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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-08-07

---Logopened Sun Aug 07 00:00:16 2011
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02:11<andythenorth>yay
02:12*andythenorth didn't get up until *7am*
02:12<Rubidium>good boy ;)
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02:28<andythenorth>what order is best for FISH buy menu?
02:29<andythenorth>smallest - largest?
02:29<andythenorth>grouped by type?
02:29<andythenorth>(for the default sort)
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03:22<@planetmaker>moin
03:24<@planetmaker>http://imagebin.org/166769 <-- this "road" would be well suited for the new HEQS... if it only were a real road
03:35*andythenorth dreams of roadtypes
03:35<andythenorth>and also horses
03:35<andythenorth>there should be horses
03:37<@planetmaker>egrvts has them
03:38<andythenorth>egrvts is broken
03:38<andythenorth>and none of us want to fix it :P
03:38<@planetmaker>yes
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04:32<@Terkhen>good morning
04:34<__ln__>
04:35<SmatZ>hello Terkhen
04:38-!-perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd
04:40<Coke>any of u playing right now? :)
04:41-!-Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
04:41<__ln__>interesting that both john malkovich and 'claire from lost' are in this town right now, and not even for the same project.
04:42<@Alberth>for some forms of 'playing', yes
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04:57<Coke>Alberth: i was thinking openttd, silly billy. ;)
04:58-!-robotx [~robotx@pat-36.wireless.bristol.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
04:59<@Alberth>I guessed as much, but most people that actually write messages here play other games, mostly coding and painting pixels
04:59<Coke>Sonds cool.
05:00<@Alberth>you're welcome to come and play too if you like :)
05:07<Coke>I am :)
05:07<@planetmaker>there's lots of servers around where people play. Just checkout some and stick around where you like it
05:07<Coke>I'm currently using the 32bpp version
05:07<Coke>My buddy tried connecting, but the original client says the versions are different.
05:07<Coke>Is there any chance of this 32bpp being part of upstream and compatible with other servers/clients?
05:07<@planetmaker>you don't need a special version to use 32bpp
05:07<frosch123>yes, versions need to match exactly
05:08<@planetmaker>(why do people always confuse extra zoom with 32bpp support?)
05:08<__ln__>SmatZ: 14:20 < frosch123> andythenorth: every os needs to be at least smatz enough to deal with the crappy hardware
05:08<Coke>planetmaker: no? the extra zoom feature install page instructs me to get it
05:08<Coke>yeah.
05:08<Coke>planetmaker: because it's not exactly clear the two are separate
05:08<Coke>but thanks for enlightening me
05:08<@planetmaker>yes, the extra zoom people make people believe it's synomymous. It's not
05:08<@planetmaker>OpenTTD supports 32bpp for years actually
05:09<@planetmaker>but still, nowhere a complete 32bpp graphics set exists
05:09<Coke>Cool. But that extra level of zoom helps when youre on a 1920x1080 screen and play windowed mode
05:09<@planetmaker>well, but those version are not compatible with normal builds ;-)
05:10<SmatZ>:D
05:10<Coke>extra zoom is on 1.1.0
05:11<Coke>how come it isn't part of upstream? not stable enough?
05:11<@planetmaker>not finished enough
05:11<@planetmaker>and there's no extra zoom in 1.1.0
05:12<Coke>planetmaker: ok, but perhaps one day the upstream openttd will have such a feature?
05:12<frosch123>that was said 5 years ago
05:12<@planetmaker>quite probably. The question is "when"
05:13<Coke>does it require lots of changes?
05:14<frosch123>depend on who you ask :p
05:14<Coke>i dont really need the fancy graphics, just one more level of zoom would be enough
05:14<frosch123>that part is more likely to hit official versions somewhen
05:14<Ammler>use a OS, which supports zooming
05:15<frosch123>Coke: btw. you can increase the font size in official versions
05:15<frosch123>and there is also a ogfx big gui newgrf, though there are still lots of problems with it
05:20<@planetmaker>hm... another neglected point... we need static newgrf support
05:20<@planetmaker>though the bigGUI imho preferentially becomes part of the GUI itself
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05:25<Wolf01>helo
05:25<Wolf01>+l
05:28<SmatZ>hello Wolf01
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05:39<Coke>does the game mechanics include transfers? if I build a station in nowhere will passengers get off and wait for another train?
05:40<@planetmaker>not automatically
05:40<@planetmaker>look for transfer orders
05:41<@planetmaker>it's different if you play with a version which features cargo destinations... but those are (again) not default openttd versions. Though they're fun
05:41<@planetmaker>loads of fun
05:45-!-Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd
05:47<Coke>playing the normal openttd now
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05:58<Coke>I seem to remember finding a list of commodity transport tariffs/prices in the wiki, but cant find it. Anyone want to buy me a clue what to google for?
05:58<duckblaster1>it's available in game
05:59<duckblaster1>graphs -> cargo payment rates
05:59<Coke>thanks a lot!
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06:12-!-KittenKoder [~kitten@174-24-255-9.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #openttd
06:13<KittenKoder>Is planetmaker active right now?
06:13<Rubidium>I hope at least parts of planetmaker are active at the moment
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06:52<Noxbru>Hi, I have a question about Lists, is it always necessary to use "foreach ( item, *VALUE* in item_list)" to walk lists ?
06:53<frosch123>you can also use valuators
06:55<frosch123>and there is "for (local i = list.Begin(); !list.IsEnd(); i = list.Next()) {"
06:56<frosch123>i.e. every list has some build-in iterator
06:56<Noxbru>ah, ok, I just wanted to avoid that much code but seems that at the end it was a failure
06:57<frosch123>valuators are most likely the most elegant way
06:57<frosch123>though you cannot use them always
06:57<Noxbru>ok, I just wanted to walk the list and extract the IDs to some extern variables
06:58<KittenKoder>Okies, sorry for that lapse in response. >.<
06:58<KittenKoder>Digging through documentation.
06:59<KittenKoder>Anyone have a good NML example of rail replacement?
06:59<frosch123>swedish rails
06:59<KittenKoder>Well, replacement+expanding of types would be nice, but I can figure out most of it with just one decent example.
07:00<KittenKoder>The source?
07:00<frosch123>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/swedishrails
07:00<frosch123>click on repository
07:00<frosch123>browse online, or clone
07:01<Noxbru>yes, in the documentation says that you can use "foreach (town, value in townlist) { }" but i just wanted to know if I have to add the *value* thing, because i haven't used any valuator on the list
07:01<Noxbru>and at the doc of AIList there isn't any info about "foreach"
07:02<KittenKoder>Aha, found it, TY
07:02<frosch123>Noxbru: just ignore 'val' then
07:02<frosch123>that is you have to specify some "val" in the foreach statement, but you do not have to use it
07:03<Noxbru>that's what I'm doing now, thanks!
07:04<KittenKoder>Going to work on a new Maglev track, and maybe even some made up trains .... for personal use but I'll post it all on the forums, I promise.
07:05<frosch123>swedish rails is gplv2
07:05<Noxbru>I was asking that because checking the code of the RoadPathfinder, there's a couple of "foreach (item in item_list)" without any reference to value
07:05<frosch123>so, if you base your work on it, and release it, you have to use gplv2 as well
07:06<frosch123>Noxbru: i do not know that syntax, but i do not know a lot about squirrel. i can only read the api code :)
07:07<frosch123>your best chance is to hope that zuu will join somewhen today
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07:07<frosch123>yexo is still on the road
07:08<Noxbru>ok, thanks a lot anyway (^_^) I use to code in C and this C++/Squirrel thing is a bit new for me
07:12<Noxbru>see you later
07:12<KittenKoder>Not basing my work on anything, just needed an example of how it's done.
07:12<KittenKoder>I learn better that way, oddly.
07:13<Noxbru>and thanks again frosch123
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07:13<KittenKoder>Now, I just need the base terrain graphics. >.<
07:13<KittenKoder>Though ....
07:13<frosch123>new railtypes work with overlay
07:13<frosch123>you do not need the grass
07:14<frosch123>just make those parts transparent
07:14<KittenKoder>Oh, sweet, so I just draw the tracks filled in with all transparent color now.
07:14<KittenKoder>Should have been a question. >.<
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07:18<CIA-2>OpenTTD: smatz * r22728 /trunk/config.lib: -Codechange: add -Wno-narrowing to cxxflags in order to prevent many useless warnings with GCC 4.7
07:22<KittenKoder>TY frosch123.
07:27<robotz>does a openttd port to tablets (ipad/touchpad) already exist?
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07:29<frosch123>many ports came and went
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07:29<frosch123>no idea whether there is a current one
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07:30<Rubidium>I doubt there will be a current ipad port; after all, the public for it is pretty small as you'd need a jailbroken ipad
07:31<Rubidium>and even then, all comments I heard from ipad users is that the buttons are too small
07:32<havanab>i see, actually I m more interested in Touchpad. ok, too small buttons is bad for touch control
07:34<havanab>but thanks for enlightenment
07:35<Rubidium>in any case, in most cases porting is relatively trivial: get the required libraries compiled for the device and the right (gcc) cross-compiler and compile
07:35<KittenKoder>Wasn't there a "big" GUI GRF out?
07:36<Ammler>you didn't really search?
07:37<Rubidium>KittenKoder: most buttons are bigger than busses. If you can't hit a button at normal scale, then you can't hit the bus either
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07:38<KittenKoder>:p
07:38<Rubidium>and when building with the autorail/autoroad tools it starts to need even more precision
07:38<KittenKoder>I just saw it on the list once, that's all.
07:38<Rubidium>and those are things the big gui grf doesn't/can't do anything about
07:38<KittenKoder>Yeah.
07:38<KittenKoder>I don't get touch screen myself anyway.
07:39<KittenKoder>Fingerprints on my monitor. >.< Eeew.
07:41<havanab>Ammler: aren't you from the german community?
07:41<Ammler>hehe, got it :-P
07:44<havanab>i think i played with you ~2 years ago on your(?) server, :)
07:47<Ammler>I run for about a year a tt-ms.de server
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>you mean the swiss forum :p
07:51<havanab>the "german speaking" forum hehe
07:51<havanab>the tt-ms server was cool indeed
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08:00<TheNewTeddy>hello?
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08:01<__ln__>...
08:01<__ln__>canadians
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08:04<frosch123>a candian at this time on a sunday? he probably just came home :p
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>if i came home at 8am, i wouldn't go on IRC...
08:08-!-Illegal_Alien [~Illegal_A@ip4da39612.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd
08:09<frosch123>yes, you might not remember it later on :p
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08:15<Eddi|zuHause>i might not _want_ to remember :p
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08:40<KittenKoder>Anyone know if tracks can have company color schemes?
08:41<frosch123>no, only the fences
08:41<frosch123>and the depot maybe
08:41<KittenKoder>Okies, ty
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08:51<TrueBrain>owh, not 10 days ago I did it too, but today I do it again: OpenDUNE 0.6 released :D:D:D:D /me makes a happy dance
08:52<__ln__>TrueBrain: remember to dance without a rhythm
08:52<Rubidium>oh... does it have free graphics already? ;)
08:52<+glx>of course not
08:53<TrueBrain>Rubidium: you volunteering? :)
08:53<TrueBrain>you know what is funny, that all main distros have accepted 'opengfx' as package .. it just makes me smile :)
08:53<TrueBrain>not openttd-opengfx, no, just opengfx :p
08:53*Rubidium ponders what the main distros are
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>> zypper search opengfx
08:54<Rubidium>it can't include arch, debian, fedora or ubuntu
08:54<Eddi|zuHause> | openttd-opengfx | Default replacement graphics for OpenTTD | Paket
08:54<TrueBrain>did I wrote main? Lol: my :D
08:55<TrueBrain>gentoo has it :p
08:55<Prof_Frink>i A openttd-opengfx
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>no, i don't have it installed
08:55<Rubidium>gentoo, freebsd and sabayon have it named opengfx
08:55<KittenKoder>I know, a bit bland, but easier to see what's what. :p http://rpgcn.com/backups/Track.png
08:55<TrueBrain>its weird (and maybe clsoe to stupid :p)
08:55<TrueBrain>bu it made me smile :)
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>KittenKoder: might be a little high
08:56<TrueBrain>so I tried opengfx with OpenDUNE, but it was ugly :P :D *troll*
08:56<Rubidium>only debian (+ derivates) have openmsx though (of set: arch, debian, fedora, freebsd, gentoo, opensuse, sabayon, slackware & ubuntu)
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>since when is opensuse a debian-derivate?
08:56<KittenKoder>Okies, well this is a rough rendering, but it's my first try. Eddi|zuHause
08:57-!-andythenorth [~Andy@host109-154-164-71.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:57<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: http://oswatershed.org/pkg/openttd-openmsx <- it's not listed there
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>KittenKoder: mind that you cannot change the offset of the vehicles, so they might drive next to the rails
08:57<TrueBrain>Rubidium: gentoo also has openmsx
08:57<TrueBrain>just not related to OpenTTD :P
08:57<Rubidium>TrueBrain: not in the list I mentioned before, nor in http://oswatershed.org/pkg/openmsx
08:58<TrueBrain>OpenMSX is an MSX Emulator, so it seems :p
08:58<TrueBrain>no clue what MSX is
08:58<KittenKoder>I'll see what it will do.
08:58<Rubidium>TrueBrain: old game computer of some sorts
08:58<KittenKoder>The only reason I don't like the default maglev tracks is that it's hard to tell where the tracks are in junctions.
---Logclosed Sun Aug 07 09:04:56 2011
---Logopened Sun Aug 07 09:05:05 2011
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09:06*Rubidium wonders whether all the IPv6-ies just got disconnected ;)
09:07-!-Irssi: Join to #openttd was synced in 166 secs
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>probably the IPv6 server went down :p
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09:14<frosch123>i thought it were all on resistance.oftc.net charm.oftc.net
09:14<frosch123>well, one of those
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09:18<Rubidium>frosch123: the majority of the netsplit definitely (have) used IPv6 connections
09:18<Rubidium>which is somewhat odd given the penetration of IPv6 is in the percents (if it already reaches 1%)
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>well, 5 of 108 is definitely more than 1% :p
09:23<Rubidium>hmm, true... maybe we're somewhat more tech savy
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09:23<Rubidium>even then, <10% vs >50% is quite significant
09:23*glx was not affected by the split
09:24*andythenorth misses consists :|
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09:46<andythenorth>how would I use an AI as a collaborator?
09:46<andythenorth>maintaining bus routes is boring
09:49<Ammler>with is
09:51<@Terkhen>create an AI company and use cheats to move to that company
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10:04<KittenKoder>I just use fewer buses.
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10:31<Eddi|zuHause>stupid idea of mine: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/alternate_fence_calculation.diff
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>before: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2026.%20Apr%201988.png
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>after: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%202.%20Mai%201988.png
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10:34<Ammler>nice
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>two changes: 1) the fences don't depend on neighbouring trackbits anymore, only on owner, 2) it also considers neighbouring objects etc.
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>2) should probably get an exception for road
10:40<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: looks great
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>these small fences in the middle of junctions always annoyed me, that's why i play without fences most of the time
10:42<Hirundo>KittenKoder: As of 1 minute ago, the NML repository contains an example railtype grf
10:43<Hirundo>Thought, you might wanted to know :)
10:44<KittenKoder>Woohoo!
10:44<KittenKoder>Erm ... what's the link? >.<
10:45<KittenKoder>Found it. LOL
10:45<KittenKoder>... and thank you so much.
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>conceptual question: can we make GetTileOwner return OWNER_NONE on void tiles and OWNER_TOWN on house and industry tiles, instead of asserting?
10:58<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: so when you put a road next to your rail it gets no fence?
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: currently, yes, but that should probably change.
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: it's rather meant to be for stations, objects, purchased land, ...
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11:19<andythenorth>could use-of-YACD be exposed to newgrf?
11:19<andythenorth>e.g. var for 'routing mechanism in this game: original | yacd | [reserved]
11:21<Rubidium>isn't there a feature bit for that?
11:21<Rubidium>or has JGR failed to add that to ttdp?
11:22<andythenorth>I wasn't aware of one :o
11:22<andythenorth>FIRS + yacd is annoying - somewhat good, somewhat bad
11:22<Rubidium>ah... there is one
11:22<andythenorth>I am thinking of increasing initial production at some primary industries when yacd is enabled
11:23<andythenorth>I could do a parameter, but parameters suck :P
11:24<Rubidium>newcargodistribution it what you need to check for
11:24<Rubidium>(var 85)
11:29<andythenorth>is that documented? I looked...
11:29<Rubidium>it is, otherwise I wouldn't have known the name ;)
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11:41<andythenorth>consist management would be really useful for cases like this (this is one train from a shared orders group)
11:41<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/consists_mmmm.png
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11:46<Eddi|zuHause>update now, adjacent road will force a fence: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/alternate_fence_calculation_2.diff
11:46*Rubidium wonders whether 2 HP / ton is realistic for rail travel
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: depends on top speed
11:47<Rubidium>as any somewhat recent car is at least to 50 HP / ton
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>cars are hopelessly overpowered ;)
11:48<andythenorth>http://forums.auran.com/trainz/archive/index.php/t-55876.html
11:49<andythenorth>http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/188661.aspx
11:51<andythenorth>the krug has a page too
11:51<andythenorth>http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/hp_te.htm
11:51<andythenorth>if you like trains, you'll like al krug ;)
11:51<Rubidium>oh, so it's "within" normal realistic operating range
11:57<frosch123>why is that page using so silly units?
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12:02*andythenorth is still reading the krug page
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12:05<andythenorth>YACD is a good case for a year-length patch :P
12:06<andythenorth>I'm only just getting started on my network, and 50 years are gone :P
12:06<Coke>hey guys, is there a better explanation of the signals than the wiki page?
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>there are many places that explain signals
12:07<Coke>all i use is the block and entry signal
12:07<frosch123>Coke: http://uwe.s2000.at/ttdx/signal/index.php?lang=en&filter=ottd
12:07<Coke>havent encountered any scenarios where i need anything else yet
12:07<Coke>thanks
12:08<frosch123>i think there are also youtube video tutirals
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12:08<KittenKoder>PBS signals are the best.
12:08<Coke>they anything like PMS?
12:08<Coke>like, red light = don't go there
12:08<KittenKoder>Anyhoo ... What does this mean? "Encountered an incorrect type of reference: 'track_underlays'"
12:13<Coke>hm. still dont gt the exit and combo signals
12:14<KittenKoder>Oh, I figured it out, I must have an old version of NML.
12:16<Hirundo>Yes, example does not work on old nml
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>Coke: http://kokolokus.de/?s=blog&v=6
12:17<KittenKoder>Okay, now I just have some graphics problems to work out. ^_^ Woohoo! I'm getting there.
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12:36<__ln__>truck: http://pkio.kapsi.fi/rails/20110807tus/IMG_8586.JPG cabin: http://pkio.kapsi.fi/rails/20110807tus/IMG_8580.JPG
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>not good.
12:40<Coke>Eddi|zuHause: guess i have to play a bit more to get it
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: looks like a horribly unsecure crossing
12:43<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: yes, but the speeds are slow, as the track ends maybe 300 metres after that point.
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: where is that? it's a border of some kind, but the sign is not decipherable
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>i guess it's near a ferry
12:46<__ln__>it's over here, in Turku. (not my photos though). it's a harbour, yes.
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12:46<__ln__>the only place in finland where you can get to a harbour with a passenger train nowadays.
12:47<__ln__>the truck driver had at least 1.2 per mil of alcohol in his blood.
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>ouch
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>but apparently the cab wasn't hit, the trailer was hit and then pushed the cab off the driving unit
12:48<Coke>is it possible to change the signal without destroying the rail?
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>Coke: yes, ctrl+click on it with the signal tool
12:48<Coke>yep
12:48<__ln__>the driver was not seriously injured, and no one in the train either.
12:48<Coke>just saw it trying keys randomly :)
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>Coke: or use the "convert signal" button in the gui
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13:01<KittenKoder>I can't find the maglev values in the documentation for NML, such as used for item(FEAT_RAILTYPES, ???)
13:02<andythenorth>hmm
13:03*andythenorth designs an economy for FIRS: secondary fund cost is low, almost no secondaries get built at map gen
13:03<andythenorth>player must be industry tycoon as well :P
13:04<KittenKoder>Bah.
13:04<KittenKoder>I'd still manage a million in 20 years.
13:04<KittenKoder>:p
13:10<andythenorth>not with YACD
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: interesting, but tertiary industries (shops, hotels, etc.) should still be automatically be built
13:13<andythenorth>yes
13:13<andythenorth>I don't want to have to build the whole economy
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13:18<KittenKoder>I'm about to give up on this.
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>KittenKoder: what kind of infromation do you seek?
13:22<KittenKoder>The values needed to replace the maglev tracks.
13:23<KittenKoder>For NML
13:23<KittenKoder>I think label is MLEV, but can't find that again.
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>have you checked the newgrf-specs wiki?
13:24<Coke>what is dragging signal density?
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>Coke: places a signal every X tiles when you click+drag (straight line) or ctrl+click+drag (follow curves)
13:27<KittenKoder>TY Eddi|zuHause ... don't know why I forgot that page.
13:29<George>Hi.
13:29<George>Wiki says Supported by OpenTTD 1.2 (r22518)1.2 Adding 0x40 makes the layout an Advanced Spritelayout with register modifiers (to be documented).
13:29<George>Is there any partial documentation?
13:30<George>Some forum discussion or something to read about?
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>George: have you checked the newgrf-technical forum?
13:32<George>I read the first pages list of topica and did not find any that sounds like that
13:33<Coke>Eddi|zuHause: ah, cool.
13:33<frosch123>George: http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Advanced_Sprite_Layout
13:33<Coke>thanks a lot for the info!
13:33<frosch123>the only documentation till now
13:33<frosch123>it will be integrated into the official specs at some time
13:33<Coke>Is there any way I can help out my bad eye sight short of using a magnifying glass?
13:34<George>frosch123: Thank you. Does it work with the trunk?
13:34<Coke>The semaphores pixels are so tough to see, in particular from behind
13:34<frosch123>yes
13:34<frosch123>George: though the examples in the wiki are not actually tested
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>Coke: get a version from 5 years ago and press Ctrl+D
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>Coke: or switch to fullscreen and set lower resolution
13:35<Coke>I play in windowed mode.
13:35<Coke>Is there a toggle button in game?
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>alt+enter
13:35<Coke>wow.
13:36<Coke>ok. ill try that.
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>or in the game settings window
13:39<Coke>that worked out nicely
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22729 /trunk/src/lang/romanian.txt:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: romanian - 2 changes by tonny
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14:27<KittenKoder>You know, Ubuntu is garbage now ... it use to be so cool ... but there is no point in even using Synaptic, everything in it is extremely out dated.
14:28<KittenKoder>It's like .... Windows.
14:29<KittenKoder>But I finally figured it all out.
14:29<KittenKoder>Got it all working, stupid version conflicts were just making things not work.
14:36<Coke>Is there a time limit for how long steel and goods are available from an industry?
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>cargo disappears slowly if your rating drops below 50%
14:38<Coke>I see.
14:38<Coke>i guess good players never let it drop below 50?
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>yes, mostly by having always a train waiting
14:40<Coke>does the train cost if it's standing still?
14:41<Coke>do you guys ever play co op?
14:41<KittenKoder>I got the palette screwed up. >.< Animated colors are in the base.
14:41<KittenKoder>It's pretty though. :p
14:53<andythenorth>my yacd game was fun
14:53<andythenorth>but now I'm bored with it :P
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15:17<exec>hi
15:17<@planetmaker>hello
15:18<exec>anyone can tell how to pass exams to amateur games?
15:18<exec>i mean what should i do on this 150 years old public server to get in?
15:19<@planetmaker>join the irc channel related to the server
15:19<@planetmaker>which is #openttdcoop
15:19<exec>ok, thx a lot
15:19<@planetmaker>and read what @quickstart tells you when queried in that channel ;-)
15:19<exec>it was a lot of data - boring to read)
15:21<__ln__>have someone read it for you
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15:39<andythenorth>it's a shame I have to dick around with scenario editor for 40 mins to get a sensible number of industries :(
15:39<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/sane_industries.png
15:39<@planetmaker>andy why do you?
15:39<KittenKoder>Tweak the settings.
15:39<@planetmaker>high density + more, more more ;-)
15:39<andythenorth>I can't find a setting that will generate a sensible number like that
15:39<andythenorth>especially at that map size
15:40<KittenKoder>Like that image?
15:40<andythenorth>and tweaking it in FIRS only affects balance, not total amount
15:40<andythenorth>yes, like that image ;)
15:40<KittenKoder>It does effect the total amount.
15:40<KittenKoder>But a large number like that is easy breezy.
15:41<andythenorth>it didn't affect the total amount last time I read the code
15:41<andythenorth>although it may have been rewritten since then
15:41<KittenKoder>My preferred setting is Very Low and multiples of the same per town.
15:41<KittenKoder>No.
15:42<KittenKoder>Go into your advanced settings, under economy-industries, check "Allow multiple ...",.
15:42<andythenorth>KittenKoder: thanks
15:42<KittenKoder>Then set it for normal in the generating a new game, you should see something like that. ;)
15:43<andythenorth>but I suspect I've generated at least ^2 more maps than you have ;)
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15:43<KittenKoder>Unless you are at least 25 years old and started playing TT when it was new, it would be virtually impossible.
15:43<andythenorth>heh
15:43<andythenorth>both of those are true
15:44<KittenKoder>Then most likely you have generated the same number as me.
15:44<andythenorth>but writing/testing FIRS industry generation code basically means spending hours typing 'newgame' in console
15:44<andythenorth>then hitting m
15:44<andythenorth>rinse, repeat :P
15:44<KittenKoder>However, I play with every setting.
15:44<andythenorth>for all map sizes
15:44<KittenKoder>I need to write a batch script in Blender for rendering tracks. >.<
15:45<andythenorth>anyway....a new setting value would be good. Industries: insane :P
15:45<KittenKoder>Can't wait for the 32bpp version now that I figured out NML.
15:45<KittenKoder>andythenorth, I have seen a lot of layouts like that, even on low setting.
15:47<@Terkhen>openttd includes 32bpp already
15:47<+glx>but not extra zoom
15:47<andythenorth>oh
15:47<andythenorth>where do I start on a map like this? :P
15:47<andythenorth>it's bonkers
15:48<@Terkhen>the sea looks empty
15:48<Rubidium>for the (almost) 7 years they're working on 32bpp the output is remarkably small
15:49<andythenorth>hmm
15:49<andythenorth>no trams in 1860 :(
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15:50<andythenorth>hmm
15:50<andythenorth>I forgot to include TAI grf on that map :(
15:51<andythenorth>so that's 40 minutes wasted :P
15:51*andythenorth is done with the game for today in that case
15:51<KittenKoder>Terkhen, why does the GRF still palette them?
15:51<andythenorth>maybe I'll patch the industry setting to add 'insane'
15:51<@peter1138>just change the grfs midgame, trololol
15:52<KittenKoder>I think I missed something in the updates. >.<
15:52<@Terkhen>KittenKoder: what GRF?
15:52<andythenorth>peter1138: you think I didn't try that? ;)
15:52<andythenorth>no dice
15:52<Rubidium>to be honest, OpenGFX has taken 2 years as well
15:53<andythenorth>FIRS will be 3 in November
15:53<KittenKoder>NML ... which come to think of it ... suddenly the warning makes sense.
15:53<@planetmaker>Two years is a reasonable time for 10k sprites
15:53<KittenKoder>2 years is great time actually.
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>that depends on various things
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>32bpp lacks some serious momentum
15:54<@Terkhen>yes
15:54<@Terkhen>unified vision? :P
15:54<KittenKoder>I just don't like converting to indexed ... LOL
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15:54<Rubidium>Terkhen: too broad vision
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>a vision, a goal, a plan, ...
15:54<KittenKoder>It's why I put off playing with GRF making.
15:54<Rubidium>changing 'requirements' from 'themselves'
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15:55<@Terkhen>KittenKoder: OpenTTD supports 32bpp, but that does not means it always work on 32bpp :)
15:55<KittenKoder>What about alpha channel?
15:55<@planetmaker>why do you think it's called 32bpp?
15:55<@Terkhen>grfs use 8bpp
15:56<@Terkhen>and you add the 32bpp sprites separately IIRC
15:56<@planetmaker>iirc, yes
15:56<@planetmaker>I've never seen it really.
15:56<KittenKoder>Okay, now I'm confused again ... but meh.
15:56<@planetmaker>Though (e)grvts might do that
15:56<andythenorth>to change my town grf in SE, I have to delete all towns :P
15:56<andythenorth>so all industries go too
15:56<andythenorth>meh
15:57<@Terkhen>if you want to create a 32bpp only NewGRF, use black sprites for 8bpp, but since there is no 32bpp base set, no one will use your 32bpp NewGRF because it will look "wrong" with a 8bpp base set
15:57<andythenorth>and here we see again why changing grfs = no
15:57<@Terkhen>and yes, egrvts is the only NewGRF I know that has 32bpp
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>town grf can be added, but the towns themselves don't change immediately
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>if "town" means "houses"
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>so you have to bulldoze all towns, and then click "expand" a few times
15:57<KittenKoder>I like rgvrts
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>KittenKoder: just it's a known broken grf and nobody bothers to fix it
15:58<KittenKoder>Aaah.
16:01<andythenorth>the breaks are minor
16:05<@Terkhen>only the horses, or is there anything else?
16:06<KittenKoder>Steam cars.
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16:09<Eddi|zuHause>imho the horse stuff warrants putting into an extra grf, to complement all the other sets that don't provide anything before 1920
16:09<andythenorth>I'm inclined to agree
16:09<andythenorth>I was just playing a game that needed horses, but not rest of egrvts
16:10<andythenorth>I could add them to HEQS :P
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16:11<andythenorth>Heavy EQuine Set
16:11<Rubidium>Happy!
16:12<andythenorth>Where do the horses go when they are retired in depot?
16:13<Rubidium>the butcher!
16:13<Rubidium>but how dare you speak of this in such a cryptic language in such a closed community? This needs to be discussed in a much less cryptic language at a much more open place ;)
16:14<Rubidium>(the reusing of bus / truck / tram vehicle IDs for horses that is)
16:14<frosch123>oh no, did rubidum again read in the forbidden forums? :p
16:15<Rubidium>forbidden? It seems to be the place where these kinds of issues ought to be discussed.
16:17<andythenorth>I don't want to know about forbidden forums
16:17<frosch123>they can affect your mind badly
16:18<andythenorth>I am trying to forbid myself the suggestions forum
16:18<andythenorth>but I keep screwing up :P
16:19<andythenorth>wtf 'Adjustable and Different Station Tiles' ?
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16:21<Rubidium>frosch123: I've understood that forum correctly if their standpoint is that the whole inter-NewGRF balancing is a problem caused by OpenTTD's "multipool" "misfeature". Thus it only is a problem in OpenTTD and that there are no cases where it could be seen as troublesome in TTDPatch, right?
16:22<frosch123>i think if you use the canadian themepack and if we extent action e so you can disable all grfs except a few specific ones, everything is fine
16:25<andythenorth>basically the solution to all balancing issues is 'use the canadian theme pack'
16:25<andythenorth>:P
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: why does that need extension? a counter that enumerates all valid grf-ids, a loop, and an action 6 should be possible :p
16:27<frosch123>good point
16:28<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: it ought to just disable itself when it finds e.g. FF "OTT"
16:30*andythenorth considers disabling grfs that are lame
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so "lame" being "all except mine"?
16:32<Rubidium>yes openttd.grf is lame
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: what happens if i disable that by a grf?
16:32<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: you can't disable that
16:33<Rubidium>it doesn't end up in the NewGRF list
16:33<Rubidium>but openttd.grf disables itself when it find that you run ttdpatch
16:33<Rubidium>or a too low version of OpenTTD
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>why are no fences placed above snow line, where they are actually needed the most?
16:35<Coke>Can I remove the implicit stops indefinately?
16:35<Twerkhoven[L]>now cows / less humans to wander onto the tracks
16:35<Coke>THey keep popping back up and the train just stops for a few secs, might as well not stop.
16:35<Twerkhoven[L]>the fences arend the kind that can stop snow effectively anyway
16:35<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: because you haven't patched for that?
16:35<andythenorth>or the bits are used or something?
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>i think there are no bits for it
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>"rail has fence" implies "rail has grass"
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>or something
16:37<Rubidium>Coke: use non-stop orders
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>and why are horses not company coloured? :p
16:39<@planetmaker>cows are, if owned by chocolate companies
16:39*Eddi|zuHause wonders what a toblerone cow looks like
16:45<Rubidium>yellow with red accents?
16:46<KittenKoder>Going crosseyed.
16:46<KittenKoder>Need a break.
16:46<KittenKoder>Lining this stuff up is harder than I thought.
16:47<__ln__>yes, having a break is also chocolate.
16:47<KittenKoder>No chocolate. >.>
16:47<KittenKoder>Eeew.
16:48<KittenKoder>Ghost Ship ... that's a break.
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>my cats don't like KitteKat for some reason
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16:51<Wolf01>'night
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16:51<andythenorth>time for bed?
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17:05<frosch123>night
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17:54<@Terkhen>good night
17:54<@planetmaker>good night
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20:48<pjpe>what are the 2 generations of 2cc wagons for
20:48<pjpe>they don't seem to be much different
20:51<Eddi|zuHause>they have different design speed, so if you have faster engines, the newer generations cost less to run
20:52<pjpe>ah
20:52<Eddi|zuHause>there are like 6 generations over the years
20:52<pjpe>what if wagon speed limits are off?
20:53<Eddi|zuHause>i think the design speed/running costs are independent from wagonspeedlimits
20:53<Eddi|zuHause>but i have never actually played the 2cc-set
20:55<pjpe>what if it doesn't show the design speed in the window
20:55<pjpe>it just has empty space after it
20:55<Eddi|zuHause>no idea
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---Logclosed Mon Aug 08 00:00:18 2011