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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-07-22

---Logopened Fri Jul 22 00:00:15 2011
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03:20<@Terkhen>good morning
03:23<__ln__>hyvää huomenta
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03:38<dihedral>morning
03:41<@planetmaker>Salvete
03:41<V453000>hyyy
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04:48-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
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05:37<andythenorth>morgen
05:39<@Alberth>today
05:42<KittenKoder>Oh hi, I thought everyone was asleep right now.
05:42<@planetmaker>zzzZZZzzz
05:42<KittenKoder>:p
05:43<KittenKoder>Working on attempts with realistic track layouts.
05:44*Alberth looks for Belugas and V453000
05:44<@planetmaker>:-D
05:47<Noldo_>"realistic" mentioned! Take Cover!
05:47<@Alberth>going to draw us a few zillion new sprites?
05:47<KittenKoder>LOL
05:48<KittenKoder>I want rounded tracks. >.>
05:48<KittenKoder>Gimme rounded corners!
05:48<KittenKoder>:p
05:50<@Alberth>I think your chances are much better if you start an openlomo project
05:50<@Alberth>or revive one of the previous attempts
05:51<KittenKoder>Me, I've been a big addict... I mean fan of TT for a looong time. >.<
05:52<KittenKoder>Just the people in the another IRC channel got tired of me talking about it.
05:57<@planetmaker>unless you want to draw and code rounded corners yourself...
05:59<KittenKoder>I was tempted to.
05:59<@Alberth>and not only the rounded tracks, but also all train NewGRFs and train base sets need additional sprites
06:00<KittenKoder>That's the problem./
06:00<@Alberth>and immediately after that, you get better roads, with more road vehicle sprites
06:01<@Alberth>yes, and for that reason I don't see it happening in openttd
06:01<KittenKoder>^_^ I know.
06:01<@Alberth>you are pretty much killing everything
06:01<KittenKoder>It's just a fun gripe.
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06:04<@Alberth>diagonal bridges and tunnels have a much better chance if you want to code something in that area
06:04<@Alberth>or diagonally going up a hill
06:05<Ammler>or diagonal stations
06:06<fjb>Moin
06:06<Ammler>en guete :-)
06:06<@Alberth>moin fjb and Ammler
06:07<fjb>Grüezi Ammler
06:07<fjb>Moin Alberth
06:07<@planetmaker>holla fjb
06:07<fjb>Moin planetmaker
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>dobre dien
06:15<MNIM>augh german slang
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>those are two of the three czech words i know...
06:17<fjb>Moin Eddi|zuHause
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>(the third one is 'pivo', of course) :p
06:18<MNIM>hahaha
06:18<MNIM>I used to be a pivo. :D
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>"pivo" means "beer"
06:20<MNIM>I know. It's also a scouts' rank in the netherlands.
06:20<MNIM>needless to say, pivo flows freely :P
06:20<MNIM>not free, one coin per bottle, but still pretty dirt-cheap
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06:38<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I like the 'disallow tree chopping trick' , but it also makes track building virtually impossible
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>the values probably need tweaking anyway
06:41<@Alberth>another option would be to make towns not care about trees :p
06:44<fjb>But we love trees.
06:45<@planetmaker>especially in Stuttgart ;-)
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>those people are way beyond tree loving :p
06:45<@planetmaker>http://www.greenaction.de/kampagne/60000-alte-baeume-sollen-gefaellt-werden-httpwwwnabu-braunschweigdeflughafenhtm <-- though... that's less than 5km from here ;-)
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>it's a forest! it's meant to be cut down!
06:50*Alberth thinks most people are against the airport expansion instead
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06:51<@Alberth>we always need to rescue such forests when they are in the way of something expanding
06:52<fjb>Who cares for CO2, lets kill all the trees.
06:52<@Alberth>fjb: CO2 with trees only works if you NEVER chop them
06:54<fjb>At least you should not burn the wood.
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>trees handle only like 20% of the world's CO2
06:54<@Alberth>and some trees in western europe are nothing compared to the deforestation happening in Brazil
06:54<andythenorth>trees are a pretty good carbon sink whilst they're growing
06:54<andythenorth>that they have problems doesn't make them useless
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06:56<andythenorth>hmm
06:56<andythenorth>I mostly hang around with people who want to solve hard problems well
06:56<andythenorth>which is fun
06:56<andythenorth>but has a massive downside
06:56<andythenorth>they tend to dismiss 10% and 20% solutions
06:56<andythenorth>instead of banking the improvement and moving on
06:57<andythenorth>which can lead to all solutions being rejected
06:57<andythenorth>leaving a 0% improvement
06:58<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/tree_build_limit.diff <-- well. That should link the tree building to the terraform limit
06:58<@planetmaker>needs testing, though
07:01<@planetmaker>and questionable whether sensible... linking it to clear or to terraform... or should it get its own setting or none at all (would be most simple)
07:01<@planetmaker>it's currently making use of the 'clear' limit
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>there's only one single photo of the ET41 on the whole internet :(
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07:08<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: wrong. Already wiki has two
07:08<@planetmaker>three
07:08<fjb>I have one photo in my book.
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: where?
07:09<@planetmaker>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKP_class_ET41 and translations
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: that's the wrong ET41
07:10<fjb>Looks very different from the ET41 I'm thinking about.
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=DRG-Baureihe_ET_41&action=edit&redlink=1 <-- it would be here, but the article does not exist
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.elektrische-bahnen.de/history/mdland/vorortverkehr.htm
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>that is the photo i found
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>the lower one
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.elektrische-bahnen.de/history/mdland/elT1201_k.jpg <-- or this small one
07:13<fjb>I have a picture in this book which shows the other side and a two color scheme (but the picture is black and white).
07:13<@planetmaker>lool :-)
07:14<fjb>But the colors of that time should be known.
07:14<fjb>My scanner is not working right now.
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>colour schemes were pretty standardised at that time
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: power and weight stats would be useful as well
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>i only got lengths and top speed
07:15<fjb>weight 66t
07:16<fjb>top speed 100km/h
07:16<fjb>570kw
07:16<fjb>(Stundenleistung)
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>TE and axle weight?
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>and weight of the middle and end wagons individually
07:17<fjb>Speed (St.lstg.) 81km/h
07:17<fjb>Sorry, no.
07:18<fjb>Hm, they say (1A)(A1) w2t
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07:18<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, that's what i noted here as well.
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>i'll just put 66/4 as axle weight
07:19<fjb>Length 22900mm
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>that's probably close enough
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07:20<fjb>Wheel diameter 1000mm
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>but while you're here: can you look over this table and see whether your book has any of the missing values? https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkXAVZqXTFQxdHM3UlpWM1hPZWpfeTlkdnZsMldjSkE&hl=de#gid=0
07:22<fjb>The red parts?
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>yep
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>can skip over the swiss and austrian ones for now
07:23<fjb>The wagons of the ET41 were like the 2 axle Einheitspersonenwagen.
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07:24<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but i don't really have any statistics about those either
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>the wagons in this list have currently some made up values
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07:25<Eddi|zuHause>particularly hard to find are power values of the very early steam engines, and TE values for all kinds of railcars
07:26<@Alberth>wouldn't a museum have that information, or know where to find it?
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>all current values in there are based on internet research, mainly wikipedia
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07:30<fjb>I fount a book a book with some BLS stats.
07:31<fjb>CE 6/6 to RE 4/4.
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>those are JVassie's entries, i have not touched them. but feel free
07:44<fjb>Hm you habe BR50 and BR52. The BR52 is a simplified BR50. The simplification where individually made and some simplified engines got the number 50. Most stats are the same, beside the weight. BR52 weights up to 3t less.
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's why the 52 is not in the "core" set
07:46<fjb>Ant it is unknown when the last 52s were decommissioned. Most probably endet as spare parts for the BR50.
07:47<@planetmaker>fjb: you should add your knowledge to that table, if possible :-)
07:51<fjb>You have most stats. How can I fill in what I find?
07:51<fjb>And if you have BR52 you also need BR43. :-)
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>get a google account, and ask planetmaker to add you as an eligible person
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>we have the 43
07:51<fjb>I have a google account.
07:52<fjb>Oh, then I overlooked the BR43.
07:53<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: you have exactly the same rights with that spreadsheet as I do ;-)
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yes. but... ;)
07:54<@planetmaker>fjb: but if you tell me your google account... I'll add you to editors
07:54<@planetmaker>tsk tsk @ Eddi|zuHause ;-)
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>i'm currently thinking about how to do the articulation... if i continue like i did now, i.e. middle and end wagon a different ID, we quickly run out of IDs <128
07:55<@planetmaker>yes... another patch for our patch queue :-P
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>we might work around that with more dummy wagons, but then the callbacks might get more complicated
07:56<@planetmaker>yes...
07:59<fjb>I have the decommission date of BR44 at DB, but not at DR. How do I fill that in?
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>just put one number
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>decommission date is mostly decorative, might be used as an indicator for the lifetime, but we may as well put some made up data for better gameplay
08:04<@planetmaker>hm... andy should probably again read http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000054.html
08:16<fjb>There were a lot of VT137 and SVT137...
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i mostly put the DB numbers there, like VT04
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>because (S)VT137 is useless as a categorisation
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08:18<Eddi|zuHause>it was like "we put all railcars with diesel engine and 4 axles in there"
08:21<fjb>Where did you find the TE? Or did you calculate it?
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08:24<Eddi|zuHause>if it's a formula in the field, i calculated it from mass
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>if it's a number, i found it somewhere
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08:25<Eddi|zuHause>feel free to correct my rather crude formula ;)
08:25<fjb>I have the weight of the BR01.10, but not the TE.
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>steam engines usually have "reibungsmasse" given, which i just multiplied with 0.35*9.81
08:26<fjb>And I have the weight of the ET31 (of the full train), but the it is much longer than the powerd part in the table.
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>it's 3 mostly identical wagons, so it'll probably be enough
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>the ET31 actually was unusual in that all three wagons were driven
08:28<fjb>Should I devide it by 3?
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>yes
08:29<Eddi|zuHause>most electric railcars of that time were one driven wagon a few middle wagons and a steering wagon
08:29<fjb>Yes
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>the number looks a little low
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08:39<fjb>ET31: 145.1t
08:39<fjb>Length: 68840mm
08:40<blathijs> /win 20
08:40<blathijs>woops
08:44<@planetmaker>why only win 20 times? ;-)
08:48<@Belugas>hi hi
08:49<@planetmaker>hi ho Belugas
08:50<@Belugas>mister maker, i salute you
08:51<@Belugas>and i was thiking about you yesterday evening :) there were heat lightnings on the sky. I took something like 150 photos of them
08:51<@Belugas>Of course, been the first time, i did not had some good shots
08:51<@Belugas>plus, i took my 18-55 instead of the 70-300
08:51<@Belugas>so wide angle
08:51<@Belugas>booo
08:51<@Belugas>silly me
08:52<@planetmaker>:-) Lightening is a bitch to take good shots of
08:52<@planetmaker>I usually fail
08:55<@Alberth>hi hi Belugas
08:55<fjb>Moin Belugas.
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09:13<@Belugas>indeed, planetmaker, indeed
09:13<@Belugas>hello sir Alberth :) you too fjb
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09:20<@Belugas>planetmaker: "usually fail". that means that sometimes, you do have some good results, right?
09:20<@planetmaker>well... long(er) ago I managed to make some images with a lightening. I'd not call them great though
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/357/ <-- the "really long" track class scheme (15 types)
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>and of course it contains a typing error...
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>that's what you get for being case sensitive...
09:24<@planetmaker>ach... track classes without game fun effect are boring. They're micro-management
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09:25<Eddi|zuHause>the more track types you have, the higher you can do the spread between cheap and expensive ones
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>so a high speed track really can cost millions per tile ;)
09:27<@planetmaker>but what's the fun in that?
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>but this is meant as the "micromanagement" version
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>the "basic" version should not contain more than 3 normal, 3 electric and two 3rd rail
09:28<@planetmaker>that many?
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>lower than that and you might not bother at all
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>can do one 3rd rail, but then you have difficulty running mainline trains on them
09:30<@planetmaker>like 5 track + 1 3rd are enough imho
09:30<@planetmaker>but yes, ML might then not run on 3rd rail
09:31<@planetmaker>but a basic track scheme should not be too extensive but be really basic
09:31<@planetmaker>like an introduction to the axle weight scheme
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>"really basic" variant proposal: DBan, DBa3, DBBn, DBdn, DBde, DBDe
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>but that is almost too reduced imho
09:34<@Belugas>would it be fun?
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09:34<Eddi|zuHause>Belugas: if it is too reduced it would be less fun, because you get redundant engines
09:35<@Belugas>meeehh... that is what I call removing my argument...
09:36<@planetmaker>DBan, DBBn, DBBe, DBCe, DBDe, 3rdR
09:36<@planetmaker>where 3rdR probably DBc3
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: no heavy unelectrified?!
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>that removes like 80% of the non-electric engines
09:37<@planetmaker>hm... how does it 'remove' them?
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: add DBCn to that list, and "cheat" some of the DB engines to lower track class (D->C)
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09:46<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: if at all, remove DBBe from that list, as almost all electrified lines were eligible for 20t, except some of the badensian ones (Wehratalbahn)
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09:49<@planetmaker>Well... strictly necessary are only DBAn, DBCn, DBCe, DBDe - and maybe DBdn
09:50<@planetmaker>though it doesn't make sense to have the C class faster than the D class
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09:58<@planetmaker>andythenorth: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000054.html <-- I'd like to recommend you to read that article (again) ;-)
09:58<@planetmaker>;-)
09:58<andythenorth>planetmaker: I'm exactly working on that problem now, in a whole other context
09:58<@planetmaker>:-)
09:59<andythenorth>is it related to newgrf legacy support in your view?
10:03<@planetmaker>that was what I thought of, yes
10:04<andythenorth>I suspect that all of these newgrf discussions jump to black and white
10:04<andythenorth>when maybe the situation is more subtle
10:04<andythenorth>but the subtle parts are hard because there are so many edge cases
10:05<@planetmaker>yes
10:05<@planetmaker>but we're not in a rush either and we can work out the subtle things and parts
10:06<@planetmaker>it needs not big jump all at once
10:06<@planetmaker>A big jump would also always haunt us
10:06<@planetmaker>And be quite bad for the community
10:07<@planetmaker>as it would be at least divided then ;-)
10:07<andythenorth>ha
10:07<andythenorth>but we could plan for a big jump in future
10:08<andythenorth>really the big jump is probably made up of smaller behaviours
10:08<@planetmaker>as usual ;-)
10:08<andythenorth>frosch already wrote the grftopia spec
10:09<andythenorth>but that is really a *big* project :O
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10:11<@planetmaker>well, it is. There's generally A LOT which can be done
10:11-!-Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e090e25.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd
10:11<@planetmaker>it 'just' needs doing
10:14<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: you should add extension to your patches
10:14<Ammler>.diff
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: how do i rename them?
10:14<Ammler>hg qrename
10:15<Ammler>it is better for the syntax highlighter
10:16<Ammler>and afaik also for downloading...
10:24*planetmaker must resist to write a flame reply: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=958995#p958995
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i added 4 possible track schemes to the tracking table
10:25<andythenorth>planetmaker: don't reply :)
10:25<andythenorth>it's trivial to break the game by switching grfs
10:25<andythenorth>he just got lucky :P
10:26<@planetmaker>well. He writes himself "I only managed twice..". Multiply that by the amount of users, with a 1% reporting it and divide that by time and developer ;-)
10:26<andythenorth>microsoft probably don't take freedom from users on a whim either
10:27<andythenorth>about 5 years ago I started noticing how many really insanely good programmers had spent time at ms
10:27<andythenorth>and how much respect people who know have for ms
10:27<andythenorth>not liking ms products or brand is one thing
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you mean like it took them 10 years to introduce a feature that blocks non-administrators from installing random software?
10:28<@planetmaker>download count is ~100000 / year or so for major versions
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10:29<@planetmaker>hm... 1.0.5 is funny. 250000 downloads. Way more than 1.0.0 or 1.1.1
10:29<andythenorth>probably got linked somewhere
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the last .x is available for much longer time
10:30<andythenorth>and that
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: 6 months instead of 2
10:30<@planetmaker>probably that's it indeed
10:31<@planetmaker>though... this week 1.0.0: 1000; 1.0.5: 160; 1.1.0: 60; 1.1.1: 14180.
10:32<@planetmaker>Why is 1.0.0 relatively high? Probably because of its special number
10:32<__ln__>http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/22/blast-rips-through-norways-capital-injuries-reported/
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10:33<__ln__>http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/norge/1.7722919
10:33<@planetmaker>no-one downloaded nforenum this week
10:33*planetmaker wonders whether NML should get a similar download link like grfcodec / nforenum
10:35<@Alberth>so they also get 0 downloads :p
10:35<@planetmaker>:-)
10:35<@planetmaker>Nah, I'm actually meanwhile quite surprised how many people start to pickup NML
10:35<@planetmaker>it starts to become established
10:36<@planetmaker>so, seems to be a useful project to more than just three newgrf authors ;-)
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10:39<andythenorth>so
10:39<andythenorth>over time
10:39<@Alberth>You expect that new authors would prefer long unreadable sequences of hex numbers rather than something with words?
10:39<andythenorth>more and more people will post the newgrf developer tools workaround :)
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>more moderators will edit that out of their posts :p
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10:41<Eddi|zuHause>there they go...
10:42<@Alberth>openttdcoop is not so stable :p
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10:46<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: renaming done (i think)
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: so what's the next step in getting the CF to build it? bug Rubidium?
10:50<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: fixing the CF
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds fun :p
10:52<Rubidium>buildbot doesn't seem to like multiple 'pollers' for building from different repositories, which is more or less where I got stuck
10:53<Ammler>http://hg.openttdcoop.org/openttd-vehiclevars.mq <-- in any case, this would be the repo for CF
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.gsmhelpdesk.nl/read.php?id=6221&ch=1 <- "net neutrality" in dutch: "we can't block skype anymore, so we limit bandwidth to 0.1Mbps"
10:56<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: that's more like: well, these phone users used to sponsor internet with calling, but now they don't call anymore so the income from the internet must equal the costs, instead of the income for internet being vastly smaller than the costs
10:57<Rubidium>and basic demand and supply mechanism correcting for a shift in demand
10:59<MNIM>simple solution: do not build phones with net access. problem solved >.<
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: that's like the GDR producing colour TVs without PAL support
11:01<MNIM>what?
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>colour TV had originally 3 different standards: german PAL, french SECAM and american NTSC
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>the russians licensed the french SECAM system, and forced it upon all eastern european countries
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>including east germany, which would rather have used the (better) PAL system
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11:04<Eddi|zuHause>now TV sets can easily support both SECAM and PAL, since they are not hugely different, but since only west german TV was broadcast in PAL, and watching west german TV was generally frowned upon (but not actually forbidden)
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>so some braindead officials tried to push colour TVs without PAL support into the market
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>but nobody actually bought them :p
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11:05<Eddi|zuHause>(no PAL support means west german TV can only be watched in black&white)
11:06<@planetmaker>or vice versa ;-)
11:06<@planetmaker>As kid I always wondered why the DDR-TV was always only b&w
11:06<MNIM>lol
11:07<MNIM>well, you're having a chicken&egg problem there
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>funnily enough, even though east german TV was broadcast in SECAM, it was actually internally processed as PAL and only converted at the last step
11:07<MNIM>well that helps, lol
11:07<MNIM>long live the plan economy or something
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>supposedly PAL was better for cutting etc.
11:08<MNIM>either way, a mobile phone is not a pc, a palmtop, a tablet pc, a netbook or a laptop. it needs no internet.
11:08<MNIM>I dunno, I prefer knives to cut something
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: what if i want to go online with my laptop through my phone?
11:09<MNIM>...that's like sending an email by posting it to a third world country, letting them open it up and sand an email to you saying you've got an email with the scanned, or even worse, typed over contents
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but i expect there was no real market for watching east german TV in west germany :p
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: but the actual point is: why should i phone with my phone, when i can skype with my phone, which is way cheaper?
11:10<@planetmaker>I expect not. Maybe for "Sandmännchen"
11:10<MNIM>because you don't have internet ;)
11:11<MNIM>I don't have, anyway
11:11<MNIM>if I did though, I can't say I wouldn't (i'm a cheap-ass)
11:11<MNIM>but that isn't my fault for misusing an internet connection, that's the company's fault for funding internet with it's phone revenue.
11:12<fjb>Polizeiruf 110
11:12<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: used to be cheaper because voice paid for data
11:12<MNIM>EG poor market strategy, suck it, you corporate bitches!
11:13<MNIM>we'll have another such dilemma soon, though
11:14<MNIM>when it starts to occur to people that watching tv on your pc is far cheaper than having a separate tv subscription
11:15<MNIM>augh, which *moron* at loki decided that the enter key is a valid option for scrolling through a text file?
11:15*fjb didn't switch his tv on for three month.
11:16<MNIM>I used to for movies
11:16<Rubidium>fjb: what a waste of electricity
11:16<MNIM>but every time I watch a movie on a commercial channel I remember again why I like to torrent shit
11:16<fjb>My tv really wastes electricity.
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>politicians are stupid... they put up an internet vote how to name a tunnel, and then get completely crazy when the outcome turns to be "Bud Spencer Tunnel"
11:21<MNIM>why would that be an outrage?
11:21<MNIM>also lol hacked
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11:31<@planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=959032#p959032 <-- Eddi|zuHause, do you think that's an appropriate reply?
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11:42<MNIM>oh that felt so good
11:42<MNIM>just ripping apart some bots in ut
11:42<MNIM>pointless death and destruction!
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12:00<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: what's wrong with it?
12:01<@planetmaker>not helpful and needlessly sarcastic
12:01<@planetmaker>i.e. IMHO a clear case of "better not answered at all"
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: that's the closest to "i certainly won't explain game exploits to you"
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12:02<@planetmaker>it's an honest question which deserves a better answer. Or none
12:03<@planetmaker>and if "you won't explain it" then simply don't. But don't spill acid
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see the problem, though
12:04<@planetmaker>nor do I see that with a proper explanation
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12:24<@Alberth>one step closer to rotated airports!
12:25<@planetmaker>Alberth: yes... in principle it's all possible already. Though the easy path via a rotation-variable for the tiles themselves is not yet there
12:25<@planetmaker>thus one has to go currently via different airport tiles in the different layouts
12:26<@planetmaker>something which holds me back a bit
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12:43<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/trackspeed.png <-- meh @ trackspeed
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i totally feel with you :)
12:45<@planetmaker>but the max speed seems to be inserted there automatically
12:46<MNIM>nutracks does that already
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>we could also do a version without max speed
12:46<@planetmaker>OpenTTD does that, MNIM
12:47<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: yes, possibly. It could simply be set via parameter
12:47<@planetmaker>but... not now :-)
12:47<@planetmaker>First I want to get it roughly into a form that track types can be added somewhat easily
12:51<@planetmaker>@logs
12:51<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
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13:05<frosch123>[18:25] <planetmaker> thus one has to go currently via different airport tiles in the different layouts <- why?
13:05<@planetmaker>frosch123: I can't query the airport's rotation from tile level
13:06<@planetmaker>err_not_implemented ;-)
13:06<frosch123>the rotation i available in var40 of the airport
13:06<@planetmaker>yes. But no parent scope
13:06<@planetmaker>for tiles
13:07<frosch123>hmm, ok
13:07*frosch123 wonders what was the reason for that
13:07<@planetmaker>that's not done yet as towns for example would be similarily valid
13:08<@planetmaker>stations have no station tiles
13:08<@planetmaker>thus something has to be made up or decided for airports
13:08<frosch123>so we need multiple related objects
13:08<@planetmaker>like two parent scopes. yes
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>can't you query the parent scope's parent scope?
13:09<frosch123>no :p
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. airport tile -> airport -> town
13:09<@planetmaker>currently not. And there's no feature where there's a parent's parent scope
13:10<frosch123>planetmaker: industry tiles
13:10*planetmaker suggests grandparent scope. Oh, right :-)
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>oma!
13:10<frosch123>anyway, i remember there were at least two useful alternative scopes for vehicles
13:11<@planetmaker>previous and head?
13:11<frosch123>first articulated part and engine-providing-the-engineoverride
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>speaking of which, can the parameter for a 60+var be a value calculated with a varaction2?
13:12<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: variable 7b
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>because i kinda need the parameter to be "-(position in vehid chain)"
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>or similar
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>might be an obiwan in there
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13:38<@planetmaker>hm, so it seems the GUI sprites for railtypes are unessential... luckily actually
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13:43<Eddi|zuHause>i'd like the gui sprites to not be replaced actually
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13:44<@planetmaker>So do I
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22681 /trunk/src/lang/greek.txt:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: greek - 2 changes by fumantsu
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14:12<__ln__>http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,776061,00.html
14:15<frosch123>why is a finish guy linking to news about norway written in german?
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14:16<Eddi|zuHause>maybe he didn't find a french news
14:16<@planetmaker>haha :-)
14:16<@planetmaker>I guess that's called 'global village'
14:17<frosch123>(note that reading norwegian news about norway would be fine, just like reading foreign news about your home country)
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14:20<__ln__>i chose a widely spoken language because i assumed many of us can't read norwegian
14:21<@planetmaker>ach so :-)
14:21*planetmaker spontaneously would assume another language being more widely understood among the participants of this channel
14:21<@planetmaker>;-)
14:23*__ln__ looks for news articles in dutch
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14:26<andythenorth>efenink
14:27<@planetmaker>h'andy ;-)
14:27<Chris_Booth>nice and handy XD
14:27<@planetmaker>Hirundo: thanks for spec update wrt the random bits in CB 0x3B
14:28<@planetmaker>I somewhat was distracted and forgot ;-)
14:28<@Alberth>efenink andy
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>wait... i can make a game desync based on transparency settings? (var 1B)
14:45<@Terkhen>depends on how (if) openttd implements it
14:46<frosch123>ottd intentionally does not implement that variable :)
14:46<Rubidium>I guess nobody used it yet and/or it never came up in the reviews of settings that affect MP stability
14:46<frosch123>oh crap, it does
14:47<frosch123>we only disabled the "current railtype of the gui"
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>it should probably be returning a fixed value in multiplayer
14:49<@Terkhen>heh :P
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14:54<@planetmaker>which var 0x1B?
14:54<frosch123>newgrf.cpp:5171
14:56<@planetmaker>hm, interesting
14:56<@planetmaker>indeed we should just generally disable it, I think
14:56<frosch123>just adding comments :)
14:56<@planetmaker>:-)
14:58<@planetmaker>interestingly it does / did only implement 6 bits - which transparency now has 7 meanwhile
14:58<@planetmaker>actually... 9
14:59<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22682 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: [NewGRF] Disallow accessing variable 1B due to desync reasons.
14:59<@planetmaker>\o/
14:59<frosch123>planetmaker: the wiki only documents the original 6
14:59<frosch123>though ttdp actually has more as well
15:07<@planetmaker>hm... shouldn't more of those global variables be documented in the NewGRF wiki?
15:08<frosch123>planetmaker: some are documented on varact2 page, some on action7 page, and some on actiond page
15:08<frosch123>depending on where they are useful
15:08<frosch123>there is a item in to TODO list of the specs wiki to explain these interactions
15:09<andythenorth>hmm
15:09<andythenorth>maybe I should work on FIRS
15:09<frosch123>btw. i think we need some small icons indicating ottd support "no", "0.6", "0.7", "1.0", "1.1" and ttdp support "2.0", "2.5", "2.6"
15:10<frosch123>+ "no"
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: there's still some dependency stuff not right. like i just changed a pnml file in src/templates, but it didn't rebuild
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>actually, that might be my fault.
15:12<@planetmaker>nice idea, frosch123.
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i think Uwe had such icons in his signal guide
15:13<@planetmaker>yes, I thought of some like those
15:14<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yes, something like that, but with the version
15:14<frosch123>and also some explicit "no support" signs
15:14<@planetmaker>the global vars should move away from action7
15:15<@planetmaker>separate page?
15:15<frosch123>planetmaker: not sure
15:15<@planetmaker>it's quite cluttered now...
15:15<frosch123>the actiond ones are very specific
15:15<frosch123>iirc there are even writeonly ones
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: disregard my last complaint, it was me not actually including the file where it should be
15:16<@planetmaker>:-)
15:16<@planetmaker>frosch123: yes... the write-able ones are definitely specifc. Write-only... interesting... which?
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>i managed to get completely invisible vehicles now! :)
15:17<frosch123>planetmaker: however, maybe it would work if the table had columns for availability in action 2, 6, 7, 9 and D
15:17<@planetmaker>the 32px wagon width in depots?
15:17<@planetmaker>that's an idea
15:18<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: old shoe in new boxes? ;-)
15:18<frosch123>planetmaker: 9f (ttdp only)
15:18<frosch123>"Reading this variable isn't reliable, so you must only write to it."
15:18<@planetmaker>:-)
15:19<TWerkhoven>lol
15:19<@planetmaker>I'll first create a summary page, I guess. Then one can merge that into the single pages where it might be referenced
15:21<frosch123>hmm is orudge around already?
15:21<frosch123>if we had the parser extention, we could filter the list when including it in some other page
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>anybody got an NML syntax highlighting for Kate?
15:22<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: Terkhen had not for kate but something else a list of syntax words... somewhere in the general devzone files
15:22<@planetmaker>or maybe in NML files section
15:23<@orudge>frosch123: hello
15:23<frosch123>hello orudge :) we came up with some extension requirements for the wiki in the past weeks
15:23<@orudge>OK
15:23<@orudge>let me know and I'll see what I can do :)
15:24<frosch123>http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SpecialInterwiki <- for linking between ottd, tt and specs wiki
15:24<frosch123> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:DumpHTML <- for creating offline specs
15:25<frosch123>http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ParserFunctions <- for conditionally doing stuff in templates
15:25<@planetmaker>ah, the htmldump wouldn't be bad either
15:25<@Terkhen>I never uploaded it :P
15:25<frosch123>(extracted those from the logs)
15:26<@orudge>aww, none of them have Debian packages, will have to install them the old fashioned way :)
15:26*Terkhen has been doing non-openttd stuff that he had been neglecting
15:26<frosch123>dumphtml needs a custom cron job anyway afaik
15:27<@orudge>hmm, the interwiki one should be handy for language stuff, too, which I need to do at some point (on the main wiki)
15:30<+michi_cc>Maybe also http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:DynamicPageList_(Wikimedia) (could be used to autogenerate the callback overview for example).
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15:40<Eddi|zuHause>i had a request for the wiki: in the TOC for the callbacks, omit the numbers before the heading
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Unbenannt,%201.%20Jan%202032.png <-- how do i fix this offset? it was better, before i disabled the default vehicles (which had some dualheaded vehicles)
15:43<@planetmaker>yes, that'd be nice. But it's an autogenerated TOC... so not that easy
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: that only means that the generator needs to be tweaked ;)
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15:44<Eddi|zuHause>not that it is more difficult ;)
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15:50<@orudge>frosch123: OK, they should be enabled. Interwiki stuff may require sysop permissions; I've not actually looked into it in detail right now.
15:51<frosch123>all of them? :o
15:51<@orudge>frosch123: and dumphtml is simply a PHP script rather than an extension as such
15:51<frosch123>wow, great :)
15:51<@orudge>all of them = Interwiki, DumpHTML, ParserFunctions, DynamicPageList
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15:54<@orudge>hmm, DumpHTML may require some hacking because I don't think it expects us to have multiple wikis served from a single installation
15:55<@orudge>anyway, let me know if there are any issues with those extensions
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15:58<frosch123>he, interwiki links has a ton of defaults configured :s
15:59<@orudge>oh?
15:59<frosch123>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Special:Interwiki
15:59<frosch123>i wonder whether we should delete most of them, or just not bother :)
15:59<@orudge>hm, so it does
16:00<@orudge>I would probably suggest removing them, to be honest
16:01*orudge pokes around
16:03<@orudge>well, I've emptied the interwiki tables
16:04<@orudge>feel free to add any new ones :)
16:14<frosch123>:)
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16:15<lpj>hi
16:16<lpj>came here to ask if anybody have problem open openttd after the Mac update to OS Lion?
16:17-!-lpj [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit []
16:17*andythenorth won't be upgrading to that
16:17<andythenorth>for n reasons
16:17<@planetmaker>dunno,... my god is he impatient
16:18<@orudge>OpenTTD seemed to work OK on Lion when I tested it
16:18*andythenorth applies cba
16:18<@planetmaker>I'll only test it next week... my new HDD only arrives on Monday :-P
16:18<@planetmaker>And I'll not jeopardize this system ;-)
16:18<andythenorth>no PowerPC apps == no photoshop
16:18<@orudge>well, I had one of the Lion pre-releases installed for testing purposes, and indeed now have Lion final installed on my external disk for testing purposes
16:18<andythenorth>no photoshop == no pixels
16:19<andythenorth>also my excel won't work anymore
16:19<@orudge>the new SDK/compiler/XCode breaks lots of stuff, though, that Wine relies on
16:19<andythenorth>so screw Lion :P
16:19<@orudge>so won't be upgrading on my main system for a while yet
16:19<@planetmaker>he
16:19<@orudge>andythenorth: I guess you have relatively old Excel... 2004?
16:19<andythenorth>yup
16:19<@planetmaker>I guess that'll be how I handle it too: keep lion on the external HDD
16:19<andythenorth>I used to be early upgrader
16:19<@planetmaker>at least for some time
16:19<andythenorth>now I don't care
16:21<@planetmaker>frosch123: how is action6 important for those variables?
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16:27<frosch123>planetmaker: action6 works with the action79d variables as well
16:27<frosch123>though i am not sure about the usefulness :)
16:27<frosch123>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Template:Ottd <- subjective comments?
16:28<@orudge>oh, hmm
16:28<@orudge>wrong channel, whoops
16:29<andythenorth>how do I svn revert?
16:29<frosch123>svn revert list-of-files
16:29<andythenorth>so there's no recursive or -a option?
16:29<frosch123>or svn revert -r list-of-dirs
16:29<frosch123>svn revert -R .
16:30<andythenorth>yay
16:30<andythenorth>it's case sensitive :P
16:30<andythenorth>I did google for that first, but found bad advice
16:31<frosch123>hmm, what prefix should we use for links to the ottd wiki?
16:31<@planetmaker>frosch123: the no I'd indicate by a red x over the icon
16:31<@planetmaker>it's also smaller
16:31<@planetmaker>which it shouldn't be
16:31<frosch123>i just used "ottd" for the compatibility template
16:32<frosch123>hmm, let's try the parser extension
16:32<@planetmaker>hm, so it's actually the text within that image?
16:32<frosch123>what?
16:32<@planetmaker>sorry, I only meant the icon, not the template use
16:33<@planetmaker>the template looks very fine. Just the 'no support icon' I'd graphically change a bit :-)
16:39<frosch123>hmm, how to draw a cross with gimp?
16:39<frosch123>some things are easier with paint :p
16:40<frosch123>let's use the text tool and write ✕ :p
16:40<@planetmaker>:-)
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16:46<frosch123>planetmaker: maybe put the readonly/writeonly in a speical action d column?
16:50<@planetmaker>hm, I where do I find the svn revs of the single tags?
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>svn log svn.openttd.org/tags/blah --limit 1
16:52<frosch123>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Template:Ottd <- updated
16:52<frosch123>orudge: parser extension works :)
16:53<@orudge>frosch123: excellent
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: svn info svn://svn.openttd.org/tags/1.1.0
16:55<@planetmaker>thx, Eddi|zuHause. I actually needed all :-)
16:55<@planetmaker>but it helped
16:56<@planetmaker>frosch123: you mean yet another column for that... ?
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: for i in svn ls ...
16:57<frosch123>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Template:Ttdp <- analogue template
16:58<Ammler>planetmaker: finger.openttd.org
16:58<@planetmaker>svn log http://.../tags
16:58<frosch123>planetmaker: yes
16:58<frosch123>to avoid duplication of the vars
16:58<@planetmaker>duplication? There's none?
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16:58<frosch123>there are two "8E B Y-Offset for train sprites "
16:59<@planetmaker>ah, oversight. I'd only keep it in the writable section
16:59<frosch123>wrt. columns you would need another column for the varact2 variable number anyway
16:59<@planetmaker>varact2 variable number? Not the same?
16:59<frosch123>so, maybe a column for varact2 stating the variable
17:00<frosch123>a column for act 6/7/9/d stating the variable
17:00<frosch123>and a column for actiond specifiying writeaccess and writeonly
17:00<frosch123>hmm, actuelly act 6/7/9 is the same as readaccess
17:01<frosch123>"var2 number, var679d number, readaccess, writeaccess, size, description" ?
17:01<@planetmaker>hm... so idea: read access / write access columns
17:02<@planetmaker>a whole read access number for one line's sake?
17:02<@planetmaker>sounds overdoing it
17:02<frosch123>bah, 85 and 88 are special
17:02<@planetmaker>and limiting needlessly the screen width
17:02<frosch123>they are 7&9 only :p
17:02<frosch123>but maybe that could fit into footnotes
17:03<frosch123>then write-only would suffice a footnote as well
17:05<@planetmaker>well... the 2 7&9 only and write-only could go to footnotes or comment, indeed
17:06<@planetmaker>but you mean 84 is special, not 85, right?
17:06<frosch123>85 is speical
17:06<frosch123>you can only use it with bittest operators
17:06<frosch123>as it is a 128 bit variable or so
17:07<frosch123>84 works in 6 and d, though quite useless :p
17:07<frosch123>though i would not document it as supported in 2
17:07<frosch123>as that makes even less sense :)
17:11<@planetmaker>hm... I still like the action column. But maybe I can indicate write access by D by using a bold D there
17:12<@planetmaker>or call the 'action' column 'access' column
17:12<@planetmaker>and explain its meaning in a footnote
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17:14<@planetmaker>I'm not convinced that action6 needs special mentioning. Each actionD allows also action6
17:17<@Terkhen>good night
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17:19<@planetmaker>g'night Terkhen
17:20<@planetmaker>wth actually are the 'tile refresh offset' variables?
17:24<frosch123>they control what screen area is redrawn when a tile is marked dirty
17:24<frosch123>resp. what tiles to draw if a certain screen area needs redrawing
17:24<frosch123>ottd does not implement them
17:25<frosch123>ttdp implements one of the two aspects, so too big sprites still glitch
17:25<@planetmaker>he ok, thanks :-)
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17:54<@planetmaker>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/GlobalVariables <-- hm... looks funky
17:57<frosch123>:p
17:59<frosch123>oh, the a3 and a4 descriptions wrt. "game load year" only apply to action 679d, not 2
17:59<frosch123>maybe merging is more tricky :p
18:03<@planetmaker>he, right
18:04<@planetmaker>but apropos: isn't the same then true for var 81?
18:04<@planetmaker>it should have the same restrictions as A3 and A4?
18:05<frosch123>yup, it says so, doesn't it?
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18:06<Rubidium>doesn't 81 only give a game load year for MP? But just the year in SP?
18:07<@planetmaker>yes
18:07<@planetmaker>oh, difference MP / SP? Hm
18:07<frosch123> if (_networking) { <- yup
18:07<@planetmaker>frosch123: it didn't before
18:07<@planetmaker>ok, I'll adjust that then, too
18:10<frosch123>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Footnotes <- we should use that
18:16<+michi_cc>We miss http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Cite/Cite.php then.
18:16<frosch123>orudge: ^^ :)
18:16<frosch123>i think these footnotes look nice
18:17<frosch123>they link each other, you can insert the notes anywhere (i.e. in every section, not only the bottom)
18:17<frosch123>and you can use the same footnote multiple times
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18:19<@planetmaker>yes, would make perfect sense
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18:32<@planetmaker>good night
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19:56<frosch123>planetmaker: tried a different layout for the table
19:57<frosch123>when adding spaces between the icons, it does not look that bad actually
19:58<frosch123>though i wonder whether we should add another template which combines both icons, so every version-specific paragraph always states ttdp and ottd support status
19:58<frosch123>maybe it could also optionally take revision arguments to create a formatting as for var23/24
20:00<frosch123>night
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22:13<makubi>Hi, I got a question. I am running openttd dedicated server on debian, but if I start it, it says that I have to install a graphic set.
22:14<makubi>Do I really have to install an graphics set? I do not want to use an UI on this server.
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22:38<fjb>You have to load it, even if you have no grphics display.
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---Logclosed Sat Jul 23 00:00:18 2011