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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-08-08

---Logopened Mon Aug 08 00:00:18 2011
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03:15<@planetmaker>moin
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03:21<dihedral>good morning
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04:13<dihedral>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aO-phqmyqdY :-P
04:13<dihedral>that really cracked me up
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04:32<@Terkhen>good morning
04:33<@planetmaker>hello Terkhen
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06:12<dihedral>last workday today - then: holiday
06:12<dihedral>a week of funfares
06:12<dihedral>5 days - 5 funfares :-D
06:16<SpComb>last holiday today, work tomorrow :(
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06:21<__ln__>'qapla
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06:49<krinn>hi
06:51<krinn>i've made a test AI for ai authors, i would like a space @openttd-coop to hold the code, is there a way to have a "manager" that could add another dev that wish update it (without my aggrement) ?
06:53<@planetmaker>a manager of a project can add people to the project
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06:54<krinn>great, who could be manager ?
06:55<@planetmaker>you made the testAI. So I guess you?
06:56<krinn>oh i've just check, i'm manager for dictatorAI
06:56<@planetmaker>Besides a project's managers, the three admins of the DevZone could in principle also assign people to projects. But I prefer to not exercise that right, unless it's clear that it is desired
06:56<@planetmaker>then you can create also a new project already
06:56<@planetmaker>just click on "NewProject" in the project list overview
06:56<@planetmaker>upper right...
06:57<krinn>ah cool, i would like the code be shared, and update by anyone that wish it even i'm not here to agree (it's just a test ai nothing really harm could be done to it)
06:58<@planetmaker>you're creating a project already?
06:58<krinn>i'm looking for the create option
06:58<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects <-- should be there
06:58<krinn>great thank you
06:59<@planetmaker>Name is the name in the project list, the identifier is the directory name. Please choose ai-XXXX
07:00<@planetmaker>select also the module "Repository"
07:00<krinn>i've named it AIVehicleTest -> ai-aivehicletest ?
07:00<@planetmaker>but don't try to configure it, it will be done automatically. Yes, that's ok. or just ai-vehicletest. Whatever you like
07:01<krinn>ai-aivehicletest then in case one create another ai name VehicleTest
07:02<krinn>repository module is the 2nd line 3rd one in the list ? (it's translate to french for me)
07:06<@planetmaker>I don't know the french translations. There are checkboxes for "modules" to use in the project. "issue tracking" and "url tabs" are default.
07:06<@planetmaker>Select in that list also the "repository" one
07:07<krinn>i think i've found it, now create, can you help with next steps ?
07:07<@planetmaker>when you checked that box, too, just click the 'save' button below
07:07<krinn>done
07:08<@planetmaker>now you have to add yourself as manager.
07:08<krinn>it have autoadd me i see
07:08<@planetmaker>ah, it did? great.
07:09<krinn>can i add you as manager to check it ?
07:09<@planetmaker>I'm admin, I can check it also without that right :-P
07:09<krinn>great :P
07:10<@planetmaker>the other two are A mmler and Y exo
07:10<krinn>one i've check seems not to be the good "repo" option :/
07:11<krinn>i have no "repo" tab (hellish translation !)
07:11<@planetmaker>you checked the correct one
07:11<@planetmaker>the repo is already created and you can push to it.
07:11<krinn>with mercurial?
07:11<@planetmaker>yes
07:12<@planetmaker>same URL as for your AI, but the last part is ai-aivehicletest
07:14<krinn>trying to remember the hg creation :p
07:14<@planetmaker>you can also pull ;-)
07:15<@planetmaker>hg clone http://hg.openttdcoop.org/ai-aivehicletest
07:15<@planetmaker>s/pull/clone/
07:15<@planetmaker>you'll need to setup then the https URL for push
07:16<krinn>hg pull fail :)
07:17<krinn>lol found solve, hg init
07:19<@planetmaker>yeah, not pull. Clone
07:20<@planetmaker>but if you init, you don't need to clone. But you'll edit you .hg/hgrc accordingly to point to the correct URL of the devzone repo
07:20<krinn>look out the repo must be update now
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07:22<krinn>we have a way to push a tar file with the AI, i don't wish put that ai in bananas, no use for users
07:22<Elish4>It just made it to my mind, to spice up the game with random traffic from actual citizens of the city?
07:22<Elish4>or cities*
07:22<@planetmaker>Elish4, get the generic cars NewGRF and the TownCar AI
07:22<Elish4>:o
07:22<Elish4>awesome!
07:24<krinn>planetmaker, oh and btw you remember the value to tell openttd to not use that ai as random ai?
07:24<krinn>the one in the info.nut
07:25<@planetmaker>I never knew the value :-)
07:25<krinn>:) this one should be wrote in the wiki
07:26<@planetmaker>please find out and amend the wiki :-)
07:27<@planetmaker>A wiki lives from people adding things when they were annoyed to not have found it where expected :-)
07:27<krinn>never used one, but i'm sure zuu could update it
07:28<@planetmaker>relying on other people to edit the wiki usually fails ;-)
07:28<@planetmaker>and *someone* is a very elusive and illusive person...
07:28<@planetmaker>@seen someone
07:28<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: someone was last seen in #openttd 42 weeks, 1 day, 17 hours, 48 minutes, and 28 seconds ago: <Someone> indeed
07:28<krinn>http://noai.openttd.org/docs/trunk/classAIInfo.html#436d1beff0250b8ba307c46e7a7b394b
07:29<krinn>found it :)
07:29<@planetmaker>ha, even there ;-)
07:33<krinn>possible to have the tar file upload there or should i drop it to the forum instead ?
07:33<krinn>for ones that don't wish/know howto clone the repot to get it
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07:39<@planetmaker>most people will rather search the forums, I assume
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07:39<@planetmaker>You could add the module "files" and attach it there, if you like
07:40<krinn>i'm doing a forum entry with the ai, it will be easier
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07:56<krinn>ok done, thank you planetmaker
07:58<@planetmaker>you're welcome :-)
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10:18<Eddi|zuHause>there's a (trunk, but doesn't really appear there) bug with drawing fences: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2012.%20Mai%201988.png anyone familiar with the logic-magic in rail_cmd.cpp:DrawTrackFence_*?
10:20<@planetmaker>at least one fence has a wrong slope
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>yep
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>rail_cmd.cpp:if (ti->tileh != SLOPE_FLAT) rfo = (ti->tileh & SLOPE_S) ? RFO_SLOPE_SW : RFO_SLOPE_NE; <-- this line is probably not right in some corner cases
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>another corner case: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%206.%20Jul%201988.png
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>is there a check whether there is a foundation between tile1 and tile2 (both adjacent tile indices), or a half-foundation on a tile?
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11:53<IchGuckLive>Hi all
11:53<IchGuckLive>Eddi|zuHause: ? B)
11:56<IchGuckLive>i try to find a Documentation on what alll this inserts to a transport instructions are doing
11:57<IchGuckLive>there has a llot changed till 0.6
11:59<@planetmaker>that's like 3 years
11:59<IchGuckLive>it woudt also be good to have a information on what tiles a Town ownes Entyer so you do not have to look at every tile
12:00<IchGuckLive>planetmaker: ubuntu distros still hold that old version in stock
12:02<@planetmaker>complain then
12:03<@planetmaker>or use a new ubuntu, if they updated
12:03<IchGuckLive>i upgreadet to 1.1.2-Rc1
12:03<@planetmaker>but complain to the ubuntu maintainers ;-)
12:03<@planetmaker>good choice, I guess
12:03<IchGuckLive>but i try to find infos on the new featurers under that transport instructions
12:04<__ln__>IchGuckLive: ubuntu does not upgrade any software within one ubuntu release.
12:04<IchGuckLive>B)
12:05<IchGuckLive>infos on instructions sutch as load for 3 Days
12:05<IchGuckLive>or wait till 50% load
12:07<IchGuckLive>the new game performence has a mutch better outcome i owne now after 8Years 10mio cash
12:08<IchGuckLive>seams also the citys grow faster when suplied with goods
12:09<IchGuckLive>ok by try to find some answers in a forum later !
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12:35<Rubidium>planetmaker: ubuntu maintainers? What's that supposed to be?
12:36<Rubidium>e.g. did you know that, according to Ubuntu, AI-Trans (the AI) is upstream of the OpenTTD Ubuntu package?
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12:57<phatmatt>hi, is there a user with a 'Project Manager' account on flyspray for the openttd project?
12:57<phatmatt>as in, one that's around :P
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13:00<Burtybob>I have "network.server_admin_chat" set to on but my admin network bot still doesn't pick up "private" chat. However it does pick up normal (public chat) fine. Does anyone have any suggestions?
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13:09<phatmatt>planetmaker: you around?
13:09<@Terkhen>@get #openttd -3
13:09<@DorpsGek>Terkhen: Don't ask to ask, just ask
13:10<phatmatt>sure, but he helped with my flyspray stuff before, and no-one else responded
13:10<phatmatt>just wanted to highlight his nick
13:10<@Terkhen>better to highlight with a question
13:10<phatmatt>yeah, but i need it to be private :P
13:11<@Terkhen>send a private message
13:11<@Terkhen>burtybob: is the admin network supposed to know aout private chat?
13:11<@Terkhen>about*
13:11*planetmaker returns from dinner
13:11<phatmatt>wellllll that's why i asked for someone who was one and here now but ok
13:11<burtybob>Yes, from what I read it is.
13:11<phatmatt>nvm :P
13:11<burtybob>"The configuration option network.server_admin_chat specifies whether private chat for to the server is distributed into the admin network."
13:11<@planetmaker>phatmatt: even without confidential information released, the problem certainly can be explained ;-)
13:11<@Terkhen>oh, private chat to the server
13:12<@Terkhen>I thought you meant all private chat :P
13:12<burtybob>Oh...
13:12<@Terkhen>that makes sense
13:12<burtybob>That's how I read it as "all chat" since the "server" can see all private messages I believe
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13:13<@Terkhen>I don't know much about the admin network, but I don't think it is supposed to be able to eavesdrop all private conversations
13:15<burtybob>That would make sense
13:17<burtybob>I was just reading it wrong lol, however there is a dest type of DESTTYPE_CLIENT and DESTTYPE_TEAM which added to my confusion I think
13:21<@Terkhen>ok :)
13:23<burtybob>Would be handy from an admin point of view but I can see how it could be abused though :(
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13:40<X-Frank-X>Hi all :-)
13:42<@planetmaker>hm, I sense a first application actually using the admin interface
13:43<@Terkhen>hi X-Frank-X
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22730 /trunk/src/lang/hungarian.txt:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: hungarian - 1 changes by IPG
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13:46<X-Frank-X>Hi Terkhen, was just reading your forum posting, thanks for replying
13:46<X-Frank-X>I was actually just thinking "in the box" of a multiplayer server in my first post...
13:48<@Terkhen>yes, my answer was mostly regarding trunk inclusion, but a public patch that works would be nice too :P
13:48<X-Frank-X>well, I was just replying to your forum post to get the conversation going :-)
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13:48<X-Frank-X>but what i'm saying is actually that I will work on it :-)
13:48<@Terkhen>nice :)
13:49<X-Frank-X>allthough it would be nice if I could get some help here and there, but I guess this is the right channel for it :-)
13:49<X-Frank-X>have been studying on the code for some time now... Now I guess it would be a nice idea to "jump in" :-)
13:50<@Terkhen>yes, this is the right channel
13:50<@Terkhen>depending on what you plan to do, it might be a very big project :P
13:50<X-Frank-X>well, in the first place I will just study the code of the beta "Citybuilder" script for 0.7.4
13:51<X-Frank-X>and will try to integrate it in a patch for 1.1.1
13:51<X-Frank-X>that's step 1
13:51<@Terkhen>hmm... I don't remember if 0.7.4 is from before or after the big change regarding goal patches
13:51<X-Frank-X>I think it's from before
13:51<X-Frank-X>cause everything is VERY different if you look at the code of 0.7.1
13:51<@Terkhen>I don't remember much about it honestly, IIRC it was something about not allowing commands done by "no one" anymore
13:51<@planetmaker>X-Frank-X: don't patch releases
13:51<@planetmaker>work with openttd trunk
13:52<X-Frank-X>well...
13:52<@Terkhen>if that patch is from before that change, you will need a new approach
13:52<X-Frank-X>ok
13:52<@planetmaker>Terkhen: yes, that was changed since
13:52<X-Frank-X>Planetmaker: I was just thinking about the stable releases, cause that's what most players use right now
13:52<@planetmaker>pre- 1.0
13:52<@planetmaker>X-Frank-X: but patches for stable releases are useless for development
13:53<X-Frank-X>true
13:53<X-Frank-X>but this would be a multiplayer server patch...
13:53<X-Frank-X>that was my idea
13:53<@planetmaker>so?
13:53<X-Frank-X>well, most clients are the stable release!
13:53<X-Frank-X>but
13:53<@planetmaker>development happens in trunk
13:53<X-Frank-X>It wouldn't be such a big step if I have it working for 1.1.1 to make it compatible with the Trunk release
13:54<X-Frank-X>I guess?
13:54<@planetmaker>if you want to go the "I patch stables" you most probably go an approach which won't lead to anything actually happening
13:54<X-Frank-X>I understand
13:54<X-Frank-X>I will actually check first what I can do
13:54<@planetmaker>and... as written, goals / scenarios need a single-player component. Thus patching servers is not the way
13:54<@planetmaker>it's the wrong way actually
13:55<X-Frank-X>well... online there is a server which is server side patched and gives the citybuilder module
13:55<X-Frank-X>that was my original target to make
13:55<X-Frank-X>but I understand what you are saying
13:55<@planetmaker>yes, people do that. But those are rather hacks. And they'll never have a chance to hit the main development branch
13:55<X-Frank-X>ok
13:56<X-Frank-X>get the point :-)
13:56<@planetmaker>Thus you choose: do something which may actually be useful beyond your server. Or ... just make yet another hacked server with goals / whatever
13:56<X-Frank-X>I will do my best to develop for the trunk release!
13:56<@Terkhen>great :)
13:56<@Terkhen>then IMO you should aim for something that uses script
13:56<X-Frank-X>so, what would be the best approach in this case?
13:56<@Terkhen>but that makes the project huge :P
13:57<X-Frank-X>If I want to be able to make it single player, offcourse
13:57<X-Frank-X>but the squirrel approach, is that even possible>
13:57<X-Frank-X>?
13:57<@planetmaker>apropos... I think there's two things which can be separated: goals (as in defining an ending) and scenario / script control which trigger events based on *whatever*
13:57<@Terkhen>^
13:57<@Terkhen>that's the problem with this feature
13:57<@Terkhen>defining limits :P
13:57<@planetmaker>:-)
13:57<X-Frank-X>exactly, maybe i should put up a project approach :-)
13:57<@Terkhen>if you only want a way to define score and an ending... huge scripts are probably wrong
13:58<X-Frank-X>setting a first goal
13:58<@planetmaker>I guess first excluding game changes might be a good decision. Just definiable goals
13:58<@planetmaker>yep
13:58<@Terkhen>maybe "only goals and score, but don't close the door to future implementations of more complicated stuff"
13:58<X-Frank-X>well, that shouldn't be to difficult, I mean, I got plenty of ideas (I think ;-))
13:59<X-Frank-X>so setting up the project goal wouldn't be to difficult as a first step
14:00<X-Frank-X>originally I had 2 approaches: Setting a goal based on company value
14:00<X-Frank-X>and building a city with bringin cargo to the city and make it grow where your goal is the amount of people in a city
14:01<X-Frank-X>and the cargo demand will grow with the city offcourse
14:01<@planetmaker>the latter is anything but "of course"
14:01-!-perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd
14:01<X-Frank-X>lol
14:01<X-Frank-X>true
14:02<@planetmaker>adding a goal "city population" and "company value" probably are moderately easy
14:02<X-Frank-X>I thought so to... but is that doable with for example Squirrel
14:02<@planetmaker>adding a game change "increase good demand for further city growth" is quite a fundamental economical change
14:02<@Terkhen>oooh, maybe is the moment to have the town growth discussion again :)
14:02<@planetmaker>:-)
14:02<@Terkhen>it is, again, a problem of scope
14:02<X-Frank-X>:) Had that before?
14:03<@planetmaker>once? twice? n-times I guess :-)
14:03<@Terkhen>X-Frank-X: I was planning on handling town growth changes via NewGRF
14:03-!-perk111 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd
14:03<@Terkhen>see http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Town_Control
14:03<@Terkhen>some people prefer a NewGRF approach, other people a approach via scripts
14:04<@Terkhen>but Alberth is not here :P
14:04<@planetmaker>we'll probably end up with both :-P
14:04<X-Frank-X>lol, and your approach is over NewGRF?
14:04<@planetmaker>though I prefer towns handled by newgrfs
14:04<@Terkhen>me too, but Alberth is right about something
14:04<X-Frank-X>what will be the "win" with NewGRF? No Game code structure change?
14:05<@Terkhen>implementing *anything* with NewGRFs makes it more difficult to understand to AIs and scripts
14:05<X-Frank-X>sorry, I have to roll in a little...
14:05<X-Frank-X>ok
14:05<@Terkhen>he made other valid points, but that was the one that convinced me
14:05<@Terkhen>X-Frank-X: yes, that's the big win :P
14:05<X-Frank-X>sorry if I ask stupid questions sometimes, just want to make myself confortable with everything :-)
14:05<@Terkhen>don't worry :)
14:06<@Terkhen>my questions were far more stupid :P
14:06<X-Frank-X>lol
14:06<@planetmaker>NewGRF would probably much more flexible. But yes, the interface to AIs and scripts would be "interesting". Actually also to players
14:06<X-Frank-X>so, does the NewGRF approach have access to all game aspects?
14:06<@planetmaker>many. All: no
14:06<@Terkhen>many, yes
14:06<X-Frank-X>ok
14:07<X-Frank-X>I though NewGRF was for graphics only *sigh*
14:07<@Terkhen>it's not a problem of what is it capable to do, it has more to do with its relation with other features
14:07<X-Frank-X>roger that
14:07<@Terkhen>for example, AIs have a hard time already with industry newgrfs
14:07<@Terkhen>for example, they might not know what is stockpiling
14:07<X-Frank-X>ah
14:07<@Terkhen>even harder with vehicles: some sets for example require a caboose for trains
14:07<@planetmaker>that *could* be given them, though
14:07<@Terkhen>but the AI has no way to know that
14:07*Terkhen is just giving random examples to explain the general issue :P
14:08<@planetmaker>but it's not easy. Both on OpenTTD and AI side
14:08<X-Frank-X>:)
14:08<@planetmaker>Terkhen: of course
14:08<@Terkhen>a town growth approach with NewGRFs would have the same problem, your goal scripts would have a hard time trying to understand what the town growth NewGRF does
14:08<@Terkhen>and that's what convinced me to stop coding :P
14:08<X-Frank-X>ah
14:08<@planetmaker>hm, did that?
14:08<X-Frank-X>thank you for that heads up ;-)
14:09<@Terkhen>planetmaker: yes, I'd like to have goal scripts too :P
14:09<@planetmaker>:-)
14:09<X-Frank-X>:-)
14:09<X-Frank-X>cool, so it's actually not a new idea...
14:09-!-perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:09<X-Frank-X>(offcourse not)
14:09<X-Frank-X>duh
14:09<@planetmaker>it's probably just a matter of where you draw the line between a (future) game control script interface and the existing game control via NewGRFs
14:10<@Terkhen>it's new that someone aims for trunk inclusion with his goal patch :P
14:10<@planetmaker>In principle a goal framework via NewGRFs is thinkable, too
14:10<@Terkhen>urgh
14:10<@planetmaker>given NML? :-)
14:10<@Terkhen>hmm...
14:10<X-Frank-X>NML? sorry, didn't get that
14:10<@planetmaker>newgrf programming language
14:10<@Terkhen>NML is a language for newgrfs
14:11<X-Frank-X>well... I guess it's now C++?
14:11<X-Frank-X>:-)
14:11<X-Frank-X>now = not
14:11<@Terkhen>nml is like c, nfo is like assembler :P
14:11<X-Frank-X>crap... but there are alot of examples out there, so have to go to study then :-)
14:11<X-Frank-X>on NML
14:12<X-Frank-X>but offcourse the same goes for AI and Squirrel
14:12<@Terkhen>you might want to explore newgrfs and AIs a bit, yes :P
14:12<X-Frank-X>will do
14:12<X-Frank-X>allthough I was just getting interested in C++ ;-)
14:12<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-landscape/repository/entry/src/company_land.pnml <-- like that is NewGRFs in NML
14:12<X-Frank-X>lol
14:12<X-Frank-X>thanks
14:12<@planetmaker>you find on the same page AIs
14:12<X-Frank-X>*click*
14:13<frosch123>[20:07] <Terkhen> for example, AIs have a hard time already with industry newgrfs <- ais wont have an easier job with scripted economy either :)
14:14<X-Frank-X>:S
14:14<@planetmaker>as you now have noticed, X-Frank-X, this is neither an easy topic nor something where a "best way" is currently paved or defined
14:14<frosch123>so, i would put it differently. newgrfs are for controlling simple entities of which there are a lot of
14:14<@planetmaker>like towns? ;-)
14:14<frosch123>scripts are for controlling big entities where there is only a few of
14:14<@Terkhen>true :P
14:14<@Terkhen>and yes, I agree with that
14:14<X-Frank-X>:-)
14:15<@planetmaker>sounds like a good distinction
14:15<X-Frank-X>ok... So got a few options anyway now :-) lol...
14:16<X-Frank-X>will just check first what the boundaries of the different options are...
14:16<@planetmaker>but... to me that sounds like "towns are newgrfs", especially as they exist partially there. Still. For a goal framework town growth mechanisms is IMHO (for now) secondary
14:16<frosch123>planetmaker: newgrf are for growing a single town
14:16<X-Frank-X>^
14:16<frosch123>a script is for balancing the growth across the whole map
14:16<@planetmaker>frosch123: yes
14:16<@planetmaker>that I agree with. No parent object "region" or "map" for the town feature ;-)
14:17<@Terkhen>but then you need to be able to allow access to specific towns via NewGRF
14:17<@Terkhen>the planned town control affected all of them
14:18<frosch123>Terkhen: the town control is for making towns react to indidivual triggers for them, like cargo delivery
14:18<X-Frank-X>yeps
14:18<X-Frank-X>so crucial for a city builder script
14:18<frosch123>scripts would be for making the total population of the world grow from 1950-1970 in the northern part of the map
14:18<X-Frank-X>I guess
14:18<frosch123>and after that only in the southern part
14:19<X-Frank-X>ah
14:19<@Terkhen>and how would the script and the town control NewGRF interact?
14:19<@planetmaker>like two vehicle newgrfs w/o engine pool: both just do their thing ;-)
14:19<frosch123>X-Frank-X: also, newgrfs have simple decision making. they are not turing-complete and work with decision trees and very few storages. scripts on the otherhand are normal imperative programming
14:20<@Terkhen>but that's not comparable, in this case the script and the NewGRF are expected to work together
14:20<frosch123>Terkhen: you have to merge it somehow
14:20<frosch123>which would be the job of ottd
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14:20<@planetmaker>a non-trivial task
14:20<@Terkhen>yes
14:20<frosch123>yup :p
14:21<X-Frank-X>so actually to implement "some" goal at first we can just start with the company value goal which seems the easiest right now?
14:21<@Terkhen>yes :P
14:21<X-Frank-X>that doesn't need any town script or whatever
14:21<X-Frank-X>you just start to build towards the goal
14:22<@planetmaker>yes.
14:22<X-Frank-X>maybe playing against a AI, allthough AI's are WAY better when they are well scripted ;-)
14:22<@planetmaker>similarily one can check vehicles and their count and profit...
14:22<frosch123>you could also restrict actions of players
14:23<@planetmaker>X-Frank-X: are they?
14:23<frosch123>like, they may only build in one town at the start
14:23<X-Frank-X>well
14:23<X-Frank-X>right
14:23<X-Frank-X>good one
14:23<X-Frank-X>or "from" one town building to the next resource
14:23<frosch123>though i would like to see the ai which can handle that :p
14:23<@Terkhen>:P
14:23<frosch123>so, maybe goals should know about human vs. ai
14:24<X-Frank-X>well
14:24<X-Frank-X>maybe a long shot, but we could make some AI's like: Rookie, normal, difficult and whatever
14:24<X-Frank-X>just like Quake ;-)
14:24<@planetmaker>frosch123: they probably should, yes
14:24<X-Frank-X>lol
14:24<@planetmaker>X-Frank-X: AIs implement that of sorts
14:25<X-Frank-X>so we got some base allready? :-P
14:25<frosch123>scripts could also modify the cost structure
14:25<frosch123>make stuff for ais cheap
14:25<frosch123>and expensive for players
14:25<@planetmaker>:-D
14:25<frosch123>do stuff like the terraforming limit etc
14:25<@planetmaker>or simply general on a per-company basis
14:25*Terkhen wasn't kidding when he said that the biggest problem of this feature is defining its scope
14:25<@Terkhen>:P
14:26<X-Frank-X>hmmm
14:26<frosch123>Terkhen: in any case you will very quickly also reach the question: what shall be done in ottd itself, and what in scripts
14:26<frosch123>just like for newgrfs :p
14:27<burtybob>Sorry was afk but yeah we want to have a admin interface that we can use instead of having to type rcon to change things we can click buttons lol.
14:27<@Terkhen>yes, most of Alberth's issues with town control via NewGRFs are related to that
14:27-!-burtybob [56a68b76@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
14:27<@planetmaker>burty... hmpf
14:27<frosch123>Terkhen: yeah, but imo the term "newgrf" is wrong in that sentence. it should be "plugin"
14:28<X-Frank-X>burty: are you aiming on multiplayer server now or is this something out of that scope?
14:28<@Terkhen>newgrfs are now the same than plugins? :P
14:28<andythenorth>twitter coverage of london riots is quite exciting
14:28<X-Frank-X>with restrictions I guess
14:28<andythenorth>newgrfs are add-ons
14:28<@planetmaker>he left, x-frank-x
14:28<X-Frank-X>oh
14:28<X-Frank-X>lol
14:29<@planetmaker>but it can only be used on servers
14:29<frosch123>either you do everything in plugins, which pop up quickly, conflict with each other, are not maintained and vanish. or you do everything in a monolithical ottd :p
14:29<X-Frank-X>oops, I see now ;-)
14:29<@Terkhen>frosch123: neither sounds good
14:29<@Terkhen>hmmmmmmmmmmmm
14:29<@Terkhen>this issue is so complicated
14:29<@planetmaker>catch 22
14:29<X-Frank-X>lol, sorry bout that ;-)
14:29<@Terkhen>maybe we should remake the whole game in C#
14:30<X-Frank-X>lol
14:30<@Terkhen>C# solves everything
14:30<X-Frank-X>does it?
14:30<@planetmaker>yes, same as java
14:30<@Terkhen>nah, but someone thought it did
14:30<X-Frank-X>lol
14:31<@Terkhen>heh, that was a good one
14:31<@Terkhen>"let's remake openttd in java, it is great for making appsmultiplatform"
14:31<X-Frank-X>yeah... and to crash your computer and fuck up stuff
14:31*Terkhen wonders if java works in all platforms supported by openttd
14:31<X-Frank-X>great!
14:31<Rubidium>java isn't that bad
14:31<X-Frank-X>well
14:32<X-Frank-X>I know
14:32<X-Frank-X>just wanted to say something ;-)
14:32<Rubidium>okay, since oracle it's getting worse
14:32-!-burtybob [56a68b76@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
14:32<Rubidium>although I'd argue that a java implementation of OpenTTD would be better than a LabView one
14:32<X-Frank-X>depends on the quality of code Rubidium
14:32<X-Frank-X>and there's alot of crap out there
14:33<X-Frank-X>labView? :-S
14:33<frosch123>the inter-version compatibility of labview is worse than osx :p
14:33<X-Frank-X>WTF is LabView?
14:33<@Terkhen>heh
14:33<@Terkhen>:D
14:33<@planetmaker>burtybob: it'd be quite interesting to have such server control script open-sourced
14:33<@planetmaker>http://sine.ni.com/np/app/flex/p/ap/global/lang/en/pg/1/docid/nav-77/
14:33<burtybob>It's only based off of JOAN
14:33<frosch123>X-Frank-X: the ideal language to code something and make the ceo think he understands it
14:33<X-Frank-X>:D
14:33<@planetmaker>burtybob: yes, the better
14:34<Rubidium>frosch123: and to make totally untraceable crap :(
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14:35<X-Frank-X>soooooo, to get back on topic, did you guys see that beta of the citybuilder script for 0.7.1?
14:36<X-Frank-X>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=44319
14:36<Rubidium>the one that did if (command == "!stats") { ... } ?
14:36<X-Frank-X>the code is old, but the approach was rather nice I thought for a multiplayer server!
14:36<X-Frank-X>uhm
14:36<X-Frank-X>no idea actually :D
14:37<X-Frank-X>didn't study it that well
14:37<X-Frank-X>yet
14:37<X-Frank-X>yes, so it seems :d
14:37<X-Frank-X>lol
14:38<Rubidium>that was roughly the moment I considered it "not finished"
14:38<X-Frank-X>lol
14:38<X-Frank-X>+ else if ( strcmp(msg, "!rules") == 0 )
14:38<X-Frank-X>+ CB_handleTextCommand(from_id, (char*)"rules", false);
14:38<X-Frank-X>well
14:38<X-Frank-X>that seems a bit "to the point :P"
14:38<Rubidium>X-Frank-X: further down
14:39<X-Frank-X>I know ;-)
14:39<__ln__>explicitly casting a string literal to char*?
14:39<X-Frank-X>well
14:39<X-Frank-X>I guess it worked for him ;-)
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14:41<Rubidium>only by sheer luck that the compiler saw the same strings and deduplicated them
14:43<X-Frank-X>but I was actually aiming on the approach and the idea, not the code!
14:43<X-Frank-X>I guess apart from the code you get the idea? :-P
14:44<X-Frank-X>First you claim a town, then you let that town grow by supplying it with fresh goods.
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14:44<@planetmaker>that idea is known...
14:44<X-Frank-X>right ;-)
14:44<X-Frank-X>ok
14:47<@Terkhen>X-Frank-X: http://wiki.openttd.org/Peter1138/Towngrowth_Challenge
14:49<X-Frank-X>thanks
14:49<@Terkhen>that's an example of a very specific implementation
14:49<@Terkhen>I'd prefer a generic one :P
14:49<X-Frank-X>:-)
14:50<andythenorth>http://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features/Gameplay_Goals_Framework
14:51<@Terkhen>oh, I forgot that one :)
14:51<X-Frank-X>lol, ok, I guess i am a little late to join that discussion ;-)
14:52<@Terkhen>you can join eternal discussions at any time
14:52<X-Frank-X>eternal :D
14:52<X-Frank-X>lol
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14:55<andythenorth>is the suggestions forum safe to read today?
14:56<frosch123>has it ever been?
14:56<SpComb>there's a suggestions forum?
14:56<andythenorth>I accidentally read the problems forum earlier
14:57<andythenorth>glad I don' go in there much
14:57<@Terkhen>andythenorth: you already killed the "NewGRFs I can't be bothered to do" thread, looking for more victims?
14:57<andythenorth>I killed that :o
14:57<@Terkhen>yes :P
14:57<andythenorth>I meant to encourage it :P
14:58<andythenorth>the world is under-supplied with stupidity
14:58<@Terkhen>there was an answer, but no one else dared to continue the discussion :P
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15:02<Elish4>uhm :D
15:02<Elish4>I have new idea
15:02<X-Frank-X>???
15:02<Elish4>how to upgrade openttd
15:02<Elish4>for lets say version 10.0
15:03<frosch123>just call marty mcfly, maybe he collects you
15:03<Elish4>make a world like earth - orbit you don't have border - like google earth :D
15:05-!-Chrill [~chrischri@h-5-149.a212.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
15:05<X-Frank-X>ok, I will shut up :-X
15:06<Elish4>this kind of requires 3d
15:06<@Terkhen>Elish4: that would be a new game, see this thread for similar suggestions and answers similar to the one we could give you: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=47238
15:06<@planetmaker>just start with a "simple" goal framework... :-)
15:07<@Terkhen>:D
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15:08<X-Frank-X>lol
15:08<SpComb>I vote for underground building
15:09<Prof_Frink>I vote for an "export balance" button.
15:10<Elish4>Terkhen: those are only lists of wanted features
15:10<Elish4>there's no earthlike view :p
15:11<@planetmaker>also called wrap-around or sphere
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15:39<Elish4>OpenTTD Evolved
15:39<Elish4>with 3D earth
15:39<frosch123>3d is crap
15:40<frosch123>all good games use basically 2d
15:40<Pikka>except the ones that don't
15:40<frosch123>take sc2 for a modern example
15:40<Elish4>you can use old 3d graphic cards
15:41<frosch123>sure you can look around somewhat 3dish, but the game itself is 2d
15:41<Elish4>everyone hs it
15:41<Elish4>it probably uses 3d rendering
15:42<Elish4>u need above average graphics for sc2
15:43<Ammler>well map rotating would be fun
15:43<Ammler>or cliffs
15:43<frosch123>i have no idea what "average graphics" are :)
15:43<Elish4>look
15:43<Elish4>nvidia has 4 rounded classes
15:43<Elish4>20, 40, 60, 80
15:44<Elish4>20, 40 for "ordinary" users... 60, 80 for "gamers"
15:44<andythenorth>it's pikka !
15:44<andythenorth>hello Pikka !
15:44<Elish4>60 are on budget gamers
15:44<Elish4>:D
15:44<Pikka>isn't it though
15:44<Pikka>hello andy!
15:44<Elish4>that's above average
15:44<andythenorth>Pikka: are you planning to spread riots!
15:44<frosch123>Elish4: i have 580. what does that count for? :p
15:44<andythenorth>social media causes riots
15:44<Elish4>frosch123: ultimate experience :D
15:44<Pikka>am I social media?
15:44<Elish4>I have 280
15:45<+glx>450 here
15:45<andythenorth>Pikka: probably :P
15:45<Elish4>totally enough for me.. new games on 1920x1200 no hickups
15:46-!-valhalla1w [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
15:46<Elish4>I only wouldn't buy newer because it doesn't have 512bit memory bus
15:46<Pikka>what are these riots?
15:47<andythenorth>they're all in the big london :P
15:47<andythenorth>we already had our riot
15:47<andythenorth>about tesco
15:47<Pikka>oh, I heard of some of them, are there more?
15:47<andythenorth>now they're copying :P
15:47<Pikka>typical
15:47<Elish4>heard on the news
15:48<Elish4>1000km away:D who cares :p
15:48<andythenorth>Pikka: I have been testing your TAI thing for you
15:48<+glx>I remember when we had ours
15:48<andythenorth>I can confirm that it is good ;)
15:48<Pikka>andy: and which bugs have you found? :P
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15:48<frosch123>Elish4: hmm, i think i failed with the product numbering. i hoped there would be no geforce with that number
15:48<Pikka>and you mean the houses?
15:49<frosch123>as i have quadro fx, no geforce
15:49<Elish4>frosch123: which one?
15:49<Elish4>580 does exist
15:49<andythenorth>Pikka: the houses indeed
15:49*Pikka should work on the industries some time, I've been without working farms in OpenTTD for about 9 months now
15:49<andythenorth>I provided my own :P
15:49<@planetmaker>:-)
15:49<@planetmaker>new PBI?
15:49<Pikka>yes, although it's TaI now
15:50<@planetmaker>also 'hello' :-)
15:50<@planetmaker>ah, TaI
15:50<Pikka>I wanted to make the farms more interesting, I got as far as turning off the default production and then forgot about it :)
15:50<@planetmaker>:-P
15:50<@planetmaker>makes it "interesting" ;-)
15:50<Elish4>there one option would be bridge connected in the middle of the air
15:50<Elish4>crossroads on the bridge
15:51<Elish4>there are real world example of this :)
15:51<Elish4>examples*
15:51<andythenorth>Elish4: <1000km for some people :P
15:51<Elish4>I know of one
15:51<Elish4>andythenorth: I believe you :p
15:51<@planetmaker>Pikka: did you fix the "towns do not grow anymore" thing which leads to building infintiely many roads?
15:51<@planetmaker>(I've not thought about a good solution, though...)
15:52<Pikka>infinitely many roads?
15:52<Pikka>I haven't seen that
15:52<@planetmaker>not growing is beyond whatever is a nice idea...
15:52<@planetmaker>last time I checked - which is quite a bit ago - towns were limited to a certain size
15:52*Hirundo is glad, there is a pond between /me and London
15:52<@planetmaker>and towns had a "ring of roads" in a manner of speaking as they were not permitted to build houses anymore
15:53-!-goblin [~goblin@dslb-092-075-244-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving]
15:53<@planetmaker>but... it's long ago... and I'd probably need to check that again
15:53<Pikka>well, they can build roads out beyond where they can build buildings, but it's not really a problem as far as I can see
15:53<andythenorth>the only problem I had was getting slaughtered by YACD + TAI :P
15:53<andythenorth>it took me about 7 attempts to survive
15:54<Pikka>it's most noticeable if you have OpenTTD "cities" with high additional growth
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15:56<frosch123>Hirundo: do you know the story that in the beginning all idiots were on an island separated from the rest until the insane ones digged a tunnel? :p
15:56<SmatZ>so... the soldiers who supposedly killed bin Laden died in a Chinook...
15:56<Pikka>andy: we really need peter1138 to set up a server for us again. :P
15:56<Hirundo>I did not, but it explains a lot :)
15:57<KittenKoder>Anyone know the 3D rotation vector for sloped tracks?
15:57<KittenKoder>11 degrees is the closest I have gotten, but it still won't line up right.
15:57<@planetmaker>well, it gives strange empty "suburbs"
15:58<Pikka>if you "grow" towns in the scenario editor, yes
15:58<Pikka>if you just play and let them grow naturally, no. in my experience at least. :)
15:58<@planetmaker>http://imagebin.org/166979 <-- I mean a town looking like this, Pikka
15:59<Hirundo>empty suburbs are bad, they have no shops to loot </troll mode>
15:59<Pikka>^^
15:59<Pikka>if you grow a town in the scenario editor past its population limit you'll get that effect, yes
15:59<@planetmaker>you get that also ingame
15:59<Pikka>but not to the same extent
16:00*KittenKoder has never seen that in game.
16:00<@planetmaker>Why should it be different, Pikka?
16:00<@planetmaker>it's the same growth algorithm
16:00<Pikka>and less so if you don't use openttd's "city" feature.
16:00<frosch123>KittenKoder: a flat tile has 64x32 pixels. the one slope adds 8 pixels vertically
16:01<@planetmaker>"city" only defines the growth speed an initial size
16:01<Pikka>planetmaker, you're forcing the city to grow a large amount at one point in time in the scenario editor
16:01<@planetmaker>technically it's the same as many small steps
16:01<Pikka>if you just play normally, and without cities, most if not all towns will spawn considerably below their limit
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16:01<@planetmaker>Yes, but I talk about how my towns looked after 70 years of playing or so
16:02<@planetmaker>which was very similar for the well-serviced ones
16:02<KittenKoder>>.< frosch123, that's not what I really mean.
16:02<Pikka>and, since the limit increases as time goes by, they're unlikely to outstrip the limit by much, and only gradually. :)
16:02<andythenorth>frosch123: that's a big island you guys are on :P
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16:03<Pikka>also I don't tend to play on big flat maps and without building/editing roads myself, so I guess I would see that less than you do. :P
16:03<Pikka>SmatZ, "None of the SEAL team members who died in the crash took part in the raid that killed bin Laden.", apparently.
16:04<KittenKoder>I use 3D modeling programs, not good with hand drawing anything, and the rotation for sloped tracks I just can't get right.
16:04<Pikka>KittenKoder: that is what you mean, you just need to do the maths
16:05<frosch123>andythenorth: it even only needs a peninsula
16:05*KittenKoder is not good at 2D to 3D maths.
16:05<frosch123>(though that joke might not work in english)
16:05<andythenorth>no it doesn't :p
16:06<frosch123>peninsula is a "half island" in german
16:06<andythenorth>ah
16:07<Rubidium>KittenKoder: I think the problem is that 3D modelling applications use perspective, whereas OpenTTD's graphics don't
16:07<Pikka>Rubidium: not necessarily
16:07<KittenKoder>You can raytrace with orthographic cameras.
16:07<Pikka>it's about 11.5 deg iirc from my locomotion days, KittenKoder
16:07<KittenKoder>Doing isometric in 3D is simply a matter of camera angles and tricks.
16:08<Rubidium>well, then I guess it's documented somewhere in the graphics fora
16:08<KittenKoder>Hmm, thanks Pikka ....
16:08<KittenKoder>Rubidium, most people can figure it out by themselves, I just couldn't for some reason.
16:09<Pikka>I don't know if/where I put my files to check though
16:09<KittenKoder>11.5 sounds better, I was nearing 11.3 but redoing it all over and over again was just getting to be a pain.
16:09<X-Frank-X>ok guys, bedtime
16:09<X-Frank-X>speak to you later!
16:10<andythenorth>KittenKoder: depending on the CGI app, you can turn off perspective in the camera (you might have done that already)
16:10<KittenKoder>As it is, I am going to recreate the whole sprite sheet anyway, the offsets and everything are a mess.
16:10<KittenKoder>andythenorth, I am a bit experienced with 3D modeling apps. ;)
16:11<KittenKoder>Specifically, Blender.
16:11-!-X-Frank-X [~X-Frank-X@dhcp-095-096-099-146.chello.nl] has quit []
16:11*andythenorth ponders getting Blender
16:11<andythenorth>my CGI days are long long ago
16:11<KittenKoder>Blender is nice, but lately it and Ubuntu have been hating each other for some reason.
16:11<KittenKoder>Haven't had the energy to upgrade my primary PC to Gentoo though.
16:12<KittenKoder>Some of my older work: http://www.youtube.com/user/KittenKoder
16:12<KittenKoder>Experimentations.
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16:15<Pikka>I so can't remember any trig
16:16<Prof_Frink>sohcahtoa.
16:17<Pikka>but I get a slope of 12.6 degrees by my rather dodgy calculations
16:18<frosch123>screen or world coordinates?
16:19<Pikka>or actually
16:20<Pikka>possibly 10.02. I don't know!
16:20<Pikka>I tried :]
16:21<KittenKoder>12.6 was my first result to.
16:22<KittenKoder>But it was a bit too much, noticeably so once lined up.
16:23<KittenKoder>Odd, the tiles are 64x32 iso, right?
16:23<KittenKoder>Everything has 64x31 ....
16:26<Pikka>they're drawn 64x31, yes, because of the way the borders line up
16:27<KittenKoder>Aaah, duh. >.<
16:27<KittenKoder>LOL
16:27<Pikka>the "sides" of the tiles touch, meaning there's a one pixel gap between the "top" and "bottom" :)
16:28<KittenKoder>This could explain why I have had a hard time getting things lined up.
16:29<Pikka>what are you trying to render?
16:29<KittenKoder>Working on a new maglev track.
16:29<Pikka>oh, cool. :)
16:29<KittenKoder>Well, will be, right now I'm figuring out the nuances of the NewGRF stuff.
16:30<KittenKoder>I REALLY don't like the standard maglev track, it's fugly.
16:30<Pikka>I was going to say, there are further complications to drawing trains and road vehicles, as the dimensions of the diagonal sprites are not, in any way, accurate. :)
16:30<KittenKoder>But the one I do like seems to play havoc with bridge graphics.
16:30<KittenKoder>I found your templates on the wiki for those.
16:30<KittenKoder>:p
16:31<Pikka>:)
16:31<KittenKoder>I was thinking that once I get this all figured out I will make a "futuristic" vehicle set based on sci-fi movies.
16:32<KittenKoder>Mostly Maglev though.
16:32<Pikka>eek :)
16:32<KittenKoder>But more reasonable than the original ones. >.<
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16:32<KittenKoder>They get insane with the speeds.
16:32-!-Juo [~Juo@cpc11-acto2-2-0-cust244.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
16:32<KittenKoder>I just want variety, I love variety.
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16:42<KittenKoder>Figured out with NML I can make a really cool "base" layout+template.
16:47<burtybob>I've heard a lot of talk (and been shot down a couple of times) about breaking NewGRF compatibility. I am wondering if there is any documentation on the code about how to work with NewGRF features within the C++ code. For example if I wanted to edit something but not break the grf compat
16:48<Hirundo>you really need to be more specific if you want specific (and useful) advice
16:51<burtybob>for example if I was doing some modifications to the industries but needed to make sure that it was compatible with the NewGRF system still
16:52<KittenKoder>You should just make a NewGRF then.
16:55<burtybob>Do you remember the old "budgets and workforce" patch a couple of years ago?
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17:04<burtybob>The whole NewGRF coding docs looks a whole lot better than it used to!
17:05<@Terkhen>yes, they have been improved a lot lately :P
17:05<KittenKoder>NML docs still need a little work though. :p
17:06<KittenKoder>However I am very impressed with NML.
17:06<burtybob>Still better than when I last looked *shudders*. I looked and was like WTF how does anyone understand this. Now it's easy to read, well explained and I actually feel as if I could learn something. Although to be honest I am more interested in C++ work than NML
17:06<@Terkhen>yes, NML makes everything easier :P
17:07<Hirundo>KittenKoder: If you have (suggestions for) additions/improvements, please let me know
17:07<KittenKoder>It's not easy making a new language for something.
17:08<KittenKoder>Hirundo, I may, after I figure out more of it. ;)
17:08<KittenKoder>Though, an explanation on the extent of templates and what they are truly capable of would be nice.
17:08<KittenKoder>There's a lot of stuff they can do that I just found on accident.
17:09<KittenKoder>They are almost as powerful as c templating.
17:10<KittenKoder>Oh, also, an explanation of how to use the animated palettes specifically would be nice, but that could just be my lack of finding it.
17:11<Hirundo>animated palettes... as in the colours used for the sea and such?
17:11<KittenKoder>Yeah.
17:12<Hirundo>You might want to check up http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/PalettesAndCoordinates in that case
17:12<KittenKoder>I can't find much on the NewGRF information for it, but even if I did I don't know how to control it for NML. I wind up with colors getting mapped wrong.
17:12<KittenKoder>Well, that's awesome, thank you for that.
17:12<Hirundo>basically, avoid all the 'special' colours
17:13<Hirundo>and yes, it needs to be added to / referenced from the NML docs, you're right :)
17:14<KittenKoder>The page you posted just now helps me out with even more to. ^_^ I love this channel.
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17:15<KittenKoder>Offsets were bothering me because they didn't make sense ... until now.
17:15<frosch123>what? firs has no construction stages?
17:15<KittenKoder>Some of them do, if you mean by the graphics.
17:16<frosch123>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ttdviewer <- KittenKoder: if you want to know more about palette animation
17:17<KittenKoder>Meh, tried that app, only helped a little. ;) I'm a doc person more than a look and feel.
17:17<KittenKoder>Thanks though.
17:17<frosch123>then take a look at the code :p
17:18<KittenKoder>:p
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17:19<KittenKoder>Right now I'm a bit more busy working on a Gimp template.
17:27<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22731 /trunk/src/ (3 files): -Fix: [NewGRF] The construction stage sprites were incorrectly selected in cases other than 1 or 4 sprites per set.
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17:33<frosch123>night
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17:34<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: You seem to have read my mind with your curve speed comment ;)
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure i said the same thing a year or two ago already ;)
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17:55<@planetmaker>good night
18:05<__ln__>when Spock is dubbed to non-english, can one still hear he's from Boston rather than Vulcan?
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18:11<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: nobody speaks dialect in german dubs...
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>(that's the first thing i noticed when i started watching things in original language)
18:12-!-Progman [~progman@p57A19ACF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:12<__ln__>not even lietenant commander Scott?
18:12<__ln__>+u
18:13<KittenKoder>There is only one dialect in German!
18:13<KittenKoder>The right one!
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>i do think he spoke some small dialect
18:13<KittenKoder>:p
18:13<KittenKoder>Whoo .... that took a little work to get all worked out.
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>but the only dubbed show i remember where they really spoke dialect was hogans heroes
18:14<KittenKoder>I now have a Gimp image file that will help me line everything up right ... I hope.
18:14<__ln__>Spock's dialect can be heard when he says 'hwy, hwat, hwere' rather than 'why, what, where'.. otherwise not very dialectish.
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>speaking dialect in german makes you quickly come across as uneducated
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>"only stupid villagers speak dialect"
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>so unless you are the "Bulle von Tölz", nobody speaks dialect
18:16<__ln__>i see
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>you frequently hear dialect in cheap "reality" shows
18:18<__ln__>in the blu-ray extras of Star Trek (2009) there's a great short clip of Kirk and Spock performing a scene from the movie in (exaggerated) scottish dialect
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18:26<KittenKoder>So .... what about multiple files with NML?
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>KittenKoder: typically the c-preprocessor is used for that
18:27<KittenKoder>>.< Not what I mean.
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>so what do you mean then?
18:27<KittenKoder>Like includes, headers.
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's exactly what the c-preprocessor does
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18:28<KittenKoder>So ... there is no statement in the NML file itself for including a file?
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>no
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>why invent something twice?
18:29<KittenKoder>So one can use one single language through most of a project. ;)
18:29<KittenKoder>But meh.
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>you don't need another language to use the c-preprocessor
18:30<KittenKoder>Okay, I really don't understand what NML is, still learning the basics, from what I saw it was just a "translator" to NFO.
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>also, there is a ready-made makefile that does all this stuff for you
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>al compilers are "translators" from one language to another
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>typically from a higher language to a lower
18:31<KittenKoder>Granted.
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>here NML is the higher language and NFO is the lower language
18:32<KittenKoder>Just not sure what NML does itself.
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>or actually GRF is the lower language
18:32<KittenKoder>Yeah.
18:32<KittenKoder>NFO is like an aseembly language.
18:33<KittenKoder>From what I saw of it at least.
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>grfcodec translates NFO->GRF and GRF->NFO and nmlc trnaslates NML->GRF
18:33<KittenKoder>So NML actually uses c as a backbone?
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>no
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>not at all
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>the c-preprocessor is independent from the c-language
18:34<KittenKoder>Then why would a c-preprocessor be used?
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>the preprocessor handles "#define", "#include" etc.
18:34<KittenKoder>Aaah, so those statements work in NML.
18:34<KittenKoder>? Should have been a question.
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>not out of the box, you need to call the preprocessor explicitly
18:35<KittenKoder>Using a makefile.
18:35<KittenKoder>I have always hated makefile work. >.<
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>so it's a two-step process: "cpp mygrf.pnml -o mygrf.nml" and "nmlc mygrf.nml"
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>or something along this line
18:36<KittenKoder>Aaah, that clarifies the Swedish rails files.
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>.pnml is standard extension for nml files that need preprocessing
18:37-!-Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:37<KittenKoder>Then which is tnml for?
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>there's also .pnfo files, which follow the same two-step process with grfcodec
18:37<KittenKoder>Standard wise.
18:37-!-Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit []
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>dunno, not seen that yet
18:38<Hirundo>nml template (not to be confused with sprite template)
18:38<KittenKoder>Swedish rails seems to use it for macros.
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18:38<KittenKoder>Aaah, thank you Hirundo
18:38<Hirundo>the general pattern is #define A #define B #include template.tnml #undef A #undef B
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>ah, that makes sense
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>so we probably have a few misnamed files in cets :p
18:39<KittenKoder>I have been spoiled with Java and Eclipse for so long .... not use to all the command line work anymore.
18:40<Hirundo>then template.tnml contains some NML code that uses A and B as parameters somewhere
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure you can teach eclipse to handle the nml makefile :p
18:40<KittenKoder>Probably.
18:40<KittenKoder>But why?
18:40<KittenKoder>:p
18:41<KittenKoder>Just because I'm bumbling around to adjust to this again, doesn't mean it's not fun.
18:41<KittenKoder>Actually, it's gotten me excited about coding again.
18:42<KittenKoder>I had gotten so bored with programming lately, I still haven't even done any real projects other than for work.
18:42<KittenKoder>... and those don't really count as programming anymore. >.<
18:45<KittenKoder>I was thinking, the animated colors work on tracks, would it annoy people to have something in the ballist that uses those?
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>yes. definitely
18:46<KittenKoder>:p
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>imagine a hundred rail tiles on the screen, all blinking the same way synchronously
18:47<KittenKoder>Was thinking more of a pulsating thing along the maglev track.
18:48<KittenKoder>With the deep water color spectrum.
18:49<KittenKoder>What I may wind up doing is a complete sci-fi set for the future play.
18:49<KittenKoder>.... eventually, if I can keep interested in this.
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18:50<Eddi|zuHause>just don't end up like the guy who wanted to make "ottd 500 years in the future"
18:51<KittenKoder>o.O
18:51<KittenKoder>I said I may wind up doing it, just because I like making sci-fi things.
18:51<KittenKoder>It's not my goal.
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>he was like "i spent a year making up this elaborate plans, now you people need to code it" and opened like 10 threads, even demanding an own subforum
18:53<KittenKoder>That's just .... lame
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18:53<Eddi|zuHause>i leave it to your imagination to guess how many lines of actual code were written :p
18:54<KittenKoder>I was thinking though, on a side tracked note, it would be nice to have a more variable economy with something like FIRS.
18:54<burtybob>I might be over complicating things here but how does "setdparam" know which string I want parsed?
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18:55<Eddi|zuHause>burtybob: setdparam only pushes a value to the stack, the call to evaluate the string is done later
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19:01<Eddi|zuHause>burtybob: so if i have a string like "STR_WEIGHT_POWER :Weight:{WEIGHT} Power: {POWER}" i'd do "SetDParam(power); SetDParam(weight); DrawString(STR_WEIGHT_POWER)"
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>burtybob: since it's a stack, evaluation will be backwards
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>(at least i think so, i might be horribly wrong though)
19:04<burtybob>thanks
19:04<KittenKoder>Well, stacks are more dynamic now, though I don't know what language you are talking, most times you can access either way.
19:05<burtybob>I'm talking C++
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19:06<Eddi|zuHause>KittenKoder: this is the string/grammar system of openttd
19:06<KittenKoder>Then I don't know.
19:06<KittenKoder>:p
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19:07<Eddi|zuHause>and yes, strings, especially in translations with different word order, may do things like "Power: {1:POWER} Weight: {0:WEIGHT}" to access the items in different orders
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19:08<burtybob>That wouldn't be my worry. That's up to the translators to worry about word order ;)
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>(might be off about the syntax here)
19:09<burtybob>http://wiki.openttd.org/Strings the how to use there doesn't really make a lot of sense but does explain the usage :S
19:10<Endymion_Mallorn>Good evening. I'm using OpenTTD 1.1.1, and I'll be honest, I'm really new at the game. So I have a simple question: is there any form of intermodal transport incorporated in OpenTTD?
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19:11<Eddi|zuHause>Endymion_Mallorn: you can simulate intermodal transport with "transfer and leave empty" orders
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>it works only one-way though, so don't use this for passengers, mail or valuables
19:12<pjpe>what about transfer and take cargo
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>pjpe: that loads the same cargo you just unloaded, so it generally doesn't make any sense
19:13<pjpe>huh
19:13<burtybob>I've never made sense of that either
19:13<pjpe>did not know that
19:14<Endymion_Mallorn>Okay, so I can pick up, say, Wood, in a truck, transport it to a station, and bring it to the Sawmill by ship if the dock's coverage area includes the truck station where I dropped the Wood off?
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>Endymion_Mallorn: must be the same station (build with Ctrl pressed)
19:14<burtybob>Drat. He beat me to it ^^
19:15<Endymion_Mallorn>And I can build both the dock and the truck station with that command?
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>Endymion_Mallorn: the station sign must show both a truck and a ship icon
19:16<KittenKoder>If you use ctrl then it will open a menu of the stations you can connect it to.
19:16<Endymion_Mallorn>Ah, I just saw how to do it. Awesome. Thanks! That little trick is great.
19:17<Endymion_Mallorn>If I build that way, is it still impossible to have Passengers go from a bus to a ship?
19:17<burtybob>Yes
19:18<burtybob>As long as you do the transfer order on the bus to the bus stop that is linked to the dock
19:18*burtybob kicks compiler
19:18<Endymion_Mallorn>Excellent. Thank you for all your help. I'll probably be back later with even more questions.
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19:19<burtybob>Someone is always around and always willing to help :)
19:19<Eddi|zuHause>well, there is typically a very low usage time between like 4am and 8am :p
19:19<burtybob>What time zone?
19:19<burtybob>GMT?
19:21<lessthanthree>can't use 2cc train set with toyland? :(
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>the majority of people here are CE(S)T
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>lessthanthree: if the authors didn't want you to, there's nothing we can do.
19:23<lessthanthree>oh, i meant it more in a "I'm not sure, does anyone know?" sort of way.
19:24<pjpe>don't put on toy land you ninny
19:24<pjpe>i was joking
19:24<lessthanthree>haha
19:30<pjpe>i can't even connect to the server without freezing and dropping a few seconds later
19:34<@Terkhen>good night
19:38<burtybob>night
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20:19<KittenKoder>I so could have saved myself a ton of headaches doing this template thing first.
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20:38<lessthanthree>is it possible to change the max number of vehicles once a game is running
20:38<lessthanthree>*?
20:56<pjpe>ur sbhit is broke
20:58<lessthanthree>yeah i know.
20:59<pjpe>my company is going to dieee
21:02<lessthanthree>maybe ill kill it and restart from autosave
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22:25<KittenKoder>Work in progress, basically I finally got lining things up: http://rpgcn.com/backups/test.png
22:26<KittenKoder>^_^ My first GRF.
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22:36<KittenKoder>>.< .... and now everyone's asleep.
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---Logclosed Tue Aug 09 00:00:19 2011