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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-07-23

---Logopened Sat Jul 23 00:00:18 2011
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01:31<andythenorth>have openttd devs taken away any more of my freedoms since last night?
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01:57<Rubidium>andythenorth: ofcourse
01:58<@peter1138>oh dear
01:58<@peter1138>i read that as... openttd daves :S
01:59<andythenorth>Rubidium: I don't wan't to be treated as cattle, I want to be free
01:59<andythenorth>don't tell me how to spell
01:59<andythenorth>my spelling is free
02:00<andythenorth>incidentally does the linux kernel do anything to prevent users unintentionally writing crap all over their data?
02:01<andythenorth>can I just swap two modules that behave entirely differently but use the same memory location?
02:01<andythenorth>with no probelms?
02:04<Rubidium>andythenorth: kernel modules? written yourself?
02:05<andythenorth>no downloaded from arbitrary third parties
02:05<andythenorth>who may or may not be around
02:05<andythenorth>and may or may not have a license that allows you to patch / maintain the module
02:05<Rubidium>when you load something into the kernel all bets are generally off
02:06<Rubidium>it could well be some sort of hostageware or so
02:06<Rubidium>and then your data isn't safe
02:06<andythenorth>and linux guis make that easy to do?
02:07<Rubidium>I have no idea; don't know any GUIs that (re)load kernel modules
02:08<andythenorth>it's a symptom of rising unfreedom that linux users can't reload kernel modules whenever they like
02:09<@peter1138>i bet he's the sort of person who uses computers as Administrator/root
02:09<andythenorth>file formats
02:09<andythenorth>symptom of unfreedom
02:10<andythenorth>I should be able to order my bytes however I want, at my own risk
02:10<andythenorth>the enforcing of a format is unfree
02:10<Rubidium>but you have chosen for the unfreedom by chosing to install said software
02:11<@peter1138>i'm reminded of John Gilmore
02:12<__ln__>at least 80 people shot dead
02:13<andythenorth>it's not a fun news day :|
02:22<andythenorth>openttd is quite like ms
02:23<andythenorth>it has done embrace-and-extend to ttdp
02:24<andythenorth>implement the same API, then subtly extend the API in non-compatible ways
02:28<andythenorth>and by offering them features, openttd hides from users all the ways in which they are being had
02:28<andythenorth>locking them in and exploiting them
02:29<andythenorth>openttd is an exemplary evil entity
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02:33<andythenorth>the use of the GPL is another symptom of this proprietary mentality
02:34<andythenorth>openttd developers are behaving like an evil empire, limiting the freedoms of people with a license that imposes nothing but control
02:35<andythenorth>the license insists the software must be free. That's unfree!
02:35<andythenorth>controlling users by giving them the right to modify the software in any way they choose. Unfree!
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03:09<@planetmaker>to the channel of the un-free ;-)
03:10<@planetmaker>KittenKoder: it's reference to a certain forum thread
03:10<KittenKoder>Oookaaaay .... haven't seen it.
03:12<@planetmaker>andythenorth: good actually that we have you. Your painting skills are dearly needed to paint over the stains slavery leaves behind ;-)
03:12<flitz>a need an advice ... again :(
03:13<KittenKoder>Hmm ... perhaps someone can link the forum thread that I might share in this inside joke?
03:14<@planetmaker> <-- obvious title, eh?
03:14<andythenorth>it's dumb
03:14<flitz>If I do something like: Train *virt = (Train*)calloc(1, sizeof(Train)); I want this virt-Train to behave like a normal one. I can fill it with the necessary data field values but how could I call a Train:: member function on virt ?
03:14<andythenorth>from "you can't change newgrfs" to "it's fascism" in less than 2 pages of a thread
03:15<@planetmaker>ha, andythenorth: I just missed the word 'godwin event' - but yes, I don't quite recall it either
03:16<KittenKoder>You were right .... it's dumb .. but at least your joke now makes sense to me.
03:17*planetmaker needs a way to specify a minimum colum width: <-- looks ugly...
03:18<KittenKoder>Aaaw pooh.
03:19<KittenKoder>I think I figured out how to really boost FIRS profits even with all the "hard" settings.
03:19<KittenKoder>Quick question, anyone know if there's a problem with ECS?
03:19<andythenorth>decompile FIRS and change the cargo payment rates?
03:19<flitz>hm, nobody ?
03:20<KittenKoder>Initial loan paid off in 3 years .... bah, sandboxed again.
03:23<andythenorth>KittenKoder: if you want to lose the game a lot, try YACD, TAI, UKRS 2, high costs, PBI + start in 1890
03:24<andythenorth>I think it's impossible using a $300k initial loan
03:24<KittenKoder>1890 start would make it harder.
03:24<andythenorth>no RVs
03:24<KittenKoder>No RVs with FIRS is impossible. :p
03:24<KittenKoder>If you have all industries capable of closing.
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03:30<V453000>duh, profits :)
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04:04<@Terkhen>good morning
04:06<V453000>hi Terkhen :)
04:06<@planetmaker>mooooorning :-)
04:07<V453000>hi :P
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04:19<Rubidium>flitz: I guess you need to call at least the constructor so it sets up the vtables properly
04:20<Sacro>grr, my first class seat is going backwards :(
04:20<Rubidium>what? They don't turn around seats in the train?
04:21<Rubidium>how uncivilised
04:22<Sacro>I know :(
04:22<Sacro>and the only free thing I get is tea/coffee or water or a fruit drink
04:22<Sacro>oh and wifi and a comfy leather seat
04:23<Sacro>but the seams are rather harsh
04:23<flitz>you have internet during train rides ? I'm jealous ;)
04:23<Sacro>ooh, this seat is adjustable
04:23<Sacro>I think I just dropped a sachet of milk into an air vent :`
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04:54<flitz>"flitz: I guess you need to call at least the constructor so it sets up the vtables properly" << hooray for inlined functions !
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05:55<Eddi|zuHause>something isn't right, the wikipedia page for the 03.10 says 20bar, but for 01.10 it says 16 bar... why would the two be different?
05:57<@Alberth>oh noes, not all information at the internets is reliable!
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07:06<@planetmaker>oh, now it suddenly became boring. This HvS guy has no new arguments anymore and kinda re-plays the same old story again and again ;-)
07:06<MNIM>sounds like a forum
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07:35<@orudge>frosch123: Cite enabled. (Conveniently, that one does come with Debian :) )
07:35<frosch123>btw. what did you do with the dumphtml?
07:35<frosch123>is it enabled, and what does it do with the output, if it is
07:36<@orudge>DumpHTML is actually just a .php scripot
07:36<@orudge>it's not an extension per se
07:36<@orudge>also, it'll need some hacking to get it to recognise that we have multiple MediaWiki installations running out of a single directory
07:36<frosch123>yeah, but could there be a daily cronjob creating a zip
07:36<@orudge>so, I'll have to look into that
07:36<frosch123>which we can link from the main toc?
07:36<@orudge>and yes, that's the eventual intention
07:36<frosch123>ok, thanks :)
07:36<@orudge>might have to wait until tomorrow or Monday though, as I'm heading away for the weekend shortly
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07:47<frosch123> <- yay for footnotes
07:50<andythenorth>if someone voids the warranty, do they get their money back
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08:43<andythenorth>do these look too similar?
08:44<andythenorth>can you tell them apart?
08:45<MNIM>well, one is bigger, du
08:46<SpComb>one got the end chopped off
08:46<MNIM>Id say a little bit more difference on the building would have
08:47<MNIM>SpComb: one of 'em has higher boards too
08:47<SpComb>yeah, the front is slimmer too
08:47<andythenorth>the house is identical on both
08:47<MNIM>perhaps give one of them a CC coloured chimney and one in black only?
08:47<andythenorth>MNIM: that's not a bad idea
08:47<andythenorth>the bigger one is new
08:47<andythenorth>work in progress
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08:48<MNIM>Id say give the bigger one the black chimney, as it already has it's CC visible enough without a CC chimney
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09:15<@planetmaker>anyone knows whether ttdpatch implements NewObjects, variable 0x48 (views)
09:16*andythenorth needs to name that boat
09:21<frosch123>planetmaker: r2355
09:21<@planetmaker>ok, thx
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10:16<+michi_cc>planetmaker: look broken (and yes, I checked several browsers :)
10:16<@planetmaker>the numbers after a few of those version thingies?
10:16<@planetmaker>that's the NFO version, not a programme version
10:17<+michi_cc>Ah, you have a || instead of | in some of the templates, I'll fix that.
10:18<+michi_cc>The NFO version needs some better visual though, the way it is right now nobody will understand it.
10:19<@planetmaker>oh, in that I fixed it already, yes, there slipped some erronous || through
10:20<@planetmaker>I wonder whether we should just kick out the NFO versions...
10:20<@planetmaker>who's interested in nfo v2 after all? OpenTTD cannot read it...
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>NFO version is relevant in quite a few places
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>most notably the change of language IDs from 6 to 7
10:22<@planetmaker>yes. But as now in the properties it's mostly useless
10:22<@planetmaker>and elsehwere it's hardly (ever?) mentioned. Except in that one case: languages
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10:33<+michi_cc>Feel free to revert it if you don't think it's good this way.
10:33<@planetmaker>no, it's quite lovely :-)
10:34<+michi_cc>That indication might get more important if we ever do v8 :)
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>hm... not entirely sure why, but these IDs are free: 135, 165, 368, 397, 398
10:34<@planetmaker>yup, then it might be more important
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>oh, those are not included entries...
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>135 is a swiss engine that has a duplicate identifier...
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>165 is the E10.3
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>397 and 398 are the saxon narrow gauge engines
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10:40<Eddi|zuHause>and 368 is another duplicate identifier, this time for SBB
10:41<flitz>when some (vehicle related) error message appears in an error msg box, the message can be (partly) defined within the newgrf too right ?
10:42<flitz>rather than only in the english.txt
10:43<flitz>I'm asking because I found one and can't find the related text in the english.txt file and think that I remembered something like this about the grf files
10:44<@planetmaker>I'm still no step further in my judgment wrt _your_ error message ;-)
10:45<@planetmaker>but things like 'caboose needed' or so must be newgrf supplied
10:45<flitz>I don't care for the specific error :) In my case it is "can haul only high speed carriages" (from the UKRS2 set)
10:46<flitz>I am actually looking for the piece of code that does this particular check
10:46<@planetmaker> <-- DaveW made quite a good point there. I'm surprised :-)
10:47<@planetmaker>flitz: it's the 'can attach wagon' callback
10:47<flitz>ah thanks
10:49<@planetmaker>hm, I'm quite happy, that we moved the NewGRF wiki
10:49<@planetmaker>It's getting better and better :-9
10:49<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Putting the CETS tracking table into docs/ is a bit misleading me thinks... :)
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: maybe
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: when i put it there, i wasn't quite sure how far the auto-generation will go ;)
10:51<frosch123>michi_cc: planetmaker: i would not use the grf version tags to indicate when something was added. ottd and ttdp added stuff at different points so you cannot define it by the version. i thought those tags were only for differences when something changed
10:51<flitz>hm, would there be an 'easy' way to do callbacks without having an actual Vehicle* at hand ? say if I only had the correct EngineID for example ?
10:52<@planetmaker>frosch123: You probably know better what the grf version tags mean... But I do not find everywhere an explanation related to them
10:52<+michi_cc>frosch123: It was this way in the old table, but that might have been wrong all along of course :)
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>flitz: only the purchase list does that, afaik. and i don't think that you will get particularly useful results with that
10:53<@planetmaker>the 'can attach wagon' CB can only be called from an actual vehicle
10:53<frosch123>michi_cc: oh, ok, well, then it was ttdp only anyway :)
10:54<flitz>I'm coming back to this problem time and time again, found some workarounds in some cases but overall it really hurts that I don't have access to many of those vehicle functions without an vehicle
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>flitz: i told you that before ;)
10:55<@planetmaker>welcome to the lovely world of newgrfs, flitz ;-)
10:55<@planetmaker>it'll become even more fun, if you have a vehicle which allows being attached in February and every first week of the month only
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>flitz: you'll find no way around creating vehicles
10:56<flitz>my only alternative seemed to be to derive from Train* or so but then I would have stored my templatevehicles together with the normal vehicles and that would have brought even more problems (and less future compatiblity)
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>flitz: i already gave the autoreplace code as reference, it builds a number of virtual vehicles first, before attempting the actual replace
10:57<flitz>if I didn't miss anything, that didn't really help me
10:57<flitz>you mean code like this ? "Train **old_vehs = CallocT<Train *>(num_units);"
10:58<flitz>from the autoreplace_cmd.cpp
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>not this particular one
11:00<frosch123>take a look at articulated_vehicles.cpp, GetCapacityOfArticulatedParts() and stuff
11:00<frosch123>but you won't be able to test the can-wagon-be-attached without a vehicle
11:01<frosch123>for that you have to add some kind of "virtual train", which you can construct like a normal train, which costs nothing, but you cannot start or load it either
11:01<frosch123>you would also need such a thing for template-based autoreplace :p
11:03<flitz>ok, building a virtual train when creating a template should work
11:03<flitz>thought, the autoreplacement worked for me without virtual vehicles, I did this already a while ago
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>autoreplace builds the new train first, and then sells the old one only if it succeeded
11:04<flitz>the creation and drawing of template vehicles gives me headaches though, as there are many things to check and make sure which is not possible if I only have engineIDs
11:05<@planetmaker>that's where creation of vehicles is also benefitial it seems :-)
11:06<flitz>I tried that (at least for the drawing part) and failed :)
11:07<flitz>one thing is that I don't know a tile to create a vehicle on in all generality, but maybe I don't need that (only if I want to use the cmd-functions)
11:07<flitz>and then creating such a virtual train just for drawing a template (as like a whole list of them) is way too much overhead and produced some weird results
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11:08<flitz>I draw my templates now via the GetRailIcon() function, like the depot-gui, but even that doesn't work 100%
11:09<flitz>because I only get a full sprite from this function and cannot determine the actual vehicle length (in sprite terms) from that, whereas real vehicles can do a callback for that
11:10<flitz>the UKRS2 sprites for example have a lot of blue fluff to the left and right of them and determing the size of the actual drawable stuff works through a callback again
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>that won't work as soon as the vehicle defines custom sprites for the purchase list
11:10<flitz>custom sprites like the UKRS2 set ?
11:10<flitz>I'm using that as reference
11:11<frosch123>try nars for an extreme version of purchase list sprites
11:11*frosch123 sigh
11:13<flitz>a lot of additional conditions for composing trains there ?
11:13<frosch123>no idea, i do not usally play with it
11:15<@planetmaker>there are at least some like MU / not MU
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11:16<flitz>I think for creating a template I will use a virtual train, that should be easiest, only the drawing part (when no virtual train is around) is still meh
11:17<frosch123>AIs would be happy about test-mode train construction as well :)
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11:19<flitz>maybe make it a more general thing ? ^^
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>flitz: you can store the sprite-IDs from the virtual train in your template
11:24<flitz>hand -> head *bang*
11:25<flitz>Eddi: of course, thanks, could have thought of that already
11:29<tulcod>i gave pathzilla 50 million pound, and it now has 209 road vehicles and 39 million pound. wat the heck?
11:31<frosch123>what do you expect from some random guy, if you give him money?
11:31<tulcod>well not that it magically disappears
11:32<tulcod>i'd expect him to buy something useless
11:32<tulcod>but pathzilla didn't even buy something useless
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11:32<Eddi|zuHause>road construction?
11:32<@planetmaker>it's an AI ;-)
11:32<@planetmaker>not an AS :-P
11:33<tulcod>and i don't understand all the fuss about rondje om de kerk, it doesn't seem to be making much more profit htan the other AIs
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the differences are vague :p
11:33<@planetmaker>tulcod: it's a parasite
11:33<tulcod>planetmaker: so i should build loads of crap first?
11:33<@planetmaker>it waits for others to build the road an then uses that to compete with them there
11:33<tulcod>.. wow...
11:34<@planetmaker>and kinda handling vehicles in a semi-cheat way
11:34<tulcod>yeah, selling them on arrival, and then building a new depot at arrival to send the same vehicles back and sell them again
11:34<tulcod>(cause that's what it's doing with bus stops)
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>it makes more sense with trucks, because they don't need a way back at all
11:36<tulcod>well yeah, and the advantage is... keeping the road free?
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>that, and you constantly get the "new vehicle" bonus at the stations
11:36<tulcod>pathzilla is down to 37 million btw
11:36<tulcod>there's a new vehicle bonus? :P
11:37<@planetmaker>you'll find the details wrt station rating in the game mechanics page in the wiki
11:37<@planetmaker>thus maybe my knowledge is wrong ;-)
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>the existence of google and wikipedia makes people forget things faster :p
11:38<@planetmaker>it does...
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11:40<tulcod>does it? i forgot
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11:46<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: you forgot facebook in the list
11:46<frosch123>you do not have to remember what you did on the last party :p
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11:51<LordAro>kvirc isn't working, so i'm on mibbit :(
11:52<LordAro>Alberth: the readme viewer is progressing, but i need some help about malloc-ing and/or fread-ing. Hint?
11:53<@Alberth>is that not in some saved log of yours?
11:53<@Alberth>I seem to remember telling you how to do that, at least
11:53<LordAro>yes, but only mentioning that i need to use it, i've no idea how :L
11:54<Rubidium>so... do I read it right, Apple releases another version of Mac OS X and again video stuff magically doesn't work anymore
11:54<@Alberth>I doubt it is by magic
11:54<LordAro>Rubidium: of course :)
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11:56<Eddi|zuHause>great, i swapped the template graphics, and get 40 thousand reports of pixels being white :p
11:56<@Alberth>LordAro: char *ptr = malloc(size); if (fread(ptr, 1, size, fp) != size) { /* read error */ }
11:57<@Alberth>and free(ptr) after you're done with the data, of course
11:57<LordAro>Alberth: ok, where does 'size', '1', or 'fp' come from?
11:57<Rubidium>char *ptr = MallocT<char>(size) is better
11:58<@Alberth>Rubidium: good point
11:58<Rubidium>fp is the file pointer you got when you opened the file
11:58<@Alberth>and 'size' is the size of the data
11:59<LordAro>and where would i get that from? (sorry, haven't ot much idea about this have i? :) )
11:59<Rubidium>i.e. size_t size; FILE *fp = FioFOpenFile(filename, "r", DATA_DIR, &size);
11:59<LordAro>dammit, g2g in a min, carry on writing, and i'll get it from the logs
11:59<LordAro>thanks Rubidium :)
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13:00<__ln__>solamente inglés
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13:07<supermop>i want a cheese based industry set
13:09<@planetmaker>convert toyland into the land of milk and honey and you're set ;-)
13:09<@planetmaker>also... the only way you can die by cheese it trying to carry too much :-P
13:10-!-planetmaker changed the topic of #openttd to: tt
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>need the old topic?
13:10<@planetmaker>how did I set the topic title? I've no idea
13:11<perk11>and what if you eat stale cheese?
13:11<perk11> The topic is '1.1.1 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only' (set by ChanServ!services@s on 28 Июнь 2011 г. 16:56:32)
13:11<__ln__>well 'tt' is short and straight to the point
13:11-!-planetmaker changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.1 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only
13:12<@planetmaker>thx, perk11
13:12<supermop>cheese, beer, pickles, whiskey, more cheese
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13:20<supermop>cheese mines, whiskey rig,
13:20<supermop>pikle mill?
13:22<flitz>"convert toyland into the land of milk and honey and you're set ;-)" << is anybody actually playing toyland ?
13:22*planetmaker is
13:22<flitz>I always thought it just hurts the eyes too much :)
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>that was true, until opengfx introduced less painful graphics
13:23<flitz>will try again some time
13:24<supermop>what would be the best way to represent cottage industry?
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13:25<@planetmaker>what industry would that be?
13:26<supermop>in the early stages of the industrial revolution, much wool weaving was actually done in small batches in people's homes
13:27<@planetmaker>well, so you need to draw the typical rural 'industries'
13:27<supermop>then collected, paid a certain rate, and shipped in bulk to cities or for export
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13:28<supermop>well, I am wondering if a town set with some houses that produce tiny amounts of goods would make sense
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>compare and
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>flitz: ^
13:29<supermop>consider the modern american microbrew, and later craft brew movement
13:29<@planetmaker>supermop: that all depends on cargo payment rates, vehicles etc
13:30<supermop>where some beers are made in spaces no larger than a shop or restaurant, although they still seem some shipping and distribution across the country and around the world
13:30<supermop>*see, not seem
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: actually, in the above image, you see that the opengfx ship has wrong offset
13:30<supermop>i always though of that sort of craft good as 'mail' in the TT world
13:32<supermop>ie, if you order something direct from the producer and it comes via fedex or dhl
13:32<supermop>that is sort of like the mail cargo
13:33<supermop>so that 'craft' industry would exist in the backround of the 'heavy' industry that TT focuses on
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>so what exactly is the issue now?
13:34<supermop>but if i wanted a quaint set that excludes steel mills and coal mines, it might make sense to have distilleries, woodworkers, and other artisans
13:35<supermop>just wondering if it is better to have houses produce cargo, or just make very small industries that get built in towns
13:36<@planetmaker>houses come and go. Thus it's an unstable production site
13:36<@planetmaker>and a player could never found them
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>hm... movement looks slightly odd with the shorter wagons
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>the turning point is not right ;)
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22683 /trunk/src/lang/italian.txt:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
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13:49<flitz>Eddi: "compare": yep, opengfx is definitely better
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14:03<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: it's not quite shorter wagons; the wagons will still be the same length. They just let the next wagon follow closer
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i meant "shorter than one full tile" :p
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14:17<+michi_cc>frosch123: Where can I find which TTDPatch version r1816 corresponds to? Is that still 2.5 or are all rXXX 2.6?
14:20<Rubidium>IIRC somewhere in the 2.6 alphas they got revisions, although...
14:21<Rubidium>hmm, nope :(
14:21<Rubidium>bbbb (build) SVN revision (from TTDPatch 2.5 beta 5 r418 on)
14:22<Rubidium>nevertheless... just check
14:22<Rubidium>it gets added to trunk, so it must be 2.6
14:22<Rubidium>as 2.5 is in branch/2.5
14:22<frosch123>michi_cc: tons of stuff was devoped in 2.5 branch and backported to trunk
14:22<frosch123>there is no easy way to tell
14:23<+michi_cc>I'm going to assume 2.6 according to the log of Rb then
14:26<frosch123>yeah, not much happened in 2.5 branch after r1816
14:27<Rubidium>even then, if the commit is after 2.5b9 just say 2.6. That's more honest
14:30<frosch123>also true
14:35<Rubidium>the download page still says Mac OS X 10.3-10.5 (universal build)
14:35<Rubidium>I'd almost say that we should keep it that way
14:35<Rubidium>and blame everyone with 10.6 or 10.7 that has bugs for using a version of OpenTTD not meant for their OS
14:36<Chris_Booth>10.6 doesn't work properly? snow leopard is old now
14:36<@peter1138>if only we had a mac-maintainer...
14:37<frosch123>does 10.7 allow installing custom software?
14:38<Chris_Booth>I think it does it still has access to the console ETC
14:38<Chris_Booth>just comes with the app store aswell
14:38<Chris_Booth>it also still supports steam so it must allow custom code to be run
14:54<V453000>what does a cargo decay actually mean? That I get 0 money for delivery if it is going for too long or that some part of cargo gets lost during long travel?
14:55<frosch123>open the ingame graphs for income vs. traveltime
14:56<frosch123>then image time running faster for the cargo in some conditions
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15:30<@planetmaker>Rubidium: we can call it with somewhat good concience 10.3 - 10.6 for what it's worth. But 10.7 definitely not
15:31<@planetmaker>After all 10.6 has not more bugs than the other versions.
15:32<andythenorth>supermop: mod FIRS for cheese :P
15:32<andythenorth>btw, DanMacK and I discussed early textile industry
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15:34<andythenorth>I have two wireless networks and 2 ADSL connections
15:34<andythenorth>none are reliable
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>you have to make them redundant
15:34<andythenorth>can anyone recommend a decent wifi router?
15:34<andythenorth>both of mine died recently
15:35<andythenorth>in our office building, an apple wifi router goes three floors
15:35<andythenorth>in my house it barely goes 8 feet
15:35<tulcod>andythenorth: maybe power ethernet?
15:35<andythenorth>my house is wired for ethernet ;)
15:36<tulcod>so why are you on wireless?
15:36<andythenorth>trailing a cable would be impractical for n minor reasons
15:37*andythenorth wonders
15:37<tulcod>andythenorth: okay, so maybe your pc's adapter is kinda shitty
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15:37<andythenorth>are old cast iron radiators likely to be creating dead zones?
15:38<tulcod>well, unless you're sitting behind them
15:38<andythenorth>I am
15:38<tulcod>but not like microwaves do
15:38<tulcod>well then yes
15:38<andythenorth>between me and the router is one wall
15:38<andythenorth>but on either side of the wall, two radiators
15:38<andythenorth>in line of sight between me and the wifi point
15:38<tulcod>try 802.11n then, it's said to make use of relfection
15:38<tulcod>and then get a MIMO one while you're at it
15:40<andythenorth>the old router had two ariels
15:40<andythenorth>that might explain better coverage, even though it was plain old 802.1g
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15:41<andythenorth>the wifi is in a cupboard with the mains electricity switchboard, and a couple of transformer coils
15:41<andythenorth>is that unhelpful?
15:42<tulcod>wouldn't matter much
15:42<tulcod>so why not move your router?
15:42<andythenorth>I moved it once to get better coverage
15:44<andythenorth>I should just buy a proper router
15:45<tulcod>a proper router won't penetrate a 3 inch metal wall
15:46<andythenorth>but then I can move the apple access point things back to where they should be for streaming music
15:46<andythenorth>and stop relying on them for wifi
15:46<andythenorth>and get a router with decent arials
15:46<andythenorth>instead of whatever apple have put in a 3 inch white brick
15:48<@planetmaker>you might just use a 'normal' router, andythenorth ;-)
15:49<andythenorth>google tells me 'readers rate apple routers the most reliable and best overall'
15:49*andythenorth disagrees
15:49<Rubidium>tulcod: a proper router has the ability to connect antennae via cables, so you can put several antennae around the house for optimal coverage
15:49<andythenorth>planetmaker: what's a 'normal' router?
15:51<andythenorth>apparently not just fanatics
15:51<andythenorth>the airport extreme has good reviews :(
15:51<andythenorth>they also reliably die about 10 days after warranty expires
15:51<andythenorth>mine did
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>that is perfectly industry standard nowadays :p
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15:52<Eddi|zuHause>don't need apple for that :p
15:53<V453000>frosch123: thanks :) that is... interesting :)
15:56*andythenorth looks at routers with removable antenna
15:56<andythenorth>wonder if they could be extended via ethernet? :o
15:56<andythenorth>it's just wires right?
15:57<__ln__>it's called planned obsolescence
15:58<andythenorth>it's also called 'apple will replace a known bad part for free if I go to an Apple store'
15:58<andythenorth>but apple stores are sinister
15:58<supermop>what would a cheese industry set be called? Cheese Users Replacement Development?
15:58<andythenorth>Cracking Cheese Grommit
15:58<andythenorth>it would probably be Aardman themed
15:59<__ln__>supermop: Lunar Mining Corporation
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>they would mine meat, obviously.
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16:16<supermop>just read about HSR crash in china
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16:23<__ln__>how much coverage is the norway situation getting in US?
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>"The Euro exchange rate is so bad for Switzerland, they start thinking about joining" <-- wth?
16:29<andythenorth>did the US default on the dollar yet?
16:29<andythenorth>that's going to be....interesting
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>i thought they had something like 10 days left
16:29<supermop>august 2nd
16:30<LordAro>i agree, it's going to be very interesting when the world economy collapses...
16:30<andythenorth>or when it doesn't
16:30<supermop>thats not the day of a default, just the day that the debt reaches a limit we had told ourselves we wouldnt cross
16:31<supermop>default or not happens separate from that
16:31<supermop>when creditors do not get paid on time
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: that's exactly a "default". the point where you have no more money to spend
16:31<andythenorth>LordAro: if you rationally believe the economy will collapse...have you bought gold?
16:31<andythenorth>the default happens when the first payments aren't met
16:31<supermop>default is when you borrow money, then say "oh, we actually will not be paying that part back"
16:32<supermop>the debt ceiling has nothing to do with paymets
16:32<LordAro>andythenorth: it's certainly worth thinking about, at least removing your money from a bank :L
16:32<andythenorth>LordAro: do you think everyone should remove their money from banks?
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: you wouldn't talk about raising the debt limit, if there were no payments to be met
16:33<LordAro>up to them, i'm no economist
16:33<supermop>those payments are not to the creditors
16:33<supermop>those are to things like the army
16:33<andythenorth>LordAro: what happens if everyone removes their money from banks? :D
16:33<andythenorth>supermop: won't the first step be a federal govt shutdown?
16:33<supermop>not likely
16:33<LordAro>oh, right. world economy collapses :)
16:34<supermop>probably money will be borrowed under an emergency executive order
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>we should have bank runs more often :p
16:34<LordAro>i love all this positive thinking :p
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>so the banks actually realize that it's a possibility
16:34<supermop>which will be politically very bad,
16:35<supermop>and hurt one of the parties at the next election
16:35<supermop>depending on who best frames the other as responsible
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: how is that going to change anything?
16:35<andythenorth>supermop: the impression from here - in the serious press - is that nobody realised quite how serious the Tea Party movement were about destroying the federal govt
16:35<@planetmaker>but the realization that the state will cover the debt, as they're too big to fail doesn't help either in the end
16:36<andythenorth>it seems that a default + shutdown of Federal Govt is exactly what Tea Partiers are seeking
16:36<supermop>the last times the republicans tried to force a shut down it destroyed their party leadership for about 3 years
16:36<supermop>the tea parties are still not that large, but
16:36<LordAro>"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." -- Winston Churchill
16:36<supermop>at this point the republicans have become reliant on them for political identity
16:37<supermop>the most important voting blocs are still non aligned moderates
16:37<andythenorth>what will happen to the political right in the US if the dollar collapses as the world's reserve currency?
16:37*andythenorth has no clue
16:37<supermop>they wont care
16:37<supermop>the far right don't see any currency other than gold as having value
16:38<andythenorth>gold, guts, and guns :P
16:38<supermop>as to default
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>it's a race whether the euro or the dollar go down first
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>the other will see a big shift in cash flow
16:38<supermop>that hapes when treasury bonds mature and the owners do not get their money back
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>and everything will be fine for the next 20 years
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>or it'll look like a mad max movie. whatever.
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: but that happens all the time
16:39<supermop>basically default is less about policemen not getting paid, and more about china losing out on its investment
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: it's a more or less continuous process
16:39<supermop>which causes china to not want to buy our bonds any more
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>it's not like it's china's fault
16:41<supermop>is it your fault if you buy stock in a company that is going out of business?
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>no, as long as every rating agency ever gave it an AAA+++ rating
16:42*andythenorth wonders if the Renminbi will become reserve currency :P
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>"there is no possible scenario ever that wou won't get your money back"
16:42<supermop>not idf it does not appreciate to correct value andy
16:42<supermop>people with current T-notes are still getting their money back
16:42<supermop>that could change
16:43<supermop>not over night on august 2nd, but over the course of a few months
16:43<andythenorth>someone should send the rogue republicans a wikipedia artilce
16:43<andythenorth>article /s
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>i'd send you but it's in german
16:45<supermop>they would read that instead
16:47<andythenorth>it's rare that you mean an Andrew who doesn't have strong and bizarre opinions
16:47<andythenorth>mean / meet /s
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>s/an Andrew/any person/
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16:56<LordAro>conservapedia really is very funny :)
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17:00<Eddi|zuHause>err... "teacher of homeschooling classes" <-- that sounds like an oxymoron
17:01*andythenorth makes boats
17:07<supermop>i had an idea for boats last night, but now i have forgotten
17:11<__ln__>are there plans for mines underwater? (i don't mean a naval mine but ore mining)
17:12<supermop>rare earths in sea mud?
17:14<andythenorth>but I want to add a dredger to HEQS
17:15<@Terkhen>good night
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---Logclosed Sun Jul 24 00:00:19 2011