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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-07-31

---Logopened Sun Jul 31 00:00:49 2011
00:06<Pikka>isn'tit
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01:40<andythenorth>Pikka: mornink
01:42<Pikka>gday andy
01:43*Pikka just spent 20 minutes searching for something that was tucked under my monitor
01:43<andythenorth>it'll be in the last place you look
01:43<andythenorth>law of physics
01:43<andythenorth>or maybe semantics
01:43<Pikka>or simply common sense
01:44*Pikka afk
01:46<andythenorth>common sense :o
01:46<andythenorth>don't see much of that :P
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02:13<Pikka>there's got to be some somewhere
02:13<Pikka>I'm very impressed by how smoothly rise of flight alt-tabs, incidentally
02:17<@peter1138>pardon?
02:22<Pikka>peter1138, most complex 3d games don't alt-tab very smoothly, they take forever to do it and often don't work properly afterwards
02:23<Pikka>rise of flight bounces up and down with no issues whatsoever. so far. :)
02:31<@planetmaker>moin
02:35<Pikka>good morning planetmaker
02:37<@planetmaker>hello Pikka :-)
02:40<andythenorth>Pikka: wrt yesterday's shenanigans...
02:40<andythenorth>- my plan is to cost balance HEQS + FISH against both default vehicles + pikka world
02:40<andythenorth>with a parameter to switch
02:41<andythenorth>it's got a few issues, but should work
02:46<@planetmaker>That's what I do as well. So yes, it works. And hello andythenorth :-)
02:47<andythenorth>so basically there are two cost schemes
02:47<andythenorth>default + pikka world
02:48<andythenorth>how does pikka world vary from default?
02:48<andythenorth>how many axes are there? two? (buy cost + run cost)
02:49<andythenorth>plus pikk* sets have variable run cost
02:49<andythenorth>and vehicles get more expensive as they age
02:49<V453000>never noticed that
02:49<V453000>also hi :)
02:49<@planetmaker>hi V453000
02:49<Pikka>I don't know how it varies from the default, I've never considered the default vehicles when balancing my sets :)
02:50<andythenorth>but you know what characteristics your scheme has...
02:50<V453000>hi pm :)
02:50<andythenorth>basically I'm happy to support both
02:50<Pikka>well, sure
02:50<andythenorth>I'm happy to add code for variable running costs + aging as well, which switches on parameter
02:51<Pikka>also, because of the variable running costs, the "official" running cost as it appears in the buy menu is really a guide only
02:52<Pikka>actual running costs will depend on how the vehicle is used
02:52<@planetmaker>Pikka: from my tests with various vehicle sets (and I did that in order to allow OpenGFX+ Trains be adjust wrt a number of them) your sets are indifferent wrt purchase costs but a +2 wrt running costs (i.e. a /4 will balance it)
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02:53<andythenorth>can the default setting for a parameter be changed?
02:54<andythenorth>wrt detecting another grf
02:54<Pikka>I don't think so, andy
02:54<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-trains/repository/entry/src/header.pnml#L220 <-- my summary of how different sets are balanced
02:54<@planetmaker>andythenorth: yes, they can
02:54<Pikka>oh
02:54<@Alberth>moin peoples
02:54<andythenorth>hola
02:54<@planetmaker>that's what ogfx+trains does
02:54<@planetmaker>hello Alberth
02:55<Pikka>well, maybe then. you can check if it's not defined and then define it as x?
02:55<andythenorth>have any other authors got coherent cost schemes?
02:55<@planetmaker>If it detects a pikka newgrf it will set its own runcosts also to base +2
02:55<@planetmaker>yes
02:55*andythenorth doesn't have a coherent scheme - costs don't excite me :P
02:55<@planetmaker>well. I just linked the code I use :-)
02:56<Pikka>costs don't excite a lot of newgrf authors
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02:57<V453000>costs are just a matter of slowing the game down really, not changing anything too much I think
02:58<@planetmaker>possibly. Though I have the feeling at least half somewhat do care. But that might be selective perception
02:59<V453000>well one thing is care and one is to hope it will change the gameplay to something interesting >]
02:59<V453000>:)
02:59<@Alberth>planetmaker: probably just within a single set
03:00<Pikka>indeed V453000
03:01<@Alberth>V453000: if you disable breakdown, there is little force to make a careful selection
03:01<andythenorth>variable costs make quite a difference
03:01<Pikka>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=45637&start=519
03:01<andythenorth>as does terrain
03:01<Pikka>is basically the aim of my set balance
03:01<andythenorth>with YACD + UKRS2 the variable costs make things very very hard
03:01<Pikka>and is what you're breaking, planetmaker :P
03:02<V453000>Alberth: breakdowns are unusable
03:02<andythenorth>YACD encourages running PAX trains barely loaded which causes losses, whereas normally they'd wait for full load + make a profit
03:02<@planetmaker>Pikka: I do not want to break your sets - least of all. They're one of the best balanced sets around, no doubt
03:03<V453000>andythenorth: higher costs and """""harder""""" game means only one thing: You have to find "the best" way how to play in terms of profit. The only effect it really has is cutting down the final creativity after you find "the best" way.
03:04<@planetmaker>But I wonder how I can make it possible to use different vehicle sets concurrently without dissallowing that and without disagreeing about average price levels more than 100%
03:04<@planetmaker>and I still don't have a good solution to that :-)
03:04<andythenorth>V453000: maybe, but finding the 'best' way is the interesting 'problem'
03:04<V453000>yes, certainly
03:04<andythenorth>it's like a puzzle
03:04<andythenorth>basically I like things to 'solve'
03:04<V453000>but with the way how openttd works it is not that hard (in my opinion)
03:05<V453000>yes, sure, but it makes it a game for a goal with the moment when you reach it, you get mildly bored
03:05<andythenorth>yes
03:05<andythenorth>but in the meantime...
03:05<@Alberth>yet you see newbies fail at the game :)
03:05<V453000>just like if you "win" some game
03:05<@planetmaker>Pikka: and *because* I like your newgrfs I basically started yesterday's discussion with you ;-)
03:05<Pikka>planetmaker; all I'm asking is that until you do have a good solution, don't implement a bad solution :)
03:05<andythenorth>one reason I like new set releases because it gives something new to solve
03:05<V453000>andythenorth: but I can see the point and I agree that it can be fun :)
03:06<andythenorth>I'm holding back vehicles for HEQS so I can do a new release which will require different solutions
03:06<@planetmaker>the question is "what is bad"? ;-)
03:06<andythenorth>and the economies in FIRS are also intended to cause new solutions to be needed
03:06<andythenorth>V453000: maybe that idea could influence NUTS design :P
03:06<Pikka>making it so that new players will probably be playing grfs with stats other than those intended is "bad"
03:07<andythenorth>it's also boring
03:07<andythenorth>which is a crime
03:07<V453000>andythenorth: I do not think I will bother too much with costs in NUTS
03:08<andythenorth>it's not just costs - capacity, speed, hp, vehicle life....
03:08<Pikka>V453000, "The only effect it really has is cutting down the final creativity after you find "the best" way." - well, perhaps. but the only way you're going to make it so that there is no optimum solution for a given situation is to give every vehicle in your set the exact same statistics
03:09<andythenorth>V453000: my guess is that you prefer solving routing?
03:09<Pikka>at least with my sets, I strive to make it so that the best solution isn't exactly the same (fastest most powerful vehicle available) for every situation :)
03:09<andythenorth>we're all solving something, otherwise we wouldn't play
03:09<V453000>Pikka: yes, UKRS achieves that _very_ well
03:10<V453000>andythenorth: yes, certainly
03:10<@planetmaker>Pikka: but that still would hold true if running costs would be /4 ?
03:10<andythenorth>it must surely?
03:11<andythenorth>otherwise the difficulty setting wouldn't work
03:11<V453000>well not really
03:11<V453000>if you /4 it then all engines might be "fine"
03:11<Pikka>no, not at all. if you quarter the running cost of a vehicle without changing any other stats or the economy as a whole, it becomes more effective
03:11<@planetmaker>yes, but all vehicles do so?
03:12<V453000>but that is the whole point I am basically saying, the engines in UKRS for example are very well balanced by their speed, power, TE, so all are usable. Costs do not matter too much (if at all)
03:12*Pikka thinks I may need some props to make this clearer, brb
03:12<@planetmaker>:-)
03:13*andythenorth predicts we will discuss cargo payment rate next
03:13<@planetmaker>:-D
03:13<Rubidium>andythenorth: I gave a suggestion for that already... yesterday
03:14<Rubidium>it has a dependency though: yacd
03:14<andythenorth>that would be interesting
03:14<andythenorth>I was thinking only of current scheme
03:15<Rubidium>although it might work pretty well without a cd
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03:15<andythenorth>what was the idea?
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03:16<Rubidium>a base fare for cargos, so when loaded you get at least X, a component for the distance with a small difference in w.r.t. speed and a 'surcharge' for 'significantly faster than average' transports within the same class of vehicles
03:16<andythenorth>more realistic :P
03:17<Rubidium>e.g. if you fill the map with maglevs you make less money than when you have loads of (slower) feeder routes
03:17<andythenorth>'class of vehicles'?
03:17<Rubidium>train, ship, aircraft, rv
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03:17<andythenorth>but not subclasses?
03:17*andythenorth pokes Eddi|zuHause ^
03:17<Rubidium>andythenorth: please not ;)
03:17<andythenorth>bah
03:17<andythenorth>you know it makes sense
03:18<andythenorth>pax should pay more for travelling in a more luxurious vehicle
03:18<andythenorth>and food should be worth more if refrigerated
03:18<Rubidium>why should I care, as customer, that I'm in the fastest noisy diesel engine or in the slowest electric engine (diesel engine still slower than electric)?
03:19<Rubidium>I wouldn't pay extra money to be in a slower train, just because it's the fastest diesel train
03:19<andythenorth>why do people pay 110% more for first class seats?
03:19<andythenorth>it's still just a seat
03:19<Rubidium>leg room etc
03:19<@Alberth>the boss pays :)
03:19<Rubidium>less likely to sit with noisy students
03:20<andythenorth>anyway, we can leave subclasses out for now - it's a newgrf thing :P
03:20<andythenorth>Rubidium: how does your proposal vary from current payment?
03:20<Rubidium>andythenorth: although a surcharge component by NewGRFs wouldn't be that different
03:20<@planetmaker>hm, nice. Our yesterday's discussion gave me in the German forums a direct comparison with the chief of the MfS - the GDR's internal thought police
03:21<andythenorth>sounds like a godwin-class event :P
03:21<Rubidium>andythenorth: current one is very much speed derived, so fastest vehicle over longest distance == moneys
03:21<@planetmaker>andythenorth: guess who wrote that article ;-)
03:21<Prof_Frink>andythenorth: I think you'll find the answer is: They don't.
03:22<Rubidium>mine would make short routes more profitable due to the base fare
03:22<Rubidium>and longer routes hopefully (much) less profitable
03:22<andythenorth>and also long distance bulk transport would be flatter?
03:22<Rubidium>yep
03:22<Rubidium>depending on how it's all tweaked
03:22<andythenorth>hmm
03:23*andythenorth has distorted view
03:23<andythenorth>I set cargo rates how I want them to be :)
03:23<andythenorth>FIRS is pretty flat for bulk cargos
03:23<Rubidium>the major point is that the speed component of gets mostly ripped out the paid prices
03:23<andythenorth>Rubidium: it sounds like a good suggestion
03:24<Rubidium>except for that surcharge for faster than average vehicles in its class
03:24<andythenorth>would it be backwards compatible (i.e. we keep the current method as option)?
03:24<Rubidium>that'd be the way to go I'd say
03:24<andythenorth>hmm
03:24<@planetmaker>hm... ripping out speed? Hm... what's "Class" in that context, Rubidium?
03:24*andythenorth dislikes
03:24<@planetmaker>"train", "rv", "plane"?
03:24<Rubidium>planetmaker: yes
03:24<andythenorth>if there are two payment schemes, defining a cargo/industry set just got much harder
03:25<andythenorth>double the testing :P
03:25<@planetmaker>why, andythenorth?
03:25<Rubidium>this newgrf doesn't work with old cargo scheme: done ;)
03:25<@planetmaker>the important thing is that input = output. roughly
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03:26<andythenorth>I don't see how this doesn't increase testing
03:27<andythenorth>testing is already a PITA :P
03:27<@planetmaker>:-)
03:27<@planetmaker>I most probably broke production anyway :-P
03:29<Rubidium>andythenorth: just say that the NewGRF requires the new cargo scheme
03:29<@planetmaker>hm, yes, industry sets usually define cargos and their price properties... so yes, you're right, that'll need additional testing
03:30<andythenorth>every now and then I have the idea that the 'original' ttd stuff should be implemented as a newgrf
03:30<andythenorth>rather than spiralling out advanced settings
03:31<andythenorth>then authors of other newgrf sets have to make a choice how to do stuff, instead of having to support n combinations of advanced settings
03:31<Rubidium>andythenorth: you can't code the whole economy in a NewGRF
03:31<Rubidium>that'd make it way too slow
03:31<andythenorth>sure
03:31<Pikka>http://www.pruplethingz.com/junk/propnumbers.png
03:31<andythenorth>but some of the stuff - especially industry stuff - is a headache
03:32<andythenorth>Pikka: so if the cargo rates change....what happens to the numbers?
03:33<Pikka>if you quarter all the cargo rates and all the base costs along with the train running costs?
03:34<andythenorth>yes
03:34<andythenorth>1/4 probably results in losses all round
03:35<Pikka>well if you quarter the cost and value of /everything/, then I guess it all works as before, just with a currency that's worth 4 times as much
03:35<andythenorth>so ultimately we might as well put a factor in front of the currency :P
03:36<Pikka>yes. which you can already do easily enough. it doesn't get us anywhere with the interaction of multiple grf sets.
03:36<@planetmaker>ok, I see that point of the shifted balances...
03:36<andythenorth>if I was better at maths...
03:36<andythenorth>there's a common factor somewhere in this
03:36<@planetmaker>thanks pikka, that's very illustrative
03:36<andythenorth>it can all be factored out somehow
03:37<andythenorth>I was thinking yesterday of establishing a 'standard'
03:37<andythenorth>based on hauling 100t coal n tiles in a straight line, flat
03:37<andythenorth>and measuring the *profit* not the cost
03:39<andythenorth>Pikka: so using your model, it's trivial for me to break your set with my set
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03:40<Pikka>well, it's trivial for you to provide a vehicle that has better stats than the vehicles in my set and thus makes my set redundant for players looking to build the "best" loco, andy
03:40<Pikka>but there's never going to be any way around that
03:40<@planetmaker>of course. That's always feasable. No matter what
03:40<Pikka>except enforcing one person's idea of what a "correct" stat model is :)
03:41<andythenorth>it's also trivial for FIRS to set cargo rates that break your sets
03:41<andythenorth>that may even have happened already
03:42<Pikka>possibly
03:42<Pikka>if you set cargo rates dramatically different from the defaults
03:42<andythenorth>that's likely :D
03:42<andythenorth>hmph
03:42<andythenorth>this is all simple maths, it should be easier to solve :P
03:43*Pikka should try FIRS some time and report back
03:45<@planetmaker>hm... so basically the economy settings depend on the cargo rates (well, of course)
03:46<@planetmaker>which is basically a difficulty settings
03:46<@Terkhen>good morning
03:46<@planetmaker>moin Terkhen
03:46<andythenorth>I can't see a clean solution while authors still get to have their own ideas about rates
03:47<andythenorth>this is an issue of proper domain :P
03:47<@planetmaker>yes
03:47<andythenorth>but there's no right answer to 'who gets control'
03:47<Rubidium>you need a benevolent NewGRF standards dictator! ;)
03:47<andythenorth>plus, due to backwards compatibility it will never get solved
03:47*andythenorth proposes Rubidium
03:47<andythenorth>hmm
03:48*planetmaker has the feeling that our newgrf 'dictator' is a green amphibian :-P
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03:48<@Alberth>While playing with FS#4696 yesterday, I found http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/rotated_airport_glitches.png is this solvable in a simple way?
03:48<andythenorth>''.join(string.split('benevolent))
03:49*Rubidium rejects andythenorth's proposal
03:50<@Alberth>newgrf specs need to be designed better instead
03:50<@planetmaker>simple... I'm not sure whether it's easy to fix, Alberth
03:50<@planetmaker>the issue is the plane extending over the bound of the hangar
03:51<@Alberth>yep, they cheated in the airports :)
03:51<@planetmaker>yes ;-)
03:51<andythenorth>Alberth: propose a new design?
03:51<@Alberth>so my guess is that you need to change the actual coordinates of the hangar
03:51<andythenorth>I don't know if spec change solves it :P
03:51<@Alberth>+plane in the
03:51<Rubidium>Alberth: or just chop the sprite while drawing ;)
03:51<@planetmaker>well... ^
03:51<andythenorth>$someone must be good at maths
03:52<@planetmaker>sounds the more promising approach
03:52<andythenorth>I think a reference profit would solve this
03:52<@planetmaker>if (plain in hangar) { chop plane to hangar tile; }
03:52<andythenorth>i.e. transporting cargo n tiles produces profit x
03:53<Rubidium>planetmaker: you can only chop in | or - direction, but that should solve most of the problems
03:53<@planetmaker>that might be an interesting one-step setting for economy, andythenorth
03:53<@planetmaker>Rubidium: yes, sure
03:53<Rubidium>alternatively change the moment when the aircraft becomes (un)visible
03:54<Pikka>andy: but I think you should be able to make more profit in earlier years, or more profit in later years, or something
03:54<@planetmaker>there'll never be need to chop the plane on the backward tile base
03:54<Pikka>also, for arguments' sake, I disagree with your decision about what the reference profit should be. :)
03:54<andythenorth>propose an alternative :P
03:54<Rubidium>in the normal case they drive too far so the plane is hidden by the hangar roof before hiding/parking it
03:54<andythenorth>I see two ways to solve this
03:54<andythenorth>1) fix the spec
03:54<Rubidium>however, when it's turned it doesn't need to drive that far to at least hide it
03:55<andythenorth>2) support 'default world' and 'pikka world'
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03:55<@planetmaker>yes... but coordinates need to stay invariant under rotation of the airport...
03:55<andythenorth>so either a technical standard, or a convention
03:55<@Alberth>Rubidium: that's what I was thinking, so have a custom position with each rotation -> no need for generic rotation mechanisms
03:56<Pikka>andy: well, since it's an artistic and not a technical problem, I don't see how a technical standard is appropriate
03:56<Pikka>as for conventions, my numbers are published and/or available on request and people are free to try and match them if they like. :)
03:57<andythenorth>++ convention requires no patches :P
03:57<andythenorth>just a lot of griping at people
03:57<andythenorth>griping / encouragement /s
03:57<Rubidium>Alberth: but then the 180 degree rotated would be faster w.r.t. hangar operations
03:57<Pikka>but you can't force people to accept your standard, andy :)
03:57<andythenorth>can I fore them to accept yours? :P
03:58<Pikka>it's unlikely
03:59<andythenorth>can we read the base costs in their grfs and disable ours if we don't like them? :P
03:59<Pikka>planetmaker, just saw your pm, thanks :)
03:59<andythenorth>can a grf agree to delegate base cost setting to another grf?
03:59<andythenorth>i.e. inheritance / interfaces
03:59<Pikka>andy: I don't know about that, but mine disable themselves if a known incompatible grf is loaded
04:00<@planetmaker>:-)
04:00<Pikka>(but allow the user to reactivate them on acknowledgement that the mix of grfs is unsupported)
04:00<andythenorth>can a grf connect to my server to check a list of grfs I don't like?
04:01<andythenorth>think that violates the GPL :P
04:01<@Alberth>andythenorth: just hate all of them :)
04:02<Pikka>works for me ;)
04:03*Pikka goes to see if I can shoot down that darn balloon this time
04:05<andythenorth>hmm
04:05<andythenorth>s'not really about grfs I don't like :P
04:06<andythenorth>it's about it being hard to play nicely with grfs I *do* like
04:06<andythenorth>Pikka: if you'd just hurry up and do an RV set, the issue would be solved :P
04:07<@planetmaker>where are the bandits to steal that set when they're needed?
04:07<@planetmaker>:-P
04:08<@Alberth>are there airports rotated 90 or 270 degrees?
04:09<Rubidium>I think there might be a test newgrf for that
04:09<@planetmaker>Alberth: there's not (yet) afaik
04:10<andythenorth>planetmaker: the bandits are sulking
04:10<@planetmaker>But... a medium-quick test could be made probably
04:10<andythenorth>they are waiting for rv-wagons
04:10<@planetmaker>they stole them!
04:10<andythenorth>is rv-wagons even a good idea?
04:11<andythenorth>or does the gameplay of adding trailers just suck?
04:12<Rubidium>Alberth: try http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/airports01.grf
04:13<@Alberth>thanks
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04:14<@planetmaker>bah... articulated vehicles implementation sucks :S
04:14<@planetmaker>or rather their specs
04:15<andythenorth>what sucks about it?
04:15<@planetmaker>the articulated vehicle's ID being < 128
04:15<@planetmaker>by specs
04:15<@planetmaker>which is... big bullshit on part of the specs
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04:17<andythenorth>I thought that was getting fixed?
04:17<andythenorth>isn't it an issue with cb results?
04:17<Rubidium>v8?
04:18<@planetmaker>yes... but changing the CB result means breaking existing newgrfs. As bit 7 of the return value is interpreted as "bit set ? reverse view : normal view"
04:18<@planetmaker>so... it needs the ominous v8...
04:20<@planetmaker>btw... just generally, do you know http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch , Pikka?
04:21*Rubidium wonders how bad it would be to not allow v8 and < v8 NewGRFs to be loaded at the same time
04:21<@planetmaker>hm...
04:22<Rubidium>then you might be able do some more drastic things w.r.t. balancing shit
04:22<andythenorth>Rubidium: if v8 swept up some other crap, I would just make all my grfs v8 only
04:22<andythenorth>screw backwards compatibility :P
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04:22<andythenorth>so FIRS might only work with ships
04:22<andythenorth>hmm
04:22<andythenorth>whenever he's mentioned, he arrives
04:22<andythenorth>spooky
04:23<andythenorth>v8 could refuse to load any grf that doesn't implement certain parts of action 14 for starters
04:24<Rubidium>yep ;)
04:24<Rubidium>v8 only supports the DOS palette ;)
04:24<Rubidium>or is that taking it too far? ;)
04:24<andythenorth>no
04:24<andythenorth>that's a correct thing to do
04:24<andythenorth>unless you are trolling me :P
04:24<@Alberth>if you break it, break it big :)
04:25<Rubidium>then give it a release and drop pre v7 support mwhahahah ;)
04:25<@planetmaker>I'm not sure that making the grf versions mutually exclusive a requirement. But I'd allow the "extra" functionality only if only v8 is present
04:26<andythenorth>planetmaker: with v8, vehicle sets could be prevented from setting base cost
04:26<andythenorth>and the range of base cost could be adjusted
04:26<Rubidium>planetmaker: but things like balancing and changes to the economic model require all NewGRFs to cooperate. You better force that ;)
04:26<andythenorth>FISH only adjust base cost because the range is too small to accomodate higher costs without adjusting multiplier
04:26<Rubidium>it'd tie v8 together with rebalancing the game ;)
04:27<Rubidium>hmm, maybe that's a better approach
04:27<andythenorth>plus, we'd know what all the user suggestions were going to be for literally years
04:27<andythenorth>we could write a bot to reply to them
04:27<andythenorth>"wtf you broke my favourite grf"
04:27<andythenorth>could be answered by
04:27<Rubidium>Pikka & andythenorth: could you come up with a NewGRF that modifies the cargo payment, base costs and purchase costs so it gets more balanced?
04:28<andythenorth>"your grf author was too lazy to update / hand over their project to someone else / didn't use a proper license so no-one else can update"
04:28<Rubidium>(of the basic vehicles)
04:28<andythenorth>Rubidium: could that be shipped by default with trunk?
04:29<Rubidium>well, was more thinking about using those values as defaults
04:29<andythenorth>can the range of base costs be extended?
04:29<Rubidium>then for NewGRF purposes the NewGRF can request the new default base costs, otherwise it gets the old base costs
04:29<andythenorth>less fine grained, higher upper limits?
04:31<Rubidium>I guess that would be almost a prerequisite, wouldn't it?
04:31<andythenorth>Rubidium: would this be before or after you change the payment model? :D
04:31<Rubidium>good point
04:32<Rubidium>don't know; no idea how much work the new payment model's going to be
04:32<Rubidium>but... I guess it ought to use that
04:32<andythenorth>does grf v8 need to consider patch?
04:32<Rubidium>except for NewGRF cargos that didn't request the new default base costs
04:33<Rubidium>andythenorth: do you expect anyone to implement it in ttdpatch?
04:33<andythenorth>no
04:33<Rubidium>same thought's coming from here ;)
04:33<andythenorth>ottd could be the reference implementation of grf v8
04:33<Rubidium>definitely
04:33<andythenorth>thereby ending years of entertaining discussion :|
04:34<andythenorth>MB would no longer be able to pop up and yell at you guys for doing it wrong
04:34<@Alberth>I have no doubt you'll find other entertaining topics :)
04:34<andythenorth>and you would no longer be able to do things like *break my fricking grf due to being out of spec with TTDP" :\
04:35<@Alberth>huge disadvantages.. :)
04:35<andythenorth>hmm
04:36<andythenorth>there was a whole load of crap with refittable cargos that needed fixing for v8
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04:37<andythenorth>we had a proposal for cargo to be able to determine refitting
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04:37<andythenorth>I also patched a 'can wagon attach' cb which was tested as ok but never shipped :P
04:37<andythenorth>that's probably safe for v7
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04:41<andythenorth>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4437
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05:18<Wolf01>'morning
05:18<@Alberth>moin
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05:36<Pikka>bordig
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05:42*andythenorth wonders
05:42<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22706 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Cleanup: A loop is no loop, if it never iterates.
05:42<andythenorth>is "Middle Gulf" a stupid name for a ship?
05:42<andythenorth>:P
05:42<andythenorth>the USA doesn't name its sea areas interestingly
05:43<frosch123>a Gulf/Golf is a car
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05:45<andythenorth>FISH mostly names ships for sea areas :P
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05:56<andythenorth>should ships be faster?
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06:06<@Alberth>that'd more a NUTS ship
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06:06<andythenorth>can we divert all silly suggestions to NUTS?
06:07<andythenorth>no
06:07<andythenorth>we need another set
06:07<andythenorth>NUTS is *unrealistic*
06:07<@Alberth>duh :)
06:07<andythenorth>we also need the RAGS set
06:07<frosch123>yeah, don't say everything can be done with squirrel
06:07<Rubidium>andythenorth: http://rbijker.net/openttd/payment.ods <- that's the basic algorithmic idea I've got, with some numbers to play with
06:09<andythenorth>Realistic And Gameplay Sucks set :P
06:12<andythenorth>oo
06:12<andythenorth>numbers :)
06:13<andythenorth>looks exciting in a text editor :P
06:13<@Alberth>try a hex editor, it may have nice NFO code :)
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06:14<andythenorth>I should install open office?
06:14<@planetmaker>andythenorth: pages should open it, too
06:14<@planetmaker>err, numbers. whatever
06:15<Rubidium>andythenorth: it is the ISO/IEC 26300:2006 standard for office application files... so any sane office application ought to be able to read it
06:16*andythenorth naturally has insane office applications
06:17<Rubidium>MS Office?
06:17<andythenorth>yup
06:17<andythenorth>I have excel from 2004 and refuse upgrades :P
06:17<Rubidium>then you must not be using the Windows version ;)
06:17<Rubidium>as only with Windows version you have a chance of it being supported
06:18<frosch123>yay, awesome bugs...
06:18<andythenorth>I have apple numbers but it sucks
06:23<@planetmaker>andythenorth: numbers is not good, but sufficient to display that
06:23<dihedral>hello
06:24<andythenorth>planetmaker: mine refuses :P
06:24<andythenorth>I'm installing ooffice
06:24<@planetmaker>too old numbers, eh?
06:24<andythenorth>I'm not upgrading numbers if I can avoid it :P
06:24<andythenorth>I am no big fan of upgrades
06:25<@planetmaker>Rubidium: I'm not 100% sure I understand your table, though
06:25<@planetmaker>andythenorth: there's no reason to upgrade it...
06:25<@planetmaker>it was just part of the package which contains keynotes.
06:25<Rubidium>planetmaker: then I've done a good job ;)
06:25<@planetmaker>And that is IMHO indeed more convenient than Powerpoint
06:26<Rubidium>planetmaker: but what don't you get?
06:26<@planetmaker>the 5 columns starting with base fare, distance fare,...
06:26<andythenorth>oh
06:26<andythenorth>ooffice got better
06:27<andythenorth>mine was from 2007
06:27<andythenorth>it sucked
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06:27<Rubidium>planetmaker: new version; the gray fields are the ones that you can play with.
06:28<Rubidium>the top ones are to 'model' different distances/speeds to check against
06:28<Rubidium>the ones on the left are the 5 variables for the new payment algorithm
06:28<Rubidium>base fare is just that: you get that amount regardless to the distance
06:29<Rubidium>distance fare is what you get regardless of the speed
06:29<andythenorth>so it's equivalent to:
06:29<andythenorth>- lading fee
06:29<andythenorth>- cost per ton mile
06:29<andythenorth>- speed supplement
06:29<@planetmaker>ok, they're fixed numbers then for a given route
06:29<Rubidium>surcharge start and fare are related. if speed > average free * surcharge start: then add the surcharge fare to the distance fare
06:29<@planetmaker>what about the surcharges?
06:30<Rubidium>and the speed fare is a multiplication factor (1+speed_fare * speed) * distance_fare (incl. surcharge)
06:30<andythenorth>do you measure actual speed? or d/t
06:30<Rubidium>d/t from pickup to dropoff
06:33<@planetmaker>Rubidium: what's the speed fare? € = speed * speed_fare ?
06:34<Rubidium>planetmaker: 2:30 < Rubidium> and the speed fare is a multiplication factor (1+speed_fare * speed) * distance_fare (incl. surcharge)
06:34<Rubidium>booh... missed the 1
06:34<@planetmaker>:-)
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06:35<@planetmaker>so actually € = ((1+speed_fare) * speed) * (distance_fare + speed_surcharge_fare*(speed>speed_surchage))
06:36<Rubidium>(1+(speed_fare * speed)) * ...
06:36<@planetmaker>ah
06:36<Rubidium>but yes, that's roughly it
06:36<@planetmaker>thx
06:36<Rubidium>though the speed_surchage = average_speed * surchage_start
06:36<andythenorth>maybe we should chart the numbers
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06:38<Rubidium>maybe the average speed for the surcharge should be per cargo type per vehicle class, so slow coal trains doesn't mean that the pax trains are all very fast (relatively at least)
06:39<@planetmaker>that's a very vague number, Rubidium. Esp. given that newgrfs can do all kind of fancy callback magic
06:40<Rubidium>planetmaker: have you read the massive bit of text in the spreadsheet?
06:40<Rubidium>average speed = running average of distance / duration of previously delivered cargos
06:40<@planetmaker>yes. And forgot again ;-). So only actual vehicles on the map count
06:40<frosch123>sounds like a free market
06:41<frosch123>if the compitioners transport faster than you, you are payd less
06:41<andythenorth>the average speed is a really tricksy idea
06:41<andythenorth>could be genius
06:41<andythenorth>could suck
06:41<Rubidium>yes, and I'd argue on a per company basis as well ;)
06:41<@planetmaker>sorry, Rubidium. But yes, that makes perfect sense
06:41<@planetmaker>why per-company?
06:41<frosch123>Rubidium: per company? sounds like a cheat
06:42<frosch123>build only slow cheap stuff and make the same money?
06:42<@planetmaker>it means I can make as much money with my steam engine in 2000 than my competitor with the TGV
06:42<andythenorth>should be world-average?
06:42<andythenorth>or map-region average :P
06:42<andythenorth>when belugas finishes regions
06:42<Rubidium>so that if a competitor builds a maglev he doesn't get everything with surcharge whereas you 300 km/h ICE trains get no surcharge anymore
06:43<@planetmaker>one maglev won't kill the average
06:43<frosch123>that doesn't make sense, does it?
06:43<@planetmaker>but if he successfully converted everything... then, yes
06:44<@planetmaker>which'd be fine
06:44<frosch123>if noone builds maglev, it is fine for ice to stay the best
06:44<frosch123>but it should not make a difference whether you or someone else builds the first maglev
06:44<Rubidium>it's not about being the first
06:45<andythenorth>does the competitor provide service within n tiles?
06:45<@planetmaker>oh, that makes things too complicated, andythenorth
06:45<andythenorth>if not, you have a local monopoly, so his service is irrelevant :D
06:45<frosch123>i guess you could only take the linkgraph of cargode/ist and add a component for the average speed of a connection
06:46<andythenorth>this would be interesting
06:46<Rubidium>it's about you having a nice passenger network with slow and fast trains. Then the next moron comes along and drops some maglev lines, your network becomes significantly less profitable and the network of the other is extremely profitable (compared to single player)
06:46<andythenorth>just do spot price economy :P
06:46<andythenorth>I nearly worked it out last time it was discussed
06:47<andythenorth>spot price + surcharge on some links
06:47<Rubidium>just like 'we' Dutchies have to pay a surcharge for a 140km/h train, whereas that's more or less the standard in Japan
06:47<andythenorth>my solution depended on town control iirc
06:47<frosch123>sounds like a reason to not do town control :p
06:48<andythenorth>there are many reasons not to do town control
06:48<Rubidium>but when I take the DB to Berlin there's no surcharge, even when it goes way above 140km/h on some stretches
06:48<Rubidium>I would pay extra for the ICE which is even faster
06:48<andythenorth>Rubidium: 'regions' :P
06:48<andythenorth>payment rates are political
06:48<Rubidium>but that shouldn't mean that the Dutch train should be stripped from it's surcharge
06:48<frosch123>Rubidium: yeah, you might be right. the inter-company thing is already done with the station rating
06:48<frosch123>so you will just get less cargo, if there is competition
06:49<andythenorth>but station rating measures vehicle speed and age
06:49<andythenorth>so maglev still rinses everything else
06:49*andythenorth ponders
06:49<frosch123>doing it also with the prices, is overdoing it
06:49<andythenorth>if maglev is so awesome, why don't we have them in RL?
06:49<Rubidium>except that the maglev station would get busy, so the ratings drop... so it evens out a bit over time
06:49<frosch123>[12:49] <andythenorth> but station rating measures vehicle speed and age <- but it does it only locally at the affected stations
06:50<andythenorth>poking at the game is much more interesting than playing the game :)
06:52<Rubidium>in any case, have fun experimenting with some number in the sheet. Got to go now ;)
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06:56<Sc00by22>Is there any branch/tag in the SVN for 1.1.1 that I can compile and also play online, I've tried 1.1 branch and 1.1.1 tag and I've got version mismatch for them both.
06:57<frosch123>the tag shoudl work
06:57<Sc00by22>I tried it, in the title it shows 1.1.1M
06:57<frosch123>then you have local modifications
06:57<frosch123>what does 'svn status' say?
06:58<Sc00by22>TortoiseSVN equiv?
06:59<frosch123>no idea
06:59<Sc00by22>If it helps all I did was a fresh checkout and compile
07:00<andythenorth>anyone want new FISH?
07:00<andythenorth>it's got a few bugs, but I might ship it
07:01<frosch123>is new fish like fresh fish, or more like caviar?
07:01<andythenorth>more like a slightly wider selection of fish
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07:01<frosch123>:p
07:02<Pikka>fish fish fish fish
07:03<Pikka>ghoti
07:04<@planetmaker>sushi?
07:05<Pikka>some unusual ships, hovercraft included
07:05<@planetmaker>andythenorth: fun idea: Give your major FISH release nicknames:
07:06<andythenorth>this one has a catamaran
07:06<andythenorth>and some other stuff
07:06<andythenorth>invent a name :P
07:06<@planetmaker>FISH 1.0.0 "skate"
07:06<andythenorth>it also has some white pixels included at no extra charge
07:06<andythenorth>I can't find the damn things
07:07<@planetmaker>doesn't it tell you?
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07:07<@planetmaker>is it maybe a pixel in the wake?
07:07<andythenorth>probably
07:07<andythenorth>but photoshop should be able to find it
07:07<@planetmaker>colour select plain white and you'll find it
07:08<andythenorth>that's what I figured
07:08*andythenorth -> lunch
07:08<andythenorth>it's in sungei_catamaran.png if you want to look
07:08*Pikka gives the Yak-40 "Yakety Sax" as a takeoff sound
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07:15<Sc00by22>Got it to work frosch, I had to change the version from 1.1.1M to 1.1.1
07:15<@planetmaker>:-) Where do you get your sounds from, Pikka?
07:16<Pikka>here and there. :o not really yakety sax though. :P
07:17<frosch123>Sc00by22: the "M" means modified. so, if you disabled the autodetection and faked the version number, you just disabled the compatibility-checking.
07:17<frosch123>if you encounter desyncs, something critical was modified
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07:18<Sc00by22>I'll see how I go, I'm not using it as a client in the future, just a custom server
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07:22<@planetmaker>lol. That's even worse
07:23<@planetmaker>Because then the people who connect have the problem - and will report it as bug to us while you run a buggy server
07:23<Sc00by22>Do you expect everybody to be shoddy coders?
07:23<@planetmaker>or patched if you want it
07:23<fjunike>hi there. Ive got an "if (!function(para..." AND want to get the Value the the function returns. Easyest way to do this? (NoAI script, Squirrel)
07:23<@planetmaker>Sc00by22: no, of course not. But that's why running a patched server AND faking its revision is a very bad thing
07:24<@planetmaker>As people will assume that OpenTTD is buggy - and not assume that the server owner hacked the server alone
07:24<Sc00by22>Luukland run a patched server, and nobody has had issues
07:24<@planetmaker>you bet
07:24<Sc00by22>I play there a lot and never experienced a single problem
07:24<Hirundo>fjunike: value = function(parameters); <newline> if (!value) ..
07:25<@planetmaker>lucky you
07:25<frosch123>Sc00by22: the question is not whether there is a problem, but what would happen if there is a problem
07:26<fjunike>hirundo: thank a lot :)
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07:26<Sc00by22>I don't expect any problems
07:27<Sc00by22>Most things are server-side anyway
07:27<@planetmaker>uhm, "most"?
07:27<@planetmaker>If you run a custom version - just call it that way.
07:27<Sc00by22>Ok, everything then
07:28<@planetmaker>still, how does "server-side" imply "no problems"?
07:28<Sc00by22>No problems for the client
07:28<Sc00by22>Maybe for me, but that is my problem, which I will avoid
07:28<@planetmaker>you err on that account dramatically
07:30<@planetmaker>The client simulates the very same game. If only one thing in the game progression differs, the client is kicked
07:30<Sc00by22>It's not going to be THAT modified
07:31<Sc00by22>but, I'll just see how it goes
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08:05<Zuu>fjunike: local val = function(parameters);
08:05<Zuu>Oh Hirundo has already responded.
08:06<fjunike>he did :)
08:06<fjunike>zuu: im working on your streettrafic AI
08:07<Zuu>sTHe streettraffic AI is not mine but a fork of my TownCars AI.
08:07<Zuu>the*
08:08<fjunike>ok. your name is listet in GetAuthor so i think it was yours
08:08<Zuu>So unless you are the one who made the streettraffic fork, you will have to fork it again unless you can contact the streettraffic author and get him/her to include your changes in it.
08:10<Zuu>If you provide a patch to TownCars, I might include it there as to not get way too many town car AIs. That said, the current TownCars code could benefit from scraping some code in favor for using code in SuperLib.
08:12<fjunike>i just try to let the ai park some cars
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08:16<Zuu>Parking (stoping) the cars randomly is probably not too hard. The harder part is to make sure you don't block any streets by parknig cars on both sides of the street.
08:17<Zuu>The later is not impossible to do, but will require some more work and understanding.
08:17<fjunike>right
08:17<fjunike>i try to count the vehicles on tile
08:18<fjunike>an on the tiles around
08:18<fjunike>max 1 vehicle on 3x3
08:19<Zuu>that should work as long as the vehicles aren't articulated with several wagons.
08:20<Zuu>Something you can probably assume that they aren't.
08:20<Zuu>You can see in the engine selection if articulated engines (cars) are filtered out.
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08:22<fjunike>thanks for thi hint first time i try only with generic town cars so there are no articulated vehicles because the AI is only allowd to build vahicles with 0 price and 0 kosts
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>hm... the tables at http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Vehicles/Trains#Running_cost_base_.280E.29_and_factor_.280D.29 don't seem to be very accurate, where is the real calculation?
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08:34<krinn>hi
08:34<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, the difficulty plays a role somewhere iirc
08:35<krinn>is there an option to disable terraforming for ai or i'll be safe ?
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>hm... can't change the difficulty level ingame...
08:36<@planetmaker>krinn, there's not. I'm not sure whether the general terraform limits applicable to players also is valid for them
08:36<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, play with custom. Then you can change things
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: no
08:36<krinn>the high/low build near corner maps limits ?
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: most of the settings are disabled after game start
08:36<@planetmaker>krinn, no, rather the how many tiles per N frames
08:37<@planetmaker>search your config file for *burst*
08:37<krinn>it's hardcode in game?
08:37<krinn>ok
08:37<@planetmaker>it's a setting, for both clear and terraform
08:37<@planetmaker>both as burst and withing 64k ticks or so
08:38<krinn>terraform_frame_burst = 4096
08:38<krinn>this allow 4096 tiles / frame ?
08:38<krinn>to be terraform
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but actually i wanted the code piece that does the calculation.
08:39<@planetmaker>krinn, yes. But no idea whether it's applicable to AIs.
08:39<krinn>planetmaker, would you say Sleep(1) per tile change is enought to stay safe?
08:39<@planetmaker>it's basically meant to stop map-wide terraform by grievers...
08:39<fjunike>eddizuhause: gibts anscheinend doch ein paar deutsche ottd coder :)
08:40<@planetmaker>fjunike, yes, they exist. But this channel is English only ;-)
08:40<andythenorth>FISH is shipped
08:40<andythenorth>4 new boats
08:40<andythenorth>couple of them adjust gameplay quite a bit
08:40<fjunike>i know planetmaker ;)
08:42<andythenorth>V453000: congratulations
08:42<andythenorth>the NUTS set has already been criticised on grounds of reality
08:42<andythenorth>:)
08:43<andythenorth>"you can't includes this vehicle because it's unrealistic" :P
08:43<@planetmaker>:-D
08:45<fjunike>is there an AIGroup.GetNum to count ALL vehicles in a group?
08:47<krinn>i do as AIVehicle_ListGroup()
08:47<krinn>then blah.Count()
08:47<fjunike>ok thanx
08:48<krinn>look at the real function name might be AIVehicleGroupList() :)
08:50<fjunike>there is an AIVehicleList_Group(id)
08:50<krinn>yeah that one so, just use .Count() and you'll get # vehicle in it
08:52<andythenorth>what counts as unrealistic in an unrealistic set?
08:52<andythenorth>the set must have some form of reality, or it couldn't be manifest
08:52<andythenorth>anyway, ti seems forums are short on irony :P
08:52<andythenorth>ti / it /s
08:53<krinn>the real problem with "reality guys", is that it's not reality as in life even, it's their reality :p
08:53<andythenorth>and here we have a central problem in western philosophy :)
08:53<andythenorth>what is the world?
08:53<andythenorth>how do we know?
08:53<andythenorth>and what should we do about it?
08:54<andythenorth>is basically all philosophy summed up
08:54<krinn>it's easy if your french: in doubt, just complain
08:54<andythenorth>I prefer french philosophy
08:54<andythenorth>it's wittier
08:55<andythenorth>new FISH has already had 1/1000th of it's maximum downloads
08:56*andythenorth should go do something else
08:56<andythenorth>:P
08:56<andythenorth>bye
08:56<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, if you still look for it: engine.cpp
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08:57<Eddi|zuHause>Engine::GetCost()?
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08:58<@planetmaker>yes. Which then points to economy.cpp GetPrice
08:59<frosch123>hmm, thouse tables in the wiki should use £
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>right, that's what i found
09:04<@planetmaker>from vehicles GetCost it gets a shift of -8 which makes a base_cost_exponent of 8 the neutral one
09:05<@planetmaker>thus cost = base_cost_value * cost * 2**(base_cost - 8) the resulting cost
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>hm... www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/economy_replace_shift.diff
09:11<frosch123>better add that 2 resp 3 to 'shift'
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>why?
09:13<frosch123>less rounding
09:13<frosch123>divide only once
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09:15<krinn>shifting instead of / per 4 or 8 would be faster for the cpu
09:16<krinn>div cycles are always higher in all cpu than shifting
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: that is true, but every modern compiler will optimize that for you
09:17<krinn>but i suppose the compiler would catch that and change it
09:17<krinn>just say it too ^^
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: so this change is purely for readability
09:17<krinn>better add a comment, dunno with what compiler one is going to build it
09:18<krinn>also many user can alter compiler choice gcc with -O0 = you won't get that effect i'm sure
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: like this? it kinda defeats the point... www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/economy_replace_shift_2.diff
09:18<@planetmaker>krinn, the amount of self-compilers is probably negligible in the overall context
09:18<@Alberth>krinn: if you use -O0, you are not interested in speed of the program
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: err, i think the + must be a -
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09:19<krinn>nope Alberth, i'm interrest maybe in stability, less optimization less chance to a faulty optimize
09:20<krinn>and that was gcc option, maybe some other compiler doesn't have the option at all
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: you are not going to play a game in such an environment...
09:20<@Alberth>krinn: then code directly in machine language, surely that's the most stable environment :p
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: by default, only debug builds will use the -O0 parameter
09:20<krinn>some people use emulators... this kind of / won't help them
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09:21<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/multiplierrounding.diff <- Eddi|zuHause: i meant like taht
09:21<krinn>don't get it wrong, i won't build it -O0 :)
09:21<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: and not even that, default still optimizes variables away
09:21<krinn>just that i think a "// div 4" would be better than "/4"
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i still think this is wrong...
09:23<krinn>pov, but you're the coder here, so your choice prevail
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09:25<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: you mean newgrf authors will complain when the costs of their vehicles change slightly? :p
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: no, i mean it does defeat the point of making the formula more readable
09:27<frosch123>making a formula nice and minimizing computational errors it not the same :)
09:27<frosch123>you can only argue, that computational error does not matter if there is inflation
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09:29<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: how about this? www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/economy_replace_shift_3.diff
09:31<frosch123>also an interesting option
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>introduces a multiplication for the medium case...
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10:13<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22707 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Codechange: Simplify applying the difficulty settings to prices, and reduce computational errors. (Eddi)
10:14<@planetmaker>apropops wiki, Pikka: your newgrf wiki link in your signature is outdated ;-)
10:15<Pikka>true, true
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10:18*planetmaker wonders whether Pikka never sleeps, though ;-)
10:19<Pikka>at times!
10:19<@planetmaker>:-)
10:19<@planetmaker>I'd have bet on something like past 2 am?
10:19<@planetmaker>But... probably I'm wrong
10:19<Pikka>it's only 12
10:19-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
10:20<Pikka>and I'm still on holiday until wednesday, so it's allowed!
10:20<@planetmaker>ha! Good for you :-)
10:20<Pikka>(and I'll be on twilights this week anyway, don't start work until 11 or 12)
10:20<Pikka>(so no need to get up early :))
10:20<@planetmaker>also good - as it seems to not be the early twilight ;-)
10:21<Pikka>:) it is a strange name for a shift, granted
10:22<@planetmaker>well, I find it not that bad - but if it starts at noon... then it's odd ;-)
10:22<Pikka>at my workplace "earlies" start between 4 and 7, "twilights" between 10 and 12, and "lates" between 2 and 4
10:23<Pikka>and I do twilights and earlies in alternate weeks
10:23<@planetmaker>ah. But 4am is rather early... *shudder*
10:24<Pikka>yep.. good fun, especially in winter :)
10:24<Pikka>there's also broken shifts which typically work 7-12 then 3-8, but I don't do those any more :)
10:25<Pikka>at least with the 4am starts you're done working by 1 or 2. :)
10:26<Pikka>broken shifts pay more, you get paid half-rate for the break in the middle. but it's a longggg day. I'd rather earn more by working weekends.
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of work is this, anyway?
10:30<@Alberth>staying awake at weird hours :)
10:33<@planetmaker>:-)
10:33<Pikka>that too
10:33<Pikka>but also bus driving
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>ah... that must be an annoyingly boring job...
10:35<Pikka>well, it's not as bad driving for BT as it is for the private operators. Most private operators have one driver doing one route, all day every day
10:35<Pikka>I get to do different stuff every day. if you like people, driving, and watching people do stupid things in traffic, it's not so bad.
10:37<Pikka>also, for those with an interest in how transport systems work, it's a nice inside perspective. :P
10:37<Pikka>but yes, I'll definitely be looking to get some expanded duties and a bit more variety in my work once I finish my traineeship.
10:43<@planetmaker>hm, where's andy when one needs him?
10:43<Pikka>lunch
10:44<@planetmaker>at 15:44h? ;-)
10:45<Pikka>why not?
10:46<@planetmaker>food after 15h is in my category tea time or dinner ;-)
10:48<@planetmaker>but probably his baby keeps demanding more and he still didn't finish himself ;-)
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10:52<fjunike>is there an integer division Squirrel
10:59<frosch123>does (1 / 2).tointeger() work?
11:04<fjunike>looks good :)
11:04<fjunike>thx
11:06<Zuu>Dividing one integer with another integer gives an integer in Squirrel as in most languages.
11:06<Zuu>The only exception I know is Delphi, where a division always cause a float.
11:06<fjunike>var / 100 * var2 isnt not everytime a int ;)
11:06<frosch123>delphi has a separate operator :)
11:07<fjunike>is not *gg
11:07<Zuu>(var / 100) => int value, that is then multiplied with var2.
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>i kinda like the "separate" operator idea... i really wonder why it hasn't propagated to more languages than just pascal...
11:08<Zuu>(if both var and var2 are ints)
11:08<@Alberth>Zuu: python 3 too
11:08<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: it makes no sense with operator overloading
11:08<frosch123>it only makes sense for natural numbers
11:09<Zuu>Alberth: Thanks, good to know.
11:09<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: pascal was earlier than delphi :)
11:09<frosch123>though you can say the same for modulo
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: delphi is an "advanced" pascal
11:10<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, so "propagated to" did not happen
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i should have said "pascal-derivates"
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11:10<frosch123>hmm, does uml know operators?
11:10<@Alberth>java doesn't, I think
11:11<frosch123>(uml uses pascal syntax)
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11:12<@Alberth>oh, I only know about uml in java context
11:12<krinn>later all
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11:12<@Alberth>ie the eclipse EMF
11:13<@Alberth>no, that's not right, uml is not part of EMF
11:13*andythenorth ponders
11:13<frosch123>i guess if you attach uml to a specific language, it will refrain from using a syntax of another language
11:13<@planetmaker>oh, hi andythenorth
11:13<frosch123>but language-independent uml uses pascal syntax
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>i have never seen a real-world application of UML
11:14<@Alberth>eclipse is supposed to be language-agnostic, but practically, it does mainly java
11:14<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: you can draw nice class diagrams in it
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11:15<andythenorth>I have seen a system for creating cms modules using uml only, no html or python
11:15<andythenorth>nobody uses it :P
11:15<andythenorth>http://plone.org/products/archgenxml
11:15<@Alberth>and with EMF, generate class code from it
11:15<andythenorth>I had an idea
11:15<andythenorth>it may be brilliant
11:15<andythenorth>or not
11:16<@Alberth>andythenorth: yeah, people try to use it for everything, no matter whether it is useful for that purpose
11:16<andythenorth>is there a limit to the size of the buy menu text box?
11:16<frosch123>andythenorth: yes, the screen size
11:16<andythenorth>awesome
11:16<andythenorth>I might implement 'readme' vehicles in HEQS and FISH
11:16<frosch123>well, and the number of characters
11:17<@Alberth>not if your display is 320x240 :)
11:17<andythenorth>and a 'readme' industry in FIRS
11:17<frosch123>same 512 bytes as everywhere else
11:17<frosch123>or whatever number
11:17<frosch123>and there is a 64kB limit for pseudo sprites :p
11:17<@Alberth>weird length, I'd expect 254 or so :)
11:18<@planetmaker>andythenorth, ... different industries use different cluster count, eh?
11:18<andythenorth>yes
11:19<andythenorth>nothing simple about FIRS :P
11:19<frosch123>hmm, DRAW_STRING_BUFFER is 2048 though
11:19<@Alberth>but we draw also other stuff than just newgrf strings
11:19<@Alberth>eg console output
11:21<andythenorth>'readme' vehicles would solve quite a bit
11:21<@planetmaker>oh, please don't :-)
11:22<@planetmaker>better kick LordAro's ass to finish the readme viewer
11:22<andythenorth>"the solution is newgrf!"
11:22<frosch123>we need a special stringcode to hyperlink from any grftext into the readme :p
11:22<andythenorth>what readme :P
11:23<andythenorth>also - I thought to be able to preview the buy menu when using newgrf panel
11:23<andythenorth>I can't be the first to think that
11:23<fjunike>#( i alway get 0 by my math oberation var / 100 * var2 (0 = 72 / 100 * 5) so the vars a filld with numbers
11:24<frosch123>andythenorth: that is listed on the grftopia page
11:25<andythenorth>I must have read it there already then
11:27<Sacro_>I'm not impressed wiht the bbc
11:27<Sacro_>and if they get rid of the f1 then I won't buy a licence next year
11:27<andythenorth>ask for your money back
11:27<Sacro_>I can watch f1 and top gear delayed
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11:32<fjunike>very nice! a / 100 * b dont work, a * b / 100 works #(
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11:34<Eddi|zuHause>fjunike: well, obviously 72/100 is 0 in integer-math
11:36<fjunike>i dont like scriptlang where a can't say my var is a int or a string or ... :(
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11:46<Eddi|zuHause>soo... now we only need a list of realistic prices for all engines...
11:47<frosch123>realistic?
11:47<frosch123>really?
11:49<frosch123>maybe just assign price categories to them: cheap, medium, expensiv
11:49<frosch123>and the do the rest with formulas from the stats, year and the category
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12:21<Zuu>Oo, AdmiralAI has built a museum tramway :-p
12:22<Zuu>It goes around a block and has one station.
12:22<@Alberth>I have seen such routes before with an AI :)
12:22<@Alberth>except it tried to get & drop from the same station iirc :)
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12:45<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Want to playtest/tune something for me? :p
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>depends ;)
12:45<+michi_cc>http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/infra_maint.patch
12:46<+michi_cc>Needs proper base costs and cost factors
12:47<+michi_cc>And maybe some kind of power law for the costs instead of linear, but I don't want to bankrupt everybody :)
12:47<Zuu>looks interesting
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>that's a large patch
12:49<Zuu>myself, I've managed to sequently reproduce a strange crash in QUeue.FibonacciHeap2. I fear it could be my computer that has a memory issue. At least I'm going to try with another computer or maby also with last nightly and not only 1.1.2-RC2.
12:53<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/openttd.git/shortlog/refs/heads/maint
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>how fast do you want results?
12:56<+michi_cc>Whatever suits you. I'm not out of work after that patch :)
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12:58<@planetmaker>michi_cc: I'd make the cost multiplier an enum instead of magic numbers
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12:58<@planetmaker>+ return (_price[PR_INFRASTRUCTURE_ROAD] * (roadtype == ROADTYPE_TRAM ? 8 : 6)) >> 3;
12:59<@planetmaker>same as for rail, I think
13:00<+michi_cc>Nothing in the default railtype defs has an enum though.
13:01<@planetmaker>well... no reason for further magic numbers ;-)
13:01<@planetmaker>I mainly meant roadtypes, though
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13:04<+michi_cc>Let's find playable values first... I never play with the default vehicles, which makes balancing the costs to them hard
13:05<@planetmaker>:-)
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13:22<Eddi|zuHause>something is wrong, X/KDE doesn't react on mouse clicks anymore...
13:25<@Alberth>your remote X server disconnected? :p
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>it worked again after i closed a few programs
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>it reacted on keyboard, and the mouse cursor moved, just no mouse events were captured
13:33<@planetmaker>did your cat unplug it?
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>no cat, no cables :p
13:34<@planetmaker>no batteries?
13:34<andythenorth>sun spots
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>then the mouse cursor wouldn't move
13:34<andythenorth>what's going in the next version of FISH?
13:34<andythenorth>oh
13:34<andythenorth>I have to decide that :P
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13:36<@planetmaker>andythenorth, whale hunter, rainbow warrior, Aida. ;-)
13:36<@planetmaker>but they all make for better disaster vehicles...
13:36<andythenorth>whaling grounds?
13:36<@planetmaker>yeah. New FIRS industry
13:36<andythenorth>nuclear test site industry?
13:36<@planetmaker>also
13:36<andythenorth>hmm
13:37<@planetmaker>waste dump at sea might be interesting, too
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>Mururoa!
13:37<@planetmaker>accepts chemicals and waste
13:37<andythenorth>recyclables -> ocean
13:38<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_Garbage_Patch
13:38<@planetmaker>:-)
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>"Too Much Realism" (TMR) :p
13:39<@planetmaker>that's a good industry and cargo
13:39<@planetmaker>Realism generator. Cargo "realism". And "realism dump site"
13:39<@Alberth>(19:38:24) andythenorth: nuclear test site industry? <-- NUclear Test Site
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>that name is taken, i fear :p
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13:40<andythenorth>he hasn't shipped yet
13:40<andythenorth>I could gazump him
13:41<andythenorth>can anyone replicate this?
13:41<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2321
13:41<andythenorth>and/or fix it?
13:41<andythenorth>might not be my error
13:41<andythenorth>might be ottd missing a bit of code
13:41<@Alberth>lol
13:41<@planetmaker>andythenorth, you can check that afaik
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>i never play with breakdowns
13:42<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: boring
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>yes, breakdowns are boring
13:42<@planetmaker>breakdowns are boring ;-)
13:42<@planetmaker>smoking horses... nicotine addiction at its best :-D
13:43<@planetmaker>"sorry, we need a smoking pause" ;-)
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>"Sag mal, raucht dein Pferd?" - "Nein." - "Na dann brennt dein Stall."
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13:44<LordAro>evenings
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13:47<@planetmaker>andythenorth, you want to check possibly variable CB for 'broken' or B4 for 'current_speed'
13:47<@planetmaker>hello LordAro
13:48<LordAro>hi planetmaker
13:48<andythenorth>I check B4 iirc
13:48<@planetmaker>it's some magic necessary with that variable
13:48<@planetmaker>I don't understand the NML implementation, but it's not a plain return of it
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>i suspect it's an openttd bug
13:49<@planetmaker>@base 16 10 23C3
13:49<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 9155
13:49<@planetmaker>hm, whatever
13:51<andythenorth>someone reported a problem with FIRS using var 7E
13:51<@planetmaker>yes, H1rundo did
13:51*andythenorth digs up a ticket
13:51<andythenorth>oh
13:52<andythenorth>so advanced layouts don't work in nfo
13:52<andythenorth>but 7E doesn't work in nml :P
13:52<andythenorth>ho ho
13:52<andythenorth>that piece of code using 7E was one of the reasons we're migrating to nml :D
13:52<LordAro>Alberth: lines 255-259 here: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/394/ <-- result in this lovely little lot: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/393/
13:52<andythenorth>how interestink
13:53<@planetmaker>:-D
13:53<@planetmaker>what does that piece of code do?
13:55<LordAro>planetmaker: me? should remove tabs and CR's
13:55<@planetmaker>sorry, I meant andy ;-)
13:56<@Alberth>nice error :p
13:56<LordAro>:oops:
13:56<LordAro>:)
13:56<andythenorth>planetmaker: it makes use of advanced layouts
13:57<@planetmaker>anything more specific?
13:57<andythenorth>to provide climate dependent ground tiles iirc
13:57<andythenorth>I got it from frosch more or less
13:57<@planetmaker>layouts with parameter do work...
13:57<andythenorth>so nml can provide this without 7E?
13:58<@planetmaker>Honestly, I don't really know
13:58<andythenorth>this could be done without 7E, but only in an ugly way
13:58<@planetmaker>dunno :-)
13:59<andythenorth>meantime it can be replaced
13:59<@Alberth>LordAro: I see you do "*readme_text++ = *src;" what do you think happens with the readme_text pointer there?
14:00<@Alberth>note it is a short hand notation for "*readme_text = *src; readme_text++;"
14:00<LordAro>something bad, i suspect :) i don't really know what's going on with that bit of code (i got cut off yesterday before i had a chance to ask)
14:02<@Alberth>the pointer gets incremented, which means you are loosing the starting point of the text
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14:03<@Alberth>as well as with free(this->readme_text) where you return a pointer different from the one you received from malloc (which I suspect is the cuase of your error)
14:03<andythenorth>it's not required to use that 7E code at the moment
14:03<@Alberth>andythenorth: submit a bug for NML
14:03<@planetmaker>it's known, Alberth ;-)
14:04<@planetmaker>The hint came from Hirundo himself
14:04<andythenorth>should probably just use whatever was in 0.6.5
14:05<@Alberth>LordAro: can you give me the documentation patch? I'll finish it a bit, and commit it
14:05<@Alberth>tomorrow, most likely
14:06<LordAro>cool :) i'll just go and grab it
14:06<@Alberth>LordAro: in short, don't change readme_text, make a new pointer, and use that instead char *dest = this->readme_text; .... *dest++ = *src
14:09<LordAro>ah, ok :) i got rid of char *dest because i thought it wasn't needed :)
14:10<LordAro>you know, it was inefficent because all you were doing was copying it from then to readme_text
14:10<LordAro>patch: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/395/
14:11<@Alberth>no worries, you still have to split on \n, that will cause some more changes :p
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: i have a fundamental problem with your patch. i cannot play without destinations anymore... :p
14:13<@Alberth>thanks for the patch
14:13<LordAro>yes :) still not sure about how to do that
14:13<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: that is normal
14:16<@Alberth>LordAro: Basically, instead of one long string that you dump into DrawMultiBlahBlahString(), you need to make a list of lines, and DrawString() each line separately
14:16<@Alberth>I am not sure whether wrapping of lines is needed, I'd say try it without first, and see whether that works good enough
14:17<LordAro>but how would i split the 'big char' into 'little char'(s)? i obviously can't do readme_text1, readme_text2... :)
14:18<@Alberth>the first line is of course at readme_txt, the second line starts at the first character after \n of the first line, etc.
14:18<@Alberth>The usual approach is to use a SmallVector to create as many line-start's as you need.
14:20<@Alberth>as a first step, do char *lines[100]; that gives you lines[0], lines[1], lines[2], ... lines[99], which is almost the same as readme_text1, readme_text2..., readme_text100 :)
14:20<@Alberth>and if you think 100 is not enough, add a few zeroes :)
14:22<@Alberth>also make a 'int num_lines;'. That integer keeps track of the first unused line[]
14:24<@Alberth>this is too much perhaps.
14:24<@Alberth>first make sure the program runs again :)
14:25<andythenorth> hmm
14:25<andythenorth>how do other people test?
14:25<@Alberth>then do another for-loop, and print something each time you are at the first character after a \n
14:25<LordAro>SmallVector?
14:25<andythenorth>depending on what language / framework I'm using, I compile for pretty much every LOC I add, or a complete statement / function if LOC won't work alone
14:25<andythenorth>is that overkill :o
14:26<@Alberth>I can code for weeks without compile :p
14:26<andythenorth>omg
14:26<@Alberth>LordAro: forget SmallVector for now, too complicated at this time
14:26<andythenorth>I guess if you have good debug tools it's fine
14:26<andythenorth>I cut my teeth in coding environments without debug tools
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>that's the time where your entire code is consisting of development documentation, not actual code :p
14:27<@Alberth>usually, I have to write a *lot* of relatively simple code before I can run anything
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>that's why i prefer taking existing code, and adding a few lines
14:28<@Alberth>my Python code is more docs than code :)
14:28<andythenorth>that's fine
14:28<andythenorth>define interface doc strings first
14:28<andythenorth>then have them return 'hello' or something :P
14:28<andythenorth>then write actual code
14:28<andythenorth>I wrote a lot of flash games
14:29<andythenorth>changing too much at once is bad for multiple reasons
14:29<@Alberth>andythenorth: but if possible, I take a simple example problem, and write from start to end, trying to run the program after each step
14:30<andythenorth>I write pages and pages of html without thinking
14:30<@Alberth>there is a BIG difference between writing new code from scratch and changing existing code. The latter is often more difficult
14:30<andythenorth>but every time I have to do js, I have to go literally adding one operator at a time
14:30<andythenorth>to see what I broke :P
14:30<@Alberth>the <..> tags of html drive me crazy :p
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what firs rev is the last "running properly" version?
14:31<andythenorth>rev?
14:31<andythenorth>dunno
14:31<andythenorth>let me check
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>and there's some stray head in your repo
14:31<andythenorth>yay
14:31<LordAro>[19:20:06] <@Alberth> as a first step, do char *lines[100]; that gives you lines[0], lines[1], lines[2], ... lines[99], which is almost the same as readme_text1, readme_text2..., readme_text100 :) <-- do you not mean char **lines[100]... ? or have i got completely the wrong idea about what that is :)
14:31<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: likely 2102 unless I screwed up
14:32<@planetmaker>LordAro, there's a SmallVector type within OpenTTD
14:32<@planetmaker>Make use of that
14:32<@Alberth>planetmaker: I just told him not to :)
14:32<@Alberth>but feel free to explain :)
14:32<@planetmaker>oh. I thought you did :-)
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: my local revision numbers are probably not aligned with yours
14:33<@Alberth>LordAro: int i is a in integer. int x[100] are 100 integers. char *readme_text is a character pointer. char *lines[100] are 100 such pointers
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you have the hash of that commit?
14:33<andythenorth>here: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions?page=2
14:33<andythenorth>feel free to try others around that point
14:34<@Alberth>LordAro: char **lines[100] are 100 pointers to pointers to characters :)
14:34<LordAro>:O :) do you ever realisticly need to use that?
14:35<@Alberth>LordAro: 'int i' is a integer, int *p is a pointer to integer, int **q is a pointer to a pointer to integer (is a pointer to a 'p' thus)
14:35<@Alberth>LordAro: oh yes, some times you need it.
14:36<LordAro>(i almost don't want to know the answer) e.g.? :)
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14:38<@Alberth>if you want to return a pointer value through a parameter. (which probably means nothing to you now, but I don't know a better example :( )
14:39<@Alberth>int i = 100; int *p = &i; *p = 200; do you understand what this code does?
14:40<@planetmaker>http://hg.openttdcoop.org/firs/graph/2233?revcount=960 <-- hehe. Interesting graph
14:40<@planetmaker>Time and again a merge was needed when I committed translations - while andy committed concurrently some other stuff
14:41<LordAro>Alberth: makes 'i' = 200 ?
14:41<frosch123>IndustrySpec **&industryspec = (*file)->industryspec; <- **& is quite common in ottd
14:41<@Alberth>LordAro: indeed.
14:42<andythenorth>planetmaker "pull before commit" :P
14:42<andythenorth>but which of us was at fault :P
14:42<@Alberth>now what I just did with integers, you can also do with pointers
14:43<LordAro>sounds fun :)
14:43<@Alberth>int i = 100; j = 100; int *p = &i; int **q = &p; *q = &j;
14:44<@planetmaker>andythenorth, time progression shows that your commits were later ;-)
14:44<andythenorth>ha
14:44<andythenorth>I am not good at vcs discipline
14:44<andythenorth>I am good at drawing sprites (opinions may vary)
14:45<@Alberth>here p is what i was in the previous example, and *q is what *p was in the previous example
14:45<@Alberth>(sorry about the confusing names :p )
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: not sure if that is still current, but in german town names 0.1.0 i just got a name "GroßBraunburg", something isn't right there
14:46<@Alberth>LordAro: and of course, you can also do the same with int ***, int ****, etc :p (but I never did that)
14:46*LordAro hides :)
14:47<@Alberth>I always make drawings when doing pointers, otherwise I get lost :)
14:47<@planetmaker>The missing space?
14:47<@planetmaker>I *think* I fixed something like that
14:47<@planetmaker>But... who knows, if I don't know?
14:47<@Alberth>hg
14:48<@planetmaker>maybe :-)
14:48<@Alberth>the issie tracker perhaps
14:48<@planetmaker>"Fix: Some automatic town prefix were missing spaces. Real town names had too many spaces" sounds like
14:48<@Alberth>*issue
14:48<@Alberth>hg log -k space :)
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>and in Pikka's TaI houses the houses change direction if you build a tram stop...
14:49<@planetmaker>:-D
14:52<LordAro>g2g thanks again for your help Alberth :)
14:53<@Alberth>ok, good luck with the lines epxerimenting
14:53<@Alberth>bye
14:53<LordAro>will do :) lots of compiling, error, fix error, compile again will occur :)
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15:01<andythenorth>is it possible that industry fund cursor could highlight for valid places to place industry?
15:02<andythenorth>possibly by running a pre-flight check on the cb28 and cb22 for each layout?
15:02<@planetmaker>that'd run A LOT of checks
15:02<andythenorth>I guess if cb28 uses an expensive var like 65(?) it would be very bad
15:02<@planetmaker>n*m*l with n*m = map size and l = number layouts
15:03<andythenorth>it would only highlight for the current tile the cursor is on
15:03<@planetmaker>which is... 12 million callbacks for a large map and 3 layouts
15:03<andythenorth>it wouldn't need to show every valid location, just whether current tile is a valid n tile for any of the layouts
15:04<frosch123>andythenorth: you could check it when moving the cursor over the screen
15:04<frosch123>highlighing all positions makes no sense
15:04<@planetmaker>That's possible
15:04<frosch123>but you would have to specify what to do for multiple layouts
15:04<frosch123>show the first one, show the union of all, ...
15:05<frosch123>well, and you need to extent the highlighting code for irregular highlights :p
15:05<@planetmaker>:-D
15:05<@planetmaker>damn, yes
15:05<andythenorth>show the first valid layout
15:05<andythenorth>and don't show the actual tile layouts, just whether it's a valid n tile
15:06<andythenorth>bridges do something similar now
15:06<andythenorth>?
15:06<@planetmaker>showing the final layout after building is much more useful
15:06<@planetmaker>especially given the building issue with e.g. FIRS harbours
15:07<andythenorth>true
15:07<andythenorth>it's nice-to-have, not essential
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15:14<Eddi|zuHause>take the maximum X/Y extent over all layouts, and then mark an area of that size
15:17<@planetmaker>that might be much easier, yes
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>that's the "85% accurate" solution
15:20<frosch123>yeah, sounds reasonable
15:20<@planetmaker>I'm not sure whether the layout is then already decided or not, so yes
15:20<frosch123>you can then still mark it red or white
15:20<frosch123>planetmaker: the layout is only decided when you click :p
15:20<frosch123>the server does that
15:21<@planetmaker>then it's even a 100% accurate decision ;-)
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>not sure on what data you want to decide red or white...
15:24<@planetmaker>white: ok. Red not ok ;-)
15:24<frosch123>whether the industry can be placed (assuming that the industry decided that using only determniistic stuff)
15:24<frosch123>i.e. no random bits
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Vilsbach%20Transport,%2030.%20Jul%201922.png <-- the railtypes in the maintenance window should probably be sorted the same way as in the construction dropdown. and i'd make extra categories for bridges, stations, etc.
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15:26<Eddi|zuHause>and some indication on what the actual maintenance cost per month/year are
15:27<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: You need to enable the advanced setting, the you'll see the cost as well :p
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>ah
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>ok
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>the railtypes seem to have 0 maintenance cost...
15:28<+michi_cc>And yes, the sorting could be better, I was just too lazy to do it for now
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>is that cost per month?
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't say anywhere ;)
15:30<andythenorth>hmm
15:30<+michi_cc>Hmm, NewGRF defined railtypes should get the cost of the plain rail
15:30*andythenorth ponders
15:30<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you requested a forklift for HEQS
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes
15:30<+michi_cc>Yes, it is per month. Suggestions for a better GUI layout welcome.
15:30<andythenorth>I considered refittable capacities for it
15:30<andythenorth>I think that probably sucks though
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>nah, just 1 of anything...
15:31<andythenorth>not pax :P
15:31<@planetmaker>1 l of oil
15:31<@planetmaker>not pax? :-(
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15:31<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: 1 oil is 1000l
15:31<@planetmaker>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm4Q4vWy_ck
15:32<andythenorth>a 1t forklift is weeny
15:32<andythenorth>:P
15:32<@planetmaker>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPpwLCvPAME&feature=related <-- in English
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the game unfortunately doesn't model smaller amounts :p
15:33<andythenorth>I could fake it
15:33<andythenorth>just transpose the cargo suffixes :P
15:33<andythenorth>1 quarter-ton :P
15:33<andythenorth>all the physics would be broken
15:33<andythenorth>and every vehicle set would be odd
15:33<andythenorth>but if it helps...I'll do it :P
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it was really just meant for driving back and forth to keep the station rating up...
15:34<andythenorth>I recal
15:34<andythenorth>l
15:34<andythenorth>I'm supporting bad behaviour with this vehicle :P
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's really because nobody has a clue how to use callback 145 :p
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15:37<andythenorth>hmm
15:37<andythenorth>forklifts go quite fast
15:37<andythenorth>like 20km/h or so
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15:44<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like an appropriate speed to me
15:44<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I have 7 out of 8 angles for a forklift from ISR
15:44<andythenorth>and the other is not hard
15:44<andythenorth>so I'll add it ;)
15:44<andythenorth>the sprites are more like a 12t forklift than 1t
15:44<andythenorth>but meh
15:45<andythenorth>I also have some angles of a smaller forklift, but it's only about 8px long
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>"distance between source and destination, in (dx+dy)/2" <-- who came up with that metric?
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>ah. maximum value on a 256^2 map
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16:06<@planetmaker>d = (x**2 + y**2)**0.5 = 0.5*(2*0)/(0**2+y**2)*x
16:06<@planetmaker>ehm... wrong channel
16:10<krinn>it was for the channel "#write0buthideitincomplexformula ?
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>we spent weeks with that kind of thing :p
16:12<@planetmaker>it was for the channel pm@idl>
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16:12<@planetmaker>"channel"
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16:38<frosch123>night
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16:40*Zuu thinks the NoAI api could mention the fact that DTRS will not remember the front tile you give it. Instead internally DTRS exist in only two directions. So when you ask to get the front tile of a DTRS, it may or may not be the tile you told that the front tile should be when you built it.
16:41<Zuu>So each time you need to look on both "front" and "back" tile and try to figure out which one is the real front tile.
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16:45*Zuu sees a new SuperLib function being created in his head
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16:46*krinn wonder what is DTRS
16:46<Zuu>DriveTroughRoadStop
16:47*krinn hates DTRS, roads jammer
16:47<Zuu>Depends where and how you build them.
16:47<Zuu>But they do need more care than just droping them in the middle of a town.
16:48<Zuu>On the upside, they allow usage of articulated vehicles and trams.
16:49<Zuu>Trams, thoguh are very easy to sabotage.
16:49-!-DOUK [~KEM@78.166.118.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:49<__ln__>http://www.businessinsider.com/bill-gates-now-has-more-money-than-the-federal-government-2011-7
16:49<krinn>__ln__ apple too
16:50<krinn>Zuu, it's the concept, having a vehcile wait on a road can only do jam
16:50<krinn>except at end of road, and i hardly believe one check that before building it
16:50<Zuu>Sure one can do.
16:50<krinn>do they?
16:50<Zuu>And one can enforce that it will stay that way as well.
16:51<Zuu>AITile.IsRoadTile or similar.
16:51<Zuu>Is a very basic version.
16:51<Zuu>There is also the API call that checks if two tiles are interconnected with each other.
16:52<Zuu>a function that interesting enough, did not exist when NoAI started. So back then you had to trust that tiles in towns were interconnected and build your own roads between towns to be sure that they were connected. :-D
16:52<krinn>yep, but if none take care to check the road is a dead end before using the DTRS.... jam
16:53<Zuu>As from what I've seen AIAI solves it quite good.
16:53<krinn>the problem is that only 1 vehicle is need to jam a town
16:54<Zuu>You again assume that you drop the DTRS on _existing_ road and don't build a bypass loop.
16:54<krinn>i solve it quiet good: i don't also DTRS in town in my config :)
16:54<Zuu>thats how I usually config my games too. :-)
16:54<krinn> /s/also/allow
16:55<@planetmaker>not allowing dtrs on town roads imho defies 50% of their usefulness ;-)
16:55*planetmaker has it always on
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>the AIs need to be taught to provide non-blocking DTRS...
16:55<krinn>not allowing them reduce jam by (any value, choose a big one) %
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>also, overtaking needs to be allowed
16:56<krinn>i allow them outside town, because all ai i test show they can handle it with a queue and loop and some orders halfload...
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is, AIs just spam more vehicles
16:57<krinn>but in town, nope, no loop.... only i keep that vehicle loading and if i can't load everyone must wait behind me
16:58<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, yep, this doesn't help too, but they are smart generally, if spam get out, resell them, some are smarter enought to ask the sell when seeing the jam
16:58<krinn>but as long as the DTRS remain, the problem will come back asap
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>DTRS are generally a bad idea in combination with full load
16:59<krinn>lol DTRS are nearly a "don't battle me for my ressource or you'll get stuck with me"
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>but allowing overtake should make many things easier
17:00<andythenorth>bye
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17:00<krinn>overtake ?
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>overtake is when you switch lanes to pass a slower vehicle.
17:01<krinn>that's great, but doesn't work most of the time
17:02<krinn>or you speak about a new thing ?
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>the existing overtake mechanism has some severe limitations, that aren't actually needed most of the time...
17:03<krinn>lol we should have an auto klaxxzon: stuck behind a vehicle for X time -> klaxxon, after 3 rings -> force vehicle in front to move his ass :)
17:03<krinn>with that, i might allow DTRS in towns :)
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>what's a klaxxon?!?
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>and we have quantum effects
17:04<krinn>car ring
17:04<krinn>ringing in car when someone doesn't drive as he should
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea what that means
17:05<krinn>ah
17:05<krinn>and i was thinking it might be german origin
17:05<krinn>but spell might be klaxon
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>what does the origin have to do with anything?
17:06<krinn>it's the "hupe"
17:06<krinn>i was thinking it was german origin, and so that we were sharing the name
17:07<krinn>or word if you prefer than name
17:07<krinn>http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Minimax_pneumatische-Hupe_Makrofon-spezial.jpg&filetimestamp=20100727080323
17:08<krinn>might be buzzer in english, but i'm not sure
17:09<+michi_cc>It's a horn if you talk about a car.
17:11<@peter1138>yeah
17:11<@peter1138>and they're honked
17:13<krinn>ah, i knew buzzer was more for a door
17:13<krinn>none use klaxon ?
17:13<krinn>the word ?
17:13<SpComb>siren
17:13<krinn>yep for police... we use sirène
17:14<@peter1138>klaxons have a specific sound
17:14<SpComb>etymelogy
17:14<krinn>might comes from a tm, or a company name
17:14<@peter1138>yes
17:15<@peter1138>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_horn#Klaxon
17:15<krinn>oh good catch peter1138
17:16<SpComb>how coincidental, I was just reading the same
17:19<krinn>seem i for one time find something Eddi|zuHause didn't know
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>it's not like i know _everything_
17:21<@planetmaker>g'night
17:22<SpComb>xkcd#903
17:22<Ammler>what not?
17:22<Ammler>ah
17:22<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, still impressive, glad you have a limit :)
17:23<Ammler>he is just fooling you
17:23<krinn>lol could be yes
17:25<krinn>pfff, just finish my terraforming code, tooked me time
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: i already said back then that doesn't really apply to me ;)
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18:09<glx>krinn: the generic term is "avertisseur sonore"
18:10<krinn>or sirène
18:10<krinn>but i'm used to klaxon
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18:18<krinn>night all
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18:44<Wolf01>'night all
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18:44<fjunike>night
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19:06<fjunike>short code:
19:06<fjunike>local var = 8; while (blah... { var++; print(var); } print(var);
19:07<fjunike>why is the var at the 2nd print not reachable anymore?
19:08<fjunike>i init the var BEVOR the while and loos it after the while loop
19:09<__ln__>english only
19:10<fjunike>? it is not tai ;)
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>fjunike: you are probably missing something
19:25<fjunike>yes a little bit more english knowleg ;)
19:25-!-Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit []
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>that too :p
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19:27<fjunike>try again tomorrow good night at all
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19:29<Eddi|zuHause>what remote island is .im?
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>oh, it actually is an island :p
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>"Isle of Man"
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21:16<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 83/73
21:16<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 1.13698630137
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21:18<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 1400*83/73
21:18<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 1591.78082192
21:20<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 1400*1.137
21:20<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 1591.8
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---Logclosed Mon Aug 01 00:00:51 2011