|zuHause>(except planes, they ignore it when the mail is full, they always wait for passengers)
19:35<Eddi|zuHause>full load all => the train leaves when absolutely all cargos holds are full. full load any => train leaves when one cargo has been fully loaded
19:36<a_p3rson>ahhh ok
19:36<a_p3rson>would full load any wait for two cargos to full load, if present?
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>no
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>the first one that is full wins
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>it will load whatever is left of the second cargo, and then leave immediately
19:44<a_p3rson>ok
19:44<a_p3rson>and is there a way to have a vehicle skip a stop if it is full loaded of that kind of cargo?
19:45<a_p3rson>like one train makes multiple stops, but have it skip other stops if it is fully loaded?
19:49<Eddi|zuHause>you can make conditional orders, yes
19:49<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if you can choose a cargo type there
19:49<Eddi|zuHause>i guess rather not
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>check the wiki on conditional orders
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22:24<Chris_Booth>Beer!
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22:45<__ln__>good morning
23:01<supermop>hi
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23:30<cassie>can anyone help me with this?
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---Logclosed Tue Jul 19 00:00:05 2011