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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-08-10

---Logopened Wed Aug 10 00:00:22 2011
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02:35<@planetmaker>moin
02:39<@planetmaker>pjpe: you could most probably make a newgrf which just replaces those sprites
02:41<pjpe>but would it work in multiplayer on a server without it
02:41<@planetmaker>GUI sprites are "interesting" as some of them are in the "main" base set file, those which were not in the original TTD are in the "extra" one
02:42<@planetmaker>a newgrf only replacing gui sprites could be used as static newgrf, so yes
02:42<pjpe>huh
02:42<pjpe>well that would be easier
02:43<@planetmaker>they only can be activated by editing the cfg, though. There's no nice GUI interface for static grf config so far
02:47<@planetmaker>pjpe: you could checkout the antique opengfxGUI newgrf in the grfpack: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/grfpack/releases/LATEST/
02:47<@planetmaker>of course it replaces more than just the cursors, but it might give you the idea
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03:24<@Terkhen>good morning
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08:17<andythenorth>how can I svn up without it failing on existing files?
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08:18<andythenorth>specifically 'failed to add [yxz]
08:18<andythenorth> a versioned directory of the same name already exists
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>remove it.
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>make a new checkout
08:21<andythenorth>ta
08:21<andythenorth>that's the third time I'm trying to do that today
08:22<andythenorth>basically the connection stalls when I'm using co
08:22<andythenorth>and svn can't recover that :P
08:22<Ammler>you know, openttd is available as hg?
08:22<andythenorth>:)
08:22<andythenorth>this is a work thing
08:22<andythenorth>we're not allowed to use hg
08:23<Ammler>there is also hgsubversion
08:23<andythenorth>this is a good point
08:26<@Alberth>Ammler: but that also suffers if your connection is not reliable
08:27<Ammler>Alberth: only for commit
08:27<Ammler>well, push*
08:27<andythenorth>a more familar interface won't help my issue that svn can't get a coherent checkout?
08:28<@Alberth>Ammler: nope, also for creating a local copy, I tried hgsvn-ing the corsix-th svn repo and it failed
08:28<Ammler>I have no issues with svn.openttd.org
08:29<Ammler>oh, hgsvn != hgsubversion
08:30<@Alberth>my mistake, I mean hgsubversion, where you can give a svn url to hg
08:30<Ammler>and you need a svn connection to make "hg up"?
08:32<@Alberth>I was making a clone of the svn repo from scratch, which means pulling 2000+ revisions. Due to network(?) issues, hg lost track of progress, and decided to rollback to nothing :( I tried it 2 or 3 times
08:33<Ammler>Alberth: yes
08:33<Ammler>you should hg clone to a low rev
08:33<Ammler>and then pull
08:33<@Alberth>good idea, will try that
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10:01<Tom|cz>hi all
10:01<@Alberth>hi
10:01<Tom|cz>hmm I was browsing wiki and stuff and I want download dedicated server for OTTD but all I found was stable version and beta and nightly on web :-/
10:01<Tom|cz>nothing about dedicated server download
10:02<Tom|cz>can someone throw me a link ?
10:03<@Alberth>there are not enough dedicated servers to build dedicated binaries for them
10:03<@Alberth>you can either use a normal one, or build a dedicated version yourself
10:03<Tom|cz>:'( damn
10:04<@Alberth>you can use the normal version with -D you probably still need to install the display libs in that case
10:05<Tom|cz>I wanted to host it as my minecraft server on linux :D without any graphic or anything
10:05<@Alberth>-D will not open a window afaik
10:06<Tom|cz>ok I'll try
10:06<+glx>Alberth: but it still need display libs if exe is linked to them
10:06<Tom|cz>oh seems working just set up some stuf
10:06<Tom|cz>thanks
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10:07<@Alberth>glx: I mentioned that: "..still need to install the display libs in that case"
10:08<Tom|cz>seems there is no need ... or maybe it uses the librarys wich I used to host garry's mod server
10:09<@Alberth>Ammler: it still failed, but it did not rollback, so I could continue
10:09<@Alberth>Tom|cz: ldd openttd will tell you which libraries it uses
10:09<+glx>Tom|cz: you probably have sdl and x libs installed
10:10<Tom|cz>yea they were needed for Gmod :-/ that weirdness needed graphic library too
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11:28*andythenorth experiments with trial of new photoshop
11:28<andythenorth>expect swearing :P
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11:41<supermop>cs5?
11:41<supermop>or newer?
11:42<supermop>cs5 took me some getting used to but i am glad i switched
11:43<andythenorth>cs5
11:43<andythenorth>appears to be a little faster than CS 1
11:44<andythenorth>possibly due to being compatible with intel 64 bit, instead of running in a crazy big-endian-little-endian run time compatibility layer :P
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11:46<supermop>ooh
11:46<supermop>cs1?
11:46<supermop>big step up there
11:47<supermop>do you use anything else, or just photosho?
11:47<supermop>p
11:51<@Alberth>grfcodec and openttd quite likely :)
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13:02<Ammler>Alberth: yes, of course it fails like before...
13:02<Ammler>but you already found the advantage :-)
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13:19<LordAro>evenings
13:21<@Alberth>:)
13:22<@Alberth>good evening LordAro
13:22<LordAro>hai Alberth :)
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22732 /trunk/src/lang/ (latvian.txt romanian.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: latvian - 36 changes by dzhins
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: romanian - 30 changes by kkmic, tonny
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>turns out two frigates and a caravel are not enough to besiege a city.
13:52<__ln__>what about a bus?
13:53<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: when you say that i am immediately reminded of seadogs. but is it something like eve?
13:56<__ln__>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424
13:57<LordAro>heard that before, _verry_ clever people
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13:59<LordAro>will almost certainly end up in tesco, or homeless :L
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14:29<KittenKoder>Ouchy ....
14:30<__ln__>anyone from this channel been looting and vandalising lately?
14:32<andythenorth>not greatly
14:32<KittenKoder>Telepathically.
14:33<andythenorth>I had a look at the devastation resulting from riots
14:33<andythenorth>it wasn't
14:36*Rubidium just wonders how hard it is to arrest everyone; just surround the riot with loads of army personel with their lovely rifles
14:37<Rubidium>I guess the only problem is that they don't have enough bendy busses to ship them to some secure-ish location
14:38<Rubidium>and if they really have balls, tell them they're held on grounds of terrorism
14:38<__ln__>There might be some moral and legal restrictions against using the army against your own people.
14:43<andythenorth>we don't have the army on UK streets
14:43<andythenorth>not done
14:44*KittenKoder sends the US army to the UK streets.
14:44<KittenKoder>Now you do. ^_^
14:44<andythenorth>hmm
14:44<andythenorth>thanks a bundle
14:44<andythenorth>what are the army going to do? Shoot?
14:44<KittenKoder>Hmm .... don't know.
14:45<KittenKoder>I'm USian, I don't think that far ahead.
14:45<Rubidium>andythenorth: just those rubbery things
14:46<Rubidium>or the lovely tear gas or even sleeping gas ;)
14:46<andythenorth>ach
14:46<andythenorth>the police could use those
14:46<andythenorth>you don't need soldiers for that
14:46<KittenKoder>Your police could use guns.
14:46<andythenorth>still the problem of shooting people
14:46<__ln__>KittenKoder: Somebody could be hurt.
14:46<Rubidium>andythenorth: the police *could*, but then the police will have to 'live' with that image
14:47<__ln__>And the whole situation kind of escalated from the police shooting an innocent man, so shooting more people might not be the best way.
14:47<andythenorth>police shooting cause some serious constitutional and law & order problems
14:47<andythenorth>the government would lose consent from a significant proportion of uk population
14:47<KittenKoder>Police get a bum rap everywhere.
14:47<andythenorth>a significant minority would probably take to the streets in protest
14:47<Rubidium>therefor: declare war, declare them terrorist and use the army ;)
14:48<andythenorth>or just arrest them, using the police
14:48<andythenorth>it's not that big a deal
14:48*andythenorth says that
14:48<KittenKoder>LOL
14:48<andythenorth>if they come for my house, it's probably a bigger deal
14:48<KittenKoder>Brits are like sailors from Canada.
14:48<__ln__>Arrest them and let them go after 24 or 48 hours or whatever time someone can be kept arrested?
14:48<Rubidium>andythenorth: the 'problem' is that they need to quarantine the area and arrest everybody, not only those that are to slow to flee Bobby
14:49<Rubidium>if everybody is arrested, they can't do it the next night
14:50*KittenKoder ponders making the blockade fences more like real ones.
14:50<andythenorth>I think the police are kind of working on that 'arrest people' idea :P
14:50<andythenorth>it seems to have occurred to them
14:50<andythenorth>they're just a bit slow at running
14:50<KittenKoder>Yep, Canadian sailors, the whole lot. :p
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14:50<Rubidium>andythenorth: thus they should be boxing them in
14:51<andythenorth>they should give the cops bikes
14:51<KittenKoder>Time for a Hot Pocket.
14:51<andythenorth>a lot of the kids are on bikes
14:51<Rubidium>andythenorth: those get stolen
14:51<andythenorth>indeed
14:51<andythenorth>I live at the top of the hill from the riots
14:51<andythenorth>touch wood - riots rarely move up hill
14:52<Hirundo>I thought stealing bikes was a 0031 thingie...
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14:52<andythenorth>http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/aug2011/6/1/image-1-for-riots-in-bristol-monday-8th-august-gallery-590121611.jpg
14:52<andythenorth>^ my friends live on the rh-side of that picture
14:53<andythenorth>where the riot van is parked
14:53<andythenorth>we used to have an office there too
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14:58<KittenKoder>Weird .... I did the no level crossing flag in NML and it put wires on the track. >.<
14:59<Hirundo>read the docs more carefully
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15:03<Hirundo>KittenKoder: bitmask(RAILTYPE_FLAG_CATENARY, RAILTYPE_FLAG_NO_LEVEL_CROSSING) <- use bitmask
15:03<KittenKoder>OH!
15:04<KittenKoder>Wait, it doesn't show that in the example though.
15:04<Hirundo>doesn't it?
15:05<KittenKoder>railtype_flags: RAILTYPE_FLAG_CATANERY;
15:05<Hirundo>I thought I'd fixed that *checks*
15:05<KittenKoder>:p
15:05<Hirundo>where is that?
15:05<KittenKoder>On the doc page, one sec.
15:05<KittenKoder>http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/railtypes.html
15:06<KittenKoder>bitmask worked like a charm! TY!
15:06<KittenKoder>But the doc line is REALLY wrong to, the comment says it's no level crossing flag.
15:06<Hirundo>ah I see, I fixed it somewhere but not there :) my bad, will fix
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15:07<KittenKoder>Yeah, new maglev track .... no level crossings.
15:08<KittenKoder>300+ mph trains and cars driving across .... >.<
15:09<KittenKoder>Now ... time to remake the depots.
15:10<KittenKoder>Then I get to learn parameters!
15:14<KittenKoder>Inspiration for the depot finally hit!
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15:22<Wolf01>hello
15:22<__ln__>buonasera Wolf01
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15:27<KittenKoder>Blinking lights on depots ... good ... bad?
15:30<andythenorth>hmm
15:30<andythenorth>stupid time goes too fast
15:30<andythenorth>does game time work like UTC time in apps?
15:31<andythenorth>i.e. number of ticks since epoch?
15:31<andythenorth>when used in say, vehicle availability check, or vehicle aging check
15:31<andythenorth>or does it look at in-game calendar date
15:31<andythenorth>?
15:32<andythenorth>nvm
15:33<andythenorth>I wondered if we could just pretend the year had 730 days
15:33<andythenorth>but I would bet money that isn't going to work
15:33<Wolf01>daylength again?
15:33<andythenorth>yarp
15:34<andythenorth>is there something that increments a tick counter?
15:35<Wolf01>I made a patch which avoids the known economy problems
15:35<andythenorth>could we 'just' increment by 1 or 0 alternately, using a flip-flop type affair
15:35<__ln__>Wolf01: you should offer it to Obama
15:35<Wolf01>I must update it before doing that
15:36<andythenorth>you should offer it to the Euro zone
15:36<andythenorth>they'll probably accept it anyway
15:37<Wolf01>I don't care about world economy problems, in the next year we wouldn't have an economy anymore, so all problems will be automagically resolved
15:40<Wolf01>What about England instead? How much of what TV says is true? And how much TV don't say?
15:41<__ln__>Wolf01: they are having a fun time, 20:56 < __ln__> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424
15:43<Wolf01>nice
15:48<andythenorth>Wolf01: it's true
15:48<andythenorth>but somewhat over-rated
15:50<andythenorth>there is one serious incident
15:50<andythenorth>a number more dramatic incidents (dramatic on TV, with the right angle)
15:50<andythenorth>many more minor incidents
15:51<andythenorth>and a lot of idiots on twitter and other places politicking
15:51<Wolf01>as usual
15:51<andythenorth>the riots are an awesome talking point for everyone who is a victim of ideology
15:52<andythenorth>on one hand they are because we haven't hung enough people, and on the other they are because of the capitalist rich oppressor
15:52<andythenorth>and all sides (there are more than two) are 100% in their conviction
15:52<andythenorth>meanwhile a small number of kids are out having a great time nicking stuff
15:52<Prof_Frink>Well, there's an obvious solution. Hang the rich.
15:53<Hirundo>Rich people tend to object to that
15:54<andythenorth>the French did it
15:54<andythenorth>revolution is predicted
15:54<andythenorth>the underclass has apparently declared civil war upon society
15:54<Prof_Frink>Personally, I think it's a cover for the robots staging a coup on the lizard people.
15:55<andythenorth>Prof_Frink: you're explanation is probably more convincing than some of the others :P
15:55<andythenorth>there's a quote about suspecting conspiracy where fuckup would suffice ::
15:55<andythenorth>:P
15:55<andythenorth>I blame the BBC
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16:11<frosch123>hmm, firefox seems to be as multithreaded as ottd
16:11<+glx>it's theorically one thread/process per tab
16:12<frosch123>not this version
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16:12<frosch123>i have 6 tabs and it only takes 100%
16:13<frosch123>(of one core)
16:16<frosch123>maybe it's memory allocation is interlocking itself
16:18<@Alberth>or a js program is doing stupid things :)
16:18<frosch123>no, no, i am doing the stupid thing with trying to load the grf2html output of 6 ecs vectors at once :p
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds fun :p
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16:47<frosch123>while opera seems to only use one core as well, it performs a lot better
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16:59<frosch123>oh, now it tirggers the ulimit for too many files :p
17:03<KittenKoder>Okay, I need a bit of help.
17:04<KittenKoder>For NML, if you are setting up a parameter that allows the player to choose between your fence, default fence, or no fence .... I get the parameter stuff but where does the switch go and what syntax would it be?
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17:05<KittenKoder>I kind of get the switch syntax ....
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17:12<KittenKoder>Wait, actually, what I need are the default variables for depots and fences.
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17:18<Hirundo>What do you mean by "default variables"?
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17:20<KittenKoder>This switch thing is messing my head up. >.<
17:21<KittenKoder>I'm trying to think of a better way to explain it .... just a moment.
17:22<KittenKoder>How to make a switch that can be changed by a parameter so that something in the GRF does not replace something set before it, like depots.
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17:24<Hirundo>Have you ever worked with switches or callbacks before?
17:25<KittenKoder>Nope.
17:25<KittenKoder>Not for NML or GRF.
17:26<KittenKoder>For c/c++, Java, and Python yes.
17:28<Hirundo>well.. OpenTTD uses a callback mechanism to query a grf for various things, either to determine what sprites to show or for certain other values (for example, max speed of a train)
17:29<Hirundo>In such a callback you can use a switch-block to make a decision based on various variables/parameters, whatever
17:29<KittenKoder>Aaaah.
17:30<Hirundo>In this case, you'll probably want to switch based on the parameter setting, and choose between either your fence sprites, empty sprites (1x1 blue pixel), or CB_FAILED to use the default
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17:31<Hirundo>CB_FAILED is an explicit failure code, it causes the callback to abort without a return value
17:31<KittenKoder>So CB_FAILED is like saying "do what you would normally do"?
17:31<Hirundo>I assume in this case, yes (checking now)
17:34<KittenKoder>Aha, I figured out the depot setting.
17:36<KittenKoder>So fences would need a blank tile to disable.
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17:39<Hirundo>You'd need 8 1px * 1px transparent blue sprites
17:39<Hirundo>of course, using the same pixel 8 times works just fine
17:41<KittenKoder>:p Yep.
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17:43<KittenKoder>Last part, railtype_flags ....
17:43<KittenKoder>It won't let me use a switch on those and I've tried a lot of variations.
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17:46<Hirundo>railtype_flags is a property, not a callback, why would you want a switch on that?
17:46<KittenKoder>So there is no way to make a parameter that could change whether level crossings are allowed?
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17:50<Hirundo>there is, but not via a switch
17:50<KittenKoder>Okay, so where do I look?
17:50<Hirundo>The value of the railtype_flags property is a single expression that may also include parameter values
17:51<Wolf01>'night
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17:51<Hirundo>So you could do something like "railtype_flags: param_level_crossings ? bitmask(..) : bitmask(..);"
17:52<Hirundo>With of course the correct param and bits set, but I'm sure you'll figure that out :)
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17:52<KittenKoder>Aaah, the if-then expression syntax.
17:54<Hirundo>You can also do arithmetic and such (railtype_flags: param_abc * 42), but that probably doesn't make a lot of sense here
17:54<KittenKoder>That didn't work for me to.
17:55<KittenKoder>The if expression did though.
17:55<KittenKoder>^_^ I have my first GRF to actually let people try now.
17:55<KittenKoder>Just need a better name and description.
17:55<KittenKoder>Called it NeoMaglev Tracks .... kind of blech.
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17:58<Hirundo>goodnight
17:58<KittenKoder>night then.
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18:00<KittenKoder>Crap, GUI stuffs. >.<
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18:16<Sacro>Ammler: getting segfaults using Autopilot with CHPP
18:16<Sacro>any way to debug?
18:17<__ln__>Sacro: what about you, have you been looting and vandalising stuff?
18:18<Sacro>__ln__: nope, i'm staying well clear of it
18:18<__ln__>how boring
18:20<Sacro>oh, seems like it's an ubuntu bug
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18:26<Sacro>right,l forcing tclsh8.5 helped
18:26<Sacro>now getting spawn id exp6 not open
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18:35<Ammler>Sacro: does that mean, if you run it without ap, it works?
18:36<Ammler>what does secfault, ap or openttd
18:36<Sacro>it's adding things to the bind sectoin
18:36<Sacro>which causes it to shit itself
18:36<Sacro>Ammler: it's the package require Expect bug
18:36<Sacro>in 8.3 and 8.4
18:37<Ammler>bug?
18:37-!-Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:37<Sacro>https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tcl8.4/+bug/581607
18:37<Sacro>breaks autopilot
18:37<Ammler>well, ubuntu is one big bug :-P
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18:37<Sacro>s/tclsh/tclsh8.5/ did that
18:37<Sacro>by did i mean fixed
18:37<Sacro>and I can load a new game
18:37<Ammler>oh
18:37<Sacro>but when I load a new save, it can't bind :\
18:37-!-Progman [~progman@p57A199EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:38<Sacro>and then once I've loaded the save I can't start a new one without clearing the config
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18:38<Sacro>server_bind_addresses
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18:40<Ammler>I do not get, how that is related to ap
18:41<Ammler>I mean just test it without ap
18:41<Sacro>it's not, it's openttd :\
18:41<Ammler>openttd or chpp?
18:42<Sacro>chpp perhaps
18:42<Sacro>i don't have openttd
18:42<Ammler>else I am sure, devs would like to get a fs post about
18:42<Sacro>hmmm
18:42<Ammler>we run nightly and testing without any issues since years
18:42<Sacro>no, it's that kernel protection thingy whose name escapes me
18:43<Sacro>not ipsec...
18:43<Sacro>><
18:43<Ammler>ok, no clue :-)
18:44<Sacro>oh, that thing
18:44<Sacro>that helps keep servers secure
18:44*KittenKoder dances around
18:44<Sacro>SELINUX
18:44<Sacro>that one
18:45<Sacro>or something
18:45<Sacro>I can't figure out why it can't listen
18:45<Sacro>dbg: [net] getaddrinfo for hostname "/home/openttd/.openttd/save/SimSigMatt Transport, 20th Mar 1970.sav", port 3979, address family either IPv4 or IPv6 and socket type tcp failed: Name or service not known
18:46<Sacro>hmm
18:46<Sacro>do I need -g?
18:47<Ammler>no
18:47<Ammler>not with ap+
18:47<Ammler>but that looks quite strange, I would suspect the spaces
18:48<Ammler>anyway, would be coold, if you try to reproduce with nightly or testing and report to fs if it fails too
18:48<Ammler>(without ap+)
18:50<Sacro>Yeah, seemilny fixed it
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19:03<KittenKoder>NeoMaglev is done ....
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19:05<KittenKoder>That was pretty fun.
19:10<Sacro>right, the dedi is causing epic lag
19:10<KittenKoder>If people like it I will do more on it. But I do want to learn stations next.
19:16<@planetmaker>they're not yet implemented in NML (should you use that)
19:16<KittenKoder>>.<
19:16<KittenKoder>Pooh.
19:18<KittenKoder>Alright, movie then play OTTD.
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19:26<Sacro>sigh, get it working and mpeople complain that their machines are too slow to handle it
19:26<Sacro>life is fucking crap
19:27<KittenKoder>Sacro, a majority or computer users have 10 year old computers.
19:27-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
19:28<Sacro>KittenKoder: yep
19:28<Sacro>so now we return to it being hosted on an old laptop via a wifi connection...
19:28<KittenKoder>Upgrading computers as they come out is neither intelligent nor cost efficient.
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19:39<KittenKoder>Why come you don't have a tatoo?
19:47<lessthanthree>what's a good % level for train service interval?
19:50<KittenKoder>Anything above 50 is pretty good.
19:51<KittenKoder>Wait ... I misunderstood the question.
19:51<KittenKoder>It's better to use days for that.
19:51<lessthanthree>oh okay.
19:52<lessthanthree>and then the default 150 is okay?
19:52<KittenKoder>Normally, yeah.
19:52<KittenKoder>You can add an order for them to service after long stops.
19:53<KittenKoder>Such as waiting for a full load, then "go to depot for maintenance" then to the destination.
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---Logclosed Thu Aug 11 00:00:23 2011