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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-08-03

---Logopened Wed Aug 03 00:00:53 2011
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01:02<pikka>oops
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02:38<pikka>foiled by foil!
02:38<pikka>hello andy and other such
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02:53<@planetmaker>moin
02:59<pikka>good morning planetmaker
02:59<pikka>and goodbye, for now!
03:02<@planetmaker>:-) sleep well mr bird
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03:19<pikka>hopefully not, planetmaker, I still have 4 hours of work left. :)
03:32<@planetmaker>:-D Indeed, then better not :-)
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03:51<andythenorth>morgen
03:51<@planetmaker>morning, andythenorth & Alberth
03:51<andythenorth>I want multi-stop docks so much, I started a sock puppet: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=961672#p961672
04:01<@planetmaker>uhm... don't start sock puppets, andythenorth
04:02<andythenorth>yeah - good point :P
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04:19<@planetmaker>andythenorth, mind that it's a feature-request for FISH, not for OpenTTD :-P
04:19<andythenorth>nah not really :)
04:20<andythenorth>I asked for it to be moved
04:20<andythenorth>he's asking for multi-stop docks
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04:32<pikka>new(sea)ports
04:34-!-fjunike [~fjunike@p4FD27D32.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
04:36<@planetmaker>same thing, different name, old desire :-P
04:38<pikka>apparently the av8 thread needs to get back to talking about trains....
04:38<@planetmaker>:-D
04:39<fjunike>hi. "local num_of_groups = group_list.Count();" crashs with clas method is non-static.
04:40<fjunike>how can i solve it?
04:40<@planetmaker>fjunike, if you've got a bug in an official OpenTTD version, it's strongly recommended to use the official bug tracker
04:40<@planetmaker>Otherwise: WAY too little information here
04:41<@planetmaker>(well, also for a bug report it's WAY too little information)
04:41<fjunike>i got no account i try to make one but never got the confimation Email :(
04:42<@planetmaker>did you check spam bin etc?
04:42<fjunike>ever day ;)
04:42<fjunike>+y
04:42*planetmaker does never check that :-P
04:42<fjunike>gg
04:43<@Terkhen>good morning
04:45<@planetmaker>in any case, fjunike: with the amount of information you provide, I doubt anyone will ever be able to help you
04:46<fjunike>i vorgot to tell you the group_list is a list of AIGroupList and i just wont to know haw many groups did the AI own
04:48<@planetmaker>you know... no one here knows your problem... I strongly suggest you take a read at http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html
04:49<fjunike>i also try "local num_of_groups = AIGroupList.Count();"
04:49<@planetmaker>and possibly make a forum posting about it
04:49<@planetmaker>on my part, all things you say are still without any context at all.
04:49<fjunike>the problem? the AI crash at this line
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04:50<@planetmaker>see. That's the first piece of _crucial_ information: it's a crash in *an* AI - not in OpenTTD
04:50<@planetmaker>Next piece: which AI?
04:50<@planetmaker>If custom: what's your code?
04:50<@planetmaker>etc pp.
04:50<@planetmaker>it's not our task to think of what you might have possibly done where.
04:50<@planetmaker>It's your task to provide ALL necessary information to understand your problem
04:50<pikka>fjunike: you need to start with "I'm writing an AI" and go from there
04:51<pikka>also it just got dark in here. darn battery saver.
04:52<@planetmaker>we also have the NoAI forum at tt-forums.net for a reason ;-)
04:52<@planetmaker>also more people might read it there than (currently at this time) in IRC
04:56<pikka>I'm off again, later chaps
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04:57<@planetmaker>enjoy :-)
05:01<fjunike>i found my mistake by myself. i forgot the () behind AIGroupList #(
05:07<dihedral>good morning
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06:05<avaratar>че за?...
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06:09<Eddi|zuHause>i'm leaning towards "no."
06:13<fjunike>is there a function to remove double values in a list?
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06:25<@Alberth>do you have a set?
06:27<fjunike>set? Just helper.nut but i wrote a function by myselfe to do the remove
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06:30<@planetmaker>Alberth, it's NoAI code
06:31<@Alberth>yeah, but I don't know squirrel, so I ask whether it has a set as data structure, as that is the standard way of not having doubles
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07:52<fjunike>its done :)
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08:15<Eddi|zuHause>good appetite then :p
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08:54<Zuu>Oh fjuike just left. Anyway, IIRC you can't add duplicates to AIList.
08:54<Zuu>(on the keys)
08:54<Zuu>Several keys can have the same value of course, but no key duplicates.
08:55<Zuu>When you get eg. an AITownLIst, then the keys are the towns.
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08:57<@planetmaker>should I direct him to you when he returns? ;-)
08:57<@planetmaker>he has somewhat the habit of not mentioning any context to his mutterings
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08:58<flitz>hi
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08:59<flitz>I would like to use some function that is declared static, should I make it non-static and public und some headerfile or should I duplicate the code ?
09:00<flitz>the function is CopyHeadSpecificThings(...) from autoreplace, I don't think there should be any problems if it was globally accessible
09:04<@planetmaker>don't duplicate code. Make it non-static
09:05<@planetmaker>you might consider to make a (new) public accessor, if you don't need everything of the current private function
09:05<flitz>I thought so too. Just wasn't sure whether there is any specific reason for the function being static. Like capsulation or something
09:06<@planetmaker>static allows inlining by the compiler, thus might give some speed advantages. IIRC. Not entirely sure
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09:10<flitz>ah okay, I just know that it is also a scope thing in C because there are no namespaces or classes to encapsulate them in
09:11<@planetmaker>well, maybe I err ;-)
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09:15<insulfrog>hi all
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>making things static makes the job for the linker way easier.
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09:35<flitz>because it doesn't have to look around as much for calls to that function ?
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10:08<Zuu>planetmaker: indeed, he colud post more code, though I managed to figure out the most probable cause of his error before I figured it out in the log. :-)
10:10<Zuu>In Squirrel you can assign types to variables and use those to refer to the types if you want.
10:13<Pikka>scuddles be quiet
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10:18<Scuddles>AAAAAAAA
10:18<@orudge>BBBBBBBB
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12:49<pm2>I hate dDOS on my host providers' clients...
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22712 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: belarusian - 1 changes by Wowanxm
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: latvian - 165 changes by dzhins
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14:20<Wolf01>hello
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15:02<dihedral>http://www.break.com/index/mariachi-band-serenades-a-beluga-whale-2094039
15:02<dihedral>^^
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15:47<krinn>hi
15:49<krinn>i've check and AITile.IsBuildable return false when i check a water tile, my questions are then, if an industry is on a water tile (platform), will AITile.IsWater still answer true or this time false? (same question but with water depot)
15:50<Zuu>I don't know for sure and would recommend making a test.
15:50<andythenorth>beware of coast tiles
15:50<krinn>coast tiles aren't a problem they answer to IsBuildable()
15:51<@planetmaker>IndustryTiles can have a waterclass. But whether the IsWater check actually returns true... needs a source code check
15:51<@Alberth>water is not water when it is buildable ?
15:51<krinn>Alberth, that's my question yes, if it is, we could assume IsWater=true == IsBuildable=true
15:51<Zuu>There is also a AITile.IsWater IIRC
15:52<@planetmaker>krinn: the docs in the source say only when it's a water tile. An industry tile is not a water tile
15:52<frosch123>IsBuildable returns false for both stations and industries
15:52<frosch123>it also returns false for houses, and removable objects
15:52<krinn>i know that frosch123 but it's an answer for non water tile
15:52<@planetmaker>IsWaterTile: return ::IsTileType(tile, MP_WATER) && !::IsCoast(tile);
15:53<@planetmaker>thus only clear water
15:53<krinn>ok IsWater=false when a water depot in on the file, right ?
15:53<krinn> /s/file/tile
15:53<frosch123>oh, sorry
15:54<frosch123>IsWarterTile return true only for water tiles, locks, ship depots, canals
15:54<frosch123>it returns false for industries or objects build on water
15:54<krinn>ah bad
15:54<krinn>so i need to check actually IsWater==true if canals/depot... are their
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15:55<frosch123>the problem with these functions is that it is wery hard to tell what they should actually do :)
15:55<@planetmaker>:-)
15:55<krinn>we lack a IsWaterIsBuildable :)
15:55<@planetmaker>every implementation is wrong (or right)
15:55<@planetmaker>krinn: that's what AI libraries are for ;-)
15:55<@planetmaker>not everything needs to be in the API
15:55<Zuu>Indeed, we don't want a too fat API.
15:55<frosch123>also we always seem to forget to update api functions when adding something new :p
15:56<frosch123>like objects
15:56<krinn>Zuu, you have such function ?
15:56<Zuu>Yea, where is the NoAI NewObject API?
15:56<Zuu>krinn: No, I haven't worked with water.
15:56<Zuu>There is a library with buyo functions. Take a look there.
15:57<Zuu>MinchinWeb's MetaLibrary: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=53698
15:58<Zuu>at least from what I remember when I read its in-game bananas description.
15:58<krinn>lol requires superlib
15:59<krinn>i'll have a look to see if he handle that or make my own function
16:00<Zuu>On the other hand, regarding NewObjects, AIs can't buy land at the moment so perhaps NewObjects could be explained as a more pretty way of buying land and thus a reason why AIs can't use it. :-)
16:01<Zuu>krinn: Not sure if the MetaLibrary requires SuperLib or if it is just the AI.
16:01<frosch123>Zuu: there are objects which can be just removed like half road pieces by just building over them
16:02<frosch123>maybe such objects should report true for IsBuildable
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16:02<Zuu>frosch123: NewObject objects?
16:02<frosch123>however, if they are on water, maybe they shall report IsWater instead :p
16:02<krinn>Zuu, seems not you're right, but he only add some kind of pathfinding in it, others functions are taken by your lib
16:02<frosch123>Zuu: yes
16:02<frosch123>though argueable there are none released :p
16:02<Zuu>krinn: Yep, probably because SuperLib 7 didn't have pathfinding yet ;-)
16:03<krinn>gonna check AIWater to see possible failure to build on water
16:03<Zuu>Nowdays SuperLib have functions to: Bulid road from A to B, build road station in town X, build road station for industry Y. So one could write a very short and simple AI with it.
16:04<krinn>hmmm, like a tutorialAI :)
16:05<Zuu>Yep, for that one I included pathfinding in SuperLib.
16:06<Zuu>frosch123: Those on land, are they overbuildable by any kind of infrastructure or just road?
16:06<krinn>planetmaker, AIList.Valuate convert true/false to value right ?
16:07<@planetmaker>krinn: I have to look up all those things, too ;-)
16:07<Zuu>krinn: It convert true to 1 and false to 0.
16:07<Zuu>As written in the docs/wiki.
16:07<krinn>that's what i was reminding yep, thx guys
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16:15<krinn>i'm good at digging things that doesn't exist :)
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16:19<frosch123>Zuu: they are like rocky land
16:20<frosch123>they are just more expensive to clear
16:20<frosch123>but you do not need to bulldoze them
16:20<frosch123>however, for objects these things can also exist on water
16:22<Zuu>So they are like what we already got as farmland and rocky terrain. In principle they would be buildable then.
16:22<Zuu>For farmland there IIRC exist a function IsFarmLand or similar.
16:23<Zuu>Which some AIs use in their path-finders to avoid farmland.
16:24<Zuu>In general, the API do not have cost functions, instead it rely on the accounting and test mode for cost queries. Maybe it might be motivated to have a CostToClear function as that one I guess would not cost a DoCommand which I guess a test-build would do even if it is in test-mode.
16:26<Zuu>Oh, the API have access to some base costs nowdays.
16:27<krinn>it's new i think, the GetBuildCost one ?
16:27<Zuu>these base costs are supported: http://noai.openttd.org/api/1.1.1/classAITile.html#133f5d7f78a0b1aae62c2bdbde9c0056
16:27<Zuu>krinn: Yes afaik
16:28<krinn>but it's new to 1.1 i think
16:28<frosch123>Zuu: it needs a test command
16:29<frosch123>though cost estimation of ais would fail anyway for objects just like it does for ottd
16:29<frosch123>if you clear multitile objects you have to pay the amount to clear the whole object
16:29<Zuu>So, using clear-cost to avoid certain tiles would be very expansive to use in a pathfinder even if it moves into the API.
16:30<frosch123>but you also have to pay it only once even when building over multiple tiles
16:34<Zuu>So (continuing on my theory), if cost estimation at each tile would slow down pathfinding alot, AIs need some way to identify NewObjects using attributes rather than executing a DoCommand in test-mode.
16:34<Zuu>Perhaps IsObject?
16:34<Zuu>Or could there be any NewObject that makes building over it benefitical?
16:35<krinn>NewObjects are what (sorry to disturb) some fancy objects newGRF can use and drop but still destroyable (like say a little statue or things like that)?
16:35<krinn>like trees, buildable by anyone, but removable by anyone
16:36<Zuu>But I guess at least the situation that a free to clear NewObject could happen. Thus if the AIs mark all Objects evil, then it will faulty take a longer distance around some tiles.
16:37<Zuu>krinn: NewGRF spec: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Main_Page <-- see pages for "Objects"
16:39<Zuu>Here's the NML spec of NewObjects: http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/objects.html
16:39<frosch123>krinn: objects may be destroyable like rocky land, or like houses (i.e. not "Buildable" in ai terms). they may be on land, water or both
16:40<frosch123>so a IsObject tile test is bad, as it is easy to miss the water test
16:40<krinn>shit, if one makes lion statues as newObject, my ai won't be able to drop two of them in front of my HQ :)
16:40<frosch123>the problem of all these IsXYZ functions is, that some tiles are just multiple things :)
16:41<Zuu>frosch123: How about AITile.IsClear? Would return true only on tiles without trees, objects, stations etc.
16:41<frosch123>water?
16:41<Zuu>would be clear I guess
16:42<Zuu>I guess HasTreeOnTile will never return true if the tile has something like a house or rock on it.
16:43<krinn>a IsClearOfObject ? would answer to a tile not checking its status (land/water or anything): just answer got some object yes/no
16:43<frosch123>Zuu: we had the same problem with trees on shore
16:43<@planetmaker>krinn: but... what about an object called "company owned land"?
16:44<@planetmaker>wouldn't you want it to return "free"?
16:44<frosch123>they are reported as both shore and trees now
16:44<Zuu>So shore-tiles have water according to IsWater?
16:44<frosch123>but what to do with rail on a halftile foundations with water on the lower side?
16:44<frosch123>it is a railtile, but even ships can travel on it
16:44<krinn>planetmaker, no, if it's an object, return false
16:44<frosch123>and bulldozing is really expensive
16:44<@planetmaker>which reminds me... now with adv. sprite layouts I should be able to much more easily fence that...
16:44<frosch123>Zuu: no, shores do not count as water
16:45<krinn>but the question is can we always remove the objects or not?
16:45<frosch123>krinn: you cannot remove houses always either
16:45<frosch123>it depends on the object
16:45<frosch123>so, the api might actually hide the objects from the ais
16:46<@planetmaker>the "behave like fields" type is easily removed. Others not
16:46<frosch123>and just report them as houses or farmland
16:46<krinn>but doing so, ai will be blind against them
16:46<Zuu>I see the problem with the diagonal rail tile that also has water. Though, I also see that the function to get transport type is formulated as HasTransportType rather than GetTransportType.
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16:47<@planetmaker>Zuu: those tiles are not only a pain for AIs. It's also quite a nasty piece of code wrt drawing
16:47<frosch123>Zuu: yeah, that is also needed for level crossings :)
16:49<krinn>it's nasty to have bit 3+4 (irremovable+anything can remove)
16:49<krinn>it's nasty to have bit 0+1 (irremovable+anything can remove)
16:50<krinn>grr actualy it's 1+2
16:51<krinn>shouldn't it just be clear for anyone can remove and set if irremovable?
16:53<frosch123>it's always nice if the most used value is 0
16:53<krinn>if i get it right: ai would then be force to do "lame" : raise tile corner to get the object clear, lower it = don't use buldozer but remove it
16:54<krinn>with a x25 cost to raise the tile
16:54<frosch123>what?
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16:54<frosch123>i think you don't get it right :p
16:54<krinn>a little note says : irremoable object can be remove but not with buldozer
16:54<krinn>Object cannot be removed through normal dynamite, control must be held and the removal cost will be multiplied by 25 (this is the usual behaviour for most class A objects in TTDPatch).
16:55<krinn>that's a part i don't get clear :)
16:55<frosch123>krinn: that translates as "magic bulldozer" for ottd
16:55<CIA-2>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22713 /trunk/src/ (17 files in 3 dirs): -Feature: [NewGRF] Per vehicle custom cargo ageing period.
16:55<frosch123>and is not available for ais
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16:55<frosch123>there are also certain houses which are generally not removable for ais, but for humans
16:55<@planetmaker>krinn: magic bulldozer
16:55<krinn>it's a cheat feature no ?
16:55<@planetmaker>yes
16:55<frosch123>a human only cheat :p
16:56<krinn>kinda strange to build a spec over a cheat
16:56<@planetmaker>why?
16:56<frosch123>krinn: it just says that the cheat circumvents the restriction of the grf
16:56<krinn>well, it's a cheat, who cares to have right to do things or not, it's a cheat, just remove it without taking care about a "can my cheat do that" status?
16:57<frosch123>there is no flag "do not allow magic bulldozer" either
16:57<Zuu>@commit 22713 above: even more complexity :)
16:57<@DorpsGek>Zuu: Invalid arguments for _commit.
16:57<frosch123>krinn: that's exactly what it says, isn't it?
16:57<krinn>it's also strange to says x25 to remove it, x25 chat? the human cheat, he just click and get more money who will cares about cost ?
16:57<@planetmaker>Zuu: quite so ;-)
16:57<@planetmaker>I guess it'll need NoAI accessors
16:58<frosch123>krinn: the spec is shared with ttdpatch, that line does not apply to ottd
16:58<@planetmaker>it's targeted at differing local vs. long-distance coaches
16:58<@planetmaker>and similar
16:58<frosch123>magic bulldozer is always free
16:58<frosch123>ttdp has the weird assumption that cheats shall cost money, so you have to also use the money cheat :p
16:58<@planetmaker>:-)
16:58<krinn>lol, strange concept
16:59<krinn>and we endup with "cheat" bit in newGRF spec, weird
17:00<frosch123>i still don't get whats wrong with explaining the effect of a cheat in a footnote
17:00<frosch123>footnotes are for explaining additional stuff
17:01<krinn>it's clearer now
17:01<krinn>but i didn't expect to see a bit use for a cheat
17:01<krinn>it's strange to have a spec to control a cheat, that by def is to bypass spec :)
17:02<Zuu>krinn: Which flag are you talking about? The OBJ_FLAG_IRREMOVABLE flag?
17:02<krinn>yes
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17:02<Zuu>I don't see how it specify how cheating should behaviour.
17:02<krinn>note that i know 0 to newGRF, i just discover the page you sent me
17:02<Zuu>All it says is that you can't remove the object.
17:03<krinn>well if you look at bit 2 note, it says you can remove it, with extra x25 cost
17:03<Zuu>The cheat exist to override it, in case you really want, but it is not intended that you should do that in normal gameplay.
17:03<krinn>and your not surprise to see a spec saying : it's ok to cheat to remove that object but with extra cost of x25 ?
17:04<Zuu>Not really. I mean the cheat to remove "unremovables" have existed for ages. For those who don't take the challenge to play with the landscape and aronud the obstacles.
17:05<krinn>i wasn't thinking the cheat "checks" for an agree to cheat
17:07<Zuu>In TTDPatch there existed (and probably still do) a cheat to change rail type. As for what I remember, there was requests to make that cheat cost money.
17:08<Zuu>The cheat changed railtype of all your rail at one go.
17:08<Zuu>And thus saved you from rebuilding all rail (and building all signals one by one again)
17:09<krinn>lol and they also check memory to see one isn't using an +X trainer to cheat :)
17:10<Zuu>No idea what an +X trainer exactly is.
17:10<krinn>a cheat program
17:10<krinn>because like it is, it looks like, you are allow to cheat but it will cost you money ! But you are also allow to cheat to get money :p
17:13<frosch123>[23:05] <krinn> i wasn't thinking the cheat "checks" for an agree to cheat <- please read again, the specs say exactly that it does _NOT_ ask for agreement
17:14<frosch123>the bit says: disallow removal by anything but the cheat
17:15<krinn>whaooo took me time: i see why they are two now :)
17:16<krinn>bit 1 set = none can remove it, bit 2 set anyone could, bit 2 unset = only owner can remove ?
17:16<krinn>must be why the two bits instead of just 1
17:17<@planetmaker>nice, one step closer now to CETS, michi_cc :-)
17:19<Zuu>planetmaker: CETS?
17:19<krinn>i don't know who/what is CETS even i suspect michi_cc is someone
17:20<Zuu>michi_cc is for sure a person
17:20<Zuu>I can assure you ;-)
17:20<krinn>guessing newGRF specs authors
17:20<@planetmaker>Zuu: central european train set - a tentative name for a newgrf...
17:20<@planetmaker>look through devzone projects
17:20<Zuu>okay
17:21<@planetmaker>with wagons the length of one tile (and not 1/2)
17:21<krinn>better than google answer: Child Exploitation Tracking System :)
17:22<@planetmaker>Currently it's a NewGRF without sprites ;-)
17:22<@planetmaker>well... without sprites different than boxes ;-)
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17:23<krinn>i see trouble coming for ai author with that CETS
17:23<__ln__>damn, i just figured out there's a direct flight connection to Leipzig/Halle from here, but it's unfortunately cargo only
17:24<@planetmaker>__ln__: just send a big parcel :-P
17:25<krinn>a crate + live animal ?
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: DHL?
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>DHL moved its distribution center for europe and africa from brussels to halle/leipzig
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>so all DHL planes go to and from there
17:27<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: the airline was listed as "Imperial Air Cargo", not sure whom does it fly for. (the emperor?!?)
17:28<__ln__>there's a TNT terminal here at least.
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>they have two other such hubs, one for america and one for asia
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17:55<@planetmaker>good night
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17:56<krinn>gn
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18:06<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc has this stealth-patching totally figured out :p
18:07<Wolf01>'night all
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18:14<frosch123>night
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18:26<@Terkhen>good night
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18:44<Zuu>Wohoo! .Net 4 seems to have gone broken on my machine. :-)
18:48-!-Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing]
18:48<Zuu>At another computer .Net 3.5 break when I upgraded a program and when trying to resolve it using the methods that Microsoft suggest, my list of installed programs became empty. :-)
18:50<Zuu>(microsoft solution to a corupt .Net is to uninstall all .Net versions all way down to .Net 1 and then re-installing them.)
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18:53<krinn>feel lucky, they didn't not ask you to reinstall windows :)
18:53<Zuu>well, that was what I choosed to do rather than spending time on something I wasn't sure would solve the issue.
18:54<krinn>i hope it's not an issue that came a lot
18:54*Zuu hopes too
18:57<krinn>zuu: trying to raise townrating, doc says i need to plants tree, and even might remove them before to have the place to re-plant behind
18:57<krinn>this works?
18:57<Zuu>Yes, see wiki
18:57<Zuu>game mechanics
18:57<krinn>that's what i see yeah
18:58<krinn>i can just pickup a place and plant/remove/replants until i reach a valid TR so?
18:58<Zuu>That feature/cheat has been around since the beginning, nothing revolutionary.
18:59<krinn>i suppose everyone do like that so
18:59<Zuu>The trick is to do it over a larger area that is within town influence
19:00<Zuu>It's way cheaper than bribing the town :-)
19:00<krinn>and we cannot bribe town sometimes
19:00<Zuu>Anyway, I still have the chance to beat yesterdays night time. So I'm off to bed.
19:01<krinn>good night
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---Logclosed Thu Aug 04 00:00:55 2011