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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-08-09

---Logopened Tue Aug 09 00:00:19 2011
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03:22<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:35<@peter1138> 08:35:37 up 11:38
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06:52<Eddi|zuHause>i think this is correct now:
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06:55<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: do you have a fenced-meadows-grf that works with original graphics?
06:57<@planetmaker>yes. The company land in ogfx+landscape is that
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>where can i find that grf?
06:58<@planetmaker>the same place as you find CETS
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07:10<Eddi|zuHause>hm... that's what i feared. you should not draw fences if near same-company rail tiles...
07:14<@planetmaker>I haven't tested that actually..
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>(or station)
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>and as a bonus maybe a tile with a diagonal fence (if at corner of rectangular area)
07:23<@planetmaker>why whould the company land then use a diagonal fence?
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>for beautification ;)
07:26<@planetmaker>I'm not sure that makes sense... it's draw then a 45° rotated rectangle inside a 2x2 area
07:27<@planetmaker>and why wouldn't fields have 90° corners?
07:27<@planetmaker>it's moderately easy to detect railtiles, though
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>i mean: just give the player a choice
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: and check the owner of the railtile?
07:29<@planetmaker>would IMHO not be needed. Fenced is fenced
07:29<@planetmaker>though... there are corner cases where it then would not show any fence
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07:35<Eddi|zuHause>i do think checking owner is necessary
07:37<@planetmaker>though it has the not so nice side-effect that they're also not shown when the rail has no fences..
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>but that's exactly what i'm trying to reach ;)
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>the fence should always face away from any company property
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>it makes no sense to show fences in the middle
07:40<@planetmaker>oh, it does
07:40<@planetmaker>fencing the rail makes still perfect sense towards this company land
07:40<@planetmaker>Might be a company-owned playground
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>let me rephrase that: it goes against my aesthetic sense
07:41<@planetmaker>as I tried to point out: I don't think it does that always
07:41<Markk>My current network, but DON'T open it in your browser (It might work in Safari, but not in Firefox):
07:41<Markk>Do you guys fancy it?
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>huge file is huge
07:42<Markk>Paint couldn't handle it.
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>(actually, it's rather small for a giant screenshot :p)
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but "not always" means "provide the option"
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>i have not played with water borders in ages
07:45<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: but it need not be an option for the player, but for the newgrf. And they can do that...
07:45<@planetmaker>or we'd limit the freedom of newgrf authors
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>are we still talking about the same thing?
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07:58<Eddi|zuHause>let's take an example: you see the two company-owned tiles on the right here?,%205.%20Mai%201988.png <- i'd like to replace those with grassy fields without fences. and the two fences a little further above that are rectangular but not quite touching each other with a diagonal fence.
08:03<@peter1138>that's to let the lawnmowers in
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09:42<Coke>Are the different types of industries available hardcoded in the sources or is it in some data files loaded when you start the game?
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09:43<Ammler>yes and possible
09:43<Ammler>(called newgrfs)
09:43<Coke>Ok. I'm trying to grep for the steel mill to see an example, but can't find it
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09:44<Coke>build_industry.h maybe?
09:44<Coke>ah, there we go
09:45<Coke>So, I was thinking about maybe extending buildable objects to include storage facilities for various cargo
09:45<Coke>Like, maybe you have a cargo supply depot in which you can put cargo. It accepts cargo and supplies cargo (if put in there) so you can build relay stations basically
09:45<Coke>I looked at the cargo destination patch, but that's not really what I'm after.
09:46<Coke>(or waiting hall for passengers where there is no city nearby, etc)
09:46<Coke>Is newgrfs widely supported/in use ?
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>stations do that
09:47<Coke>they do?
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>use "transfer and leave emtpy" orders to deliver to the station, and normal load orders to pick up
09:47<Coke>For any cargo?
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes, any cargo
09:48<Coke>thats even more generous than i expected
09:48<Coke>hmm. gonna try that out quickly
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>make sure your rating stays above 50% on those stations
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise you lose the cargo
09:49<Noxbru>really? that explains where my petrol went...
09:50<@planetmaker>my explanation then is: they then simply hire different transports...
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: that's fine, but you lose your partial transfer money
09:50<Coke>its not dropping on the station
09:51<Coke>says station accepts nothing and supplies nothing
09:51<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, yes, that's the contract penalty
09:51<Noxbru>Coke, make sure that the leave empty part of the order is added
09:51<@planetmaker>Coke, "transfer and leave empty"
09:51<@planetmaker>the station need not accept or supply anything
09:52<Coke>ah, transfer
09:52<@Alberth>Coke: 'transfer' means you are going to transport the cargo further later
09:52<Coke>yes saw it
09:52<Coke>i learned something new :)
09:53<Coke>thanks a lot for the lesson guys
09:53<Coke>im going to play now, hehe.
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13:35<@Alberth>what am I doing wrong in decoding this NFO line?
13:38<Hirundo>Were did you find that nfo?
13:38<@Alberth>in the mini-airport grf
13:38<@Alberth>ie not currently supported :)
13:39<Hirundo>varadjust (60) has bit 5 set, i.e. another variable follows
13:40<Hirundo>10 is an operator, not num-ranges
13:41<@Alberth>ah, /me is looking at the wrong page.
13:42<Hirundo>What the entire action2 does is adding 8 to register 00
13:42<Hirundo>and then returning 1
13:42<@Alberth>you don't have a act 2 nfo -> nml decoder, do you?
13:43<Hirundo>no, I don't
13:43<KittenKoder>Can fences and depots use 2cc?
13:43<Hirundo>Yexo has one, but AFAIK it's not released anywhere (yet)
13:43*Alberth ponders making one, doing another 40 of these is not fun
13:44<+glx>you could steal that from grf2html
13:44<Hirundo>KittenKoder: Not as far as I know, but I'll check for you
13:45<KittenKoder>I don't think fences do, but I want to make sure I didn't just color them wrong.
13:45<@Alberth>glx: good idea, perhaps grf2html can handle this already
13:45<+glx>it may not like the feature
13:46<Hirundo>KittenKoder: Nope, it's not possible
13:46<KittenKoder>Okay, thanks.
13:47<KittenKoder>In that case the fences are done ... though they aren't really fences. :p
13:47<KittenKoder>Barricades ..... a sci-fi type of barricade
13:48<KittenKoder>After I get all the basic stuff worked out I am going to learn parameter setting code so people can use the standard or no fences.
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13:49<@Alberth>glx: it doesn't, I get "Exception: Access violation" :)
13:53<KittenKoder>Depots can be "taller" right?
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13:55<KittenKoder>Or do players prefer the typical size?
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13:57<Eddi|zuHause>how tall do you want to make it?
13:57<KittenKoder>Just a little taller.
13:58<KittenKoder>I saw one that was almost twice as tall, but I didn't like it for other reasons.
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>one of the tram depots has electric gear on it that makes it taller
13:58<KittenKoder>That was the other one I didn't like. :p But because it didn't fit in the cities well for my eyes.
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>i use some tram tracks that replace also the depot
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>the default tram tracks are too narrow imho
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>and the default tram catenary is ugly
14:00<KittenKoder>I only use trams to prevent bus squishing.
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14:00<KittenKoder>The only reason I use passenger road vehicles at all is to appease the local authorities.
14:00<KittenKoder>I prefer trains.
14:01<KittenKoder>I love the look of maglev, just ... not the tracks or the default trains.
14:02<KittenKoder>The 2cc set has some nice ones.
14:03<KittenKoder>Wait, I don't think that's where they're from. >.<
14:03<KittenKoder>I can't remember.
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>does 2cc have maglevs at all?
14:04<pjpe>the shanghai maglev and the japanese one
14:05<KittenKoder>Chimera I think is one of them.
14:05<pjpe>that's a separate newgrf with the 2cc name
14:06<KittenKoder>I think the maglev speed is insane personally, but would like to see more variety in them.
14:17<frosch123>[19:49] <Alberth> glx: it doesn't, I get "Exception: Access violation" :) <- wow, it's that bad? :o
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>that must be a moron who wrote that piece :p
14:21<@Alberth>version 0.4, binary is of dec 2007, there might be a newer version :)
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14:21<frosch123>0.5.2 was the last one
14:22<@Alberth>could it choke on my 64bit system (binary is 32 bit)
14:22<frosch123>you need a 64 bit linux binary?
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14:23<@Alberth>when I build the program I was running 32 bit, in the meantime switched to 64 bit, so that may introduce extra limitations (though it should not, afaik_
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14:23<frosch123>debian 64bit
14:25<@Alberth>lol 'ldd' crashed :p
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>that's where the fun starts :p
14:26<frosch123>it works for me :p
14:26<@Alberth>segmentation fault ./grf2html -h :D
14:27<frosch123> <- aparently you have some different machine than me
14:30<@Alberth>hmm, pascal, who on earth uses that for writing real programs? :p
14:31<frosch123>delphi was the best compiler on windows from 1995 to 2002
14:31<frosch123>and also the best language
14:31<frosch123>though it really "was"
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>it suddenly declined...
14:32<frosch123>oh, and grf2html uses virtual constructors :)
14:36<@Alberth>right, no windres at my system and not in the packages as well. That ends this exercise.
14:42<frosch123>yeah, it's not easy to build :p
14:42<frosch123>i guess grf2html would be a ottd patch :)
14:42<frosch123>grf2html 2.0 that is
14:42<frosch123>though i never reached 1.0 :p
14:42<@Alberth>better make grf2nml :p
14:42<frosch123>yexo did that
14:43<@Alberth>so I heard
14:44<frosch123>well, but what i meant is viewing a grf2html like output inside ottd
14:45<frosch123>including the variable and register values of a particular callback run or so
14:45<@Alberth>add a html browser to ottd, and you're done :)
14:45<frosch123>reminds me of the matlab profiler
14:45<frosch123>that also creates a html
14:45<frosch123>actually the matlab profiler is really good
14:46<@Alberth>html is a quite useful format for outputting human-readable data
14:46<frosch123>though i have not used it in the past 3.5 years
14:47<@Alberth>you don't read or write html email? :p
14:47<@Alberth>or browsed the internets? :D
14:47<frosch123>matlab :)
14:47<frosch123>isn't the internet flash-based?
14:48<@Alberth>I mostly tried computations like sqrt(2) with matlab
14:48<@Alberth>unfortunately, it was not stable enough for that
14:48<frosch123>matlab sounds like the wrong program to compute sqrt(2) :)
14:49<@Alberth>a part of the internet believes flash should be used, but you can just ignore that part :p
14:49<@Alberth>I was testing stability of starting matlab ;)
14:50<@Alberth>but it's not so good in starting
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>i generally only read text-email
14:50*Alberth does too
14:51<@Alberth>with the nice side-effects that sometimes you get empty emails
14:51<@Alberth>or email with the word "text" as content :)
14:51*andythenorth should stop watching riots
14:52<@Alberth>reading RFCs is complicated :)
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: taking part in riots for a change? :)
14:52<@Alberth>or throw the TV out the window ?
14:52<andythenorth>riots are severely over-rated
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>boooring ;)
14:55<andythenorth>the riots are on my way to work so I had a bit of a look
14:56<andythenorth>one burnt out car, one smashed car, one torched and smouldering bin
14:56<andythenorth>but with good camera angles, you can make it look like the end of days
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>haha :p
14:58<@peter1138>i think the burning buildings were a little worse than that
15:00*andythenorth just got an iphone
15:00<andythenorth>it sucks
15:02<andythenorth>should we call in the army?
15:02<@Alberth>nuke the city
15:02<andythenorth>job done
15:03<andythenorth>anything being coded?
15:04<@Alberth>an advanced varaction2 decoder
15:04<@Alberth>I don't want to decode them by hand :p
15:05<andythenorth>you can't do it in your head?
15:06<frosch123>Alberth: if you give me the grf, i can also run it through grf2html and give you the output btw
15:06<andythenorth>grf2html is how I learnt lots of varaction 2 stuff
15:07<frosch123>andythenorth: but that was 2 or 3 years ago when grf2html was the sparcling star at the horizon :)
15:08<@Alberth>andythenorth: I have decided looong ago that computers are much better at numbers
15:09<andythenorth>how should NewHQs be implemented?
15:09<andythenorth>akin to new objects, houses, or industries?
15:09<andythenorth>they need acceptance and production
15:09<frosch123>cool, it gives access violation for me as well :)
15:10<@Alberth>frosch123: it might just be a bad grf
15:10<frosch123>well it outputs correctly until sprite #98
15:10<frosch123>it says 90%
15:10<@Alberth> the source
15:11<@Alberth>andythenorth: acceptance and production excludes newobjects, I think
15:11<@Alberth>an HQ looks more like a house to me, tbh
15:12<frosch123>so grf2html actually only fails on the last 10 sprites :)
15:13<andythenorth>Alberth: excludes *current* newobjects :P
15:14<@Alberth>frosch123: hmm, you may need the sprites too: the zip file in
15:14<@Alberth>andythenorth: I was more wondering how houses are different from industries :p
15:15<andythenorth>player can't fund them
15:15<andythenorth>no production code
15:15<andythenorth>the tiles are...similar
15:15<andythenorth>we need (1) HQ Airports (2) HQ to accept BEER
15:15<andythenorth>neither have a rational reason
15:15<andythenorth>but we should do more stuff because it's cool
15:16<@Alberth>you said the magic word :)
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15:18<Hirundo>Making HQ accept BEER is possible within current specs
15:18<@Alberth>andythenorth: a runway around the building would be cool :)
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15:18<Hirundo>You just need to put BEER in cargo slot 0
15:19<@Alberth>Hirundo: but the whole company will run at 20% only if you don't supply he HQ
15:20<@Alberth>ie a money-making multiplier :)
15:20<Hirundo>I wonder, how much stuff breaks if you change the pax/mail/goods cargos
15:21<SmatZ>not much
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15:21<SmatZ>you would just carry BEER instead of MAIL :)
15:21<@Alberth>SmatZ would like that :)
15:22<SmatZ> just a year ago :P
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15:33<frosch123>Alberth: <- grf2html output
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15:39<@Alberth>frosch123: looking good, you repaired grf2html?
15:40<frosch123>the access violation, yes
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15:41<@Alberth>will try to understand what it actually does tomorrow
15:41<@Alberth>good night
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16:29<@Terkhen>heh, I probably ignored that thread :P
16:29<@Terkhen>I did not know it was suggested already
16:29<@Terkhen>(besides IRC)
16:36<andythenorth>"when FIRS is done"
16:36<andythenorth>we can do rv-wagons :P
16:36*andythenorth is bored of riot reading + will play dice wars
16:40<@Terkhen>ask me again when summer ends, right now I barely can code the mechanic conversions that FIRS requires :P
16:40<andythenorth>FIRS will keep us busy long past then ;)
16:40<andythenorth>Terkhen: I can't even *read* nml yet :P
16:41<@Terkhen>you can start by checking simple vehicle code in OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles, or some of the meaningful examples on regression
16:41<@planetmaker>there's now even an even more meaningful examples folder
16:42<@Terkhen>oh, nice, nml moves fast :P
16:42<@planetmaker>in the nml repo
16:42<@planetmaker>yeah, hirundo is doing excellent and quick work
16:42<@Terkhen>indeed :)
16:42<@Terkhen>I suppose that once that you have your mind set to nfo is difficult to switch :P
16:43<@Terkhen>for me, nml turned a long list of vaguely understood separate parts of knowledge into a single thing
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16:43<@planetmaker>not sure... I wasn't an nfo wizard ever, but I found it easy to forget the meaning of all the numbers :-P
16:43<@planetmaker>yeah... that describes it quite well
16:44<@Terkhen>once that planetmaker ends with production code and I finish spritelayouts, the conversion should be more than 50% done
16:44<@Terkhen>the other "big" thing I can think of is fixing references to strings
16:45<@Terkhen>besides that... maybe better reorganization and further templating
16:45<@Terkhen>for example, ground spritesets and ground only spritelayouts could be defined only once in a common file
16:46<@Terkhen>am I missing anything big besides those three things?
16:46<@planetmaker>yes. I guestimate that about 33% of the industry templating is done (not industry tiles)
16:46<@planetmaker>maybe more
16:47<@planetmaker>but I have no overview of how far tiles are
16:47<@planetmaker>I tend to ignore it for now :-)
16:47<@Terkhen>all of the industries I have checked have a single industry tile
16:47<@Terkhen>they reuse it with different layouts
16:47*planetmaker knows at least one with two
16:47<@Terkhen>some of them use different industry tiles that are defined in a single file
16:47<@Terkhen>I guess that those industry tiles are common between different industries
16:47<@planetmaker>I guess so, too.
16:48<@Terkhen>since I'm fixing also industry layouts and relative_pos switches while I fix spritelayouts, industry tiles should be done too, unless some of them have some special code
16:48<@planetmaker>when the overall templating is done, I fear the resulting FIRS will need a thorough test
16:48<@planetmaker>I'd not bet my life that I don't do an occasional error which compiles but changes gameplay
16:49<@Terkhen> <--- the missing industrytile code are just nearby_tile_class switches and var 0x60 switches (which honestly I have no clue of what they do)
16:50<andythenorth>good luck testing that :P
16:50<andythenorth>I'll have to help :(
16:50<andythenorth>coop games :p
16:51<andythenorth>how about an automated testing server with logging?
16:51<andythenorth>for closures and other crap
16:51<andythenorth>how about teaching AIs to play it?
16:51<@Terkhen>first each of us should have a small testing game to filter the "big" mistakes, then a coop game
16:51<@Terkhen>stuff like no industry accepting livestock and so on :P
16:51<@Terkhen>creating an automated test might be more work than actually testing it :P
16:52<@planetmaker>it's part of the slope check for tiles whether it can be built, I guess
16:52<@Terkhen>I suppose that once I finish with spritelayouts I can check all "other industrytile code" and beautify it :)
16:52<@Terkhen>I'm going slow though, I find it complicated to concentrate on anything lately
16:52<@planetmaker>I've already version2 of the closure and availability code is use ;-)
16:53<@planetmaker>I'll have to check somewhen where v1 is still in use
16:53<@planetmaker>but it gets easy now that I can really in half the cases just replace all code by the templates
16:53<@planetmaker>only few things are not yet templated. Like clustering for primary
16:54<@planetmaker>oh... apropos, andythenorth: there are random cargo output for sawmill and recycling plant
16:54<@planetmaker>from nfo it seems that's intended...
16:54<andythenorth>sawmill no
16:54<andythenorth>recycling plant yes
16:54<@planetmaker>but funnily sawmill and recycling plant seemed to have shared that piece of code.
16:55<andythenorth>not intentionally :P
16:55<@planetmaker>ok, looked odd to me
16:55<@planetmaker>then you can somewhat undo r2272 I think
16:56<andythenorth>have you guys done any cb28 (location) or cb2f (tile location) templating yet?
16:57<@planetmaker>location for industries is templated, except primary clustering part
16:57*Terkhen checks cb2f
16:57<@planetmaker>and primary clustering is with a bit of luck the only industry template missing
16:58*planetmaker guesses the var 0x60 you talked earlier about ;-)
16:58<@Terkhen>I suppose that cb2f is in those nearby_tile_class switches and var 0x60
16:58<@Terkhen>I still have not checked that code
16:58<supermop>does nml do stations yet?
16:59<@Terkhen>I'll come back to it once that spritelayouts and industry tile layouts are done :)
16:59<@Terkhen>supermop: nope
16:59<@Terkhen>from what I have heard they are a tough bone :P
16:59*Terkhen looked at the specs of stations and did not understand a word of them
17:01<@planetmaker>supermop: nope
17:01*planetmaker is slow
17:01*planetmaker looked at sawmill code
17:02<supermop>i was thinking i should rewrite mlss in nml
17:02<Hirundo>planetmaker: I thought, you were playing your 'fake Terkhen' role of this afternoon again ;)
17:02<supermop>to make it easier for me to maintain and update
17:02<@planetmaker>didn't I?
17:02<@Terkhen>no, now I'm sleepy Terkhen :)
17:02<supermop>i should get a proper coder
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17:03<Hirundo>supermop: It's sortof figured out how stations are supposed to be done in NML, which was quite a large step already
17:05<Hirundo>It's currently on the list of 'big features that have to be done but take a lot of time'
17:05<Hirundo>Once on that list, progress tends to be slow :)
17:06<andythenorth>good night
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17:06<KittenKoder>I make stupid lights.
17:08<@Terkhen>good night from here too
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17:15<KittenKoder>I kinda like what I did with the fences.
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18:26<KittenKoder>I'm of the mind that several maglevs were made specifically for a track like this and not the default one.
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19:18<Eddi|zuHause>i think firefox has some extreme memory leak problem
19:19<Eddi|zuHause>i closed it, and it freed about 2GB of memory
19:26<Ammler>maybe it is some addon or plugin
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i have many addons
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>i don't usually use firefox, only for sites which make extensive use of flash, and this google spreadsheet thingy
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20:13<KittenKoder>Hmm, anyone interested in seeing the progress on my maglev track?
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20:14<Eddi|zuHause>anyone interested in metaquestions?
20:14<KittenKoder>I can be annoying, yes I can.
20:15<KittenKoder>Need a break from the work.
20:16<KittenKoder>The default maglev trains seem to be aligned differently than the others.
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20:20<pjpe>is there some way to use the opengfx cursor but normal graphics for everything else
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes. but it involves grfcodec
20:23<pjpe>i'm too used to the windows graphics
20:23<pjpe>just wish i could have the cursor and toyland
20:23<pjpe>god toy land is shit in the original
20:24<Eddi|zuHause>replacing just toyland should be easier
20:25<KittenKoder>Mars replacement with new vectors would be nice. :p
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>edit the original_windows.obg file, and replace the toyland file line with the one from opengfx.obg
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>save that under a different name
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22:31<pjpe>where are the sprites for the auto track cursor
22:31<pjpe>and the level land sprite?
22:31<pjpe>they don't seem to be in with the rest of the cursors
22:42<KittenKoder>I don't think I get your question, but the features were add-ons and they are probably in another image file.
22:44<KittenKoder>But in the openGFX 0.3.4 they are with the normal ones.
22:44<pjpe>and that complicates things
22:46<pjpe>was taking the lazy way out and just replacing the old cursor in the original file with the opengfx cursor
22:46<pjpe>now i might have to figure grfs out
22:47<KittenKoder>If you're just replacing sprites, it's not so tough.
22:47<KittenKoder>Use NML
22:48<pjpe>sonofabitch that's a good idea
22:48<pjpe>what about for online
22:48<KittenKoder>You mean multiplayer?
22:48<KittenKoder>I don't know anything about that aspect.
22:49<KittenKoder>I think some GRFs have no effect and others do ... but not sure what's what.
22:50<KittenKoder>Heh, found the development xcf for the trees.
22:50<KittenKoder>They cheated with the snow. >.<
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---Logclosed Wed Aug 10 00:00:22 2011