Back to Home / #openttd / 2011 / 08 / Prev Day | Next Day
#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-08-01

---Logopened Mon Aug 01 00:00:51 2011
00:04-!-supermop [] has joined #openttd
00:56-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:08-!-supermop [] has quit [Quit: supermop]
01:39-!-sla_ro|master [slaco@] has joined #openttd
01:56-!-fjunike [] has joined #openttd
01:58<fjunike>good morning. can i get the group_id having the group_name?
02:02-!-Br33z4hSlut5 [] has joined #openttd
02:20-!-Prof_Frink [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:33-!-Cybertinus [] has joined #openttd
02:35-!-DayDreamer [~DayDreame@] has joined #openttd
02:43-!-lugo [] has joined #openttd
02:53-!-Juo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:02-!-Alberth [] has joined #openttd
03:02-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
03:05-!-Juo [] has joined #openttd
03:34<@Terkhen>good morning
03:47-!-Biolunar [] has joined #openttd
04:01-!-Vikthor [] has joined #openttd
04:29-!-Zuu [] has joined #openttd
04:37-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
04:51-!-perk11 [] has joined #openttd
05:08<Zuu>Any opinion on my patch "Hide signs of other companies"? Especially the two questions that I ask:
05:09-!-Cybertinus [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
05:12-!-pugi [] has joined #openttd
05:20<@planetmaker>Zuu: ad 1) is fine. Ad 2) could rather wait for a review of all transparency options
05:21<@planetmaker> <-- there's quite a confusion there where to set what
05:23-!-Sacro_ [] has joined #openttd
05:23<@planetmaker>Maybe it could rather be added to the list of things shown in the options menu
05:23<@planetmaker>hm... are you missing the changes to english language file?
05:28<@planetmaker>no. No GUI so far at all :-)
05:39<Zuu>Yep, no GUI at all.
05:39<Zuu>I guess it could get an option in the options menu in the mean time while waiting for the transparency options review (if it ever is gonig to happen)
05:43<Zuu>One could think about generalizing the hiding of other companies to other things than just signs and have it in the transparency window. That said, I will not attempt on that for now.
05:57<@planetmaker>though I'm not too convinced about hiding other company stuff than signs
05:57-!-Sacro_ [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
06:01-!-Adambean [] has joined #openttd
06:31-!-Chris_Booth [] has joined #openttd
06:52<@Alberth>Good point, I often experience that problem with industries. Ah, I can go this and this way (decided from a partially visible set of industries), then you start laying tracks, and you find many other industries are in the way
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>reminds me of a forum thread that went like "why is my rating totally screwed up, when i only modified empty terrain?" - "Man, the whole map is full of trees!"
06:56<@planetmaker>We obviously need the "all mighty transparency button": hide everything ;-)
07:01-!-Neon [] has joined #openttd
07:02<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: lol!
07:03<@Alberth>Noldo_: WHITE (at least if you believe current applications)
07:04<@Alberth>someone: any progress on 'cartoon-style' graphics of simutrans?
07:05*planetmaker quickly hides
07:13<@planetmaker>Alberth, graphics work is mostly missing
07:13<@planetmaker>Like the construction stages need making
07:13<@Alberth>pity, it is such a nice idea
07:13<@planetmaker>And more houses need conversion from simutrans to OpenTTD
07:13<@planetmaker>and now I'm waiting for nml-ification :-P
07:14<@planetmaker>yes, it is...
07:16<@planetmaker> <-- here they are...
07:17<@planetmaker> or here
07:28<Zuu>How about renaming "show only own signs and names" to "hide competitor signs and names", as the option will still show buyos and oilrig stations?
07:29-!-Chillosophy [] has joined #openttd
07:48-!-pugi [] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own]
08:02-!-perk11 [] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.]
08:11<Zuu>No objections. I take that as a yes :-)
08:12*Alberth never sees any competitor at all
08:14<Zuu>or should it still be worded in positive words. Eg. "Show competitor signs and names" and be on by default?
08:15*Zuu thinks that a good idea as it keeps more parallellism with the current options in the settings menu.
08:18-!-glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:d7c:478e:551e:cc5e] has joined #openttd
08:18-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
08:26-!-dnicholls [] has joined #openttd
08:26-!-Sacro1 [] has joined #openttd
08:27<@planetmaker>sounds better, Zuu
08:27<dnicholls>hi all
08:27-!-Sacro1 [] has quit []
08:28<@planetmaker>hello dnicholls
08:28<@planetmaker>Zuu, that depends where you add it to the GUI
08:29<@planetmaker>and how you interpret the bit
08:29<@planetmaker>in the options, texts are positive
08:29<@planetmaker>In the adv. settings... I'm not sure
08:29<Zuu>For now I add it in the settings menu where you enable/disable showing of station names, waypoint names etc.
08:29<@planetmaker>yes, that's what I meant with 'options' :-)
08:30<@planetmaker>to not confuse it with adv. settings :-)
08:30<Zuu>I've moved it there instead of advanced options.
08:30-!-TWerkhoven [] has joined #openttd
08:31-!-Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
08:34-!-Kurimus [] has joined #openttd
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i can't find a useful formula for "unrealistic prices"
08:36<dnicholls>are there any NFO examples of advanced spritelayouts with register modifiers?
08:37<@planetmaker>no other than the implementation thingy
08:38<@planetmaker>at least none I know of
08:41<dnicholls>ah that looks useful, thanks
08:43<@planetmaker>you do have the last nightly version of grfcodec / nforenum, do you?
08:46<dnicholls>r828, yep
08:47<@planetmaker>sounds too old
08:47-!-Vikthor [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
08:49<@planetmaker>832 only introduces it
08:49<@planetmaker>for varaction2
08:50-!-equinox [] has joined #openttd
08:54<dnicholls>so is it not fully supported in grfcodec/renum yet?
08:55<@planetmaker>You don't have the latest version of grfcodec / nforenum
08:56<@planetmaker>And even then I cannot confidently answer your question :-) Maybe it's not 100% supported yet
08:58<dihedral>anybody to magento performance hints?
08:58<@planetmaker>i.e. I'm not sure about station support
08:58<@planetmaker>the others most probably work
09:01<dnicholls>ok, I'll see if I can get anywhere with 832, thanks
09:05<@planetmaker>depending on where you are and what you already have you might risk a look at NML
09:05<@planetmaker>it also supports parametrized spritelayouts
09:13<Zuu>Finally, a new patch for the hide competitors patch has arrived on FS#4701 :-D
09:13<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Error: The command "bugs" is available in the OpenTTD and WT2 plugins. Please specify the plugin whose command you wish to call by using its name as a command before "bugs".
09:18<@planetmaker>+ case OME_SHOW_COMPETITOR_SIGNS:ToggleBit(_display_opt, DO_SHOW_COMPETITOR_SIGNS), InvalidateWindowClassesData(WC_SIGN_LIST, -1); break; <-- I think there's a typo s/,/;/g @ Zuu
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>i don't suppose i could make buying articulated parts cost anything?
09:18<@planetmaker>I guess not without patch
09:18<Zuu>planetmaker: It does compile fine here
09:18<Zuu>but maybe not in gcc?
09:19<@planetmaker>I haven't tested compilation, just reading
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>linear cost factor is annoying, because either you lose resolution on the (far more common) lower end, or you set low limit on the highest possible price
09:19<Zuu>It's the same way of copling togeather several statements in the third part of a for-loop head.
09:20<@planetmaker>Zuu, in any case I wonder whether the coding style wouldn't require a multi-line way of writing it there
09:20<Zuu>I though, it would make sense on a one-liner but if not, I can change it to a semicolon.
09:21<@planetmaker>Zuu, I'm not the biggest expert around :-), but it looks odd to me
09:23<Zuu>Okay, I'll change it. Actually all other case:es in the switch block are one-liners, but they all only have one statement.
09:25<@Alberth>indeed, such use of , is not allowed in normal statements
09:27<@planetmaker>there, our coding style expert when we need him :-)
09:27<@Alberth>at your service :)
09:28<Zuu>planetmaker: coding style fix/change @ FlySpray
09:28<@Alberth>the point of code and its style is to make it as unsurprising as possible, so one can concentrate on what it actually does
09:32<@planetmaker>I shall give it a go tonight, Zuu
09:32<@planetmaker>I think the idea is undisputed ;-)
09:37<Zuu>planetmaker: Thanks
09:40-!-douknoukem [~KEM@] has joined #openttd
09:46-!-Progman [] has joined #openttd
10:09-!-Neon [] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.]
10:09-!-Neon [] has joined #openttd
10:31-!-Br33z4hSlut5 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:02-!-Vikthor [] has joined #openttd
11:14-!-Pikka [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:19-!-KouDy [] has joined #openttd
11:39-!-LordAro [] has joined #openttd
11:39-!-Pulec [] has joined #openttd
11:40<LordAro>Alberth: your fix to the invalid pointer crash yesterday...doesn't work :L - i added the char *dest = readme_text in (then readme_text = dest after the for loop), but same error :(
11:42<@Alberth>hmm, weird.
11:45-!-Zeknurn [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:48<LordAro>any ideas?
11:49<@Alberth>working on that :)
11:49<LordAro>you have 10mins before i have to go :)
11:51<@Alberth>merge with trunk failed :(
11:54<@Alberth>fixed :)
11:55<@Alberth>otherwise, shall I send you a PM (to Lord Aro iirc) ?
11:55<LordAro>yes :) that would be fine
11:55<@Alberth>I just pulled an update, my system has to do a full rebuild
11:56<@Alberth>which takes 5 minutes or so
11:56<LordAro>sounds fun
11:56<LordAro>i (should|)shall be back in 4 hours though
11:56-!-equinox [] has left #openttd []
11:56<@Alberth>ok, have fun :)
11:57-!-Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
12:04-!-LordAro [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
12:16-!-Prof_Frink [] has joined #openttd
12:20-!-goblin [] has joined #openttd
12:22-!-Zeknurn [] has joined #openttd
12:33-!-Gniarf [] has joined #openttd
12:43-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
12:43-!-Zeknurn [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:43-!-Zeknurn [] has joined #openttd
12:44<Gniarf>hi there. "the longer distance the cargo travels, the more you get paid." it means I shouldn't make too short routes ?
12:46<Gniarf>now how does it works with bus and passengers ? bus stations can be 10 tiles apart
12:47<@planetmaker>they can. But you need not do that
12:47<@planetmaker>you could for example use inter-city coaches
12:48-!-andythenorth [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:48<@planetmaker>And... just check it out. Usually a bus going small circles in a town will nevertheless make a profit
12:48<@planetmaker>Just not €€€€€€
12:50-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
12:50-!-andythenorth [] has left #openttd []
12:50-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
13:02-!-Juo [] has quit [Quit: Juo]
13:16<andythenorth>orudge: definitely can't post to tt-forums from my virgin media connection
13:16<andythenorth>bit odd
13:20<Gniarf>how do passengers behave ? do they want to go to the nearest station ?
13:21<Gniarf>I know I can use orders to trick them
13:21<andythenorth>depends if you have yacd or not
13:23<@orudge>andythenorth: but you can browse the forum?
13:23<Gniarf>using default version, no patch (1.0.1, a bit old)
13:23<andythenorth>orudge: yes no problem
13:23<@orudge>andythenorth: what do you see at ?
13:23<andythenorth>You are using IPv6 (2002:5ce9:3804:0:225:ff:fe48:251b).
13:23-!-Chillosophy [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:23<@orudge>it would seem there's some kind of an issue with IPv6, and I'm guessing it's at the server end in that case
13:24<@orudge>since I (sometimes) have the same issue via IPv6
13:24<andythenorth>let me see if I can submit any other forms on the forum
13:24<@orudge>what IPv6 provider are you using?
13:24<andythenorth>I can disable IPv6 on my router
13:24<@orudge>no, no, that shouldn't be necessary
13:24-!-Chillosophy [] has joined #openttd
13:24<andythenorth>I have no idea who's providing it currently
13:24<@orudge>although you may have to use in the mean time
13:24<@orudge>but, hmm
13:24<andythenorth>how do I find out?
13:24<Zuu>Gniarf: With long-distance buses, my AI CluelessPlus can easily turn 18 times as much income as runnig costs (at least using the eGRVTS NewGRF)
13:24<@orudge>you presumably set it up?
13:24<@orudge>I don't think Virgin Media offers IPv6
13:24<@orudge>although I may be wrong
13:24*TWerkhoven would like to know if they do
13:24<@orudge>it just seems unlikely
13:24<andythenorth>that's interesting
13:25-!-Westie [] has quit [Quit: ZNC -]
13:25<andythenorth>orudge: I've disabled it in OS X
13:26<@orudge>well, generally, I would recommend you keep IPv6 on, because it's awesome and all that
13:26<+michi_cc>According to whois that is a Virgin Media allocation.
13:27<+michi_cc>Duh, it is of course, because it is a 6to4 address, which is probably the most unreliable IPv6 method.
13:27<@orudge>has anyone else here who uses IPv6 had any problems posting to the forums, then?
13:27-!-Westie [] has joined #openttd
13:28-!-Netsplit <-> quits: Born_Acorn, ThaAmazonous, PierreW
13:28<Rubidium>michi_cc: using the method of RFC1149 will likely make it even less reliable ;)
13:28<Rubidium>orudge: not that I can remember
13:29-!-tty234 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:29<Rubidium>sorry that I violated the 'needs 3 words' forum rule ;)
13:29<@orudge>see, if I try to reply to that, I get "the connection was reset"
13:30<@orudge>I also have issues uploading via SSH over IPv6 :/
13:30<@orudge>but downloading is fine
13:30<@orudge>it's quite strange
13:30<@orudge>and it only seems to affect the forums
13:30<@orudge>or, well, that machine, at least
13:31-!-Netsplit over, joins: ThaAmazonous, Born_Acorn, PierreW
13:31<Rubidium>I'm using one of those tunnel brokers though
13:32<@orudge>now, if I turn off my firewall, it seems fine
13:32<@orudge>andythenorth: do you use Outpost Firewall by any chance?
13:32-!-Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
13:32<@orudge>well, turning off my firewall fixed it for me, it seems!
13:33<@orudge>but that's not necessarily a good fix
13:35-!-tty234 [] has joined #openttd
13:47-!-Juo [] has joined #openttd
13:47-!-DOUK [~KEM@] has joined #openttd
13:50-!-fjunike [] has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - ~]
13:54-!-douknoukem [~KEM@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:58-!-Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
14:00<@planetmaker>hm, Zuu? Your hide sign patch fails to apply on most of its hunks...?
14:00<@planetmaker>Did you start with a patched version?
14:01<Zuu>yes, though I didn't think they would collide.
14:02<Zuu>It could also be an issue with line endings?
14:02<Rubidium>all but Windows' patch should handle that relatively gracefully
14:03<@planetmaker>but it was exactly that
14:03<Zuu>When I open the patch in gVim, I see MS line endings at the end of the code lines.
14:03<@planetmaker>after dos2unix it applies without any inconvenience
14:03<Zuu>I would try a :%s/\r//g
14:04<@planetmaker>dos2unix command is made for that ;-)
14:04-!-andythenorth is now known as Guest4425
14:04-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
14:04<Zuu>I use that one sometimes.
14:04-!-Guest4425 [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:04-!-frosch123 [] has joined #openttd
14:09-!-Brianetta [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:10-!-Chillosophy [] has quit []
14:11-!-Kurimus [] has quit []
14:13-!-DOUK [~KEM@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:13<@planetmaker>Zuu: in signs_gui.cpp you define OwnerVisibilityFilter(...)
14:14<@planetmaker>and in FilterSignList() you call it only when the visibility bit has already been checked
14:14<@planetmaker>seems a bit double tested
14:14<@planetmaker>Rb suggested to replace the bit check in FilterSignList by an assertion instead
14:16<Zuu>The check in OwnerVisibilityFilter could be turned to an assertion, but not the other way around.
14:17<@planetmaker>ehm... that's what I meant to write
14:17<Zuu>But you are right that the check in OwnerVisibilityFilter is not needed. (I wrote the code in the order that I wrote the filter function first and then didn't see that the check become unneccsarry. But I guess that is what code review is for ;-)
14:17<@planetmaker>yup :-)
14:18-!-|Jeroen| [] has joined #openttd
14:19<@planetmaker>don't worry to update
14:19<Zuu>Okay :-)
14:34-!-|Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
14:36<@planetmaker>jaja. Always these evil trailing white space ;-)
14:38<@Alberth>stupid editors that do not even show it
14:39<frosch123>yeah, those editors are only beaten by those insering tabs and spaces at random
14:39<@planetmaker>:-) It could show it. But... it's not done a good way; thus I don't use it most of the time
14:40-!-Xrufuian [] has joined #openttd
14:41<CIA-2>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22708 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Feature [FS#4701]: Display option to hide competitors' signs and station names (Zuu)
14:41-!-goblin [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
14:42<Zuu>Thanks to everyone who has helped with the review.
14:42<@planetmaker>thanks, Zuu :-)
14:44<frosch123>wow, ttdpatch got a usable bug tracker
14:45<frosch123>i might actually dump some stuff into it :)
14:45<@Alberth>now they only need a developer :)
14:49<Zuu>planetmaker: Have you taken any look at FS#4704? (the one-liner AIAirport noise fix)
14:51<@planetmaker>I looked at it. But I didn't yet spend time on understanding what it exactly means
14:51<@planetmaker>and I'm not familiar with that part of the code to know that from that patch alone
14:51<Zuu>ok, I guess it needs some time to get into it if you are not familar with the concepts.
14:52<Zuu>Maybe I also could make a better job on explaining what the patch tries to do?
15:02<@planetmaker>so, it basically changes the function thus that it also returns the noise level for unavailable airports?
15:03<@planetmaker>^ Zuu
15:03<Zuu>I just added a more estensive comment at FS
15:04<Zuu>Although it requires that the AI have at least one airport built of that type in order to get any noise level data.
15:05<Zuu>I mean, for available airports, the AI don't need an airport to use it, but for unavailable airports, the requirment is that the AI must have one airport in order to get any data (just -1)
15:06<@planetmaker>so... it only means it additionally gets info on not-anymore available airports?
15:08<Zuu>yes, if the AI has one.
15:08<Zuu>Eg. if it got a small airport after it has become unavailable.
15:08<@planetmaker>as it checks a specific tile
15:09<Zuu>The tile doesn't have to be an airport tile.
15:10<@planetmaker>where does the "AI has to have that airport type" come into play then?
15:10<Zuu>The change from IsValidAirportType => IsAirportInformationAvailable
15:11<Zuu>The later returns true also if an AI have an airport of the given airport type, while the former does not.
15:11-!-DayDreamer [~DayDreame@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:12<Zuu>(I'm just building OpenTTD with the patch and will make a small AI to just verify that the patch works - from code review I can't see any reason why it wouldn't but a verification can't hurt)
15:12-!-krinn [] has joined #openttd
15:12-!-DayDreamer [~DayDreame@] has joined #openttd
15:14<@planetmaker>hi krinn
15:20<krinn>planetmaker, if i drop a station, townrating is check before or after the action? (i mean the airport might destroy plants tile while been build, so before = no effect, and after, my rating could be bellow the acceptable value because of tree destruction)
15:22<@planetmaker>rating is checked and then construction as a single step takes place
15:22<@Alberth>sounds like a question for the source code, but what difference does it make?
15:22<@planetmaker>(for each click you do, of course)
15:22-!-KritiK [] has joined #openttd
15:22<krinn>Alberth, if check before, say tr = -200 i could plant the station
15:23<@planetmaker>checking afterwards makes little sense IMHO :-)
15:23<krinn>Alberth, if check after say tr=200 and loosing 50 because of loosing tree -> now tr -250
15:23<andythenorth>how silly
15:23<andythenorth>they can spot unrealism at 50 paces
15:23<andythenorth>but when asked for unrealism, they contribute ideas for realism :P
15:23<@Alberth>krinn: but then you have no way of finding out how much damage you'll do beforehand, so just build it is still the only sane solution
15:24<krinn>human maybe, ai can count all tiles taken and rating lost before the action :)
15:24<@Alberth>andythenorth: much like you ask for simplification of signals, and they propose completely new signals besides what we have already :)
15:25<andythenorth>ha ha
15:25<@planetmaker>krinn: but AIs are treated like humans without eyes ;-)
15:25<andythenorth>I ask for a simple newgrf feature, and suddenly we reinvent half the spec :P
15:25<@planetmaker>they get no special treatment, especially not in the game mechanics
15:25<krinn>andythenorth, i think one should make a thread "for openttd realism = godwin)
15:25-!-pugi [] has joined #openttd
15:25-!-Juo [] has quit [Quit: Juo]
15:26<andythenorth>I once pointed out something unrealistic to a model train fan
15:26<andythenorth>his answer was quite brutal
15:26<andythenorth>and pointed out some basic differences between real life and a toy
15:26<andythenorth>based around, you know, scale, and stuff like that
15:27<andythenorth>this from a guy who is known to spend £tens of thousands per year on model trains
15:27*Alberth notices he has done industries in the wrong order, I skipped PBI
15:27-!-Juo [] has joined #openttd
15:27<krinn>bah, some women were burn at some epoch because it wasn't "realistic" or just possible to see a girl with red hair
15:27<andythenorth>who wrote the story about the map fallacy? Lewis Carrol?
15:28<@peter1138>andythenorth, yeah, it's a mismash of OO/HO, heh
15:28<andythenorth>peter1138: this guy was into p4 :P
15:28<andythenorth>and custom etching his own parts
15:28<krinn>the problem is that "realistic" guys are always pationate guys, hence brutal answer when you tickle it
15:29<@peter1138>andythenorth, cool :)
15:30<@peter1138>though not cool in the "gets all the ladies" sense...
15:30<krinn>planetmaker, in wiki none note rating loose for terraforming (except because of loosing tree on tiles altered), there's none except that so ?
15:35<Zuu>planetmaker: I've now play-tested the patch with a test AI that each day displays the noise level for the small airport. On 1.1.2-RC2 on the other hand, the expected bug-ish behaviour is reproduced.
15:36<CIA-2>OpenTTD: alberth * r22709 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Doc: Doxyment fileio.cpp.
15:37<krinn>Zuu, why care about old airport noise level? if you upgrade airport, you shouldn't end with a so old airport that you lost its noise level info no?
15:37<@Alberth>krinn: usually, because you didn't upgrade yet :)
15:37<Zuu>andythenorth: after my NUTS post it got to me that my post was maybe too realistic. ;-)
15:37<krinn>in my tests, i only end with such case because the airport couldn't be upgrade at all (no place for it)
15:38<krinn>Alberth, when a new airport get out, old one isn't remove, need more delay than that, and meanwhile, you upgrade them
15:38<Zuu>krinn: You need to get info about how much noise the old airport generate in order to see how much more noise the new airport generates. No point on sending away aircrafts and start upgrading if you already by noise level can see that it will not work.
15:39<@Alberth>krinn: that's what you do, but not every author does the same
15:40<krinn>Alberth, if the ai cannot upgrade, it will never need to know that info too, as it will never upgrade its airports
15:40<krinn>Alberth, might be a problem if the ai v1 doesn't do that, save map, load ai v2 that handle it, this time yep, the ai might try upgrade the airport blindly
15:40<Zuu>In some air-only games I've tested, all AIs had trouble turning profit and were not able to upgrade all airports by that time. It can partly be blamed by the fact that CluelessPlus does not have a system for reserving money for future investments.
15:41<@Alberth>Zuu: AI authors should do something themselves too :)
15:42<krinn>what! we're AI authors! Used to be assist
15:42<krinn>the computer does the job, not us
15:43<Zuu>Still, with noise levels turned on, not all towns allow upgrading to large airports. The commuter does not appear until after the small airport has become unavailable.
15:43<krinn>Zuu, the aircraft test is good yep, i was unable to upgrade mostly because at certain size, it's nearly impossible to get that much tile flat, so now terraforming add
15:43<andythenorth>Zuu: UnrealisticAI!
15:43<krinn>lol andythenorth
15:44<Zuu>andythenorth: Asking for YAZA - yet another zuu ai?
15:44-!-Xrufuian [] has quit [Quit: Rebooting due to system memory leak...]
15:44<andythenorth>I actually want VerboseAI
15:45<andythenorth>it builds routes that spell out popular quotes
15:45<andythenorth>shakespeare, ghandi, the tao etc
15:45<Zuu>spelled out using road/rail as letters?
15:47<krinn>just to get a "unrealistic! no train company would be rail as a quote!"
15:47<krinn> /s/be/do
15:47<@Alberth>Zuu: yeah, I never understood the purpose of the commuter airport
15:48<andythenorth>just to do something awesome :P
15:48<Zuu>The commuter airport is actually quite good performance wise. I only would like to swap the controller tower with the depot to better work with my depot orders. :-)
15:49<Zuu>And as krinn, says, AIs are not (yet) very good at terraforming, so therefore airports with a small size are much easier to handle.
15:50<krinn>Zuu, nope i said "wasn't", now more than good :)
15:50<@planetmaker>Zuu: shall I swap depot and tower?
15:50<@planetmaker>Only side effect would be servicing would then take place in the tower :-P
15:50<@Alberth>NO, it's unrealistic! :p
15:50<Zuu>planetmaker: It is good if you order vehicles to visit the depot before the station.
15:50<krinn>planetmaker, must be a code problem as your depot is a uperleft = also answer to getlocation()
15:50<Zuu>Otherwise, the current setup is better.
15:51<@planetmaker>well, we need NewAirports and newgrf-able state machines
15:51<Zuu>Having the depot at the entrance is however more consistent with the international airport.
15:51*Alberth ponders how to do NewAirports
15:52<krinn>you can still get airport location, but need to check its tiles and note use AIStation.GetLocation()
15:52-!-perk11 [] has joined #openttd
15:53<Zuu>krinn: You do higlight a good point, several AIs might break on an airport with the hangar at the north corner.
15:53<krinn>planetmaker, your desing is making AIStation.GetLocation()==AIAircraft.GetDepotLocation() (or function like that)
15:53<krinn>yep, mine would
15:53<krinn>didn't because i simply remove commuter as buildable airport
15:53<Zuu>I probably have some things that would explode :-)
15:54<krinn>but still, might happen with some newGRF stilling a "classic" airport
15:55<Zuu>Yep, that will need some code cleenup/improvements in the AIs to handle it.
15:55<krinn>i think it's not solvable, only by the grf maker
15:55<Zuu>But I don't think it will be impossible for AIs to handle as orders have a property that say if they are station or depot orders.
15:56<Zuu>And as long as the airport have at least one non-depot tile, you can use that one to send to API functions that want a station/airport tile.
15:56<krinn>it's doable if the author know the weakness, or changing getlocation code, but this will brake the rule "return topleft tile, build from topleft..."
15:56<Zuu>One interesting thing I found out is that the Heliport have a hangar according to the API.
15:57<@planetmaker>all except the one-tile heli port(?)
15:57<Zuu>heliport == the one-tile heliport
15:57<Zuu>The others have names like helidepot and helistation.
15:58<@planetmaker>I just recently checked the definitions in the source and there it has no hangar
15:58<krinn>Zuu, i'm not sure, but i think the plaform also answer to depot query
15:59<@planetmaker>the only one missing that feature actually
15:59<Zuu>planetmaker: IIRC helicopters that visit the heliport will get serviced. So it might be something related to that.
15:59<krinn>should retest that, it's easy with ai and sign
16:03-!-LordAro [] has joined #openttd
16:04<@planetmaker>Zuu: in the airport definitions the heliport is its on airport type
16:05<@planetmaker>and the comment reads "/** AirportSpec definition for airports without any depot. */ "
16:05<@planetmaker>but... might not exclude servicing
16:05<@planetmaker>though it'd feel wrong
16:08<krinn>nope, no hangar report by the heliport and the platform
16:15<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22710 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (ai_airport.cpp ai_airport.hpp): -Fix [FS#4704]: Allow AIAirport::GetNoiseLevelIncrease() also for expired airports.
16:15<frosch123>sorry, zuu, forgot the "(zuu)"
16:16<krinn>erf, we couldn't blame him if it doesn't work
16:16<Zuu>frosch123: No problem, such things happens.
16:17<Zuu>I just posted the result of my playtest of the patch to the bugtracker. It contains nothing that holds against inclusion of the patch.
16:18<Zuu>It did however prove me wrong on one thing. All AIs can get information about no longer available airports no matter if they have or even had one of the given type.
16:18<Zuu>This is however also true for eg. AIAirport.GetAirportWith(airport_type)
16:19<krinn>hopefuly :)
16:19<__ln__>@seen Darkvater
16:19<@DorpsGek>__ln__: Darkvater was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 15 weeks, 3 days, 8 hours, 41 minutes, and 35 seconds ago: <Darkvater> good ol' days :)
16:19<Zuu>But that is not a big issue as there exist a function that AIs should use to test if an airport type is really buildable as well.
16:20<Zuu>Knowing that an airport that you can't build and doesn't have (anymore) is 4 tiles wide and give 3 in noise is not any information that will give any huge benefit to an AI. :-)
16:21<krinn>not for the ai airport, but it's good information if you look at an airport of someone else, not that i do that, but who knows
16:22<Zuu>hmm, yes. As long as an airport can uniquly be idenified by its size, you can now get the noise level of an opponents old acient airport. ^^
16:23<@planetmaker>Zuu: it'd not be a good idea to rely on unique airport sizes
16:23<@planetmaker>I can even change and break that now
16:23<@planetmaker>via newgrf
16:23<krinn>as long as the airport have a noise level info, you can stare at it until opponent die and then knew town accept X more noise level (as example)
16:24<@planetmaker>and actually city + metropolitan are same size
16:24<@planetmaker>by default
16:24<krinn>small and commuter too
16:24<@planetmaker>no, they're different
16:25<Zuu>I don't rely on that information, it was just a crazy idea on how to abuse the API :-)
16:25<krinn>i was thinking they were same size
16:25<@planetmaker>4x3 vs 5x4
16:25<@planetmaker>nope :-)
16:25<@planetmaker>I re-programmed each tile layout as newgrf ;-)
16:25<LordAro>Alberth: PM read :) will do stuff tomorrow, thanks again :)
16:25<@planetmaker>commuter was more tiles
16:25-!-sla_ro|master [slaco@] has quit [Quit: The Third Tiberium War -]
16:25<@Alberth>ok, hopefully it works
16:26<LordAro>hopefully :)
16:26<Zuu>planetmaker: Sounds promising, is that included in OpenGFX+ Airports?
16:26<@planetmaker>Zuu: what exactly? You mean different sizes for (default) airports?
16:26<@planetmaker>Not yet
16:27<Zuu>no, the re-programmed tile layouts.
16:27<@planetmaker>It also has some issues - which don't make it easy to change that while using the same state machine
16:27<krinn>can newgrf change airporttype or introduce new ones ?
16:27<@planetmaker>Zuu: that's the only way you can re-define airports
16:27<@planetmaker>so, yes. Each airport there has a re-programmed tile layout
16:27<@planetmaker>tile layout != state machine though
16:28<@planetmaker>at least only way, when I want snow ;-)
16:28<Zuu>tile layout is basically a 2D array (or modelled as a 1-dimensional array) with tiles?
16:28<@planetmaker>it's a 2D array with relative positions wrt the Northern tile
16:29<@planetmaker>and defines which tile is at the given positions
16:29<krinn>planetmaker, airtype is fix in newgrf (must re-use one existing) ?
16:29<@planetmaker>I can also leave gaps or so
16:29<@planetmaker>krinn: airport type: no.
16:29<@planetmaker>I can define my own
16:29<@planetmaker>What I cannot do is use my own movement pattern - there I have to re-use an existing one
16:29<Zuu>krinn: No, the rotatable airport in current OpenGFX+ appear at index 10
16:30<Zuu>But NoAI works with it using index 0 (AT_SMALL) without problems as far as I have seen.
16:30<krinn>i only see 0-8 + 255 invalid
16:30<Zuu>Other than that it can't build the rotated view.
16:30<@planetmaker>krinn: do you have opengfx+ airports loaded?
16:31<@planetmaker>well then
16:31<@planetmaker>we talk of newgrf airports ;-)
16:31<krinn>but it's not about opengfx, it's because i cannot knew that info
16:31<krinn>as i cannot get the AT list
16:31<@planetmaker>what should an AI do with that?
16:31<Zuu>krinn: Calm down, the API is not ready for more airport types. Some work need to be done there before we as AI authors need to wory.
16:31<@planetmaker>AT = ?
16:32<krinn>and to create an airport you need AirportType to build one, and you can only get AirportType info... by querying a tile with an airport :)
16:32<@planetmaker>ok then :-)
16:32<krinn>AirportType list are AT_...
16:32<@planetmaker>Zuu: it's somewhat difficult. I *can* define new airport types
16:32<@planetmaker>But it's currently somewhat pointless... as I cannot define my own movement pattern
16:32<krinn>if one build a new airportType, we will be like the refit vehicle size problem
16:33<@planetmaker>And... I actually *might* include my own interpretation of an airport in OpenGFX+ Airports at some stage
16:33<Zuu>krinn: you can iterate from 0 to < 255 and check IsValidAirport for each value to see if there are any new airports. In theory. In practice I've found that indexes without airport types looks valid too.
16:33<@planetmaker>Like a real dirt airport. Small without buildings
16:33<@planetmaker>or maybe a different interpretation of city
16:34<@planetmaker>but that might be too big
16:34<@planetmaker>and could actually also be done as another layout / view for the small or city respectively
16:35<Zuu>I would opt for a situation when views only have different rotations, but still have the same performance etc.
16:35<krinn>city = just a big town or it have other attributes ?
16:35<@planetmaker>Zuu: that will always be the case
16:35<@planetmaker>A view means the state machine doesn't change
16:35<@planetmaker>Which means: same performance
16:35<@planetmaker>maybe just different rotation - but that's of no importance
16:35<Zuu>planetmaker: good to hear. That will simplify the API significantly.
16:36<Zuu>city == a town that grows quicker IIRC
16:36<@planetmaker>everything else IMHO would be a new airport and make the distinction between view and airport pointless
16:37<Zuu>planetmaker: Good that my hope is the same as how the specs are layed out.
16:37<krinn>we should have a kind of airport capacity if you introduce new airport type
16:38-!-Twerkhoven[L] [] has joined #openttd
16:38<krinn>if i iter and query all answer, what will gave me an idea if the airport is better than another one, except assuming bigger = better, but newgrf authors might not assume that (like build only 1 road on a big airport)
16:38<Zuu>we also need AIAirport.GetNumHoldingAircrafts(airport_tile), as AIs can no longer hardcode the holidng patterns of the existing airports.
16:38<@planetmaker>krinn: that's not clear for the defaults either
16:39<@planetmaker>the intercontinental is not the best, not even by throughput
16:39<krinn>yep planetmaker but default are know
16:39<krinn>and could be test, and you make your human choice, leaving ai without having to decide
16:40<@planetmaker>krinn: but humans don't know either
16:40<krinn>but with newgrf, choices need to be taken by the ai
16:40<krinn>yep until i play it, but ai can play with it, while i never play it myself
16:40<Zuu>Anyway, I might take a look at the API and see what can be improved on the airport side. I don't know much about NewGRFs or NewGRF Airports (yet) on the technical level.
16:41<krinn>if airport have a value (througput or something) ai could choose
16:41<@planetmaker>well, currently: nothing which is of interest to AIs except availability dates
16:41<Zuu>It will probably be possible to expose the number of runways to the AI. (yes I know, the # of runways are not the most important for performance)
16:41<krinn>would be a not bad start yes
16:42<@planetmaker>yes, that might be possible as well as loading places and hangars
16:42-!-Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
16:42<@planetmaker>and heli stations
16:42<@planetmaker>and of course large vs. small vs. heliport type
16:42<krinn>if one make a 12x12 airport full of maiz with 1 runway, at least ai could see it might not be a good one
16:42<@planetmaker>oh, and important is the catchment size
16:42<andythenorth>forgot to draw 2 angles of forklift :P
16:42<@planetmaker>that's actually quite important
16:43<krinn>catchment is what ? how many planes can land at same time ?
16:43<krinn>or time to clear runway
16:44<@planetmaker>so... currently: availability, dimensions, size (wrt. aircraft types), noise, catchment,
16:44<@planetmaker>later: runways, depots, heliports, loading bays, hangars
16:44<krinn>depots is easy to get now
16:44<andythenorth>airports should have a 'snowed in' disaster
16:44<@planetmaker>rotation (view) will also need to be exposed
16:44<andythenorth>in arctic only
16:45<@planetmaker>krinn: I just list what I consider important. I didn't read current API ;-)
16:45<@Alberth>andythenorth: good suggestion :)
16:46<krinn>yes, this thing can let ai decide, and be able to pick itself new airport never seen
16:47<@planetmaker>that's how an AI should do it, yes
16:48<@planetmaker>otherwise it'll fail on airports sooner or later
16:48<andythenorth>depends on airport closure :P
16:48<@planetmaker>currently rather later, though
16:48<andythenorth>I would like to be able to use disasters
16:48<@planetmaker>disaster newgrfs ;-)
16:49<krinn>can only fail: use hardcode preference (that type is > that type), or guess with poor info (bigger size = better), newer = better...
16:49<Zuu>planetmaker + frosch123: I just realized, that unless you did that, I forgot to include updates to the NoAI changelog.
16:49<krinn>but as i said, size could be wrong with a "fancy" maïz airport with 1 runway but huge, and newer = commuter is sample it might not be the case (or heliport)
16:50<frosch123>Zuu: i considered it a fix
16:50<frosch123>which is not to be documented
16:50<frosch123>i extended the doc though with an @pre
16:51<Zuu>Good, I completely forgot about it until now. I guess as it is a fix it should neither have updates to the compatibility layers for old API versions.
16:52<krinn>Zuu, bah, old version might test return = valid or -1, and apply some heuristic with -1, now, they will work as they get the right result like if the airport isn't dead
16:52-!-Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
16:53<Zuu>I don't think it will cause any trouble to old AIs. Hopefully :-)
16:54<krinn>me too, they get the right result, and never now get -1, even one was handling -1 case won't happen that's all
16:58<Zuu>planetmaker: Can views have different introduction dates?
16:59<Zuu>Or maybe I should seek the NewGRF specs rather than bothering you. ;-)
16:59*andythenorth -> bed
16:59-!-andythenorth [] has left #openttd []
17:00<krinn>:) i also think planetmaker is openttd internal wiki, sorry planetmaker to bug you always with questions
17:01<@planetmaker>Zuu: no, one airport, one introduction date
17:01<@planetmaker>view is just that: a different view with a rotation
17:02<@planetmaker>I can change graphics depending on that, but...
17:02<@planetmaker>but changing that is not unthinkable
17:03<krinn>openttd support landing north/south ? (as if view could switch airport direction)
17:03<@planetmaker>krinn: sorry, what do you mean with 'openttd internal wiki'?
17:03<@planetmaker>the holding patterns of airports are automatically adjusted.
17:04<krinn>openttd internals wiki, with s might be clearer, was thinking as "if one ask question about how something works, planetmaker have the answer"
17:04<@planetmaker>It's nothing a player or AI can change or influence
17:04<@planetmaker>haha :-)
17:04-!-LordAro [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
17:04<krinn>the code itself too, but you need to search all codes to find the same answer, hence planetmaker = wiki answer, faster result
17:05<@planetmaker>krinn: I no virtually nothing about the AI API
17:05<krinn>eheh, but most ai trouble doesn't comes from the api itself :p
17:06<krinn>api is far more limited than openttd, and api use openttd mechanic at best, so knowledge of openttd code is stronger
17:06<krinn>i don't think any api functions does an action openttd doesn't do, or very few
17:07<@planetmaker>NoAI cannot cheat
17:07<@planetmaker>everything an AI can do a player can also do.
17:07<@planetmaker>That's the philosophy behind it. And vice versa
17:07<@planetmaker>but that's not all implemented yet
17:07<@planetmaker>for that it needs people like Zuu ;-)
17:09<@planetmaker>as it usually works best, if people can work on both sides of an API ;-)
17:10<Zuu>Indeed, that helps alot.
17:10<krinn>i'm sure, i see that right here :)
17:11<Zuu>But it has taken me long time to get used to the OpenTTD code and doing more than one-liners. :-)
17:11<krinn>you do 2 lines comment now ?
17:11<Zuu>I was refering to one line patcehs.
17:11<Gniarf>can you rotate the map/view by 90° ?
17:11-!-frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:11<krinn>i was kidding you zuu
17:12<Zuu>Gniarf: Only if you also rotate your screen 90 degrees ;-)
17:12<Gniarf>I guess it was in simcity 2000
17:12<Zuu>simcity 2000 had it yes.
17:12<krinn>that's why you have transparency option
17:12<Zuu>And from today, we even have a new transparency option :-D
17:13<Chris_Booth>ooh we do
17:13<Chris_Booth>nice what is that?
17:14<krinn>except tiles, i don't see what could be transparent
17:14<@Alberth>it's a setting that toggles whether some part of the game world are transparent
17:15<krinn>lol, tiles so, to see thru hills? but tunnels aren't really "build" no ?
17:15<@Alberth>industries, houses, bridges
17:17*krinn is waiting the nude in house patch from zuu
17:18<@planetmaker>Zuu: that's natural. And it's not like OpenTTD's code base is small...
17:19<Zuu>planetmaker: Indeed not
17:19<Zuu>(agrees that it is not small)
17:19<krinn>lot of code and functions, one ever count total lines of code ?
17:20<Zuu>Last time I counted (long time ago) it was about 300 000 lines of code.
17:20<Zuu>If my memory is correct.
17:20<@planetmaker> <-- 300k+ lines
17:21<Zuu>I guess the bump in 2009 is NoAI/Squirrel.
17:21<@planetmaker>krinn: easy thing to do: for i in 'hg st -A'; do wc -l
17:21<krinn>look at graph, 100k in a ~year
17:22<@planetmaker>iirc, yes
17:22<V453000>unimaginable for me :D
17:22<@planetmaker>2.5 years, krinn ;-)
17:22<krinn>wc -l will count also comments... but i suppose all should count, as comment is also eating time to write them
17:23<krinn>ah yes, oops, didn't saw it was 2 years scale
17:23<krinn>that's still 50k / year
17:23<krinn>~50k :)
17:25<Zuu>As for comparison, the largest code base I've written just by myself is 30 000 lines, which is of course not tiny, but still much smaller than OpenTTD :-)
17:25<krinn>pickup language
17:26<krinn>c->c++ in 2007
17:29<@Terkhen>good night
17:29<@Alberth>good night
17:29<Chris_Booth>gn Terkhen
17:29<@planetmaker>sounds good.
17:29<@planetmaker>good night
17:29<Zuu>night planetmaker & Terkhen
17:30<krinn>good night planetmaker (or was it for Terkhen?)
17:32-!-HerzogDeXtEr [] has joined #openttd
17:34-!-Alberth [] has left #openttd []
17:37<Chris_Booth>night all
17:37-!-HerzogDeXtEr1 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:40-!-Neon [] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.]
17:43-!-Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:43<krinn>Zuu, you know a way to cheat to lower my town rating to check it against my code (when i use my ai to destroy things, i get demolition limit after ~12 tiles delete)
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: enable magic bulldozer?
17:45<krinn>nope, still have the limit!
17:45<krinn>just enable me to destroy anything, but i'm limit by # of destruction / (dunno seconds)
17:45-!-Chillosophy [] has joined #openttd
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>oh, that is a setting
17:46<krinn>heard of such setting, but never saw it, it's an ai setting only ?
17:46-!-DayDreamer [~DayDreame@] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>try "list_settings clear" and "list_settings terraform" on the console
17:47<krinn>get 64k_frames=100 & frame_burst=10
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>that's a little low
17:47<krinn>that's really low, but it's the aircraft test map, must have been set to bug the ai
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>default is 4M and 4k
17:48<krinn>hmmmm, how should we handle that ? i can grab that settings, but should i adapt my ai to that, making huge pauses ?
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>i can't help you with that ;)
17:49<krinn>damnit! wiki is sleeping !
17:50<krinn>lol didn't know the buldozer is also enable for the ai
17:50<krinn>lol just lost an industry ^^
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>it does that if you keep it enabled :p
17:50<Zuu>krinn: Figure out how the furst thing etc. work and insert Sleep-calls to comply with the rules. Or see if there exist a specific error code for this error that your AI can detect and insert sleep calls.
17:51<Zuu>the magic buldozer is even enabled for towns, so they can destroy industries.
17:51<krinn>Zuu, i'm digging the ai doc to see if there's a kinda "error too fast..." to answer sleep to that
17:52<krinn>bad-> DemolishTile could only answer ERR_AREA_NOT_CLEAR
17:52<Zuu>If you get such an error message in the GUI, it should be not too hard to add it to the API if it is missing there. Maybe something to start with for you? (given that the API doesn't have it yet of course)
17:53<krinn>strange settings, might be useful for evil multiplayer gameplay, but putting that on an ai ?
17:53<krinn>if the ai is evil, it will do it 1 time and user remove it, not like human that could have random action
17:54<Zuu>AIs can play on multiplayer, so the AI can get into trouble if it doesn't handle it.
17:54<krinn>yep, i'm just surprise ai have to deal with that and is affect by that without a specific error to handle it
17:54<Zuu>Also, AIs play by the same rules as humans.
17:54<krinn>but that settings is emotional
17:55<Zuu>The old AI cheated and was criticed for that.
17:55<Zuu>The old AI had free terraforming.
17:55<krinn>i knew, but it's not a free terraforming, it's don't terraform as much as you wish
17:56<krinn>or in my case, destroy
17:56<krinn>you know what i mean zuu, except program to do random evil things, the ai when terraforming as a plan, and not some emotional reaction to bug another user
17:58-!-Adambean [] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing]
17:58<krinn>hihi -> Area isn't clear, try to demolish the building on it. for ERR_AREA_NOT_CLEAR
17:59<Zuu>I see what you mean, but I dissagree to losen the idea that humans and AIs should play on equal rules.
17:59-!-dnicholls [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330]]
18:00<krinn>that's not really the same imo
18:00<Zuu>That the API doesn't report a relevant error for the burst-thing, however, I think can be changed. Especially if humans get a relevant error.
18:00<krinn>i don't know, i get the error, but i was playing as my ai to lower its town rating
18:00<Zuu>But not removeal of the burst limit.
18:01<krinn>and that number is more than low (it's the aircraft save), i suppose none would be so restrictive in normal game
18:01<Zuu>That said, there are certain settings in OpenTTD that will get most AIs into trouble.
18:01<krinn>frame_bust=10 ~10 delete and error appears, try to clear a 12x12 area for your airport with that ^^
18:02<Zuu>As AI author you have to choose if you want to support all settings or just the most common ones.
18:02<Zuu>Supporting all settings is however probably impossible ;-)
18:02<Zuu>Just testing all settings will take very long time.
18:03<krinn>i don't know, for that case, never saw my ai face it, and i just can't see the error
18:03<krinn>but returning area_not_clear when trying to clear it ^^
18:03<Zuu>One example that I don't think many AIs handle good is turning of joining of distant stations. If you do that, you can't pass a station id to the BuildStation functions.
18:04<krinn>my ai will assume an opponent object is in the way (that's why it cannot be demolish)
18:05<krinn>too much settings, good for human fine tuning their playing, but for ai authors... too hard to handle them
18:05<Zuu>Anyway the point is, AIs and Humans should play on equal rules. So if you can figure out that a human can get a more relevant error message than your AI, file a bug report on that or even better try to code a fix.
18:07<krinn>i will see if futher things should be done
18:07<Zuu>If the humans get the same level of error message as AIs, one can always "fix" it by providing both AIs and humans with the same better error message.
18:07<krinn>that would be good for ai author that wish handle it
18:08<krinn>but it would be faster to just ignore it and accept random failure with such hard settings
18:09<krinn>i don't do my ai to be playable in all unusual situations that human can met and handle easy (just waiting in that case, while human action are slower in all case)
18:10<krinn>doing such an ai would be support the 300k lines ^^
18:17<Zuu>you do not need to support the GUI code which is probably a rather significant portion of those lines.
18:18<krinn>yep, and sound, graphics... but still that would be a lot :)
18:19<Zuu>I think what is amazing is how stable Convoy has proven to be over the years even though it has been quite long time sinece last release of it.
18:19<krinn>well, easy, few code, less complex = less error
18:20<krinn>stabilizing nocab is certainly harder
18:25-!-Pulec [] has quit []
18:29<krinn>i think it could be code in newgrf to tell what runaway is use to land and what is use to get off
18:29<krinn>and that info is important
18:29<krinn>more landing runaway = faster queue remover
18:29<krinn>more getoff runway = faster cleaning of loading stations
18:30<krinn>in case one build 2 airport with 3 runways we should be able to base our choice on that
18:30<krinn>if you look at airport, there's one with 2 runway next to each other that are use to land and getoff
18:31<krinn>and the biggest one use 2 but they are opposites, effect -> a landing aircraft is not blocking one that wish getoff
18:31<krinn>faster handling of vehicle, but still they only have 2 runway
18:31<krinn>so if we could knew where they are, or detect runway tiles, we could see efficiency of runway position
18:32<Zuu>Please sumarize and write a proposal in the thread so it will not get forgeten.
18:32<krinn>will screenshot them, i don't think my pov will be understood else ^^
18:33<Zuu>you have images here:
18:34<krinn>ah great thank you
18:34<Zuu>The images are GPL.
18:34-!-OwenS [] has quit [Quit: ZNC -]
18:35-!-KouDy [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:35<krinn>will use wiki links to them, should be ok
18:36-!-OwenS [~oshepherd@2002:6d4a:c7b0::1] has joined #openttd
18:41-!-Vikthor [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:45<Zuu>Hmm, for the first time, reading a NewGRF spec that start to really make sense :-)
18:48-!-zachanima [] has joined #openttd
18:49-!-perk11 [] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.]
18:50<krinn>in the sense: i know why they do crazy things, because newgrf allow them to ? :)
18:50-!-Twerkhoven[L] [] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into]
18:51<Zuu>No, I mean starting to grasp the spec at a higher level.
18:51<Zuu>You know, the NFO stuff with bits all over :-)
18:54<krinn>i know 0 about newgrf :P
18:54<krinn>just that they do stupid things with prize in it, they have mostly nice graphics, and are way to hard to identify in bananas :)
18:55<krinn>oh, and that i never knew if adding one to get more vehicle i will end with new vehicle but loosing the original ones, lol, maybe ending with fewer than without it
18:55<Zuu>I haven't coded any NewGRF either. I know a little bit about it from what I've heard aronud the forums but have tried to hide away from it. :-)
18:56<krinn>yeah, sad, i was just looking to add some new vehicles, i endup give up with all those problems
18:56<Zuu>I did however draw the old fizzy drinks factory in OpenGFX :-)
18:57<krinn>i only have a few to test the ai with them, but don't play with it
18:57<Zuu>Just don't change NewGRFs in the middle of a game and you should be fine.
18:58<krinn>hmmm, i play ttd original graphism, i'm too use with the icons of the menu, i'm lost with opengfx ones
18:58<Zuu>If you want to play a game with NewGRFs without figuring out which to combine, join #openttdcoop.
18:58-!-lugo [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:00-!-TWerkhoven [] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into]
19:13-!-Biolunar [] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!]
19:14-!-duckblaster [] has joined #openttd
19:19<__ln__>like c'mon, 'leopard' is 'luipaard' in dutch. who's going to take that kind of an animal seriously?
19:19<Zuu>krinn: On forums, please use capitalization and punctnation of your sentenses.
19:20<krinn>i'm editing it for that right now :)
19:22-!-Mazur [] has quit [Quit: Partir, c'est mourir un peu.]
19:23-!-Mazur [] has joined #openttd
19:27-!-Chris_Booth [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:48-!-KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:08-!-Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
20:18<krinn>night all
20:19-!-ar3k [] has joined #openttd
20:22-!-zachanima [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:22-!-zachanima [] has joined #openttd
20:26-!-ar3kaw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:26-!-krinn [] has quit [Quit: Quitte]
20:32-!-AD [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
20:33-!-a1270 [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:35-!-AD [] has joined #openttd
20:36-!-AD is now known as Guest4456
20:37-!-dfox [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:37-!-Chillosophy [] has quit []
20:39<Gniarf>omg, those 2048 x 2048 maps are huge.
20:39<Eddi|zuHause>yes. and still people are asking for even bigger maps
20:44-!-pugi [] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own]
20:56-!-Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:51-!-Sacro [~ben@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:54-!-Sacro [~ben@] has joined #openttd
21:59-!-rellig [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:00-!-Fish-Face [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:14-!-Sacro_ [~ben@] has joined #openttd
22:14-!-Sacro [~ben@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:26-!-rhaeder [] has joined #openttd
22:31-!-rhaeder1 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:06-!-glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:d7c:478e:551e:cc5e] has quit [Quit: bye]
23:12-!-xQR [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:19-!-xQR [] has joined #openttd
23:19-!-a_p3rson [] has joined #openttd
23:20<a_p3rson>is there a way to specify which station gets a certain amount of cargo?
23:22<a_p3rson>like if i have an airport next to a trainstation, both that have vehicles that accept the same amount of cargo, to specify the airport to get more of the cargo?
23:29<DabuYu>as far as i know you can't set that yourself, that's done through the rating the station gets (i suppose)
23:29<DabuYu>you can connect the trainstation and airport as one, if they're very close
---Logclosed Tue Aug 02 00:00:46 2011