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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-07-19

---Logopened Tue Jul 19 00:00:05 2011
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03:08<V453000>hello :)
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03:52<@Terkhen>good morning
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05:09<@planetmaker>hello LordAro
05:09<LordAro>hi pm :)
05:09<@planetmaker>LordAro: there are time and again questions asked about 32bpp etc... Would you maybe care to write a nice posting which summarizes the requirements and where to actually get them from in like, say, 3 easy steps?
05:10<@planetmaker>Such posting, done comprehensively, could possibly be stickied then...
05:10<@planetmaker>and you then can say "didn't you read...?" :-P
05:14<@planetmaker> <-- how I loved that answer :-)
05:16<Eddi|zuHause>there once was a patch for drag&drop bus station, was that included or not?
05:18<@planetmaker>not sure, I don't recall... maybe, maybe not
05:23<@planetmaker>it actually works just fine
05:23<@planetmaker>I just never use it there :-)
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05:37<@Terkhen>it was included
05:38<@Terkhen>before 1.0.0 IIRC
05:38<@planetmaker>quite certainly, yes
05:39<@Terkhen>drive-through stops can be dragged in any direction, normal stops only in the direction that lets the entrance free
05:39<@planetmaker>that's what I amended to my posting, yes ;-)
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06:30<LordAro>planetmaker: sorry for slow reply, got called away.... i usually just redirect people to the wiki
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>ah, i think i isolated the piece that causes the crash...
06:30<@planetmaker>LordAro: 32bpp != extra zoom
06:31<@planetmaker>IMHO that distinction is crucial
06:31<LordAro>thats true, but normally people asking for '32bpp' want the extra zoom
06:31<@planetmaker>And - please correct me - the 32bpp should also work w/o the extra zoom patch, right?
06:31<LordAro>i believe so
06:31<@planetmaker>LordAro: I'm not too sure actually :-)
06:32<@planetmaker>Thus - my personal opinion - direct people first and foremost to a 32bpp installation with default OpenTTD
06:32<@planetmaker>And only then when they have succeeded in that, they might consider to also use a patched version
06:32<Eddi|zuHause> <-- in this patch, the line "int bz = (u_p == NULL)" must mean "u_n == NULL"
06:32<@planetmaker>It'd make using 32bpp MUCH easier, if it wouldn't give the impression people need a special version
06:32<V453000><- had no idea about that
06:32<@planetmaker>And might increase its usage a lot
06:33<V453000>what is 32bpp then?
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>but i kinda doubt this will ever included, so i'm not going to worry any further ;)
06:34<@planetmaker>LordAro: and don't worry about your reply time :-) There's nothing which needs excuses
06:35<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: you should ask that when a dev involved in that patch is around :)
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: it is my patch ;)
06:35<@Alberth>and you ask here? hmm :)
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>no, i'm just thinking outloud
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06:39<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: basically, the patch is fairly obsolete by now
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06:40<Eddi|zuHause>it was decided that patching var45 is useless, and adding 60+ variables provides way better control
06:41<@Alberth>fine by me, I don't know much about variables anyway :)
06:54<Eddi|zuHause><V453000> q: how do I indicate the maximum "safe" size of a sprite? In this case for a 0.5 tile wagon, but overall? <-- after reviewing a bit, i think 11 or 12px in Z direction is the "pain" limit. george's long vehicles occasionally are bigger (i've seen 15 or 16px), and it really doesn't fit.
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06:58<LordAro>planetmaker: ok, i'll look into writing something :) however, most of the extra-zoom graphics, due to the patch modifying palette (or something), do not work (very well) with normal zoom (IIRC)
06:59<@planetmaker>sounds not like a good approach for the patch, if it also modifies colours.
06:59<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: I was already told about the templates which work quite well :) using pikka ones
06:59<V453000>but thanks :p
06:59<V453000>and yes, long vehicles really dont fit :(
07:01<LordAro>planetmaker: it has to (don't know details) otherwise half the colours are the same
07:02<@planetmaker>LordAro: why would colours in normal zoom and extra zoom need to differ? Sorry, doesn't sound logical ;-)
07:02<LordAro>i don't know the details, you'd have to ask GeekToo
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07:03<@planetmaker>I haven't seen him in long :-(
07:04<LordAro>same, 32bpp seems to be pretty dead atm :(
07:04<LordAro>i'm probably the most active person involved, followed my maqunista
07:05<LordAro>this page is good, methinks?
07:05<@planetmaker>but yes, it seems to temper with the 32bpp bliter
07:05<@peter1138>iirc, EZ completely ignores non-32bpp blitters too
07:06<@planetmaker>LordAro: I had nearly always the impression that the 32bpp project suffers from mixing several issues - which leads to none being really solved:
07:06<@planetmaker>- enabling zoom levels
07:06<@planetmaker>- allowing extra graphics for zoom levels
07:06<@planetmaker>- changing how colours are treated
07:07<@planetmaker>I don't know the patch, so I can't judge wether 3 is really needed at all
07:07<@planetmaker>and yes, the zoom levels should work also for 8bpp, if you ask me ;-)
07:07<LordAro>peter1138: yes, ez now forces 32bpp blitter
07:07<@planetmaker>and on the GUI
07:07<@peter1138>- wanting to add gameplay altering features, such as object scales, smooth rail cuves, etc...
07:07<@planetmaker>peter1138: yes, much indeed :-)
07:08<V453000>what is the point of 32bpp? more pixels on each sprite?
07:08<LordAro>peter1138: no one really wants that, it's just regualrly suggested by newbies due to the improved graphics
07:08<V453000>without the zoom
07:08<@peter1138>colour depth
07:08<@planetmaker>V453000: more colours
07:08<@planetmaker>2**24 instead of 192
07:09<V453000>hmm, insteresting
07:09<V453000>but well, why :)
07:09<@peter1138>though the palette used in 8bpp is a pretty good spread for most things
07:09<@peter1138>why? because there are some things that you can't get quite the right colour with 8bpp
07:10<@peter1138>(not 8bpp in general, but 8bpp with ttd's palette)
07:10<V453000>well, yes but I still feel like the 8bpp is quite sufficient
07:10<@peter1138>so do most newgrf authors
07:10<@peter1138>i think mb had problems with some colours in dbsetxl though
07:11<V453000>well sure sometimes it gets a bit harder but that is what pixel art is about, isnt it
07:12<LordAro>planetmaker: company colours:
07:13<@planetmaker>LordAro: but if that's an issue - then it's not an issue which needs solving in this context
07:13<@planetmaker>it's or it'd be a trunk bug
07:14<LordAro>precisely, obviously the patch needs to be re-written at some point, although that'd probably break most graphics :(
07:14<@planetmaker>at least it's a thing completely separate from any zoom feature :-)
07:14<@planetmaker>why would the graphics break? Company-colours?
07:15<@peter1138>i forget how the overlays are done
07:15<@peter1138>but that image doesn't seem right :S
07:16<LordAro>planetmaker: something to do with the overlays? i'm not sure...
07:16<LordAro>i just organise the grqaphics in the repo, i don't make them myself :)
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07:19*planetmaker wonders how difficult an implementation of something like would be.
07:19<@planetmaker>My guess is not terribly difficult
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07:20<LordAro>off you go then ;)
07:20<@peter1138>scale2x is simple
07:20<@peter1138>restructuring the rest of the code for larger sprites is not
07:21<@planetmaker>and it'd work independent of colour depth, as far as I see
07:21<@planetmaker>peter1138: yes, that'd be most work :-)
07:21<@planetmaker>so even this could be split actually into two:
07:22<@planetmaker>- adding additional zoom levels (2/3/4)
07:22<@planetmaker>- adding capability to provide dedicated sprites for zoom levels
07:22<@planetmaker>after all we already have zoom levels 0.5 and 0.25(?)
07:22<@peter1138>well, truelight once had zoom in working
07:23<@peter1138>er, TrueBrain
07:23<@peter1138>it was glitchy though
07:23<TrueBrain>and useless
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07:23<TrueBrain>but yeah, never committed it due to the glitches :D
07:23<LordAro>O.o a wild TrueBrain appeared :)
07:24<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: what were the (main) glitches?
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>a highlight tends to do that with people ;)
07:24<@Alberth>LordAro: wild? you haven't seem him wild :p
07:24<TrueBrain>planetmaker: offset issues
07:24<@planetmaker>that possibly could be solved :-)
07:24<TrueBrain>2x zoomin would make every pixel 2x2 (slow drawing btw)
07:25<TrueBrain>but if that 2x2 block was on an edge, glitches appeared
07:25<@planetmaker>makes sense
07:25<TrueBrain>highlights, scrolling, mouse, ..
07:25<@planetmaker>sounds like not fun
07:25<TrueBrain>I could solve a few, but ... I really disliked the zoomin, it didn't do what I would hope it did
07:26<@peter1138>otoh, if you pre-scale the graphics on load...
07:26<TrueBrain>yeah, we prescale the other resolutions too, that would solve the slowness there
07:26<TrueBrain>then you have 32bit gfx people who drewl on higher quality
07:27<TrueBrain>but .. zoomin just doesn't look right in my opinion :)
07:27<@planetmaker>so... that'd be the way to go then: pre-scale and cache everything at all zoom levels
07:27<TrueBrain>anyway, the whole blitter is prepared for zoomin :)
07:27<@Alberth>TrueBrain: 'not right' as in you need new pixel art instead?
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>what's actually wrong with the patch the 32bpp people use?
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>other than x4 is very... jumpy
07:28<TrueBrain>Alberth: if you mean the "doesn't look right", no, what I mean is that it makes the game more clumpsy to operate
07:28<TrueBrain>it just doesn't add to the game, in my opinion, so I stopped looking into it :)
07:29<@Alberth>like opendune with its too small sceen?
07:29<TrueBrain>kinda, yeah
07:29<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: at least it doesn't care about 8bpp
07:31<@planetmaker>and lines like -/** Data structure describing a sprite. */
07:31<@planetmaker>don't feel right either ;-)
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>i hate when he says that. i never know what it means
07:37<TrueBrain>the dots, or the heh?
07:37<@planetmaker>- AddSortableSpriteToDraw(pylon_base + pylon_sprites[temp], PAL_NONE, x, y, 1, 1, BB_HEIGHT_UNDER_BRIDGE,
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>the heh
07:37<@planetmaker>+ AddSortableSpriteToDraw(pylon_base + pylon_sprites[temp], PAL_NONE, x, y, 1, 1, BB_HEIGHT_UNDER_BRIDGE + 5,
07:37<@planetmaker>so there goes an unexplained + 5....
07:38<TrueBrain>planetmaker: MAGIC NUMBERS!!!
07:38<TrueBrain>I love them the most of all numbers
07:38<TrueBrain>they are ... MAGIC
07:38<@planetmaker>and it's the 3rd prime. how wonderful ;-)
07:38<TrueBrain>its a bit like having a soup of a colour you can't define
07:38<@planetmaker>and a fibonacci number
07:39<TrueBrain>it is also odd
07:39<TrueBrain>1 more than 4
07:39<TrueBrain>1 less than 6
07:39<TrueBrain>within the domain if [5, 5]
07:39<@planetmaker>+ bp.height -= y; //UnScaleByZoom(y, dpi->zoom); <-- I have the feeling this somewhat undloes the preparation for zoom
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>"you shall not count to 2, unless you go on to 3" (or something like that)
07:39<TrueBrain>even [5, 5) and (5, 5] :P
07:40<@planetmaker>omg! The end is near!
07:40<TrueBrain>I see planetmaker dried up perfectly as dev; as sarcastic as the rest of us when it goes about reading patches :D
07:41<@planetmaker>hmpf :-P
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>wth is this stupid discussion of renaming "NewGRFs" to "mods"?
07:41<@planetmaker>people adopt to their environments ;-)
07:41<TrueBrain>LOL! That is a new one Eddi|zuHause :D
07:42<Eddi|zuHause> <-- about starting from here
07:43<@planetmaker>stupid, not stupid. Mod is more universally understood than NewGRF. But NewGRF is more specific
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>that is true, but the discussion is all wrong...
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>i think we need a "?" button in every window, with a short description what the window is about
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>"short" being "longer than a tooltip"
07:45<@planetmaker>so a tooltip for the window title
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>no, a real popup window
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>with a text, two or three paragraphs long
07:45<@planetmaker>which can only be disabled by editing the cfg ;-)
07:46<@Alberth>"this is a popup window, it explains about the purpose of the window you just clicked at"
07:46<@planetmaker>and then recurse ;-)
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: makes for a good easter egg ;)
07:47<@planetmaker>but one window showing help on the last active window... might make sense
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07:56<Eddi|zuHause>could use a callback adjusting the xrel/yrel of a sprite, without duplicating it in the GRF ;)
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08:30<@planetmaker> <-- haha :-) Trial for verbal offence: "I'm sorry, that just slipped through. One should not downplay him as ass"
08:30<@planetmaker>an excuse actually accepted by court ;-)
08:31<MNIM>well it could be worse.
08:31<MNIM>he could have called him an arschloch
08:32<MNIM>haaa haaa
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08:34<@planetmaker>MNIM: that's the same level of verbal injury...
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08:36<flitz>as I'm losing overview right now: what would be the easiest method to retrieve a vehicle's image width without having an actual vehicle at hand ?
08:37<flitz>what I've seen so far all uses a vehicle pointer to retrieve the correct sprite group and callbacks etc.
08:39<@Alberth>you're talking about what? c++ code, nfo code, nml code, sprite image sheets (as in .png), ???
08:39<@planetmaker>there's a method which returns the sprite size
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08:41<@Alberth>int GetVehicleWidth(Vehicle *v) <-- a random search gave me this
08:42<@Alberth>but I don't know whether this is any good.
08:42<@Alberth>I never needed to get that information until now
08:43<flitz>yes, but I was looking for a method without using a vehicle pointer, the only thing I have at hand is the sprite number
08:43<@Alberth>you may want to look into the train information window, or the buy vehicle window
08:43<flitz>I can draw that as a vehicle but the width is incorrect then
08:45<flitz>all I found is something strange with resolverobjects for retrieving spritegroups, up until that point you always need to pass vehicle pointers
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08:45<@planetmaker>yes, seems to be true
08:46<@Alberth>static inline const Sprite *GetSprite(SpriteID sprite, SpriteType type) <-- something in this direction?
08:46<@planetmaker>there's also a GetSpriteWidth
08:46<@Alberth>No doubt you can get a Sprite * from a SpriteID
08:47<@Alberth>from there you should be able to get the width
08:47<@planetmaker>hm, *Size
08:48<flitz>hm thanks, I was totally stuck with the search inside the vehicle-code and didn't look anywhere else
08:48<@planetmaker>what do you actually try to achieve?
08:48<@Alberth>flitz: just look for "GetSprite*" like functions
08:48<@planetmaker>gfx.cpp is your friend there mostly, yes
08:49<flitz>you probably forgot, but some time ago I was tinkering with template-based vehicle replacements ;)
08:49<flitz>then some important exams made me pause that for a while
08:52<flitz>for the templates I have created my own structure and when drawing a template train onto some gui I needed to get the correct sprite id and from that the correct sprite width
08:52<flitz>I looked how the vehicles in the game do it, and they do it in a very complicated way
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08:54<@Alberth>no doubt due to history, and trying to be generic and all that
08:55<@planetmaker>I see... Though DrawVehicleImage is not useful?
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>flitz: what prevents you from reusing the depot gui?
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08:56<@planetmaker>create (virtual) vehicles and let the drawing be done by existing routines
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09:00<flitz>@Eddi: good hint actually, there is a drawtrainengine() method that doesn't use any vehicle pointer... I will test that
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>flitz: i think with all the newgrf stuff around, you won't get away with using no pointer. the only thing that works there is a buy-vehicle-window stuff, but the displayed vehicle there may vary significantly from the actual vehicle
09:02<flitz>@planetmaker: I was going to use that as last resort, only question about that was, when building a new (virtual) vehicle, I need to specify some tile index if I see that correctly
09:03<@planetmaker>that seems like, yes
09:03<flitz>@Eddi: I extracted the needed code to retrieve the correct spriteid without using a real vehicle, only problem now is the width and later possibly the correct display of cargo type
09:03*Alberth waves hi to Belugas
09:03<@planetmaker>But... is that an issue?
09:03<@planetmaker>hi Belugas
09:04<@Belugas>hi everyone :D
09:04<flitz>IIRC the game crashed on me when giving a wrong tile, this would force me to look for a correct depot or patch of rail or something
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>flitz: you get crazy issues like calulating the available refits
09:04<flitz>hi -> belugas
09:05<@Belugas>Belugas <- hi -> flitz
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>flitz: which may depend on the engines and wagons configuration
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>flitz: all the newgrf callbacks needed for that will require a vehicle pointer
09:06<@planetmaker>^ good point
09:09<flitz>hm, when trying it, it seems that I can just create a new vehicle with TileIndex 0, just need to make sure to quickly get rid of that vehicle afterwards before the rest of the game wants to do stuff with it
09:09<flitz>like displaying in some list
09:10<flitz>and if I have a long template train, I need to create a virtual engine or wagon for each of its components, just for the sake of drawing the template
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>flitz: the autoreplace command creates temporary vehicles
09:14<@planetmaker>flitz: or just create a new vehicle pool for your templates
09:14<@planetmaker>but as eddi says, autoreplace already uses iirc something along these lines
09:18<flitz>I've found something like: "Train **old_vehs = CallocT<Train *>(num_units)", doesn't seem to be drawing related, though
09:18<flitz>the template trains use their own pool already, I didn't want them to get messed up with the real ones, that would certainly have happened at one point or the other
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>what's the difference between "Get*Icon" and "Get*Image" (where "*" is a vehicle type)?
09:21<@peter1138>icon just gets a specific direction
09:21<@peter1138>for purchase list/depot/new engine/etc/etc
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>that may already be exactly the place i am searching for ;)
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09:39<Eddi|zuHause>George: care to test something for me?
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09:49<Eddi|zuHause>hm, seems to work in the depot gui, but not in the train details
09:59<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: you'll have to provide binaries to have him test that. afaik
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, you're right
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>we should provide a cets-test-binary anyway as soon as we are using these variables :)
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>something is weird in train_gui.cpp:DrawTrainDetails()
10:02<@planetmaker>should be relatively easily feasible. We just need a repo, e.g. at the DevZone, and then we could get the CF pull from there
10:02<@planetmaker>and push results back. In principle at least
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>two patches needed are this: and the one attached to above post (once cleaned up and made sure to work)
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>and then someone to sporadically synch with trunk ;)
10:09<Ammler>the devzone had once automatic features to at least detect merge and build errors
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>these are very small and confined patches, unlikely to have merge conflicts
10:14<Ammler>if you want, I can get it working again...
10:15<Ammler>no big deal, needs basically just checking if my script survived the recent changes :-)
10:19<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: hope that they'll have merge conflicts at *some stage* ;-)
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>aye ;)
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11:34<Eddi|zuHause>cool, i think this works now... preparing patch
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker, George: now with another patch that should really do everything needed to display a special GUI sprite
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: so where do i get a devzone project from, to post these three patches?
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>and where did i put my small screwdriver...
11:48<@Belugas>i see it, it's on the shelf above the train station 3
11:51<@peter1138>don't patches get posted to flyspray?
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11:53<Eddi|zuHause>next in this theatre...
11:58<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: that project needs creation, I guess.
11:58<@planetmaker>Question though: you want to use it as mq project or as a patched trunk?
11:59<@planetmaker>peter1138: the CF can only badly pull from flyspray while it could pull from a repository found elsewhere ;-)
12:01<@peter1138>well i have no real idea what devzone is then
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12:01<@peter1138>thought it was something ottdcoop related
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: it's an easy place to host a repo so the compile farm can create binaries
12:04<flitz>Does anyone know about the problem that a window is being drawn around 1000 times on each update ?
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12:09<@Alberth>'each update' ?
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12:10<@Alberth>is the window over something moving in the main window?
12:10<@Alberth>then yes, you get lots of updates
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12:12<flitz>I just draw 2 train images, like in a depot, there is no reason to update the gui
12:14<@Alberth>that needs code to decide which part of the dirty rectangles can actually be seen
12:14<@Alberth>having more than one update of your window should work anyway
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12:16<@Alberth>oh, and it then also needs administration which window ordered a redraw, assuming if you request a redraw of your window, it should be updated
12:19<@planetmaker>peter1138: it may be sponsored by #openttdcoop (or rather Ammler and myself to be more precise) - but it's a place for any 3rd-party TTD related content as long as it has a permissive license
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12:20<ampunk>im a noob
12:20<ampunk>need info
12:20<@planetmaker>good. Means you can only get better then ;-)
12:20<ampunk>about shortcuts
12:21<@planetmaker>(no offence meant)
12:21<@planetmaker>there's a file called hotkeys.cfg
12:21<@planetmaker>next to openttd.cfg
12:21<@planetmaker>there you can configure hotkeys
12:21<@planetmaker>close openttd before you edit it
12:21<@planetmaker>it will be overwritten otherwise
12:22<@planetmaker>(or at least I'm not sure it wouldn't)
12:23<@Alberth>you can also try reading the wiki:
12:23<@planetmaker>the one thing I change(d) for myself is assigning y to the road toolbar. Something missing a default hotkey ;-)
12:24<@planetmaker>ho, that page doesn't look bad :-) I didn't know it existed
12:26<@Alberth>yeah, it seems new
12:26<@Alberth>or 'updated', actually :)
12:26<flitz>Alberth: thanks, must be something else though, something selfmade
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12:33<@planetmaker>yes, they exist ;-)
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12:35<@Alberth>it is spoken by many people, whole south america
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>that is actually only half true ;)
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>a large part of south america actually speaks portugese ;)
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12:38<flitz>Alberth: without doing anything special the gui is updated only once (on creation for example), but when I do CmdBuildRailVehicle() on each call of DrawWidget(), the widget is redrawn 540 times, without anything actually being drawn
12:39<flitz>that has to do with my problem, I just don't know why a plain call of CmdBuildRailVehicle() issues a redraw of my gui if nothing is being drawn
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>flitz: don't do this in DrawWidget then
12:39<@Alberth>CmdXXX ?
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12:40<flitz>I call it directly instead of using DoCommand(...)
12:40<@Alberth>CmdXXX are for issueing user commands (usually due to some mouse click)
12:40<flitz>@Eddi: I call some other function, so cmdbuildrailvehicle is an indirect call
12:41<@Alberth>you need something far more lowlevel I think, like 'new Vehicle' or so
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12:45<flitz>Alberth: this was more of a quick try so that I do not need to do all the necessary setup of the vehicle myself
12:45<@Alberth>ok, since it sounds like a very bad way of drawing a vehicle
12:46<flitz>I've found that the cmd-func calls updatetraingroupid() which in turn calls SetWindowDirty(WC_REPLACE_VEHICLE, VEH_TRAIN); weird only that this doesn't correspond to my own gui
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12:47<@Alberth>nice, make new dirty rectangles while rendering a gui :p
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12:52<CIA-2>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22673 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Add #4690: Provide random bits in var 0x10 for callback 0x3B in all cases (Hirundo)
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12:57*MNIM waves.
12:59<MNIM>I have a dilemma. what language would you people recommend for making a 2d plane rts game, capable of multiple platforms?
13:00<MNIM>that is, for somebody who has only been introduced to VB, limited C*, python and flash?
13:00<@planetmaker>VB and C* are not so much cross-platform
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13:01<@Alberth>I don't know what C* is, do you mean C#
13:01<MNIM>hmmmh, I always heard that the C family wasn't that hard to crossplatform
13:01<MNIM>No, I mean anything with C
13:01<@peter1138>C* might mean C/C++
13:01<MNIM>you never heard of wildcard characters? >.<
13:01<@planetmaker>MNIM: C != C# != Objective C != ...
13:02<@planetmaker>not much difference, but makes a difference to being portable
13:03<@Alberth>if you need CPU power, go for C/C++
13:03<MNIM>well, for the kind of scale Im having in mind right now, has any one of you ever heard of flash trek?
13:04<@Alberth>flash is mostly web-app, right?
13:04<MNIM>true, but I'm not going to use flash for coding.
13:04<MNIM>if even it was only because I'm running linux.
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13:05<@Alberth>gnu has made an open flash thingie, no idea how it is called
13:05<@Alberth>VB is dead if you want cross-platform
13:06<@Alberth>so that leaves you python and C/C++ :)
13:06<@planetmaker>flash sucks big time for performance
13:06<MNIM>that too :/
13:06<@planetmaker>There's a project which just did finish an entire game in html5 or so
13:06<@planetmaker>don't remember the name
13:06*planetmaker has flash disabled by default
13:06<@Alberth>I don't even have flash installed :)
13:06<MNIM>html5 sounds interesting, but Im not sure if it's very suitable for game engines.
13:07<MNIM>so C++ it is then.
13:07<@Alberth>you could start in python
13:07<@Alberth>and make C/C++ extension modules at the time you need more speed
13:08<@Alberth>or more likely, cython
13:08<MNIM>well, but am i not still stuck with requiring python to be DL'd?
13:08<@Alberth>duh :)
13:08<MNIM>well yeah.
13:08<@Alberth>but modern linuces have it installed by default
13:09<@Alberth>just the version is a bit of a problem
13:09<MNIM>I know.
13:09<@Alberth>due to the switch to python 3
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13:09<MNIM>that's part of why I don't want that.
13:10<MNIM>it would be nice if python allowed packaging itself within the program, so you wouldn't need a separate shared python install, with all it's issues.
13:10<MNIM>sure, it'd make the package bigger, but far easier for the non-'nix geeks out there. :P
13:10<@Alberth>there are windows installer generators that do that afaik
13:10<MNIM>ohhh. really?
13:11<@Alberth>(but I never tried them, wrong platform for me :) )
13:11*MNIM dualboots.
13:11*MNIM would tripleboot, even, if somebody provided me with a suitable macbook to destroy and abuse. :P
13:12<@Alberth>and there is py2exe, but no idea what that does exactly
13:12<MNIM>well, not necessarily. I kinda hate mac osx with a passion.
13:12<MNIM>my dad bought a mac to make life simpler, but instead he asks me even more to help him with it.
13:13<MNIM>at least I knew my way round a dows pc, but a mac?
13:13<@Alberth>I know the problem :)
13:14<MNIM>oh well.
13:14<MNIM>I offered my dad a buntu livecd,
13:14<MNIM>let's see if he uses it.
13:14<@planetmaker>oh, it's time for a "this system is best" or "mac sucks"
13:15<MNIM>though I kindof feel like "OMYGODWHATHAVEIDONEWEAREDOOMED" gut feeling. :P
13:15<MNIM>no it ain't.
13:16<MNIM>time to open up synaptic
13:20*MNIM installs codelight
13:20<MNIM>lite, actually. :P
13:23<MNIM>But first, I need to eat. coding on an empty stomach is no business.
13:23<MNIM>and perhaps a drink or two too. :D
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13:38<@Belugas>a drink and two
13:38<@Belugas>makes it 12 drinks!
13:40<supermop>i'll take one of those 12
13:41<@planetmaker>hi andythenorth
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13:44<andythenorth>hola planetmaker
13:44<andythenorth>I have done forum bad again :P
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22674 /trunk/src/lang/danish.txt:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: danish - 5 changes by NeoNmaN
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13:51<@planetmaker>what did you do andythenorth? FISH thread? That's not even starting to be bad ;-)
13:52<andythenorth>being grumpy on forums is maybe childish
13:54<@Alberth>instead of a grumpy reply, maybe better do not reply
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13:55<@Alberth>phew :)
13:56<@Alberth>but this one is ok I think
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14:08<MNIM>bah, there was no drinkable beer to go with noodles in the house.
14:10<__ln__>you like mixing noodles and beer?
14:10<Chris_Booth>__ln__: beer mixes with anything
14:11<MNIM>well, I meant mainly like european drinks to accompany the meal.
14:11<MNIM>beer, wine, etc.
14:12<MNIM>noodles are best accompanied by dark (and sweet) beers
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>i never mix beer and food...
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14:32*MNIM reads up on c++
14:36<SpComb>it's terrible
14:37<MNIM>I like my programming languages to be readable like normal english.
14:37<MNIM>! is NOT readable like normal english. >.>
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14:38<@Alberth>MNIM: you're spoiled :p
14:39<@Alberth>evenink Wolf01
14:39<MNIM>No alberth
14:40<MNIM>I'm not that much of a coder. I can do logic, but I prefer my logic to be in english.
14:40<MNIM>or dutch even, but not in ! and || and &&
14:40<SpComb>you get used to it, it's hardly the worst part
14:41<MNIM>mweh. what is?
14:41<@Alberth>I was trying to say there are very few languages that use those keywords
14:43<SpComb>stuff like `friend std::ostream& operator<< <> (std::ostream& o, const Foo<T>& x);`
14:43<valhallasw>SpComb: no, that's not that bad. The compiler errors you get because you forget a <. Those are bad.
14:44<MNIM>well that's just sloppyness.
14:44<@Alberth>oh, templated operator overloading, nice
14:44<MNIM>even *I* know not to be sloppy when coding. I mean, that is something for being ADD
14:44<SpComb>Alberth: as external *friend* functions
14:44<SpComb>MNIM: no it isn't, that example is straight from the C++ FAQ
14:45<MNIM>well, sloppyness of course is extremely common
14:45<MNIM>and in general the first thing to blame when code goes wrong. :P
14:45<@Alberth>SpComb: yeah, does not make sense, but for equality functions, I think it does make more sense than making it part of one of them, for example
14:46<@Alberth>although you should be able to decide equality on public data values of an object :p
14:47<MNIM>C++ has no boolean variable type?
14:47<flitz>but its stored in a byte
14:48<MNIM>then why did I miss it's introduction.
14:48<SpComb>Alberth: std::ostream operators like that is has to be defined externally
14:48<SpComb>best thing is, you can write, like, `friend QDataStream & operator>><> (QDataStream &in, FooClass<FooType> &collection);`
14:48<MNIM>it listed char, int and float, but no bool
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14:49<MNIM>no bool to be found
14:49<@Alberth>you have a bad tutorial, I'd say
14:49*MNIM points at the above link, is using that
14:52<MNIM>do you have a better suggestion?
14:52<flitz>there is no notion of the list of primitive types in this example being complete, though
14:53<flitz>just go on with it, can't be too bad, just because they didn't mention bool ;)
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14:54<LordAro>MNIM: me and Alberth (at least) like it :)
14:54<@Alberth>SpComb good point
14:57<@Alberth>MNIM: lesson 2 states that 0 and 1 are booleans, which is simply false.
14:58<MNIM>ahah. see, my gut still hasn't left me.
14:58<@Alberth>MNIM: A. !( 1 || 0 ) ANSWER: 0
14:58<@Alberth>also, lesson 1 does cout<<"foo" and lesson 2 does if ( a == b) ... extremely inconsistent
15:00<@Alberth>MNIM: It looks like a C manual which they 'upgraded' to C++ by fixing a few examples
15:00<MNIM>I take it that that book you posted is only available in print.
15:01<LordAro>dunno, search brings up this: (soz
15:01<LordAro>for huge url)
15:02<Chris_Booth>LordAro: ever thought about using tiny url?
15:02<LordAro>cba :p
15:03<@Alberth>haha, yeah, let's do C str functions, instead of std::string :p
15:05<Rubidium>hmm... bools are bytes?
15:06*Rubidium wonders how long I have to look to find proof that's not the case
15:06<MNIM>bah, why the fuck do people still use serif fonds to type something?
15:07<MNIM>they should be killed by repeatedly stabbing them in the eye with a hot knife.
15:07<valhallasw>fundamentalistic attitude there.
15:07*Rubidium only uses fonds for cooking
15:07<SpComb>struct { unsigned x : 1; }
15:07<@planetmaker>hm... yummy :-)
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15:08<Rubidium>in any case, serif fonts have proven to be easiest legible (on paper)
15:08<MNIM>I get fundamentalistic when I need to take in large amounts of data.
15:08<valhallasw>well, then why don't you change the font to a sans-serif font
15:08<Rubidium>although sans serif ones are on screen, IIRC Verdana or so was best at one point
15:10<MNIM>valhallasw: in a pdf?
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15:10<MNIM>it's probably possible, but I have found no easy way as of yet
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15:10<andythenorth>read it with google :P
15:11<MNIM>ewww, google.
15:11<Rubidium>configure $browser to use sans serif font for serif and disable the style sheet
15:11<valhallasw>MNIM: well, if it's a pdf it makes sense they use a serif font
15:11<valhallasw>because if it's a pdf, you should print it
15:12<MNIM>people still print shit when it's not necessary for legal purposes?
15:12<valhallasw>paper is awesome
15:12<Rubidium>oh you don't want to know
15:12<@Alberth>oh sure, as you can put many pages next to each other, and make notes on them
15:12<MNIM>I mean, I only ever do shit on paper because it needs to be on paper and signed for legal worth
15:13<andythenorth>paper has many uses
15:13<flitz>reading in bed
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15:20<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 28*0.87
15:20<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 24.36
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15:24<Eddi|zuHause>i did not choose his name ;)
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 27.5*0.87
15:25<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 23.925
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 17.5*0.87
15:25<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 15.225
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 10*0.87
15:25<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 8.7
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i should be able to calculate that in my head :p
15:27<MNIM>the latter one? jeaaaa
15:27<MNIM>on a sidenote
15:27<MNIM>things like that is why I've got a hotkey for my calculator
15:28<MNIM>in fact
15:28<MNIM>one on my screen, and one behind my keyboard
15:28<MNIM><3 my trusty casio CFX-9850GC plus
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15:31<valhalla1w>pah, graphic calculators
15:31<valhalla1w>haven't touched mine in... 4 years or so
15:31<MNIM>I love that thing.
15:31<valhalla1w>maybe even five
15:31<valhalla1w>it's completely useless for real math
15:31<MNIM>well, that's what paper is for.
15:32<MNIM>as for simply calculating shit, graphic calculators rule
15:32<MNIM>and, to be realistic, that's all I ever hope to do
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15:33*valhalla1w likes his HP-41CV for calculations
15:33<valhalla1w>also: my head
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15:35<MNIM>well, my head is no good for numbers.
15:35<MNIM>horrible, in fact
15:37<valhalla1w>practising helps :-)
15:38<MNIM>I know.
15:38<MNIM>I finished high school three years ago.
15:38<MNIM>since then, no maths whatsoever
15:38<MNIM>no abstract maths, at least
15:40<MNIM>thanks LordAro!
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>i was good in calculating
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>until we got real maths around the 8th grade :p
15:42<frosch123>who needs real math?
15:42<MNIM>how does C++ does XOR?
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>people who get bored easily :p
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: ^
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>(i think)
15:43<frosch123>i don't think realism adds anything to math
15:43<valhalla1w>frosch123: depends what you call 'real' math
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i didn't say "realistic" maths :p
15:43<frosch123>valhalla1w: hint, at least two involved in this discussion have studied math :p
15:44<flitz>I think mathemeticians don't calculate all that much anymore
15:44<Rubidium>ofcourse they don't
15:44<frosch123>yup, they let calculate
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>flitz: not anything in complexity beyond 3+5 ;)
15:45<Rubidium>they leave it to maple, matlab and the likes ;)
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>or DorpsGek :p
15:46<Rubidium>sadly enough DorpsGek doesn't solve equations for you
15:46<flitz>I caught a couple of math semesters, we didn't calculate very much :)
15:46<andythenorth>don't mathematicians spend most of their time inventing new dimensions?
15:46<flitz>but we got advised to program in Fortran
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i kinda abused the maple bot too much... the guy kinda left :p
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: mathematicians don't spend thoughts on such trivialities
15:47<valhalla1w>they rather spend their time on coloring many-to-many relationships
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you do it for arbitrary number of dimensions and then every dimension you can think of is a trivial special case ;)
15:47<frosch123>mathematic is about the stuff which would hold if the axiom of choice would hold
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>unless you assume the axiom of choice does not hold :p
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15:49<TrueBrain>typical .. an email address only used with SixXS, and I receive spam on it ... I think your email address is nowhere safe anymore :(
15:49<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: how can you assume that anyone thinks it would hold
15:49<frosch123>but you can research nevertheless what it would imply if it would hold
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker/Ammler: how's the email-notification-on-commit coming along?
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: yes, but it's only half the math :p
15:50<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: both hold, probably not in the same universe though ;)
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15:51<valhalla1w>'list coloring of complete bipartite graphs'
15:51*valhalla1w shudders
15:52<frosch123>node coloring of bipartite graphs? isn't that kind of boring?
15:52<valhalla1w>frosch123: list coloring (at least, I hope that's the correct english term)
15:53<frosch123>no idea what a list is, i know node/vertex, and edges
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15:54<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i'm fairly sure node-colouring can be used to define that a graph is bipartite ;)
15:54<valhalla1w>frosch123: from what I understood from the text -- I'm a physicist, and not a mathematician, so I don't understand all terse formulations that well -- it's a about coloring nodes with a fixed list of colors per node
15:55<frosch123>multiple colours per node?
15:55<frosch123>never heard about that
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>i think he means the algorithm how to get to a colouring
15:55<valhalla1w>instead of having a fixed set of colors to choose from
15:55<valhalla1w>each node gets its own set
15:56*MNIM sighs
15:56<valhalla1w>then the question is: how long should these sets be to make sure every node can be colored
15:58<valhalla1w> pps 6-9, but it's in dutch.
15:59<Ammler>[21:49] <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker/Ammler: how's the email-notification-on-commit coming along? <-- it needs hacking of notify extension, not sure, if I want that
15:59<Ammler>but of course, patches are welcome :-)
16:00<frosch123> <- ok, never did that :)
16:00<@planetmaker>valhalla1w: but the only really interesting colouring schemes are for two or three dimensions... and 2D is solved, thus trivial ;-)
16:01<frosch123>planetmaker: it is only solved for planar stuff
16:01<frosch123>and there is tons of non-planar stuff
16:02<@planetmaker>ok, I see that not every 2D object is topolocially equivalent to a(n infinite) plane. But how many options are there?
16:02<@planetmaker>the moebius band certainly counts in this respect as infinite plane, too
16:03<@planetmaker>and it surely works for a torus (donut) as well
16:03<@planetmaker>(their surfaces that is)
16:03*LordAro 's head hurts
16:03<frosch123>planarity is at primary a thing about non-overlapping edges, isn't it?
16:03<LordAro>and i'm taking maths + further maths a level :L
16:04<@planetmaker>frosch123: maybe, I'm not too sure about these things :-)
16:05<frosch123>well, i guess if you want to draw it on some surface you can add enough "henkel" to it, so a graph becomes planar
16:05<MNIM>Im starting to have doubts about C++
16:06<frosch123>MNIM: just because something is popular and most used does not mean it is good
16:06<frosch123>it only means that a majority was too lazy to learn something better
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16:06<valhalla1w>MNIM: what do you want to do?
16:07<MNIM>well, Im not sure if I can explain it neatly in text, but Ill try.
16:08*andythenorth failed further maths A level
16:08<andythenorth>many years ago
16:08<MNIM>have you ever seen/played flashtrek? It's a 2d rts game (in flash, duh)
16:08<MNIM>Im looking to create something similar (NOT IN FLASH)
16:09<andythenorth>why not in Flash?
16:10<andythenorth>seems like a good technology for 2d games
16:10<MNIM>because I tried that already. :P
16:10<MNIM>besides that, I want it to be far, far more flexible.
16:10<MNIM>modular, mostly.
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16:11<andythenorth>HTML 5 Is Not a Thing
16:11<MNIM>with the possibility of just going "hey fuck that 2d shit with pngs and all, let's just make 3d models" one day and actually just needing to replace graphicscode.something in the game's folder structure
16:12<andythenorth>modularity is, mostly, over-rated
16:12<andythenorth>it leads to Never Shipping
16:12<MNIM>or to eternal betas
16:13<andythenorth>but your architecture diagram will be beautiful
16:13<MNIM>to be honest, I think Ill be content with an eternal beta. :P
16:13<andythenorth>and people will go 'oooh' about what they might be able to do in future :P
16:13<MNIM>Ill draw a diagram, actually
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16:14<andythenorth>modularity costs ~ £250,000 at UK coding salaries
16:14<MNIM>Im unpaid either way :P
16:19<andythenorth>FIRS fruit plantation is 5,400 lines of nml :o
16:19<@planetmaker>so far
16:19<@planetmaker>I'm sure we can template that down to far less. Eventually
16:20<@planetmaker>Not today though anymore
16:20<andythenorth>is it worth it though?
16:20<andythenorth>the code works
16:20<andythenorth>might never need to be maintained
16:20<andythenorth>refactor-as-you-go might not apply?
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16:21<@planetmaker>andythenorth: sure. But... most of it is the slope awareness afaik
16:21<@planetmaker>which is well worth templating anyway
16:21<@planetmaker>for various industries
16:21<andythenorth>slope + climate yes
16:22<andythenorth>can probably resolve to much less using advanced action 2 layout
16:22<andythenorth>not sure if the time is well spent though :P
16:22<andythenorth>I've split all the industries I can be bothered with out of god object
16:22<andythenorth>if 'someone' could be bothered to do the rest...then god object is gone :)
16:22<@planetmaker>can be bothered with? What about the others then?
16:23<andythenorth>they're redefinitions of TTD industries, and I can't figure out where the code starts / ends
16:23<andythenorth>mostly oil industries I think
16:23<andythenorth>only 3,600 lines left to do :)
16:24<supermop_>god object?
16:24<andythenorth>look it up :)
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16:31<MNIM>oh wait.
16:31<MNIM>I was almost giving you a structure chart in my unresized drawing resolution.
16:32<MNIM>that's a bit much
16:35<MNIM>please excuse the drawing-board quality, but I find that way works the fast when you already have a pen in hand anyway
16:38<MNIM>any ideas>
16:38<valhalla1w>first reaction: you're combining two issse in one drawing
16:39<MNIM>Im not drawing issues in the first place.
16:39<valhalla1w>main menu / game options / game / pause menu is the user 'workflow'
16:39<MNIM>it's not workflow
16:39<MNIM>it's the modules.
16:40<valhalla1w>then what do your arrows mean?
16:40<MNIM>relations. 'takes data from', mostly
16:41<MNIM>for example, the game module would calculate the player's position on the map and send it to the graphics module which would draw it
16:42<valhalla1w>and the user has no input?
16:42<valhalla1w>only navigation?
16:42<@planetmaker>good night
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16:42<MNIM>navigation refers to a seperate module which operates a star chart where you can navigate between systems.
16:43<valhalla1w>this is my point exactly
16:43<MNIM>the 'game' module itself is a different theater, with a ship controlled with arrow keys around a solar system
16:43<valhalla1w>main menu / options / game / navigation / pause menu
16:43<valhalla1w>are *screens*
16:43<valhalla1w>or, well, main menu / options / vis / nav / pause
16:44<MNIM>pretty much. you could describe the game/vis relation as backend/frontend
16:44<valhalla1w>the entire section on simulating / object data / loading and saving games is a completely different set of code
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16:46<MNIM>it would be nice if visualization was a readymade module so I don't have to bother about making that, as it's one of the least transparent things of coding to me
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17:28<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: make clean && make doesn't re-execute
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17:33*MNIM looks at fife
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17:39<LordAro>night all
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18:05<MNIM>very, very interesting.
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18:34<jrib>hi, I just discovered this awesome game!
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18:52<Eddi|zuHause>bah... the google help is useless... i can find out there's a function "TEXT(number, format)" but it offers absolutely no description on what "format" should look like
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---Logclosed Wed Jul 20 00:00:09 2011