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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-07-20

---Logopened Wed Jul 20 00:00:09 2011
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00:32<RandomGuest555>yo...
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02:10<Zmapper>Hello.
02:15<Zmapper>Can I just install openttd on a server?
02:15<Zmapper>So I can host a game that way?
02:20<LordAro>yes
02:21-!-Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e01bb41.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:21<LordAro>(generally)
02:24<Zmapper>Should I use fillezilla?
02:24<Zmapper>file-zila*
02:26<LordAro>no idea :) i suspect that's not how to install things on a server though
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02:40<@planetmaker>moin
02:41<V453000>elo pm
02:45<Zmapper>hello planetmaker.
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03:07<LordAro>hi pm
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03:19<@planetmaker>wow many people awake already :-) How're things?
03:20<Eddi|zuHause>i think i'm going to have to do real work today...
03:20<@planetmaker>:-)
03:29<V453000>im awake since 6:20 when some idiots called me that they have some package to deliver to me ... they arrived just now
03:29<V453000>happy times
03:30<@planetmaker>woot the idots call at 6:20h to *announce* that they're probably delivering shit?
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03:31<@planetmaker>that's more than plain rude
03:31<V453000>yes
03:32<V453000>wonderful
03:34<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: I added some of the files generated by generate.py to the clean target
03:35<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: imho you can just delete all *.gnml files
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03:36<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: that's what I do ;-)
03:37<@planetmaker>rm src/*.gnml src/*/*.gnml
03:38<@Terkhen>good morning
03:39<@planetmaker>hi Terkhen
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03:43<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: "find src -print0 -iname '*.gnml' | xargs -0 rm" or so
03:48<@planetmaker>I should use find more ;-)
03:48<@planetmaker>find src -iname '*.gnml' -delete will do
03:49<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, probably
03:54<Eddi|zuHause>gtg
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04:22<@planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=958334#p958334 <-- Alberth: get the scenario he posted. Save the newgrf config. And use that newgrf config to create a new scenario.
04:22<@planetmaker>For me I wasn't able to get oil refineries in that case either
04:23<@planetmaker>mind: the issue does NOT appear when you create a new _game_
04:23<@planetmaker>thus I personally conclude that it's an issue within ECS' industry availability code
04:24<@planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=958250#p958250 <-- I tried to describe it here ;-)
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04:25<@Alberth>So that was not clear enough for me :)
04:27*Alberth added a edit-note
04:27<@planetmaker>But he really makes it easy to be mis-understood, as he insists (and advocates) the use of unsafe actions ;-)
04:28<@Alberth>planetmaker: thanks for pointing it out
04:28<@planetmaker>I would not call it 'solved'. 'reproduced' is IMHO the proper word ;-)
04:28<@planetmaker>no problem :-)
04:28<@planetmaker>otherwise I'd solve many problems ;-)
04:29*Alberth changed s/solved/reproduced/
04:29<@planetmaker>:-D
04:29*planetmaker hugs Alberth
04:29<@planetmaker>and hands a cup of tea (sorry, no coffee here in the office)
04:29*Alberth hugs planetmaker
04:29<@Alberth>nice, some tea, goes well with my somewhat early lunch :)
04:30<@Alberth>euhm, 'office' and no coffee?
04:30<@Alberth>how can that be?
04:30<@planetmaker>:-) Oh, there'd be available coffee, if I preferred personally coffee over tea ;-)
04:31<@planetmaker>most people here actually drink coffee. And there's plenty around. Just not in my office ;-)
04:31<@planetmaker>and sorry, I was too lazy to get some from the spacebar ;-)
04:31<@Alberth>oh, tea is nice too, you cannot drink coffee all day
04:32<@Alberth>sandwich?
04:32<@planetmaker>sure, why not? Canteen is closed this week anyway
04:33*Alberth gives planetmaker a sandwich
04:33*peter1138 boggles at DHL
04:33<@planetmaker>yummi. Thanks :-)
04:33<@peter1138>package picked up at Swindon, then went to Heathrow, and is now at Gatwick...
04:34<@Alberth>I just knew these package tracking services would upset customers :p
04:35<@peter1138>not upset, just boggling :)
04:41<@planetmaker>peter1138: so did it leave a good impression? Rather not, it seems. Conclusion: detrimental
04:42<@peter1138>not... really...
04:42<@peter1138>it's a question of scale
04:42<@peter1138>when you consider one package, it's "wtf?"
04:43<@peter1138>when you consider they have to ship lots of stuff, there's a logic to it in reducing the total journeys
04:44<@planetmaker>of course. But do you (or any other customer) care about their internal logistics organization?
04:45<@Alberth>they just optimize to personnel costs rather than package travel distance
04:45<@peter1138>planetmaker, kinda. it would cost a lot more if they were to deliver it direct...
04:46<@peter1138>maybe i'm too reasonable :)
04:46<@peter1138>also i'm not expecting it until tomorrow, so until then .... :)
04:46<@planetmaker>peter1138: of course it'd cost a lot more to deliver directly. Still I don't care *how exactly* they route the mail I want to see delivered.
04:47<@planetmaker>I just want it reliable, fast and cheap
04:47<@Alberth>I am sure they can also optimize travel distance of your package against a price
04:47<@planetmaker>so the better measure would be ETA than place
04:49<@peter1138>i guess i'm just more geeky than you :)
04:49<@peter1138>i don't care how it's routed, but i don't mind knowing
04:50<@planetmaker>I don't mind either. But... it's pointless info really
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07:30<RandomGuest1>Yo
07:31<@planetmaker>hi
07:31<RandomGuest1>hmm...i was gonna ask some questions about TTD, but no-one is on :\
07:32<V453000>:d
07:33<RandomGuest1>i was gonna ask for some starting out tips because i can't make money "quickly"
07:34<@Alberth>cheat :)
07:35<dihedral>http://www.break.com/pictures/buttlooga-2085495
07:35<dihedral>:-D
07:35<RandomGuest1>is that how real life companies do it now? They type in a cheat code?
07:35<@Alberth>or build an airplane connection between two cites
07:35<dihedral>and hello
07:35<@Alberth>RandomGuest1: OpenTTD is a game about fun, not about real life, we already have way too much of that
07:36<RandomGuest1>ahh it was a joke :P we should add nuclear reactors and uranium to the game though >.> *terrorist face*
07:38<@Alberth>why
07:38<Mazur>I always find a simple run like a coal run generates enough profits to start up a company, though not as fast as a plane connection.
07:38<@Alberth>RandomGuest1: so you can do one transport of uranium every 20 years?
07:38<Mazur>Alberth, he wants things to blow up.
07:39<RandomGuest1>to nuke cities >.>
07:39<V453000>^ which most real companies do find some coal or planes :DDDDDDD
07:39<V453000>D:DD
07:39<@Alberth>Mazur: with uranium?
07:39<Mazur>Duno, ask him.
07:39<Mazur>+n
07:39<@Alberth>RandomGuest1: that's not how real companies tend to operate :p
07:39*planetmaker built a simple connection between one coal mine and a medium-distance power plant - and it seems to last me through the whole AI test game
07:39<Mazur>Would work better than a geranium, at least.
07:39<RandomGuest1>but what about the terrorist companies? They do it all the time!
07:40<@planetmaker>RandomGuest1: if you want to have terrorism, OpenTTD is not the game for you ;-)
07:40<Mazur>No, they don't, they'dbe liable to prosecution. So they outsource it.
07:40<RandomGuest1>what's really weird in the game is how random the buildings are placed...why are sawmills on the farm nowhere near a forest for?
07:41<Mazur>Through a shell company ion the Bahamas, or Caymans, or what have you.
07:41<@Alberth>to give you transport opportunties of course
07:41*V453000 is now officially the enemy of realism
07:41<V453000>^ if someone didnt notice :P
07:42<@Alberth>V453000: I just ignore it in all OpenTTD game discussions :)
07:42<@peter1138>V453000, uh... you'll have to fight Belugas for that spot :D
07:42<V453000>:D
07:43<@planetmaker>:-)
07:43<V453000>good
07:43<@planetmaker>it's an established title, indeed
07:44<RandomGuest1>buses: do you recomend?
07:44<@planetmaker>why not?
07:44<@planetmaker>generally it's a good idea to ship cargo no to the nearest destination but some medium-range distance
07:45<@planetmaker>100 ... 200 tiles is a good starting distance for your first route
07:45<RandomGuest1>that's like......1/2 of the 256x256 map
07:46<@planetmaker>so?
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07:46<RandomGuest1>aw well, i guess you can make the track go in circles
07:47<__ln__>you also can use a hammer to paint a wall
07:48<@Alberth>Trains can also reverse
07:48<Sacro>RandomGuest1: that won't work
07:49<Sacro>it'll travel the same distance but will take longer
07:49<RandomGuest1>k
07:51<RandomGuest1>48k train income and 23k plane income for first year
07:55<RandomGuest1>you really think a 150 tile long train line is gonna get me good cash?
07:57<@Alberth>tias
07:57<RandomGuest1>woah that does make a lot of cash
07:58<@planetmaker>150 tile long train route: yes. 150 tile long train: not possible ;-)
08:02*Mazur is a champion of Total Transport.
08:02<Mazur>Using all manner of transport mode.
08:03<@Alberth>in all climates?
08:03<Mazur>Well, using ships in a desert is a tad tricky, but otherwise: yes.
08:04<@Alberth>luckily canals do keep filled even in the desert :)
08:05<Mazur>Let me rephrase that: I _like_ it when all manner of transport is used, but not stupidly.
08:05<@peter1138>heh, and the package arrived 30 minutes ago
08:05<RandomGuest1>you can use ships in deserts as "fake" tourists attractions! too bad this isn't tourist tycoon...
08:06<Mazur>And I also dislike the kind of unrealism like e.g. ships behaving like planes.
08:07<V453000>ships fly?
08:07<@planetmaker>eh?
08:07<@planetmaker>I've not seen a ship 'fly' over mountains or desert tiles
08:09<Mazur>No, but if they were allowed, it'd be dead against it.
08:09<RandomGuest1>is there a way to quickly move trains from depot to depot?
08:10<@Alberth>clone and destroy the original, but that is not really move
08:11<RandomGuest1>im thinking of calling my company "Unneccesairly expensive goods travel service"
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08:18<RandomGuest1>question: if railstations A, B, C and D exist, all of them have ONE track, A and B are one supply line while C and D are another. If the tracks meet at one point, would both supply lines still work?
08:18<@planetmaker>depends on signals
08:19<RandomGuest1>so i just need signals and it'll work?
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08:19<@Alberth>but if you have no traffic between B and C, there is no need to connect them
08:20<RandomGuest1>it's mainly industry locations...
08:20<RandomGuest1>A would be NW, B is SE, C is SW and D is NE
08:20<@planetmaker>well, you can build arbitrarily complex rail networks
08:21<@planetmaker>you can even implement an ALU with openttd's rails and signals...
08:21<@planetmaker>i.e. simulate a pocket calculator with it
08:21<@planetmaker>but that is done only by crazy people :-P
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08:22<@planetmaker>RandomGuest1: just _a_ signal at _a random_ place won't do it. But it needs to be the proper one at the proper place. Which depends on network layouts
08:24<@Alberth>^ and finding out how to do that is the first step to becoming very addicted to OpenTTD :p
08:24<@planetmaker>hehe :-)
08:25<RandomGuest1>ok i need to find which one is used for rails..hmm
08:25<@Alberth>they all are ;)
08:26<RandomGuest1>o god
08:26<RandomGuest1>what can go wrong?
08:27<@Alberth>You may want to read http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals although I'd skip the pre-signals
08:27<@Alberth>they are not so relevant anymore since we have the path signals
08:28<@Alberth>in the See Also section at the bottom are other tutorials, which explain in more detail
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08:45<@planetmaker>http://video.linux.com/video/2127 :-)
08:45<@planetmaker>so... happy birthday linux
08:46<@planetmaker>and obviously also a good add for MS
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09:25<@Belugas>hi
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09:31<@Belugas>[07:42] <@peter1138> V453000, uh... you'll have to fight Belugas for that spot :D <-- I'm not a fighter! I'll gladly share that spot :D The more we are on it, the more efficiently we can fight this monstruosity!!!
09:36<@planetmaker>:-)
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09:46<@peter1138>hehe
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10:40<dihedral>hello SmatZ
10:40<dihedral>uh - haydn ... :-P
10:41<@planetmaker>hello dihedral :-)
10:41<@planetmaker>do you feel the music? :-P
10:41<dihedral>hey ho pm
10:41<dihedral>i feal the beat :-P
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11:38<Eddi|zuHause>two NML questions: how do i set the additional descritption text for the buy window, and can i assemble that from multiple strings?
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11:40<Hirundo>a) with the additional_text callback, b) I don't know for sure
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11:44<Hirundo>After a quick inspection I'm pretty sure b) is not possible, it'd be a nice feature though
11:44<@planetmaker>I haven't tried to assemble it from multiple strings... are parameters possible there?
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>from the openttd side, i'm sure it's possible, just has to be usefully exposed to NFO/NML
11:45<Hirundo>I'm not sure if ottd uses true concatenation or just sub-strings
11:46<Rubidium>there is barely any 'just' concatenation in OpenTTD
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>the only thing that is needed is a way to push a parameter to the stack in a varaction 2, the rest should already be handled by openttd
11:50-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. error messages already have parameters, there is just no way to influence them from the grf
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12:04<Eddi|zuHause>warning: soup is both hot and hot.
12:06<Prof_Frink>Mmm, hot soup.
12:19<CIA-2>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22675 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt main_gui.cpp toolbar_gui.cpp toolbar_gui.h): -Change: Add a menu entry for the sprite bounding box debuging feature in the help menu and enable bounding boxes only in conjunction with the newgrf developer tools
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12:35<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: how do you translate 'bounding box'?
12:36<@planetmaker>'umschließendes Rechteck'? gar nicht? 'Zeichen-box'?
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>"Quader", not "Rechteck"?
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12:37<@planetmaker>point taken. yes
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13:12<@planetmaker>http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Software-Hersteller-raten-Musikern-vom-Upgrade-auf-Lion-ab-1283034.html <-- sounds like fun ahead with the midi interface...
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13:30*MNIM reads the word 'mac'
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13:31*MNIM disregards rest, goes "UGH" and closes tab
13:31<Hirundo>Eddi|zuHause: Yes, in the future you should be able to do string(STR_XX, param1, param2, .. , paramn)
13:32<Chris_Booth>planetmaker: if I wanted to start messing around with making train newGRFs would you know a good article I could read?
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>Hirundo: how far future?
13:35<@planetmaker>Chris_Booth: I guess there's not much more than the documentation and looking at other newgrfs' code
13:35<Hirundo>dunno, there's a lot of stuff that I'd want to be coded yesterday
13:36<@planetmaker>:-D
13:36<Chris_Booth>no wiki, blog or forum posts about nfo?
13:36<@planetmaker>well... what do you need / want?
13:37<@planetmaker>The NML forum thread certainly has *something* about it, including a comparision nml/ nfo
13:37<@planetmaker>But...
13:39<Hirundo>Eddi|zuHause: Are the string parameters you'd want to use (compile-time) constants, or are they variable?
13:39<Chris_Booth>see I don't even know what NML is, all I want to do it mess around with some train sprites I have made
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>Hirundo: currently probably constant, but my speciality is finding cases where the previously valid boundaries do not hold anymore :p
13:40<@planetmaker>Chris_Booth: then I suggest you start with the NML docs
13:40<@planetmaker>http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/index.html
13:40<Chris_Booth>thanks planetmaker
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>Hirundo: the case i have in mind is putting a string like "Axle Weight: {NUM}"
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>or "Track type: {STRING}"
13:41<Rubidium>planetmaker: does that read like the same old story again? Apple breaks API, OpenTTD will not support new version until someone fixes it
13:43<@planetmaker>Rubidium: I don't know. I haven't downloaded nor tested it yet. But... that article lets me assume that things might be broken
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13:44<Chris_Booth>http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NFOFoundations <--- this is the most useless wiki article ever
13:45<@planetmaker>certainly not
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22676 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt english_US.txt french.txt german.txt spanish.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: czech - 1 changes by Harlequin
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: french - 2 changes by glx
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: spanish - 6 changes by Terkhen
13:45<Hirundo>Eddi|zuHause: I'll add a feature request to the tracker, but I can't promise it'll get done soon
13:46<Chris_Booth>it is planetmaker all the links it talks about are broken
13:46<Chris_Booth>it is as much use as a map to a road that has been dug up
13:47<@planetmaker>and if you look a bit more closely at the link you'll just noticed that they're missing a single space character
13:49<@planetmaker>acutally s@|@ @g
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>someone's conversion script failed ;)
13:51<Chris_Booth>thanks planetmaker for fixing the link
13:52<@planetmaker>psst, Eddi|zuHause ;-)
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14:16<Wolf01>hello
14:17-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust387.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
14:17<@planetmaker>hi wolf
14:19<andythenorth>guten abend
14:19<andythenorth>namaste
14:19<andythenorth>hola
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>nastarovje
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14:20<@planetmaker>hi andythenorth
14:22<andythenorth>hmm
14:22<andythenorth>are there any newgrfs that disable themselves if palette is wrong?
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>i have not seen any, but allegedly they exist
14:29<andythenorth>this newgrf spec is problematic :P
14:30<andythenorth>maybe we should eliminate the windows palette?
14:31*andythenorth is deadly serious
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14:31<jrabbit>my friend is having problems running openttd on debian lstable
14:32<jrabbit>http://pastebin.com/iCxmrBP9 & http://pastebin.com/W2rwm1GF
14:32<andythenorth>despite I would have to pal-convert every single grf I've worked on
14:32<andythenorth>or prevent the newgrf from being able to detect palette
14:32<andythenorth>or require the newgrf to set palette, prevent user from doing so
14:33<andythenorth>basically the current possibilities are stupid
14:34<Rubidium>jrabbit: sounds like a too old version of the graphics files for the version of OpenTTD you're running (the grf stuff that is)
14:34<andythenorth>not allowing user to change palette is currently correct, but hugely sub-optimal
14:34<andythenorth>(during game)
14:34<Rubidium>the other stuff is something with the sound driver which is rather something caused by/to be fixed by the library we use for sound playback
14:34<andythenorth>assuming grf doesn't use action 14....it's basically a crap shoot
14:35<andythenorth>the chance for each grf of picking right palette is 50:50
14:35<jrabbit>Rubidium: odd
14:35<andythenorth>and any wrong choice can ruin my game, but I might not find out for 50 years of gameplay
14:35<andythenorth>when I found out an essential grf disabled itself
14:36<Rubidium>jrabbit: well, your friend has installed a newer version of OpenTTD than the one Debian provides. Nothing odd about that
14:36<Rubidium>what would help him is updating the base graphics from inside the game
14:38<andythenorth>could grf version 8 ditch TTDP compatibility? And deprecate / mandate certain things?
14:38<jrabbit>is there a way to name my server in the directory?
14:38*jrabbit started it with -D
14:38<Rubidium>you can at least set it in the config file; only change it while OpenTTD is stopped or you run it with -x (don't save config file upon exit)
14:39<Rubidium>there's like a setting to modify it in-game as well
14:39<jrabbit>ah
14:39<Rubidium>try set server_name "boring name"
14:40<Rubidium>in the console
14:43<jrabbit>LSA lib pcm.c:7223:(snd_pcm_recover) underrun occured is thatwarning or critical?
14:43<jrabbit>*ALSA
14:43<jrabbit>from his logs
14:43<jrabbit>he says he doesn't see *any* servers ethier in the multiplayer list after switching it to internet
14:45<@planetmaker>andythenorth: grfv8 could certainly require certain things to be true or done or whatever
14:46<jrabbit>Rubidium: dpoes the server need the graphics?
14:46<jrabbit>it stops on authorizing he says
14:47<andythenorth>I wouldn't mind losing compatibility with lots of grfs
14:47<andythenorth>it would bring into sharp focus the need to not be stupid about licensing
14:48<andythenorth>"Your favourite grf doesn't work any more, and it's not sensibly licensed? Tough" :P
14:48<supermop_>why do we still have 2 palettes anyway?
14:49<andythenorth>hysterical raisins
14:49-!-dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:49<jrabbit>hes goign to try on widnows :\
14:50<jrabbit>oh well
14:50<andythenorth>and removing windows palette would cause whining
14:50<andythenorth>hmm
14:50<@planetmaker>andythenorth: grfv8 won't stop the backward compatibility hell
14:50<jrabbit>he couldn't conenct to this network even so I think something is FUBAR'd on his debian
14:50<andythenorth>planetmaker: why not? I am prepared to have my eyes opened :)
14:51<supermop_>ive drawn everything in win palette because i didn't know i could do otherwise
14:51<andythenorth>supermop_: same for me
14:51<supermop_>will I have to redraw everything?
14:51<andythenorth>it's stupid to be able to make the wrong choice as an author
14:51<supermop_>or can it be corrected in an automated fashion
14:51<@planetmaker>andythenorth: removing backward compatibility for *all* newgrfs (and it would be that for a time), certainly won't buy friends
14:52<@planetmaker>supermop_: conversion windows -> dos is automatable
14:52<andythenorth>supermop_: palette can be remapped with a photoshop action or such
14:52<supermop_>could it be roadmapped, to give people x months to update grfs?
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>i think you can convert the palette with grfcodec
14:53<andythenorth>planetmaker: why does it remove backward compatibility for all?
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>like "grfcodec -d -p2" and "grfcodec -e -p1"
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>to convert a windows grf to dos palette
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>maybe one can scan the newgrf whether it reads the current palette in action 6/7/9/D. and disable switching then?
14:56*andythenorth would prefer a nuclear solution :P One palette
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>also disable if it provides palette in action 14
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>the button is basically for "legacy" grfs
14:57<andythenorth>because action 14 is the mandated method...
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>+it's one of those things that may be handled better if we could assemble a grf config and check for errors in the "background", without disturbing the currently loaded game
14:59<andythenorth>grftopia would somewhat solve it
14:59<andythenorth>but grtopia will have a lot to check for
15:00<andythenorth>this palette thing is stupid from an authoring perspective too
15:00<andythenorth>'no right way' just makes authoring needlessly complex
15:00<andythenorth>nothing is gained by palette being an option when authoring
15:01<@planetmaker>Well, a grf v8 could ask for the dos palette. Though there's no good reason for that. Rather the variable to query the palette could be removed
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>edit all tutorials out there to remove the windows palette
15:01<andythenorth>removing the var would be my suggestion
15:01<@planetmaker>and mandatory palette definition in a14
15:01<andythenorth>exactly
15:01<andythenorth>100% straightforward
15:02<andythenorth>someone will now find the fricking unsolvable edge case :P
15:02<andythenorth>probably involving an author no-one wants to offend :P
15:02<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/GRF_Version_8 <-- off you go
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>but this will not help, because old grfs may still query the palette
15:02<@planetmaker>add it there
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15:03<andythenorth>announce that at some point, only grf v8 will be supported :P
15:03<andythenorth>with maybe 1 year pre-warning
15:03<@planetmaker>at least one year
15:03<@planetmaker>such things rather require a two-year rythm
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>now that is a stupid idea
15:03<andythenorth>why?
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>we're not apple
15:03<Rubidium>pff... OpenTTD only does the DOS palette, doesn't it?
15:03<andythenorth>backwards compatibility is a right arse
15:04<Rubidium>it happily converts it upon loading
15:04<andythenorth>so a newgrf that disables due to wrong palette is...what? wrong?
15:04<Lakie>Old?
15:04<andythenorth>well-intentionedly wrong?
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that is one broken newgrf, instead of 200
15:05<Rubidium>andythenorth: well, if it does that it's pre action14
15:05<Lakie>I imagine its mostly older grfs which existed before automatic palette convrsion was in OpenTTD.
15:05<andythenorth>and no-one can fix these grfs?
15:05<Rubidium>the problem is that it isn't fully automatic
15:05<Rubidium>we don't detect the palette from the NewGRF; it needs to be specified some way
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: how many grfs are still in the grf-pack and not on bananas?
15:06<andythenorth>no idea
15:06<Rubidium>too many I fear
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: too many
15:06<andythenorth>hm
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and the same thing will happen if you force grf version 8
15:07<andythenorth>so the alternatives are:
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>and there is actually no good reason to do that
15:07<andythenorth>- continue allowing users to play broken games with no warning
15:07<andythenorth>- go on a crazy coding mission to implement grftopia
15:07<andythenorth>- ??
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>- profit
15:08<andythenorth>hmm
15:08<andythenorth>what is the marginal profit on a download of openttd?
15:08<andythenorth>:P
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>the joy that your hard work gets appreciated
15:09<andythenorth>I like the idea of breaking loads of newgrfs
15:09<andythenorth>it would make the forums interesting
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15:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you mean more than "please allow changing newgrfs in the game" conversations?
15:09<@planetmaker>you don't want to become the anti-thesis of certain people, do you?
15:10<Rubidium>andythenorth: and at the same moment break savegame backward compatability, right?
15:10<andythenorth>yup
15:10<andythenorth>none of you like my suggestion? :P
15:11<andythenorth>hmm ok
15:11<@planetmaker>well, the backward thing could be solved by simply disallowing any newgrf change in a backward compatible mode
15:11<andythenorth>it would help if knew what I was talking about a bit more
15:11<@planetmaker>still, I don't think to disallow all non grf-v8 newgrfs is the path to go
15:11<Rubidium>well, personally I'd just drop the old crap. But that's because I don't use it, however I don't fancy the amount of whining that comes from that
15:12<@planetmaker>that's the worst
15:12<andythenorth>they'll whine, but not lift a finger to update it?
15:12<@planetmaker>those who whine are incapable
15:12<Rubidium>it's more $stupid user
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15:12*andythenorth is puzzled
15:12<Rubidium>that is addicted to $old newgrf
15:13<Rubidium>and is able to whine like a spambot
15:13<andythenorth>so old versions of openttd stopped working? I don't think so
15:13*andythenorth is still puzzled
15:13<Rubidium>try 0.3.5 on Lion ;)
15:13<supermop_>but thats like a defacto fork of openttd
15:13<@planetmaker>I can't run and compile OpenTTD <~0.3 or so
15:13<andythenorth>I only suggested this to try and help some of the users who are whining
15:13<andythenorth>not being able to change the palette is technically correct
15:13<@planetmaker>those binaries don't work anymore ;-)
15:13<andythenorth>but stupid from a user p.o.v
15:14<alluke>lion is junk?
15:14<supermop_>if you force a certain set of people to never use >1.1.x
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>like MorphOS users?
15:16<andythenorth>the only way to remove something like detecting palette is a grf version change
15:16<andythenorth>but if grf version can't be enforced, nothing is gained
15:16<Rubidium>action14 works fine for that
15:17<andythenorth>but not for this case of old grfs
15:17<andythenorth>if we need to keep old grfs we're stuck with broken behaviour :(
15:17*andythenorth is baffled
15:17*andythenorth plays dice wars
15:17<Rubidium>yeah, but action14 or grfv8 are equal with respect to what they can achieve
15:17<Wolf01>does somebody know how to add multiple items svn:ignore with "svn propset"?
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: how is a forced grf version bump going to help with old grfs better than a non-mandatory action 14?
15:18<Wolf01>s/items/items to
15:18<andythenorth>I am missing the point somewhere
15:18<Rubidium>Wolf01: items = files?
15:18<andythenorth>we already have non-mandatory action 14, but we still have this problem
15:18<Wolf01>files, folders...
15:18<andythenorth>so that's no answer
15:18<Wolf01>I need to set ._* recuirsively for files and _sourced as folder
15:19<Wolf01>*sources
15:19<Rubidium>Wolf01: I'd say find and xargs should do the job
15:19<Rubidium>andythenorth: just start with requiring action14. No need to go to grfv8 to do that
15:20<andythenorth>but then old grfs don't work?
15:20*andythenorth is feeling dumb
15:20<Rubidium>which is exactly what grfv8 would do
15:20<@planetmaker>:-)
15:20<jrabbit>if I change the map x/y in the cfg will the server generated map be larger?
15:20<andythenorth>but doesn't breaking old grfs demands a grf version change? :o
15:21<andythenorth>where is the variable for the palette anyway? I can't find it in specs
15:21<Rubidium>only if the behaviour of variables/properties changes
15:22<Rubidium>after all, if you add a very recent property in a NewGRF without 'escaping' it, it doesn't work in older versions of OpenTTD
15:22<Rubidium>because it doesn't know that property it disables (part of) the NewGRF
15:22<andythenorth>so I misunderstood the purpose of grf versions
15:22<andythenorth>they're not particularly stable
15:22<alluke>lakie
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15:23<@planetmaker>what *might* be an idea is similar to noai api: newgrf compatibility flag. Thus if all active newgrfs play by certain version rules, other things like adding newgrfs become possible
15:23<@planetmaker>simply on grounds that they - according to the specs - cannot do something bad, like disable thmeselves
15:23<Rubidium>but you need to know whether the to be added NewGRF does the same
15:24<@planetmaker>yes. Which would be indicated by an appropriate action14 entry or so
15:24<Rubidium>(I seem to remember a (mis)feature that allows disabling of other NewGRFs)
15:24<@planetmaker>otherwise: unsafe
15:24<andythenorth>^^ World's Most Broken Newgrf feature
15:24<Rubidium>and then you'll quickly get questions: why can't X be added by Y can be?
15:25<@planetmaker>thus: certain things are not allowed in a newgrf when it declares a certain action14 entry
15:25<Rubidium>s/by/but/
15:25<@planetmaker>Rubidium: sure one will get that.
15:25<@planetmaker>But better than none, right?
15:25<andythenorth>we swap one class of whining for another
15:25<@planetmaker>and the easy answer is: "old newgrf"
15:25<andythenorth>but maybe a better class
15:25<andythenorth>'lobby your newgrf author for an upgrade'
15:25<andythenorth>he
15:25*andythenorth might be able to find a dalestan quote
15:25<Rubidium>but what when the NewGRF author lies?
15:26<@planetmaker>probably this would require to remove all fatal newgrf errors and all options to query other newgrfs
15:26<Rubidium>we'll get back in the same piece of shit once again
15:26<andythenorth>things seem to have gone a bit wrong somewhere
15:26<@planetmaker>Rubidium: it requires to remove the newgrfs ability to depend on others. Hard way
15:26<andythenorth>the duty of the game is to maintain a reasonably sane API
15:26<@planetmaker>otherwise unsafe. Thus... no grf checks then
15:26<andythenorth>the duty of newgrf authors is to keep up with that
15:26<andythenorth>currently the API is insane
15:27<andythenorth>and newgrf authors are apparently to be treated with kid gloves
15:27<Rubidium>yeah, it's inherited by some 'insane' people
15:27<@planetmaker>thus also no check for other grfs or their parameters
15:27<andythenorth>but there are only two who really whine badly
15:27<andythenorth>and one is refusing to support ottd
15:27<andythenorth>and the other doesn't release
15:27<andythenorth>and insists ttdp is the reference spec
15:27<Rubidium>andythenorth: if you make the NewGRF specs sane, you're basically adding something completely new
15:27<Lakie>Eh, MB and SAC?
15:27<andythenorth>'reasonably sane'
15:27<Lakie>MB has been using Openn for aa while
15:27<andythenorth>nothing is actually sane
15:28<@planetmaker>Lakie: oz
15:28<Rubidium>sane, reasonably sane... all the same when talking about NewGRFs ;)
15:28<Rubidium>unimaginable
15:28<Lakie>I thought OzTrans isue was with some things not matching specs?
15:28<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=37389&p=706015&hilit=behooves#p706015
15:28<andythenorth>"As a coder in a rather disturbingly dynamic language, it behooves you to watch the spec and read every single change. Old limitations may disappear or new abilities may appear, and if you don't pay attention, you come out ... well, "smelling like roses" it ain't." - DaleStan
15:29<Rubidium>Lakie: nah, not implementing it fast enough
15:29*andythenorth misses the dalestan attitude
15:29<Lakie>Heh, thats such a minor point really.
15:29<Lakie>Not one to hold releases back by
15:29<andythenorth>basically a load of newgrf authors are lazy, misinformed, stupid or absent. And they made bad choices about licenses. Meanwhile player suffers.
15:30<Rubidium>so, better go for something completely different; something completely not NewGRF
15:30<andythenorth>that is interesting
15:30<Rubidium>something much more sane and human friendly
15:30<@planetmaker>xml?
15:30<Rubidium>woepsie... there goes support for the original graphics
15:30<andythenorth>that wasn't what I was advocating :P
15:31<Rubidium>andythenorth: you shouldn't break something subtly. That's going to haunt you for years
15:31<andythenorth>break it big :D
15:31<Rubidium>but that'd be more OpenTTD II
15:32<Rubidium>which won't be able to load OpenTTD (I) savegames anymore
15:32<Lakie>I remember Oskar suggesting some half scripting engine thingy
15:33<andythenorth>bah
15:33<Rubidium>but given the fact that OpenTTD's development seems to be crawling to a standstill lately I don't think it'll happen any time soon
15:33<andythenorth>it's probably 'done'
15:34<andythenorth>no interesting problems left
15:34<andythenorth>time for something new?
15:34<andythenorth>my projects are now a chore, not fun
15:34*Rubidium hopes somebody has some nice system for the compile farm that works reasonably out-of-the-box
15:35<Rubidium>as buildbot is just a disaster for our wishes
15:35<@planetmaker>not in love with it buildbot, eh?
15:35<Rubidium>it'll work fine for a single repository with a single trigger for compilation
15:35<Rubidium>single automatic trigger that is
15:36<Rubidium>but two triggers: doesn't work
15:36<andythenorth>if yacd was in trunk + eddi's crossing patch, "it's done"
15:36<andythenorth>who gets to make the last commit? :D
15:36<alluke>lakie
15:36<Lakie>Yes, alluke?
15:36<alluke>any progress?
15:36<Rubidium>e.g. nightly builds + ci on limited amount of CFs fails to trigger the nightly build because the last version was already compiled (by the ci)
15:37<Rubidium>and fetching from different repositories is something that fails pretty much as well
15:37<andythenorth>"rxxxxx: last commit. Good bye" :P
15:37<@Alberth>rxxxxx: that's all folks!
15:38<Rubidium>all wrong....
15:38<Rubidium>-Release: 42
15:38<Lakie>Not too much, been fairly busy this week alluke. I was in the process of working out which FIRS cargos to use on wagons last I was working on it.
15:38<@planetmaker>would hudson / jenkins be an alternative?
15:38<andythenorth>finish in style :)
15:38<alluke>ok
15:38<alluke>you can always ask me if you need to
15:38<Rubidium>planetmaker: hudson runs everything locally IIRC
15:38<alluke>btw
15:39<alluke>will they use cargo classes?
15:40<Rubidium>planetmaker: and that means only Linux builds (or cross compiles)
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15:40<@planetmaker>Rubidium: allegedly they support distributed builds
15:41<andythenorth>if it was 'done' all feature request / whining threads could simply be locked :)
15:41<Rubidium>I didn't find anything in the documentation
15:42<andythenorth>and all tickets closed
15:42<Wolf01>Terkhen, is it yours the svn-script project on google code? :D
15:42<Lakie>It'd be hard to use the FIRs cargos without cargo classes, or atleast, considerbly more messy.
15:42<alluke>ok cool
15:42<andythenorth>I closed a trac for a big piece of software earlier this year. Marked 150 tickets as "won't fix" and shut it :)
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15:43<jrabbit>ok so we got him hostign a game on windows, he has 3979 opened on the router
15:43<jrabbit>but the game gets stuck on "authorizing"
15:43<jrabbit>and shows it offline
15:43<@planetmaker>Rubidium: https://wiki.jenkins-ci.org/display/JENKINS/Distributed+builds
15:44<@planetmaker>but I'm not 100% sure whether it's just sharing CPU or really building different archs
15:45<jrabbit>gah this is such a shame, openttd worked great last time I played multiplayer
15:46<@Alberth>opened both tcp and udp?
15:46<jrabbit>3979/tcp open unknown
15:46<Rubidium>why-o-why are we still using ipv4 and nat?
15:46<jrabbit>only tcp
15:46<jrabbit>does it need udp as well?
15:46-!-KouDy [~KouDy@ip-94-112-27-160.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
15:46<jrabbit>(I assume nmap would tell me)
15:46<@Alberth>@ports
15:46<@DorpsGek>Alberth: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
15:47<@Alberth>this text seems to suggest you do
15:48<@planetmaker>jrabbit: the better reference than nmap would actually be OpenTTD's documentation. Which mentions the ports and the protocols
15:49<jrabbit>planetmaker: well I was jsut testing if he opened it
15:49<jrabbit>hes having issues...
15:52<frosch123>can someone summarise the result of the discussion of the last two hours?
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15:52<@planetmaker>frosch123: no real summary possible as there's no real conclusion
15:53<frosch123>why bother with old grfs and nfo stuff when we have nml?
15:53<@planetmaker>no, not that. NML had no bearing there
15:53<@planetmaker>it was purely about specs
15:53<frosch123>just make sure nml produces sane stuff
15:53<@Alberth>but that needs new sane primitives
15:54<@planetmaker>about newgrf-interoperability and how the current specs sink 9 out of 10 hopes to get a good solution there
15:54<frosch123>Alberth: sorry, i misworded. just make sure the input of nml is sane
15:54<Rubidium>planetmaker: don't forget savegame compatability regarding breaking stuff
15:55<frosch123>planetmaker: oh, was it about "newgrf authors are not able to cooperate, so openttd has to do it" ?
15:55<@Alberth>more like let's ditch the current specs
15:56<@planetmaker>in the end effect, yes. And about what to do with the old shit^Wstuff which is uncooperative
15:56<frosch123>do we have a better one?
15:57<andythenorth>it pretty much does come down to "newgrf authors are not able to cooperate, so openttd has to do it"
15:57<andythenorth>except openttd can't
15:57<andythenorth>and shouldn't
15:57*andythenorth is still puzzled
15:58<andythenorth>why do some badly-behaved newgrf authors - who aren't around any more - get to define what the spec should be?
15:58<andythenorth>^ (probably aren't around)
15:59<Rubidium>they defined it the way it is
15:59<Rubidium>if you want to keep compatability (savegame and/or 'mods'), you need to keep supporting the old crap
15:59<andythenorth>where is the var for palette anyway? I can't find it?
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16:00<alluke>colossal made set of small cars years ago
16:00<alluke>but they dont work on new ottd
16:00<alluke>grrrrrrr
16:00<andythenorth>if we keep supporting the old crap, we're supporting incompatibilty
16:00<andythenorth>e.g. disabling other grfs
16:00<andythenorth>and allowing newgrf to care about palette
16:00<frosch123>why do you bother about the palette?
16:00<Rubidium>andythenorth: the var in which context?
16:01<andythenorth>the var that the newgrf checks before it disables itself, breaking the game
16:01<@planetmaker>andythenorth: the whole issue is about newgrfs knowing about eachother
16:01<Rubidium>global pallete? default pallete? palette of the loaded newgrf?
16:01<@Alberth>which gets worse with town control :p
16:01<frosch123>err, isn't the palette issue somewhat solved?
16:01<@planetmaker>if that door was completely shut, many issues would be gone or at least made much less severe
16:01<Rubidium>andythenorth: in GRFConfig::palette?
16:01<frosch123>ottd has only one palette now, new grfs can specify their palette, so why bother about old ones?
16:02<andythenorth>search of newgrf wiki doesn't produce any useful results
16:02<frosch123>andythenorth: action 7
16:02<andythenorth>thanks
16:03<Rubidium>in that context: var 8D
16:03<andythenorth>ah
16:03<andythenorth>and that var is useful for ottd how?
16:04<andythenorth>apart from it allows newgrfs to break a game
16:04<frosch123>andythenorth: why?
16:04<frosch123>the user resp. the grf can basically choose what it shall return
16:05<Eddi|zuHause><Rubidium> why-o-why are we still using ipv4 and nat? <-- it's a failure of politics (who don't understand anything technical) to enforce transition on the monopoly-like structures of large ISPs
16:05<andythenorth>if the user sets the wrong palette (which is basically a 50:50 coin flip) then they can play 50 years before discovering an important grf is disabled
16:05<andythenorth>there is no way to know what the correct palette is
16:05<andythenorth>so it's a crap shoot
16:05<andythenorth>multiplied by the number of grfs
16:05<andythenorth>so basically any game is almost certainly broken
16:05<Rubidium>99% of the cases it's Windows
16:06<frosch123>i do not see the point in your argument
16:06<frosch123>shall we only allow grfs with dos palette?
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>now it's like microsoft saying: "we won't implement it [in older/widespread windows versions] because the ISPs don't use it" and the ISPs saying "we won't use it, because older/widespread versions of windows don't support it"
16:06<frosch123>and what would we gain by that?
16:07<andythenorth>frosch123: it was in response to Rubidium's last comment here http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=53881
16:07<Rubidium>but... andythenorth: what about making OpenGFX DOS paletted? Then OpenTTD will default for those to the DOS palette and the NewGRFS will simply be broken all the time
16:07<andythenorth>since then the user has posted exactly what I think the problem is ;P
16:07<Rubidium>and you can 'force' them to add the action14
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>nml already forces a palette entry (afaik)
16:08<Rubidium>them = newgrf devs
16:08<andythenorth>so
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>grfcodec can do that as well, with a legacy-parameter in case someone wants to support ancient TTDPatch versions
16:08<andythenorth>the argument is really odd
16:08<andythenorth>I don't even know if I can put it in words
16:08<frosch123>andythenorth: imo it makes no sense to change newgrfs in scenarios
16:09<andythenorth>"we don't allow palette changing in game because some newgrfs (in an attempt to enforce correct palette) might disable themselves, thereby breaking game"
16:09<frosch123>there are only two consistent ways
16:09<andythenorth>which is logical and correct, but just wrong
16:09<frosch123>1) do it like now. scenarios are savegames and depend on specific grfs and their versions
16:09<andythenorth>frosch123: carry on :) but I'm not suggesting allowing to change newgrfs
16:10<frosch123>2) do it the albert & terkhen way: make scenarios not depend on any particular grf at all, and always use the newest version when starting a game
16:10<Rubidium>the one where a scenario = heightmap + location/name of towns/industries?
16:10<andythenorth>in an attempt to protect user from a broken game they are required to instead play a palette guessing game which almost guarantees a broken game
16:10<andythenorth>so the result is: broken game :P
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>people want option 3) like they did before: use the scenario's grfs for industry/houses, but allow free choice of vehicle sets
16:10<andythenorth>I don't get it
16:11<frosch123>andythenorth: neverthelees, the palette argument is silly. either do it right and test activate grfs to check whether something changes and revert back before applying it to the game (you can also allow chaning parameters in that case), or just don't do it at all
16:13<andythenorth>frosch123: that's grftopia :P
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16:16*Rubidium wonders... if not having the right palette for a particular NewGRF is such a big issue and enforcing to support only GRFv8 is the solution, wouldn't that break the NewGRF. So why not say that the NewGRF is broken as it doesn't specify the right palette? Instead of laying the blame on OpenTTD not allowing to manually fix said NewGRF each time you start a new game
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>hm. *note* using a mouse on a cat is a bad idea
16:18<supermop_>what problems are being caused by the current paletting situation?
16:19<frosch123>we can display a big red text when adding the grf: "this grf does not properly specify colours, and may display sprites incorrectly. please contact the authors and ask for an update"
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: colours are very brown or very pink if the wrong one is used
16:19<supermop_>hmmm
16:20<supermop_>ok
16:20<andythenorth>is it a straw man case anyway? Does anyone know of a grf that disables when palette is wrong?
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: the main problem is that the "windows" palette is more widespread among popular older grfs (most actually get supplied in both palettes, but the windows one is more widely used), but the "DOS" palette is theee better and more logical one.
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: so if OpenGFX switches to the dos palette, all loaded grfs will default to dos as well, but a majority of those will be windows, and thus wrong
16:21<andythenorth>but we established they can be converted programmatically?
16:21<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the main solution is that ottd trunk only uses the dos palette now, and assumes win palette for all grfs by default
16:22<Rubidium>andythenorth: the palette *is* converted automatically
16:22<frosch123>i.e. trunk does not behave like 1.0 or 1.1 which use the palette of the baseset as default
16:22<Rubidium>but knowing which palette is used can't be done automatically
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: ah, interesting
16:22<andythenorth>yup
16:22<andythenorth>mechanical turk :P
16:22<andythenorth>human converts them
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16:23<supermop_>managed to crash opera there
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>maybe the NewGRF settings window should display whether the palette was read from the GRF or "guessed"
16:26<Rubidium>andythenorth: my assumption that there are NewGRFs that disable themselves is somewhat solidified by ActionB message-id 01
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>and a user switching the palette will result in MD5/palette pair being stored in the cfg
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16:28<andythenorth>not ID 01?
16:28<andythenorth>oops - my mistake
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16:29<Eddi|zuHause>storing the grfid is useless, because most grfs come in a DOS and Windows variant
16:29<andythenorth>those grfs are wrong :P
16:30<andythenorth>and now our discussion is circular :)
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>those GRFs are right as long as they are developed with TTDPatch in mind
16:30<@peter1138>why is that wrong?
16:30<alluke>ttdp is outdated junk
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>openttd being able to convert palettes is not that old
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16:40<frosch123>night
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16:44<andythenorth>hmm
16:45<andythenorth>I should update a FIRS cargo name: http://givemeonegoodraisin.blogspot.com/2009/04/word-of-day-recyclates.html
16:46<alluke>recyclates?
16:46<alluke>why not just call it rubbish or junk? :P
16:46<Chris_Booth>sounds very american
16:46<alluke>or shit or crap
16:46<Chris_Booth>why not call it recyclables?
16:47<Chris_Booth>or general waste
16:47<Chris_Booth>or refuse?
16:48<andythenorth>why not indeed
16:48<Chris_Booth>I like refuse it is the most 'Proper' term IMO
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16:53<Eddi|zuHause>"recyclables" says something entirely different than "waste"
16:53<andythenorth>indeed
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>the first one i'd translate with "Wertstoffe" and the second with "Abfall"
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>which have diametrically opposite connotations
16:54<andythenorth>it's a question of value
16:54<Chris_Booth>yes Eddi|zuHause, but what would refuse translate to?
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>Chris_Booth: i have never heard that word (in this context) before
16:55<andythenorth>it's very UK-english
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>they didn't teach this in school
16:55<Chris_Booth>yes, it is what we use as a collective term of both waste/rubish and recyclables
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>and it never occured on doctor who either
16:56<andythenorth>http://stats.oecd.org/glossary/detail.asp?ID=2262
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>Chris_Booth: i don't think there is such a word in german
16:56<@peter1138>refuse is pronounced differently to refuse too
16:56<andythenorth>you'd never choose to use refuse given a choice
16:57<andythenorth>you would possibly even refuse it :P
16:57<Chris_Booth>yes I think you would refuse someones refuse
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>Chris_Booth: if i hadn't been part of this discussion, i'd expect "refuse" to be "biological waste" (i.e. a word with 4 letters starting with s and ending with t) :p
16:59<Chris_Booth>well you wouldn't be that far out with that guess Eddi
17:00<opa>isn't it something (material) that has been refused
17:00<opa>+just
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>Chris_Booth: but there is nothing remotely relating to "recyclables" in that thought
17:01<Chris_Booth>When the term is used in the UK it is used to descibe unsorted waste
17:01<V453000>then you need to rename recycling plant to shitplant
17:01<Chris_Booth>or mixed waste
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>Chris_Booth: but germans are quite obsessive with sorting their waste :p
17:01<Wolf01>'night
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17:02<V453000>:D you mean their waste like refuse or their PET bottles from paper? :D
17:02<andythenorth>it has been an interesting day of ottd chat
17:02<Chris_Booth>aaah we are not so here, you sort you metal, plastic and card. you green waste and then brown
17:02<andythenorth>and I think I'll stop before it gets any worse :P
17:02<Chris_Booth>but they are all picked up from the street on the same day
17:02<Chris_Booth>in the same truck
17:02<Twerkhoven[L]>no black recycle box for glass and electricals and textiles yet cb?
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>Chris_Booth: we even sort green glass from white glass and brown glass :p
17:03<Chris_Booth>not yet TWerkhoven
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17:03<Chris_Booth>we have 2 bins 1 box and bags for card
17:03<Chris_Booth>glass isn't pickup from my house
17:03<Chris_Booth>have to take that back to the supermarket
17:03<Chris_Booth>or local recycling centre
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>at least in the cities there are glass containers on every second street corner
17:05<Chris_Booth>I wish that was the case
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>it's not usually picked up from homes
17:05<Chris_Booth>I have seen that in germany and in france
17:05<Chris_Booth>but in the UK we have to take it somewhere
17:05<@planetmaker>"Spannungsabfälle kommen in die rote Tonne"
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>paper may be picked up from home, but that depends on region. mostly it's just another container next to the glass ones
17:06<Chris_Booth>I liked what they had in austria, they had a glass bin in the supermarket and it gave you so many euros back for a given wieght of glass
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>then there's "recycleable waste" ("Wertstoffmüll", yellow) and "other waste" ("Restmüll", grey) picked up from homes. in cities also "biological waste" ("Biomüll", brown), in rural areas this is uncommon, as people usually have a compost in their garden
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20:16<blanham>is there any documentation for openttd's save game format? google is failing me
20:17<Eddi|zuHause>apart from the canonical documentation, the basic file format is RIFF, and the structure of the map is in docs/landscape.html
20:18<Eddi|zuHause>the structure of each chunk is best determined from the saveload handlers
20:18<Eddi|zuHause>in src/saveload/*
20:24<blanham>thanks
20:27<blanham>i have a crazy idea that i am weighing the feasibility of
20:27<blanham>namely, using the openttd renderer as the base of a rollercoaster tycoon clone
20:32<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say you're crazy, but that never stopped anybody :p
20:33<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what that has to do with the savegame format, though
20:34<blanham>to see if i could take the terrain data from rct and use it in openttd
20:35<blanham>as far as the height map and such
20:35<Eddi|zuHause>the problem with that idea is that openttd has no "cliffs"
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20:35<Eddi|zuHause>and no ability to rotate the map
20:36<blanham>oof, that is certainly a problem
20:36<Eddi|zuHause>the latterr is probably easy to implement, but there are no graphics for that
20:37<Eddi|zuHause>the former is probably also not too dificult to implement, but it's kinda bad when you have no way of seeing behind such a cliff
20:37<blanham>yeah, but my rendering skills are probably not up to snuff
20:39<Eddi|zuHause>main problem with rotating is buildings, expecially ones which span multiple tiles (industries, hotels, airports)
20:40<Eddi|zuHause>you might not immediately need to care about that, if you're trying to be independent from the TTD-graphics
20:40<Eddi|zuHause>most other graphics come in all necessary rotations
20:43<Eddi|zuHause>i'm saying it's not impossible to do these things
20:43<Eddi|zuHause>and in fact they are even fairly commonly requested
20:44<Eddi|zuHause>no real technical limitations prevent them, mostly missing (original) graphics
20:45<blanham>makes sense
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---Logclosed Thu Jul 21 00:00:14 2011