| --- | Log | opened Fri Jul 22 00:00:15 2011 |
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| 03:20 | <@Terkhen> | good morning |
| 03:23 | <__ln__> | hyvää huomenta |
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| 03:38 | <dihedral> | morning |
| 03:41 | <@planetmaker> | Salvete |
| 03:41 | <V453000> | hyyy |
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| 05:37 | <andythenorth> | morgen |
| 05:39 | <@Alberth> | today |
| 05:42 | <KittenKoder> | Oh hi, I thought everyone was asleep right now. |
| 05:42 | <@planetmaker> | zzzZZZzzz |
| 05:42 | <KittenKoder> | :p |
| 05:43 | <KittenKoder> | Working on attempts with realistic track layouts. |
| 05:44 | * | Alberth looks for Belugas and V453000 |
| 05:44 | <@planetmaker> | :-D |
| 05:47 | <Noldo_> | "realistic" mentioned! Take Cover! |
| 05:47 | <@Alberth> | going to draw us a few zillion new sprites? |
| 05:47 | <KittenKoder> | LOL |
| 05:48 | <KittenKoder> | I want rounded tracks. >.> |
| 05:48 | <KittenKoder> | Gimme rounded corners! |
| 05:48 | <KittenKoder> | :p |
| 05:50 | <@Alberth> | I think your chances are much better if you start an openlomo project |
| 05:50 | <@Alberth> | or revive one of the previous attempts |
| 05:51 | <KittenKoder> | Me, I've been a big addict... I mean fan of TT for a looong time. >.< |
| 05:52 | <KittenKoder> | Just the people in the another IRC channel got tired of me talking about it. |
| 05:57 | <@planetmaker> | unless you want to draw and code rounded corners yourself... |
| 05:59 | <KittenKoder> | I was tempted to. |
| 05:59 | <@Alberth> | and not only the rounded tracks, but also all train NewGRFs and train base sets need additional sprites |
| 06:00 | <KittenKoder> | That's the problem./ |
| 06:00 | <@Alberth> | and immediately after that, you get better roads, with more road vehicle sprites |
| 06:01 | <@Alberth> | yes, and for that reason I don't see it happening in openttd |
| 06:01 | <KittenKoder> | ^_^ I know. |
| 06:01 | <@Alberth> | you are pretty much killing everything |
| 06:01 | <KittenKoder> | It's just a fun gripe. |
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| 06:04 | <@Alberth> | diagonal bridges and tunnels have a much better chance if you want to code something in that area |
| 06:04 | <@Alberth> | or diagonally going up a hill |
| 06:05 | <Ammler> | or diagonal stations |
| 06:06 | <fjb> | Moin |
| 06:06 | <Ammler> | en guete :-) |
| 06:06 | <@Alberth> | moin fjb and Ammler |
| 06:07 | <fjb> | Grüezi Ammler |
| 06:07 | <fjb> | Moin Alberth |
| 06:07 | <@planetmaker> | holla fjb |
| 06:07 | <fjb> | Moin planetmaker |
| 06:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | dobre dien |
| 06:15 | <MNIM> | augh german slang |
| 06:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | those are two of the three czech words i know... |
| 06:17 | <fjb> | Moin Eddi|zuHause |
| 06:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (the third one is 'pivo', of course) :p |
| 06:18 | <MNIM> | hahaha |
| 06:18 | <MNIM> | I used to be a pivo. :D |
| 06:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "pivo" means "beer" |
| 06:20 | <MNIM> | I know. It's also a scouts' rank in the netherlands. |
| 06:20 | <MNIM> | needless to say, pivo flows freely :P |
| 06:20 | <MNIM> | not free, one coin per bottle, but still pretty dirt-cheap |
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| 06:38 | <@Alberth> | Eddi|zuHause: I like the 'disallow tree chopping trick' , but it also makes track building virtually impossible |
| 06:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the values probably need tweaking anyway |
| 06:41 | <@Alberth> | another option would be to make towns not care about trees :p |
| 06:44 | <fjb> | But we love trees. |
| 06:45 | <@planetmaker> | especially in Stuttgart ;-) |
| 06:45 | <Eddi|zuHause> | those people are way beyond tree loving :p |
| 06:45 | <@planetmaker> | http://www.greenaction.de/kampagne/60000-alte-baeume-sollen-gefaellt-werden-httpwwwnabu-braunschweigdeflughafenhtm <-- though... that's less than 5km from here ;-) |
| 06:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's a forest! it's meant to be cut down! |
| 06:50 | * | Alberth thinks most people are against the airport expansion instead |
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| 06:51 | <@Alberth> | we always need to rescue such forests when they are in the way of something expanding |
| 06:52 | <fjb> | Who cares for CO2, lets kill all the trees. |
| 06:52 | <@Alberth> | fjb: CO2 with trees only works if you NEVER chop them |
| 06:54 | <fjb> | At least you should not burn the wood. |
| 06:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | trees handle only like 20% of the world's CO2 |
| 06:54 | <@Alberth> | and some trees in western europe are nothing compared to the deforestation happening in Brazil |
| 06:54 | <andythenorth> | trees are a pretty good carbon sink whilst they're growing |
| 06:54 | <andythenorth> | that they have problems doesn't make them useless |
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| 06:56 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 06:56 | <andythenorth> | I mostly hang around with people who want to solve hard problems well |
| 06:56 | <andythenorth> | which is fun |
| 06:56 | <andythenorth> | but has a massive downside |
| 06:56 | <andythenorth> | they tend to dismiss 10% and 20% solutions |
| 06:56 | <andythenorth> | instead of banking the improvement and moving on |
| 06:57 | <andythenorth> | which can lead to all solutions being rejected |
| 06:57 | <andythenorth> | leaving a 0% improvement |
| 06:58 | <@planetmaker> | http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/tree_build_limit.diff <-- well. That should link the tree building to the terraform limit |
| 06:58 | <@planetmaker> | needs testing, though |
| 07:01 | <@planetmaker> | and questionable whether sensible... linking it to clear or to terraform... or should it get its own setting or none at all (would be most simple) |
| 07:01 | <@planetmaker> | it's currently making use of the 'clear' limit |
| 07:05 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there's only one single photo of the ET41 on the whole internet :( |
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| 07:08 | <@planetmaker> | Eddi|zuHause: wrong. Already wiki has two |
| 07:08 | <@planetmaker> | three |
| 07:08 | <fjb> | I have one photo in my book. |
| 07:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: where? |
| 07:09 | <@planetmaker> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKP_class_ET41 and translations |
| 07:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: that's the wrong ET41 |
| 07:10 | <fjb> | Looks very different from the ET41 I'm thinking about. |
| 07:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=DRG-Baureihe_ET_41&action=edit&redlink=1 <-- it would be here, but the article does not exist |
| 07:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | http://www.elektrische-bahnen.de/history/mdland/vorortverkehr.htm |
| 07:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that is the photo i found |
| 07:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the lower one |
| 07:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | http://www.elektrische-bahnen.de/history/mdland/elT1201_k.jpg <-- or this small one |
| 07:13 | <fjb> | I have a picture in this book which shows the other side and a two color scheme (but the picture is black and white). |
| 07:13 | <@planetmaker> | lool :-) |
| 07:14 | <fjb> | But the colors of that time should be known. |
| 07:14 | <fjb> | My scanner is not working right now. |
| 07:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | colour schemes were pretty standardised at that time |
| 07:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | fjb: power and weight stats would be useful as well |
| 07:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i only got lengths and top speed |
| 07:15 | <fjb> | weight 66t |
| 07:16 | <fjb> | top speed 100km/h |
| 07:16 | <fjb> | 570kw |
| 07:16 | <fjb> | (Stundenleistung) |
| 07:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | TE and axle weight? |
| 07:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and weight of the middle and end wagons individually |
| 07:17 | <fjb> | Speed (St.lstg.) 81km/h |
| 07:17 | <fjb> | Sorry, no. |
| 07:18 | <fjb> | Hm, they say (1A)(A1) w2t |
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| 07:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yeah, that's what i noted here as well. |
| 07:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i'll just put 66/4 as axle weight |
| 07:19 | <fjb> | Length 22900mm |
| 07:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that's probably close enough |
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| 07:20 | <fjb> | Wheel diameter 1000mm |
| 07:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but while you're here: can you look over this table and see whether your book has any of the missing values? https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkXAVZqXTFQxdHM3UlpWM1hPZWpfeTlkdnZsMldjSkE&hl=de#gid=0 |
| 07:22 | <fjb> | The red parts? |
| 07:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yep |
| 07:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | can skip over the swiss and austrian ones for now |
| 07:23 | <fjb> | The wagons of the ET41 were like the 2 axle Einheitspersonenwagen. |
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| 07:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, but i don't really have any statistics about those either |
| 07:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the wagons in this list have currently some made up values |
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| 07:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | particularly hard to find are power values of the very early steam engines, and TE values for all kinds of railcars |
| 07:26 | <@Alberth> | wouldn't a museum have that information, or know where to find it? |
| 07:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | all current values in there are based on internet research, mainly wikipedia |
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| 07:30 | <fjb> | I fount a book a book with some BLS stats. |
| 07:31 | <fjb> | CE 6/6 to RE 4/4. |
| 07:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | those are JVassie's entries, i have not touched them. but feel free |
| 07:44 | <fjb> | Hm you habe BR50 and BR52. The BR52 is a simplified BR50. The simplification where individually made and some simplified engines got the number 50. Most stats are the same, beside the weight. BR52 weights up to 3t less. |
| 07:45 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, that's why the 52 is not in the "core" set |
| 07:46 | <fjb> | Ant it is unknown when the last 52s were decommissioned. Most probably endet as spare parts for the BR50. |
| 07:47 | <@planetmaker> | fjb: you should add your knowledge to that table, if possible :-) |
| 07:51 | <fjb> | You have most stats. How can I fill in what I find? |
| 07:51 | <fjb> | And if you have BR52 you also need BR43. :-) |
| 07:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | get a google account, and ask planetmaker to add you as an eligible person |
| 07:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | we have the 43 |
| 07:51 | <fjb> | I have a google account. |
| 07:52 | <fjb> | Oh, then I overlooked the BR43. |
| 07:53 | <@planetmaker> | Eddi|zuHause: you have exactly the same rights with that spreadsheet as I do ;-) |
| 07:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: yes. but... ;) |
| 07:54 | <@planetmaker> | fjb: but if you tell me your google account... I'll add you to editors |
| 07:54 | <@planetmaker> | tsk tsk @ Eddi|zuHause ;-) |
| 07:55 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i'm currently thinking about how to do the articulation... if i continue like i did now, i.e. middle and end wagon a different ID, we quickly run out of IDs <128 |
| 07:55 | <@planetmaker> | yes... another patch for our patch queue :-P |
| 07:56 | <Eddi|zuHause> | we might work around that with more dummy wagons, but then the callbacks might get more complicated |
| 07:56 | <@planetmaker> | yes... |
| 07:59 | <fjb> | I have the decommission date of BR44 at DB, but not at DR. How do I fill that in? |
| 08:01 | <Eddi|zuHause> | just put one number |
| 08:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | decommission date is mostly decorative, might be used as an indicator for the lifetime, but we may as well put some made up data for better gameplay |
| 08:04 | <@planetmaker> | hm... andy should probably again read http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000054.html |
| 08:16 | <fjb> | There were a lot of VT137 and SVT137... |
| 08:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, i mostly put the DB numbers there, like VT04 |
| 08:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | because (S)VT137 is useless as a categorisation |
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| 08:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it was like "we put all railcars with diesel engine and 4 axles in there" |
| 08:21 | <fjb> | Where did you find the TE? Or did you calculate it? |
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| 08:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | if it's a formula in the field, i calculated it from mass |
| 08:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | if it's a number, i found it somewhere |
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| 08:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | feel free to correct my rather crude formula ;) |
| 08:25 | <fjb> | I have the weight of the BR01.10, but not the TE. |
| 08:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | steam engines usually have "reibungsmasse" given, which i just multiplied with 0.35*9.81 |
| 08:26 | <fjb> | And I have the weight of the ET31 (of the full train), but the it is much longer than the powerd part in the table. |
| 08:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's 3 mostly identical wagons, so it'll probably be enough |
| 08:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the ET31 actually was unusual in that all three wagons were driven |
| 08:28 | <fjb> | Should I devide it by 3? |
| 08:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes |
| 08:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | most electric railcars of that time were one driven wagon a few middle wagons and a steering wagon |
| 08:29 | <fjb> | Yes |
| 08:31 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the number looks a little low |
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| 08:39 | <fjb> | ET31: 145.1t |
| 08:39 | <fjb> | Length: 68840mm |
| 08:40 | <blathijs> | /win 20 |
| 08:40 | <blathijs> | woops |
| 08:44 | <@planetmaker> | why only win 20 times? ;-) |
| 08:48 | <@Belugas> | hi hi |
| 08:49 | <@planetmaker> | hi ho Belugas |
| 08:50 | <@Belugas> | mister maker, i salute you |
| 08:51 | <@Belugas> | and i was thiking about you yesterday evening :) there were heat lightnings on the sky. I took something like 150 photos of them |
| 08:51 | <@Belugas> | Of course, been the first time, i did not had some good shots |
| 08:51 | <@Belugas> | plus, i took my 18-55 instead of the 70-300 |
| 08:51 | <@Belugas> | so wide angle |
| 08:51 | <@Belugas> | booo |
| 08:51 | <@Belugas> | silly me |
| 08:52 | <@planetmaker> | :-) Lightening is a bitch to take good shots of |
| 08:52 | <@planetmaker> | I usually fail |
| 08:55 | <@Alberth> | hi hi Belugas |
| 08:55 | <fjb> | Moin Belugas. |
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| 09:13 | <@Belugas> | indeed, planetmaker, indeed |
| 09:13 | <@Belugas> | hello sir Alberth :) you too fjb |
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| 09:20 | <@Belugas> | planetmaker: "usually fail". that means that sometimes, you do have some good results, right? |
| 09:20 | <@planetmaker> | well... long(er) ago I managed to make some images with a lightening. I'd not call them great though |
| 09:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/357/ <-- the "really long" track class scheme (15 types) |
| 09:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and of course it contains a typing error... |
| 09:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that's what you get for being case sensitive... |
| 09:24 | <@planetmaker> | ach... track classes without game fun effect are boring. They're micro-management |
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| 09:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the more track types you have, the higher you can do the spread between cheap and expensive ones |
| 09:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so a high speed track really can cost millions per tile ;) |
| 09:27 | <@planetmaker> | but what's the fun in that? |
| 09:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but this is meant as the "micromanagement" version |
| 09:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the "basic" version should not contain more than 3 normal, 3 electric and two 3rd rail |
| 09:28 | <@planetmaker> | that many? |
| 09:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | lower than that and you might not bother at all |
| 09:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | can do one 3rd rail, but then you have difficulty running mainline trains on them |
| 09:30 | <@planetmaker> | like 5 track + 1 3rd are enough imho |
| 09:30 | <@planetmaker> | but yes, ML might then not run on 3rd rail |
| 09:31 | <@planetmaker> | but a basic track scheme should not be too extensive but be really basic |
| 09:31 | <@planetmaker> | like an introduction to the axle weight scheme |
| 09:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "really basic" variant proposal: DBan, DBa3, DBBn, DBdn, DBde, DBDe |
| 09:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but that is almost too reduced imho |
| 09:34 | <@Belugas> | would it be fun? |
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| 09:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Belugas: if it is too reduced it would be less fun, because you get redundant engines |
| 09:35 | <@Belugas> | meeehh... that is what I call removing my argument... |
| 09:36 | <@planetmaker> | DBan, DBBn, DBBe, DBCe, DBDe, 3rdR |
| 09:36 | <@planetmaker> | where 3rdR probably DBc3 |
| 09:36 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: no heavy unelectrified?! |
| 09:36 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that removes like 80% of the non-electric engines |
| 09:37 | <@planetmaker> | hm... how does it 'remove' them? |
| 09:40 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: add DBCn to that list, and "cheat" some of the DB engines to lower track class (D->C) |
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| 09:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: if at all, remove DBBe from that list, as almost all electrified lines were eligible for 20t, except some of the badensian ones (Wehratalbahn) |
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| 09:49 | <@planetmaker> | Well... strictly necessary are only DBAn, DBCn, DBCe, DBDe - and maybe DBdn |
| 09:50 | <@planetmaker> | though it doesn't make sense to have the C class faster than the D class |
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| 09:58 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000054.html <-- I'd like to recommend you to read that article (again) ;-) |
| 09:58 | <@planetmaker> | ;-) |
| 09:58 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: I'm exactly working on that problem now, in a whole other context |
| 09:58 | <@planetmaker> | :-) |
| 09:59 | <andythenorth> | is it related to newgrf legacy support in your view? |
| 10:03 | <@planetmaker> | that was what I thought of, yes |
| 10:04 | <andythenorth> | I suspect that all of these newgrf discussions jump to black and white |
| 10:04 | <andythenorth> | when maybe the situation is more subtle |
| 10:04 | <andythenorth> | but the subtle parts are hard because there are so many edge cases |
| 10:05 | <@planetmaker> | yes |
| 10:05 | <@planetmaker> | but we're not in a rush either and we can work out the subtle things and parts |
| 10:06 | <@planetmaker> | it needs not big jump all at once |
| 10:06 | <@planetmaker> | A big jump would also always haunt us |
| 10:06 | <@planetmaker> | And be quite bad for the community |
| 10:07 | <@planetmaker> | as it would be at least divided then ;-) |
| 10:07 | <andythenorth> | ha |
| 10:07 | <andythenorth> | but we could plan for a big jump in future |
| 10:08 | <andythenorth> | really the big jump is probably made up of smaller behaviours |
| 10:08 | <@planetmaker> | as usual ;-) |
| 10:08 | <andythenorth> | frosch already wrote the grftopia spec |
| 10:09 | <andythenorth> | but that is really a *big* project :O |
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| 10:11 | <@planetmaker> | well, it is. There's generally A LOT which can be done |
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| 10:11 | <@planetmaker> | it 'just' needs doing |
| 10:14 | <Ammler> | Eddi|zuHause: you should add extension to your patches |
| 10:14 | <Ammler> | .diff |
| 10:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Ammler: how do i rename them? |
| 10:14 | <Ammler> | hg qrename |
| 10:15 | <Ammler> | it is better for the syntax highlighter |
| 10:16 | <Ammler> | and afaik also for downloading... |
| 10:24 | * | planetmaker must resist to write a flame reply: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=958995#p958995 |
| 10:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: i added 4 possible track schemes to the tracking table |
| 10:25 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: don't reply :) |
| 10:25 | <andythenorth> | it's trivial to break the game by switching grfs |
| 10:25 | <andythenorth> | he just got lucky :P |
| 10:26 | <@planetmaker> | well. He writes himself "I only managed twice..". Multiply that by the amount of users, with a 1% reporting it and divide that by time and developer ;-) |
| 10:26 | <andythenorth> | microsoft probably don't take freedom from users on a whim either |
| 10:27 | <andythenorth> | about 5 years ago I started noticing how many really insanely good programmers had spent time at ms |
| 10:27 | <andythenorth> | and how much respect people who know have for ms |
| 10:27 | <andythenorth> | not liking ms products or brand is one thing |
| 10:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: you mean like it took them 10 years to introduce a feature that blocks non-administrators from installing random software? |
| 10:28 | <@planetmaker> | download count is ~100000 / year or so for major versions |
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| 10:29 | <@planetmaker> | hm... 1.0.5 is funny. 250000 downloads. Way more than 1.0.0 or 1.1.1 |
| 10:29 | <andythenorth> | probably got linked somewhere |
| 10:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: the last .x is available for much longer time |
| 10:30 | <andythenorth> | and that |
| 10:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: 6 months instead of 2 |
| 10:30 | <@planetmaker> | probably that's it indeed |
| 10:31 | <@planetmaker> | though... this week 1.0.0: 1000; 1.0.5: 160; 1.1.0: 60; 1.1.1: 14180. |
| 10:32 | <@planetmaker> | Why is 1.0.0 relatively high? Probably because of its special number |
| 10:32 | <__ln__> | http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/22/blast-rips-through-norways-capital-injuries-reported/ |
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| 10:33 | <__ln__> | http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/norge/1.7722919 |
| 10:33 | <@planetmaker> | no-one downloaded nforenum this week |
| 10:33 | * | planetmaker wonders whether NML should get a similar download link like grfcodec / nforenum |
| 10:35 | <@Alberth> | so they also get 0 downloads :p |
| 10:35 | <@planetmaker> | :-) |
| 10:35 | <@planetmaker> | Nah, I'm actually meanwhile quite surprised how many people start to pickup NML |
| 10:35 | <@planetmaker> | it starts to become established |
| 10:36 | <@planetmaker> | so, seems to be a useful project to more than just three newgrf authors ;-) |
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| 10:39 | <andythenorth> | so |
| 10:39 | <andythenorth> | over time |
| 10:39 | <@Alberth> | You expect that new authors would prefer long unreadable sequences of hex numbers rather than something with words? |
| 10:39 | <andythenorth> | more and more people will post the newgrf developer tools workaround :) |
| 10:40 | <Eddi|zuHause> | more moderators will edit that out of their posts :p |
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| 10:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there they go... |
| 10:42 | <@Alberth> | openttdcoop is not so stable :p |
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| 10:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Ammler: renaming done (i think) |
| 10:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Ammler: so what's the next step in getting the CF to build it? bug Rubidium? |
| 10:50 | <Rubidium> | Eddi|zuHause: fixing the CF |
| 10:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that sounds fun :p |
| 10:52 | <Rubidium> | buildbot doesn't seem to like multiple 'pollers' for building from different repositories, which is more or less where I got stuck |
| 10:53 | <Ammler> | http://hg.openttdcoop.org/openttd-vehiclevars.mq <-- in any case, this would be the repo for CF |
| 10:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | http://www.gsmhelpdesk.nl/read.php?id=6221&ch=1 <- "net neutrality" in dutch: "we can't block skype anymore, so we limit bandwidth to 0.1Mbps" |
| 10:56 | <Rubidium> | Eddi|zuHause: that's more like: well, these phone users used to sponsor internet with calling, but now they don't call anymore so the income from the internet must equal the costs, instead of the income for internet being vastly smaller than the costs |
| 10:57 | <Rubidium> | and basic demand and supply mechanism correcting for a shift in demand |
| 10:59 | <MNIM> | simple solution: do not build phones with net access. problem solved >.< |
| 11:01 | <Eddi|zuHause> | MNIM: that's like the GDR producing colour TVs without PAL support |
| 11:01 | <MNIM> | what? |
| 11:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | colour TV had originally 3 different standards: german PAL, french SECAM and american NTSC |
| 11:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the russians licensed the french SECAM system, and forced it upon all eastern european countries |
| 11:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | including east germany, which would rather have used the (better) PAL system |
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| 11:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | now TV sets can easily support both SECAM and PAL, since they are not hugely different, but since only west german TV was broadcast in PAL, and watching west german TV was generally frowned upon (but not actually forbidden) |
| 11:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so some braindead officials tried to push colour TVs without PAL support into the market |
| 11:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but nobody actually bought them :p |
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| 11:05 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (no PAL support means west german TV can only be watched in black&white) |
| 11:06 | <@planetmaker> | or vice versa ;-) |
| 11:06 | <@planetmaker> | As kid I always wondered why the DDR-TV was always only b&w |
| 11:06 | <MNIM> | lol |
| 11:07 | <MNIM> | well, you're having a chicken&egg problem there |
| 11:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | funnily enough, even though east german TV was broadcast in SECAM, it was actually internally processed as PAL and only converted at the last step |
| 11:07 | <MNIM> | well that helps, lol |
| 11:07 | <MNIM> | long live the plan economy or something |
| 11:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | supposedly PAL was better for cutting etc. |
| 11:08 | <MNIM> | either way, a mobile phone is not a pc, a palmtop, a tablet pc, a netbook or a laptop. it needs no internet. |
| 11:08 | <MNIM> | I dunno, I prefer knives to cut something |
| 11:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | MNIM: what if i want to go online with my laptop through my phone? |
| 11:09 | <MNIM> | ...that's like sending an email by posting it to a third world country, letting them open it up and sand an email to you saying you've got an email with the scanned, or even worse, typed over contents |
| 11:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: but i expect there was no real market for watching east german TV in west germany :p |
| 11:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | MNIM: but the actual point is: why should i phone with my phone, when i can skype with my phone, which is way cheaper? |
| 11:10 | <@planetmaker> | I expect not. Maybe for "Sandmännchen" |
| 11:10 | <MNIM> | because you don't have internet ;) |
| 11:11 | <MNIM> | I don't have, anyway |
| 11:11 | <MNIM> | if I did though, I can't say I wouldn't (i'm a cheap-ass) |
| 11:11 | <MNIM> | but that isn't my fault for misusing an internet connection, that's the company's fault for funding internet with it's phone revenue. |
| 11:12 | <fjb> | Polizeiruf 110 |
| 11:12 | <Rubidium> | Eddi|zuHause: used to be cheaper because voice paid for data |
| 11:12 | <MNIM> | EG poor market strategy, suck it, you corporate bitches! |
| 11:13 | <MNIM> | we'll have another such dilemma soon, though |
| 11:14 | <MNIM> | when it starts to occur to people that watching tv on your pc is far cheaper than having a separate tv subscription |
| 11:15 | <MNIM> | augh, which *moron* at loki decided that the enter key is a valid option for scrolling through a text file? |
| 11:15 | * | fjb didn't switch his tv on for three month. |
| 11:16 | <MNIM> | I used to for movies |
| 11:16 | <Rubidium> | fjb: what a waste of electricity |
| 11:16 | <MNIM> | but every time I watch a movie on a commercial channel I remember again why I like to torrent shit |
| 11:16 | <fjb> | My tv really wastes electricity. |
| 11:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | politicians are stupid... they put up an internet vote how to name a tunnel, and then get completely crazy when the outcome turns to be "Bud Spencer Tunnel" |
| 11:21 | <MNIM> | why would that be an outrage? |
| 11:21 | <MNIM> | also lol hacked |
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| 11:31 | <@planetmaker> | http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=959032#p959032 <-- Eddi|zuHause, do you think that's an appropriate reply? |
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| 11:42 | <MNIM> | oh that felt so good |
| 11:42 | <MNIM> | just ripping apart some bots in ut |
| 11:42 | <MNIM> | pointless death and destruction! |
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| 12:00 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: what's wrong with it? |
| 12:01 | <@planetmaker> | not helpful and needlessly sarcastic |
| 12:01 | <@planetmaker> | i.e. IMHO a clear case of "better not answered at all" |
| 12:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: that's the closest to "i certainly won't explain game exploits to you" |
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| 12:02 | <@planetmaker> | it's an honest question which deserves a better answer. Or none |
| 12:03 | <@planetmaker> | and if "you won't explain it" then simply don't. But don't spill acid |
| 12:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i don't see the problem, though |
| 12:04 | <@planetmaker> | nor do I see that with a proper explanation |
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| 12:24 | <@Alberth> | one step closer to rotated airports! |
| 12:25 | <@planetmaker> | Alberth: yes... in principle it's all possible already. Though the easy path via a rotation-variable for the tiles themselves is not yet there |
| 12:25 | <@planetmaker> | thus one has to go currently via different airport tiles in the different layouts |
| 12:26 | <@planetmaker> | something which holds me back a bit |
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| 12:43 | <@planetmaker> | http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/trackspeed.png <-- meh @ trackspeed |
| 12:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yeah, i totally feel with you :) |
| 12:45 | <@planetmaker> | but the max speed seems to be inserted there automatically |
| 12:46 | <MNIM> | nutracks does that already |
| 12:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | we could also do a version without max speed |
| 12:46 | <@planetmaker> | OpenTTD does that, MNIM |
| 12:47 | <@planetmaker> | Eddi|zuHause: yes, possibly. It could simply be set via parameter |
| 12:47 | <@planetmaker> | but... not now :-) |
| 12:47 | <@planetmaker> | First I want to get it roughly into a form that track types can be added somewhat easily |
| 12:51 | <@planetmaker> | @logs |
| 12:51 | <@DorpsGek> | planetmaker: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd |
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| 13:05 | <frosch123> | [18:25] <planetmaker> thus one has to go currently via different airport tiles in the different layouts <- why? |
| 13:05 | <@planetmaker> | frosch123: I can't query the airport's rotation from tile level |
| 13:06 | <@planetmaker> | err_not_implemented ;-) |
| 13:06 | <frosch123> | the rotation i available in var40 of the airport |
| 13:06 | <@planetmaker> | yes. But no parent scope |
| 13:06 | <@planetmaker> | for tiles |
| 13:07 | <frosch123> | hmm, ok |
| 13:07 | * | frosch123 wonders what was the reason for that |
| 13:07 | <@planetmaker> | that's not done yet as towns for example would be similarily valid |
| 13:08 | <@planetmaker> | stations have no station tiles |
| 13:08 | <@planetmaker> | thus something has to be made up or decided for airports |
| 13:08 | <frosch123> | so we need multiple related objects |
| 13:08 | <@planetmaker> | like two parent scopes. yes |
| 13:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | can't you query the parent scope's parent scope? |
| 13:09 | <frosch123> | no :p |
| 13:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i.e. airport tile -> airport -> town |
| 13:09 | <@planetmaker> | currently not. And there's no feature where there's a parent's parent scope |
| 13:10 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: industry tiles |
| 13:10 | * | planetmaker suggests grandparent scope. Oh, right :-) |
| 13:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | oma! |
| 13:10 | <frosch123> | anyway, i remember there were at least two useful alternative scopes for vehicles |
| 13:11 | <@planetmaker> | previous and head? |
| 13:11 | <frosch123> | first articulated part and engine-providing-the-engineoverride |
| 13:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | speaking of which, can the parameter for a 60+var be a value calculated with a varaction2? |
| 13:12 | <frosch123> | Eddi|zuHause: variable 7b |
| 13:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | because i kinda need the parameter to be "-(position in vehid chain)" |
| 13:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | or similar |
| 13:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | might be an obiwan in there |
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| 13:38 | <@planetmaker> | hm, so it seems the GUI sprites for railtypes are unessential... luckily actually |
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| 13:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i'd like the gui sprites to not be replaced actually |
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| 13:44 | <@planetmaker> | So do I |
| 13:45 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: translators * r22681 /trunk/src/lang/greek.txt: |
| 13:45 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: |
| 13:45 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: greek - 2 changes by fumantsu |
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| 14:12 | <__ln__> | http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,776061,00.html |
| 14:15 | <frosch123> | why is a finish guy linking to news about norway written in german? |
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| 14:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | maybe he didn't find a french news |
| 14:16 | <@planetmaker> | haha :-) |
| 14:16 | <@planetmaker> | I guess that's called 'global village' |
| 14:17 | <frosch123> | (note that reading norwegian news about norway would be fine, just like reading foreign news about your home country) |
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| 14:20 | <__ln__> | i chose a widely spoken language because i assumed many of us can't read norwegian |
| 14:21 | <@planetmaker> | ach so :-) |
| 14:21 | * | planetmaker spontaneously would assume another language being more widely understood among the participants of this channel |
| 14:21 | <@planetmaker> | ;-) |
| 14:23 | * | __ln__ looks for news articles in dutch |
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| 14:26 | <andythenorth> | efenink |
| 14:27 | <@planetmaker> | h'andy ;-) |
| 14:27 | <Chris_Booth> | nice and handy XD |
| 14:27 | <@planetmaker> | Hirundo: thanks for spec update wrt the random bits in CB 0x3B |
| 14:28 | <@planetmaker> | I somewhat was distracted and forgot ;-) |
| 14:28 | <@Alberth> | efenink andy |
| 14:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | wait... i can make a game desync based on transparency settings? (var 1B) |
| 14:45 | <@Terkhen> | depends on how (if) openttd implements it |
| 14:46 | <frosch123> | ottd intentionally does not implement that variable :) |
| 14:46 | <Rubidium> | I guess nobody used it yet and/or it never came up in the reviews of settings that affect MP stability |
| 14:46 | <frosch123> | oh crap, it does |
| 14:47 | <frosch123> | we only disabled the "current railtype of the gui" |
| 14:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it should probably be returning a fixed value in multiplayer |
| 14:49 | <@Terkhen> | heh :P |
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| 14:54 | <@planetmaker> | which var 0x1B? |
| 14:54 | <frosch123> | newgrf.cpp:5171 |
| 14:56 | <@planetmaker> | hm, interesting |
| 14:56 | <@planetmaker> | indeed we should just generally disable it, I think |
| 14:56 | <frosch123> | just adding comments :) |
| 14:56 | <@planetmaker> | :-) |
| 14:58 | <@planetmaker> | interestingly it does / did only implement 6 bits - which transparency now has 7 meanwhile |
| 14:58 | <@planetmaker> | actually... 9 |
| 14:59 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: frosch * r22682 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: [NewGRF] Disallow accessing variable 1B due to desync reasons. |
| 14:59 | <@planetmaker> | \o/ |
| 14:59 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: the wiki only documents the original 6 |
| 14:59 | <frosch123> | though ttdp actually has more as well |
| 15:07 | <@planetmaker> | hm... shouldn't more of those global variables be documented in the NewGRF wiki? |
| 15:08 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: some are documented on varact2 page, some on action7 page, and some on actiond page |
| 15:08 | <frosch123> | depending on where they are useful |
| 15:08 | <frosch123> | there is a item in to TODO list of the specs wiki to explain these interactions |
| 15:09 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 15:09 | <andythenorth> | maybe I should work on FIRS |
| 15:09 | <frosch123> | btw. i think we need some small icons indicating ottd support "no", "0.6", "0.7", "1.0", "1.1" and ttdp support "2.0", "2.5", "2.6" |
| 15:10 | <frosch123> | + "no" |
| 15:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: there's still some dependency stuff not right. like i just changed a pnml file in src/templates, but it didn't rebuild |
| 15:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | actually, that might be my fault. |
| 15:12 | <@planetmaker> | nice idea, frosch123. |
| 15:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | frosch123: i think Uwe had such icons in his signal guide |
| 15:13 | <@planetmaker> | yes, I thought of some like those |
| 15:14 | <frosch123> | Eddi|zuHause: yes, something like that, but with the version |
| 15:14 | <frosch123> | and also some explicit "no support" signs |
| 15:14 | <@planetmaker> | the global vars should move away from action7 |
| 15:15 | <@planetmaker> | separate page? |
| 15:15 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: not sure |
| 15:15 | <@planetmaker> | it's quite cluttered now... |
| 15:15 | <frosch123> | the actiond ones are very specific |
| 15:15 | <frosch123> | iirc there are even writeonly ones |
| 15:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: disregard my last complaint, it was me not actually including the file where it should be |
| 15:16 | <@planetmaker> | :-) |
| 15:16 | <@planetmaker> | frosch123: yes... the write-able ones are definitely specifc. Write-only... interesting... which? |
| 15:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i managed to get completely invisible vehicles now! :) |
| 15:17 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: however, maybe it would work if the table had columns for availability in action 2, 6, 7, 9 and D |
| 15:17 | <@planetmaker> | the 32px wagon width in depots? |
| 15:17 | <@planetmaker> | that's an idea |
| 15:18 | <@planetmaker> | Eddi|zuHause: old shoe in new boxes? ;-) |
| 15:18 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: 9f (ttdp only) |
| 15:18 | <frosch123> | "Reading this variable isn't reliable, so you must only write to it." |
| 15:18 | <@planetmaker> | :-) |
| 15:19 | <TWerkhoven> | lol |
| 15:19 | <@planetmaker> | I'll first create a summary page, I guess. Then one can merge that into the single pages where it might be referenced |
| 15:21 | <frosch123> | hmm is orudge around already? |
| 15:21 | <frosch123> | if we had the parser extention, we could filter the list when including it in some other page |
| 15:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | anybody got an NML syntax highlighting for Kate? |
| 15:22 | <@planetmaker> | Eddi|zuHause: Terkhen had not for kate but something else a list of syntax words... somewhere in the general devzone files |
| 15:22 | <@planetmaker> | or maybe in NML files section |
| 15:23 | <@orudge> | frosch123: hello |
| 15:23 | <frosch123> | hello orudge :) we came up with some extension requirements for the wiki in the past weeks |
| 15:23 | <@orudge> | OK |
| 15:23 | <@orudge> | let me know and I'll see what I can do :) |
| 15:24 | <frosch123> | http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SpecialInterwiki <- for linking between ottd, tt and specs wiki |
| 15:24 | <frosch123> | http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:DumpHTML <- for creating offline specs |
| 15:25 | <frosch123> | http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ParserFunctions <- for conditionally doing stuff in templates |
| 15:25 | <@planetmaker> | ah, the htmldump wouldn't be bad either |
| 15:25 | <@Terkhen> | I never uploaded it :P |
| 15:25 | <frosch123> | (extracted those from the logs) |
| 15:26 | <@orudge> | aww, none of them have Debian packages, will have to install them the old fashioned way :) |
| 15:26 | * | Terkhen has been doing non-openttd stuff that he had been neglecting |
| 15:26 | <frosch123> | dumphtml needs a custom cron job anyway afaik |
| 15:27 | <@orudge> | hmm, the interwiki one should be handy for language stuff, too, which I need to do at some point (on the main wiki) |
| 15:30 | <+michi_cc> | Maybe also http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:DynamicPageList_(Wikimedia) (could be used to autogenerate the callback overview for example). |
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| 15:40 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i had a request for the wiki: in the TOC for the callbacks, omit the numbers before the heading |
| 15:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Unbenannt,%201.%20Jan%202032.png <-- how do i fix this offset? it was better, before i disabled the default vehicles (which had some dualheaded vehicles) |
| 15:43 | <@planetmaker> | yes, that'd be nice. But it's an autogenerated TOC... so not that easy |
| 15:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: that only means that the generator needs to be tweaked ;) |
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| 15:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | not that it is more difficult ;) |
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| 15:50 | <@orudge> | frosch123: OK, they should be enabled. Interwiki stuff may require sysop permissions; I've not actually looked into it in detail right now. |
| 15:51 | <frosch123> | all of them? :o |
| 15:51 | <@orudge> | frosch123: and dumphtml is simply a PHP script rather than an extension as such |
| 15:51 | <frosch123> | wow, great :) |
| 15:51 | <@orudge> | all of them = Interwiki, DumpHTML, ParserFunctions, DynamicPageList |
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| 15:54 | <@orudge> | hmm, DumpHTML may require some hacking because I don't think it expects us to have multiple wikis served from a single installation |
| 15:55 | <@orudge> | anyway, let me know if there are any issues with those extensions |
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| 15:58 | <frosch123> | he, interwiki links has a ton of defaults configured :s |
| 15:59 | <@orudge> | oh? |
| 15:59 | <frosch123> | http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Special:Interwiki |
| 15:59 | <frosch123> | i wonder whether we should delete most of them, or just not bother :) |
| 15:59 | <@orudge> | hm, so it does |
| 16:00 | <@orudge> | I would probably suggest removing them, to be honest |
| 16:01 | * | orudge pokes around |
| 16:03 | <@orudge> | well, I've emptied the interwiki tables |
| 16:04 | <@orudge> | feel free to add any new ones :) |
| 16:14 | <frosch123> | :) |
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| 16:15 | <lpj> | hi |
| 16:16 | <lpj> | came here to ask if anybody have problem open openttd after the Mac update to OS Lion? |
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| 16:17 | * | andythenorth won't be upgrading to that |
| 16:17 | <andythenorth> | for n reasons |
| 16:17 | <@planetmaker> | dunno,... my god is he impatient |
| 16:18 | <@orudge> | OpenTTD seemed to work OK on Lion when I tested it |
| 16:18 | * | andythenorth applies cba |
| 16:18 | <@planetmaker> | I'll only test it next week... my new HDD only arrives on Monday :-P |
| 16:18 | <@planetmaker> | And I'll not jeopardize this system ;-) |
| 16:18 | <andythenorth> | no PowerPC apps == no photoshop |
| 16:18 | <@orudge> | well, I had one of the Lion pre-releases installed for testing purposes, and indeed now have Lion final installed on my external disk for testing purposes |
| 16:18 | <andythenorth> | no photoshop == no pixels |
| 16:19 | <andythenorth> | also my excel won't work anymore |
| 16:19 | <@orudge> | the new SDK/compiler/XCode breaks lots of stuff, though, that Wine relies on |
| 16:19 | <andythenorth> | so screw Lion :P |
| 16:19 | <@orudge> | so won't be upgrading on my main system for a while yet |
| 16:19 | <@planetmaker> | he |
| 16:19 | <@orudge> | andythenorth: I guess you have relatively old Excel... 2004? |
| 16:19 | <andythenorth> | yup |
| 16:19 | <@planetmaker> | I guess that'll be how I handle it too: keep lion on the external HDD |
| 16:19 | <andythenorth> | I used to be early upgrader |
| 16:19 | <@planetmaker> | at least for some time |
| 16:19 | <andythenorth> | now I don't care |
| 16:21 | <@planetmaker> | frosch123: how is action6 important for those variables? |
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| 16:27 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: action6 works with the action79d variables as well |
| 16:27 | <frosch123> | though i am not sure about the usefulness :) |
| 16:27 | <frosch123> | http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Template:Ottd <- subjective comments? |
| 16:28 | <@orudge> | oh, hmm |
| 16:28 | <@orudge> | wrong channel, whoops |
| 16:29 | <andythenorth> | how do I svn revert? |
| 16:29 | <frosch123> | svn revert list-of-files |
| 16:29 | <andythenorth> | so there's no recursive or -a option? |
| 16:29 | <frosch123> | or svn revert -r list-of-dirs |
| 16:29 | <frosch123> | svn revert -R . |
| 16:30 | <andythenorth> | yay |
| 16:30 | <andythenorth> | it's case sensitive :P |
| 16:30 | <andythenorth> | I did google for that first, but found bad advice |
| 16:31 | <frosch123> | hmm, what prefix should we use for links to the ottd wiki? |
| 16:31 | <@planetmaker> | frosch123: the no I'd indicate by a red x over the icon |
| 16:31 | <@planetmaker> | it's also smaller |
| 16:31 | <@planetmaker> | which it shouldn't be |
| 16:31 | <frosch123> | i just used "ottd" for the compatibility template |
| 16:32 | <frosch123> | hmm, let's try the parser extension |
| 16:32 | <@planetmaker> | hm, so it's actually the text within that image? |
| 16:32 | <frosch123> | what? |
| 16:32 | <@planetmaker> | sorry, I only meant the icon, not the template use |
| 16:33 | <@planetmaker> | the template looks very fine. Just the 'no support icon' I'd graphically change a bit :-) |
| 16:39 | <frosch123> | hmm, how to draw a cross with gimp? |
| 16:39 | <frosch123> | some things are easier with paint :p |
| 16:40 | <frosch123> | let's use the text tool and write ✕ :p |
| 16:40 | <@planetmaker> | :-) |
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| 16:46 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: maybe put the readonly/writeonly in a speical action d column? |
| 16:50 | <@planetmaker> | hm, I where do I find the svn revs of the single tags? |
| 16:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | svn log svn.openttd.org/tags/blah --limit 1 |
| 16:52 | <frosch123> | http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Template:Ottd <- updated |
| 16:52 | <frosch123> | orudge: parser extension works :) |
| 16:53 | <@orudge> | frosch123: excellent |
| 16:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: svn info svn://svn.openttd.org/tags/1.1.0 |
| 16:55 | <@planetmaker> | thx, Eddi|zuHause. I actually needed all :-) |
| 16:55 | <@planetmaker> | but it helped |
| 16:56 | <@planetmaker> | frosch123: you mean yet another column for that... ? |
| 16:57 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: for i in svn ls ... |
| 16:57 | <frosch123> | http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Template:Ttdp <- analogue template |
| 16:58 | <Ammler> | planetmaker: finger.openttd.org |
| 16:58 | <@planetmaker> | svn log http://.../tags |
| 16:58 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: yes |
| 16:58 | <frosch123> | to avoid duplication of the vars |
| 16:58 | <@planetmaker> | duplication? There's none? |
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| 16:58 | <frosch123> | there are two "8E B Y-Offset for train sprites " |
| 16:59 | <@planetmaker> | ah, oversight. I'd only keep it in the writable section |
| 16:59 | <frosch123> | wrt. columns you would need another column for the varact2 variable number anyway |
| 16:59 | <@planetmaker> | varact2 variable number? Not the same? |
| 16:59 | <frosch123> | so, maybe a column for varact2 stating the variable |
| 17:00 | <frosch123> | a column for act 6/7/9/d stating the variable |
| 17:00 | <frosch123> | and a column for actiond specifiying writeaccess and writeonly |
| 17:00 | <frosch123> | hmm, actuelly act 6/7/9 is the same as readaccess |
| 17:01 | <frosch123> | "var2 number, var679d number, readaccess, writeaccess, size, description" ? |
| 17:01 | <@planetmaker> | hm... so idea: read access / write access columns |
| 17:02 | <@planetmaker> | a whole read access number for one line's sake? |
| 17:02 | <@planetmaker> | sounds overdoing it |
| 17:02 | <frosch123> | bah, 85 and 88 are special |
| 17:02 | <@planetmaker> | and limiting needlessly the screen width |
| 17:02 | <frosch123> | they are 7&9 only :p |
| 17:02 | <frosch123> | but maybe that could fit into footnotes |
| 17:03 | <frosch123> | then write-only would suffice a footnote as well |
| 17:05 | <@planetmaker> | well... the 2 7&9 only and write-only could go to footnotes or comment, indeed |
| 17:06 | <@planetmaker> | but you mean 84 is special, not 85, right? |
| 17:06 | <frosch123> | 85 is speical |
| 17:06 | <frosch123> | you can only use it with bittest operators |
| 17:06 | <frosch123> | as it is a 128 bit variable or so |
| 17:07 | <frosch123> | 84 works in 6 and d, though quite useless :p |
| 17:07 | <frosch123> | though i would not document it as supported in 2 |
| 17:07 | <frosch123> | as that makes even less sense :) |
| 17:11 | <@planetmaker> | hm... I still like the action column. But maybe I can indicate write access by D by using a bold D there |
| 17:12 | <@planetmaker> | or call the 'action' column 'access' column |
| 17:12 | <@planetmaker> | and explain its meaning in a footnote |
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| 17:14 | <@planetmaker> | I'm not convinced that action6 needs special mentioning. Each actionD allows also action6 |
| 17:17 | <@Terkhen> | good night |
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| 17:19 | <@planetmaker> | g'night Terkhen |
| 17:20 | <@planetmaker> | wth actually are the 'tile refresh offset' variables? |
| 17:24 | <frosch123> | they control what screen area is redrawn when a tile is marked dirty |
| 17:24 | <frosch123> | resp. what tiles to draw if a certain screen area needs redrawing |
| 17:24 | <frosch123> | ottd does not implement them |
| 17:25 | <frosch123> | ttdp implements one of the two aspects, so too big sprites still glitch |
| 17:25 | <@planetmaker> | he ok, thanks :-) |
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| 17:54 | <@planetmaker> | http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/GlobalVariables <-- hm... looks funky |
| 17:57 | <frosch123> | :p |
| 17:59 | <frosch123> | oh, the a3 and a4 descriptions wrt. "game load year" only apply to action 679d, not 2 |
| 17:59 | <frosch123> | maybe merging is more tricky :p |
| 18:03 | <@planetmaker> | he, right |
| 18:04 | <@planetmaker> | but apropos: isn't the same then true for var 81? |
| 18:04 | <@planetmaker> | it should have the same restrictions as A3 and A4? |
| 18:05 | <frosch123> | yup, it says so, doesn't it? |
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| 18:06 | <Rubidium> | doesn't 81 only give a game load year for MP? But just the year in SP? |
| 18:07 | <@planetmaker> | yes |
| 18:07 | <@planetmaker> | oh, difference MP / SP? Hm |
| 18:07 | <frosch123> | if (_networking) { <- yup |
| 18:07 | <@planetmaker> | frosch123: it didn't before |
| 18:07 | <@planetmaker> | ok, I'll adjust that then, too |
| 18:10 | <frosch123> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Footnotes <- we should use that |
| 18:16 | <+michi_cc> | We miss http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Cite/Cite.php then. |
| 18:16 | <frosch123> | orudge: ^^ :) |
| 18:16 | <frosch123> | i think these footnotes look nice |
| 18:17 | <frosch123> | they link each other, you can insert the notes anywhere (i.e. in every section, not only the bottom) |
| 18:17 | <frosch123> | and you can use the same footnote multiple times |
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| 18:19 | <@planetmaker> | yes, would make perfect sense |
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| 18:32 | <@planetmaker> | good night |
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| 19:56 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: tried a different layout for the table |
| 19:57 | <frosch123> | when adding spaces between the icons, it does not look that bad actually |
| 19:58 | <frosch123> | though i wonder whether we should add another template which combines both icons, so every version-specific paragraph always states ttdp and ottd support status |
| 19:58 | <frosch123> | maybe it could also optionally take revision arguments to create a formatting as for var23/24 |
| 20:00 | <frosch123> | night |
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| 22:13 | <makubi> | Hi, I got a question. I am running openttd dedicated server on debian, but if I start it, it says that I have to install a graphic set. |
| 22:14 | <makubi> | Do I really have to install an graphics set? I do not want to use an UI on this server. |
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| 22:38 | <fjb> | You have to load it, even if you have no grphics display. |
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| --- | Log | closed Sat Jul 23 00:00:18 2011 |
