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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-07-21

---Logopened Thu Jul 21 00:00:14 2011
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02:51<@planetmaker>moin
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03:25<V453000>hello :p
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03:43<dihedral>good morning
03:43<@peter1138>not really
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04:16<dihedral>peter1138, it is here :-P
04:29<@peter1138>not enough sleep :S
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08:26<andythenorth>openttd is fascist
08:26-!-Terkhen [~Terkhen@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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08:26<andythenorth>and I want my money back
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>here you are.
08:26<andythenorth>am I? I was wondering where I was
08:27<andythenorth>now I know I'm here
08:27<andythenorth>thanks
08:28<andythenorth>openttd really does remind me of microsoft you know
08:28<andythenorth>and Rubidium is Bill Gates
08:29<Eddi|zuHause>you mean "guy that doesn't program that much himself, but cashes in on all the money"?
08:29<andythenorth>yeah
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08:30<andythenorth>jake has drawn some nice boats
08:30<andythenorth>long may that continue
08:30<andythenorth>then I may stop sulking and start coding
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08:46<@Belugas>hi hi
08:51<@Alberth>hi sir Belugas
08:53<@Belugas>good day dear sir Alberth :)
08:54<V453000>hello mr. co-realism-hater
08:54<V453000>:P
08:54<@Belugas>:D
08:59*TWerkhoven likes reality
08:59<TWerkhoven>reality has food
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09:02<V453000>reality is fine, unless some braindead people start up the word "realism" and connect the good reality with a game
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09:04<@planetmaker>reality is fine. fiction is fine - and is meant to be fun. Thus realism in fiction is always second to any 'fun' argument
09:05<@planetmaker>hm... if we ever get OSX binaries again, I guess I'll advocate to drop all ppc support ;-)
09:07<@Terkhen>hello
09:08<V453000>:p
09:08<V453000>hi Terkhen
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: so what about a repo for all CETS-related openttd patches?
09:14<Noldo_>CETS?
09:15<TWerkhoven>central european train set
09:15-!-DanMacK [~DanMacK@bas8-london14-1279293012.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #openttd
09:15<@peter1138>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14227779 hurr
09:17<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, question is: mercurial queues or a patched trunk?
09:18<@planetmaker>you sound like preferring a mq - type project, right?
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>not sure, they seem like fairly small and isolated patches
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>i'm still not very familiar with mq
09:19<@planetmaker>not difficult :-)
09:19<@planetmaker>hg qinit
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>there was something with versioned queues and unversioned queues
09:20<@planetmaker>hg qnew -m "Commit message" filename_first_patch
09:20<@planetmaker>well... you can create a hg repo inside the mq patches dir. That then can be used to gain a versioned mq
09:21<@planetmaker>the patches of a mq are stored in .hg/patches
09:21<@planetmaker>that's the dir you can then call hg init in to version it
09:22<V453000>patches for a train set? :o
09:22<@planetmaker>yup, we need it :-P
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>"hg qinit [...] This command is deprecated. [...] use "hg init --mq" instead.
09:22<@planetmaker>:-)
09:22<@planetmaker>I didn't need to inialize a queue in a new repo for long
09:22<@planetmaker>I mostly just use the same, but constantly changing queue in my trunk repo
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>"will create a separate nested repository for patches"
09:23<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: just start using the queue (hg qnew first.patch)
09:23<@planetmaker>http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/MqExtension
09:23<@planetmaker>and yes... qinit is deprecated in 1.5 it seems
09:24<@planetmaker>I'll need to check back with Ammler how exactly we solved the mq repos on the DevZone so that the openttd CF could pull from it
09:25<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I never have VCS control for the patches in the queue, I found it too confusing
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the CF should always pull tip, or not?
09:25<Ammler>the devzone is able to prepare a hg repo from mq for the CF
09:25<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, yes... but it needs a full repo, not the patches :-)
09:25<@Alberth>planetmaker: in 'default' ?
09:25<@planetmaker>Alberth, yes, IIRC
09:26<@planetmaker>i.e. the CF needs simply a patched trunk repo
09:26<Ammler>e.q. it creates https://hg.openttdcoop.org/32bpp-ez-patches.mq from https://hg.openttdcoop.org/32bpp-ez-patches
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: so steps: 1) create repo on devzone, 2) fill it with trunk, 3) clone repo to local, 4) add patches, 5) push patches?
09:27<@planetmaker>that'd not store the patches, but the modified trunk... ^ Ammler ?
09:28<@planetmaker>iirc there was *some* way such that you only need to push patches
09:28<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: clone https://hg.openttdcoop.org/openttd and then hg init --mq
09:28<Ammler>then push the mq to your devzone project
09:28<Ammler>well, or use hg.openttd.org...
09:29<Ammler>those just don't have tags and such
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: that leaves two questions: a) where do i get a devzone project from (and how to name it), and b) how do i push the queue repo?
09:31<@Belugas>Realism is fine for a game initially designed as such, lime flight simulator, racing cars and so on. Pushing a feature request, or begging for a feature to be corrected simply beuase it's not realistic sucks when the main subject of the game is not about realism, but about fictionnal fun
09:31<@Belugas>tadam!
09:31<@Belugas>sorry, out of contect, lagging...
09:31<@Belugas>context
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: b) "hg push --mq"?
09:33<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, from .hg/patches: just hg push
09:33<@planetmaker>maybe you way works also :-)
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>so. what about a)?
09:36<@planetmaker>Yexo, me or Ammler :-)
09:36<@planetmaker>hm... well, you're already a project manager. You can also create it yourself
09:37<@planetmaker>existing project managers can create new projects
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>i'm useless with such bureaucracy
09:37<@planetmaker>? Just create it
09:38<@planetmaker>well, what should be its name?
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>that was part of the question ;)
09:39<@planetmaker>then it's openttd-trainvars?
09:39<@planetmaker>not to mix up with openttd-train wars :-P
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>sounds alright
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>vehvars?
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>because it's also for roadveh
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>at least it should work
09:41<@planetmaker>ok
09:41-!-xabann [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
09:41<@planetmaker>wewa :-P
09:41<@planetmaker>close to wau wau close to miau ;-)
09:41<xabann>Hi, do I need Transport Tycoon Deluxe to make use of OpenTTD?
09:41<@planetmaker>xabann, no, you don't
09:41<@planetmaker>on windows: just use the installer and follow defaults
09:41<@planetmaker>on linux: use your packet manager
09:42<xabann>Hmm
09:42<xabann>In the past I always installed first TTD before installing OpenTTD
09:42<@planetmaker>Unless, of course, you insist to install an OpenTTD aged 3 years or older
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>xabann: you still can use the trg*.grf and sample.cat files from TTD
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>xabann: but you don't have to
09:44<xabann>Well, I don't own the CD anymore :)
09:44<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/openttd-vehiclevars <-- Eddi|zuHause
09:45<@planetmaker>project repo will be the usual path (analoguous to CETS). Just push your patches, nothing more
09:45<@planetmaker>repo might need a few minutes before it is created server-side.
09:47<Ammler>echo "openttd" > .devzone/mq/mainrepo
09:47<Ammler>so the devzone can create the repo for CF
09:47<xabann>hmm, the grafix are a bit different
09:48<@planetmaker>of course
09:49<@planetmaker>xabann, sure enough we may not just steal the original graphics; as such everything was drawn from scratch
09:49<xabann>oh
09:49<xabann>I have to find my CD then :))
09:51<@planetmaker>'fine', eh? :-P
09:51<@planetmaker>*find
09:52<Ammler>[15:46] <Eddi|zuHause> [15:31:28] Ammler: b) "hg push --mq"? [15:46] <planetmaker> [15:33:35] Eddi|zuHause, from .hg/patches: just hg push <-- that's the same
09:53<@planetmaker>:-) thanks
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>i think i got the theory now.
09:53<Ammler>planetmaker: you seem to use quite depreciated mq workflow :-)
09:53<@planetmaker>Ammler, yes... I hardly need anything else than hg qnew / qpush / qpop / qfinish
09:53<@planetmaker>and qdiff
09:54<@planetmaker>and qrefresh :-P
09:54<Ammler>qimport
09:54<@planetmaker>seldom :-)
09:54<Ammler>best way to apply a git patch
09:54<@planetmaker>I write the patches myself usually - or I don't need to qimport them
09:55<Ammler>or is patch able to apply binaries?
09:55<@planetmaker>no, it isn't
09:55<@planetmaker>but I can hg import it ;-)
09:56<Ammler>hmm, well
09:57<@planetmaker>I hardly keep external patch queues for longer... thus I just apply the patches without mq support
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10:10<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: btw. you once asked about saving password, there is extension keyring (http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/KeyringExtension)
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10:15<Ammler>please tell me if it is useable, then we could add it to our little guide
10:21<DanMacK>Hey Andy
10:21<andythenorth>hola DanMacK
10:22<@planetmaker>holladrioh DanMacK and andythenorth
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10:46<V453000>weird ... question: What colour does a duck have? Brown-ish looks odd, yellow is not obvious that it is a ducky an white is like goose but with short neck ...
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10:50<V453000>hm lets say brown is the one
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10:54<Eddi|zuHause>male ducks have a green head, female ducks are brownish-grey
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.fotogalerie.f-knieper.de/tiere/ente-duck-6188.jpg
10:56<@Belugas>daffy duck is black, with a white colar
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.ariva.de/divi-di-ente_a209450
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>i've never ever seen a "real" duck that was yellow...
10:59<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2cv_007.jpg ?
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i've not really seen one of those either :)
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.polizeioldtimer.de/images/ente.jpg <-- and this one's way cooler ;)
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>it's a "pol-ente" ;)
11:09<@Alberth>:)
11:09<@Alberth>but it is not yellow ;)
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>but green ;)
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11:26<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i can't edit the description of a ticket, only comments?
11:28<__ln__>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14201796
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2884 <-- thoughts?
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11:37<alluke>whats invalid chunk size
11:38<alluke>i get that when i try to load old cargodist game with new one
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>alluke: it means the patch does not provide any savegame compatibility
11:39<alluke>fuu
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>alluke: either stay with the old version, or start a new game
11:39<alluke>and there arent any savegame converters available?
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>very unlikely
11:40<alluke>damn it
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11:45<Eddi|zuHause>ah, i found where i can edit the description... it's very... hidden...
11:51<CIA-2>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22677 /trunk/src/toolbar_gui.cpp: -Doc: A few doxygen sprinkles in toolbar_gui.cpp
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12:13<CIA-2>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22678 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Doc: More doxygen sprinkles in MacOSX code and cocoa video driver
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12:36<__ln__>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KPS_9566
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>so many standards. we should have one unified standard!
12:44<__ln__>yes, as long as the unified one has the logo of the worker's party in it
12:48<@Alberth>obviously north korea will not accept a non-northern korean standard, so it would be KPS_9566
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>there was no east-german code page...
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>(that i know of)
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12:59<fjb>Written east-german was not that different from german.
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13:17<CIA-2>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22679 /trunk/src/newgrf_commons.cpp: -Change [FS#4692] (r22655): [NewGRF] Use a value of 0 to indicate the invalid waterclass in the nearby land info (0x60 ind. tiles, 0x62 houses, objects,...)
13:22<frosch123>the keyboard is older than east germany
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: maybe not the letters, but definitely the words :p
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>there might have been things like an upper case ß, if things went slightly differently ;)
13:25<frosch123>the german code page did not have an ß either, it only had a β
13:26<frosch123>(wrt. the dos codepage)
13:33-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>at the screen resolutions in use back then, there was not too much difference between both ;)
13:44-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust387.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
13:45<Rubidium>oh shoot...
13:45<Rubidium>just wanted to ask andy whether we should be more like apple
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22680 /trunk/src/lang/ (croatian.txt dutch.txt finnish.txt greek.txt serbian.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changes by habell
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: greek - 66 changes by kyrm
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: serbian - 1 changes by etran
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13:51<__ln__>Rubidium: can you resist buying an apple now that they have announced the new Full-screen apps feature in Lion?
13:51<Rubidium>andythenorth: we should be more like Apple?
13:51<andythenorth>not really
13:51<andythenorth>be more like microsoft
13:51<Lakie>Only just annonced such a feature, __ln__?
13:52<andythenorth>anyway openttd is clearly fascist
13:52*Alberth will recommend re-install for every problem
13:52<andythenorth>umm
13:52<andythenorth>wrt the circular discussion from yesterday
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: what was wrong with the old feature?
13:52<Rubidium>andythenorth: but we're like microsoft in many sense, e.g. obnoxious efforts to keep old stuff working
13:52<__ln__>Lakie: oh yes, http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/full-screen.html
13:52<andythenorth>oh god yes
13:52<@Alberth>andythenorth: re-install will help
13:53<andythenorth>anyway, grfs disabling themselves is - to borrow a quote - a misfeature
13:53<andythenorth>why not just refuse to start the game if a grf disables
13:53<andythenorth>there is no plausible reason why you'd want to start the game with a disabled grf
13:53<andythenorth>it leaves n other problems, but solves some
13:53<Rubidium>andythenorth: it's like applications not starting because the version of Windows is not right, instead of subtly not working right
13:53<@Alberth>because eg firs disables itself if i witch to toyland?
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: that doesn't fully work out either. remember the two people that vehemently demanded that we re-introduce the old behaviour of turning around vehicles? :p
13:54<andythenorth>Alberth: I'm not accepting that kind of argument
13:54<@Alberth>ie there are legitimate cases
13:54<@planetmaker>http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html
13:54<andythenorth>it's an unrelated edge case
13:54<@Alberth>and I don't know how to distinguish between them
13:54<andythenorth>name any benefit of starting a new game (not a save game) with grfs disabled
13:55<Lakie>I suppose you should spewcify the reasons for why it disabled, andythenorth.
13:55<@Alberth>no need to disable newgrfs
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: reuse the same preset for different climates
13:55<Lakie>Laziness
13:55<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: no ;)
13:55<Lakie>People not bothered to change their newgrf settings
13:55<andythenorth>Lakie: we can't specify the reasons - we have to assume that any reason the newgrf author chooses is valid :|
13:56<frosch123>we should add support for downloading newgrf presets from banans
13:56<Lakie>Well, cimate is pretty valid reasoning, similarly does not work with grf foo is valid?
13:56<frosch123>and then in the next step disallow players to pick their own grf configuration
13:57<Lakie>I can't imagine that going down well, with the community opr newgrf authors
13:57<andythenorth>none of these are benefits to starting a new game with disabled grfs :P
13:57<Lakie>As I said, laziness of not removing grfs which don't work in other climates
13:58<andythenorth>ok
13:58*andythenorth remains baffled
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13:59<Lakie>Ideally shouldn't OpenTTD not necessarily store the grfs which are disabled (when starting a new game) when saving?
14:00<Rubidium>ghehe...
14:00<frosch123>action7 makes a difference of grfs being present or being disabled
14:00<Rubidium>heh, just wanted to ask whether I remembered something like that correctly. Guess I did ;)
14:01<frosch123>http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/NewGRF_Configuration_in_Utopia <- wrt. "ideally" :p
14:01<Lakie>So why is a game with disbaled grfs a problem?
14:01<Rubidium>it's an andy problem
14:02<frosch123>i think he considers disabled grfs too complex for the average user
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>andy wants a system where people can add and remove grfs, with detecting the dangerous side effects
14:03<Lakie>Thats quite tricky, due to having to workout what'd change in the game..
14:03<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: more like s/with detecting the dangerous/without/
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: well, if dangerous side effects get detected, the change is refused
14:04<Lakie>I doubt you could ever get an automated syste which would always get that right though
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>and andy thinks with reducing the things grfs are allowed to do, this check gets easier
14:05<Lakie>Bit of an odd argument
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>exactly :p
14:06<Lakie>Well, it might make it easier, but doesn't it render them far less useful
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>that's the smaller problem
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>the bigger problem is that all existing grfs get invalid
14:07<Lakie>Thats true, which would be pretty cataclisic in hate mail...
14:08<@planetmaker>They need not get invalid.
14:09<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: are you aware of the build logs on devzone? ([19:19] <Brot6> cets: update from r64 to r67 done (375 warnings) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cets/nightlies/r67)
14:09<@planetmaker>But the enhanced 'allow to modify grfconfig' would then only be allowed when only newgrfs with 'limits'
14:10<@planetmaker>are active / about to become active
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: yes, the warnings are harmless
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>or rather: due to the fact the set is heavily unfinished :p
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14:16<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: you are free to go to https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkXAVZqXTFQxdHM3UlpWM1hPZWpfeTlkdnZsMldjSkE&hl=de#gid=0 and fill out the missing values ;)
14:19<Ammler>because of nml, i had to change errors to warnings ;-)
14:20<@Alberth>huh?
14:20<@Alberth>do you have an 'intelligent' build system or so?
14:21<@planetmaker>Alberth: if a 'this is deprecated' message terminates the build, it's not what is desired ;-)
14:22<@Alberth>yeah, a 'smart' system, that thinks it understands what it is doing.... NOT
14:23<Ammler>planetmaker: it's not that message
14:23<andythenorth>the "I changed climates and I'm too lazy to change newgrfs" case doesn't hold up as a benefit
14:23<andythenorth>it's actually another problem
14:24<andythenorth>grf x might be fine with grf y in tropic, but disable it in climate
14:24<andythenorth>result: broken game
14:25<@Alberth>what are you trying to achieve with non-disabling of newgrfs?
14:25<andythenorth>reduce the number reasons why players might want to change newgrfs in game
14:26<andythenorth>changing newgrfs is stupid
14:26<andythenorth>for obvious reasons
14:26<@Alberth>disabling is just another form of 'changing'
14:26<andythenorth>expand?
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: all that needs is popping up the newgrf config on game start, if there were errors
14:27<andythenorth>that's better than my suggestion of not allowing start
14:27<@Alberth>you may be able to take away one reason, but there are many many cases
14:28<andythenorth>no silver bullet
14:28<andythenorth>and other cliches
14:28<@Alberth>and many of them are user-related, so no hope of solving
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>bonus points for actually selecting the erroneous grf
14:28<andythenorth>is 'not being able to solve it all' a reason to not solve what can be solved?
14:29<@Alberth>first question to answer is do you actually want to rescue the current system?
14:30<andythenorth>rescue it from what?
14:30<@Alberth>I can only see a very long and painful road
14:30<andythenorth>all of these discussions seem to end in 'we need to ditch newgrf' which I find odd
14:30<@Alberth>rescue from kill -9
14:31<@Alberth>that may be the case, yes
14:31<andythenorth>this is why I'm baffled
14:31<andythenorth>we can't change anything apparently because we have to maintain legacy support - even for stuff that's just wrong
14:31<andythenorth>yet the proposed solution is often 'throw away all of newgrf'
14:32<@Alberth>different devs, different opinions :)
14:32<andythenorth>well yes
14:32<andythenorth>I don't really care that much
14:32<andythenorth>I play with newgrf developer tool on and change whatever I want
14:33<Rubidium>so, what concrete changes to the handling of NewGRFs do you propose?
14:33<@Alberth>I'd be in favor of cutting of broken stuff of the newgrf spec, but can you identify that, or is it just as hopeless as trying to remove an advanced setting?
14:33<@Alberth>*off
14:33<andythenorth>1. forbid grf disabling other grfs
14:33<andythenorth>2. don't start game with disabled newgrfs - show newgrf window
14:33<andythenorth>3. post information in useful places that DOS palette is best
14:33<andythenorth>4. strongly encourage action 14
14:33<@planetmaker>andythenorth: it's moderately simple:
14:34<@planetmaker>a) add a property which states that a newgrf cannot access other newgrfs at all
14:34<@planetmaker>b) enforce that property, if set by the newgrf
14:34<@planetmaker>c) if all active newgrfs have that property, set, allow also changes
14:34<@planetmaker>fallback to current behaviour if there's one which does not follow that
14:35<@planetmaker>of the active ones / to be active ones; not the complete lest
14:35<andythenorth>planetmaker: you propose *allowing* to change newgrf in game?
14:35<Rubidium>doesn't that get us back to the: why doesn't changing NewGRFs work for 99% of the cases for years because old NewGRFs stay around like cancers
14:35<@planetmaker>well. simple is the theory
14:35<andythenorth>changing newgrf in game should be a done argument
14:35<andythenorth>it shouldn't be allowed
14:35<andythenorth>there's too much that can go wrong
14:35<@planetmaker>whatever. adding newgrfs then maybe
14:36<Rubidium>andythenorth: you can do 3 and 4 yourself easily
14:36<@planetmaker>like adding vehicle sets to a map
14:36<andythenorth>Rubidium: I like those 3 and 4 for that reason :P
14:36<@planetmaker>if all newgrfs cannot talk to eachother, adding new vehicles is safe
14:36<andythenorth>that was the point of pools?
14:36<andythenorth>maybe not
14:36<@Alberth>planetmaker: and ECS + FIRS together?
14:36<andythenorth>boom
14:37<andythenorth>cargo cluster fuck
14:37<@Alberth>it breaks 'do not talk' principle
14:37<andythenorth>so continue to disallow adding
14:37<Rubidium>I don't see what option 1 would achieve; okay, not disabling another... but you can still disable yourself based on another NewGRF
14:37<andythenorth>that's fine
14:37<andythenorth>disabling other grfs is just plain rude
14:38<@planetmaker>Alberth: they're not vehicles ;-)
14:38<@Alberth>planetmaker: so 'vehicle sets do not talk' :)
14:38<@planetmaker>industry newgrfs probably need to stay an exception
14:38<@planetmaker>possibly, yes
14:38<@planetmaker>but you can only allow that, if neither can listen
14:39<@planetmaker>or the industry newgrf could disable XY when it finds vehicle AB
14:39*Rubidium ponders whether it's feasible to make a NewGRF that disables one part of competing sets of NewGRFs
14:39<@planetmaker>Rubidium: sure
14:39-!-jrabbit [~jackirssi@74-222-207-54.dyn.everestkc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:39<@planetmaker>like one ECS vector is easily done
14:39<@planetmaker>or one of opengfx+ newgrfs or whatever
14:40<Rubidium>about option #2; the game is technically already started if you want to be able to show that window. Next question is, when is it disabled? It could pretty well throw a warning and skip all sprites, and still be effectively disabled without knowing that
14:41<@planetmaker>Rubidium: that's why my a) was 'forbid all newgrfs to see and listen to eachother'
14:41<andythenorth>true
14:41<@planetmaker>only if that is obeyed completely we can allow adding vehicle newgrfs
14:42<andythenorth>there's nothing can be done about the 'skip all sprites' case
14:42<andythenorth>except berate any newgrf author who does such a thing
14:42<Rubidium>planetmaker: that'd mean that there's no way to detect e.g. swedish rails, so it might get pretty messy w.r.t. introduction of track types. Or am I overlooking something?
14:42<andythenorth>there's not enough berating of newgrf authors :P
14:42<Rubidium>although... they should all just be using a single specification of rail types
14:43<Rubidium>but they don't
14:43<Rubidium>maybe that ought to be fixed as well
14:43<@planetmaker>Rubidium: that's true. But there's the anonymous check for railtypes. So that'll work
14:43<@planetmaker>one can check for labels being available
14:43<andythenorth>nobody dares touch cargo classes because MB will be after them
14:43<andythenorth>all it takes is one person...
14:44*Rubidium sacrifices andythenorth for that job ;)
14:44<andythenorth>no no
14:44<andythenorth>if it wasn't for MB I would already have done my own alternative classes
14:44<andythenorth>which would have beeen a Bad Idea
14:44<andythenorth>someone being pernickety about spec is good
14:47*andythenorth remembers HEQS used to disable all vehicles in toyland
14:47<andythenorth>nothing ottd can do about that
14:47<andythenorth>users asked me to change it.
14:47<andythenorth>I changed it
14:48<@planetmaker>andythenorth: default vehicles is something else
14:48<andythenorth>what - whether a set disables them?
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14:50<andythenorth>for reference - HEQS only used to disable it's own vehicles in toyland iirc
14:50<andythenorth>although maybe it also disabled the default vehicles
14:50<andythenorth>I forget
14:51<andythenorth>anyway, I fixed whatever it was that was requested
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14:54<@planetmaker>the most problematic wrt newgrf configs really is only the cross-talk
14:55<@planetmaker>that makes adding additional vehicles (or say other landscape or tree or newobjects newgrfs) so dangerous.
14:56<@planetmaker>if you always do the same, independent of other newgrfs... that's unproblematic
14:57<@Terkhen>the system is too complicated? :P
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14:59<andythenorth>planetmaker: that's another % fix
15:00<andythenorth>there are probably enough % fixes to make most of the issue go away
15:00<andythenorth>without navel gazing whether newgrf is all wrong
15:00<andythenorth>but still....adding some types and not others is complex
15:00<andythenorth>and you have to be sure there's no action 0 for a cargo or such in a vehicle grf
15:01<@planetmaker>that can in principle be checked
15:03<@planetmaker>andythenorth: yes, it's a %fix, as you call it. But makeing all newgrfs incompatible with OpenTTD is not a good solution, I think
15:03<andythenorth>it's probably quite a horrible graph of what can and can't be cross-talked though?
15:03<andythenorth>it's valid for FIRS to disable in presence of station names grf for example
15:03<andythenorth>yet station names would seem safe
15:03<@planetmaker>the other way is via the scenario path - just regenerate industries, houses and alike and re-initialize everything from point 0
15:03<@planetmaker>with a certain discrepancy
15:04<@planetmaker>andythenorth: the station name newgrf defines industries. So in principle it's easy to know that
15:04<andythenorth>does it? :o
15:04<@planetmaker>it "just" needs the players to recognize / know that
15:05<@planetmaker>andythenorth: yes. That's why it's incompatible
15:05<@planetmaker>you define in FIRS also station names. Via industry property you-know-what
15:05<andythenorth>oh yes, that's an industry prop not a station prop
15:05<andythenorth>I recall
15:06<andythenorth>seems to be a lot of work
15:06*andythenorth wonders about a social factor
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15:16<andythenorth>how about this?
15:16<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/no_action_14_1.png
15:16<andythenorth>or maybe this: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/no_action_14_2.png
15:16<aditsu>hi, what are the major changes from 1.0.5 to 1.1.1? I found some changelogs in the wiki but they are really long; so far I mainly noticed depot naming, and the train length was divided by 2
15:16<andythenorth>:P
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15:17<Ammler>well, openttd could just assume windows palette for nonaction14 grfs
15:18<andythenorth>not using action 14 is lame for n reasons
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15:18<andythenorth>solving the palette issue is a % problem
15:18<andythenorth>hmm
15:19<Ammler>which other?
15:19<andythenorth>savegame compatibility
15:19<andythenorth>remember all those boring chats we used to have about grfid
15:19<Ammler>md5sum
15:19<@planetmaker>andythenorth: the palette issue is a real non-issue
15:20<andythenorth>I think it's an issue
15:20<andythenorth>using the windows palette is a worse choice
15:20<andythenorth>I should have made one that said "This NewGRF is lame: it uses the Windows palette"
15:20<Ammler>the only issue with palette is that we use bad names for it :-)
15:20<@planetmaker>aditsu: the changlogs are there for a reason... and the list of lines starting with 'feature' is not dozens of pages
15:21<@planetmaker>you have a changlog enclosed with your binary
15:21<andythenorth>Ammler: I assumed that windows palette was best, due to windows being newer than DOS :)
15:21<andythenorth>bad assumption
15:21<Ammler>yes, it should be called reduced and full
15:22<andythenorth>he
15:22<@planetmaker>well, it is like it is
15:22<andythenorth>indeed
15:22<Ammler>planetmaker: we were able to get ride of "patches" in settings :-P
15:22<@planetmaker>grfcodec and nml could warn about the use of the windows palette
15:22<@planetmaker>problem solved
15:23<andythenorth>yup
15:23<@Terkhen>aditsu: there is a changelog included with openttd, you can also check it here: http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/tags/1.1.1/changelog.txt
15:23<@planetmaker>what one could do for added fun add a 3rd improved really 256 colour palette ;-)
15:23<@Terkhen>it includes also all "minor" changes though
15:23<@planetmaker>60 colours more than now ;-)
15:23<Ammler>or use 32bpp only
15:24<@planetmaker>slower
15:24<Ammler>hmm
15:24<@planetmaker>well, let's assume we want to keep 8bpp and 32bpp
15:25<@planetmaker>and a 3rd palette ... bad choice to mention it here ;-)
15:25<Ammler>performance is a valid reason
15:27<aditsu>planetmaker: 109 lines
15:27<@planetmaker>features? I'm surprised
15:28<@planetmaker>have fun :-P
15:28<@planetmaker>my memory is too bad
15:28<aditsu>plus 39 "Change"s
15:28<Ammler>aditsu: maybe the news article tells the main changes
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15:30<Wolf01>hello
15:31<@planetmaker>hi Wolf01
15:32*planetmaker remembers sloped stations ;-)
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15:36<aditsu>I'm playing a new multiplayer game now, and it's running much slower than I'm used to
15:36<aditsu>could that be a server setting?
15:36<Rubidium>sounds like you're normally playing fast forward
15:37<Rubidium>or the server is too slow to actually handle the game at the right speed
15:37<@planetmaker>or the server is running a heavily overloaded map
15:37<aditsu>no, I'm talking about multiplayer games, at normal speed
15:37<aditsu>the map is big but not huge
15:37<Rubidium>multiplayer goes as fast as single player
15:37<@planetmaker>and the vehicle count is 5000?
15:38<aditsu>there are quote a lot of trains though, let me see..
15:38<aditsu>I estimate there are about 600 vehicles
15:38<Rubidium>or actually, multiplayer goes as fast as the server could run it in single player excluding things like pausing
15:39<aditsu>yes, but one big difference with multiplayer is that I can't fast forward
15:39<@planetmaker>of course you can't
15:39<@planetmaker>I'd not say thank you if you fast-forwarded the game I was playing, too ;-)
15:39<@planetmaker>thus it's simply not possible
15:40<@planetmaker>(mostly for technical reasons, though)
15:40<Wolf01>planetmaker: I would like to continue it, but I have no time at the moment, and if I do, I don't have enough willpower :P
15:40<aditsu>sure, I was just explaining that it's not about normal speed vs fast forward
15:40*planetmaker hugs Wolf01 :-)
15:41*Rubidium wonders whether he has to repeat that the speed of multiplayer is that same as non-fast forwarded play of the exact same game in single player on the server
15:43<Rubidium>unless the server is at its max capacity. Then running it as (dedicated) server is faster than running it as GUI single player, though there'd be no measurable difference between GUI multiplayer server and GUI single player or GUI multiplayer client
15:48*aditsu wonders why everybody seems to think that I got something wrong and they need to explain it
15:49<Rubidium>you were asking whether multiplayer is slower for some reason
15:49<aditsu>I was asking why this particular game could be slower than other ones
15:49<aditsu>actually, let me time it..
15:51<@planetmaker>aditsu: and you got exactly the possible answers to your question. Why do you complain now?
15:51<aditsu>10 days in about 38 sec
15:51<@planetmaker>@calc 38/10/74
15:51<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 0.0513513513514
15:52<aditsu>planetmaker: well, I got the answer about 3 lines after the question, I'm just saying that the next 20 or so lines were unnecessary
15:52<@planetmaker>maybe it's an under-powered server. But we told you that already
15:53<@planetmaker>... ok. as you wish
15:55<aditsu>huh, actually, it's running quite a lot faster now, maybe the server was busy with something else
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16:35<__ln__>is 'h' pronounced in latin?
16:37<@planetmaker>that depends on whom you ask, I guess. But usually yes
16:38<@planetmaker>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILS6OANQnIc ;-)
16:39<__ln__>umm, teaching pronunciation without sound.
16:41<@Terkhen>good night
16:41<@planetmaker>good night Terkhen
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16:42<@planetmaker>comments say it's not the classical pronounciation shown there
16:43<__ln__>i would only trust a youtube video by a native latin speaker
16:45<@planetmaker>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-cjEAHXnZ8&feature=related <-- a version with voice :-)
16:45<@planetmaker>native? :-)
16:46<__ln__>yes :)
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16:46<@planetmaker>so you need some bishop who grew up in vatican ;-)
16:50<Rubidium>rather someone who grew up in ancient Rome
16:50<Rubidium>as pronounciation changes quite a lot in a few thousand years
16:51<@planetmaker>he didn't say 'classical latin' ;-)
16:52<Rubidium>well, then any pronounciation is right ;)
16:52<Rubidium>as I don't quite trust the pronounciation from the Vatican
16:52<__ln__>so in classical latin 'h' is pronounced, but not in spanish, italian nor cockney.
16:52<Rubidium>the mess they made of thanking the Dutch for the flowers is quite big
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16:54<@planetmaker>__ln__: yes, that's what I seem to recall, too
16:56<__ln__>what went wrong and when? :)
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16:58<@planetmaker>languages change indeed... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahI5DYakC0I <-- quite hard for me to accept as German ;-)
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16:59<@planetmaker>in other parts of the carmina burana they might sing one or another latin dialect - whoever performs it
17:00<Wolf01>'night all
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17:01*__ln__ is reading grammar of italian atm
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17:12<frosch123>night
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17:13<__ln__>congratulations greece for your new 1.09*10^11 € loan
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17:17<@planetmaker>http://www.ai.uga.edu/mc/latinpro.pdf <<-- __ln__
17:18<@planetmaker>http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/latinlanguage/qt/latinpronounce.htm
17:18<__ln__>thanks
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17:27<__ln__>Berolinum, Monacum, Brunsvicum, ...
17:27<@planetmaker>Nunc est dormendum. Bona nox
17:28-!-Lakie [~Lakie@82.152.255.237] has quit [Quit: .]
17:28<__ln__>nunca está dormiendo. buena noche?
17:29<@planetmaker>indeed. *dormiendum
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17:34<__ln__>pity i've never studied latin. would be useful on #openttd and in vatican.
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17:35*Prof_Frink did GCSE latin
17:38<__ln__>the finnish broadcasting company transmits news in latin once a week on radio.
17:38<Prof_Frink>And was somewhat surprised when the characters from my Latin course turned up in Doctor Who.
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18:43<ccfreak2k>What do you call people that speak Latin?
18:43<ccfreak2k>Dead.
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18:54<lugo-><frosch123> we should add support for downloading newgrf presets from banans << i think this would very much destroy most arguments for a voting/rating system for newgrfs
18:55<lugo->how is that not done yet ;)
19:02<Ammler>the download counter should also go as it seems not working anyway
19:03<Ammler>it looks like an "age counter"
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19:18<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler/planetmaker: i now pushed the mq repository with the 3 patches
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19:21<Eddi|zuHause>and of course i forgot setting the username :p
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19:23<Ammler>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/openttd-vehiclevars/repository/committers <-- you can map here
19:25<Ammler>you need now to tag with svnrev you want the CF to build against
19:25<Ammler>then enable release building
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>how do i do that?
19:25<Ammler>and enable testing so it does alert you if patch does not apply or build anymore
19:25<Ammler>hg tag r<svnrev>
19:26<Ammler>well, first the build settings
19:26<Ammler>mkdir -p .devzone/mq && echo "openttd" > .devzone/mq/mainrepo
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>what where how?
19:27<Ammler>shall I do for you?
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>svn rev is r22680
19:28<Ammler>or let me show in a clone
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>yes, please show me
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19:47<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: https://hg.openttdcoop.org/openttd-vehiclevars-demo and .mq
19:48<Ammler>and you can now clone it with "hg qclone https://hg.openttdcoop.org/openttd-vehiclevars-demo.mq"
19:48<Ammler>the openttd CF needs to use the .mq repo
19:49<Ammler>oh, btw. not sure if the findversion.sh bug is fixed in the meantime
19:50<Ammler>does findversion still report the patch as version?
19:51<Eddi|zuHause>no idea
19:51<Ammler>well, it should work anyway...
19:52<Eddi|zuHause>the version string is totally weird
19:52<Eddi|zuHause>says something like "OpenTTD qtip tip patch_nameM"
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19:53<Ammler>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4588
19:55<Eddi|zuHause>so... do i understand that right testing/enable and and releases/enable are empty files, and mq/mainrepo contains "openttd"?
19:55<Ammler>yep
19:56<Eddi|zuHause>"md -p .hg/patches/.devzone/mq"?
19:56<Ammler>yes
19:57<Ammler>or just pull from my repo :-)
19:57<Eddi|zuHause>better if i do that right once ;)
19:58<Ammler>GT from 32bpp patch is a bit absent and I had some changes, need to check, if testing will still work, but the repo creating works
19:58<Ammler>testing runs around the same time when nightly are created
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19:58<Ammler>openttd nightlies
19:59<Ammler>testing simply applies the patches to default and tries to build openttd
19:59<Ammler>if that fails, it triggers a ticket
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>so, i pushed this now, and i wait for nightly build time tomorrow?
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.och-noe.de/index.php?comic=34
20:05<Ammler>yes, http://hg.openttdcoop.org/openttd-vehiclevars.mq for CF is already created
20:05<Ammler>what is what you need to tell Rubi
20:06<Ammler>this is also what people can use if they don't want to use mq
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20:13<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.och-noe.de/index.php?comic=37 <- that's one for peter1138, if he knew german ;)
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20:29<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: it also creates this: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/openttd-vehiclevars/releases/r22680/
20:30<Ammler>and good night :-)
20:30<Ammler>(the rpm is not really useful, just for checking if building worked)
20:32<Ammler>the openttd CF does then more useful binaries
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---Logclosed Fri Jul 22 00:00:15 2011